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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Argentina's President Resigns; Pakistani Forces Kill 18 al Qaeda Escapees
Aired December 20, 2001 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, "NEWSNIGHT": Larry, thank you. Good evening again everyone. I'm just a wee bit afraid we're going to start a major league food fight tonight and I'm not looking forward to it one bit.
But one of the things we're going to look at is a piece of reporting that was filed by one of our competitors. This might get a little nasty over the next few days. I hope I'm wrong about that.
But right or wrong, one of the things our competitor does very, very well is to look at the reporting of other news organizations, and tonight we're going to take a look at piece of theirs.
The organization is FOX. The reporter is Geraldo Rivera. And the incident in question is fascinating at least and maybe, although there is some debate about this, maybe important. That's all coming up later.
Now, on to the news. British Marines have arrived at Bagram Air Base, the vanguard of the multi-national peacekeeping force in Afghanistan, amid Karzai who will lead Afghanistan at least for the short term takes power on Saturday.
More from the bin Laden tape now. Remember that? Both an outside translator hired by CNN and a Saudi dissident say the first translation missed the names of eight hijackers, and this chilling line, bin Laden saying he told followers "when you hear a breaking news announcement on the radio, kneel immediately and that means they hit the World Trade Center."
It comes to this, had to I guess. Kenneth Feinberg in charge of compensating the families of the September 11th victims announced a formula today to value a human life, $300,000 for a single person, as much as $3 million for top earners with large families.
And a very different story, a frightening story that has nothing to do with September 11th, but there have been deadly riots across Argentina. The President of the country has resigned and economic crisis has led to utter chaos there.
We have a lot of ground to cover tonight. A couple of guests of note, Michael Kinsley and Charles Krauthammer on what to do with John Walker. They have different opinions on this, but we promise, we do, no screaming matches. We don't do screaming here. Jason Bellini has the latest from Afghanistan tonight, young people and religion. And we were sort of bracing for e-mails because there was supposed to be a mystery guest.
Unfortunately or perhaps fortunately, I ran into him a minute or so ago. We'll talk to him anyway. He's a terrific guest. It will be fun.
And on the subject of e-mail, I'm a little embarrassed about this, but we got a staggering response last night after saying that I'd gotten a few nasty e-mails from viewers. Honestly, I was not fishing for compliments. I was trying to make a very simple point about civility.
In any case, hundreds of you wrote. Many of you said the nicest things. Thank you. The staff was not exactly sure which Aaron Brown you were talking about.
On we go, the usual way we whip around the globe, beginning with Walter Rodgers in Peshawar, Pakistan. Walter, a headline from you please.
WALTER RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron. Pakistani officials here say they killed three more al Qaeda escapees, bringing it to a total of 18 people killed as the al Qaeda escapees, the Arabs, flee the Tora Bora region.
The Pakistanis are now using helicopters. Their special forces and two Punjab residents to close the border to those Arabs, those al Qaeda fighters trying to flee the Tora Bora region, where the U.S. is trying to clean them out. There's almost a total lockdown in some parts of the northwest province. Aaron.
BROWN: Walter, thank you, back with you in just a moment. To the White House next, CNN's Major Garrett has the duty tonight. Major, a headline from you please.
MAJOR GARRETT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the President blocked the assets of two more suspected terrorist groups. One is accused of funneling information on nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons to Osama bin Laden. The other accused of using terrorist attacks in Kashmir to destabilize two key U.S. allies, India and Pakistan. Aaron.
BROWN: Major, thank you. Now to a place we've never gone before in the whip, Buenos Aires, Argentina. Big news developing there. Today CNN's Lucia Newman is there. Lucia, a headline please.
LUCIA NEWMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron. Well I'm speaking to you from outside of the Casa Rosada, Argentina's Presidential Palace, a palace which this evening no longer has a president in it.
Argentine leader Fernando De la Rua was forced to resign a few hours ago, following a popular uprising, violent protests and lootings in what was once one of the hemisphere's most prosperous nations. Aaron.
BROWN: Lucia, thank you. All of that coming up. Back to all of you. We begin with a tough decision that's facing the Pentagon tonight, whether to send hundreds of Marines potentially a whole lot deeper into harm's way.
As many as 500 Marines are waiting for a call to join Special Forces in Tora Bora. Their mission if it happens would be to search caves and chase al Qaeda fighters through the hills.
As those fighters stream across the border into Pakistan, many are being rounded up by the army and there have already been some violent confrontations.
We begin tonight back in Peshawar, Pakistan, with CNN's Walter Rodgers. Walter, good morning to you.
RODGERS: Hello, Aaron. There's a huge manhunt underway in the northwest frontier province, particularly the agencies of Khuram and Khyber. Of course, this is Kipling country, the famous Khyber Pass.
Those mountains you see behind me are the northern edge of the Khyber Pass. Out of that area and moving southward are where the al Qaeda escapees are trying to flee at this point.
They cross Khyber. They go into Khuram. This is an extremely wild, rugged area, nothing but tribe there, Orekis, Turis and Mengols. These are wild fighting people.
They usually fight amongst themselves. Shiite and Sunni Muslims trying to kill each other. The nearest town in there is Parachina. This particular area has been sealed off, largely by the Pakistani security forces. They brought in two regiments, two Punjab regiments.
There are at least Pakistani intelligence agencies at work at this point. Everyone here trying to track down the al Qaeda escapees, the Arabs who fought with Osama bin Laden fleeing the Tora Bora region of eastern Afghanistan.
They're trying to move south in that direction. Hopefully they think that they will be able to escape, perhaps flee to Karachi, a seaport. It's going to be very difficult because these Arabs from al Qaeda stand out like sore thumbs. They don't look like the natives here in Pakistan. They don't speak the same language and everyone here knows they're on the run and they are wanted men. Aaron.
BROWN: Walter, you've been both at Camp Rhino where the Marine base is and now in and around the Tora Bora area. How much different will it be for the Marines if, in fact, that is the mission they are given?
RODGERS: It's going to be as different as night and day. At Camp Rhino in the desert of Afghanistan to the south, the Marines had relatively comfortable conditions compared to what they're going to face in the Tora Bora Mountain region. At Camp Rhino near Kandahar, the U.S. Marines were living in fighting holes. They had a relative base. They had foxholes, fighting holes, bunker. They were relatively comfortable and it was fairly warm during the day.
When they go back up into those mountains, you're going to see alpine winter conditions. They're going up to levels of 4400 meters, that's 13,000 feet. They're going to be living up and down, just straight sheer faces.
It's like mountain climbing and backpacking at the same time with none of the comforts and all the misery of the near Himalayan winter. The Himalayas are not that far from here.
This is an extremely bitter area and the Marines will not have any of the luxuries that they had in terms of their light armored vehicles, because those vehicles don't go up and down mountains. Helicopters may be difficult to operate there too. Aaron.
BROWN: Walter, thank you. Walter Rodgers tonight begins it all. A moment ago, by the way, we showed you the first peacekeepers arriving in Afghanistan.
We also got a taste today of what's in store for them as they arrive. It happened this afternoon in Mazar-e Sharif. Someone threw a grenade into the central market place. As many as 100 people were hurt. No idea yet who did it or why.
At home now and a listen to the bin Laden tape again. You'll recall there was great concern last week when the tape came out about how it would go over in the Arab world so extraordinary care was paid to the translation. That's what we were told and we had no reason to doubt it.
But since then, we've learned something that may have been lost in the trip from Arabic to English. Two new translators have taken a crack at the tape, and what they have found is fascinating and makes an even stronger case, if that was necessary. More on this from CNN's David Ensor.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The tape is by now famous for showing Osama bin Laden bragging about the attacks of September 11th, what a Saudi dissident says and an independent translator hired by CNN confirms, is that the U.S. government left some significant parts of what bin Laden said out of its official translation into English.
ALI AL-AHMED, SAUDI INSTITUTE: The translators missed a lot of things on the tape. They missed the names of the hijackers, two of them mentioned by full names.
ENSOR: Bin Laden names two additional hijackers, the brothers Nawaf al-Hazmi and Salam al-Hazmi. Later he says that four of the hijackers were from the al Gomdi tribe and the name of two others, el Shehri. He names a total of nine of the hijackers, not just Mohammed Atta, as in the original transcript. Secondly, on the tape the visiting man, thought to be the crippled Saudi fighter, Khalid al-Harbi, talks of fatwas, edits from some Saudi clerics backing the September 11th attacks. He names Sheik Abdul Rahman al-Barak, a Saudi official, as issuing one of them.
U.S. translators used the name of Al-Barani, which is not a name used by Saudis in the majority Sunni Muslim sect.
AL-AHMED: You know if you want just to use a (UNINTELLIGIBLE). They didn't want to mess with the Saudi government, because al-Barak is a senior Saudi official, and he gave that fatwa.
ENSOR: One more striking example, precisely what bin Laden said to others just before hearing the first radio announcement that an attack he had planned had succeeded. "When you hear a breaking news announcement on the radio," he says he told followers, "kneel immediately, and that means they have hit the World Trade Center."
AL-AHMED: Again, the second plane hit. He knelt again to the ground and paid tributes to God for this, and you don't see that here. It's very important I think.
ENSOR: The information missed in the English translation does not change the overall image the tape presents of bin Laden, admitting with pride his role in the attacks.
That message, say Saudi officials, is crystal clear to native Arabic speakers.
ADEL AL JUBEIR, SAUDI FOREIGN POLICY ADVISER: The tape is very clear. It stands on its own. It's much more powerful in the Arabic language than it is in English because there's no translation, you get the nuance of it. You get the sheer horror of it.
The additional details paint, if anything a still more damaging picture of bin Laden, identifying nine of the hijackers and telling followers beforehand to get ready for the World Trade Center to be hit. David Ensor, CNN, Washington.
BROWN: The President today fired two more shots on the financial side of America's New War. He blocked the assets of two organizations believed to have links to al Qaeda. One group calls itself a charity. Both are accused of involving themselves in a bit less than the milk of human kindness.
Once again, CNN's Major Garrett on the White House Lawn. Major, good evening.
GARRETT: Good evening, Aaron, $66 million, that the amount of money the White House says used to transit between terrorist groups of global reach around the world and is no longer moving, frozen; $33 million of it frozen by the U.S. government directly, another $33 million of it frozen by coalition partners.
That's what the White House means when it says these shots fired in the financial war against terrorism are just as important as those fired on the battlefield. And as you said, two more groups added to that list by the President today in a ceremony at the Rose Garden where he was accompanied by the Treasury Secretary, Paul O'Neil, the President's lead point person on the fight financially against terrorism and Secretary of State Colin Powell.
A little bit about the two groups. One operates under the name UTN out of Pakistan. It also had an office in Kabul. Now this is a group the President said masquerades as a charity meant to provide hunger relief to Afghans, but is actually founded by a former member of the Pakistani Nuclear Operations Commission, and has funneled information on nuclear weapons, biological weapons, and chemical weapons to Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda.
Now UTN's offices in Kabul were recently seized by the U.S. government after the Taliban fled Kabul. And what was found there? Well, let me read to you directly from some information the White House provided.
Documents setting out a plan to kidnap a U.S. attache, and outlining basic nuclear physics related to nuclear weapons. Now who was the other, or what is the other organization? LET, also operating out of Pakistan. This group the White House says has been a part of terrorist activities in Kashmir, meant to destabilize not only India but Pakistan as well.
The U.S. government's effort to block these assets puts it four- square in the middle of India and Pakistan's long-running dispute over Kashmir, something that expands the list of credible terrorist targets the United States is now going to identify, and puts it alongside India and Pakistan as those two nuclear-armed nations try to deal with that long-running dispute over Kashmir.
Now the President also marked the 100 days since the atrocities on September 11th and in so doing, said he was optimistic about the course of the campaign thus far.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm optimistic about the future of our struggle against terror. I know we've accomplished a lot so far and we've got a lot more to do.
Over the past 100 days, we and our British allies and others in the coalition have destroyed at least 11 terrorist training camps inside Afghanistan, terrorist factories that produce thousands of trained operatives.
We've also destroyed 39 Taliban command and control sites. Senior al Qaeda and Taliban officials have been captured or killed.
GARRETT: Aaron, the President also said the humanitarian effort goes well in Afghanistan as does the effort to provide a new government for that war ravaged country. Aaron.
BROWN: Major, thank you. Major Garrett on the lawn of the White House tonight. Coming up next on NEWSNIGHT, the fate of John Walker. The President is trying to figure that out. Coming up, we'll get the perspective, perhaps some suggestions from two journalists, Michael Kinsley and Charles Krauthammer. We like to think of them both as friends of NEWSNIGHT. We continue in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The fate of John Walker now still unknown tonight and probably is going to stay unknown for a while. The White House today said there is nothing imminent from the President and it is the President who must eventually decide what charges Walker will face and in what sort of courtroom this case will be heard.
The President's father, however, did have a suggestion. The 41st President said in an interview, speaking of Walker now, "make him leave his hair the way it is and his face as dirty as it was and let him go wandering around the country, this country, and see what kind of sympathy he would get."
We haven't detected much sympathy from the notes we've been receiving. So what should the President do? What's the right thing to do with a 20-year-old who ends up fighting on the other side?
From Seattle, we're pleased to have with us again, Michael Kinsley the editor of Slate.com. And in Washington tonight, columnist Charles Krauthammer who's also a contributor to TIME Magazine. Good evening to both.
MICHAEL KINSLEY, EDITOR OF SLATE.COM: Good evening.
CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST, WASHINGTON POST: Good evening.
BROWN: Michael, why don't we lay out positions first. What should happen to Mr. Walker?
KINSLEY: Well, Aaron, I don't know. There are two story lines here and we don't know which one is closer to the truth. One is this young kid who becomes a religious fanatic, gets sucked into something way over his head, ends up over there, never actually points a gun at anybody, finds himself in this prison rebellion at the POW camp and runs into a basement, covers his head until it's over.
And the other one is someone who made a mature, conscious decision to go fight for the enemy, did actually fight. That's one of the many things we don't know. And, participated in this rebellion, which involved the death of a CIA man. But the facts, really interpretational questions, are still unknown.
In my opinion, even at one extreme, you might want to prosecute him for espionage, I suppose but the idea of executing him seems absurd.
BROWN: Charles, what should be do?
KRAUTHAMMER: Well the fact that he's 20 years old is no extenuation, I don't think. After all, the American soldiers that he and his friends were putting in big risk were about the same age, if not younger.
I think there's a very good case to be made that this man meets the Article 3, Section 3 requirements of the Constitution for Treason, which is adhering to the enemy, aiding and abetting.
And if that can be shown in a court of law, and I would put him on trial, and he's found guilty, I would sentence him to death for Treason, and then I would hope that the President would exercise clemency.
BROWN: Because? Clemency because?
KRAUTHAMMER: Because we are a forgiving nation. Because we're not blood thirsty, and because beneath this rough exterior, I have as soft a heart as Michael.
KINSLEY: Well, we're not going to get into that competition.
BROWN: I never doubted that. Michael.
KINSLEY: Oh well, some people have but I'm not one either. Let me address this question about 20-year-olds that are out there fighting on our side. Certainly they made a mature, responsible, noble choice and he made a stupid, ignoble choice.
But the parallel is really an emotional one, not a logical one. We draw the line of maturity in different places for different things.
Those same 20-year-olds who are fighting for our side over there and not allowed to buy a beer in this country because they're considered not mature enough. And it seems to me it's one thing to say you're mature enough to join the army and another thing to say you're mature enough to be executed for espionage.
BROWN: Well Michael, I mean honestly we're a country right now that sentences 13 and 14-year-olds to life without parole for things they've done.
KINSLEY: I'm not for that either.
BROWN: I know you're not for that. I'm not arguing that. I'm suggesting to you that the way the country tends to look at 20-year- olds or 18-year-olds is in a very adult way.
KRAUTHAMMER: But I would add, if I could Aaron.
BROWN: Yes.
KRAUTHAMMER: I mean, we're not convicting him of buying a beer in Kabul.
BROWN: No we are not.
KRAUTHAMMER: We'd be getting him for joining an army, and he did join an army, the Taliban army, and he joined it at a time after there had been the attack on the Cole, after the bombing of our embassies, and even if he'd never heard of that, he certainly heard of September 11th.
So on September 11th, he knew that the Taliban and al Qaeda where he trained were at war with the United States, and he made the considered decision to stay and to fight.
KINSLEY: Well, we don't know.
KRAUTHAMMER: I think it was Treason.
KINSLEY: We don't know.
KRAUTHAMMER: Unless you've got evidence he was held against his will, of which there appears to be none, and the way he speaks about it, of his pride, his love of the Taliban, he does not sound like a man who was on the frontline at the point of a gun behind him.
BROWN: Charles, you got the last word tonight. Michael, I'm sorry about that.
KINSLEY: And I had a devastating reply too.
BROWN: Well, I'm not surprised by that either, but we'll put the two of you together next week and we'll do it again.
KINSLEY: Thanks.
KRAUTHAMMER: But I had an even better rebuttal.
KINSLEY: Well, we'll do it offline.
BROWN: I'll put you guys on the phone together. Thank you both. Have a great New Year.
KRAUTHAMMER: Thank you, Aaron. Good to be with you.
BROWN: Thank you much. When we come back, a question of truth in journalism. We'll report on that controversy. Being NEWSNIGHT, of course, we'll leave it to you to decide.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: I spent a lot of time today in our office and on the phone with Atlanta, talking about whether to do this piece tonight at all. Believe me when I tell you, we do not take lightly looking at the work, a critical look at the work of a competitor.
In the end, we decided to do it for this reason. If it were any other news organization, including our own, we would do it. The Washington Post, the New York Times, CBS, NBC, ABC, we would do it.
But they are indirect competitors and this controversy is not about one of them.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice over): The competitor here is the FOX News Channel and they are very tough competition to be sure. They have been especially tough lately since they hired Geraldo Rivera to be their lead correspondent on the war.
GERALDO RIVERA: Under relentless pressure from American bombers, from the air and these freedom fighters from the ground.
BROWN: There is little question that his highly personal style can be fun and that his reporting skills have benefited FOX. But this controversy isn't about style and it's not about whether he carries or gun or doesn't.
It's about something far more basic and fundamental. It's about truthfulness and it's about this report that aired on FOX News on December 6th, the day after three Americans were killed in a friendly fire tragedy near Kandahar.
RIVERA: We walked over what I consider hallowed ground today. We walked over the spot where the friendly fire took so many of our men and the mujahideen yesterday.
It was just, the whole place just fried really and bits of uniforms and tattered clothing everywhere. I said The Lord's Prayer and really choked up. I could almost choke up relating the story to you right now.
BROWN: Twelve hours later, Rivera again described in great detail the incident and his strong and painfully emotional reaction to it.
RIVERA: Yesterday, we did walk over what I consider hallowed ground, yesterday my time, today, your time. That area where the friendly fire hit and it was, you know, it was just breathtaking.
It's just so awful. The whole area kind of vaporized, little tatters of uniform everywhere. It was the saddest place I've ever been in my life. I stopped and I said The Lord's Prayer. It's the warriors worst nightmare to be killed by friendly fire, to be killed by your own.
BROWN: It is now an undeniable fact that what Rivera described never happened. He was nowhere near the Kandahar tragedy he so vividly described.
He was hundreds of miles away in Tora Bora. But it took Baltimore Sun reporter, David Folkenflik to uncover that truth.
DAVID FOLKENFLIK, TELEVISION REPORTER, BALTIMORE SUN: How was he possibly there? And I thought that was just a very simple but very real question.
Geraldo had reported on December 5th and December 6th at night time in Afghanistan, both times from Tora Bora. That's got to be about 300 miles away from the site north of Kandahar, where the American servicemen were killed.
BROWN: Rivera now acknowledges his reporting, his detailed and emotional pieces were a mistake, an honest mistake he said, an understandable mistake caused by what he called the fog of war.
FOLKENFLIK: He said that he confused the event in Kandahar with another friendly fire incident in which American bombers, their raids, took Afghan opposition fighters' lives.
BROWN: Well perhaps unlikely, that is a plausible explanation for his detailed emotional piece, though as Folkenflik points out, the explanation would appear to raise additional questions.
FOLKENFLIK: That bombing raid in Tora Bora had not occurred and would not for another three days. And the key question that FOX News didn't answer and they haven't answered to this day is how one could be confused by an event that had not yet taken place?
BROWN: FOX refused three requests to talk about the incident on camera, but their PR person dictated this statement to CNN today.
"Geraldo admitted that he confused the two friendly fire incidents. This is not tailwind" the statement adds, referring to a widely criticized 1998 CNN report that was later retracted. The statement then goes on "David Folkenflik is trying to revive his story that was dead on arrival." Dead to some but not to others.
BOB STEELE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, THE POYNTER INSTITUTE: And I would hope that the public would understand that journalists should not be making up information, if that's what he did in this particular situation. They should not be fabricating details or scenes. They should not be saying they are someplace when they are not.
If journalists do that, individually or collectively, then it erodes and corrodes the credibility and integrity of our profession.
BROWN: Geraldo Rivera is a different kind of reporter, the kind not afraid to say with emotion whose side he is on, a throwback some say and not all bad.
JONAH GOLDBERG, "NATIONAL REVIEW.COM:" I would hate for the first -- that for the first time we're actually seeing some actually good old-fashioned American journalism of the old tradition to get thrown out with the bathwater because Geraldo made an obviously stupid mistake.
BROWN: And that is the key question. Was it just a mistake? A mistake caused by the fog of war, as Rivera claims, or was it something else? An attempt to endear himself to viewers, to manipulate his audience by reporting with passion, detail and power a moment that never occurred?
(END VIDEO TAPE)
BROWN: It cuts right to the heart of what we do in this business, so we need to spend a little more time on it. Joining us from Washington, David Folkenflik, you met him a moment ago in the piece. He broke the story for his paper, the "Baltimore Sun." Also in Washington, Howard Kurtz, media reporter for the "Washington post" newspaper and also for CNN. We're also pleased to have with us Jonah Goldberg. He, too, now -- we can say -- is a CNN contributor and an editor at "National Review". It's nice to have all of you here in a mildly uncomfortable position.
Howie, we haven't heard from you at all yet on this. So give me your take. Is this a mountain out of a mole hill?
HOWARD KURTZ, "WASHINGTON POST" MEDIA REPORTER: Well, I've got plenty to criticize about Geraldo Rivera's performance in Afghanistan. If you've got an hour and a half, I'd be happy to detail that.
But I'm inclined to cut him a little slack on this incident. I don't believe that Geraldo Rivera -- who is not a dumb guy -- would completely out of a whole cloth fabricate and make something up just to make him look even more colorful and at the center of things than he already is.
I am willing to accept that he made a mistake and confusing two incidents. I understand there are questions about what he did or did not witness.
But after all, the whole world had reported that he -- the incident that everyone thought he was referring to -- was hundreds of miles away in Kandahar. So he can't have consciously thought that he was going to get away with claiming he was somewhere that he was not. So I'm willing to cut him a little bit of slack. He is -- he was, at least, risking his life out there along with a bunch of other journalists.
BROWN: And that -- the last part of that is an absolutely fair point. It is -- it is tough and miserable work out there. And I'm always -- I always want to be a little careful about this because of that.
So, one of the things that Fox has said -- and this story has gotten picked up a bit since David wrote it -- is that this is just piling on Fox, because they're balanced and the rest of the media is liberal.
KURTZ: I don't think it's piling on Fox. I do think it's piling on Geraldo. And that is not -- doesn't come as any great surprise. The thing about Geraldo as this war correspondent is that it's always about him.
You see Geraldo crawling into a cave. You see Geraldo talking about plans about (UNINTELLIGIBLE). You see Geraldo saying he's out for revenge and walking the hallowed ground.
So if some other reporter whose name was far less prominent had made this kind of mistake, I don't think it would have gotten more than three paragraphs in a newspaper. But Geraldo is a bona fide star and therefore, understandably, there's more scrutiny on him and I think it's legitimate to report that he did make a mistake. BROWN: Jonah, you had some interesting things to say about -- when we talked to you earlier about on the kind of reporting that's been going on and how you feel about it. Let me get your take first on this question of whether this seems to piling on Fox. Then let's talk about other the questions, too.
GOLDBERG: Well, I don't know see how it's piling on Fox. Geraldo has only been at network for what, a month or so? You know, and Geraldo has a brilliant track record in figuring out ways to maximize all the potential ways he can make himself look like an ass in almost every conceivable context. And now he's taking that show into the Far East.
So it doesn't surprise me that he's getting himself in trouble again, because this is the same guy who had his personal assistant go fetch pot for him with a company courier when he was at ABC.
My point about all of this is that I don't think it is fair to take this too closely against Fox. I actually welcome -- you know, I'm a CNN guy now -- I welcome a lot of the kind of journalism that Fox has been doing and I think it's -- it's good for the country and it's good -- it's good particularly for journalism, because what I would hate to see is for all of a sudden a lot of the Columbia Journalism School priesthood just go around saying that this is really a problem with -- with patriotic -- you know, with journalism showing their patriotic colors at all, with journalists showing their patriotic colors at all.
You know, in World War II we had journalists who fought -- who reported while wearing American uniforms. And today we have these unbelievably esoteric, how-many-angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin arguments about whether or not a journalist should wear an American flag on his lapel.
Ernie Pyle, the most famous journalist in World War II, wrote blisteringly pro-American reportage. And I -- that's the one thing I like about what Geraldo is doing over there, is that he's not -- he's not afraid to say that he's rooting for the good guys in this. And you don't see that a lot.
And I would hate to see that sort of sentiment being thrown out just because Geraldo has done something which may be just simply a mistake or maybe something a lot worse.
BROWN: Jonah, let me go to David here. We haven't heard from him yet. I'm curious. You've been in -- kind of in the media mill here for a while. What's your take on this? Do you have any second thoughts about the way you reported this story? And what do you think actually happened, by the way?
DAVID FOLKENFLIK, "BALTIMORE SUN" MEDIA CRITIC: Well, in various order I would say this. I'd first say that what Howard says about the difficulty of reporting war is very real. Colleagues of his and colleagues of mine have done some extremely difficult reporting under extremely difficult conditions, at time putting their own lives in peril. That's not to be dismissed. However, I wouldn't be so blithe about putting aside this particular episode. I think in some ways it's very much at the crux of what we do when we cover the media. It may prove to be a footnote to the coverage of the war, but it's -- it's worth looking at.
You're talking about an instance in which a reporter invokes the Lord's Prayer, invokes dead American soldiers in a major conflict that has obviously for important reasons consumed public's attention. It's not clear that there is a credible genesis for the story. If there is one, it would be good for Fox to offer that. So far, it hasn't been -- offered. And I think that, you know, for any news organization, whether offering the bravado of sort of a spirited, opinionated reporting or not, the credibility is very much a part of what we do.
BROWN: And take a second to tell me a bit about your conversations with Rivera, because -- or conversations, I'm not sure if there's more than one -- how that went and your dealings with the Fox news channel on this.
FOLKENFLIK: Well, Rivera was extremely heated when we talked. He called me by satellite phone from Tora Bora on Tuesday morning of last week. And a -- sort of a flame of vitriol came over the phone over many thousands of miles.
I mean, he was very upset. He basically was saying -- the gist of it was, "how dare you question my credibilty. I have been in many hot spots across the world. I put my life in peril all the time." And you know, "I won't really be questioned by people like you. You're trying to kill me," was one of the things he said.
I merely said to him, "look, I'd like to ask you about this episode and I'd like to talk to you about your approach and how you report generally." I think those are perfectly valid questions to ask. And when you're...
BROWN: I'm sorry. Let me -- I've got 30 seconds left. I want to finish this with -- with Howard Kurtz, if I may. Howie, if -- if the shoe were on the other foot, if this was a CNN guy that was at the center of this, do you believe that the Fox News channel would report on this?
KURTZ: I believe that the Fox News channel would report on it about 17 times a day. And that's all right. Fox is there as an alternative to other networks. They are very aggressive in doing media criticism. I think CNN certainly flagellated itself over the famous Tailwind mistake.
And I think it's all right to raise these questions about Geraldo Rivera. I don't think it tells you that much about Fox news. Geraldo was a newly-arrived liberal over at a network with a lot of conservatives. But I don't think you need to feel defensive about raising it. And welcome to the media criticism game.
BROWN: Thank you. I'm not sure how comfortable I am being in it. Thank you. It's nice to talk to all of you. Jonah, again, welcome to CNN. Thank you very much. GOLDBERG: Goodbye.
BROWN: Coming up next on NEWSNIGHT, a state of siege in Argentina. One of those stories that got lost in the last few days, but no longer. We're right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: There is a remarkable drama -- a pretty scary one -- playing out in Argentina. This is a story that's been gathering force for a while, but hasn't been on the front pages at all because of the coverage of the war. We suspect that will change tomorrow.
The president of Argentina has resigned. He resigned today after declaring a state of siege in the country. There was rioting across much of it -- deadly riots.
At the base of this is an economic crisis that has brought the financial system in Argentina to the brink of collapse. CNN's Lucia Newman is in Buenos Aires with the latest. Lucia, good evening.
LUCIA NEWMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron. Indeed, Argentina tonight no longer has a president; the culmination of months and months of economic despair and near ruin in this country.
Behind me you can see the presidential palace, the Pink House, or la Casa Rosada. And there are people out here now who are celebrating the resignation of their president.
But indeed, there is really very little, Aaron, to celebrate in this country. A country which is very, very rapidly edging towards the world's biggest-ever debt default. A country which is in economic ruin. Unemployment in this nation is now running at 20 percent. More -- or nearly half of the people of this country are now living below the poverty line.
And Aaron, this used to be the most prosperous nation in Latin America. The final straw started two days ago when hundreds -- or indeed, tens of thousands of Argentines took to the streets and started looting supermarkets and warehouses; hungry Argentines who said that they were tired of waiting for the government to help them, so it was time for them to help themselves.
This was followed by widespread rioting all over the capital. The situation was totally under control (sic), even after President de la Rua declared a state of seige to try to bring order to the country. In fact, some 20 people were killed just today in clashes with police, some of them in this very plaza that you see behind me.
So the country now is relatively calm, but there is a great deal of uncertainty. No one is really sure what's going to happen next, because the only thing that people do know is that nobody has a magic wand or a magic formula to take this country out of the economic and now the political crisis that it's in. Aaron.
BROWN: Lucia, thanks. Lucia Newman who is in Buenos Aires, Argentina tonight and the deteriorating situation there. Thank you very much.
Coming up next on NEWSNIGHT -- well, it isn't what it was supposed to be, is it? It was supposed to be the mystery guest, but it's not. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: My dear friend and producer David Borman (ph) just said in my ear, "I am so depressed." He's so depressed that his mystery guest for the week was discovered inadvertently. The guest got here early and I was running a little late and I ran into him in the green room and so now he's here and I've had some time to think about it.
In any case, I'm delighted Anthony Bourdain is here. Many of you have perhaps read his first book "Kitchen Confidential." It caused quite a sensation in kitchens around New York and around the country. It is a wonderful read.
He is now out with "A Cook's Tour: a Global Search for a Perfect Meal." The other book's out in paperback. I don't feel bad about saying that. And I actually met you indirectly in my other life at ABC on a "Nightline" piece that we did. It's nice to see you.
Now that I've had time to think about it, I have no idea what to ask, which just goes to show you.
What -- if people -- fill in this blank. If people knew this about restaurants, they'd eat at home.
ANTHONY BOURDAIN, EXECUTIVE CHEF, BRASSERIE LES HALLES: How much better food can be at home and particularly as I guess I've discovered over the last year, how good food can be in -- in cultures where there is, you know, tough times, not a lot of money, limited refrigeration. Mexico and Vietnam, for instance.
if anything, it inspired me to -- well, maybe to yearn for home cooking a little more. I visit a lot of cultures on this sort of around the world quest for culinary kicks and thrills. You know, a lot of it was lurid. But I think the most affecting stuff was, you know, sitting down at a Mexican table where it takes nine hours to make dinner.
BROWN: You've become a kind of big-deal author these days and doing television this and that. Are you in the kitchen at all at the restaurant anymore?
BOURDAIN: I keep comparing self to, you know, Joe Lewis after retirement. You know, more (UNINTELLIGIBLE) kind of a casino greeter, a spiritual leader. No, I'm really pretty useless around the restaurant now.
BROWN: And do you miss it at all? Or is it just...
It's really hard and really hot and really crazy in those kitchen. And they're not -- in New York, at least -- not very big. BOURDAIN: You know, if you ask most chefs what -- what are things you hate about the business and then you ask them what do you love about the business, you'll -- you'll frequently get the same answer.
I mean, I miss the pace and the language and the camaraderie and the madness, the adrenaline. So yeah, I miss it. I hang out there whenever I can, but...
BROWN: But not -- not so much anymore?
BOURDAIN: Well, I've caught a nice wave here and I'm doing my best to hang on to my surfboard.
BROWN: I asked you in the "Nightline" piece, I don't think there was a shot of you where you weren't smoking. I ask you if you're still chain smoking? What's the answer?
BOURDAIN: Yes.
BROWN: Yeah.
BOURDAIN: It's good. We'll do a Food Network first, a cooking show with a chainsmoking host. I'm really kind of proud of that.
BROWN: What stops most of us from being able to cook a meal as well as it's cooked in a restaurant at home? What don't we do right?
ATNHONY: I think we're lazy. I think it's just -- it's that simple. And I think our code -- we're -- we're a prosperous nation and a hard-working nation.
That separates us from -- from a lot of cultures where most communication, most social life centers around the table. It's -- it's different here. Women's roles are different in this country than in, say, Morocco or Vietnam. That's -- that's changed the world, you know, for better and for worse in some ways.
BROWN: I thought you were going to say we don't use enough butter.
BOURDAIN: That's always a good answer to almost everything.
BROWN: And do I have need a stove that's set at 15,000 BTUs or can I cook a great meal with a -- on a hot plate?
BOURDAIN: You know, I'd be lying if I said you could cook a great meal -- as good a meal at home. I almost never cook at home. I send out for pizza and Chinese food because I'm frustrated by home equipment. And I like to have someone around to mop my brow and clean up after me.
BROWN: Why do you think people go to restaurants these days?
BOURDAIN: It's escapism. It's -- there's an element of show business. I think if anything -- you know, the ambience, the context, the music, the lighting, is all -- the service is all very important.
But I think clearly Americans are more interested in food than at any time, you know, in a century at least, and certainly more likely to get a good meal in restaurant than at any time in American history.
BROWN: Can I tell you a thing that annoys me about restaurants? And I actually don't think it applies to you. But have you been to one of those restaurants -- and I know the answer is yes, you have -- where there'll be like 47 ingredients that are part of it, of the meal. And you can't -- it's like a steak, and then it's arugula and portabello and it just keeps going on...
BOURDAIN: And the waiter recites all of it.
BROWN: ...with a chocolate almond on top. Is that phase of food over?
BOURDAIN: I hope so. I really hope so. That's just dreadful and painful to endure at a restaurant. You know, I don't want to hear my waiter's astrological sign, either, and I'd like -- I don't want to know everything that goes in. I believe the best food is simple food. And -- and in fact the closest I came to a perfect meal was probably those simple, you know, moments.
BROWN: Is the special actually special or something you get a good price on?
BOURDAIN: The special most often is -- is the chef's best shot. That's not -- you know, Sunday, Mondays, in a less responsible joint they're looking to unload. But no. I think particularly now, the -- the chef just get bored with the regular menu and this is their time to shine when they put together a special. They're proud of it.
BROWN: Hollandaise sauce in a restaurant?
BOURDAIN: I mean, I called it a -- sort of a social club for bacteria. Yeah, I hate the stuff. I just hate the whole idea of brunch in general, so whenever I can I slam it.
BROWN: Nice to meet you. I'm sorry there was no mystery.
BOURDAIN: Good to be back.
BROWN: Come back and see us again.
BOURDAIN: Thanks.
BROWN: Thank you. Anthony Bourdain.
Kids in Afghanistan. Jason Bellini in a moment. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Finally from us tonight, something we've been doing all week: Jason Bellini's work about young people in Afghanistan, produced along with MTV News.
Tonight Jason looks at religion. Americans have gotten a crash course in Islam since September 11th. And we in the West have seemed to really need the help in understanding it.
We've heard so many voices from the Muslim world, people explaining what their religion means and doesn't mean. We haven't heard too many young voices. And some kids in the United States wanted that to change.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now that the taliban aren't making people pray or practice religion in their way, how will young people in Afghanistan choose to practice religion?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In our daily life we pray five times a day.
JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What do you ask of god?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What we pray and we say to our country will be give peace. And also we read the holy Koran at five o'clock in the morning.
BELLINI: Do all teenagers get up early and read the Koran?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
BELLINI: Do you like to do that, or is it because your parents tell you you have to?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, that's -- I have to.
BELLINI: Do you want to?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I want.
BELLINI: It's not because your parents say you must do this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
BELLINI: No?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
BELLINI: Most young Afghans are very religious. They take their religion seriously. They don't just do it because they have to.
One interesting experience I had. I went to a movie theater. At the theater, just before the movie started, a fight broke out. I didn't know what was going on so I asked my translator and he told me that someone there in the theater was trying to eat popcorn or eat something.
And that's not allowed because it was Ramadan, so you have to fast during the day. So a fight broke out because everyone else didn't want that person to be eating.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is jihad, because I think lot of Americans lose track of what the true definition is, and whether the acts on September 11th would constitute acts of jihad?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jihad is fighting between Muslim people and against Muslim people.
BELLINI: People who are against the Muslim religion. OK. The attacks on America on September 11th, was that jihad?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, that wasn't jihad, because they are also people, they also have any hopes, any wish.
BELLINI: The people who died have hopes and wishes?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Islam will not accept this action. Islam didn't say for Muslims to kill other people for the sake of your religion.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering if after September 11th the religious beliefs of the young people in Afghanistan have changed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. Why we change our religion? For Osama's action? Because he has responsibility for terrorist attack on world trade center? We are ashamed because he -- he is Muslim. He do this action.
BELLINI: You're ashamed?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. We are very ashamed. He is Muslim and he do by the name of Islam this action. He is very happy to have killed 6,000 people. Why he killed?
(END VIDEO TAPE)
BROWN: Jason Bellini's work in Afghanistan in conjunction with MTV News.
A quick note on e-mails. Send them. We enjoy getting them. The address is NEWSNIGHT@CNN.com. We're trying to figure out a way to read some of them or get some of them on the air. And it shouldn't be as complicated as we're making it. But boy, is that true of so many other things, too.
We'll see you tomorrow at 10:00. Good night from all of us at NEWSNIGHT.
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