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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Captured Al Qaeda Official Cooperates; Boy Testifies in Trial of His Hockey Dad
Aired January 08, 2002 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN HOST: Sometimes it's what you can't see when you're forced to imagine that a news story can have the most lingering, the most powerful impact.
That came to mind today in two very different ways. In a Massachusetts courtroom, you could hear him but you couldn't see him. A 12-year-old boy was forced to defend his father on the witness stand, a father accused of beating another dad to death at hockey practice.
Cameras never showed the sixth grader, but you could hear him being cross-examined, hear him admitting that he yelled for his father to stop the beating. One thing you could see was the dad, watching or perhaps trying not to watch. Seeing the obvious pain, almost made you glad you never had to see the face of the child forced to go through all of this.
And out of Maryland, a videotape of a traffic stop that, at first glance, looked like a low rent version of the TV show "Cops." The picture is bad. You can't see who's driving. Well, we know now who was driving, and we know when he was stopped. Ziad Jarrah, one of the hijackers was pulled over on September 9, two days before. You can hear the voice of the trooper say "you are free to go." He says it at the very end of the traffic stop. It makes you imagine what Jarrah's face was like when he heard those words, what he was thinking.
Maybe relief that the terror plan could go ahead, that his day of martyrdom was just two days away, his death. The plans we all wish could have been stopped on Interstate 95 that September evening. We could imagine all of that.
But was there any reason to suspect Jarrah, any reason to hold him at all? Key questions to answer, and so we begin with the tale of the tape in our whip around the world with the correspondents covering it. Susan Candiotti working the story today. Susan, what's left of the headline we haven't stolen?
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, let's see if I can steal something back. Tonight, we learned about a third hijacker who had a traffic stop, Hani Hanjour last August in Virginia. So now you have Mohammed Atta, Hani Hanjour, and Ziad Jarrah who's on tape.
Aaron, you talk about imagining. Imagine how often the trooper who made that traffic stop might have asked himself whether he missed something. Authorities insist they could not have know Jarrah was up to no good.
It appears local cops are right, and tonight there's something perhaps even more disturbing. Stay tuned.
BROWN: Susan, thank you. In Afghanistan, the war again, Bill Hemmer is on the ground in Kandahar. Bill, the headline from you this morning in your case.
BILL HEMMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, you got it. Good morning, and good evening back to you in New York. The al Qaeda code may be cracking. We are told through sources, a high-ranking al Qaeda leader right now cooperating with investigators.
Also that long trip to Cuba for so many detainees may be just hours away here in Kandahar. Back shortly. Aaron, to you now in New York.
Brown: Bill, thank you. Now to Boston we go, quite a day in the courtroom in Cambridge, the case of the hockey dad. CNN's Bill Delaney is covering that. Bill, a headline from you please tonight.
BILL DELANEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well thanks, Aaron. You know we had dramatic and contradictory testimony in a Cambridge, Massachusetts courtroom here today, most poignantly as you said at the top, from the 12-year-old son of defendant Thomas Junta. But most damaingly perhaps for Thomas Junta, testimony from a grandmother who witnessed the killing he's accused of -- Aaron.
BROWN: Bill, thank you. Back with all of you shortly. We have a lot more on tap as well. Something absolutely unprecedented tonight in Segment 7. Also tonight, a Senator who's seen the danger of central Asia up close. We'll talk to Senator John Edwards.
Whether the U.S. will stay committed to Afghanistan, the American track record in these sorts of things is not so good. And remembering the entrepreneur who said that a short order cook was one of his favorite jobs, Dave Thomas. You know the commercials. Tonight, a little more about the man.
Also tonight, what's so bad about standardized testing? Well, we'll talk with a leading critic of standardized tests, all in the hour ahead.
We begin with two words though, what if? They have troubled and puzzled us ever since the 11th of September. What if we knew what al Qaeda was planning? What if airports around the country had better security? And now, what if a Maryland State Trooper knew what the speeder he pulled over on September 9th was about to do? It is the what-ifs of life that can make you crazy.
Back to Washington, and CNN's Susan Candiotti. Susan, good evening.
CANDIOTTI: Aaron, good evening. The what-ifs go on and on. In this case, a highway trooper pulls someone over. A dashboard camera is rolling. It's another speeder, polite, doesn't give the trooper any lip even after he slaps him with a $270 fine. Thanks to a public information law, here's the tape of a now-notable traffic stop.
Unlike terrorist Timothy McVeigh, this one gave no hint of trouble, and a September 11th hijacker got away.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI (voice over): A run of the mill traffic stop, just after midnight, September 9th in northern Maryland. The driver is never seen or heard. That driver, Ziad Jarrah, then a nobody to authorities, who on this night was heading north, presumably to Newark where he would board United Airlines Flight 93.
Too late investigators would learn, Jarrah was part of a terrorist cell in Germany that planned the September 11th attacks, who took flying lessons in the U.S.
Two days later, Jarrah would help take over Flight 93, the flight which crashed in Pennsylvania. The haunting question, could he have been stopped, the plot foiled? Absolutely not, authorities insist. Jarrah was not on a terrorist watch list.
MIKE CLEMENS, FBI: When Jarrah was stopped on I-95, he was not on a radar screen of any Federal agency, and he was actually here, as I'm told, legally under a multiple entry visa that was good through 2005.
CANDIOTTI: And this from the trooper, who surely must have thought about the events that night time and again.
TROOPER JOSEPH CATALANO, MARYLAND STATE POLICE: No red flags at all. He was calm. He was real cooperative. Another routine traffic stop.
CANDIOTTI: Jarrah's license checked out. Nothing inside the car appeared suspicious.
COLONEL DAVID MITCHELL, MARYLAND STATE POLICE: Without any reason to believe someone might be wanted or there might be information that we need to know about, we don't run every name of every person we stop.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI: Authorities admit, even with an FBI database at their fingertips, they don't have the time or manpower to check everyone they pull over. Jarrah's speeding ticket, by the way Aaron, was found in his rental car after the hijackings.
BROWN: Now Susan, at the top of the program you mentioned police contact with another of the suspected hijackers. What do you know?
CANDIOTTI: That's right. Well back in August, according to a spokesperson for the police in Arlington, Virginia, Hani Hanjour, another hijacker was pulled over for speeding. Again, according to police, it was an uneventful stop, polite, nothing out of the ordinary, and Hani Hanjour paid his speeding fine and that was the end of it.
BROWN: And one other thing, and I assume this was in your travels today, reports out of the Justice Department that 6,000 Middle Eastern, Arab aliens in the country illegally are going to be in some way, shape or form rounded up. What do you know?
CANDIOTTI: They are. Well, this is a program that actually was announced last month by the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service. All together, there are 314,000 deportable aliens in the United States, but again lack of manpower and time and inability to pick all of them up.
However now, we have learned that the Justice Department is going to prioritize of those 314,000 people, 6,000 are going to be sought after first and those people are of Middle Eastern or Arab descent.
Now some groups take issue with that, saying it's profiling. The Justice Department is defending its decision saying, it's the best way they know how to protect Americans from future attacks.
BROWN: Susan, a full day for you. Susan Candiotti in Washington. Just as an absolute aside, you have to admire the trooper who certainly did not have to meet with reporters today, the young man who made the stop, for coming forward and talking about it.
War in Afghanistan now. It has been mercifully short of casualties on the American side. But in some respects it's meant the families of the soldiers who have been killed or have been hurt, have been that much more in the spotlight.
Tonight the wife of slain Special Forces Sergeant Nathan Chapman spoke at Fort Lewis, Washington, where she is awaiting her husband's body to arrive there early tomorrow. Renae Chapman talked about her husband's belief that he was serving in a just cause.
RENAE CHAPMAN, WIFE OF NATHAN CHAPMAN: He had seen so much of the world, and he was afraid since he called me on the satellite phone and he said, he sees women and children being beaten with sticks, just for walking down the street.
All these guys are men of honor and they're all the same, and they all have families and they're all leaving every day knowing that each one of them could not come home to their babies.
I'm proud that he got to serve every individual who lives here, and every individual who lives somewhere else. I want them to remember him as a quiet professional who just wanted to change the world.
BROWN: Sergeant Chapman will be buried Friday in a military ceremony at a military cemetery in Washington State. In Afghanistan, more war today, more shooting. But perhaps just as importantly, a man described as an al Qaeda leader, we admit we are not always sure exactly what that means, has done some talking and he's not the only ranking terrorist in custody these days. So back to CNN's Bill Hemmer with the day's developments in Kandahar. Bill.
HEMMER: Aaron, good morning again. Again I pose the question, is the al Qaeda code cracking? Sources tell me here in Kandahar, the highest-ranking al Qaeda member right now in captivity is cooperating with U.S. investigators; in fact, so much so on Tuesday, he was transported out of Kandahar, away from the detention facility, out to the waiting USS Battan, floating in the Arabian Sea.
His name is Iban al-Shayk al-Liby. He is from Libya and the White House has indicated he is on their Top 12 list of wanted members within the al Qaeda network. And certainly, one can see quite clearly, if indeed he is talking and cooperating, that this man will provide a wealth of information on the al Qaeda network, not only here in Afghanistan but certainly an entire network around the world.
In addition to that, on that same ship, seven others still detained there, including the American 20-year-old John Walker. What is interesting to note is that also on Tuesday, we understand, the name Abdul Salaam Zaaef, he is the former Taliban Ambassador to Pakistan, he was flown from the Bataan up to Baghram, the air base north of Kabul, for what reason though, we don't know. But we do know the interrogation of him does continue.
Meanwhile, we continue to inch closer to the first transport, the first massive airlift of detainees from here in Kandahar to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. It's our understanding right now that that mission is hours away instead of just days away. We do know for three days' time here at the airport, military planners trying meticulously now to put together that plan and make it safe and secure for transporting these men halfway around the world. One source indicates they are ready here in Kandahar. They're just waiting now for Cuba to come online.
Finally, on Tuesday also, two more al Qaeda fighters picked up in eastern Afghanistan, taken here to the detention facility in Kandahar, and also overnight once again, four more detainees brought in. The running number right now in Kandahar alone, 306 as we talk now -- Aaron.
BROWN: Bill, thanks. Bill Hemmer is in Kandahar this morning for us. Onto other matters other than the war. It is hard to imagine, impossible to imagine really what it must have been like for this group of youngsters to witness a killing at what was a routine hockey practice.
Whether the jury decides that killing was a crime is another matter, but just imagine the scars of seeing one dad punch another to death, whether it was an attack or self-defense. And now imagine having to take the witness stand to talk about it and you are the child of the man on trial. A heavy burden for a 12-year-old to carry now and forever, and that's what happened in Cambridge, outside of Boston today, which is where CNN's Bill Delaney is. Bill joins us again. Bill, good evening to you.
DELANEY: Good evening to you, Aaron. You know however terrible the charges against Thomas Junta, and as you said he's charged with beating another man to death in front of several children, many of those children crying hysterically.
It would be a hard heart indeed not touched when Thomas Junta's 12-year-old son walked into a Cambridge, Massachusetts courtroom today. A smaller version of the hulking 6'1", 275 pound Junta, this stocky boy walked up to the witness stand and then sat there for about ten or fifteen minutes repeatedly looking over at his father for reassurance, glancing at his father, serious, his brow furrowed throughout.
At just one point, Aaron, the boy suddenly bursting into a smile, at some reassuring gesture from his obviously pained father, making him seem all the more like a little boy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DELANEY (voice over): Emotion hard to imagine, with just 20 feet or so separating Thomas Junta, accused of Manslaughter from his young son seated before him, off camera, in a Cambridge, Massachusetts courtroom in the witness stand.
The defense calling Junta's son to support his father's contention he killed Michael Costin only in self-defense, beating him to death following a dispute over roughness at a pick-up hockey game Costin supervised at a rink outside Boston.
Junta's son said he came for a non-contact game, winding up with his father watching, elbowed in the throat and in tears.
THOMAS JUNTA'S SON, 12 YEARS OLD: They were hitting us with their slashing, tripping and cross-checking.
THOMAS ORLANDI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: OK.
SON: And elbowing.
DELANEY: Junta's complaints about the fighting escalating to a deadly brawl, the defense says Costin started, an assertion supported by another witness, college hockey player Ryan Carr, who also suggested he didn't see Junta use excessive force. That's supported from other testimony from Junta's son.
ORLANDI: What, if anything, was Mr. Costin doing with his body at that time?
SON: He was trying to punch and kick my dad to get him off.
ORLANDI: OK.
SON: Like his hands all over him.
ORLANDI: OK, and what, if anything, was your dad doing at that time?
SON: My dad hit him, three quick times, really quick. DELANEY: Other witnesses though, earlier in the day, saying they saw tremendous horrifying brutality.
VIRGINIA BRINGS, WITNESS: It's something that I'll never forget. He went on and on and I kept hollering and saying stop. And I was thinking the whole time, he's either going to kill this man or he's going to have brain damage.
DELANEY: The prosecution having rested, a case that continues to boil down to, did Junta act in self-defense, and if he did, did he go too far?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DELANEY (on camera): When the defense resumes tomorrow, we expect to hear expert medical testimony, possibly testimony from another child witness and possibly testimony in his own defense from Thomas Junta the defendant himself -- Aaron.
BROWN: There are so many things here. Just give us a quick timetable of when we think the jury - this has moved along pretty quickly. When do we think the jury will get this?
DELANEY: Well that's right, Aaron, this has moved along much more quickly than anyone expected. No one expected the prosecution to rest today. We would not be surprised if Thomas Junta got on the stand by tomorrow afternoon and that it even conceivably got to closing arguments later tomorrow afternoon.
What we more expect is that Thursday or so, closing arguments, and then it will go to the jury.
BROWN: Bill, thanks. Bill Delaney in Cambridge, Massachusetts outside of Boston. Talk about lives changing in a heartbeat. An interesting development in the trial of Andrea Yates today in Houston, the prosecutor there, saying in court, he will not seek the death penalty if she accepts criminal responsibility for drowning her five young children.
In other words, plead guilty to Murder and the life sentence that comes with it. She, of course, claims a severe form of postpartum depression drove her to the crime, not guilty by reason of insanity. Jury selection continued today. Jury selection itself expected to take a month.
In a moment, the President's class trip, celebrating the passage of his education bill, or at least an education bill. We'll explore the deal that was cut, the politics of it as well, and we'll also talk to a controversial voice who says that a lot of what's in the bill, the testing, really doesn't matter at all and may be wrong, when NEWSNIGHT continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: In what seems like a lifetime ago, education was the central issue for George W. Bush's run for the White House. Today, the President signed an education reform bill, not nearly everything he wanted, no vouchers for example. But he did get his testing plan, and he took a political style victory lap to celebrate it all.
Here's our Senior White House Correspondent John King.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The sweeping new education law is the product of a bipartisan spirit that is suddenly hard to come by on the home front.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We made it because proud members of the House and the Senate, loyal to their parties decided to set partisan politics aside and focus on what was right for America.
KING: The legislation calls for a record $26.5 billion in Federal spending on elementary and secondary education this year, up $8 million from last year. Funding for reading programs is tripled to nearly $1 billion a year for the next five years. In Ohio first, and then New Hampshire, Mr. Bush made clear accountability was his top priority.
Beginning in 2005, all students in grades 3 through 8 will face annual testing in reading and math, and schools will be required to show that teachers are qualified to teach their subject area. Annual report cards will allow parents to compare test scores across their state.
BUSH: I'm sure there's somebody out there saying, I don't like to take tests. Tough. We want to know. We need to know. We need to know whether curriculum is working.
KING: Schools that fail to meet the grade initially, will get more Federal help. But if performance still lags, parents will have the option of sending their children to other public or charter schools. The day's final stop was Boston Latin School, which dates back to 1635. Mr. Bush soaked in the history and this tribute from a liberal icon.
SENATOR EDWARD KENNEDY (D) MASSACHUSETTS: President Bush was there every step of the way making a difference on this legislation, in support of this legislation, to make sure that it was going to become law.
KING: That cooperative spirit stands in contrast to the recent partisan bickering over the economy, the President' top domestic priority in the New Year.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING (on camera): So as the President takes a few days to celebrate a signature achievement of his first year in office, the question remains, is the bipartisanship that brought it about history or can it be revived for the big domestic policy debates still ahead in year 2. John King, CNN, Boston. BROWN: There was very little debate about the testing provisions of the President's plan. There were arguments about whose tests and how much local control over the tests there would be, but not much arguing about the wisdom of the tests.
But in a number of school districts around the country, there is a rebellion going on against these standardized tests, and Alfie Kohn is out there stoking the fires of that rebellion. Mr. Kohn has long written about education. Among his eight books, "No Contest," the case against competition and the case against standardized testing." He's in Boston tonight, not far from the President's last stop. Nice to see you, sir.
ALFIE KOHN, AUTHOR, "THE SCHOOLS OUR CHILDREN DESERVE": Nice to see you.
BROWN: The President says we need to know and that makes some sense. What's wrong simply with standardized testing then?
KOHN: The tests tend to measure what matters least, and the effect of that is not only that the results of standardized testing tend to be misleading and uninformative.
But that when schools are driven to raise test scores at any price, which is only going to be exacerbated by this bill, the real heart of the curriculum is carved out, squeezed away, to the point that we ought to be skeptical and even worried.
When we hear about test scores going up, parents need to ask "oh no, what did you sacrifice from my child's education in order to make my child a better test taker."
BROWN: Why can't you - let's just take the first part of what you said. Why can't you just then change the test, write the test in such a way that it measures the things that a community or a state or a country believes its children ought to know?
KOHN: Well, one reason is that no test, even a good one, and there are very few that even qualify anywhere near as good right now that the states are using, but even a very good one can not possibly cover all of the things we think it's important for kids to be able to know and do.
So when you put too much emphasis on the results of any single stressful paper and pencil examination, you're not able to get a fuller sense of what the child can do, and therefore the curriculum preparing the kids for the test becomes narrowed and distorted.
But when the tests are multiple choice, then kids can't explain or generate answers. When the test is timed, then kids are really being tested for speed, not for thoughtfulness, and most of the standardized tests were never really designed to give a good sense of whether kids can think well. The tests were designed to rank and sort kids or schools.
So the operative question is not how well are our kids learning? The question is, who's beating whom? The effect of this is that all over the country right now, schools have been transformed essentially into giant test prep centers and people uncritically assume that when the scores go up that's a good thing, when in fact, it's either meaningless or bad news because of what had to be given up in order to prepare kids for the test.
BROWN: I found myself a few weeks ago in a conversation with the Governor the state of New York on this subject. There are a number, as you know, of school districts in New York who are literally rebelling against -
KOHN: That's right.
BROWN: -- a state standardized testing. And one of the arguments that he made is that what you are saying in a sense is an elitist argument, that maybe it's true that really good schools don't benefit by this. Maybe it's not. But that the average school or the below-average school benefits a lot, and you won't acknowledge that.
KOHN: I don't acknowledge it because it's the farthest thing from the truth. Minority school districts and schools that serve primarily kids of color are most gravely damaged by this fanatical test mania. Not all of those schools were great to begin with, but we're not watching as second-rate schools become third-rate schools.
In Texas, for example, you know you've got a situation where whole schools no longer teach science because it's not on the test. Arts and music are gone. Kids are trained like seals to bark out phonemes and numbers on command. You've got the most rigid kind of instruction, focused on isolated skills and forgettable facts.
And on top of all of that, you've got a situation where most of the states right now are saying, in defiance of common sense and acceptable standards in the field, regardless of your accomplishments over 12 years, you don't pass this graduation test, you don't get a diploma, and that's having an effect that is disastrous but nowhere more significantly than for kids of color. And, I mean in Texas right now, which is an educational nightmare in most respects, 40 percent of African-American and Latino 9th Graders don't make it to graduation.
BROWN: Mr. Kohn, let me stop you there because, and maybe what we can do is come back and just deal with that component of this. Thank you for joining us tonight. It's an intriguing argument and one we should talk about some more. Thank you.
KOHN: I'd love to.
BROWN: Alfie Kohn from Boston tonight. Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, trying to prevent an ugly history from repeating itself in Afghanistan. The U.S. commitment there as seen through the eyes of North Carolina Senator John Edwards. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: One of the things we've noticed about the people of Afghanistan since the fall of the Taliban, is how quickly many have reembraced entertainment and the arts. TVs and radios were among the first things to emerge when the Taliban was run out of town. Museums reopened. Music was performed.
KOHN: You've got the most rigid kind of instruction, focused on isolated skills and forgettable facts. And on top of all of that, you've got a situation where most of the states right now are saying, in defiance of common sense and accepted standards in the field, regardless of your accomplishments over 12 years, you don't pass this graduation test, you don't get a diploma.
And that's having an effect that is disastrous, but nowhere more significantly than for kids of color. And, I mean, in Texas right now, which is an educational nightmare in most respects, 40 percent of African-American and Latino ninth graders don't make to graduation.
BROWN: Mr. Kohn, let me stop you there, because -- and maybe we can -- what we can do is come back and just deal with that component of this.
Thank you for joining us tonight. It's an intriguing argument, and one we should talk about some more. Thank you.
KOHN: I'd love to.
BROWN: Alfie Kohn from Boston tonight.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, trying to prevent an ugly history from repeating itself in Afghanistan. The U.S. commitment there as seen through the eyes of North Carolina Senator John Edwards.
This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: One of the things we've noticed about the people of Afghanistan since the fall of the Taliban is how quickly many have re- embraced entertainment and the arts. TVs and radios were among the first things to emerge when the Taliban was run out of town. Museums reopened, music was performed in public again.
And in Kabul today, another sign of how far things have come, and how far they still have to go. The national theater reopened for the first time since the Taliban closed it down six years ago. A series of groups performed for an audience in what is now nothing more than a shell of the original building. The damage to the building, however, dates back nearly a decade to the factional fighting there between rival groups, which, interestingly enough, ultimately led to the rise of the Taliban.
Looking at the picture from the theater helps you understand a bit what Afghanistan is facing these days. People there genuinely seem ready, desperate even, for normal life, with enough food, housing, yes, even some entertainment. But the physical infrastructure has been devastated, and as we heard last night from one of our producers, bandits and warlords have been moving in now that the Taliban have been pushed out.
This all gets us to what the United States will do to help rebuild and help keep the peace. A group of senators has been touring the region, and earlier this evening I spoke with one of them, Senator John Edwards, a Democrat from North Carolina.
Senator, the whole delegation, when it left Afghanistan, seemed to say the same thing, that this time the United States will stay engaged in Afghanistan. Given our record in other countries, and sort of short-term American memory, why should we believe that this time will be different?
SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D), NORTH CAROLINA: Well, because I think, Aaron, this is very different situation. Before September the 11th, the American people had difficulty understanding, which is reasonable, why -- see anything, something that happened in this part of the world would have any direct impact on their safety, on their security, and in fact on their families' daily lives.
That all changed on September the 11th. The American people, I think, understand very well that what happens in this region, Afghanistan, Pakistan, the surrounding countries, in fact can have a direct impact on their daily lives and their own safety.
So because of that, and because of the closeness and what they've seen happen in the attack on America, I think the American people will be willing to support a long-term, sustained effort, which, by the way, I think is absolutely crucial. You know, we can't have other breeding grounds like existed in Afghanistan for terrorists. And they're going to go wherever the weakest link is.
So it is critically important that we stay engaged, not just in Afghanistan, but in the entire region.
BROWN: And senator, what exactly does "stay engaged" mean? Does that mean troops stay in Afghanistan? Does that mean billions of dollars in foreign aid? How do we stay engaged?
EDWARDS: Well, it means a variety of things, Aaron. For example, yesterday we had an extended discussion with President Musharraf about this specific subject, and I asked him in that discussion, "Mr. President, what do you need from America and its allies, not just America, in order to try to create stability and make sure that stability is maintained in your country?"
We talked about economic development, getting rid of people's feelings of hopelessness. We talked about education, improving the education of their people. We talked about law enforcement, so that in fact they can do the things that are necessary on the ground around Pakistan to create a secure environment.
So there are a variety of things. The judgments that we're going to have to make, Aaron, going forward have to do with magnitude and precisely what the contours are of our engagement. But the thing there's no question about is that we have to stay engaged.
BROWN: Senator, let me put you back in Afghanistan for a second. Did you get the impression that the central government, the government in place in Kabul, is in charge of the country, or just in charge of Kabul?
EDWARDS: I think the answer is neither. I think there are parts of Afghanistan that Chairman Karzai and his cabinet clearly have control over, and there are parts of Afghanistan they don't have control over. And I think there are just specific areas of the country that that -- where that occurs.
What I think was very important about that meeting, though, Aaron, in our discussion with Chairman Karzai, he said to me and to my colleagues that he believed deeply that it was the will of the Afghan people as a whole that they be united, that the Taliban be gone, and then, of course, that al Qaeda be gone.
And I think ultimately that's going to be critical to success of the effort to create stability in Afghanistan.
BROWN: But in a lot of parts of Afghanistan now, many of the same tribal leaders or warlords who were in place just before the Taliban came to power are in place again. What is to prevent another Taliban, different name, different group, but same problem, if the same people are running the show today?
EDWARDS: Well, the answer, I think, is that we're confronted with a difficult, complicated challenge. I think that choosing Chairman Karzai to be head of this interim government was a very good choice. He's an impressive man. The members of his cabinet that we met with are committed to this project, obviously, and they have a clear plan and a vision for what needs to be done.
But as you know, as you just indicated, implementing that plan over the long term on the ground is not going to be an easy thing. It's going to be complex, it's going to require a lot of work, and that's when our leaders in Washington talk about a long-term, sustained effort in Afghanistan, that's precisely what they're talking about.
And there will be, we know, ebbs and flows in this process. There won't be a steady, continuous uptick. But I think ultimately we will be successful, at least the odds are that we'll be successful.
BROWN: Senator Edwards, thanks for your time today. Have a safe trip home.
EDWARDS: Thank you, Aaron. Glad to be with you.
BROWN: Senator John Edwards of North Carolina.
When we come back, we'll remember Wendy's dad. We're right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We take a few moments tonight to remember Dave Thomas, a generic-sounding name, but we're reasonably sure you know who we are talking about -- the man, the face behind the counter, at Wendy's. Mr. Thomas died last night of liver cancer.
We spoke with a Wendy's switchboard operator at the Ohio headquarters today who said she couldn't count all the condolence calls that have come in, one woman vowing to always stay loyal to Wendy's in honor of Dave.
You could be deceived in thinking you knew Dave Thomas for all the ads he did. The image would appear in your living room, the modest millionaire, a guy who just really wanted to flip burgers.
But any life is more than a one-liner, and that is certainly true of Dave Thomas's life. So what you didn't see in the commercials now from CNN's Bruce Morton.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVE THOMAS, FOUNDER, WENDY'S: Every boy and every girl deserves a loving family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BRUCE MORTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Dave Thomas's mother put him up for adoption when he was 6 weeks old. His childhood wasn't always happy. He dropped out of school. Liked restaurant jobs, even in the Army. He ran a club.
His love affair with hamburgers goes way back. "Popeye wasn't my hero," he said later, "Wimpy was, because he loved hamburgers."
His real career started, though, when a restaurant owner friend asked him to bail out four troubled Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurants in Columbus, Ohio. Even the Colonel advised him against it, but it worked. He was a millionaire by 35, opened the first Wendy's -- hamburgers at last -- in 1969.
"Wendy" was what his other four kids called their sister Melinda. He started franchising Wendy's in the '70s and ended up with over 5,000 in the chain.
One famous slogan helped Walter Mondale win the Democratic presidential nomination from Gary Hart in 1984.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, 1983) SEN. WALTER MONDALE: When I hear your new ideas, I'm reminded of that ad, "Where's the beef, Bill?"
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORTON: But then he started making the ads himself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, TV COMMERCIAL)
THOMAS: We call it Hamburger Bliss.
You know, I can't believe it's just 99 cents.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: He's in the "Guinness Book of Records," most ads ever made by the guy who owned the business. Had to join the Screen Actors Guild.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, TV COMMERCIAL)
THOMAS: I'm what you call a good eater. I always have been.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORTON: But along with hamburgers, he sold adoption, worked for legislation, promoted an adoption stamp, gave all the proceeds from his books to an adoption foundation he set up, went to the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, November 24, 1998)
THOMAS: Everyone deserves a permanent, loving home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORTON: Hug from the first lady, praise from the president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, November 24, 1998)
BILL CLINTON, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The truth is that no other citizen in the United States today or ever has done as much as a private citizen to promote the cause of adoption as Dave Thomas, and we are very grateful to him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORTON: One other thing. In his troubled, moving-from-town-to- town childhood, he never finished high school. In 1993 at age 61, he got his high school equivalency certificate, the GED. Coconut Creek High School near his Fort Lauderdale home adopted Dave. They voted him Most Likely to Succeed. Hard to argue with that.
Looking back at it all, he said once, "Anything is possible. I truly believe people can achieve their dreams. I can, you can, anybody can." Hey, worked for him.
Bruce Morton, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Coming up next on NEWSNIGHT, should we be able to watch the terror trial of Zacarias Moussaoui? TV in the courtroom, debating the question, when NEWSNIGHT continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: First man charged in the September 11 attacks won't go on trial until the fall. In the meantime, there are a whole lot of very thorny issues that need to be sorted out about how this case will proceed.
Tomorrow, a hearing on one of them, a big one to those of us who work in the television news business -- whether the trial of Zacarias Moussaoui will be televised.
We all remember the Simpson case, OK? I certainly remember it. I covered it. Yes, it was a circus, and yes, when a trial turns into a circus, it is especially maddening. In the end, O.J. was just another murder case.
The stakes in this trial are infinitely more important, we think, and that makes deciding whether to put it on TV a lot more complicated.
Moussaoui and Court TV want it televised. The federal government prosecutors do not.
Siding with prosecutors, radio talk show host and former Supreme Court clerk Laura Ingraham. That is one of the great resumes of all time, by the way. She joins us from Washington.
And here in New York, constitutional lawyer Floyd Abrams. He supports TV in court, especially in this case. Mr. Abrams done a lot of work for media companies over the years, including CNN.
Welcome to you both.
FLOYD ABRAMS, FIRST AMENDMENT SPECIALIST: Thank you.
BROWN: Laura, I feel it's -- we start with you. This is a little bit two against one, because I've never found a trial I didn't think was televised. So kind of quickly here, lay out why you think this one should not be.
LAURA INGRAHAM, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, number one, I don't think our federal courts should be turned into a PR machine for al Qaeda or any other terrorist organization, and that's clearly the big risk here. I mean, the reason that military tribunals are a good idea -- one of the many reasons -- is precisely for this reason. We warned that there'd be a media circus. If indeed this trial ends up being open and televised for everyone to see on terrorism TV, then it will turn into a circus. We all know that.
Now, the media has a vested interest, and a conflict of interest in having these hearings, this criminal trial, televised. Doesn't mean it's right, and it doesn't mean that justice will not be done if we don't give Moussaoui the chance to spread the gospel according to the freaks who did this on September 11.
BROWN: You'll forgive me...
INGRAHAM: And it -- if he does -- if he does that, then justice will not have been served, and we have no idea through what kind of body language or words could be passed codes to other terrorists around the world. We have no idea how he's been trained in the past. And I think that's a real danger.
BROWN: All right. Well, forgive me if I suggest to you, we don't all know that it will turn into a circus.
Let me turn to Mr. Abrams. The -- let's say it does turn into a propaganda parade. Is that reason to at least consider not televising it?
ABRAMS: Well, I don't think so. I mean, I think that the public ought to see what the trial is. I mean, I think this is a really important trial. It is very important for the public to be as informed as possible. The media, heaven knows, is flawed, but it is somewhat less flawed -- I know it's hard for you to believe...
BROWN: Oh, my goodness!
ABRAMS: ... but -- but -- and here's your defender, right? No, but it's somewhat less flawed, and the public is significantly more informed, every public, the public here, the public abroad, if they can see what goes on in our courtrooms.
And I think Laura was quite fair in saying that the real objection to this is not the usual objections to TV in the courtroom. The objection here is the fear of propaganda. And I think we should have a little more trust -- I mean trust -- in our judicial system, in judges, to keep a defendant from propagandizing, and in the system itself to work well enough so that we're all old enough that we can see it.
I think the fears are greatly exaggerated.
BROWN: Laura, don't you think that in this case, given the magnitude of it all, that the media, for its part, if we want to deal with that component first, might just rise above the moment, or rise to the moment.
INGRAHAM: No.
BROWN: OK. INGRAHAM: I don't. I really don't. I think we had a few days after September 11, maybe a few weeks after September 11, where I think the media was just, you know, reporting the facts.
The problem is, it's not that we don't trust the American people with what goes on in our courtroom. This is going to be televised around the world, if indeed CNN or Court TV or what have you gets cameras in the courtroom and it's able to be televised on all the cable networks. It's not that we don't trust the American people. The fact that Moussaoui is on trial in an American court itself has created a martyr.
That simply is a picture that will be broadcast around the world, perhaps put the judge in more danger than he would have otherwise been if it were just reporters reporting on the trial. And the idea that somehow we're not getting enough information in this information age about what goes on in a courtroom, you can read transcripts, you can certainly watch any one of a number of cable networks, the nightly news, Internet, talk radio...
ABRAMS: And you think that's the same.
INGRAHAM: ... we talk about it every night on my show.
ABRAMS: I'm sorry, I don't think that's the same...
INGRAHAM: I don't think it's the same...
ABRAMS: ... as -- at all.
INGRAHAM: ... but I think in this circumstance it's more than adequate.
ABRAMS: Reading a transcript...
BROWN: Well, hang on one second, I...
ABRAMS: ... only a lawyer could really believe that reading transcripts is the equivalent of watching a trial. And I don't think it almost has anything to do with it.
I think we should trust the world too to watch our proceeding. I mean, why are we so afraid of letting the world see what happens in an American courtroom? I think the world will respect us more. Even if they don't, I still think we and the world, all of us, ought to have a chance to see what happens.
BROWN: Laura, I don't think you even cop to the idea that the country's afraid to have the world see what goes on.
INGRAHAM: Oh, no. I mean, I -- that -- again, that's not the point. I think the point here is that Moussaoui wants -- he expressed interest in having this televised. Why do you think he wants it televised? Do you think if he thinks it's going to hurt the case of other terrorists around the world if indeed he is guilty of the acts of which he's accused? ABRAMS: Well, what sort of...
INGRAHAM: Do you think he's doing it because he believes in the First Amendment and he thinks it's a great idea...
ABRAMS: Well, what sort of argument is that?
INGRAHAM: ... and wants people to know about the (inaudible)?
ABRAMS: I mean, seriously, that is not a serious argument.
INGRAHAM: No, because I think we should -- I think his motivation -- no, I think his motivations...
ABRAMS: His motivation?
INGRAHAM: ... are clear in pointing out...
ABRAMS: This application...
INGRAHAM: ... the problem about the -- about creating a circus...
ABRAMS: But the application was made...
INGRAHAM: ... he wants to create a circus.
BROWN: Mr. Abrams...
ABRAMS: ... by an American company for the right to televise. Court TV went to court, not as his proxy but because they want it televised...
INGRAHAM: Well, no, of course, they're (inaudible)...
ABRAMS: And -- I mean, yes, but...
INGRAHAM: ... (inaudible), of course they want to have televised it.
ABRAMS: ... it's very nice to throw out everyone that wants it. This has a conflict, that has a conflict. On the merits, I'm saying, I think it is useful for the public to see for itself what happens in our courts, and for the world to see what happens in our courts. And I repeat, I think you're wrong to be concerned about what they will see.
BROWN: All right, now, because Mr. Abrams, one quick point here, how would it happen anyway, since I think by statute, is it -- a fed -- or cameras are not allowed in federal courts?
ABRAMS: Well, it's not so easy.
BROWN: Yes.
ABRAMS: I mean, the only way it... INGRAHAM: You know...
ABRAMS: ... could happen is if the federal court should rule the statute unconstitutional. Not very likely, but that's an argument that they are making in asking the court to allow television. But is it...
INGRAHAM: (inaudible) --
ABRAMS: ... likely? No.
BROWN: And -- or...
INGRAHAM: Yes.
BROWN: ... Laura, you're going to get the last word.
If you were a betting man...
INGRAHAM: Well, well...
BROWN: ... yes or no -- Hold on. Do you think this will happen, that there'll be a -- that this will be on TV?
ABRAMS: No.
BROWN: OK, Laura, last word, half a minute.
INGRAHAM: No, I don't think it's going to happen. But just going acknowledge to the O.J. example for a moment...
BROWN: OK, or just...
INGRAHAM: ... which is somewhat apt here...
BROWN: This pains me so.
INGRAHAM: ... yes, we -- we -- no, we created a bunch of pop culture figures in our society. We didn't learn a heck of a lot about procedure or trial or even the facts of the case. We created pop culture figures. That's what happened. We created a lot of stars in the cable world. And that's not all that bad. But it's not necessarily forwarding the cause of learning.
BROWN: Laura Ingraham, Floyd Abrams, thank you both. You're both welcome back any time to talk about...
INGRAHAM: Thank you, Aaron.
BROWN: ... any darn thing you want. Thank you both for joining us.
Up next, Jason Bellini, who can find a story even without looking, Segment Seven in -- wait a second, we've only done five segments so far. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Woody Allen once said that 90 percent of life is just showing up. Don't we know that tonight.
Ours is usually a business of chasing stories, though in all honesty, sometimes stories chase us. But this time, we're about to tell you a story that did neither.
Our Jason Bellini just showed up, and there it was. It took place on a flight to Kashmir. It belongs no place other than tonight's Segment Seven.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): I didn't know it at the time, but the plane I few from Delhi to Srinagar, the capital of Kashmir Province, carried a coffin, this coffin. Nor when I shot these pictures did I know the significance to Srinagar of the death of the man who died. He was a young businessman who worked in Delhi. But virtually overnight, (inaudible) name has become an emblem of terrors past and fears present of Srinagar Muslims.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Police just kept the people for no reason. They don't get the culprit, they just get the innocent people. There is the point.
BELLINI: Indian police say they found him lying dead on the side of the road. But those attending Zafal's funeral say that's a lie. They believe the police arrested Zafal and then tortured him to death. They allege that in response to the December 13 terrorist attack on India's parliament, in which 14 people were killed, India's secret police are rounding up Kashmiris.
Zafal's cousin.
MUTAFA IQBAL, ZAFAL'S COUSIN: This boy was very gentle, and he had not any connection with any outfit.
BELLINI: Human rights abuses against Kashmiris by Indian authorities over the past 12 years have been well documented, and internationally criticized. The story of what happened to Zafal, whether he was the victim of an accident or a police cover-up, is impossible for us to know.
(on camera): The morning after the funeral, the front page of "The Greater Kashmir," which is a newspaper published here in Srinagar by Muslims, says in one headline, "Kashmiri Youth Gets Custodial Death in Delhi." The article reads, "Delhi police have allegedly killed in custody a Kashmiri sales executive."
(voice-over): Mr. Bhullar, deputy inspector general of the paramilitary security force, responds.
R.F. BHULLAR, DEPUTY INSPECTOR GENERAL, PARAMILITARY SECURITY FORCE This is all the propaganda. And propaganda spread in the less educated setting (ph) more as compared to the educated setting. That's a problem here, that people are not much educated in the various parts, and when they listen to a thing, it spreads as a rumor.
BELLINI: The security forces wanted to show me the dangers they face, taking me along with them on an operation they call Night Domination, in which they search vehicles for militants. They encountered and killed three militants last night, I'm told.
They describe themselves as peacekeepers, offering protection to innocent Kashmiris. The innocent Kashmiris say they take big risks by meeting with me.
HAMIDA MAYIM, PROFESSOR: We are being killed like mosquitoes every day, but nobody is making any noise about it. That's why I wanted to meet you. That's why, in spite of this ban, I wanted to see you somehow.
BELLINI: Professor Hamida Mayim tells me that Zafal's death is becoming a catalyst in Srinagar for angry, frustrated, frightened Muslims.
(on camera): Complete shutdown, what do you mean?
MAYIM: I mean, there will be strike on Wednesday. I mean, that is the only weapon in the hands of Kashmiris, that they call for a strike, because we have no other way to protest.
BELLINI: One death, two explanations. Par for the course in this place called Kashmir.
Jason Bellini, CNN, Srinagar, Kashmir, India.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: That's all for tonight. We'll see you tomorrow at 10:00. Good night.
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