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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Was Andrea Yates Sick Enough to be Sent To Prison?
Aired January 07, 2002 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: ... not to be confused with our senior executive producer David Borman, said to me today that last week's program seemed depressing. Jen was off last week and watched the program the way you do from home. It was a telling comment.
Last week, right to the bitter end, the death of Sergeant Nathan Chapman in an ambush in Afghanistan, was pretty unpleasant stuff. Maybe that's why I've been so cranky today.
Tonight's discussion of Andrea Yates is not likely to make Jen or the rest of us feel much better. Many key facts here are not disputed. Ms. Yates killed her five young children. She had suffered depression for many years, twice tried to kill herself.
The issue in the end will not be, was Ms. Yates sick, but whether in the eyes of the law was she sick enough, sick enough to be sent to a hospital for help or to prison, or to death row.
Whatever the answer, and I won't pretend here I have no opinion, it is about as sad a case as we can imagine. A jury is going to have to make this call. It's why jurors get the big bucks, $25 a day. Be glad it won't be you. It's probably the saddest thing we'll deal with tonight, and it's plenty sad enough.
It begins our whip around the world and the correspondents covering it. Ed Lavandera is covering the case. He's in Houston. Ed, a headline from you tonight, please.
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, today begins the long and tedious process of selecting a jury that will hear this case, which indeed as you've mentioned is very sad, and it is a very emotional decision that jurors will be faced with here in Houston as they decide whether or not Andrea Yates will and if be sentenced to death, if it reaches that point in this case.
Andrea Yates was in the courtroom today, and so was the rest of her family. We'll have more on that in a little bit. Aaron, back to you.
BROWN: Ed, thank you. Now to the White House, where the President made another promise about taxes, John King, our Senior White House Correspondent on the law. John, a headline from you, please. JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the Chairman of the Federal Reserve, Alan Greenspan, was on hand today so the President's language was a bit more polite. No talk like he said over the weekend that taxes would be raised, "over my dead body."
But the President once again defended that big tax cut of last year and he said the war and the recession, not his tax cut, were responsible for the fact that the government no longer in surplus, but back to deficit spending. Aaron.
BROWN: John, back to you shortly. We don't want to neglect the war, of course, in Afghanistan, so to Kandahar now, CNN's Bill Hemmer. Bill, a headline from you tonight.
BILL HEMMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the most intense U.S. air strikes still being carried out right now, the most intense we have seen in a week's time right now. The targets in eastern Afghanistan, al Qaeda and Taliban fighters and also weapons, loads of weapons found inside tunnel complexes, in mountains in that area. Details in a moment on those air strikes. Aaron.
BROWN: Bill, thank you. Back to all of you shortly. Also tonight, back to the bad old days in parts of Afghanistan. There may be a government in Kabul, but the bandits are in charge of much of the rest of the country.
We also tonight begin something called Segment 7. More on the name and the mission later. The topic tonight, how to rebuild and remember Ground Zero.
Also a hero from a different war, flying a B-24 bomber when he was just 22. The World War II veteran who'd run for President decades later, a talk with Senator George McGovern.
And New York's Mayor ushers in a new era of cubicle chic. We'll talk to the enemy of cubicles everywhere, the man behind Dilbert, Scott Adams.
And the mystery guest is back, and for those of you who are paying your first visit to NEWSNIGHT, that's where our staff picks a guest and it doesn't tell me who it is. Of course, on any other news broadcast, they'd get fired. Here they get a raise. Go figure.
It's a good hour ahead. We begin in Houston with Andrea Yates. We've laid out the basics here. We have five dead children. We have a depressed mother who killed them, and a legal system who must sort it out, what is fair, what is right and what is just.
Once again, we turn to CNN's Ed Lavandera in Houston. Ed, good evening.
LAVENDERA: Aaron, about 60 prospective jurors were inside this Harris County courtroom today, and tomorrow nine of those prospective jurors will be individually questioned, and that will happen for the next couple of weeks until 12 jurors and two alternates are picked to hear this case. We were able to speak briefly with some of the family members, Andrea Yates' family members today and they describe Andrea as anxious and nervous about the future.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LAVANDERA (voice over): Russell Yates wound his way into the Houston Courts Building for the beginning of what will be a long and painful trial. Andrea Yates isn't wearing the orange prison uniforms in court anymore, and she showed no emotion as she sat face-to-face with 60 prospective jurors. Twelve of those people will decide whether she should die for drowning her five children.
Before Andrea Yates confessed to the murders, the 37-year-old mother spent two years in and out of therapy, talking to doctors and taking high-powered depression medications.
Then on June 20th of last year, just 29 days after checking out of the last psychiatric hospital, the phone call to 911.
911: Are you having a disturbance? Are you ill? Or what?
YATES: Yes, I'm ill.
911: Do you need an ambulance?
YATES: No, I need a police officer. Yeah, send an ambulance.
LAVANDERA: When an officer arrived, Andrea Yates showed him what had just happened. From the beginning, her family and supporters blamed postpartum psychosis. But that theory was challenged last summer when prosecutors announced they would seek the death penalty in this case.
CHARLES ROSENTHAL, HARRIS COUNTRY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: A lot of the people who had prejudged this case and who are sympathetic to the defendant, don't know the facts.
LAVANDERA: A judge's gag order prevents family members and doctors who know the most about Yates' battle with depression and psychosis from talking publicly. But a key witness is expected to be Dr. Mohammed Said. He was Andrea Yates' last doctor, who wrote three months before the murders that she "presents a substantial risk of serious harm to self and others."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LAVANDERA (on camera): Andrea Yates has pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity, and in the State of Texas, the legal definition for insanity means that at the time of the murders, whether or - the question is whether or not Andrea Yates knew exactly what she was doing. Medical testimony will try to prove that one way or the other, depending on which side the evidence is being presented by.
Russell Yates, Andrea's husband, is expected to testify. Jury selection is expected to take more than a month. The trial is also anticipated to take about a month as well, so we're looking at the end of March before this case is over. Aaron, back to you.
BROWN: One quick one. I don't mean to split a hair here. I'm not sure what the right answer is. Is it that she knew what she was doing or that she knew what she was doing was wrong?
LAVANDERA: You're correct. It is what she was doing was wrong, and of course, that is up to a lot of debate and a lot of the people who will be called to testify in this case will have to sift through the medical evidence before Andrea Yates committed these murders, and evidence from interviews that have happened since she's been in the jail here in Harris County.
BROWN: Ed, thank you. Ed Lavandera who's in Houston, Texas tonight, and we'll have more on the Yates case a little bit later in the hour.
A couple of other items before we get there, to Tampa, Florida now and the very strange and sad case, the 15-year-old Charles Bishop. Hard to know what to make of this story, because tonight we're getting two very different pictures of this young man. There is that and then there's also a larger question about Homeland Security that's in play.
But here's what we know, that Saturday he stole an airplane, a small plane. He buzzed a runway at McDill Air Force Base near Tampa, came within 1,000 feet of an airliner, and then crashed into a downtown skyscraper. Police found a note in his pocket expressing sympathy for Osama bin Laden. Teachers at the high school, where he was an honor student, say that's just not the person they knew.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GABRIELLA TERRY, JOURNALISM TEACHER: He told me he wanted to join the United States Air Force because he wanted to do something good for his country.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: About McDill Air Base, U.S. Special Central Command is headquartered there. That's where the War in Afghanistan is being run. It's home to General Tommy Franks. When asked how Bishop could have been allowed to come so close, a spokesman said they went with their gut on this one. He said the plane took no aggressive action. Their feeling, he said, was not to make more of it than it probably was.
President Bush heard about the incident while he was in Portland, Oregon over the weekend. He was there laying the groundwork for an economic stimulus package which is now called the Economic Security Plan. And as we mentioned in the quote of the weekend, he said there would be a tax increase "over my dead body."
Though no one has actually proposing a tax increase, something his Treasury Secretary acknowledged yesterday, it's the politics of domestic policy and here, unlike the war, the President will meet stiff resistance. So we go back to the White House and our Senior White House Correspondent John King. John, good evening. KING: It is early in the new year, Aaron, but welcome to a Congressional election year. The President said today, all those Democrats who say his big tax cut was the wrong idea in the middle of a recession don't understand the most basics of economics.
But the President also made clear in his remarks today, he understands very well the role the economy will play in his own job security. Mr. Bush took credit for winning the war in Afghanistan, but he said his administration now must do more and urgently so to help the unemployed here at home.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KING (voice over): Back to work at the White House, a new year with new budget realities, including the return of deficit spending. Mr. Bush says he is not to blame.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I said to the American people that this nation might have to run deficits in time of war, in times of a national emergency, or in times of a recession. And we're still in all three.
KING: The economy is Priority 1 for the President, the Federal Reserve Chairman invited to discuss both short and long-term policy options. Mr. Bush says he still hopes to reach agreement with Congress on a short-term stimulus plan.
BUSH: So the question I'm going to ask, and the question I hope Congress asks, is how best to create jobs? What can we do to encourage economic growth so that people who want to work can find work?
KING: But election year politics will complicate things. Democrats, led by Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, blame the Bush tax cut for turning surpluses into deficits. Daschle stopped short of calling for a repeal of the tax cut, but Mr. Bush once again just about dared Democrats to try.
BUSH: There is some talk about raising taxes. That would be a disaster to raise taxes in the midst of a recession.
KING: House Democratic Leader Dick Gephardt took issue. In a statement he said, "I have not heard one Democrat say he or she wants to raise taxes. This is a partisan blame game, and it has no place in the debate about the future economic health of this country."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: With a Republican President on one side, the Democrats on the other, perhaps today a chance for the Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan to split the difference, offer the road to compromise. Reporters tried to ask him what he thought about all this, but the President cut off the questioning, saying he decides who gets to ask and answer the questions in his house. Aaron.
BROWN: I guess that ended that. Well there is a question of fact here. To you knowledge, is there anyone in government, in the Congress, who is actually saying we ought to raise taxes?
KING: No one in a position of authority within the Democratic Party. Some have said perhaps you should look at repealing or trimming back the out years is the Washington term, years five through ten of the tax cut. Perhaps some of that should be trimmed back. The President again is almost daring them to do that, thinking in an election year, proposing a tax increase would be a disaster for the Democratic Party. The leadership of the Democratic Party says that will not happen.
But they do, Aaron, have a tough time answering the question. They say the need is to get back to surpluses that that keeps mortgage rates down, long-term interest rates down. The Democrats though, say they want some more tax cuts as well. What would they cut is the question that will come up in the weeks and months ahead, a question the President will face as well though.
BROWN: It's a long year to November, John, thank you. John King, our Senior White House Correspondent tonight.
On to Afghanistan, there was a moment today when Bagram Air Base looked a bit like Hartsfield International, which of course as you know, is the busiest airport in the world.
Britain's Prime Minister Tony Blair was there on a stopover. A Senate delegation was also there, Senators Joe Lieberman and John McCain among them. They met with Prime Minister Karzai and promised him the United States would not abandon Afghanistan once the war is over.
Tomorrow night on the program, we'll talk with members of the delegation about what they saw and what they think. Tonight, we go back to Kandahar, with signs that what's left of the enemy is trying to regroup and that U.S. warplanes are in the sky trying to prevent just that. In Kandahar for us tonight, CNN's Bill Hemmer. Bill, good morning.
HEMMER: Aaron, hello. Good morning from Kandahar. The most intense U.S. strikes to date that we have seen in about seven days' time right now being carried out in eastern Afghanistan. In fact, we heard the jet fighters streaking through the night sky about four and a half hours ago, 3:00 in the morning local time here in Afghanistan.
On the other end of that, CNN's Kamal Hyder and his crew heard the bombs drop. Again the area we're talking about, eastern Afghanistan near the town of Ghowst. That is just south of Tora Bora, just south of the town of Jalalabad.
We are told from the Pentagon the strong possibility of al Qaeda fighters and Taliban fighters possibly trying to regroup and recollect and resurface, possibly trying to fight once again. They are one target in this, and the other target, the Pentagon says they have found loads of weapons and loads of ammunition stowed away and stored away in tunnel complexes in eastern Afghanistan. In fact, they say they found a few tanks inside as well. The Pentagon indicating that it is easier to hit these sites by bombs dropped from the air, as opposed to sending in ground troops on the ground. So in fact, that's what they're carrying out at this time. All this started late Sunday afternoon at about 4:00 local time, and again it continues 36 hours later.
It should also be pointed out, in that same region in Jalalabad, the town I just mentioned, our CNN crews on the ground spotted several hundred U.S. military members in the past 24 hours unloading there at a local airport. In addition, about six helicopters, combat helicopters most probably loaded up with Special Forces, moving into that area of Tora Bora, and 20 all terrain vehicles were spotted as well.
And, Aaron, on a day when Tommy Franks said things are winding down in Tora Bora, it appears on the ground it's anything but. But difficult to ascertain what exactly is taking place there right now, but certainly the activity is ongoing. Aaron.
BROWN: I actually have a couple of quick things. One, very quickly do you know, when they talked about al Qaeda fighters, how many people are they talking about, any idea?
HEMMER: No telling there in eastern Afghanistan. One report said there may be as many as 300 though in the town of Kandahar, which is about seven or eight miles from where we are here. Aaron.
BROWN: OK and the other thing, do you have anything more on the detainees and the their movement to Guantanamo?
HEMMER: Here's what we're finding out right now, very delicate and sensitive, you can imagine, a sensitive operation, trying to move hundreds, if not thousands, of suspected terrorists halfway around the world to Cuba.
The word we're getting from sources here at the airport, Aaron, is that they're going to go by air, not by ship, and possibly sooner than later, perhaps even in a couple days' time. But as you can imagine, this is highly classified, top secret movements. It will most probably originate in the dead of night, and certainly if the military can have its way, nobody is going to know about this operation. Aaron.
BROWN: OK. Bill, thank you. That just makes our job that much harder, doesn't it? Thank you. Bill Hemmer in Kandahar with the developments there.
In a moment, we'll return to the Andrea Yates story too, over the questions of sanity, responsibility. Ultimately, whether this is a sick woman or an evil woman. We'll be joined by a psychiatrist, and an advocate for victim's rights when NEWSNIGHT continues on a Monday.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We want to spend some more time now on this thorny matter of Andrea Yates, why she did what she did, what ought to become of her. And in doing so, we begin with a note of caution. No one, none of us for sure, can know for certain what was in her mind. Those who blame mental illness, including her husband, may be wrong. So many of those who say it was just plain evil, and at the end of the day we do know this, five children are dead. That we do know.
With that in mind, we are pleased to be joined by a couple of guests tonight, Dr. Stuart Yudofsky who teaches psychiatry at Baylor College of Medicine. He's in Houston, alongside Dianne Clements, the co-founder of Justice for All, a group that advocates the rights of victims. Welcome to you both.
Doctor, I know you're in a kind of delicate professional situation here because you have not examined her. So let me try and frame the question in a way you can answer it. Based on what you know, what her husband has said, what is - is this someone who should be sent to prison?
DR. STUART YUDOFSKY, PSYCHIATRIST, BAYLOR COLLEGE OF MEDICINE: Well, there are many people, like Andrea Yates, who suffer from brain illnesses. Postpartum psychosis is very rare, but it is as much of a brain illness as a heart attack.
And with this illness, it is very unlikely that she knew what she was doing and would be responsible for killing children, anymore than if someone were to have a heart attack and were to have killed children accidentally by running them over with a car.
BROWN: And just to narrow this slightly, doctor, would someone in that situation know right from wrong?
YUDOFSKY: The hallmark of someone with postpartum psychosis is, is that they can not interpret reality. They often hear voices telling them to do things that they wouldn't ordinarily do. They believe things are true that aren't true.
I've heard of cases where mothers thought their children were demons, that yellow types of smoke was coming out of their mouths. They hallucinated that, and in no way would they be able to interpret reality from non-reality.
BROWN: OK. Now let's turn to Ms. Clements for a second. You've read, I assume, all the same things the rest of us have read. Based on what you know, you believe - do you believe she ought to be executed by the way, or she ought to be imprisoned?
DIANNE CLEMENTS, CO-FOUNDER, JUSTICE FOR ALL: Well, based on what I know, I don't know anything because I clearly am not a professional and I don't know what the state's case will be. No one knows what the state will present until we have a jury, and until 12 jurors make that decision.
So if she is found guilty of the Murder, if she's found guilty of capital Murder, I think the appropriate punishment is the death penalty. That's up the jury to decide, and I don't know what they will. BROWN: And to this point, you have not heard anything that has led you to an opinion one way or another, is that correct?
CLEMENTS: Well, my opinion is that the state believes that Andrea Yates was not suffering from a psychotic postpartum psychosis. I can decide with the state in these cases, because I believe they are the only ones that have a concern for these five children today, and I think the state will put the evidence forward that the jury will be required to make an assessment on. And I'm certain they have experts who will differ with the expert opinion of her defense counsel.
So it's going to come down to who believes whom, and I think the state probably will prevail.
BROWN: Doctor, let me go back to you for a second, and just more broadly deal with this.
YUDOFSKY: Yes.
BROWN: Do you think, sir, that we as a society have trouble with the notion that someone can be so sick that they could kill their five children or do something equally heinous, if there's such a thing, and not know right from wrong? That we really don't believe that as a society?
YUDOFSKY: Yes, not just with such extreme problems and conditions as postpartum psychosis in which there might be a murder involved, but with almost all mental illnesses. Pervasively, people who have mental illnesses suffer from stigma.
Now we know that these illnesses are no different from any other types of illnesses involving bodily organs. In this case, it's the brain. At this point, we don't have x-rays to show that someone has a broken brain. Our research is coming to the point that we will have that.
At that point, just like with seizure disorders and Parkinson's Disease, we'll be able to understand the people who do things that they wouldn't ordinarily do, because their brain is broken are not criminals but deserve treatment and compassion.
BROWN: But doctor -
CLEMENTS: If we decide everybody -
BROWN: Ms. Clements, I'm sorry.
CLEMENTS: I'm sorry.
BROWN: Let's do this. Let's invite you both back and we'll continue this conversation. The trial's going to go on for a while and this conversation ought to as well. Thank you both for joining us from Houston tonight, very much.
YUDOFSKY: Thank you, Aaron.
CLEMENTS: Thank you very much.
YUDOFSKY: I apologize for interrupting. I hate that. A few other high-profile cases made news today. Let's quickly deal with them. The Supreme Court today rejected an attempt by Terry Nichols to block a state trial in the Oklahoma City bombing case.
A conviction in the state case could carry the death sentence. Nichols, of course, was already convicted in the Federal trial for his role in the bombing, and received life without parole there, but the state wants to try him now.
And a former Black Panther on trial for Murder faced a Contempt of Court charge today in Atlanta. Jamal al-Amin, known as H. Rap Brown back in the '60s, was found in contempt for violating a judge's gag order. He gave a telephone interview to the New York Times.
Amin is charged with killing a sheriff's deputy two years ago. He is an Iman in a mosque in Atlanta. His supporters say he will not be able to get a fair trial because he is a Muslim.
Still ahead tonight on NEWSNIGHT, law and order in Afghanistan, not a lot to it. A CNN producer who knows the danger joins us when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We talked a lot over the last couple of weeks about the new government that's being formed in Afghanistan. We were reminded over the last few days how difficult it's going to be to govern the place. The capitol, Kabul, may be safer. Life is surely better.
But outside the capitol, and outside the presence of U.S. forces, it remains in many ways a nasty place. If you have money or something that can be turned into money, you are at risk. And these days, the people with money in Afghanistan are reporters, including our own.
Until recently, we had a crew in Jalalabad. They were lucky to get out with the shirts on their back. Ingrid is a producer there. She joins us from Islamabad, a better place to be today. Welcome, Ingrid.
INGRID FORMANEK, CNN PRODUCER: Good evening, Aaron.
BROWN: Tell me about just trying to get out - there's a story here about trying to get out of the hotel in Jalalabad, and what you went through and what they demanded of you. Why don't we start there?
FORMANEK: All right. It's difficult in most places in Jalalabad, not only inside the hotel, but outside of the hotel. The entire province is controlled by different groups of militias who have different allegiances to different warlords.
Our experience of leaving the hotel was a very unpleasant one. Journalists are one of the few sources of revenue for anybody in Afghanistan. We arrive in the country with satellite phones, with cars, and we need protection from the bandits and warring militia. So we had in our employ a group of militias whose allegiance was to one of the warlords, but as we prepared to leave the hotel, everybody saw the opportunity for one more grab at money and goods, if you will. We went into negotiations with the hotel that lasted nearly 24 hours to simply, not just pay the bill, but to pay for extra nights.
When we were reluctant to do so, because it is very important that you stand down in the face of men with guns because that just gives them an opportunity to ask for more and more.
But when we stood firm, mysteriously, 40, 50 armed men showed up at the hotel sort of as reinforcements on the hotel owners behalf, and the pressure was put on for us to cough up the money. And in addition, they asked for goods such as television, whatever food items we had, and they were taken not literally at gunpoint, but they were exacted from us by force.
In fact, I have a receipt that somebody signed for extortion, and it was extortion. And the story was very similar to other journalists. Even when trying to do news gathering, we went up the mountain.
We had a CNN team go up to Tora Bora one day, the last known hiding place of Osama bin Laden, and were stopped by a group of militias who demanded $1,000 to go up the mountain. And they went into negotiations with us and with our security guards, and had we not had them, it would have probably cost us more to even get off the mountain. So those are just two examples of how things work in Jalalabad.
BROWN: Just quickly, is there any evidence that the central government, the government in Kabul, is governing these cities like Jalalabad and outside the capitol?
FORMANEK: There's virtually no control of cities like Jalalabad and other outlying provinces from Kabul by the central government. There's already problems within that interim government as you very well know, divisions, and especially along the tribal regions along the Pakistani border. Allegiances are more tribal, rather than to a government.
So even in the Taliban days, allegiances were tribal, and certainly there's no control in the central government and it's rule of the gun, and unfortunately this is something the Afghan people have to live with every day. We're paid for this job. We do it. We get out. But this is a reality that Afghans have to live with every single day.
BROWN: Ingrid, I'm glad you're safe in Islamabad, and thanks for spending some time with us this morning. Thank you. I can't wait for the budget controller to see the receipt that says, for extortion.
Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, a war hero and part of political history, George McGovern remembers his days as a bomber pilot, a hero, in a moment. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: A troubling story came out over the weekend about one of America's most respected historians. Stephen Ambrose admitted that sentences and phrases in his new book "The Wild Blue" were copied from the work of another historian. "The Wild Blue" is a new book about World War II bomber pilots. And recently I was able to talk to the focus of the Ambrose book, best known as a one-time presidential candidate to most of you. But during World War II George McGovern was just another young, smart American kid facing some very dangerous missions.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): When the Army Air Force gave George McGovern a B- 24 bomber to fly, he was barely 22-years-old.
GEORGE MCGOVERN, FORMER SENATOR, SOUTH DAKOTA: I went into combat actually with a feeling of exhilaration. I thought after two and a half years of training, and practice, now I'm ready to go. But when the first piece of flak tore through the windshield of our bomber in combat, from that point on I knew war was a deadly business. When I saw planes going down, disappearing in front of my eyes I knew we were engaged in a war to the death.
BROWN: Mcgovern's B-24 was one of America's principal weapons in that war. Thousands were manufactured. Practically all flown by men like George McGovern, men barely old enough to vote.
(on camera): Will you talk to me a little bit about the airplane, the B-24? Was it a good, great, memorable airplane?
MCGOVERN: The B-24 was the biggest airplane we had at that time, until the B-29 came along near the end of the war. It was a very difficult airplane to fly. I don't say that boastfully. Every B-24 pilot will tell you that. I have gone on missions where I saw all- American football players who were then pilots, who had to be lifted out of the pilot's seat. It was a tough airplane to fly.
BROWN (voice-over): Until recently, Senator McGovern hasn't talked much about his experiences in World War II. He led his crew on 35 missions, some milk runs. Many though, very, very dangerous. He received the distinguished Flying Cross.
(on camera): Does time make war, in your memory, less painful and more heroic? Or is it the other way around? Does it seem sharper and deadlier in retrospect?
MCGOVERN: I think time is a great healer. I frankly had a great many unpleasant thoughts for a long time about my experiences in World War II, particularly the killing of my navigator, whom we lost in combat. People that you were with, laughing with, talking with just few hours before suddenly incinerated. Those experiences stayed with me for some time. I seldom talked about World War II.
BROWN (voice-over): But historian Steven Ambrose convinced McGovern to talk and the result was a best-selling book, "The Wild Blue." It's about B-24 pilots. But mostly, it's about McGovern and his crew.
MCGOVERN: He centers on my crew and on me as a pilot in indicating what crews and pilots went through in that experience. I must say that book alone forced me to relive every day that I spent in military combat.
BROWN: McGovern, of course, went on to become a United States senator. He ran for the presidency in 1972, campaigning against the Vietnam War. He was crushed by Richard M. Nixon.
(on camera): Do you think people are surprised, given your anti- war record in Vietnam, do you think they're surprised to find out you were not only in the service but you were a hero of World War II?
MCGOVERN: They are surprised. I can't walk down the street in any town or city in America without people commenting in that direction. How could one of the leading opponents of American involvement in Vietnam, in that war, have been a dedicated combat bomber pilot in World War II?
The answer is very simple, I thought World War II was absolutely essential as far as the American effort was concerned. Hitler, Tojo and Mussolini actually posed a threat to the very survival of western civilization. Not so in Vietnam. We had no interest there, we had no business being involved there and yet we sent some of the bravest young men we've ever produced to die in that mistaken conflict.
BROWN: McGovern says he thinks a lot these days about his experiences under fire in World War II. And thinks, too, about today's war and today's soldiers.
(on camera): In that line of despots that you talked about earlier, Mussolini, and Hitler, and Tojo, does bin Laden fit in that, or is he not quite at that level yet?
MCGOVERN: Well, he's not at that level yet. He's a bitter, twisted man who has developed a hatred for the United States and apparently for all things western, western civilization.
BROWN (voice-over): As with many former soldiers nowadays, George McGovern is pausing to reflect, reflecting on a time in his life when the world changed and he helped change it. A time that gave him strength.
MCGOVERN: I do think that with the passage of time, you begin to see things more clearly. You begin to think about the good experiences you had in combat and I think your pride of having participated in a great effort like that helped to sustain you and give force to your life.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Senator George McGovern a conversation we had a few weeks back. Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, Michael Bloomberg doesn't mind them, but our next guest has made a career out of bashing them. Made a lot of people laugh too. Scott Adams, better known as Dilbert, on hating cubicles. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Well like a lot of things at NEWSNIGHT, our offices in New York are a work in progress. It may be a while. We can't seem to lay it out so everyone gets the corner office he or she or I truly deserve. So until it shakes out, we are all spending our days in a bull pen. Our writers tell me at this point they would kill for cubicles, which would at least get them even with city hall.
New York's new mayor today took the wraps off his new office. Mike Bloomberg and his team turned a wing of offices into a world of cubicles. The mayor is the center of it all, out there in the open. I can't imagine Rudy Giuliani going this route. Mr. Bloomberg worked this way at his TV financial network. He says he believes in openness. He says, rather, it raises everyone to the same level. Is this, dare we say, the start of cubicle chic? It used to be something to poke fun at, and if they aren't anymore, what's next for Dilbert? Who speaks for him here? Scoot Adams is who and oddly enough just by coincidence Scott is with us tonight. He joins us from San Francisco, nice to see you.
SCOTT ADAMS, CREATOR OF DILBERT: Thank you. Nice to be here.
BROWN: Did you ever work in a cubicle? You have written about them for a while?
ADAMS: Yes. I spent a long sentence in several cubicles. First at a big bank and then at the phone company.
BROWN: Was there anything about them you liked when you worked in them?
ADAMS: I wish that I had been around when I had a good Internet connection with unfiltered access. Because if you have an Internet connection in your cubicle you have your music and your gambling and your porn. All you need is to wear dark glasses and give yourself a hangover and it is like being in Las Vegas.
BROWN: But everyone else can watch you do all those things.
ADAMS: But not if you position your monitor just right. And you really want to make sure that you are working for a boss who is not taller than the wall of your cubicle, because there is nothing more frightening than seeing this huge old boss-head kind of coming up over the cubicle wall.
BROWN: Yes, we have seen that in the drawings. Do people write you all the time saying, boy, you got that right, or you are missing the point of these cubicles?
ADAMS: I don't get a lot of supporters of the cubicle writing to me, no. Most people are saying, their cubicle is basically like a prison cell without the benefit of plumping.
BROWN: Do you understand why some bosses, Mr. Bloomberg likes them, do you get that?
ADAMS: I'm thinking in his case it's an inspirational message. He is trying to tell people that if you work hard, that you too could some day be a billionaire and work in a six-foot square burlap-covered box.
BROWN: Doesn't that sound like a great incentive? Someone asked me today if I would like a cubicle and I said certainly not. I couldn't see the advantage of it at all. Do you remember when it dawned on you first that this would be a great gag to use for a character?
ADAMS: I didn't realize that the cubicle would almost become a character in the script. I miss -- I guess I didn't realize the extent of people's hatred for their little box.
BROWN: And so when you started drawing it, the cubicle was just something you put in and all of a sudden Dilbert and the cubicle became a kind of inseparable item?
ADAMS: I think I'm luckiest cartoonist in the world, because all my backgrounds are just rectangles. I have the easiest job in the world. It's great.
BROWN: I'm not so sure it's easy, but I do think cartoonist are among the luckiest people in the world given how they make a living. Do you ever get tired of it, drawing the same characters, the same ideas?
ADAMS: It's pretty big cast so I get to change them around a little bit. There is something to the notion that there are only 100 jokes in the world, so everybody is just kind of recycling them. So, I feel that way little bit. But I wake up every day and I'm so happy I'm not in a cubicle, and I am so happy I can work at home and pet my cats. I can't complain.
BROWN: And we can't complain for having you join us. We are delighted the mayor decided to do cubicles which gave us an excuse to call you today, Scott. Thank you for joining us tonight.
ADAMS: Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you, when we come back -- oh, no -- the mystery guest in a moment. This if NEWSNIGHT, what else?
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BROWN: OK, we haven't done this for a while with good reason. It's time for the mystery guest, known to everyone on the staff at NEWSNIGHT all day, except for me. This has turned into a bit of a contest of wills between me and the staff. The last time they tried to do this I scored a spectacular victory when I met the mystery guest moments before the broadcast in the greenroom, Chef Anthony Bordaine (ph) , in effect spoiling everyone's fun.
No such luck tonight, not at all. I have no idea who is about to join us for a conversation. This is absolutely on the up and up. So, someone is going to walk in, in just a moment and you can start e- mailing while we go. So, go to the page where it has the name. I haven't seen this page -- c'mon, all the way, let's go, here we go -- joining me now is the designer, Joseph Abboud. He is here to talk about the retirement of Yves Saint-Laurent and other things.
Hello, Mr. Abboud. Nice to see you.
JOSEPH ABBOUD, DESIGNER: How are you? Nice to see you.
BROWN: Have a seat. And may I say, you look fabulous tonight.
ABBOUD: And so do you.
BROWN: Thank you very much. Actually there is a lot of things we could talk about. Do you really want to talk about Yves Saint- Laurent?
ABBOUD: Whatever you want to talk about.
BROWN: Why is that notable in fashion? What does that mean in the world of fashion?
ABBOUD: He is one of the great names in fashion and after 40 years of great success it is notable and he has just been an incredible talent.
BROWN: And were you surprised when you heard he was retiring?
ABBOUD: I think when you spend that much energy for that long a time and to see where the world is going in fashion, I think he has had enough, but left a great legacy.
BROWN: When you say where the world is going in fashion, does that mean where you are taking it?
ABBOUD: Well, I would like to think so. But think about it. Our business is 13 years old. he has been this business for 40 years. To be able to sustain that is very difficult in this industry. This is a tough, tough industry. So all of us in the industry all over the world applaud him.
BROWN: Can we talk about something serious for a minute?
BROWN: You are Lebanese by descent, right? We know each other -- let's be honest here, but I didn't know you were coming to New York.
ABBOUD: I am thrilled to be here.
BROWN: Thank you, I'm delighted to recognize someone walk into the door at this moment.
You had a moment right after September 11 where the FBI was looking. You want to tell the story?
ABBOUD: Yes, there were four separate situations with the FBI, which has now become my chronicles. I probably have a very thick file. But I must say, a lot of it was circumstance. I had taken a plane out on the night of September 10 and I believe and through the information I got from the FBI, I think that plane was supposed to have been targeted for a hijacking.
And I ended up, I know you know this, I ended up taking a limo back from Santa Barbara because I had no other way of getting back to New York. My family was really concerned. I think some of it might have been that they recognized a Middle Eastern name.
BROWN: Some people rent cars.
ABBOUD: Yes, I suppose, but I couldn't find anybody to do it with me. But I think the name being Middle Eastern might have sent up a red flag, but I think it was really that flight. Later I found out that that flight was probably targeted.
BROWN: And when you hear this -- these conversations about profiling and the story about the Secret Service agent, what do you think?
ABBOUD: Well, I had no problem with any of the four agents that I spoke to. They were all very professional. They were all very courteous. I think they asked normal obvious questions about why I was doing what I was doing. I never felt threatened and I just think because of the situation unfortunately, so many Arab-Americans feel that we -- you know it's given us a bad name. It's not been a happy time for us, but I think most of us who love America, who believe in this country understand it completely.
BROWN: Final question, do you really believe a light like that is appropriate for this time of year?
ABBOUD: That's only something I can answer, and I think the answer is yes.
BROWN: Thank you. It is wonderful to see you and for everything else. Joe Abboud, the mystery guest.
And segment seven and an explanation for that in a moment. We will be right back.
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BROWN: He told me it looks better if I button the coat. Remember the night I explained how we arrived at the title NEWSNIGHT, we do the news at night? It is that same creative streak that brought us to this moment, a nightly feature we have decided to call "Segment 7." It is going to be a place for a story we just like. It may or may not fit in the day's news. It may be serious, it may be funny provocative. It may just be a neat story, but it will run in "Segment 7." Why segment 7? Let's put it this way, we have done six segments so far, so this would be, right, segment seven. Tonight the first salvo in what is likely to be a long and contentious fight here in New York: What to do with ground zero? Consider just a couple of issues. Ground Zero will always be a graveyard. They will never find all the missing lost there and it will always be a symbol of American capitalism. That's why it was hit. Can those two visions be squared? Here is CNN's Garrick Utley.
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GARRICK UTLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is already a shrine with its pilgrims. With its memories that are more powerful than any memorial that will be erected here. Look at the 16 acres where the World Trade Center stood and ask which comes first, a memorial? Or rebuilding? The answer from city officials is both.
JOHN WHITEHEAD, CHAIRMAN, NYC REDEVELOPMENT BOARD: I visualize other office buildings being built in the general region of 40 or 50 or 60 stories.
MONICA IKEN, WIDOW: It is going to be about money, obviously. That is just the way it is. The world is about money and the towers were about money. There was a financial district.
UTLEY: Monica Iken's husband Michael died in the south tower, the second building to be struck. His wife has become an outspoken voice among the families of the victims who want the entire site turned into a memorial.
IKEN: Originally, people were saying, well, OK maybe we can have it maybe just where the towers stood, which is about six acres, and make that into something to remember the lives that were lost. Or we could then build around it. However, now, we are seeing that that can't be what it is. It needs to be the 16 acres of land.
UTLEY: And what should stand on those six, or 16, acres? Some argued that the ruins should be incorporated into an enduring, eloquent monument. But the visible ruins are almost gone now. In fact, the clean-up is moving ahead faster than expected, which puts pressure on deciding what should be built here. One proposal for a memorial would be twin towers of light illuminating the night time sky.
RAYMOND GASTILL, VAN ALLEN INSTITUTE: Do we want images of anything? Is it abstract? Is it a place of reflection or a place of activities. Are we going to have a sort of interactive quality to it? Are we more interested in the museum, or are we more interested in a kind of quiet, blank slate that we can then project our own feelings and concerns on?
UTLEY: But then there are also the feelings and concerns of Larry Silverstein, the lease holder of the World Trade Center who has a legal right to rebuild and make money. And city leaders, including the mayor, who want to rebuild the economic vitality of Lower Manhattan.
Above all, there is the discomforting fact that what was the center of commerce and capitalism is now a burial ground for more than 2,000 people -- including Monica Iken's husband.
IKEN: There is going to be a conflict. I will stand there, I mean, I see a chain developing of loved ones and people who feel the same way I do as well as the other groups who all feel strongly about that it has to be sacred land and we will stand there until they do what we need to do.
UTLEY: The crowds that still come daily to visit, to leave personal thoughts, are reminders of how a tragedy pulled people together. Will a memorial now pull them apart?
Garrick Utley, CNN, New York.
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BROWN: If you have some ideas on that or anything else we do here at NEWSNIGHT we urge you to e-mail us: newsnight@cnn.com. We have got a few seconds left. If we can go back to ground zero for a minute as it looks these days. We were looking at some pictures earlier today of the last several months, ground zero over the last several months and how it has changed. It looks so much now like a construction site, doesn't it? A road going through it. The missing count 2,895. Where we are on the 7th of January. We will see you tomorrow at 10:00. Good to have you with us. Good night for all of us.
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