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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Bin Laden on New Tape: 'Blessed Terror'
Aired December 26, 2001 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening and welcome to NEWSNIGHT. I'm Wolf Blitzer in for Aaron Brown tonight.
It's all in the timing. To say that's a cliche would be a colossal understatement, but you can imagine that's been going through the minds of U.S. war chiefs as they looked and we looked at part of a videotape that emerged today from Osama bin Laden.
Where is bin Laden? A constant refrain in newspapers for weeks, and the hunt has gone colder than a blizzard in my hometown of Buffalo.
So this could be a clue in trying to figure out when we knew for a fact when bin Laden was alive, because we don't know for sure he is still alive. But this is a clue that on first look only adds more mystery.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER (voice over): Bin Laden himself seems to date the tape to mid-December. At another point though, he suggested it may have been made in November.
India's Prime Minister has said you can change your friends. You can't change your neighbors. Scary when the neighbors have nuclear weapons. Today, Secretary of State Colin Powell spoke with the leaders of India and Pakistan twice, as the threat of war intensified.
And at Ground Zero, more remains found on the day after Christmas, and one blessing, the number of dead dropped again to 2,940, a mixed blessing to say the least.
Our reporters are covering these stories from around the globe. From Washington, David Ensor on the bin Laden tape. We got a glimpse of that tape earlier today. The rest is due out tomorrow.
Nic Robertson from Jalalabad, Afghanistan, the latest on the hunt for the world's most wanted, most elusive man.
And from Susan Candiotti in Miami, on the man who's come to be known at the shoe bomber, how this mosque may connect him to a September 11th suspect; all that to come.
We begin now with the videotape. It's another look at bin Laden, another chance to see what motivates him, and like the rest of the tapes we've seen so far, it's another puzzle to solve. Here's CNN's National Security Correspondent, David Ensor.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice over): On the tape, received Tuesday in Gudder from Pakistan, according to Al-Jazeera Television, bin Laden can be seen in his usual garb, Kalashnikov close to hand, defending his groups' terrorist attacks.
OSAMA BIN LADEN (through translator): They condemn terror. We say our terror against American is blessed terror, in order to put an end to suppression.
ENSOR: U.S. officials say to them, bin Laden looks pasty on the tape, as compared with previous appearances, as if he hadn't had much sleep, hadn't been out in the sun in days, and was under stress.
SAMUEL BERGER, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: This is a bit of an act of defiance, in issuing this tape basically saying, you know, "I'm still here even if it's only on videotape."
ENSOR: The statement appears to have been recorded in late November, for distribution around December 11th, officials say.
BIN LADEN (through translator): After three months since the attacks, the blessed attacks that took place against the head of the snake, the United States, and after two months since the crusader campaign started against Islam, we would like to speak on some of the implications of those incidents.
ENSOR: Al-Jazeera Television released only a fragment of what it says is a 34-minute tape of bin Laden, which it will release Thursday. The tape is clearly designed to influence opinion in the Muslim world. Too late, say some analysts.
EDWARD WALKER, MIDDLE EAST INSTITUTE: This is a man who's been discredited in the region. The people in Afghanistan think he brought a great deal of pain, suffering, and anguish to Afghanistan, and that indeed this is a guy who doesn't represent them, doesn't represent the Palestinians, doesn't represent Islam. They no longer have any sense of identity with him and he's a loser.
ENSOR (on camera): U.S. officials say they are underwhelmed by the tape. "Just more of the usual anti-Western rhetoric," said one official. And it offers no new insights as to whether bin Laden is still alive or not, and if so, where.
Still U.S. intelligence will be watching closely, looking for clues when the full tape is broadcast. David Ensor, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: They will be watching in Washington, and they'll be searching in Afghanistan. A bit of a change of plans though, when it comes to who will do the looking. Who goes cave-to-caves in the hills around Tora Bora?
The Pentagon today said marines won't be in that piece of the hunt, at least not for now. CNN's Nic Robertson's following that and the rest of the day's news from Afghanistan. He joins us tonight, live from Jalalabad, where it's already Thursday. Nic.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, it's the U.S. Special Forces that have been doing all the searching in Tora Bora up to now, and they were seen earlier on Wednesday, on the mountainside on all terrain vehicles, those 4-wheel motorbike type vehicles that give you good access in the mountains. And that's exactly what they're going to need.
So far, they appear to have gone cave-to-cave in the caves on the lower slopes of Tora Bora. Those mostly had ammunition. Now it appears that they're trying to penetrate on longer range missions, deeper inside the mountains.
Nobody yet has come across, or appears to have come across the super caves where Osama bin Laden was thought to headquarter his al Qaeda network there in Tora Bora.
But the search is continuing, and it's being done with the assistance of Eastern Alliance fighters. The villagers around that area of Tora Bora have told us that the Special Forces have told them not to buy any al Qaeda members that they find dead on the mountainside.
The villagers say there are two areas on the mountainside where they believe there are 28 bodies in one location, 25 al Qaeda bodies in another location that they're leaving out at the request of the U.S. Special Forces. It has to be said, it is very, very cold high on those mountains as well. Most of the peaks there are snow-capped.
Eastern Alliance commanders here also tell us that they have now sent the last of their al Qaeda prisoners to Kabul, the capitol. They say amongst them were Chechens, Chinese, Pakistanis, Saudis, and Kuwaitis, just five of the - five different nations who were among those prisoners. Wolf.
BLITZER: Nic, getting back to our top story, the latest Osama bin Laden videotape, what effect if any, practically speaking, is it likely to have on the ground in Afghanistan, not only this five-minute excerpt that was released today by Al-Jazeera, but the half-hour excerpt that's expected to be released on Thursday?
ROBERTSON: Well the sort of widespread mood here is that the Taliban were defeated and al Qaeda defeated, and Afghans tend to go with the winning side.
So for the most part, it probably won't have a huge impact, but of course there are probably still people here that support both Taliban and al Qaeda, and would see any message, you know, from Osama bin Laden proving whether or not he's alive, nobody knows, but any message from him as a sort of rallying point. But it's likely to draw more support outside of Afghanistan, not just because of the defeated effect that the U.S. forces have had on the al Qaeda supporters here, but also because outside in Pakistan, people - and other countries, people have televisions and still hear in Afghanistan very few people have access to TV, to see these images and to hear the message from Osama bin Laden. Wolf.
BLITZER: Nic Robertson in Jalalabad, thank you very much. And new details tonight about the close call aboard an American Airlines flight from Paris.
We learned more today about the explosives Richard Reid had in his shoes, deadly and very sophisticated according to experts, too sophisticated for Reid to make without help, they believe.
We're also learning about a connection between Reid and the sole man indicted in the September 11th attack. CNN National Correspondent Susan Candiotti has that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): As investigators look for any connection between Richard Reid and any known terror group, one possible link. Reid attended the same London mosque as alleged terrorist Zacarias Moussaoui, indicted in the September 11th attacks.
Moussaoui was asked to leave that mosque in the late '90s because of his radical views. The mosque's chairman says Reid, who spoke with a south London accent, was a relatively new member at that time.
ABDUL HAQQ BAKER: It's probable, highly probable they could have met each other.
CANDIOTTI: Sources say Reid had done time for a string of petty thefts, then turned to religion.
BAKER: He attended our Arabic classes. He was attending the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) here every day, so we got to know him relatively well, a very amicable, affable young individual, very street wise.
CANDIOTTI: But something changed. Reid started wearing an Army jacket to the mosque.
BAKER: Suicide bombings, the society being a place of war, the right to attack and kill innocent civilians, these sort of views he was learning from people who were not attached to our center.
CANDIOTTI: Under questioning by the U.S., some detainees in Afghanistan claim Reid trained in terror camps there, but U.S. officials can not yet confirm those claims.
Where or how did Reid figure out how to build a shoe bomb in his sneakers? A government source calls the homemade device highly sophisticated, using PETN, a very volatile explosive powder, sensitive to heat and friction, about ten ounces in each shoe, connected to safety fuses and other explosive additives to set off a detonation.
Investigators are looking for a possible accomplice, and people who know Reid, who call him Abdel Raheem, say he's a follower.
BAKER: Abdul Raheem would not have done this on his own, no way.
CANDIOTTI: Security officials working for American Airlines say they singled out Reid, not once but twice at Charles de Gaulle Airport in Paris, first on Friday, again on Saturday. Yet French authorities cleared him.
LIOR ZUKCER, ICTS SECURITY CEO: He was questioning. He was profiled and then finally, because of certain ways that certain searches are conducted there, he finally found himself on the plane.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI (on camera): With two bombs hidden in his sneakers. British authorities are convinced Reid's passport, issued about three weeks ago in Belgium, is legitimate. Now they're trying to find his relatives to learn more about his background and how he allegedly was able to get a bomb aboard that Paris to Miami flight. Susan Candiotti, CNN, Miami.
BLITZER: And back to Afghanistan now for mail call, yes mail call. It's a sign, a small sign perhaps that some kind of normal is returning there, even though like nearly everything else in Afghanistan, the word normal hardly covers it. Here's CNN's John Vause.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): For two and a half years, through rain, sleet, snow and Taliban, Ami Mullah Ameri has made his rounds. Since the bombing stopped and with a new government in place, he says the amount of mail has tripled. Now he delivers as many as 150 letters a day, with a very personalized style of service.
But the mail is slow and unreliable. A letter from Kabul to Jalalabad, just a six-hour drive can take a week to a month. Their equipment is old and in poor repair, the letters sorted by hand.
Many roads around the country are still too dangerous, controlled by local bandits, and like everything else here, the postal service is trying to rebuild after years of the Taliban.
"We lost a lot of professional people because they couldn't tolerate the Taliban. They emigrated to other countries," says Mohammad Yasin who runs Afghanistan's postal service, and about half the staff was banned from working because they were women.
As bad as the postal service is, it's often the only option, because the phone system is even worse. In Kabul, a city of more than a million, there are just 47,000 phones, but the system can only process 15,000 calls at a time and there is no international service because the satellite equipment stopped working months ago. VAUSE (on camera): They've been using this telephone exchange for about 40 years. No one's sure exactly how long. It was bought second hand, World War II surplus. They don't make them like this anymore and that's the problem. There are no spare parts.
So if something breaks, they either have to repair it themselves, and if they can't, well it stays broken.
VAUSE (voice over): Abdul Raheem a former career diplomat, is the new Communications Minister.
ABDUL RAHEEM: One thing clearly we can say that we are at the beginning.
VAUSE: It's not all bad news. About a year ago, the Taliban began installing fiber optics only a few miles away, connecting some local exchanges in the capitol. The rest of the system remains in desperate need of repair.
RAHEEM: This is the nerve of the society. I mean for our mission of unity, for the development, for our relations with the national community, for our reconstruction.
VAUSE: For now though, Ami Mullah Ameri needn't worry about losing his job to e-mail. An Afghan Internet service isn't a high priority. John Vause, CNN, Kabul.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And ahead on NEWSNIGHT, help in analyzing the latest tape from Osama bin Laden from someone who's actually met him, CNN Terrorism Analyst Peter Bergen.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: A Pentagon spokesman today said this about the latest Osama bin Laden videotape: "I don't know if it's real, if it's new, if it's old." Well, that doesn't exactly inspire confidence that the tape will give us much insight, but we've only seen a small part of it. The rest, as we said earlier, will come out tomorrow.
And after seeing several of these since September 11th, we know that the interpretation involves much more nuance than translation. No one better to get the nuance than from someone who's actually met Osama bin Laden as a journalist, our own Peter Bergen, our CNN Terrorism Analyst, the author of the new book, Holy War, Inc. Peter, thanks for joining us.
Now you've been studying this tape. You've been looking precisely at the words he uttered. What have you gleaned?
PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well he's older. I mean, I think it's two things from the physical kind of aspect of the tape. First of all, it's not a rocky outcrop.
He's got a - it's an anonymous backdrop, so I think bin Laden has perhaps learned that American geologists can actually get some idea where he is based on the rocks around him. So this is the second now where we've seen sort of an anonymous backdrop.
BLITZER: And I want to put up on the screen, we have some pictures comparing some of these - the earlier videotapes with this one from October 7th. That was the first one we saw, after the September 11th terrorist attacks, then November 4th the earlier one, and then now December 26th.
And you were pointing out in that first one, October 7th, we did see some rocks behind him, which presumably offered a clue to geologists.
BERGEN: They did indeed, and there were geologists saying that the October 7th interview was conducted perhaps in Pachtia (ph) Province in eastern Afghanistan. And the other two, as you can see, are much more anonymous.
But the other thing obviously is his bear has whitened considerably in the space of a relatively short amount of time. So he's clearly under pressure. And as David Ensor pointed out in his piece, you know, he's clearly looking a little more pasty on December 26th than on November 4th.
BLITZER: From the words that he uttered, the confidence, the tone that he was conveying, did he seem like someone who thought it was almost all but over, or just really beginning?
BERGEN: Well, you know, I think bin Laden's always felt that God's on his side and that he's doing the right thing. I mean, there's not a huge difference in what he said in the five minutes that we've see from previous statements.
In one, he calls the United States the head of the snake, and he's used that formulation as early as 1993. So it's (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with his other rhetorical statements about the United States.
BLITZER: The clear thrust in this tape as in earlier tapes, was that the United States, the Crusader campaign if you will, was going after the nation of Islam.
BERGEN: Yes, and he talks about the millions of Afghans who've been - of course the Afghans are delighted that he's gone and they saw him and his Arab fighters as yet another foreign influence in the country that they didn't want. And they seem to be welcoming the United States with a lot more ardor than they welcomed bin Laden.
BLITZER: Is there any sense did you get that this kind of videotape, even the 30 minutes or so that Al-Jazeera will air tomorrow, is going to make much of a difference?
BERGEN: I don't think so. I mean, I think that it will be useful to maybe perhaps nail down when it was actually shot. I mean, on one part of the videotape it makes it appear that it was shot in mid to late November. On another part of the videotape, it appears to be mid-December. Obviously that's pretty significant, which one of those dates is correct.
BLITZER: And I know you believe that he is still inside Afghanistan, did not get out to Pakistan or some other place. Tell our viewers why.
BERGEN: Well I think, you know, Pakistan has had quite a good record of handing over to the United States people like Ramsey Usef, who was the mastermind of the first Trade Center bombing. Also a man called Emir Cansey who shot up the CIA in the mid-'90s.
So even though there's no extradition treaty between the Pakistan and the United States, bin Laden is keenly aware that Pakistan is basically against him at this point, at least the government is, and in fact, about six or eight weeks ago, he actually issued statements against the Pakistani government.
So I think it's a little unlikely the he'd go into Pakistan. After all, they have a huge army. They've got a lot of people on that border. I think Afghanistan is a place that he knows very well. I just think it's unlikely that he's going to leave.
BLITZER: The fact that Hamid Karzai, the new leader of Afghanistan, when I interviewed him a few days ago, he said that he would hand him over to the United States if he got his hands on him. Would that make a difference to Osama bin Laden?
BERGEN: Well, I mean I think Hamid Karzai is going to hand him over to the United States. But I just think Afghanistan, you compare topographically Pakistan, you know, Afghanistan is so much more mountainous, so many more better places to hide.
All along that Pakistani border, there are some mountains, but they're nothing really compared to what there is in Afghanistan.
BLITZER: And very briefly, when we look at the full tape tomorrow, the expanded edition, what specifically do you think we should be looking for? Any one little nugget there?
BERGEN: Well, if indeed as some people suggested, he appears not to be able to move his left arm, and that is - in the course of five minutes, of course you may not move your left arm. But if he's injured in some way, that may be clearer over the course of 30 minutes rather than five.
BLITZER: And you're noting that on today's five-minute excerpt, he was only moving his right arm?
BERGEN: Right.
BLITZER: Not moving his left arm, even though he's a leftie and usually he would move his left arm. Peter Bergen, we'll have you back tomorrow.
BERGEN: Thank you.
BLITZER: You'll be busy. Thank you very much. And next on NEWSNIGHT, what comes next in America's New War? A tough question to answer, but we have a good person to ask, the retired Army General Wesley Clark. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. Early on in America's New War, Senator Trent Lott said this about finding Osama bin Laden: "This isn't going to be like an Easter Egg Hunt."
We all knew it wasn't going to be like a conventional piece of warfare, but now with the Taliban finished and bin Laden still MIA, the U.S. is trying to craft a strategy in the next stage of its campaign.
Joining us now from Palm Beach, Florida the CNN Military Analyst, retired Army General Wesley Clark. He's also, of course, the author of Waging Modern War, a book he wrote about his experience as the NATO Supreme Allied Commander.
General Clark, thanks so much for joining us, and where is this war heading?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well I think we've got to finish the job in Afghanistan first, and that job is really twofold. First, go through Tora Bora, see what intelligence we can glean out of the tunnel complex there. Work the caverns. Look for the equipment that's left behind. Look for documents, communications means, and so forth.
And then secondly, to finish breaking up the al Qaeda network and their Taliban supporters. They're still out there in various parts of the country. And as we discussed earlier, Wolf, that the tapes emergence through Pakistan suggests that there are still channels of communication. There are still supporters out there, and this is still going on. It's not over.
BLITZER: None of us should be surprised that al Qaeda cells are still operating, not only in Pakistan and Afghanistan, but probably here in the United States as well.
CLARK: I think that's right, and as the administration has told us, 50 to 60 countries around the world have these al Qaeda cells, and so it's going to be a step-by-step process to find out who's in them, develop cases against them, look at the linkages, look at the finances, take the finances down, work the communications between countries on things like visas and passports, and then bring these people in, interrogate them and break the cells up.
BLITZER: General Clark, administration officials have been saying from the beginning this is not simply a war against Osama bin Laden. It's a war against terrorism.
But as you well know, a lot of Americans aren't going to be satisfied until there's proof he's either dead or alive, captured, dead or alive. And the search, therefore, takes on a great deal of importance in those caves in the Tora Bora area if, in fact, he's been killed.
Do you have any sense why the Pentagon said today, the Marine Corps won't be involved in that cave-by-cave search? Instead, U.S. Army Rangers, Special Operations forces will continue to work with Eastern Alliance troops?
CLARK: Well there are two possible reasons that I can see, Wolf. One is they don't need the extra manpower in the area. It may be they've done aerial surveys. They've discovered that the cave complexes are not that large and not that extensive.
On the other hand, it may also be that they need some smaller number of troops, maybe with more specialized training, better equipment, more familiar in repelling, working cliffs, going down steep mountainsides, working inside the caverns, and maybe they want to do this thing systematically step-by-step, very slowly with some very high qualified elite forces and so that would indicate using the Special Operations forces or maybe a few Rangers.
BLITZER: And the Rangers, are you suggesting they have better equipment or are better trained specifically in this very, very narrow field of cave searches?
CLARK: They may be better trained, especially the Special Operations Forces in terms of working vertically, and the working inside built-up areas like the insides of caves.
BLITZER: The other targets that are out there include such places as al Qaeda cells, Abu Sayaaf cells in the Philippines, or Somalia, a place where the U.S. military did not have a great experience, as you well remember in '93 and '94 in Mogadeshu.
What do you sense the next military step will be?
CLARK: Well the military step's going to have to follow the intelligence and the diplomatic steps in this case, and I would assume that the administration is making simultaneous moves in every one of these countries, Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Yemen, Somalia, and elsewhere where they suspect that there are the more powerful cells of al Qaeda.
And then depending on what the information shows, what the capabilities and inclinations of host nation forces are, then the United States may put its military forces in.
And I think what we've seen in Afghanistan really establishes a sort of pattern of operations. You go in as small, you go in as quietly as possible, but when you need the heavy firepower, you use air power with a few ground forces if necessary. But you try to avoid a large scale troop buildup like Desert Storm in which you disclose your intentions months in advance. So we're likely to see a war in the shadows here for a while.
BLITZER: General Clark, thank you very much for joining us.
CLARK: Thank you, Wolf, good to be with you. BLITZER: Thank you, and just ahead on NEWSNIGHT, from Secretary of Defense to Secretary of War. September 11th, a transforming moment for so many people, including Don Rumsfeld.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome Back. The hot line is a daily briefing on politics that's a "must read" for many of us here in Washington. And for the holidays, hot line had quite a few carols posted, the satirical kind. One of them is called "Get Ready to Rumsfeld" hummed to the tune of "Oh Come All Ye Faithful."
Safe to say few would have thought "Get Ready to Rumsfeld" before September 11th. Just two weeks before, the Defense Secretary was the target of a rather critical report in TIME Magazine, which described him as a Cold War relic who wasn't playing well with others in the Pentagon.
But Rumsfeld is one of many leaders who have gone through a sort of reinvention since September 11. And we're going to be looking at their evolution heading into the new year.
CNN national correspondent Bob Franken starts us off with Secretary Rumsfeld.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: There's no question but the events of September 11 have had a significant effect on the world.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And no question, that the attacks of September 11 have had a profound effect on Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. Moments after the commandeered jetliner crashed into his Pentagon, he showed up to make his presence known during the rescue. And he's been making his presence known ever since as the civilian director of the U.S. military counterattack on terrorism.
RUMSFELD: You will receive only honest, direct answers from me.
FRANKEN: Virtually all who know him agree that Donald Rumsfeld is direct.
KENNETH DUBERSTEIN, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: He says, fine, I've signed up. I'm going to get that job done. Now whether it's breaking some bones, whether it's knocking some heads, the answer is, I got a mission to do. I'm going to do it.
FRANKEN: On September 10, Rumsfeld was not only breaking bones, but shattering egos, and in the minds of many, running roughshod in military and its congressional patrons.
RUMSFELD: I have no desire to attack the Pentagon. I want to liberate it. We need to save it from itself.
FRANKEN: It's become a Washington cliche. A day later when terrorist attacked, Rumsfeld switched from secretary of defense to secretary of war. The turf battles were set aside. The nation marched in locked step. And Rumsfeld's blunt, public style turned him into a virtual rock star. But that style at his news briefings can seem dismissive.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Going back to the report on U.S. military waging a war of extermination. General Myers...
RUMSFELD: A report by whom?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In today's "Washington Post", mentioned the word extermination.
RUMSFELD: Wow, that is inflammatory language, isn't it? Who said it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They quoted another military official as saying that.
RUMSFELD: In what country?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: U.S., and general, and they also mentioned...
RUMSFELD: Say it again?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Extermination.
RUMSFELD: And -- make a full sentence for me.
(LAUGHTER)
FRANKEN: Before September 11, many in Washington were not amused with that approach.
LAWRENCE KORB, FORMER ASSISTANT DEFENSE SECRETARY: He alienated the military chiefs. He alienated even strong supporters of defense in Congress and was not able, really, to get done what he needed to do. In peacetime, you need a different set of skills than you do in wartime.
FRANKEN: But there are those who have gone toe to toe with Rumsfeld who believe that wartime just might have mellowed him a bit, making him more interested in consultation.
SEN. CARL LEVIN (D-MI), ARMED SERVICES CHAIRMAN: That lesson which is very dramatically demonstrated by the way in which our armed forces have worked together in wartime, I think, would just have a natural carryover towards how he runs the department in peacetime.
FRANKEN: But that certainly will not only be the carryover.
DUBERSTEIN: He has built up so many chips, so much clout, that people, in fact, accept Rumy's rules, his wisdom now, that he knows how to get a job done. FRANKEN (on camera): That's what his friends call him: Rumy. But his adversaries calls Donald Rumsfeld many other things and his job may get even tougher.
(voice-over): Rumy will have to sell the administration's idea that U.S. military, which seems to have performed so well, still needs to be fundamentally changed.
Bob Franken, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And when it is all said and done, what will history books say about President Bush and his key advisers? Coming up, a man who served on the staff of four presidents, from Nixon to Clinton.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ginger is my wonderful, remarkable wife for the last nine and a half years. She was the senior vice president for Fred Alger Management. She was well respected. She was a woman of great drive and just like when we were training for the New York City Marathon, nothing would sort of prevent her from those training runs.
But then she said very quickly, you know, if I can do this, you know, I or anyone can do anything if they just put their heart and mind and soul to it. But you have to put your whole self into it. She did that within our relationship. I guess I'm going to be forever thankful for that.
She always wanted to hold hands and that's one of the things that I really miss is whether we're walking to the subway in the morning or just walking around doing shopping or after a run, we were just always holding hands. It's those little things in life that you really miss, like holding those hands.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
It's no secret that most presidents worry about what history books will say about them. Even in recent days, there have been reports that former president Bill Clinton is convening a campaign- like war room to work on history's image of him. So as the first year of a new administration, and many new leaders comes to a close, will the books smile or frown on them? They've become very familiar to us, Bush and Giuliani, Ridge and Rumsfeld, Ashcroft and Cheney.
Joining us tonight, a man who has seen four administrations through good times and bad, and who has written quite a lot of history on all of them: the Harvard professor and editor-at-large of "U.S. News and World Report", David Gergen. Thanks so much for joining us.
And let me begin by asking you about Donald Rumsfeld. You just saw Bob Franken's profile of him. Quite a remarkable change, the perception that Americans have of him over these past few months. DAVID GERGEN, PROFESSOR OF PUBLIC SERVICE, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Absolutely true, Wolf. But I don't think he's changed. I think the circumstances changed and his personality fits these new circumstances to a tee.
He is a man who is built for crises. He is decisive. He is disciplined. He is determined. He is no nonsense, doesn't suffer fools gladly (ph). He's very hard-headed. You know, one thinks back, I don't think he's Churchillian, but one remembers that -- you know, Winston Churchill looked like he was washed up, he was a relic of the past. And then along came the second World War, and suddenly his country needed him. And he stepped in there and, of course. he was a magnificent leader. I think there are qualities about Don Rumsfeld that were waiting there for a moment like this and he stepped into the breach wonderfully well.
BLITZER: I think it's fair to say, and I'm sure you'll agree, that the public has a different perception, by and large, of the president as well. Only today, in this latest Gallup Poll, the most admired man in the country with a record -- a record percentage, almost 40 percent. Are you surprised by this transformation?
GERGEN: Well, actually, I am. And I am very pleasantly surprised. And it's -- he's a man who seems to have grown into the job. Now there's some from Texas who say, no, this was the man who was always our governor, you just didn't -- it was not what you saw. He was a little hesitant when he first came to Washington.
But, my sense is that he is a man who has risen to the challenge. Unlike Rumsfeld, he's grown up. If anything, Wolf, he's the epitomy of what we've been seeing this past year, and that is for so many of these folks, it's the coming of age of the baby boom generation. These are people who are born in the 1940's whose growing up years were the 60s. And this generation didn't seem to be catching hold. And here in the post-September 11 period, they really have. They have really lived up to it, Bush, Giuliani, Cheney and others.
BLITZER: Speaking about Cheney, you and I have known him for a long time. He's always had a very steady, sober image out there, especially during the Persian Gulf War. I don't think that the public has really changed its attitude all that much as far as Dick Cheney is concerned.
GERGEN: I think that's right. We're -- the Cheney we're seeing now is the steady figure that we saw in the Persian Gulf War. And I knew Dick Cheney when he was Don Rumsfeld's deputy. Way back in the Ford White House, Rumsfeld was chief of staff and then Rumy moved over to the Defense Department and Dick moved up at the tender age, I think, of about 35 years old to become chief of staff to President Ford. And that's when, I really think, Dick's growing-up period took place. He was transformed by that job. He did a marvelous job there.
And there were many of us who wondered then if he wouldn't be a good president. We just didn't know how he could get there.
BLITZER: But some people have suggested that all of the Bush administration officials have not necessarily had positive transformations. Let's take a look at Tommy Thompson, for example, the secretary of health and human resources. His -- I guess dealing with the anthrax scare didn't necessarily bode him all that well?
GERGEN: Yes. And that was surprise, too. And the reason it was a surprise was Tommy Thompson when he was governor of Wisconsin, as he was for many years, was a superb governor, one of the best governors of the 20th century. But I think the transition to Washington -- it's a different town, it's a different place to operate -- and of course you're not in charge as a cabinet officer. And he did have some early stumbles. I think from my source say he's doing much better job now than he was in the early weeks after September 11.
But he had a rough time there, and I think he's going to come out of it. You can't put this fellow down. He's very creative, and he's a very fine public servant. This was not, after all, the job he really wanted to do in Washington. He wanted to be the secretary of transportation, something he loves. But this was a job that fell to him, and he took it.
BLITZER: What about the Attorney General John Ashcroft?
GERGEN: Well, I -- one thing you can't say about him in -- because he is as hard-nosed as he is on some of the civil liberties issues and a tough investigator -- he has been a good lightning rod to draw lightning away from President Bush. And that's a very smart White House. You know, when you're running the White House, and I think they've done this very shrewdly within the White House management -- the thing you want to do is keep the president away from troubling controversies like civil liberties. When you can, let the cabinet officer take the heat on hat if he has to.
And they've done that well. And John Ashcroft, of course, has -- he believes in it, so it's fine from his point of you. But I -- he is obviously the most controversial member of the cabinet. He's the one that probably -- if he makes a mistake, the people in the press are going to be after him, and the left will be after him. They'll be all over him. There will be blood in the water. It will be really rough if he really stumbles.
BLITZER: The public figure who has probably had the greatest bonanza as far as public attitudes are concerned is the New York mayor, "TIME" magazine's person of the year, Rudy Giuliani. Were you surprised at the way he's managed to come through these past three and a half months?
GERGEN: No. Again, I think it's the man who meets the times. And he's more Churchillian indeed, as you know. He was reading the book about Churchill and five days in May, the turning point, the hinge of fate in the Second World War, when Churchill -- when everybody around Churchill and a lot of the people in his cabinet wanted to give up, that France was being overrun, they wanted to just throw in the towel, and Churchill rallied his cabinet, rallied the country, and of course they went on to save Western civilization in the Battle of Britain. And I think Giuliani has those qualities, and he was also a voice of New York. You know, this is a town where you have two back-to-back World Series games, they get home runs and two men out in the ninth inning. This is a tough town. I think Rudy Giuliani sort of epitomizes the best of New York. So, he's walking out as a real winner, a real hero in this, and God bless him for it. He's done a lot for the country.
BLITZER: Well, if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere. David Gergen, thanks for your insight, thank you very much.
GERGEN: Thank you very much.
BLITZER: And in a moment, Muhammad Ali gets the call in America's new war. We'll talk to the man who recruited him for his public relations punch.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
More than three decades ago, a boxer from Louisville, Kentucky knocked the world on its ear. Just days after winning the heavyweight title, Cassius Clay converted to Islam and changed his name to Muhammad Ali. He later declined to serve in Vietnam. Like so many things back then, it divided the nation.
Today, it's a different war, and a different story. The nation is united, and Muhammad Ali may now answer the call. He has tentatively agreed to appear in a public service announcement aimed at the Muslim world. It's part of an effort called "Hollywood 9/11." Jack Valenti is heading things up. He's the president of the Motion Picture Association of America, and he joins me here in Washington. Mr. Valenti, thanks for joining us.
Why Muhammad Ali?
JACK VALENTI, PRESIDENT, MOTION PICTURE ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA: Muhammad Ali is without question the most famous man in the world and probably has more credibility for example in the Middle East than any other American or for that matter any other human being.
Now he wants to do more than we have asked him to do. He has agreed in principle to create some TV messages and he's going to give his final approval when we choose a director, and he has approval of the final script, because he wants it to be right.
BLITZER: These are little, like, 30-second or one-minute PSAs?
VALENTI: Yes, 30 seconds, 60 seconds. It's his aim to speak to the world, to tell them that Islam is a religion of peace, as Ali is a man of peace. And that he wants to let Muslims, Muslim brothers and sisters know that in America, Muslims can practice their religion as they see fit, lead their lives as they see choose without any restraints or any intimidation. And finally, he wants to speak the truth to Muslim and non- Muslims alike, because he knows when he speaks the truth he will be heard and he will be believed. And that's his great power, and he wants to use that power on behalf of the great prophet. And also, for the restoration, peace and security for everyone, because as Ali says, that's what Islam is all about.
BLITZER: Yeah, this is part of an initiative in Hollywood that the White House inspired you to do, asked you to do, to get -- to use your talents, your strengths out there to get messages across to the Muslim and Arab world?
VALENTI: That's right. The White House did ask Hollywood to enlist, and I must say on November 11, in the room in Podential (ph) Hotel in Beverly Hills, there were the heads of all the major studios, heads of all the major networks, the created guilds, actors, writers and directors, theater owners -- they came together in a poignant and I thought warming circle of unity. Now, these are people who are antagonists every day, they kill each other in the marketplace. But on this particular project, to help our country, they all enlisted willingly and enthusiastically.
BLITZER: So what are you going to do with this Muhammad Ali spot, this PSA, this public service announcement? Are you going to buy advertising?
VALENTI: Well, we're going to try to get it on networks, radio stations, television stations all over the world, especially in the Middle East. There are many, many outlets who would love to carry this.
BLITZER: Without even charging you?
VALENTI: Oh, of course not. They would like it as a kind of a way of a public service announcement. Because Ali, as I said, is so incredibly beloved in the world. He's the one American Muslim who's believable in the Middle East.
BLITZER: But as you well know, he has Parkinson's. It's hard for him to communicate, it's hard for him to talk. How do you get that message across? How does he do it in a 30-second or 60-second spot?
VALENTI: Well, there are going to be more than just a 30-second spot. He wants to do more than that, and there will be more to come. We'll do it the best way we can. And there they will be translated into Uzbecki and Pakistani and Pashto and Farsi and Arabic so that people all over the world can understand him, what he's saying. The very fact that it is his voice, however slurred might be his speech a little bit, it is still understandable.
And I think the fact that he's ill and he's still willing to do this I think adds to his credibility, at least in my judgment. He's really a remarkable man.
BLITZER: And he does have that incredible recognizable face that everyone apparently around the world knows who he is?
VALENTI: Everybody knows Muhammad Ali, no matter where you go. I don't know that if there's any other American, maybe the president of the United States, that would have instant recognition. But I don't think anyone has a superior recognition than Ali does.
BLITZER: Did you ever in your wildest dreams think when you were working for LBJ in the White House a long time ago in the '60s that Cassius Clay, Muhammad Ali, you'd be enlisting his support to help the United States in this war on terrorism?
VALENTI: I must say I was always a secret admirer of Ali. You know what?
BLITZER: Could have been fired.
VALENTI: But he's not a draft dodger. He didn't lie or cheat or deceive to avoid military service. He didn't do that at all. This was civil disobedience at its finest. He said upfront, this is what I'm going to do, this is what I believe, and he was ready to accept punishment. Now that to me is what we call -- he's a mench.
BLITZER: A mench. OK. Is that what they used to call him in Texas?
VALENTI: Not quite. Not quite.
BLITZER: Jack Valenti, thank you so much for joining us. We'll look forward to seeing those spots from Muhammad Ali.
VALENTI: Thank you.
And next on "NEWSNIGHT," kite flying and cock fighting in Kabul. Ah, the games children play. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Remember that old Mary Poppins song, the one that goes like this, "let's go fly a kite, up to the highest height?" Well, getting to the highest height is definitely part of it, but in Kabul kite flying is far from a delightful song and much more than a pastime. It's a sport, banned by the Taliban for years. Now it's back, and competitive as ever. NEWSNIGHT's Jason Bellini took a look at kite flying and other games in Afghanistan.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Kites flutter gracefully in the sky on a lazy afternoon in Kabul. Until, that is, one of their lines is cut by a fellow kite. Then, the true nature of this Afghan game is revealed.
(on camera): Kite flying here is a really savage game. The way it works is, once your kite is up in the air, you begin fighting with all the other kites. They try to cut your string and you try to cut their string. Look. He just lost his. So once you lose your kite, you're out of luck, because one of these kids here is going to grab it, and they're going to keep it. So when you come to this field to play with your kite, you're not just here to play. You're here for battle.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everyone wants to get a kite, so they are fighting.
BELLINI: Why don't you go home and make a kite?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. I can't make a kite.
BELLINI: Why not?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because I'm not a maker of kites.
BELLINI (voice-over): Rushad (ph), who's 8 years old, is a destroyer of kites, like the other boys. He runs with them in "Lord of the Flies"-like clans, brandishing his homemade weapon.
(on camera): What makes someone a good kite catcher?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That person who has a long stick.
BELLINI: The bigger the stick, the better you are at catching kites?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, absolutely.
BELLINI (voice-over): Strong winds make winter the season for kite flying here.
It's also prime time for cock fighting. A long beak is the weapon of choice for this sport, reinitiated after the fall of the Taliban. A tradition now passed onto children, who were too young to be introduced to it before the Taliban.
(on camera): Is today the first time your hen's fighting?
(voice-over): I ask him if he's afraid of his hen getting hurt. "No," he answers. "Fighting is his role."
The elders fight too, over which of the fighting birds fights best. Mine is stronger. Mine will last longer. Yours will die. How much do you want to bet?
(on camera): People from outside your country might look at the tradition and think it's very barbaric. What do you say to them? "From the cock fighting, people can learn a lesson. These cocks are brave. We should all be this brave," I'm told.
Doesn't it make the children sad when a hen dies? "These children are not afraid," one elder answers. "They have seen bombing. They have seen people be killed. They have seen bodies on the street. For these reasons, they're not afraid. The people of Afghanistan are not afraid of dying."
None of you feel sad for the hens when they die?
Why do you come around here with your stick?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I come here to take the kites.
BELLINI: Yeah? Why do you want to get a kite?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To sell it.
BELLINI: To sell it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah.
BELLINI: For money? You'll get money for it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah.
BELLINI: Don't you feel bad for the person who loses his kite?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
BELLINI: Why not?
BELLINI: Because he lost his kite, so it's we are getting.
BELLINI (voice-over): The games children play in Afghanistan. Games not only of joy, but metaphors of survival in this tough land, acted out with kites and hens.
Jason Bellini, CNN, Kabul, Afghanistan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: That's all the time we have tonight. I'll be back filling in for Aaron again tomorrow night. I hope he's enjoying his well-deserved time off. That man has worked very hard since September 11. And you know what? He'll be working very hard once he gets back. So Aaron, if you're watching, recharge those batteries. We need you at full strength. And to all our viewers out there, we need you at full strength, too.
Thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
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