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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Suspected Terrorist Moussaoui Arraigned; Fires Rage in Australia
Aired January 02, 2002 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST, NEWSNIGHT: Good evening again, I'm Aaron Brown. It is nice to be back, but it was also nice to get away for a few days. Not so much away from the program, just away from New York. It was good to be reminded, and we were, that New York is different where September 11 is concerned.
It's not that the people in Arizona don't think about the attack and the war and the rest, they do, and not just because it's on their newscast, but because it happened to their country, because their sons and daughters have been sent overseas, their children need explanations, their own fears are heightened.
But in New York it's different. Here every day you see signs of September 11. You see scores of state patrol cars lined up on a makeshift command post when you ride into work. You see trucks being spot-checked before they enter the Lincoln Tunnel. You see posters of the missing and worse, you still see the relatives and the friends of those who died, and in their faces, you see September 11 all over again.
It was good to get away, good to be reminded that most of the country is doing just fine, adjusting to the huge changes September 11th brought, but doing okay. And it's nice to come home, even if home is a place scarred by events four months ago and the scars are raw. More than a dozen bodies were recovered on New Year's Day.
There's a lot to do on the program, our first broadcast of the year, from the battlefield in Afghanistan to the Middle East to a courtroom in Virginia. We begin as we always do with a quick whip around the world and the correspondents covering it.
We start with the courtroom appearance of the terrorist suspect, Zacarias Moussaoui. An interesting scene there today, covered by Deborah Feyerick. Deborah, a headline please.
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well the so-called 20th hijacker, the one who appears to have missed his flight, was eager to address a federal judge. Defiantly, Zacarias Moussaoui entered no plea, saying he had nothing to plead to. Where was he September 11? Perhaps some place you'd least expect -- Aaron.
BROWN: Deborah, back to you shortly. To Kandahar. Bill Hemmer, the mission now for the U.S. Marines in the region. Bill, a headline from you please.
BILL HEMMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron at this point more indications that the hunt for Mullah Mohammed Omar may be stepping up right now, involving Special Forces on the ground. In addition, the U.S. Marines are freshly back now from their largest ground mission ever. We'll let you know if they've found anything in that hunt for a compound west of here, coming up in a moment -- Aaron.
BROWN: Bill, thank you. More tonight also on that Arab-American secret service agent forced off an American Airlines flight. Jeanne Meserve has been covering the story for us. Jeanne, a headline from you please.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the secret service agent says it was racial profiling, but tonight new details about the captain's side of the story. He says it was all about security and that the agent was abusive and hostile -- Aaron.
BROWN: Jeanne. On to Australia next, a first for us in the whip, the headline now in the fires threatening Sydney. Mitch Catlin is in the Blue Mountains near the city. Mitch, a headline please.
MITCH CATLIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, more than 100 blazes are burning out of control across New South Wales. Already several thousand Australians have been evacuated. Around 200 properties are being destroyed, and that number is rising. At least 20 people have been arrested as arsonists, believed to have deliberately lit these fires. I'll have more details shortly, Aaron.
BROWN: Thank you, Mitch. Welcome to NEWSNIGHT. Back to all of you in a moment. Also coming up on the program, a story we've dubbed "The Wedding Singer." It's a very nice story out of Kabul about the return of a man and a tradition.
And for those of you with an insatiable desire to know more about international finance, the Euro, the new European currency, my goodness have you come to the right place. We'll have that tonight, done to music, no kidding. An old friend joins us tonight with an accordion. And you thought you hated the mystery guest.
All that's coming up, but first as always, the news tonight. And, we begin at the Federal Courthouse in Alexandria, Virginia, not far from Washington, D.C. From some of the higher spots in that city, you can see the Pentagon. That court wasn't picked for its symbolism.
It was chosen because northern Virginia juries seem to be a bit more pro-prosecution, a little bit more willing to apply the death penalty when that sentence is in play. And in the case of Zacarias Moussaoui, the only man charged with being part of the September 11th plot, the death penalty is in play on four of the charges he faces.
Today may seem like a routine appearance, the entering of a plea, but in a case where the terrorist attack on the United States of America is on the docket, nothing is routine.
So we start with the day in court. Once again, CNN's Deborah Feyerick. Good evening.
FEYERICK: Aaron, Zacarias Moussaoui could be the blueprint, the map that allows prosecutors to see exactly what the 19 suspected terrorists were instructed to do. So far, he's not cooperating.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FEYERICK (voice over): Under heavy guard, Zacarias Moussaoui, the word "prisoner" on his green jumpsuit, entered a Federal Court in Alexandria, Virginia. Seconds into his arraignment, he stood and with a thick, French accent addressed the judge in English, saying: "In the name of Allah, I do not have anything to plea. I enter no plea."
The judge asked Moussaoui's lawyers if that meant not guilty, and they said yes. Some officials believe Moussaoui may be the missing hijacker, possibly destined to be on the flight that crashed in Pennsylvania after passengers fought back. That one plane had four, not five skyjackers.
Moussaoui was taken into custody a month before the September 11th attacks. Minnesota flight instructors teaching him to fly, grew suspicious about his motives and called the FBI. A letter now shows FBI agents at the time were warned by the flight school of the possibility that Moussaoui may have wanted to hijack the plane or fly it as a bomb.
Sources say at the time, there was nothing to suggest a broader plot in the works. When the Pentagon and World Trade Center were hit, Moussaoui was in jail on immigration violations. He is now charged with being part of Osama bin Laden's terrorist conspiracy. His mother, who chose not to attend the hearing, proclaimed her son's innocence before returning to France.
AICHA EL WAFI, MOTHER OF Zacarias MOUSSAOUI (through translator): He told me he didn't do anything because on September 11th he was in jail. So in my opinion, my son told me he didn't do anything, and on that basis until I have proof to the contrary, my son has done nothing.
FEYERICK: Prosecutors have linked Moussaoui with suspected skyjack ringleader Mohammed Atta. Both men at different times, at a Norman, Oklahoma flight school, with Moussaoui receiving money from one of Atta's Hamburg, Germany roommates.
ERIC HOLDER, FORMER DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: And I suspect the government's going to have an ability to show that he did a whole variety of things that are consistent with the aims of the overall conspiracy.
FEYERICK: Moussaoui is also indirectly connected to shoe bomb suspect, Richard Reid, both praying at the same mosque in London, though it's unclear they ever met. The trial date is set for October 15th.
(END VIDEOTAPE) FEYERICK (on camera): Moussaoui's lawyers told the judge that's not enough time for them to get up to speed. They said they're going to have to translate Arabic documents into English, interview witnesses in France, Germany, Britain and Spain, even learn the principles of Islam.
The judge said she'll give them whatever extra time they need. She didn't buy the defense argument that the jury will be picked almost exactly on the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks, the judge saying she had every confidence in the people who would be chosen for this trial.
At the end of the arraignment, the judge stood, everyone in the courtroom rising in respect, everyone that is but Zacarias Moussaoui. He didn't get up until a Federal Marshal tapped him on the shoulder, telling him it was time to go. Aaron.
BROWN: A couple quick things, I guess. You refer to a letter which indicates that there was suspicions he might be involved in a hijacking, or using a plane as a bomb. What is the letter? From who to - what is the letter about?
FEYERICK: Apparently that letter is from one of the flight instructors at the school where he was training. They're the ones who contacted the FBI, basically telling them "look, we've got this guy. He's learning how to fly, but we have some serious questions."
The FBI then immediately came to pick up Moussaoui and they took him away. And so, it was sort of a letter of commendation, but the indication is, is that even flight instructors as early as August said that they thought that something was up. However, sources do tell CNN that there was no indication of any broader terrorist plot.
BROWN: And when you talked about documents or the lawyers talked about documents that need to be translated and the like, do we have any idea what they're talking about there?
FEYERICK: There are going to be box loads of documents that the defense team is going to have to go through during the discovery period. A number of them are classified. We're going to be having motions and hearings on all of that.
Also, there are a number, because this is such an international case, there are going to be a lot of documents from a lot of different countries, and the defense teams are going to have to go through that painstakingly. Prosecutors have already had several months to go through these things. That's what they based their indictment on, in part anyway. So the defense team says they've got a head start, and we're starting with nothing right now.
BROWN: Deborah, thanks. Deborah Feyerick in Washington tonight, working the Moussaoui story. We go to Afghanistan next. If it all seemed too easy, as the year came to a close, it looks a bit trickier tonight, doesn't it?
We're now learning a lot of Taliban fighters didn't just up and surrender. We're discovering many kept their weapons. They might be regrouping. Osama bin Laden and Mullah Omar remain on the loose, and lately U.S. ground forces have been very busy indeed.
So, so much for the war being over. Bill Hemmer joins us again from Kandahar. Bill, good morning to you.
HEMMER: Aaron, thank you and good morning and good evening to you back in New York. We are in Kandahar Province, and there is another province just west of here, known as Helmand Province. There's a town there in the northern reaches of Helmand, known as Baghran.
It has been speculated for some time that the Taliban fighter, founder rather, Mullah Mohammed Omar may be taking refuge right now, possibly surrounded there by about 1,500 loyal Taliban fighters. And military sources now confirming what we have long suspected, Special Forces on the ground, working to find Mullah Mohammed Omar, possibly in concert also with Afghan forces on the ground.
Now south of Baghran, about 100 miles, the marines carried out their largest ground mission to date. Again, they went to a compound there, overnight last night, 200 marines in total, a whole lot of firepower with them.
They called this compound an al Qaeda target, and they say they were looking for documentation, possibly computer disks and other things that they might be able to bring back here and sus out the al Qaeda network, not only here in Afghanistan, but also around the world for that matter.
The marines who came back described the mission as going extremely well. They say it was a very cold mission, 30 hours total time, but they encountered no hostile fire and no fire was returned.
What they did say they came across though, a lot of women and children inside this rather large compound, described with 14 different buildings there in Helmand Province, and also inside, the marines say they tried to put the civilians at ease, knowing that there had been other hostile forces there in the past.
Major Chris Hughes of the U.S. Marines talked about that with us yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAJOR CHRIS HUGHES, U.S. MARINE CORPS: The commander did emphasize that this compound has been searched before, that the Soviets searched it, the Taliban searched it, so great care was given to -- when no initial resistance was met, great care was given to conduct the search with utmost respect.
Translators were used just to explain what's going on, and that the people inhabiting this spot were reimbursed an undisclosed amount of money for their time and discomfort.
(END VIDEO CLIP) HEMMER: Still not clear what the marines found, if anything. They say they found some computer disks, but right now they're going to have to sift and sort through that information, possibly to find more intelligence on al Qaeda leadership and possible Taliban leadership as well.
Now back here in Kandahar, the even number now of detainees is at 200, 11 more brought in yesterday, six of whom were on stretcher, apparently still suffering from combat wounds suffered in northern Afghanistan.
And every day here, we find out a little more information about the detainees. It's been highly secure, kept well away from us. But now we know there are some detainees who did attend college and university in the U.S. In fact, they say at least one was born in the states, born in the state of Louisiana.
However, we are told that he left at a rather young age, possible for Saudi Arabia and this is not, they stress, not another case of American John Walker, the man being held now on the USS Bataan in the Arabian Sea.
On another matter, late Saturday afternoon, a hard landing was suffered here by a CH-53. This is the large Super Stallion helicopter. That too, was flying in Helmand Province. The crew came back this past weekend. They're safe and OK, but the helicopter had to be repaired, quite extensively in the field we're told. It was flown back yesterday, and the marines considered this a safe and good recovery mission.
One other note here, you know the 2,000 marines that are located here, we continue to see more elements of the U.S. military, the Navy and the Air Force and the Army. Normally this time of year, they'd be at home watching college football games, and watching the NFL playoffs. They want to know from us right now what's happening back in the U.S., because so many marines have been shut out from a normal life that they would be used to this time of year -- Aaron.
BROWN: Bill, thank you. Bill Hemmer in Kandahar tonight reporting for us. On we go, an update tonight on a very intriguing story that broke last week. You might have missed it in the rush of the holidays.
An Arab-American was forced off an American Airlines flight. That in itself would be interesting enough we suppose. It is all the more intriguing because of what this man does for a living. He protects the president of the United States. In fact, the secret service agent was en route to the Bush ranch in Crawford, Texas.
So was it a case of racial profiling? Was it something else? It depends on who you ask. CNN's Jeanne Meserve has been doing the asking for us, and has some updates here. Jeanne, good evening.
MESERVE: Good evening, Aaron. The agent maintains that this incident was all about his Arab-American appearance and name. But the captain of the flight says security was his concern and tonight CNN has obtained documents laying out details of his rendition of events.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE (voice over): The president flew to Crawford for his holiday break on Air Force One. The Arab-American agent was trying to get there ahead of him, when he was ejected from an American Airlines flight by the captain.
The pilot's official report, obtained by CNN, does not explain why the agent was removed from the flight initially. But it says that flight attendants became concerned when he left carry-on bags behind and urged them not to leave without him.
The report says: "While the passenger was away, a flight attendant observed books in the individual's seat which were written in what she assessed was Arabic-style print."
The paperwork the agent had filled out to carry a weapon on the flight was then checked, and according to the captain's account, it was unreadable and missing items. A second and third set of paperwork was then filled out incorrectly, according to the pilot.
The agent is described at one point as appearing nervous and anxious, and later as very hostile, making loud, abusive comments about bringing the power of the White House to bear.
The pilot cited the events of September 11th and the case of Richard Reid, the alleged shoe bomber in defending his actions, saying "I needed to be 100 percent sure of his credentials. I was uncomfortable with his actions, and did what a captain should do and edge toward the side of safety."
Another document obtained by CNN was written by the manager of American Airlines Systems Operation Control. This individual involved in the discussion about the agent's credentials, paperwork, and behavior barred him from flying on a later American flight.
The manager says the agent admitted in a phone conversation, filling out his paperwork incorrectly twice, and losing his temper "after being asked for his ID five separate times." The manager says he only became aware the agent was Arab-American later. "I was 1,000 miles away from the situation and handled it as I would any unruly passenger."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE (on camera): A lawyer for the secret service agent says the documents contain inaccuracies. For instance, referring to the book found on the agent's seat, the lawyer says her client does not speak or read Arabic. And as to his behavior, she maintains he was never unprofessional or hostile, but was not happy to be ejected from the flight for what he believed were racially discriminatory reasons. Aaron.
BROWN: Well, I'm sorry if this sounds like a truly stupid question, but wouldn't a secret service agent carry a badge or some ID that says "I am a secret service agent?"
MESERVE: He was carrying those credentials. He did present them. Their authenticity was questioned. According to this report from the pilot, and from the manager, there was an offer from the secret service agent to have them call the White House and check out his credentials. But they were afraid this was something that was prearranged, and he'd given them a phone number that might lead them down an avenue to a friend of his who would vouch for his.
Police were later called in. My understanding is that they did vouch for his credentials. This was not enough to satisfy the pilot, particularly in light of the erroneous paperwork, and also because of the behavior, which the pilot claims the agent was then displaying.
I want to tell you also, Aaron, today in another development, CARE, the Council for American Islamic Relations, that's the group that originally brought this case to light, they said today they had received an e-mail from the seatmate of the agent, and the seatmate takes up the agent's case, says that he was racially profiled. I have a quote here saying, "he was kicked off the plane because of his race."
We're expecting a press conference tomorrow from the agent's lawyer, so there will be more.
BROWN: Well, we'd certainly like to talk to the seatmate, wouldn't we?
MESERVE: We would.
BROWN: Thank you Jeanne.
MESERVE: We've tried.
BROWN: I bet you did too. Thank you. Nice job on this tonight. Thank you very much.
To Australia next. It's being called the Black Christmas across Australia. I assume you've seen some of these pictures of the brush fires that had been pushing ever close to the city of Sydney for more than a week now.
The latest on the damage and the threat and the search for who is responsible, yes who, is probably the right word to use here. We go again to Mitch Catlin who's with Channel 7 Television in Australia. Mitch, good morning.
CATLIN: Good morning, Aaron, and Happy New Year. Unfortunately it's not a Happy New Year for thousands and thousands of people across New South Wales, 100 wild fires continue to burn out of control. Thousands of people have been evacuated, and more are expected tonight.
Twenty people have already been arrested, some as young as ten years of age, responsible for deliberately lighting these fires, and all we can say is investigations are continuing. If you take a look at the smoke at the moment, it's spreading right across valleys. It's within a few miles of hundreds of homes in the Blue Mountains, which is around a couple of hours drive from Sydney, and it's gradually moving over the next few hours. We're seeing strong wind gusts, picking up the smoke as you can see. That's spreading quite some way.
In fact, the pollution levels across Sydney are the worst the city has ever seen. The figures you would have seen during the Olympic Games, the Opera House, the hub have reached the tall high- rise buildings were not visible. Flights have been cancelled, diverted.
Simply people can not see the city. It's a disaster at the moment, and emergency crews are trying to contain these fires, but we're seeing more spring up every couple of hours, as these winds pick up.
BROWN: Mitch, is there - we talked about the 20 people being arrested, is there any sense that they are related to these fires - I don't mean related to the fires. I mean, are they related to one another? Did they act in concert with one another, or are these just independent operators?
CATLIN: It appears at this stage they're independent operators, though I mean many of these people are clearly under the age of 18, and that's got police very, very concerned. As I said, some as young as 10, 11 and 12 years of age who've been charged with setting fires across bushland.
Some of this bushland is the second oldest national park in the world, and it's 60 to 70 percent of it has already been destroyed, along with around 200 homes. If it wasn't for American technology, many of these fires simply would have destroyed many more homes and possibly killed many families in their homes.
We call it "Elvis." Now it's an air crane or a helicopter that's been brought in. It's able to carry around 9,000 liters of water, and it's directly dropping it onto the frontline of fires, and that's stopping it from spreading. Now if it wasn't for that, many more homes would be destroyed, and I'm sure many more people would have been caught as a result.
BROWN: And just in ten seconds or so, do they - are they telling you or giving you any indication of when they might get this under control?
CATLIN: Look, many of the fires are within containment lines, but every day these strong winds are picking up, and at this stage, these fires will burn for many more weeks to come.
BROWN: Mitch, thanks. Mitch Catlin of Channel 7 in Australia, on the fires burning near Sydney. Thank you. Coming up from NEWSNIGHT tonight, the shape of America's first September 11th trial could take. I'll talk to a reporter covering the case in a moment. And if that's not a circus, keep watching. We've got an act of our own coming up. No, we shouldn't say that. Well, we have something interesting coming up later. This must be NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Earlier in the program, we mentioned Zacarias Moussaoui's trial date of mid-October, which may sound like a long time off, but legal experts say they'd be surprised if it happens that soon.
It's a complicated case for both sides. Proving an international conspiracy isn't going to be easy. Defending against the weight of the U.S. Government, particularly a government on a mission, isn't going to be easy either. And then there's a small matter of finding an impartial jury. That alone is worth a book.
Brooke Masters doesn't have the luxury of writing a book. She's in the daily news business, covering the case for the Washington Post. She joins us from Washington tonight. Nice to see you. What was it like in there today?
BROOKE MASTERS, WASHINGTON POST: A bit of a zoo, actually. You know, every seat was full. The U.S. Attorney ended up standing in the back for awhile, until somebody made room for him.
But it was really interesting to see Moussaoui, because it's very clear that he's going to be an active participant in this proceedings. He's not going to sit back and let his lawyers do everything.
BROWN: Give me a sense of him then for a second. What's he like? How did he come across to you from whatever distance you were able to observe him?
MASTERS: I got lucky. I was in the front row, so I had a pretty good -
BROWN: No you weren't lucky. You got there early.
MASTERS: Actually, no. It's because I cover the courthouse. They saved me a seat. What was interesting about him is I was struck, he seemed very adult and very determined. He was clearly self- possessed. He had something he wanted to say. He wasn't going to interrupt the proceedings. He wasn't rude or defiant. He just clearly thinks this is an illegitimate process, but he's going to make his point.
BROWN: I was fascinated by - I looked at a piece you must have written for the online edition of the Post, talking about the judge's comments on jury selection, quite confident that she could find a jury.
MASTERS: Well she's had experience in a sort of backhand kind of way. She was picking a death penalty jury at the time of the September 11th attacks, and it was an interesting case because the victim was actually Afghani. And so, half the witnesses had head scarves and it was clearly going to be an issue.
And she called a halt, obviously, right after the attacks, and then resumed selection and discovered that very few of the members of the jury pool felt it was going to affect their deliberations or make it hard for them to be fair.
And she asked you, did you know anybody? Do you have friends at the Pentagon? That kind of thing, and the percentage of people who were actually affected by the Pentagon attack was quite small, and that's made her pretty confident that she thinks she can do it again.
BROWN: So if lawyers were hoping to get out of northern Virginia, defense lawyers, hoping for a change of venue or hoping for a jury to be brought in from somewhere else, their hopes don't look any better tonight, right?
MASTERS: They're very slim. In Virginia they have very, very rarely approved a change of venue for Federal cases anyway, and she clearly doesn't think it's a problem. And in fact, the government was banking on this. I mean that's why this case is in Virginia.
I mean they - part of the reason they chose Virginia rather than New York, which was the other logical place to bring it, was that everyone figured in New York, where you can still smell the burning and many more people know someone, it was going to get moved to Vermont of Connecticut. While in Virginia, there was a very good chance it was going to stay right where it was put.
BROWN: Any indications that Moussaoui has talked to the government at all?
MASTERS: Yes, actually. For the first time, his lawyers told the judge that they expect to at least consider filing motions to suppress statements he has made. Now the government has said repeatedly that he's been uncooperative, didn't tell them anything. They knew nothing about what he had to say.
But this suggests that at least the defense thinks he said something worth knowing, and that they would rather that a jury not hear.
BROWN: And we don't have a clue what that might be?
MASTERS: We don't and we also don't even know if he said it to Federal investigators or to, you know, a roommate in a jail cell or even to the guard who was in the elevator. I mean those kinds of statements come in all the time, and so it could be something like that, where he said something that might be revealing.
BROWN: Forty-five seconds or so, give me a take on the lawyers on each side. This is clearly going to be the biggest case either side has ever tried in their lives. What's your impression of the legal teams?
MASTERS: Start with the defense. It's a new Public Defender's Office, so they've never taken on anything this big. But the lead lawyer, in terms of experience, is a guy named Jerry Zirkin (ph) who is widely considered one of the best death penalty lawyers, certainly in Virginia and perhaps among the best in the country.
So Moussaoui is well represented on the death penalty issue. Frank Dunham (ph) another one of the lawyers has some experience on sort of classified information, which is another key part of this case. But certainly on death, the defense is doing really well.
BROWN: And prosecution?
MASTERS: In terms of prosecutors there, the lead attorney from New York is a guy who's been doing al Qaeda stuff for five years now. I mean he really knows his stuff. Similar to the death penalty guy from Richmond, has done more death penalty trials than virtually anyone in terms of Federal death penalty trials, than virtually anyone in the country because Richmond has so many and the local person from Alexandria is a very experienced attorney, who coordinates a number of serious crimes. He's got a lot of experience with espionage and immigration.
So it's a good crew. I mean I think it could be a really good trial. It's a good judge, good lawyers. It's going to be great fun to watch.
BROWN: And a fascinating case to watch unfold. Thanks for spending some time with us. I hope you'll come back again.
MASTERS: Thanks so much for having me.
BROWN: Thank you, Brooke, from the Washington Post. Thank you. Just ahead, a focus on what it might take to find Suspect #1. We'll talk about bin Laden's avenues of escape, how he might use them, a bit about Mullah Omar too. Lots to do on NEWSNIGHT tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
Back now to the search for Bin Laden and Mullah Omar. The word manhunt doesn't quite seem to cover it. Ordinary manhunts don't require Marines. Then again, ordinary fugitives don't command militias and -- and have millions of dollars. They don't have a religious following. They're not operating on their home turf.
And these two guys -- Mullah Omar and Bin Laden -- have both or all of that. So we want to explore how to overcome some of these (AUDIO GAP) that they might have on their side. We're joined tonight again by General David Grange. He joins us from just outside of Chicago tonight. General, it's good to see you again.
GENERAL DAVID GRANGE (RET.): Good evening.
AARON BROWN, ANCHOR: Has anything shifted the balance in favor of the American side yet?
GRANGE: Well, I believe that as the pressure continues on the al Qaeda, on the Taliban, as the new government comes into position and shows some kind of stability and -- and credibility with the people, that some of the areas start to shrink a little bit for those that hide.
And though a lot was bypassed with the momentum with the anti- Taliban forces, where a lot of Taliban forces were bypassed -- not surrendering but actually just on a negotiated, not to fight situation, enemy leaders were able to hide out with these forces in different places. But I think those areas now are starting to shrink a little bit.
BROWN: Different sides -- we've talked about this, General -- different sides here have different agendas. The American side has a very clear agenda. The Northern Alliance, the various alliances, the various tribal chiefs, the various warlords all have different -- different concerns here. Is that complicating things from where you sit, as you look at it?
GRANGE: Absolutely. And part of our -- part of our objective is to -- to accomplish what we want to accomplish, i.e. get these al Qaeda and hard-core supporters of the al Qaeda, and either bring them to justice or kill them.
Or at the same time, though, we want to be very supportive of the new government and the new freedom that the Afghanistan people have in this country. And so we have to be cognizant of that requirement. And I -- and I think that a lot of effort goes forth to do that.
BROWN: This may be the wrong question, actually, to ask a military guy. Let me ask it anyway. Beg off if you want.
Bin Laden, clear. Why is it is important to catch or kill Mullah Omar?
GRANGE: Well, Omar is the -- is the one that harbored -- allowed the sanctuary of Bin Laden and the al Qaeda terrorist foreigners in Afghanistan. So he's a direct supporter of that network and is totally integrated, from what I have read and heard, with the al Qaeda efforts.
So he is very supportive of our enemies and guilty by such that he must be brought to justice or destroyed. Because he will continue with this -- his philosophy of support of terrorist organizations.
BROWN: And -- and General, just very -- very quickly here. Are your old guys -- the special forces guys -- better suited for this than the Marines are, or does it make any difference?
GRANGE: You know, what's -- what makes a difference in an operation like this is not having special forces or Rangers or Marines, the 101st Airborne.
What -- what you have to have is a combination of heavy, light and special operating forces from all services used at the right place at the right time with the right mix, depending on your capabilities. And a shrewd and a competent commander will do that to accomplish his mission. And that's what we're seeing here.
BROWN: All right, General. Thank you. General David Grange joins us from Chicago tonight and I'm sure we'll be talking some more. Thank you.
GRANGE: Thank you. BROWN: Now on to Bin Laden. It seems like finding him ought to be a little bit easier.
After all, he's a 6'5" Arab in a non-Arab nation. His army is shattered. He no longer has a government to protect him. And then there's that $25 million price tag on his head. Balance it against this.
He is very, very experienced in getting away with it, something "Newsweek" reporter Mark Hosenball knows quite well. He's one of the legion of -- on the Bin Laden beat and he joins us tonight. Nice to see you.
Mark, do you believe he's alive?
MARK HOSENBALL, "NEWSWEEK" INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: All I can tell you is what the U.S. government thinks or what they tell me. And they seem to think the balance of probability is strongly that he is alive because basically they don't seem to have picked up a lot of chatter amongst his associates or followers or whatever, you know, lamenting his death.
So based on the absence of obituaries, formal or informal, amongst his supporters, they kind of concluded that he almost certainly is alive.
BROWN: Because they just assume they would have heard otherwise?
HOSENBALL: Correct.
BROWN: Any sign of -- that he's either not in Afghanistan or Pakistan, that he's in some other country other than those two?
HOSENBALL: As it's been explained to me -- and again, I can really only tell you what the -- the best estimates are inside the people in the U.S. government who are supposed to know this stuff, they don't really believe he's any place other than Pakistan and Afghanistan.
They seem to still think that the balance of probabilities is that if he's anywhere, he's in Afghanistan, but they allow that he may well be in Pakistan.
I mean, to my mind, Pakistan is potentially a very, very hospitable place for him because it's very difficult -- or more difficult for the U.S. to operate there than it is in Afghanistan, because the country is very kind of diffuse and corrupt, and because, you know, there are a lot of supporters that he has in the security forces and the tribes along the border there.
So, you know, I would have thought that Pakistan is certainly a logical place where he might be. And also Pakistan is a place where, I guess, money could buy you a lot of love.
BROWN: Well, there's money on both sides of this manhunt. The nature of news cycles these days is that there is a constant "where is Bin Laden? where is Bin Laden? where is Bin Laden?" Every -- every hour, one story or another is being filed.
In talking to your sources, is there any frustration that you're picking up from them they haven't gotten him yet, or are they more patient than perhaps the rest of us?
HOSENBALL: I think they're probably more patient than the rest of us. I mean, they -- I mean, there's no doubt in my mind that they're doing the best they can.
I mean, clearly they haven't found him, which I think is a problem because it's important, you know, to fulfill this mission that the president has set out to -- to produce Osama Bin Laden. And I don't think this job in Afghanistan is anywhere near done until they do that. And so there's obviously a little bit of frustration there.
But I mean, they are certainly patient. And they also keep saying -- to give them credit in the government -- that they never said this was going to be an easy thing to do.
BROWN: And just a quick final question. The importance of getting him. It's more than a symbol. He -- he commands authority, right?
HOSENBALL: Absolutely. I mean, although he had may not be the entire brains behind al Qaeda -- and I mean, a lot of people think that he really isn't the brains, that the real operational brain is his deputy ayman al-Zawahiri, the Egyptian -- he is a sort of inspirational leader.
Unquestionably, he is the one who knows all the sort of flowery Koranic verses. He's the one who writes the poems. He's the one who kind of looks into the camera sorrowfully, where al-Zawahiri doesn't have the same presence on TV.
And kind of like a cult leader, if he disappears from the scene, to some extent, I -- I personally think that his -- and so do people in the government -- that some of his following may wither a little bit.
So his removal, I think, is very important. Although that doesn't necessarily mean the whole threat is going to go away overnight, particularly if people like al-Zawahiri are still on the loose.
BROWN: Mark, thanks. Mark Hosenball, "Newsweek" magazine with us. And I thank you.
Complicating the United States's involvement in the region, a lot of concern about this conflict now between India and Pakistan, just to make things worse. Today President Bush spoke with British Prime Minister Tony Blair about the tensions there. Biggest military buildup along the border since the last time these rivals went to war decades ago.
Hopes for a diplomatic breakthrough are centered on a summit going on this week in Nepal. Here's CNN's Tom Mintier. (BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
TOM MINTIER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: If there are talks between Pakistan and India, they will probably occur here, in Nepal. Both foreign ministers are here for meetings, but so far, except for an exchange of greetings, there has been no movement toward dialogue.
India has sent a list to Pakistan of 20 suspected terrorists it says are wanted by Indian authorities. Some on the list have been arrested in Pakistan, but on on local charges. Pakistan says India must provide evidence if there is to be any extradition.
AZIZ AHMED KHAN, PAKISTANI FOREIGN MINISTRY SPOKESMAN: As far as this list is concerned, it is India which has asked for these individuals and obviously they have to provide the evidence.
MINTIER: Pakistan started another round of crackdowns on Islamic militant groups after this meeting of political and religious leaders with Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf last Sunday.
Within hours of the meeting, police in Pakistan raided two militant groups' headquarters and made arrests. Mr. Musharraf has promised to take a tougher stand against groups with alleged terrorist connections.
GENERAL PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, PRESIDENT OF PAKISTAN: I would like to eradicate any form of terrorism from the soil of Pakistan.
MINTIER: With tensions still running high, civil defense officials in the Pakistani city of Karachi are testing their level of preparedness. This is only a drill, but city officials say the training is needed not only in times of tension, but at all times.
NAYYAR MEHMOOD, PAKISTAN CIVIL DEFENSE MINISTER: For the purpose, we prepare our populace to defend themselves in -- for all eventualities, whether it is peacetime or wartime.
MINTIER: Far from peaceful Karachi, in disputed Kashmir, the line from peace and war is not very clear. On both the Indian and Pakistani sides of the border, the bullets and mortars are very real. Tom Mintier, CNN, Islamabad, Pakistan.
BROWN: Still ahead tonight, U.S. envoy heading back to the Middle East. Will this visit go better than the last? This is NEWSNIGHT. We're right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: There's one story that quietly dropped off the front page in recent days, and in a way that's good development. Things have calmed down in Israel. No peace to speak of, to be sure, but less bloodshed than there had been.
And tomorrow the U.S. envoy, General Anthony Zinni, will be back in the region for a four-day visit. You might recall that his visit last month was overwhelmed by some of the worst violence we've seen in the Palestinian uprising that began 15 months ago.
General Zinni will again try to get the Israelis and the Palestinians to agree on a formal cease-fire plan. But as one official put it today, "all it takes is one suicide bomber and this visit is history."
Joining us now from Philadelphia to talk about the mission and the considerable roadblocks ahead, Daniel Pipes, director of the Middle East Forum and a contributor to "the New York Post." Good evening to you.
DANIEL PIPES, DIRECTOR, MIDDLE EAST FORUM: Good evening.
BROWN: Well, at least they're not killing each other in the numbers they were. That's hopeful. Any sign that the two sides are willing to take the next step?
PIPES: I'm afraid not. I don't think that -- I don't think that General Zinni's mission is really one that has great hopes. He -- he's there to administer a Band-Aid when the patient has cancer.
By that I mean, that he's there to try and get a cease-fire, but the real issue is, should Israel exist? Palestinians say no. Israelis say yes. A cease-fire doesn't address that question.
BROWN: So we are no further along 53 years later -- almost 53 years later, I guess -- than we were back in 1948?
PIPES: No, we've regressed. Israel had, by dint of its really tough stance over the decades, managed to establish itself to a considerable degree.
But over the last ten years what we've seen is a lot of regression. What we see is a lot of people who over the decades said, "Well, Israel is there. We don't like it but there's not much we can do about it."
In the last few years they said, "Well, there is something we can do about it. We're going to do something about it."
So that's the problem now. It's a much more angry and ambitious Arab operation to Israel.
BROWN: So just dismiss out of hand -- we should, I hear you saying -- this notion that if Israel would simply withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza, and take its settlers and its settlements with it, all would be fine.
PIPES: That's what Barak offered a year and a half ago at Camp David in July in the year 2000. He was smacked in the face and told, "No way. We won't accept that."
So my reasoning is that if ever Barak offered so much, from the Israeli point of view, Ariel Sharon is not going to offer so much. And if Yasser Arafat rejected a year and a half ago, now when things are much more radicalized, he's certainly not going to accept it today. So there's really no chance, at this moment, of a breakthrough. None. None.
BROWN: And therefore what purpose is served by the American envoy going back, or any American involvement in this at all right now?
pipes: The purpose is very clear. It is that the American government is interested in maintaining a coalition and the Arab states would like some activity, some diplomatic activity. So what's the harm in sending somebody over?
So no particular harm, I guess, but at the same, as you pointed out of this section, the last time General Zinni went to the Middle East the reception was explosive. 26 Israelis dead and hundreds injured. I hope the same won't happen this time.
BROWN: And there's just no sign that this convulsive wave of violence that affected both sides here has had any salutary effect on them at all.
PIPES: I think that may be coming up. My sense is -- and this is speculative, I have no -- but my sense is that the Palestinian and Arab opinion -- which as I say, has become inflamed and is much more angry and much more radicalized, we might see a swift shift.
We might see a -- a sense this isn't going anyplace, and this violence that we've been using, this economic decline we've been experiencing, is miserable. The situation we're now in is too much and we've got to do something else.
I wouldn't be surprised to see -- and it could be rather soon -- a real shift. And that, I believe, would be progress. And then we can go back to negotiations.
BROWN: Daniel, thank you. Thank you. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. Thank you for joining us tonight. Come back and see us again. Thank you. Daniel Pipes in Philadelphia tonight.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, an old friend, a new currency and a very, very different way of covering the Euro. We'll be right back.
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BROWN: Let me be honest here. There are times when being a highly respected journalist with more than a quarter century's experience is not all that it's cracked up to be. And this is one of those times, and here's why.
All across Europe tonight, people are having trouble making change. They are dealing with new bills and new coins. The Euro, the new currency of Europe, is in circulation.
That's something we need to cover. But oh, my. International finance can be dense, and frankly economic theory is not our long suit. And yet, how can we call ourselves NEWSNIGHT if we ignore such a huge news story? So what's a program to do? Sing our way out of it, that's what. So tonight, an old friend from another time and place joins us with his take on the Euro. A warm NEWSNIGHT welcome please, for Barry Mitchell and his band.
BARRY MITCHELL, MUSICIAN: Francs for the memories/ Italian lira too/ boy, how they'll miss you. And so to their old currency the French have bid adieu/ and franc you so much. Francs for the memories.
The news they're shouting out/ from Brussels it did sprout/ the brand new Euro dollar is what they all talk about/ including the Dutch. Portuguese escudos were awful/ pesetas and of course/ a Belgian waffle.
German marks, they've got them by the carfull/ now they're all joined/ by a common coin. So francs for the memories. A new economy/ try it and you'll see/ a Euro dollar let me tell you/ you're OK with me.
Banks are saying thanks, but now the francs are history. And franc you so much.
BROWN: Franc you so much. I'll save you the trouble of looking it up. It's NEWSNIGHT at CNN.com. We'll be right back.
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BROWN: Finally from us tonight: the wedding singer. Not any wedding singer, of course, and we're certainly not talking about Adam Sandler. This is a story of a man who had to flee his country to keep doing his job.
An Afghan singer, now back home, giving couples the thing that could have gotten them a beating under the Taliban. A thing most couples want all over the world on their wedding day: a little bit of music. In Kabul for us tonight, CNN's Jason Bellini.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Nurthar Samadi is the wedding singer. His was a profession gone out of style the last five years. Under the Taliban, singing music was as illegal as prostitution. Perhaps less harshly punished, but a no-no nonetheless.
What did you do at weddings during the Taliban?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People were quiet.
BELLINI: There was no dancing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No dancing. No music. Just people was quiet. And nothing else.
BELLINI: Nurther sings the traditional tunes the older generation still remembers and the younger generation claps and dances to, even if they don't yet know the words. Before we go any further, you may be wondering, if this is a wedding, where are the women? What kind of wedding is this, anyway? Turns out that weddings in Afghanistan -- the most traditional ones -- are sex-segregated affairs.
All the men dance in one party and then all the women dance in another party?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Women dance (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BELLINI: This wedding party is more the equivalent of a bachelor party in Western culture, though with a lesser chance of it getting out of hand.
This groom will have a second party the next day, in another province a few hours from Kabul, where his bride's family lives. There, rings will be exchanged and men and women will be together in one room.
I'm told there'll be music, but the real celebration is this one here, officiated by the wedding singer.
The wedding singer put up this freshly painted sign just over a week ago. It says, "The office of musicians now open for business."
Here's the wedding singer himself. Hi there.
He shut down his business about five years ago. Now he's developing a whole new base of clients. They operate out of this metal shed, which is actually a storage container from Russian times.
During the Taliban regime, Nurthar took his band to Pakistan. "I came back here to serve the people. The Taliban tried to defeat the traditions of our people," Nurthar says. "we came back after the Taliban to re-start them."
When I met Nurthar and crew, they had at that point only performed for one wedding since reopening. Then a client came by, a man whose son was getting married. He wanted traditional local music, and heard that here was where he could find it. Nurthar and his band had a gig. The deal struck. The date set.
"So you'll be here 9:00 Sunday. All right. Thank you."
I'm told the party doesn't start until the music starts, and that's because neighbors will hear the music and know that it's time to come to the wedding.
Gradually they arrive. By noon, the party was hopping. Then came lunch, and then more dancing. Finally, a short ceremony to honor the groom. He received blessings from his friends.
The wedding singer brings the party to its climax, and winds up the celebration.
This is a time for rebuilding in Afghanistan. Rebuilding traditions ain't a bad gig. Jason Bellini, CNN, Kabul, Afghanistan.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
BROWN: And that's our report for Wednesday. Didn't feel like Wednesday. Nice to be back with you. See you tomorrow night at 10:00. We hope you'll join us. Good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.
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