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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Al Qaeda Official Captured; Daschle Attacks Bush Economic Policy
Aired January 04, 2002 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, NEWSNIGHT CORRESPONDENT: Happy Holidays. Belated Happy New Year to you. And good evening again everyone. Of all the things that we have to sit down and write and ultimately speak, this one is the hardest.
Tonight, as we suspect many of you know, an American soldier has been killed by hostile fire in Afghanistan. His name is Nathan Chapman, 31 years old, hometown San Antonio, Texas. In a little bit, we'll tell you what we know about how he died, how it happened, the what, where and when part of the story. But a couple of thoughts first.
Fewer than a dozen Americans have died since the war began, in various places, from various causes. And in so many ways, it's pretty remarkable we haven't lost more. But that's a bit like saying only 3,000 people died on September 11th, rather than the 6,000 from those early estimates. We still grieve. Less death is nothing we can really celebrate. Each life is a universe, and each death is a universe collapsing.
There's no better example of that today, a small item in the paper about two children, the two kids of Michael Spann, the CIA officer who was killed in Afghanistan five weeks ago. Their mother, Spann's first wife, died of cancer. She was 30, and those two girls, 9 and 4 are now orphaned and they will live with their grandparents.
So we are in our own way grateful that we haven't had to report more deaths since this war began and still pained at having to report this one, this life lost, this family grieving, this universe collapsed. It's not what we hoped for on a Friday night, but it's what we got.
And it's the story that begins our whip around the world, starting at the Pentagon and CNN's Bob Franken. Bob, I think I've pretty much taken the headline. Tell us a little bit more about what you know.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, as you know, it is remarkable as you said that it was 90 days into the war before the first U.S. military man died under hostile fire in Afghanistan. But because of that, it's having a tremendous impact.
BROWN: We'll have more from Bob coming up. Kandahar next, Bill Hemmer is on station. Bill, a headline from you on a busy day.
BILL HEMMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, yes indeed it was busy, and more news at this time. One of the top 20 al Qaeda leaders now in U.S. custody here in Kandahar. We'll tell you who he is and what his role was within the al Qaeda network. This considered a significant catch for the U.S. military and law enforcement. Aaron, that story is up in a few moments here.
BROWN: Bill, thank you. Back home now, Crawford, Texas, the President getting ready to do political battle. Kelly Wallace has the duty tonight. She's in Crawford. Kelly, a headline from you please.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, President Bush enjoying a sky-high approval rating for the War on Terror, is now shifting his focus to the economy. Tomorrow he heads to the West Coast to tell laid off workers he's concerned about them, but this after the Senate Democratic Leader today said that Mr. Bush's tax cut actually made the recession worse. Aaron.
BROWN: Kelly, back with you. We go back down under, Australia, firefighters surely hoping for rain and a lot of it. The latest on the fires from Mitch Catlin. Mitch, the headline tonight.
MITCH CATLIN, CHANNEL 7 NEWS, AUSTRALIA: Well, Aaron, there's an uneasy calm here in the mountains today, slightly cooler temperatures, weaker winds, but no rain. Still firefighters building on important back-burning operations, but there's no false sense of security among these regional communities up here.
More than 100 fires continue to burn across New South Wales and smoke blankets much of Sydney. Now conditions over the next two days are expected to be among the worst since the wildfires began on Christmas Eve, temperatures to top 110 degree. I'll have more details later. Aaron.
BROWN: Mitch, thank you. We'll get back to all of you shortly. By the way, Australia is getting some help from the United States, hardware really, the Elvis helicopter that we've shown you over the last couple of days. This can drop nearly 2,000 gallons of water at once. Well tonight, we'll hear from the company that makes Elvis, a company that's sending two more over there, the Incredible Hulk and the Georgia Peach. It's quite a story.
Also coming up, a second time around for Ray Kelly. He's back as New York's Police Commissioner. We'll talk with now Commissioner Kelly tonight about crime and a down economy, because the economy has a way of affecting crime rates. Mr. Kelly joins us again.
And an extremely important volatile force in Afghanistan you probably have not heard of, a warlord named Guaga (ph). We'll talk with reporter Peter Moss about the enormous power of the warlords in Afghanistan and how complicated governing that country's going to be.
After that, one death of note, one milestone reached, and one case of arthritis, really, all ahead in the next hour. But we begin with sorrow, a family's, a country's sorrow. As we said, it's remarkable that in three months that we've been reporting the war, we report tonight the first death of a soldier from hostile fire.
Yes, a CIA officer died in the prison uprising at Mazar-e Sharif, but this was a soldier and that does make it different. No more sad to be sure, but different. The war, needless to say, is not over. Back to the Pentagon, CNN's Bob Franken. Bob, good evening to you.
FRANKEN: Good evening, Aaron, and the great bulk of the war for the United States was the large-scale effort fought from the air, the bombing. But now comes the part, the messy smaller scale on the ground, and it's having a predictable result.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN (voice over): Top Pentagon officials have warned that the war in Afghanistan has quieted down to its most dangerous phase. That point was tragically brought home by the Commander, General Tommy Franks on the 90th day of the war.
GENERAL TOMMY FRANKS, COMMANDER, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: We had a Special Forces member killed earlier today by small arms fire in the vicinity of Gardez Khowst.
FRANKEN: Thirty-one year old Army Special Forces Sergeant 1st Class Nathan Ross Chapman, from San Antonio, Texas, who was stationed at Fort Lewis, Washington becomes the first member of the United States military killed by hostile fire in the Afghanistan war.
It happened in eastern Afghanistan, near the Pakistan border, an area officials believe is bristling with al Qaeda. Defense and intelligence sources tell CNN that a CIA officer was also wounded. They walked into an ambush during a joint operation, seeking information on al Qaeda forces in the area.
Officials would not say whether the super-secret Delta Force was part of the mission. They will say the Army Special Forces soldier who was killed was not part of Delta Force.
FRANKS: He was out for the purpose of working with and coordinating with tribal leaders in that area, and I think anything else that I would say at this point would be a bit too speculative, and so I'll leave it at that.
FRANKEN: Pentagon sources tell CNN a quick reaction unit rushed to the area and evacuated the U.S. team. The CIA officer's wounds were described as serious, but not life threatening.
Although it happened just a few miles from the suspected al Qaeda complex bombers raked for a second straight day, General Franks said the two operations were not directly connected.
It is one of two areas of particular interest to U.S. planners. The other is the region to the west, where anti-Taliban forces are said to be in the process of dismantling Taliban forces. There are more and more reports that the negotiations include the fate of the Taliban Supreme Leader Mullah Omar.
The interim government's Foreign Minister Dr. Abdullah said in Kabul that whether Omar would be tried in or out of Afghanistan "will be decided when we capture him." But that uncertainty is definitely not matched in the U.S. Government.
FRANKS: I'll reinforce the point by saying, either inside Afghanistan or as he attempts to leave Afghanistan, or in some place else, we certainly will - we certainly will get him, Omar.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN (on camera): Defense officials like to say that one way or the other they'll achieve their objectives, but as the tragic death of a U.S. soldier demonstrates the way oftentimes, Aaron, is in harm's way.
BROWN: Bob, help me with one thing there. I was a little confused by what General Franks said at the end. Is there a difference of opinion on where Omar, Mullah Omar, if he is in fact captured, or when he is in fact captured, will be tried? Are the Americans going to insist he be brought out of the country?
FRANKEN: The United States has made it clear repeatedly, Secretary Rumsfeld did it yesterday, we had General Franks doing it today, the United States is adamant, it wants Omar. The U.S. feels that in the past, the people on the ground have had less interest in that, had been willing to deal, as a matter of fact allowed Omar to escape when he was in Kandahar. The U.S. is saying this time, no more Mr. Nice Guy. They want Mullah Omar.
BROWN: Bob, thank you. Bob Franken at the Pentagon. Have a good weekend, Bob. And as Bob mentioned, Taliban members appear to be now talking surrender in that area where they're massed, north of Kandahar and Mullah Omar may be among them.
But like so much else we report out of Afghanistan, things get a little bit squishy here. Another development is a bit more concrete. The former Taliban Ambassador to Pakistan, the one you may recall seeing on TV an awful lot before the war began, will soon it appears be a prisoner of the United States.
For more on those stories, a number of other developments happening in Afghanistan, we go to Bill Hemmer who is in Kandahar. Good morning, Bill. Good to have you.
HEMMER: Aaron, good morning from Kandahar. Developing news here from Kandahar, one of the top 20 al Qaeda leaders now in U.S. custody. In fact, he's being held at this detention facility, along with 250 others. His name Iban al Shayk al-Liby.
He ran Osama bin Laden's training camps and terrorist camps throughout Afghanistan, and certainly, right now, this considered a significant catch for law enforcement here in Afghanistan and certainly for the U.S. military as well.
He will be wanted for more information regarding, not only the al Qaeda leadership here in Afghanistan, but certainly the al Qaeda leadership and the network around the world. He's considered a key source of information, according to one. Another one says he's one of the highest-ranking members yet to date to be taken into custody.
We're told from a high-ranking military source here, we're going to get more, his words a short time ago. And now there are questions as to what happens to him and the others here. Friday afternoon, Tommy Franks referred to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba possibly taking some detainees in a week to ten days' time.
That would be faster than the schedule we had been believed to follow, but again if that's the case, certainly the latest detainee here again, Iban al Shayk al-Liby will be a the top of that list, along with a lot more.
The other issue, coming from Pakistan today, you might remember the Taliban Ambassador to Pakistan, Abdul Salam Zaeef. He was the one, the face and the voice really for the Taliban in the early days of the war campaign over in Afghanistan here.
Pakistan has apprehended him, apparently in Islamabad. Later today we anticipate his return here to Afghanistan. Again, he'll be turned over again to U.S. authorities here in Afghanistan, and certainly at the top of the list for questioning for him is, where is Mullah Mohammed Omar, and clearly that question is still outstanding.
But what is becoming more clear now, in Helmand Province, the area where Omar is believed to be holed up, there's about 1,500 Taliban fighters right now. We understand negotiations continue there for the surrendering of their weapons and their personnel and the soldiers there.
We're told again, details can be quite murky and deadlines certainly move and slide on a daily basis here in Afghanistan, but we're told late on Friday that some of the surrendering has been successful, but quite too early at this point to determine whether or not a complete success will come out of that negotiation and talks there in Helmand Province. And obviously as Bob Franken was referring to, Aaron, Omar and the big question, where is he, is still outstanding at this point.
BROWN: Bill just quickly here, because we don't have a whole lot of time, do you know anything about the circumstances of this al Qaeda leader, how he was captured and what his nationality is?
HEMMER: Do not know his nationality yet, but we do know that Pakistan apparently had a role in this, Aaron. Reports indicate that Pakistan handed him over, along with many other detainees. For about ten days now, we've seen a number come out of Pakistan being detained there and processed there and later brought here for questioning.
BROWN: Got it, thank you Bill Hemmer, who is in Kandahar. We move on to Australia now. Firefighters there are pinning their hopes on the weather, on rain and cooler air to kill off these fires that have been burning for nearly two weeks now. It may not be much to hope for actually.
Summer storms, it is summer down there, bring lightning. Lightning sets off new fires. The cycle starts again. This is after all fire season and when we talked to Mitch Catlin at the top of the program, he in fact indicated it's quite hot there and going to get hotter.
We go back to Mitch now. He is outside of Sydney and he's with Channel 7 in Australia. Nice to see you, Mitch, and good afternoon to you.
CATLIN: Good afternoon. Good to talk to you again. Well unfortunately there is no rain in sight and the prospects for the next week aren't good. Although temperatures are slightly cooler and the winds are slightly weaker, there is no relief in sight.
More than 100 fires continue to burn across New South Wales. It's up here in the Blue Mountains that are being the hardest hit at the moment, lots of small, rural communities that are bracing for the worst.
Now the conditions over the next 48 hours are expected to be the worst since the bush fire crisis began two weeks ago. We're going to have temperatures up around 110 degrees, and gusts of 40 miles per hour in these rural communities. So they're bracing for the worst.
Now back-burning operations have been continuing for the past 24 hours in preparation for these worsening conditions. Sadly, a number of firefighters have been injured. Some have suffered third degree burns as a result of the back-burning operations, which is not good news.
And I can tell you 25 people have now been charged, suspected of deliberately lighting these fires across New South Wales, again which is bad news. And I heard you talk about before, Elvis, which has been such a huge success here, carrying 9,000 liters of water, dumping it directly onto the frontline.
Well it appears that over the next two days, the two cousins they're being called, from the United States are expected to arrive here and assist in the firefighting effort. But it might be just a little bit too late before the bad temperatures set in on Monday, our time.
BROWN: I'm not sure you could see them, though you've seen them much closer than we have. Some of the pictures you showed in this were incredible. The fire was incredibly intense.
CATLIN: Yes.
BROWN: You can't tell from a shot. It looked in fact worse than last night or the night before.
CATLIN: It has, well about two nights ago we were up in one of these local towns nearby called Woodford, and there were 25 meter flames knocking at people's back doors.
Now these areas are a lot of heritage homes, a lot of colonial homes that are decades old, that are built right on the top of a gully. Now these flames are sweeping up through the bush land, and people are literally fighting fires 25 meters high on their back doors, and it seems that these fires, despite the temporary relief in weather conditions, aren't going away, and the next week we could see very, very similar scenes up here.
BROWN: Mitch, thanks a lot for your efforts this week. I know it's been a long week for you. Mitch Catlin with Channel 7 in Australia who joins us. Thank you.
Mitch mentioned some of this. A bit more on the giant helicopter that you saw actually fighting the fire. If you saw one of these things hovering over your house, you might take it for an alien invasion. They look like enormous bugs. They make a huge racket, but to Australians they have become very important friends.
They come from the Erickson Air Crane Company in Central Point, Oregon. Lee Ramage is the Chief Operating Officer. Mr. Ramage joins us tonight from Medford, just up the road. Thanks for joining us.
LEE RAMAGE, CEO, ERICKSON AIR CRANE COMPANY: Good evening, how are you today?
BROWN: I'm fine. Thank you, sir. You're sending a couple more helicopters over there, right?
RAMAGE: We are. We're sending the Incredible Hulk and the Georgia Peach to assist Elvis in Sydney, Australia.
BROWN: How do they get over there? Are they flown over?
RAMAGE: They're going over as we speak. They're being loaded on a very large Russian fixed-wing aircraft, the AN-124, and both of these aircraft with minor disassembly.
We take the main rotor blade and the tail rotor blades off the helicopter, and part of the main landing gear, and install a dolly system and then the two aircraft are towed aboard the AN-124 and all this will be done by 1:00 local time here this evening, and the AN-124 is scheduled to depart tomorrow morning at 7:30 local time.
BROWN: And it's what, about a 17, 18-hour flight over there, so they'll be there by, certainly in - they'll be in the country and at work, I assume, by Monday?
RAMAGE: Well it may be a bit longer than that because of air regulations. The 124 is going to make a fuel stop in Hawaii, and it has to do a crew rest, and I think from the time it takes off in Medford until it lands in Sydney, will be approximately 28 hours.
BROWN: How many of these helicopters has your company sold? How many are out there in the world? RAMAGE: We, Erickson Air Crane, operate the world's largest fleet of heavy lift helicopters. We operate 18. We operate worldwide. This heli-tanker system that you see has been used since 1992, when we developed that system here in the United States. It has been used in Brunai (ph). This past summer we had six of these heli- tankers in Europe, four in Italy and two in Greece. This happens to be the fourth year that we've had contracts with the Australian government.
BROWN: Just -
RAMAGE: And fortunately -
BROWN: I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. One final question. I know you've got an incredible amount of reaction from Australians for Elvis' work. Tell us a little about that.
RAMAGE: Well, the Elvis and this heli-tanker system that is being used down there, is by far the most effective aerial firefighting system available. It has huge capabilities of 2,600 gallons of short-term retardant and it can be precisely placed very close to structures.
I've seen video where we've landed water or short-term retardant very close to structures and to people, and it's very, extremely effective, and we're certain -
BROWN: I'm sorry.
RAMAGE: Go ahead.
BROWN: I keep stepping on you. I don't mean to do that. I apologize. Thanks for coming in, Mr. Ramage. Good luck to you, and I know the people of Australia are delighted you came up with this product and are sending it over there. Thanks a lot for your time.
RAMAGE: Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you. Lee Ramage from Medford, Oregon. When we come back on NEWSNIGHT, after a short break, we'll talk police and crime with our favorite Chief of Police. Ray Kelly is back on the job as New York's Top Cop, and he picked a good place to come. It's always safe to come here. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We're going to talk crime and terrorism here, maybe a little more crime than terrorism actually. Ray Kelly was sworn in as New York's new Police Commissioner today. It is a huge job in a damaged city. In the best of times, not easy, and for a variety of reasons these are not the best of times. And one more point before we turn to him.
New York's issues may be bigger than your town's, but in many ways they are only that bigger, not different. We're always pleased to have Mr. Kelly come in. Commissioner Kelly, nice to see you again. RAYMOND KELLY, NYPD COMMISSIONER: Good to see you.
BROWN: Congratulations.
KELLY: Thank you.
BROWN: What we didn't mention in introducing you is that this is the second time that you've been Police Commissioner. You were sworn in today. Did you ever imagine you'd get a second crack at a job like this?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLY (voice over): No. It's one of the greatest jobs in the world. I feel very fortunate to -
BROWN: That's the swearing in today.
KELLY: Yes, that's my wife.
BROWN: I hope so. That's the Mayor.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KELLY (on camera): It's just really a tremendous opportunity. I feel truly fortunate to have another shot at it.
BROWN: It's such a different city in so many ways than it was in '93.
KELLY: It is different, certainly for the last eight years, up until September 11th the city was a much better place. I think the resources have been brought to bear.
There are now almost 10,000 more police than there were in 1993, and you saw the results of that. Crime is down. Quality of life was up. But everyone's world changed as a result of September 11th.
BROWN: It is I think - I want to find out if you agree, perhaps you'll not. A lot of things came together in the last eight years, a healthy economy made a difference. Certainly policing, the number of police changed.
The way policing was done in this city changed in a lot of places, helped crime go down. The economy is not going to be particularly good here, it doesn't seem for a bit. Does that keep you up at night?
KELLY: I think it has some impact. Obviously, property crimes may very well go up. But in my experience, which is a pretty long time, I haven't seen too many criminals commit crimes to put food on the table. It's just not that simple.
BROWN: So, crime is crime in good times and bad times?
KELLY: Yes. BROWN: Bad guys are bad guys.
KELLY: Yes, that's true.
BROWN: Have bad guys changed? Are the crimes going to be different than they were the first time around?
KELLY: Yes, I think they've gotten a lot more sophisticated and it continues to be the case. You see a lot more technology used. You see certain drug dealers with encryption equipment, cell phones that are thrown away after one call, that sort of thing, making life a lot more difficult for law enforcement.
BROWN: Drugs and drug-related crime still the principal concern of every police department right now?
KELLY: Yes, I think so. It drives a lot of other crime. It certainly drives to a great extent violent crime. You'll see usually in big cities, the majority of homicides are drug related and, you know, that's the (inaudible) weather crime so to speak.
BROWN: I want to take a look at the lowest level of crime in the city, because when Mayor Giuliani came in and one of the things they did, they took the broken theory of crime, that every crime is serious. The squeegee men who were annoying, people sleeping on the streets, whatever.
Is that going to change or are you going to attack the lowest level of crime, as well as the highest level of crime?
KELLY: Absolutely. No, we want to focus on all violations. And again, I think it's important to note that the resources really started to come on board in the beginning of the Giuliani Administration. Not that the police department didn't want to do the lower level violations, but there's opportunity costs.
You take you police officers to do the lower violation things, then you can't necessarily respond to radio calls, that sort of thing. So you need resources to do it. Resources count. They have an impact on crime. But we certainly, with 40,000 police officers, I feel that we have the resources to address low-level violations as well as serious crime.
BROWN: A half a minute, not nearly enough time. How much time of your working day do you think will be spent on counter-terrorism, for lack of a better term, and the rest of the time being spent on all those other things you used to do?
KELLY: Well it's going to be a significant amount of time as I start my run. Certainly we're going to put things in place that will help us better train, better equip our first responders, our police officers. We're going to work more closely with Federal agencies so that we can do what we can to prevent another attack.
So initially, it's going to be a lot of time, but that will level off as we get things in place. BROWN: I hope you know this. I'm sure you do. Everybody who lives in this city wishes you nothing but the best of luck, and I absolutely among them. It's always nice to see you and thanks very much.
KELLY: Thanks very much, Aaron, appreciate it.
BROWN: Thank you. Ray Kelly the new Police Commissioner yet again in the city of New York. Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, the opening gambit of Campaign 2002, can that be? Politics as usual or is it the new political normal? Questions for correspondents when we come back. This is NEWSNIGHT on Friday.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Some signs today of a new normal on the campaign trail. It's a big Congressional election year. It's hard to believe that that's the case and that we'll be dealing with politics a lot between now and November.
It's a complicated year. Republicans will try and use the President's popularity in an effort to take back the Senate. They'd like to use the President's high numbers to move his domestic agenda too. The democrats have an interesting problem. They support the President on the war, but obviously have huge differences on tax policy.
This weekend, the President's going to do some campaigning out west, and today the Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle made it clear that he's not afraid of a fight, even in a time of war. Here's CNN's Jon Karl.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JONATHAN KARL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): In the opening salvo of this year's Congressional campaign, Tom Daschle praised what he called President Bush's superb job fighting the War on Terrorism, but he attacked the centerpiece of Bush's economic policy.
SENATOR TOM DASCHLE (D) MAJORITY LEADER: Not only did the tax cut fail to prevent a recession, as its supporters said it would, it probably made the recession worse.
KARL: Daschle said the tax cut Bush signed into law last year has put the Federal Government in a bind at the worst possible time.
DASCHLE: The tax cut has taken away our flexibility and left us with only two choices, both of them bad. We can shortchange critical needs, such as Homeland Defense, or we can raid the Social Security surplus.
KARL: Flanked by former President Clinton's senior economic advisers, Daschle said the record budget surpluses built up during the Clinton years disappeared during the first year of George W. Bush's Presidency. DASCHLE: September 11th and the war aren't the only reasons the surplus is nearly gone. They're not even the biggest reason. The biggest reason is the tax cut.
KARL: Democratic strategists hope the economy, especially the disappearing budget surplus, will loom larger than the war in the minds of voters when they go to the polls in November.
MARK PENN, DEMOCRATIC POLLSTER: During an emergency, people are less concerned about the budget, but as soon as the emergency's over and there are signs already that we're out of the pure emergency phase, people return to looking at the budget. How's it been managed? What's the economy going to be like?
KARL: But republic strategists believe Mr. Bush can escape the political damage usually suffered by Presidents during bad economic times.
FRANK LUNTZ, REPUBLICAN POLLSTER: Under normal political conditions, over the past 50 years, every recession has been blamed on the party in power. But these are not normal conditions. This is not a normal period. September 11th is so deeply engrained in our psyche that we are prepared to look beyond partisanship, and look past the traditional political blame game.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KARL (on camera): Even as he relentlessly criticized the Bush tax cut, Daschle did not call for its repeal. In fact, Daschle called for additional tax breaks for corporations, including a tax credit for any company that hires additional employees this year. Jonathan Karl, CNN, Capitol Hill.
BROWN: That's the democratic side and the Capitol Hill side. There is a republican side and a Presidential side, and so we go to Crawford, Texas for more on that, and the President's weekend plans to do a little bit of campaigning. Kelly Wallace has the duty and she joins us from there. Kelly, good evening.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening to you, Aaron. It was interesting listening to White House aides today, a delicate balancing act, because on the one hand aides want to capitalize on the president's popularity to get the Bush agenda passed, but on the other hand they don't want to appear too partisan. So that is why aides said that they welcomed Senator Daschle's speech, that it might be a sign that something can actually get passed, but they also criticized his words.
They said the economic slowdown, not the tax cut, is responsible for the reduction in the budget surplus, and they also said the senator's speech is more about political calculation than the economic recovery. Listen to one of the president's top advisers and to the counselor to the vice president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MARY MATALIN, COUNSELOR TO VICE PRESIDENT: As the Federal Independent Business Association says, its seven-point plan to protect the senators' back side, it's a political plan. If it had any real merit to it, it could have been proposed when the president was working in a bipartisan way diligently before the holidays.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: And that was Mary Matalin, counselor to Vice President Dick Cheney.
Now, as for Mr. Bush, no comment today about the Democratic leader, but during a brief and also emotional return to the state house in Austin for the unveiling of his portrait to honor his service as governor, Mr. Bush said when he was in governor in Texas he was able to work with Democrats and Republicans to get things done. Mr. Bush appeared to be sending a bit of a message to his Democratic opponents back in Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Sometimes Washington needs to figure out that politics isn't what's most important. The people are what's most important. And so I'm going to take that can-do Texas spirit to Washington for however long I'm there. And remind people that results are matter -- results are what matters. Not rhetoric.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: And Mr. Bush launches an offensive of his own tomorrow. He heads to the West Coast. First stop, a town meeting with laid off workers in Ontario, California, a largely Hispanic, blue collar community. Then he's off to a career center in Portland, Oregon. Oregon happens to have the highest unemployment rate of all states in the country.
Aaron, the president's message will be he wants to help laid off workers, just Democrats are standing in the way. Aaron, back to you.
BROWN: And he picks California, we note, to start -- an important political state, correct?
WALLACE: An important political state. You know, we have not seen this president spend a great deal of time in the state of California during his first year. But now we have the 2002 congressional election, a number of seats up for grabs when it comes to the House of Representatives for California. Clearly this president also, Aaron, trying to capitalize on that popularity to help his fellow lawmakers in November.
BROWN: Kelly, have a good trip out West. Kelly Wallace in Crawford, Texas for us tonight. It will be actually fascinating to see how this campaign plays in a time of war.
Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, why an Arab-American was forced off an American Airlines flight. Can't give you an absolute answer, we're sort of nibbling at the edges here. We'll hear from a passenger who was sitting next to the man. That's coming up in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: One question that keeps coming up in the case of an Arab- American Secret Service agent who was forced off an American Airlines flight last week, pretty simple question but it's hard to answer, who do you believe. Do you believe the pilot who says the passenger was rude and hostile and deserving of suspicion, or do you believe the passenger, the agent, who says the pilot was rude and hostile and targeted him simply because he appeared to be, and was, in fact, an Arab-American. The two sides tell such differing stories, we may never know with 100 percent certainty the truth, but it doesn't mean we ought not try, and tonight we are joined by Mark Pueschel, who was sitting next to the agent before he was forced off the plane. Mark, it's nice to see you.
MARK PUESCHEL, SECRET AGENT'S SEATMATE: Thanks for having me.
BROWN: It's strange how things happen that you end up in the center of something.
PUESCHEL: Yes.
BROWN: Did you have any contact with the agent, that is to say did you talk to him at all?
PUESCHEL: No. Actually, we exchanged, you know, a nonverbal greeting, if you will, a simple nod as I sat down. But no, we didn't have a conversation.
BROWN: And you were sitting in the same row, and as I recall, there was an empty seat between you.
PUESCHEL: That's correct.
BROWN: Anything -- here is the -- let me ask this. Were you nervous that someone sitting next to you appeared to be an Arab- American?
PUESCHEL: Was I personally nervous?
BROWN: Yes.
PUESCHEL: Absolutely not, no.
BROWN: It never occurred to you that this might be an issue?
PUESCHEL: No.
BROWN: OK. Lay out the sequence a bit. The flight attendant comes up -- the guy leaves the seat.
PUESCHEL: Right. BROWN: And the flight attendant comes up, and this is really where the part of the story that you know best, as I understand it, right?
PUESCHEL: Right. That's correct.
BROWN: Just lay out what happened.
PUESCHEL: Well, yeah, after I sat down, he sat with me, however briefly, and he did get up, at which -- at that time one of the flight attendants actually had pushed down or was investigating and taking a look in his jacket, actually pressing his jacket into the seat and feeling into his pockets a little bit, but not going through the pocket but simply pushing the jacket down.
BROWN: And what are you thinking when this is happening?
PUESCHEL: I am thinking -- I'm thinking something is going on. It's raising my own suspicion a little bit. Not so much making me uncomfortable, but obviously there is some, you know, passenger leaves something on the seat, and the flight attendant actually takes the liberty to take a look at it -- I mean, it's just, kind of -- rises a little bit of suspicion, if you will.
BROWN: And can you characterize -- the flight attendant was male or female?
PUESCHEL: She was --
BROWN: Female.
PUESCHEL: Yes.
BROWN: How she was reacting to all of this?
PUESCHEL: She was acting a little -- she was acting a little odd, if you will. I mean, her activity actually raised the suspicion itself. The fact --
BROWN: Raised your suspicion.
PUESCHEL: My suspicion, yes. They're looking through the jacket, glancing at his book, asking me if I have seen anything peculiar or suspicious about the particular -- about the agent.
BROWN: And did you even know he was a Secret Service agent?
PUESCHEL: No, I did not.
BROWN: OK. And so she says to you, have you noticed anything peculiar about the person sitting next to you. And you say?
PUESCHEL: No. No. I didn't notice anything. Is there something I should be aware of? Is what I actually said.
BROWN: Now, let's be clear about a couple of things. You never see the -- I believe this is correct -- the interaction between the agent and the pilot, correct?
PUESCHEL: That is correct.
BROWN: And -- but to your knowledge, there was no rudeness, hostility, unprofessional behavior, any of that in what you saw in terms of his dealing with anyone in the flight crew or any other passenger?
PUESCHEL: I would agree with that statement. I mean, he appeared to be professionally dressed, he was clean cut. You know, he carried himself with some confidence, but nothing out of the ordinary. He was just a simple -- just a fellow traveler.
BROWN: Were other passengers aware of something amiss going on?
PUESCHEL: I don't really know. I know later in the flight there was discussion behind me, in a row behind me, but not at that time.
BROWN: And did the pilot or any of the flight crew ever say anything about the incident once you all took off?
PUESCHEL: Yeah, the captain did come on and make a statement that there was one passenger that had a discrepancy in his paperwork, or something to that extent, and that's when I, you know, put two and two together, that that was the gentleman sitting to my left, that he didn't come back on the plane.
BROWN: Thanks for coming in. It's pretty strange how you end up in the center of these hurricanes...
PUESCHEL: Absolutely.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: ... that are media and the rest. Nice to meet you.
PUESCHEL: Great. Thank you.
BROWN: Mark Pueschel, who was a witness, not the only one, but who has a story about how this all played out right around Christmas day.
Up next, who's really in charge in Afghanistan. A journalists who says it may not be who you think. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: There are some larger-than-life characters who have emerged out of the war in Afghanistan -- the one-eyed Taliban leader, Mullah Omar, and it goes without saying -- but we'll say it anyway -- Osama bin Laden. They have stolen the show so much so that we haven't heard the names of some of the people who will become hugely important players in the months, perhaps years ahead, vital to the country's future.
Peter Maass met some key Afghan players in his travels through the region. He's got some insight on who is really in charge. His reporting will appear this Sunday in "The New York Times Sunday" magazine, always a joy to read, and he is here with us to give us a bit of a preview. Nice to meet you. Welcome.
PETER MAASS, "THE NEW YORK TIMES" MAGAZINE: Thank you.
BROWN: There are actually are a number of warlords, which I don't know how you get that title, by the way, but you focus on one in particular this fellow around Kandahar. Tell us about him.
MAASS: His name is Gul Agha Shirzai, and he's the new governor of Kandahar province, although actually he's been the governor of Kandahar province once before, from '92 to '94. One actually Kandahar province was as violent and as chaotic as it had ever been, which is saying quite a bit.
BROWN: And that's -- that's really the core issue here, is that these people -- forget the central government for a second -- but these people in the provinces, whether it be Kandahar or elsewhere, are not necessarily members of the good neighbor club.
MAASS: No, there is no such thing as a politically correct warlord in Afghanistan. If you look at Gul Agha, for example, his father was a commander in the war against the Soviet occupation. His father was murdered, poisoned by his chef, in fact, and when Gul Agha figured out that it was the chef who poisoned his gather, Gul Agha tied the chef to a tree outside of his house, shot the chef, and then hung the chef's body from a tree branch for a week, so everybody would know what happens when you mess with him.
BROWN: And he now controls -- well, he obviously controls an army; you can't be a warlord without soldiers, I assume.
MAASS: Right.
BROWN: And where does the central government then fit in here? Because we seem to have placed a pretty high bet on this new government in Kabul.
MAASS: Well, as far as Gul Agha and the other warlords of this sort are concerned, the central government is really not much more than a funnel for the aid that the United States government and other governments are supposed to be giving to Afghanistan. And for the most part, the central government in Kabul exercises little real power or influence over what Gul Agha does in Kandahar on any given day.
BROWN: Is this from the U.S. side one of those examples of the enemy of my enemy is my friend? I mean, he may not be the most desirable person on the planet, but, what the heck, he hates the Talibaners.
MAASS: That's precisely it. I mean, the United States had to make sort of a devil's choice. If they wanted to get rid of the Taliban, it was going to have to use people like Gul Agha to get rid of the Taliban, because there are no nice, politically correct warlords in Afghanistan. And so, you really had not much of a choice, if you were sitting in the White House or wherever. You had to use people like Gul Agha, because they were the ones who were going to get the job done, which is to get rid of the Taliban.
BROWN: Is there -- did you see any indication that these -- that these warlords are any more civilized, for lack of a better word, than they were pre-Taliban? Because they -- the chaos of the pre-Taliban times set the stage for the Taliban.
MAASS: Well, Gul Agha, for example, talks a pretty good game now, although that can partly be due to the fact that behind his headquarters there was a squad of Special Forces living and working. He knows what the U.S. wants, he knows what the U.S. wants him to say, and he says it. But at same time, he is still the same man. I mean, he swears like you wouldn't believe. He, you know, blows his nose into his turban, and he orders people around like only warlords do.
BROWN: Fifteen seconds. You make an interesting point that the U.S. may be better off, it's not precisely clear how the Afghans will fare under this change.
MAASS: Exactly. Well, the last time Gul Agha was in power, it was so chaotic and violent that the Taliban were the solution, and if he and the other warlords -- all the same warlords basically are back in power -- perform the same way that they did before, then Afghans will be in just the same situation that they were before, when they turned to the Taliban for a solution.
BROWN: Peter, nice to meet you. Peter Maass, his article appears in the Sunday's "New York Times Sunday" magazine, get that also if you can around the country. Thanks for coming in.
We'll talk with Pat Buchanan in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: I've struggled a bit with this introduction this evening. Pat Buchanan is one of those remarkably polarizing figures in American political life. To many, even in his own party, or what was his party, the Republican Party, his views are harsh, extreme, offensive. Others find him not just smart, but gutsy for saying out loud what many other people think.
Our struggle with this was a bit different. However hard the edge may be, however troubled I am sometimes by his views, I like the guy. He says what he believes -- and believe me, he does believe it. And he is not a man unable to laugh at himself, and we like that a lot.
Mr. Buchanan and I talked earlier today. He's out promoting a new book, and the message is vintage Buchanan. "The Death of the West," it's called, and maybe we should begin by just letting him explain what it's about.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: Lay out the basic premise of the book.
PAT BUCHANAN, AUTHOR, "THE DEATH OF THE WEST": The basic premise of the book is that the West is dying. Its people are dying, from Russia through Europe, and the native born people of the United States, and there is a massive displacement by third world peoples from Asia, Africa and Latin America, who are non-Western, and I think the West is basically, as a civilization, is dying.
BROWN: OK. That's the premise. Let's play with that for a little bit. Why? Why is it happening? Not why should we be concerned about it, which is a different question.
BUCHANAN: The European peoples are not reproducing themselves. Each woman is having an average of 1.4 children; it's not enough to keep a nation alive. It's happening, I believe, because the correlation is absolute between a civilization that loses its faith, its religion, and a civilization dying.
And I believe the loss of the Christian faith in Europe, and Russia, and even in Japan is -- the loss of the religious faith -- the correlation is absolute. That is why people cease reproducing themselves. You will find that the highest rate of birth among European peoples I can find anywhere in the world is a place called Utah.
Why? Because they are very devout Mormons ,there and they have a devout religion. Wherever religion is serious and energized, like in the Islamic world, populations are exploding.
BROWN: You write, I think the numbers correct here, I'm sure you will correct me if I'm wrong, there are about 30 million foreign-born people in the United States today.
BUCHANAN: There are 30 million foreign-born, and 11 million -- eight to 11 million illegal immigrants in America.
BROWN: And the question -- the -- that came to my mind, is, in a sense, so what? I don't know what the number was when my grandparents came just after the turn of the century, but -- what -- there is a pattern of immigration, they come, they struggle a bit, they open delis or butcher shops or something, ultimately they prosper. And from your point of view eventually they vote Republican.
BUCHANAN: Eventually. The difference is, the melting pot that your grandparents and mine came to is broken. When your folks came from Eastern Europe, or mine came from Germany or Scotland, or the plantation, or Ireland, they came here to become Americans.
The new immigration, especially in the Southwest of Mexican Americans into the United States, where Mexicans -- they don't want to become Americans. They want to remain proud Mexicans. They want to keep their Spanish language, their Spanish history and heritage. They want to celebrate Cinco de Mayo. They don't want to become Americans.
They are like the Americans that went into Texas and tore Texas away from Mexico. And so, what I'm arguing is that Balkanization is inevitable when you bring in huge numbers of people who really don't want to be absorbed or simulated or Americanized.
BROWN: Actually, I'm uncomfortable with that huge generalization you just made -- they don't want to, because it seems to me as I look around this city, which is absolutely an immigrant city, in L.A., certainly there are people as you just described, but there is an awful lot of people who in fact are doing everything they can to assimilate, to become Americans, even if it's hyphenated Americans.
BUCHANAN: Well, when you say hyphenated, that's what Woodrow Wilson said, hyphenated Americans got one foot in the old country and one in the new. Are they going to become truly Americans?
This why I argue, Aaron, for stopping immigration cold now, stopping illegal immigration, and beginning the process of assimilation and Americanization of those who are coming here.
But the difference is this. We live in a multicultural society when America's elites are themselves against the melting pot. They tell people, fight for your ethnic entitlement, your racial rights. They don't say all of you, study American history and American heroes. They despise, many of them, America's history and heroes. The crusaders were the latest group to be attacked recently. Before that, it was the explorers, Columbus, our founding fathers who were slave owners, all the Confederate generals were terrible people, the people who won the West.
The point is, America's elites are in a sense, anti-Western, they oppose the melting pot, and they're instructing children to really hate their history and heritage. You can't expect someone coming from China therefore to embrace it.
BROWN: We got about a minute. Let me -- a couple of other things. Do you ever feel like you have been fighting, in a sense, the same fight now for a decade or more that you have been out there making this argument in various forms and shapes, and it hasn't taken?
BUCHANAN: But no, listen, I do believe I have been fighting the cultural war most of my life, and we were winning it under Reagan and Nixon. I do agree with this. The traditionalists like me and the old-school Christians are losing the cultural war. Materialism, hedonism are prevailing among the young more and more and more, and that is why the country that America is going to be in the year 2050 won't even be recognizable to you and me and the folks we grew up with.
BROWN: But is it not possible that you're losing this argument, you're losing this war because the argument you present simply doesn't resonate, and I gently submit to you, maybe you're wrong.
BUCHANAN: Well, there is no doubt -- first, I believe I'm right.
BROWN: Of course.
BUCHANAN: But does it resonate or not? No. I mean, European has utterly ceased to be Christian. What is it? What is it? It is no longer that, but the Islamic people who are moving in in great numbers and who will eventually become a near majority in there, they know who they are. They know the civilization they want to create. We bought into la dolce vita, and it's bye-bye American pie.
BROWN: I love a guy who brings a rock title in in the middle of the culture wars. Will you come back and talk to us some more?
BUCHANAN: Oh, listen, I'd love to, because this is very much with me. And you will read the book, won't you?
BROWN: I will absolutely read the book. Nice to see you.
BUCHANAN: Thank you. Good seeing you.
BROWN: Pat Buchanan, nice to have you. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We had this idea about how we wanted to end this program tonight, and we just changed it in the break. For a couple of reasons -- I want to go back to ground zero for a bit. We haven's seen it in a while, and on a day when an American soldier, the first American soldier to die from hostile fire in Afghanistan, it's probably a pretty good day for us to end at ground zero.
Today, the official count dropped below 2,900. It's almost sickening to say that, isn't it, 2,895 is the number. And they found at least 12 bodies on New Year's Day. They have now identified seven of them as New York City firefighters. That particular misery, the death of so many of New York's bravest continues to permeate the city. The funerals and the grief from all of that.
The site has changed enormously. The large cranes are out. Smaller work now being done. But bodies continue to be found. People continue to gather there and from time to time, even four months later, we need to come back and look at it and be reminded of what happened there on the 11th of September.
Have a terrific weekend. We'll see you all on Monday. Thanks for joining us this week. I'm Aaron Brown in New York. Good night from all of us at NEWSNIGHT.
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