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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Rumsfeld on bin Laden: 'I've Stopped Chasing Him'; Giuliani Says Farewell
Aired December 27, 2001 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, I'm Wolf Blitzer in again for Aaron Brown. We heard an interesting line today about the sorting out of the constant conflicting reports on the manhunt for Osama bin Laden -- quote -- "I've stopped chasing him."
It might be easy to ignore the line if it was from a frustrated and tired out reporter, perhaps speaking offhand in a news room, and clearly exaggerating. But this was from the defense secretary of the United States, Donald Rumsfeld.
And while the president early on insisted on getting bin Laden dead or alive, nearly everyone else under him seems to be engaged in a game of lowering expectations right now that America's war won't be a failure if we can't find bin Laden. It's no surprise because it does seem like every day there's a new theory from a new source that's nearly impossible to confirm.
Today's theory came as the Al-Jazeera Network released the rest of the latest bin Laden videotape. An Afghan defense official said bin Laden was in Pakistan, alive and well, protected by a radical Islamic group, the group immediately denied it.
In New York, one moving event, one tragic; the moving one, Rudy Giuliani's farewell to New York, much more on that later. The tragic one, a fatal crash outside Macy's, on one of the busiest shopping days of the year, six people dead.
And this story 400 miles away from Manhattan. We're not mentioning it because Buffalo is my hometown, but because this is one enormous snow storm.
Get this, from 8:00 last night to 5:00 p.m. today, nearly 30 inches of snow fell, thought to be one of the snowiest 24 hours in history, and that's on top of the 20 inches or so that fell earlier in the week. That's more than 50 inches in two days alone. There's no place like home.
Also coming up on NEWSNIGHT, the making of an incredibly powerful and stealthy Vice President Dick Cheney, an enormous force at the White House before and after September 11th, whether you see him or not.
But before that, a whip around the world that begins in Crawford, Texas. In case you don't know, that's where President Bush has a ranch. Major Garrett on the White House reaction to the bin Laden tape -- Major.
MAJOR GARRETT, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the last time an Osama bin Laden tape surfaced, the White House dispatched a former ambassador to Syria to deliver in fluent Arabic a lengthy and carefully crafted Bush Administration response.
This time, the White House issued a blunt and short one-sentence reaction from a deputy press secretary. What's changed? Bin Laden's on the run and the White House no longer sees him as the menace it once did. Wolf.
BLITZER: Okay Major, stand by. Let's go over to Afghanistan in the meantime to Tora Bora. That's where CNN's Nic Robertson is. Nic, what's the latest on the hunt for bin Laden?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, showing up more divisions in Afghanistan's government, the Defense Ministry say they believe he's inside Pakistan. The head of the government, Hamid Karzai, says he doesn't know where Osama bin Laden is.
And also, more al Qaeda prisoners being transported to a marine detention facility for interrogation and investigation by FBI officials there. Wolf.
BLITZER: OK, we'll be back to Nic as well. Let's go to Susan Candiotti now. She's following last week's airline scare, involving a man, his shoes and some very sophisticated bombs -- Susan.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Wolf. How do you pay for trips to Israel, Egypt, Belgium, the Netherlands and Paris and then an overseas flight to Miami, apparently without a steady job?
Alleged shoe bomber, Richard Reid did it. Investigators are tracing his steps before that scary flight to Florida, and we will too.
WOLF: OK, well we'll be back to Susan as well, more on Richard Reid of course in just a moment. First tonight, the man still at large. He was all over the air today.
The complete version of Osama bin Laden's latest tape was broadcast this afternoon on Al-Jazeera. It's a bit more for the experts to chew on, perhaps another inkling of what else bin Laden may have in mind.
The administration though appears to be in no mood for reading too much into this videotape, at least not in public. Let's go back to CNN's Major Garrett with the president in Crawford, Texas. Major.
GARRETT: Wolf, on the tape Osama bin Laden says if he dies, al Qaeda and its terrorist activities will continue. On this and not much else, the White House and bin Laden are in agreement.
Well the White House is very much aware of these conflicting reports about Osama bin Laden's whereabouts. The White House doesn't even know if he's still alive, and did not want to find itself in the position of responding in real time to someone who may in fact be dead.
For this and other reasons, the White House put out a very short reaction to this latest bin Laden diatribe.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GARRETT (voice over): A quiet day at the Western White House, and after considerable internal debate, the president decided to keep quiet too about the latest bin Laden tape.
The Defense Secretary said bin Laden no longer merits the attention he once commanded.
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: He has lied repeatedly over and over again. He has hijacked a religion. He has hidden and cowered in caves and tunnels, while sending people off to die.
GARRETT: But the tape, no one knows where or when it was recorded, is revealing. Bin Laden looks pale, gaunt, weary and he comes closer than ever before in a pre-taped message to claiming credit for the September 11th attacks, and he heaps praise on the hijackers.
OSAMA BIN LADEN (through translator): We have shaken the throne of America and hit hard the American economy in its heart, in its core.
GARRETT: Bin Laden also listed a wrath of grievances against U.S. international policy.
BIN LADEN (through translator): The events of the 11th of September are just a reaction to the continuous injustice against our children, our sons in Palestine, in Iraq, in Somalia, in southern Sudan, in Kashmir.
GARRETT: Privately, White House officials scoff at bin Laden's attempt to co-op conflicts involving Muslims in Africa and the Middle East. Bin Laden, they point out, never mentioned any of these countries or causes in the tape made of him dining with supporters.
But with any new bin Laden tape come questions of his whereabouts, questions the Defense Secretary brushed aside.
RUMSFELD: We hear six, seven, eight, ten, twelve conflicting reports every day. I've stopped chasing them. We do know of certain knowledge that he is either in Afghanistan or in some other country or dead. And we know of certain knowledge that we don't know which of those happens to be the case.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GARRETT (on camera): The White House sees bin Laden and his rhetoric as less menacing and less persuasive than it once was. Coalition partners and most analysts agree, and this the White House considers yet another victory in the War on Terror. Wolf.
BLITZER: Major, do you have any sense how much time the president, while he's out in Crawford, is spending on substantive issues, like the War in Afghanistan, the search for Osama bin Laden, and how much time he's simply relaxing?
GARRETT: Well, I wouldn't want to put a proportional ratio on it, Wolf. I mean White House advisors for example today, the president spent a good deal of time working on the ranch. He actually planted a live oak tree right next to the main house, given to him by White House staffers, went for a jog.
So we're led to believe the president is following through on his promise to get a little bit of rest and relaxation on this trip down here to Crawford.
But nevertheless, events do chase him down here. He's in constant contact, for example, with the Secretary of State about the continuing tensions between India and Pakistan, and did receive regular briefings, we were told today, about the contents of the bin Laden tape and what information intelligence sources gathered from reviewing the tape very closely. That's about all we know for now. Wolf.
BLITZER: And any plans for the president to make himself available while he's down there in Texas to reporters?
GARRETT: Not anytime soon, Wolf. White House officials have told us the president really does want to get in some rest, at least this week. We are led to believe there might be some presidential travel next week.
Some of it might even be highlighting the education bill the Congress passed, as Congress finished up its legislative work this year. But that's about all the details we've been given so far. Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Major Garrett, he deserves some time off as well. Not only you, Major, but the president of the United States. Thank you very much.
And there's a plan shaping up to send al Qaeda and Taliban prisoners to the Caribbean, no joke and no vacation either. They would be housed on a U.S. Naval Base at Guantanimo Bay in Cuba.
The Pentagon says orders have gone out to build facilities for several hundred detainees there. So far, 45 prisoners are being held, either in Afghanistan or on a warship in the Arabian Sea.
Let's turn to Richard Reid now. We learned more today about where he went in the months before boarding an American Airlines jet with shoes full of plastic explosive.
It's quite an odyssey raising more than a few questions, including how he managed to pay for it all, and what he may have been up to all along the way. Let's go back to Susan Candiotti. She's working the story in Miami. Susan.
CANDIOTTI: Hello, Wolf. This is the destination Richard Reid chose for that overseas flight, a flight in which he allegedly laced up ankle high sneakers, packed with explosives. But what led up to that flight? What led up to that day?
Investigators say Reid covered a lot of territory on a dishwasher's salary.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI (voice over): Even before he paid cash to board Flight 63, Richard Reid, say investigators, traveled a lot for a man who never had a steady job.
Last July French and Belgium investigators say, Reid bought tickets for Israel and Egypt. Israeli officials tell CNN he spent about ten days there. Israeli security an the FBI, investigating whether Reid was doing reconnaissance for a future attack, and who he met there.
On his way to Israel, El Al Airlines Security put Reid through a body search, his shoes removed and examined separately. Security won't say why Reid attracted special attention or where he was flying from.
But it adds to the mystery of a man who attended the same London Mosque as terror suspect, Zacarias Moussaoui. Reid's also been identified by al Qaeda prisoners in Afghanistan as having attended training camps there.
PAUL BREMER, FORMER COUNTERTERRORISM AMBASSADOR: Whether he was connected with al Qaeda remains to be seen. It seems to me he was probably a mule, somebody who was not himself a professional terrorist, but who had professional help behind him.
CANDIOTTI: From August through November, Reid spent time in Amsterdam. Investigative sources say he worked as a dishwasher in several restaurants.
In December, about three weeks before he boarded Flight 63, Reid traveled to Brussels. He was issued a new passport at the British Embassy there. Sources say Reid spent a lot of time visiting computer cafes, sending e-mails and scanning the Internet.
Two weeks later in Paris, he paid nearly $1,800 cash for a round- trip ticket from Paris to Miami and Antigua. For the next week, investigators say, Reid dined in several restaurants in the (inaudible) neighborhood near one of Paris' biggest train stations. As far as investigators know, he always dined alone.
Three days before Christmas, Reid boarded that American Airlines flight for Miami, his sneakers allegedly rigged with powerful explosives.
In West England, Reid's mother in seclusion, through a lawyer, this statement: "She is deeply shocked and concerned about the allegations made against her son, but has no further comment to make."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI (on camera): In Boston, Reid's court-appointed attorneys say, put out a statement saying they're unaware of any evidence of a terror link. Back to you, Wolf.
BLITZER: Susan, what do we expect will happen at that court appearance scheduled for tomorrow?
CANDIOTTI: Well it is a detention hearing. In other words, the government will put on evidence before the court urging the judge not to grant any bond. As you know, Reid currently is being held without bond, and it's unlikely that any bond will be set.
We hope to learn more information at that time, about some of the results of the lab work that FBI scientists have been working on, taking apart those alleged shoe bomb sneakers.
We hope that they will put some more evidence about the what the ingredients were and possibly more information about Reid's travels.
BLITZER: I checked earlier today, Susan, with some Israeli sources that I have and they were obviously intrigued by the fact that Reid was in Israel, as you pointed out, earlier in the summer.
This is being investigated at the highest levels of the U.S. and Israeli law enforcement/intelligence community. Is there anything else we know of what may have motivated him to go to Israel in the course of the summer?
CANDIOTTI: No, but certainly that's one of the things investigators are looking at. Was he going there to meet someone? Did he have any established terror links.
You recall that the U.S. government has some information. Detainees are claiming that they remember seeing Reid in some terror training camps in Afghanistan in that part of the world. But again the question is, was he going there for a recon mission? What purpose did he have?
BLITZER: OK, Susan Candiotti in Miami, thank you very much. And we'll talk some more about Richard Reid in just a few moments. But when we come back, when NEWSNIGHT returns, we'll check in with Nic Robertson on the manhunt, and talk with our retired military analyst, General David Grange, about what Special Forces are up to in the hills of Tora Bora. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: It seems like it's almost like rush hour for U.S. Special Forces in eastern Afghanistan tonight. They're crowding into the hills looking for Osama bin Laden, that despite some less than encouraging words about where he might actually be.
We do know precisely where Nic Robertson is right now. He's in Tora Bora, and he joins us live. Nic.
ROBERTSON: Wolf, indeed Eastern Alliance commanders here have been telling us they have seen so many Special Forces around here and they are working with them in these mountains, but they say they don't know how many of them there are. They are spread out.
The mountain range here goes several miles to the east, to the west, and of course 50 miles south of where we are to where the Pakistani border is, and that's where Eastern Alliance commanders say the U.S. Special Forces are working all over those mountains.
We do know so far that they have been through some of the lower level caves. So far we have not seen evidence yet that they have yet reached the so-called super caves, thought to be at the heart of Osama bin Laden's cave complex here.
But Eastern Alliance commanders here are telling us something else as well. They're saying that they believe Osama bin Laden has gone to Pakistan.
Now those Eastern Alliance commanders are loyal to the Defense Ministry, General Faheem the Defense Minister in Kabul; his office there also saying that they believe that Osama bin Laden may now be in some of the tribal regions just across the border in Pakistan, or maybe being sheltered by some of the hard line Islamic groups inside Pakistan.
Those groups have denied already any links with Osama bin Laden. They say they may have supported the Taliban in the past, but they say they deny any links with al Qaeda.
However, Afghanistan's new interim head of government, Hamid Karzai, while he was visiting a hospital in Kabul yesterday, told journalists there that he does not know where Osama bin Laden is and he does think he knows perhaps where the Taliban leader, Mullah Mohammed Omar is, but as far as Osama bin Laden is concerned, he says they don't have accurate information at this time, and he's not sure.
Now these are indications, the differences between the Defense Ministry, between Hamid Karzai and others in his government, indications of some of the tensions, Wolf, that do exist already in this new interim government.
BLITZER: Nic, I take it that Pakistani officials by and large continue to insist that Osama bin Laden is probably in Afghanistan. Afghan officials, on the other hand, continue to insist he probably is in Pakistan. Is this the sense that everyone seems to want to distance themselves from Osama bin Laden as much as possible?
ROBERTSON: Well there are multiple forces at play here. Pakistan has put a lot of troops on the border here with Afghanistan. It says it's maintained a very strong defensive line against al Qaeda. They say they've arrested many of them, and they say that Osama bin Laden couldn't really have slipped into Pakistan.
However, his videotape that was released a couple of days ago, is perhaps an indication that at least somebody senior from al Qaeda who had custody of that tape, did manage to get into Pakistan because it was mailed from there to Al-Jazeera Television.
But inside Afghanistan, there are competing interests, and one of those interests is to bring to an end the U.S. campaign to find Osama bin Laden here, to minimize international troop involvement inside Afghanistan. And one of the strongest opponents for international troops in Afghanistan in the Defense Ministry is General Faheem.
And so it's no surprise, perhaps then, that his office would be saying that Osama bin Laden is no longer in Afghanistan. There are a lot of competing interests at stake here, Wolf.
BLITZER: OK, Nic Robertson in Tora Bora, thank you very much. And we want to talk a little bit more about what the U.S. Special Forces are going through right now and how they're fixed to handle it.
For that, it's a pleasure to bring back our military analyst, one of our regulars, the retired U.S. Army General David Grange. General Grange, thank you very much for joining us. And what are U.S. Special Forces in the Tora Bora region doing precisely right now?
GENERAL DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I believe, Wolf, what they're doing is continuing the search, not only for bin Laden but any al Qaeda remnants that may be in the Tora Bora area.
The search of the caves for evidence, for other information that may be put with other information to form some intelligence for future targets, or to put some pieces together where people may have gone.
They're doing tracking, I'm sure, and comparing the tracks of movement of forces they may have picked up, the Eastern Alliance supporters, guides, to confirm whether they're al Qaeda or anti- Taliban, anti-al Qaeda type units in the area.
They're putting observation and listening posts up in certain key areas, avenues of approach of ingress and egress to try to pick up any movement of al Qaeda, so that basically searching and observing probably the entire area to continue until that's done. And I'm not sure there's a lot of heart left in Eastern Alliance forces to continue the search themselves through the winter months.
BLITZER: Do you have any sense of how many U.S. troops are involved in this operation in the Tora Bora region?
GRANGE: I have no idea, but I would say that in any kind of operation like this, the commanders would evaluate the terrain, the possible enemy forces in the area, the environment with the weather as well as the terrain, the size of the area and the mission that's at hand. And then they'll put the appropriate number of troops to that task.
BLITZER: And the troops, the U.S. troops are on the Afghan side of the border. The Pakistani military is patrolling their side of the border. As far as I know, U.S. troops at least in significant numbers, are not part of the Pakistani patrols. Am I wrong? GRANGE: Well it's hard to say, Wolf, but I would - I'm sure that we have some type of liaison, at least communication with the Pakistani forces on the other side. It has to be a coordinated operation. So I'm sure there's communication of some sort, at least by radio, if not face-to-face.
BLITZER: What do you anticipate the length of this entire, I guess some would call it a mopping up operation, in the hills of - the mountains of Tora Bora? How long do you think this could take?
GRANGE: Well it depends again on what the task at hand is. If it's to search out known hiding locations, it would be a certain amount of time. If it was to insure that they caught bin Laden, I mean it could go on indefinitely.
So it really depends on what the end state was as that order was established for the forces in that area. And then, of course, that's tied to the rest of the residual operations through Afghanistan itself. And as you know, there's a lot of uncontrolled area still in Afghanistan.
BLITZER: OK, General Grange, thank you very much for joining us, appreciate your insight as always.
GRANGE: Thank you.
BLITZER: And coming up on NEWSNIGHT, the different faces of Osama bin Laden. We had a new one to analyze earlier today. We'll ask an expert on militant Islam what the face might say about where he is and how he is.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. He's the most wanted man, eluding the world's most powerful military, as far as we know at least at this point. And evading that military's most sophisticated soldiers.
If anyone deserves the title, international man of mystery, it's Osama bin Laden and yet, we've actually seen quite a lot of him considering his outlaw status.
On videotape, you have to be very careful in making any judgments just by looking at the small parade of images we've seen of him. But some experts who've followed him long before 9/11 was a date of any significance, had noticed a change and that could be a change worth considering.
Two experts, Robin Wright the Chief Diplomat Correspondent for the Los Angeles Times, and the author of Sacred Rage, The Wrath of Militant Islam. And Peter Bergen, the CNN Terrorism Analyst, and the author of Holy War, Inc. They join me, both right now. Thank you very much.
All right Robin, what's your take with this new Osama bin Laden that we saw for 34 minutes on Al-Jazeera earlier today? ROBIN WRIGHT, "LOS ANGELES TIMES" CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think you've seen a steady progression since the first tape when he seemed almost messianic and authoritative, making a strong appeal to his followers.
By the third tape, the homemade version we saw, he appeared weak, vulnerable, egotistical, quite petty and very human.
In this last tape, he looks downright desperate. This is his last appeal. He looks and he sounds as a man almost defeated.
BLITZER: He almost looks like he's physically ailing. In the words of Dick Cheney, I guess, big time.
PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM EXPERT: Yes, suddenly he wasn't moving his left side at all. In previous videotapes we've seen of him, he was gesticulating with both hands, and he doesn't do that at all. So he may have sustained some sort of injury on the left side of his body.
BLITZER: And so what does that mean to you as far as the ability to convey some sort of message to the Muslim world out there?
BERGEN: I think his message really didn't convey anyway. I mean one of the striking things, Wolf, was the demonstrations that happened in Karachi were tens of thousands of people. They weren't millions of people, even when his star was in the ascendant. And so, I think his message didn't have a lot of resonance.
BLITZER: But, Robin, he doesn't need millions of followers to cause extensive damage. Look what happened with 19 individuals here in the United States.
WRIGHT: Well, it's clear that there will probably be a small residual group of disillusioned, disgruntled, angry young men who will look to him as a hero. I mean you look, more than a half century later after Hitler was defeated, and there's still neo-nazi groups.
There will be those who look to him because he proposes what is envisioned, he claims will be kind of a perfect world, an Islamic world. At the end of the day, the fact that the American military was engaged in a decisive defeat of the Taliban, the fact that the Afghan people seem happy with the post Taliban rule is a combination that will be very difficult to gain popularity, or to find, you know, others who oppose, who back bin Laden in other parts of the Islamic world.
BLITZER: Peter, you and I watched that entire 34-minute tape. What was the single most striking thing that came through of what he said and what he didn't say, what he omitted from saying?
BERGEN: Well, it was striking that he was by himself. I mean he didn't have his senior aides around him as he's had in the past, so he may be operating by himself.
The question of timing, it's ambiguous whether the tape was made in mid-December of late November. He makes a number of statements. But I mean, I think we can say he certainly was alive in late November.
And I think the one thing that was striking to me, a very clear decision from him saying "I'm ready to die" very clear.
BLITZER: It's one thing to say. It's another thing to do it. He doesn't seem to be showing a lot of desire to die, is he?
BERGEN: Well we all want to go to paradise, but we don't necessarily want to go to paradise today, so that may be part of the calculation.
BLITZER: He kept expressing hope that those 19 young students, he called them, the hijackers would be in paradise. But he specifically made a major point, Robin, as you well know of stressing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Palestine he kept talking about, and the people, the children of Iraq, as if those were his two big grievances.
WRIGHT: But they were very recent additions to his litany of grievances primarily aimed at his own country and the West, and there's no one you see in the Palestinian community or in Iraq or those who support Iraq, siding with Osama bin Laden.
BLITZER: In a 34-minute speech, he barely spoke about what used to be his #1 grievance, U.S. military personnel in Saudi Arabia.
BERGEN: Yes, in fact, he just doesn't mention it except in rather an elliptical way right at the end when he says, "we want all the lands that have been taken from us back." So that is very striking that he didn't mention it.
It's kind of curious, because that is the one sort of benchmark thing that he always goes on about. And he didn't mention it.
Wolf: Do you think we're going to be hearing more of these, seeing more of these videotapes from Osama Bin Laden anytime soon?
WRIGHT: Well, I suspect that among the debris that's found in the places he's abandoned or his followers have abandoned we're likely to find more of these homemade tapes.
It's quite clear that he believes that his message is so important that he allowed himself to be taped in both formal and informal occasions. I mean, this is a man who -- who really sees himself as an historic figure. His ego comes through.
BLITZER: And -- and that ego, presumably, will probably convince him not to become a martyr.
BERGER: Well, I do -- I think he's fairly genuine in the sense that he is willing -- he did fight at some considerable personal risk against the Russians. So he's not a coward in -- in the conventional sense.
I think he would be willing to die. The question is, well, we don't even know if he's alive right now, as it happens.
BLITZER: Robin, while I have you, very briefly. The tension -- the nuclear tensions between India and Pakistan could have an enormous impact on -- on the region, of course, as well as the U.S. war against terrorism.
ROBIN: Oh, in fact, in many ways it's far more important in terms of what the United States should be focusing even than on Afghanistan right now.
The potential there because of the two are nuclear powers is really quite different devastating. I think the Pakistanis particularly have -- are trying to avoid a confrontation.
The danger is you have a religious party in control in India that may push a little bit too far and feels that it's also trying to win the United States back on its side. So this is a moment to reap advantage from the tension.
BLITZER: Secretary of State Colin Powell doing his best right now to try to calm tensions over there, but some experts are predicting it will be up to the president himself. He'll have to get involved. We shall see. Robin Wright, Peter Bergen, thank you very much for joining us.
WRIGHT: Thank you.
BERGEN: Thank you.
BLITZER: And let's back now -- go back to some of the strange and fascinating ways of Richard Reid. This story landed quite literally on the beat of my next guest. J.M. Lawrence covers the federal courts for the "Boston Herald." She's been on the Reid story from the very start.
We expect she'll be pretty busy tomorrow when he makes his first court appearance. Welcome to NEWSNIGHT, J.M. Or I should let our viewers know your real name is Jamelle (ph). Thanks for -- thanks for joining us.
What do you anticipate will happen tomorrow?
J.M. LAWRENCE, FEDERAL COURT REPORTER, "BOSTON HERALD:" Sure. Well, tomorrow the federal prosecutors are going to try to convince a magistrate to hold Reid. And you'd think on the face of it, it wouldn't be that tough.
But at this point he's only facing charges of interfering with a flight crew. And it remains to be seen tomorrow whether the -- the federal government will be ready to spring additional charges that we expect are coming and whether the investigators have made the link to al Qaeda between Mr. Reid.
BLITZER: He does have a lawyer, an attorney, that we heard from our Susan Candiotti, issued a brief statement. What do we know about the kind of defense this attorney is going to mount? LAWRENCE: Well, Mr. Reid has a federal defender, and the federal defender's office is an incredibly overworked office. They -- they've taken on the cases that other attorneys won't take because the money isn't there. So, you know, he has lawyers who are usually used to dealing with -- with drug dealers and, you know, counterfeit suspects.
BLITZER: I know you've been checking as much as anyone into his travel plans. What he was doing travel all these various places in recent months, what have you learned?
LAWRENCE: Well, the thing that's -- that's so unusual, here you've got a homeless guy who in the past six months he went to Israel, he went to Egypt. In the past couple years he want to Pakistan, and he's doing this while he's -- he's selling incense sticks in London and committing petty theft which raises a lot of suspicions among investigators if he -- if he had help.
BLITZER: And clearly -- and I think you probably can confirm this as well an anyone -- clearly that -- the bomb explosives that were in his shoes, those were pretty sophisticated devices, weren't they?
LAWRENCE: The government did say today -- officials did confirm that those were plastic explosives that Richard Reid had in his shoes. And he had no metal in the sneakers, so they didn't set off any detectors. And there's some theory perhaps since there weren't metal fuses, the fuses collected moisture and that's why he had so much trying trouble trying to ignite them with matches.
BLITZER: What do you know about federal prosecutor in this case, what kind of reputation this person has?
LAWRENCE: Well, the -- the U.S. Attorney here in Massachusetts is Michael Sullivan. He's known as a very hard-nosed prosecutor. But -- but this case obviously is going to be -- prove a challenge to this office, an office that's history is more along the lines of handling mobsters and -- and other criminals. We -- there has been few terrorism cases in Boston.
BLITZER: And I -- I take it that Mr. Reid has not cooperated, not volunteered much information to -- to U.S. investigators?
LAWRENCE: I -- I don't know about that. You know, obviously, the -- the government is very tight lipped on this case. I'm sure they'd love to see this guy flip and -- and tell them what he knows. Whether you're going to get somebody with such a, you know, conversion to extremist beliefs to do something like that remains to be seen.
BLITZER: Jamelle (ph) Lawrence, who goes by the byline J.M. Lawrence of the "Boston Herald." Thanks so much for joining us.
And up next, the incredible disappearing Vice President Dick Cheney. It's NEWSNIGHT. It's Thursday. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
The first vice president the U.S. ever had, John Adams, once said that the vice presidency is "the most insignificant office that ever the invention of man contrived, or his imagination conceived."
Well, the vice presidency certainly can't be what Dick Cheney imagined. After all, he's spent much of the past several months hiding in an undisclosed location due to an increased amount of security. A cave, he likes to call it, in his jokes.
But he just might be able to prove Mr. Adams wrong about the significance of the office. Word is, in three months crucial to the Bush administration's success, he's played a key role in virtually every major decisions.
Our Senior White House Correspondent John King has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
JOHN KING, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: A memorable September 11 shot, secure bunker deep below the White House. No question who's in charge.
SENATOR TRENT LOTT, MINORITY LEADER: My wife describes him as the EF Hutton of American politics. He doesn't always talk publicly, or even privately very much, but when he speaks it's really worth listening to.
KING: From the beginning, the vice president has been in sync with the president, his point man on Capitol Hill on energy policy.
RICHARD CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It is possible to have more energy and a cleaner environment.
KING: Well before the events of September 11th, the leading voice within the administration about adapting into a changing world.
CHENEY: The threat to the continental United States and our infrastructure is changing and evolving, and that we need to look at this area that's oftentimes referred to as homeland defense.
KING: The vice president was at the White House when the terrorists struck, and directed the minute-by-minute government response in the early hours until the president made it back from Florida.
He has been less visible in the three months since, often kept away from the president and the White House because of security concerns.
JAMES STEINBERG, FORMER CLINTON DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: There's a sense of the kind of -- of the kind of vicar of foreign policy for the administration I think has been changed, both because the president is playing a much more visible role and the key cabinet members are out there as well. KING: The president and vice president usually talk several times a day, and Cheney's impact is critical even if not always obvious. The Emir of Qatar is a familiar face because of Cheney's Gulf War days at the Pentagon, and his private sector work as CEO of a major energy company.
So it was Cheney who called to voice administration complaints that Qatar's al Jazeera satellite network was giving so much air time to Osama Bin Laden and other anti-American viewpoints.
Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz is an old Cheney friend, and a few weeks back the recipient of a phone call in which the vice president urged more focus on the war in Afghanistan, and less public talk about the prospect of another showdown with Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.
And it was Cheney who took the calls from worried conservatives during the recent debate about how much emergency money should be added to the federal budget.
LOTT: I said, "Mr. Vice president, here's where we are. I think this is the right thing to do. And by the way, if we don't get an agreement to limit it to this number, it will go up."
And typically, the vice president said, "I hear you." Within a very short period of time, he called back and said, "OK, we'll go with that."
KING: It was Cheney who recommended Pennsylvania Governor Tom Ridge for the new post of director of homeland security, and Cheney who coined the phrase many top officials now use to describe the changing times.
CHENEY; I think of it as the normalcy.
KING: His old version of "new normalcy" includes a new opening line.
CHENEY: Lynne and I don't get many visitors at the cave.
KING: And one important lesson of September 11th is that when it comes to the vice president, out of sight hardly means out of the loop. John King, CNN, the White House.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
BLITZER: And tomorrow, we'll trace the remarkable leadership path of the president. And on Monday, the path of the mayor. You probably know which one we're talking about.
Today Rudy Giuliani said farewell to the city he held together during the black autumn of 2001. That's next on NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Rudy Giuliani has asked New Yorkers to "dream of a city that can be better than the way it is now. Believe." Actually, that's what he said during his inaugural address eight years ago, when crime was the big challenge.
But he could have said the same thing today, as he bid farewell to a city facing a whole new set of problems: a fiscal crisis, surging unemployment, the rebuilding of Lower Manhattan.
A massive challenge, and today, in his last week in office the mayor chose a symbolic place to lay it all out and say goodbye: New York's oldest standing church, Saint Paul's, a church that survived just steps away from the World Trade Center ruins.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
RUDOLPH GIULIANI, MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: When I became mayor of New York City in 1993, with the help of many of you that are -- that are here, it seemed to me that I had to do something different than -- than other mayors. It seemed to me that what I had to do was to totally change the direction and course of New York City. Maybe I was right about that, maybe I was wrong about it, but that's the way I felt I had to -- had to operate.
The people of New York really don't know how -- how strong they are. They really don't realize the tremendous strength they have from the diversity that they have, and from the fact that we live in freedom, and what that does -- what that does for you, the emotion that that creates in you and the strength that that gives you and the resources that you have because not only do we live in freedom, but we have a long, long and strong tradition of it.
So please remember that my strength completely comes from you. It isn't me, it's yours. And you're going to keep it and city is going to go on and it's going to to be a great, great city.
There's one big change that's taken place, that's the most important and that I wanted to bring about. And that one I'm really sure of.
It's the change in the spirit of the city. That city that used to be the "rotting apple," that 60, 70, 80 percent of the people wanted to leave and nobody wanted to come to.
That's -- that city now is a very strong and it's a confident city. It's a city that has withstood the worst attack of any city in America or in the history of America, and people are standing up as tall, as strong and as straight as this -- as this church.
Although I have to leave you as a mayor soon, I resume the much more honorable title of citizen: citizen of New York and citizen of the United States.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
BLITZER: It's been said the final chapter for Rudy Giuliani's career as mayor had to be rewritten after September 11th. For at least one journalist, that meant literally rewriting. Andrew Kirtzman is the senior political reporter for "New York One" in New York, and author of "Rudy Giuliani: Emperor of the City." He joins us with his take on the mayor's goodbye speech.
Andrew, you were there. You were inside. Give us -- give us the flavor.
ANDREW KIRTZMAN, "NEW YORK ONE" POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, Rudy Giuliani is now speaking to two audiences, not one.
He's no longer just the mayor of New York City, he's the mayor of America. So he has a message to New Yorkers which is, you know, keep taxes low and keep the cops performing aggressively towards criminals.
But now he has this kind of aura of a national hero. So his message to America was, you know, we shall prevail. America's ideals are -- are right and the evildoers have already lost the war.
It's a different Giuliani now. He's a -- he's a bona fide national hero. He's "Time" magazine's person of the year.
And it all had kind of the aura of Eisenhower's farewell address. There was a tremendous amount of moment to it. And besides all that, Giuliani has always been an extremely persuasive speaker.
He's a former prosecutor. He lays out his cases brilliantly and he -- he put forth a very moving speech today.
BLITZER: It looked like he was ad-libbing as well as reading a little bit from some sort of text, some sort of prepared remarks. Was that a -- was that the general sense that you got?
KIRTZMAN: Let me tell you something, Wolf. There -- there was nothing like watching Giuliani put for a presentation that goes on for an hour, hour and a half. We all noticed in the New York City press corps when he delivered his first budget address in 1994 and he did it without a prepared text.
He -- he gets out of -- off the platform, as you can see, Phil Donahue-style, and he walks around. And he -- he almost doesn't use notes. It's -- I mean, that in of itself, is extraordinary thing for a politician. It's -- it's a very impressive thing. He's a very impressive guy.
BLITZER: You've covered him, obviously, for a long time. But if you go back to September 11th, that first day when he was there on the scene over at the ruins of the World Trade Center, what flashed through your mind as he was able to cope with this enormous tragedy?
KIRTZMAN: Well, I was with Rudy Giuliani the morning of September 11th. And that is why I -- I rewrote the last bit of my book, because it made such an incredible impression on me. It really felt that moment as though the world were coming to an end.
And I remember thinking -- watching Giuliani at the time. I was just a few inches away from him. You know, this is -- this about more than just Rudy Giuliani, you know? This is about war. And I couldn't think how Giuliani could manage to possibly insert himself into kind of the larger picture.
And Giuliani has a way of doing that and always kind of seizing the spotlight, partially because he's just so ambitious and partially because he's just so confident.
And I think what America saw that day was Rudy Giuliani's confidence. And while George Bush was out of communication with the American public for much of that afternoon, it was really the -- the face and the voice of Rudy Giuliani that America saw, kind of comforting America, telling America that everything would be OK and that things were under control.
And it was an extraordinary performance, and it seemed for a while as though Giuliani were really carrying New York City on his shoulders, and he won a lot of acclaim for it.
BLITZER: And briefly, Andrew, what's next for Rudy Giuliani?
KIRTZMAN: Well, he's -- no man with his ambition can just kind of walk away from an elective career. I mean, I've never seen a politician walk away with a 90 percent approval rating. Some politicians get in the middle of their terms, but this is really an extraordinary case.
And Giuliani has always wanted to be president. There's no obvious opportunity for it right now, obviously. He's a Republican and Bush is only in his first term and George Pataki is a Republican and he's running for reelection. Giuliani has already endorsed him.
So the mayor is going to set up his own private consulting firm. He's going to make a few million dollars writing a book and he's going to wait for an opportunity.
BLITZER: OK. Andrew Kirtzman, thank you very much. And if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere. Up next, New York in the new year, on NEWSNIGHT. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: We talked a bit about Mayor Giuliani's farewell today. As we close things out tonight, it's also worth looking at the challenges his successor will face.
There's so much to do, and on so many levels, it isn't easy to wrap it up in a neat package. But in a way, that's the point. It's the nature of New York: a great big messy kind of experiment in a lot of ways.
New York is a place where history happens, and history is made. CNN's Garrick Utley now, with a look at the history yet come.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
GARRICK UTLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It was in your face, New York- style. Firefighters battling police after the city tried to limit the number of firefighters who could take part in the search at ground zero.
CHANTING: Bring them home!
UTLEY: For a moment, the urban harmony following September 11th was ripped by the rawness of emotion and loss.
GIULIANI: The kind of conduct displayed today is unacceptable. You can't hit police officers. You can't disobey the law.
UTLEY: Rudy Giuliani has shown how to lead a city in crisis.
GIULIANI: Let's talk a little later, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UTLEY: But he's leaving office now, and the city still faces its crisis. One-third of the office space here in Lower Manhattan gone. 100,000 jobs gone.
And here's another number, $83 billion. That's the estimate of the total financial impact of the terrorist attacks on the city. How do you come back from that?
If you were running a business in Lower Manhattan and closed down September 11th, perhaps you have had the courage to reopen, helped by some of the $37 billion of insurance money which will flow into the city.
And the federal government will pay for the cleanup, already more than $1 billion. But cleaning up is not the same as rebuilding.
Venture down beneath ground zero; beneath the garages, down the stilled escalators, and you find subway and commuter train lines, the human circulatory system of the city buried.
STEVEN COHEN, PROFESSOR, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: I don't think anybody can really predict or project the actual cost, except for us who do home repairs, whatever you estimate in the beginning, you end up paying twice as much by the end.
UTLEY: If the future of New York lies down there, it also lies up here on a glittering surface. New York has always had to sell itself as a city of light, energy, glamour and grit.
SINGING: In old New York...
UTLEY: Sure, as the old saying goes, it's a great place to visit, and some tourists are starting to come back. But would you really want to live here, now that services are certain to be cut because the city doesn't have the money to pay for them?
In a city in recession and lingering shock, there are fears that the crime rate will start to rise; that with poverty, more homeless will appear in the streets. So where is the good news? Perhaps it's in the oldest story of this city of immigrants. Of the eight million New Yorkers, 40 percent were born outside the United States.
COHEN: People have come here, overcoming adversity to get here in the first place. So the idea of getting slammed down on the mats and getting up again is almost a New York City characteristic.
UTLEY: The new mayor, who is supposed to lift the city off the mat, is Michael Bloomberg. Occupation: businessman. Net wealth: about $4 billion.
New Yorkers hope he'll be a tough, can-do leader in the style of Rudy Giuliani. His success will depend on his ability to persuade business to stay in New York.
And in our 21st-century, Internet-connected world, is location, location, location still so important?
Particularly in the metropolis, where the taxes are high, the housing overpriced and the living space less than generous. Or perhaps, as New Yorkers see it, that's part of attraction.
New York is the world financial trade center. The financial industry alone provides 30 percent of all income in the city, without it the city dies.
Those who believe in New York's comeback are betting on the human factor.
COHEN: The need for personal contact isn't going down. But for some reason, after 30 e-mails and ten phone calls, you still find yourself having lunch with somebody downtown to finalize the deal.
UTLEY: And so after the loss and grief, and as the final vestiges of the World Trade Center disappear, the plan, the hope is rebuild and they will come back. The jobs, the people, to the once and future city. Garrick Utley, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
BLITZER: And that's all the time we have tonight. I'll be back same time tomorrow. Aaron will be back next week. Thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
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