Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Taliban Prisoners To Arrive in Guantanamo Cuba; Very Little Left of Doomed KC-130
Aired January 09, 2002 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN HOST: And good evening again everyone. As we said in our afternoon e-mail, and as Larry just mentioned, we fly off to Tampa early, very early tomorrow morning for a long interview with General Tommy Franks. The General has run this war. He is to the war in Afghanistan what General Norm Schwarzkopf was to the Persian Gulf.
Three months ago, almost no one outside of Pentagon beat reporters had heard about General Franks, and the General who was pretty media shy, liked it that way. But time changes things and he seems to have grown more comfortable with the media, and we think the country has grown very comfortable with him. He is plainspoken, very smart, no nonsense.
He is a pro, and like virtually everyone who has stars on their shoulders in the Pentagon these days, the General is a product of Vietnam. And one of the things we hope he'll talk about with us tomorrow is Vietnam, the war there and the war at home during that time, and how it changed his view of the army and domestic politics.
How different this war is from the only 30 years ago. Then the threat, if there was one, was murky at best. Here the threat could not be clearer. Then, political leadership underestimated the enemy, and over estimated its own power and the will of the country to stay for the long haul. So far, and it's still very early, this generation of political leadership, itself a product of the Vietnam Era, though not of the war itself interestingly, has done neither.
General Franks is a lucky man. He has run a war with the country rooting him on, and even on days like today, a bad day over there, we suspect this product of Vietnam is grateful for that.
As we said, it was a bad day over there, and it is that bad news that begins our whip around the world. We start at the Pentagon, and CNN's Jamie McIntyre. Jamie, the headline from you tonight, please.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well the headline, a KC-130 refueling jet carrying seven marines slammed into the side of a mountain in western Pakistan, killing all seven on board. There's no evidence that the tragedy is anything but an accident, but an investigation is underway.
BROWN: Jamie, thank you, back to you shortly. The fate of the people detained during the campaign in Afghanistan, al Qaeda fighters, CNN's Bill Hemmer is in Kandahar for us tonight. Bill, a headline.
BILL HEMMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, not a single detainee has made the move yet for Cuba. However, new detainees in fact by the dozens, continue to flow in last night, overnight here in Kandahar. We've got the video to show it coming up shortly here in Afghanistan. Aaron.
BROWN: Thank you, Bill. A very different story from the White House tonight, as the President hit the fundraising circuit. Politics, big time for the first time since September 11th, and it gets more interesting too. John King, our Senior White House Correspondent, a headline from you please.
JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the beneficiary of the President's fundraising was his brother Jeb, the Governor of Florida. At that event, remarkable, the Republican President had kind words for the Democrats, even though he was at a Republican fundraiser. Many of his allies though don't feel the same way. This letter from a conservative group sent out this week, blames Bill Clinton and the liberals for the attacks of September 11th. It says people should give money to the conservative cause to "hold them accountable."
BROWN: John, back to you in a bit. And in a Cambridge courtroom, the man known as the hockey dad took the witness stand in his own defense, another riveting day in court. Bill Delaney in our Boston Bureau, a headline please.
BILL DELANEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well that's right, Aaron. The defense did rest here today. As you said, Thomas Junta, the defendant placed on the stand. He said he only acted in self-defense in killing Michael Costin. Closing arguments tomorrow, and then the case goes to the jury. Dramatic final testimony, we'll have a report on that coming up. Aaron.
BROWN: Bill, thank you, back with all of you shortly. Also tonight, we'll take an extended look at the trial in Cambridge. We'll also preview the Franks interview. We'll talk with a couple of our generals about how the war was conducted, its successes and the challenges that remain.
Also tonight, tickets to see Ground Zero. It should make things run smoother for the many thousands of people who want to see what happened in Lower Manhattan, now almost four months ago. But there is no denying it, ticket selling here, not selling, but the tickets are somewhat unsettling.
And in Segment 7, Beth Nissen takes us to what may be the most exotic place we've ever gone on NEWSNIGHT, certainly the coldest. Also tonight, we'll update a couple of stories we've been working on over the last few weeks. One involves the world's busiest airport. That would be Atlanta, of course, and another involves Columbine. And for the first time on the program, and I'm a little bit embarrassed to say this, we will actually say the word "Enron" the energy giant that fell.
All that is still to come.
We begin with the crash. There's not a lot to say about why this plane went down. Investigators are heading to the area. Accounts will be taken. Theories will emerge. Before that happens, of course, families will be notified. Some may have been already. They may have gotten the word, and as we said before, whether in combat or by accident, it doesn't much matter. Grief is grief. A grim day is a grim day. And it certainly was that.
Back to the Pentagon, CNN's Jamie McIntyre. Jamie, good evening.
MCINTYRE: Good evening, Aaron. Well the Pentagon has not released the names of any of those killed, but the families are being notified. The procedure for this is for these notifications to be done in person by uniformed marine personnel. It's the kind of visit you just don't want to get.
One father in Oregon told about his son's death said that he could have come back but signed up for another tour of duty. He did not want to be on the sidelines when America's defense was at stake.
The investigation of this accident continues. It appears at this point that it's not so much an act of war as an accident of war.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE (voice over): The Marine Corps KC-130, like this one, is a flying gas station. Pentagon officials say it was laden with fuel and burst into a tremendous fireball as it slammed into the mountainside.
MAJOR CHRIS HUGHES, U.S. MARINE CORPS: At this early juncture, we don't know what the causes of this incident are. The terrain is described as difficult.
MCINTYRE: The tanker, with seven marines on board, took off from a base at Jacobabad and made several stops before crashing on a nighttime approach to a forward operating base at Shamsi, just west of the Pakistani city of Quetta. There were no survivors.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our hearts and prayers go out to the families of the soldiers. But I want to remind them that the cause that we are now engaged in is just and noble. The cause is freedom.
MCINTYRE: The KC-130 is a workhorse of the marine fleet, with the ability to refuel both planes and helicopters in flight. It's a modified version of the standard C-130 cargo plane.
GENERAL DONALD SHEPHERD, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: It's a venerable old warrior, very reliable, very, very good safety record, and any time you have military operations anywhere in the world and you want to establish your initial bases, this is the plane you take in to rough fields in a hard mission.
MCINTYRE: Search teams that have reached the site report that there appears to be little left of the plane. At this point, there's no indication of any hostile fire. But with a full investigation still underway, no one here at the Pentagon is willing to rule that out yet. Aaron.
BROWN: Jamie, thanks. Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon on this today. All this comes out as another story is about to play out, the matter of sending planeloads of terrorists to a prison miles away from the war. In a moment, we'll go back to the destination in Cuba, one of the most exotic spots on any world tour.
First though, back to their point of departure. CNN's Bill Hemmer is in Kandahar for us. Bill, good morning to you.
HEMMER: Aaron, thank you and good morning from Kandahar. Sources indicate there was a flight scheduled and ready to leave on Monday night of this week. That was cancelled. Again another flight on Tuesday night, that was cancelled as well. Our sources say they're OK here in Kandahar, but they're waiting for Guantanamo Bay, Cuba to come online.
However, Bob Franken two hours ago says a very different story. He says they are ready in Cuba. They're not sure what the hold up is at this point. We talked with retired General Wesley Clark. He says it's just a snafu at this point. Define it as you like. Add it up though at this point, the military will not move until indeed it believes all the pieces are in place for a secure move 7,000 miles from here in southern Afghanistan.
As I mentioned that no detainee has left yet in Afghanistan. However, dozens of new detainees came in under the cover of darkness last night. Some exclusive videotape to show you. In the first group that came in, a group of about 18, all shackled with chains, hoods on their heads, being lead into the detention facility, a facility I should add divided in two parts at this point, a smaller one and a larger one.
The one's ready for transport have been moved to the smaller area, a more controlled, confined department of that facility. The larger area on Wednesday we know was cleaned up, cleared out. They say they were getting ready for more. Indeed, they got them last night. Again, 18 in the first group.
Now another videotape, and I'm not quite sure what you can see very clearly in this videotape. We counted at least 25 more. But what is interesting about the second group is that there were several injured on board a huge cargo plane landing here about two hours ago in Kandahar. We saw medical teams carrying some of the detainees by stretcher. There were IV bottles hanging off some of the detainees as well.
We understand the latest group originated in Pakistan. Again, there's a possibility here these are al Qaeda fighters flushed out of the Tora Bora region, and they may be again recovering from combat wounds suffered in another part of this country. Again 46 more in total last night. The number on deck here in Kandahar, 352 -- Aaron. BROWN: Bill, obviously this is very fluid, so are you hearing any word on when this first flight may depart and what sort of route it's going to take? Is it going to make stops? Do you know anything about that?
HEMMER: Yes, a couple things on that, Aaron. I'm a little apprehensive to talk about it just because 24 hours ago, we were told the move was imminent and only hours away, and clearly that did not happen. But again, later tonight when darkness falls, there is another strong possibility that the first movement will take place.
What we understand from Kandahar, C-17s, these are big cargo planes with big jet engines on board, they'll take the initial group here said to travel in groups of 15 to 20. They're not going to take all 300 at one time, 15 to 20 to start. They're going to fly out of here, out of Afghan air space. They'll land somewhere and refuel, but that place right now has been held quite confidential.
There's a possibility, Aaron, they may be transferring to another plane, possibly a C-141. That's been sort of retrofitted with special cells inside, to make sure security is absolutely lid tight. But again, those details and specifics are kept from us at this time. But again, it could happen later tonight. We'll be here to watch and see if indeed that is the case.
BROWN: And I suspect I'm going to get a similar answer, but let me ask the question anyway. Are they giving you any detail, any operational detail, how many soldiers will guard how many detainees, that sort of thing?
HEMMER: Yes, we don't know that either, and the reason is quite clear. They don't want to tip their hand in any way to others who might want to take advantage of this shipment. But I can tell you this, it is quite clear and quite possible that they'll have twice the number on guards on board these planes as they will detainees.
And as I mention that, Aaron, three days ago a K-9 patrol unit was flown in here to Afghanistan. We saw them publicly yesterday for the first time, sniffing around the tarmac. We're told the owners of this dogs said the detainees are "scared to death" any time those dogs come around. They may be on those flights as well -- Aaron.
BROWN: Bill, thanks. Bill Hemmer who's in Kandahar as we await the detainees departure. Thank you. It does seem more than a few oddities in this war. This surely is one of them.
Russia sends its dangerous criminals to Siberia, surrounding them with hundreds of miles of icy no-man's land. These detainees are being taken by this country to a tropical paradise, surrounded ironically by our own country's enemy. Go figure.
We go now to CNN' Bob Franken who is on the videophone in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Bob, good evening.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron, and there is a certain logic that they feel has to do with why Secretary Rumsfeld called Guantanamo Bay Naval Base in Cuba the least worst selection. Because of the former very antagonistic relationship with Cuba, which has now settled down just a little bit.
Nevertheless, this is an island that is surrounded by not one, but two 17-mile plus fences and a mine field in between the boundaries of Guantanamo Bay and Cuba. And there has also been the very hasty construction of a temporary receiving point for these detainees. That's what they're calling the prisoners.
It is Camp X-ray and some might remember Camp X-ray as the site for thousands of refugees who were detained in the 1990s. Well now it's being turned into the most maximum of security facilities. The detainees when they arrive, and 100 could be accommodated right now, will be kept in cells that have roofs over them, but they're going to be otherwise open. They're going to be actually small cubicles for each individual, and the small cubicles are going to be surrounded by wire mesh fence.
They're going to be the bare necessities on a wood slab floor. The detainees will be sleeping on the floor, under the constant watch of the various guards who have been brought in from the military specialists brought in from around the country.
They're going to be also surrounded by very heavy security on the outside. There are going to be machine guns. There are going to be those same dogs. It's going to be extremely heavy security. There is going to be, according to the person who's going to be running this particular pen, it's the only way to describe it, no freedom of movement. He has no intention of allowing anybody to escape over the very, very thick concertina barbed wire that is being strung around this facility.
Right now, as I said, they're ready for about 100. They expect ultimately here to be able to accommodate 2,000. They are also building a more permanent structure a short way away from Camp X-ray. It's going to be an actual building. Again, maximum security designed to keep these people for a long period of time until somebody can decide, Aaron, what to do with them.
BROWN: Bob, thanks. Bob Franken who got the duty in Guantanamo Bay in Cuba tonight. If and when there are trials for these men, it's not clear whether these trials will be public. They may be military tribunals. We're not sure.
But we do know that the trial of Zacarius Moussaoui, the only man charged in the September 11th attacks, is not a military tribunal. It will be an open court and the issue now before that court is whether that trial should be televised.
Moussaoui was there in court today, watching his lawyers and lawyers from Court TV make their case that Federal Law that keeps cameras out of Federal courtrooms is unconstitutionial. CNN and other media outlets have filed papers in support of that argument. Attorneys for Moussaoui say televising the trial will make it more likely that it will be fair. The government argues it will jeopardize security and create a circus. The judge promises she'll have her ruling no later than Tuesday, and I can tell you that if those who e-mailed us after last night's segment on this subject are any indication, there's not a whole lot of public support for cameras in the court on this one.
A quick note on the man who brought the world's busiest airport, Atlanta's Hartsfield Airport, to a dead stop, Michael Lassiter got the maximum sentence today, if you will. It was a $3,300 fine, a fine for bolting past a security checkpoint in November.
You see him there running up, or running down the up escalator. He said he was running to get back to his young son, waiting for him with an uncle at the gate. Authorities had no way of knowing that, so they shut the entire terminal down. Lassiter's lawyer questioned the legality of the fine.
A late development to tell you now about the collapse of Enron, the energy giant. This must be the most underreported story in a very long time, and there is certainly news here tonight. Justice Department sources telling CNN a major criminal investigation is getting underway, a taskforce being created.
There are few details so far, except that the question of fraud will play a large part in the investigation. An attorney for Enron tried to put a good face on this, saying it consolidates a number of smaller investigations. The company filed Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection early last month.
Now to the hockey rage trial. Yesterday, Thomas Junta watched his young son, a 12-year-old testify about the brawl that ended in another father's death. Well today, with his son watching, Junta himself took the witness stand, symmetry not always a pretty thing.
We turn again to CNN's Bill Delaney at the courthouse where the closing arguments are set to take place tomorrow. Bill, good evening to you again.
DELANEY: Good evening to you, Aaron. You know as this is a story about the passions that surround children's sport, it's inevitably a story too about families. And two families in this courtroom, this Middlesex Superior courtroom, here in Cambridge, Massachusetts sat just feet apart from each other here all week.
Now on this climactic day, when Thomas Junta took the stand, the Costin family to the left of the courtroom, a smaller contingent mostly elderly women, including Michael Costin's elderly mother who kept her composure through most of Junta's testimony, only crying quietly to herself every time any of her son's hockey equipment, even replicas of her son's hockey equipment was introduced as evidence. She would lower her head and cry.
In the center of the courtroom, a large contingent, Thomas Junta's family and friends. His son, as you said, his young daughter listening intently as Thomas Junta spoke from the witness stand, then a collective - you could feel it in the courtroom, a collective exhalation of relief when the defense rested, from the Junta family. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DELANEY (voice over): With the prospect of 20 years in prison weighing down his bulky shoulders, Thomas Junta to a Cambridge, Massachusetts witness stand, defending himself against manslaughter. The killing of Michael Costin, following a dispute after a children's pickup game of hockey a year and a half ago.
The defense said that Costin started a deadly fight, jumping on Junta's back and the two fell to the ground.
THOMAS JUNTA, DEFENDANT: I didn't know what that guy was doing. It was like, I mean why's he even jumping at me so fast. He was like crazy. I couldn't understand it.
DELANEY: Corroborating testimony earlier from a child who witnessed the fight.
GARRETT, WITNESS: When he jumped on his back, he put his arms around his neck, his forearms around his neck. Mr. Junta struggled for maybe five seconds and then pulled him over his back onto the ground.
DELANEY: The child backing up Junta that only three punches were thrown. The prosecution though, insisting Junta went too far, excessive force.
THOMAS JUNTA: It was three off balance punches. That's all I threw.
SHEILA CALKINS, PROSECUTOR: You never stopped between any of those punches, did you Mr. Junta, to see whether or not that was enough?
JUNTA: It took about two seconds ma'am to throw three punches, and that was it.
CALKINS: Well, it would have taken a lot less just to throw one punch, wouldn't it Mr. Junta?
JUNTA: Yes, it would have, but he was hitting me back the whole time.
DELANEY: A forensic pathologist called by the defense said repeated blows weren't necessary. Any punch at just the right angle could have killed Michael Costin.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DELANEY (on camera): Closing arguments Thursday morning, and then the case goes to the jury. What will they be deciding? Well, they could decide, and all 12 of them have to decide that Voluntary Manslaughter is what happened here. That requires intent to kill or cause serious bodily harm, or the use of excessive force in self- defense. They could also decide on Involuntary Manslaughter, which basically amounts to simple Battery or, of course, these 12 jurors, 9 women and 3 men could find Thomas Junta not guilty -- Aaron.
BROWN: Thank you, Bill Delaney in Cambridge, Massachusetts. And just a quick reminder, a little bit later in the program, we'll take a longer look at the testimony in the case today.
Coming up next though, the new normal for Presidential fundraisers have been in politics, except some of the President's supporters may not have gotten the memo. NEWSNIGHT on Wednesday.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Politics in a time of war, and the political season is underway. Senator Tom Daschle last week criticized the Bush tax cut, but praised the President on how he's handled the war.
The President tonight went to his first Republican fundraiser since the 11th of September, giving a nod to political unity, while still trying to rally the party. But while the President is treading carefully with partisan attacks, some of his supporters are not.
So here again is our Senior White House Correspondent, John King. John, good evening.
KING: Good evening to you, Aaron, and White House aides said it is a sign of the strength of our democracy that the President can set aside the role of Commander-in-Chief for an hour or two and be fundraiser-in-chief. They say he's perfectly willing in the months ahead to mix it up with Democrats, whether the subject be the economy, tax cuts, other domestic policies.
One thing the President has made clear though to all of his top aides, he wants to keep the talk tame when it comes to the war. But it's also clear not everyone on the Republican side of the aisle agrees.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KING (voice over): His first political fundraiser since September 11th, a plug for brother Jeb.
BUSH: There's no doubt in my mind that he is not only one of the great governors of Florida's history. He's one of the great governors of our nation and he deserves a second term.
KING: But this unusual twist, kind words for Democrats at a partisan Republican gathering.
BUSH: I appreciate very much the spirit of unity here in Washington, D.C. on this war.
KING: Mr. Bush hopes to use his wartime popularity to help Republicans in this year's election, but hopes to keep the war effort out of the partisan political debate. Not all of the President's allies are following his advice.
Readers of the influential Conservative Human Events newspaper this week received a toughly worded fundraising appeal. This National Conservative Campaign Fund letter begins with a question, "who is to blame for the intelligence failure that allowed Islamic terrorists into the U.S. to murder almost 4,000 innocent Americans?"
The letter blames Bill Clinton and the liberals in Congress, and goes on to say, "they made deadly deals with our enemies. The tragic consequences are the deaths of almost 4,000 innocent Americans, the loss of more than one million jobs, and a war that may last for years."
JEFF HOLLINGSWORTH, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NATIONAL CONSERVATIVE CAMPAIGN FUND: It's not unreasonable, nor do we think it's unfair for Americans to ask why? How did we get to this point? What happened and what are we going to do about it?
KING: The Democratic National Committee Chairman was quick to object.
TERRY McAULIFFE, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: There's no room for this in American politics today. It is a disgrace. The President needs to be called upon immediately to come out and condemn these types of activities.
KING: White House aides privately say the letter runs counter to the President's preferred approach.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING (on camera): But the official public line here at the White House is, no comment. Top Bush aides say they do not want to get into the business of reacting publicly to every direct mail fundraising letter sent by groups that have no direct relationship with the President or with the Republican Party -- Aaron.
BROWN: John, thanks. Senior White House Correspondent, John King at the White House tonight.
Onto the Middle East, four Israeli military men died today in an attack that Hamas is claiming responsibility for. But even before this incident, the tension has been growing over the last several days between Israel and the Palestinians (inaudible) something that happened last week.
A massive shipment of Iranian weapons seized by Israel at sea, the Israeli government quick to point the finger at Yasser Arafat. And now the United States may be willing to do the same thing, which will not exactly help get the peace process back on track.
We go to our State Department Correspondent Andrea Koppel -- Andrea.
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron. For Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, this is the absolute worst kind of news for him. For the first time since this story broke last week, now the Bush Administration is saying that it has seen compelling evidence linking Yasser Arafat and some of his senior aides to that shipment, that intercepted shipment of 50 tons of weapons that Israel intercepted last week near, in the Red Sea near its territory.
A senior State Department official telling CNN, "we now know enough to say that there were actions that occurred that we can only assume Arafat had knowledge of, and could have been involved with."
In recent days, the State Department had been extremely careful to draw a distinction between the involvement of Palestinians, like the captain of the ship that Israel intercepted in the Red Sea, and the official involvement of Arafat, his Fata security organization and the Palestinian Authority.
But tonight's about face follows a day full of briefings today here at the State Department and elsewhere here in Washington by senior Israeli naval and military intelligence officials in which they say they provided direct linkages, direct evidence linking Arafat to last week's weapon shipment from Iran.
Israeli officials say that shipment included $10 million worth of Iranian weapons. We're talking about mortar shells, long-range Katusha rockets, the kinds of weapons, Aaron, that you would expect to see among Hezbollah in Lebanon, but certainly not among the Palestinians. And for that reason, Israel said if it had not intercepted this shipment, every Israeli city would have been at risk.
Now obviously, this is going to have some kind of a major impact on U.S. attempts to revive the long-stalled Israeli-Palestinian peace process. But tonight, the U.S. is still trying to put a positive face on this, not losing hope, one official saying, calling on Arafat to establish the facts and saying that the U.S. wants an immediate and clear explanation. Aaron.
BROWN: Andrea, thank you very much. Andrea Koppel at the State Department. It is never easy in the Middle East. In a moment, we begin our look at the man running the war in Afghanistan.
Tonight, the take on General Tommy Franks from two generals he and we know pretty well. We'll begin talking about the general when NEWSNIGHT continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: As we said earlier, and this being television, we'll probably say three more times before we're done, tomorrow, we'll sit down with General Tommy Franks in Tampa for what will be his first primetime interview. We'll spend an hour with him tomorrow. And the plan now is to run portions of the interview over Thursday and Friday. It is a very rare chance to get a better read on the man who has said very little but done an awful lot.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DONALD RUMSFELD, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: General Franks is both a warrior, but also a wise and inspiring commander.
BROWN (voice-over): Those are nice words to hear coming from your boss.
RUMSFELD: He has my full trust and respect, and I know he has the trust and respect of the president of the United States
GEN. TOMMY FRANKS: When you come out of the Jalalabad area...
BROWN: At age 56 and with practically no visibility prior to the beginning of the war, General Tommy R. Franks has moved to center stage as the man in charge of the day-to-day conduct of America's war against terrorism.
GEN. NORMAN SCHWARTZKOPF: So in the initial stages of the game, we were hitting the republican guard heavily, but we were hitting them with strategic type bombers rather than pinpoint precision bombing.
BROWN: At the start of the war, he seemed so averse to cameras and public attention. One of the first things he did was make clear he would not be the Norman Schwartzkopf of this war.
FRANKS: Well, I suppose I'd begin sort of at the end by acknowledging that Tommy Franks is no Norman Schwartzkopf.
QUESTION: Nor vice-versa.
FRANKS: Nor vice-versa.
BROWN: But slowly, General Franks has become more accustomed, if not comfortable, with all the attention. He's traveled a lot to Uzbekistan, to Kandahar in Afghanistan, in the military's acronym, his AO, area of operations.
FRANKS: The secretary and our president have asked me to do a job. I believe that the American people have every right to expect me to do that job. I believe that it's important for us to think our way through and execute the strategy and the operations which are important to our country.
BROWN: Actively seeking attention, however, is something Tommy Franks seems determined to avoid. After all, in a quote that must have pleased his ultimate boss, President Bush, the general is fond of saying, "My business is a secret service."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And again, the general was kind enough to give us a chance to talk with him tomorrow. We'll do that in Tampa, beginning playing portions of it on tomorrow night's program.
We thought we'd get in practice talking to generals, so we're joined tonight by a couple of ours. In Little Rock, Arkansas, retired general Wesley Clark. He had the Tommy Franks job, commanding operation allied force in Kosovo. And just outside Chicago in Oakbrook, Illinois, retired brigadier general David Grange. Gentlemen, good evening to both of you.
General Clark, what was -- what has been, to this point, the toughest task for General Franks?
GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), FORMER NATO SUPREME COMMANDER: I think it's to get -- the toughest task really has been to get the balance right. It's to set the course for the campaign on a path that takes the fight to the enemy, does so in an expeditious fashion that he has, but also, avoids unnecessary risks both to our own forces and to the stability of the region.
BROWN: And -- I'm not sure how to frame this. I guess -- I think the question I want to ask you, General Clark, is: Has he handled the forces on the ground, not the American forces, but the tribal chieftains, the warlords, those people who had a role to play but not necessarily helped a whole lot sometimes. Has he been able to handle them OK?
CLARK: Well, I think you have to judge by the results on this one, Aaron, and we were able to -- he was able to convince the tribal chiefs on the ground by using the Army special operations forces and sometimes his personal presence to do what we wanted them to do. They took on the Taliban. They took the risks on the ground. They made the attacks. They had our support.
They had some communications and logistics from us. They had probably had some coaching from us, too. But ultimately, their necks were out there. They were the ones receiving the direct fire from the enemy. And he persuaded them to do that all the way through to the disestablishment of the Taliban regime and the pursuit's continuing. So I think you give him high marks for that.
BROWN: I'm not surprised you give him high marks, honestly.
Let me turn to General Grange, because General Clark mentioned the words "special operations." And one of the things I'm wondering is -- and one of the things I think I'll ask General Franks as well tomorrow is: If special ops and small group, small troop movements -- not big, massive Army movements -- are really the wave of the future, then what we have seen now in Afghanistan is how wars are going to be fought if they have to be fought.
DAVID GRANGE, BRIGADIER GENERAL (RET.), U.S. ARMY: No, I believe that every fight is different. I think it's been that way in the past and it'll be that way in the future. Small groups were very useful on this particular operation because we're dealing with tribal bands that had to be approached, relationships established, assessments made of their capabilities, and then integrating and synchronizing those forces into our air power and our other ground troops that are on the ground in the area for the operations. In the future, though, we may still require a larger Army if you're taking on a republican guard type force, not small pockets of tribal forces.
BROWN: So it is just the nature of the last two conflicts -- General Clark's in Kosovo and this one -- that what we've seen is air power and, in the case of this one, small groups, special ops and the rest and not massive Army movements. Pretty much it? General Grange, I'm sorry.
GRANGE: Oh, yeah. I think that's -- I'm sorry, I thought were talking to General Clark there. Yes, I agree. I still think you need the ground and air no matter what combination thereof to have the effect because of the way our enemies can negate our air power or the ways that they can take advantage of our ground power. And you have to have the right mix of forces at the right place and the right time to get positional advantage depending on the terrain, depending on the enemy and what type of enemy you're fighting.
BROWN: General Clark -- both of you, I should say. I'm going to ask the same question. I warned you this was coming. What would you ask General Franks tomorrow if you were sitting where I'm going to be sitting?
CLARK: Aaron, I'd ask him how he measures his own success. What we did in the Kosovo campaign is establish measures of merit. We knew that there's no single right answer to how hard you push or how many risk you take, so you have to figure out what the different considerations are and you have to balance one off against the other. Tommy Franks never told us what those considerations are. It would really be interesting to know. I've heard him use the term "measures of merit" once, so he must have them. And how does he evaluate his own performance, the performance of the campaign against those measures of merit?
BROWN: All right, we'll take care of that.
And General Grange, in about 15 or 20 seconds, what would you ask General Franks tomorrow?
GRANGE: Yeah, two quick ones. One is: As you're fighting the war in Afghanistan, how you prepared for other fights in your region of responsibility? Number two is: On command and control, how does a commander -- there's a lot of talk now where the commander is located on a battlefield, and the world as it is today in these kind of fights, is he forward, is he to the rear? Where is his location? And there's a lot of talk going on that right now throughout the armed forces.
BROWN: Gentlemen, both, thanks for joining us. Always fun to talk to you. Thank you very much.
And in case you didn't hear it, the first, second or third times we said it, we'll be talking to General Tommy Franks tomorrow, his first primetime interview. You know all of that. We'll start running it tomorrow night. And we hope you'll join us. We expect it to be really interesting and kind of fun, too. This is NEWSNIGHT, and we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Here in New York, you can argue that it is by far the most valuable ticket in town, and it has nothing to do with "The Producers." In fact, this ticket won't cost you a dime. Today was the first day the city handed out free tickets to the new viewing platform set up at ground zero. And today was the day as different from September 11th as you could imagine here in New York: cold, wet and very gray. Here's CNN's Maria Hinojosa.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARIA HINOJOSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): So many tickets are sold in New York City for shows, that the word has been abbreviated to simply "tkts."
(on-camera): What are you going to do while you're here in New York?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go to the Bucks game on Saturday and do a few plays. Go to ground zero tomorrow morning.
HINOJOSA (voice-over): But now, New Yorkers and tourists need tickets for something else, something we could have never imagined.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: May I have three tickets for ground zero?
HINOJOSA: Tickets for ground zero? Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much would it be?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's free.
HINOJOSA: Maybe free, but on the first day given out, there was already a line. Surreal is a word that comes to mind.
HINOJOSA (on-camera): You've probably stood in line to get tickets for a rock band. Standing in line to get tickets to go see ground zero?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, something like this is more important than a concert. I mean, it just is.
HINOJOSA (voice-over): But like concerts, there is ground zero memorabilia: snow globes, tiny trade center replicas, firefighter statues on top of manufactured rubble.
(on-camera): It seems like ground zero has become a tourist attraction.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's something that you have to see, I think. My mom went down and saw it and she said she didn't expect the emotion that she was going to have after seeing it.
HINOJOSA: So many different reasons to want to see that place, that sacred spot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We still have a right to go see what happened and see what we're fighting for. I mean, everyone lost something.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tickets? Thank you. HINOJOSA: At the site, a poster with the guidelines for viewing and police officers becoming ushers for the curious. Up, a newly built ramp, it seems as if they really are going to a show. But then, the looks of consternation, feeling dumbstruck, trying to figure out just where everything once was. Binoculars give way to cameras. Someone you'd never guess writing memorial graffiti on the platform ledge, the mangled wreckage like a ship breaking through the sidewalk.
Firefighter Bob Daly (ph) lost friends and has been trying ever since to find them on the site. The tickets, the platform, they don't bother him.
(on-camera): There's not a part of you that just kind of feels like, "You guys are gawking, and I don't want you to gawk"?
BOB DALY, FIREFIGHTER: I haven't quite -- no, I haven't quite gotten to that point. No, not at all. I really feel most people here are just here to show their support and also just to feel what maybe we're feeling.
HINOJOSA (voice-over): Feelings that are anything but touristy.
(on-camera): But inside, do you have any kind of, "Oh, this just feels strange"?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How could it not? It has to be inside. It's very, very strange. The whole situation is strange. The whole -- it was strange from day one, and it's not going to be anything but strange even for the future.
HINOJOSA (voice-over): Strange and unsettling. Maria Hinojosa, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: On ground zero tonight, we got a note the other day from someone who said we show this too often. We think not. We think it's important to remember. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: There's some things about the trial of the hockey dad in Cambridge, Massachusetts that takes it beyond one man's death and another man's legal odyssey. You have issues of parents and kids and sport, how parents behave or behave badly at a child's sporting event. We'd be lying if we didn't admit that we think the case, the story on its own merits is simply compelling and, yes, tragic through and through. And what it all comes down to is whether it was a quick, tragic fight or a brutal beating. And that was the crux of the final questioning of the defendant today by the prosecutor. Here's more of how it went.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
QUESTION: So he has you by the left wrist and he -- and you're -- you just all of a sudden just started to... THOMAS JUNTA, DEFENDANT: I didn't just start. After a couple of times letting him hit me, there was three off-balance punches. That's all I threw.
QUESTION: Did you hit him the first time, Mr. Junta, and stop, see whether he would stop?
JUNTA: I don't recall that -- if that happened or not.
QUESTION: OK. But you know you hit him three times?
JUNTA: Yes, I knew I...
QUESTION: You hit him the first time and you didn't stop to see whether or not that was enough, did you?
JUNTA: No, because he didn't stop either.
QUESTION: All right. So he's still trying to fight with you?
JUNTA: Yes, he was.
QUESTION: All right. And you hit him a second time?
JUNTA: Yes.
QUESTION: And he's still trying to fight you?
JUNTA: Yes, he was.
QUESTION: Mr. Junta, what part of your body are you punching? What part of his body are you punching?
JUNTA: I was hitting his upper side.
QUESTION: All right. And it's fair to say, Mr. Junta, that he's -- you're hitting this area, right? Because he's got his head turned in this direction, doesn't he?
JUNTA: It seemed like he may have been moving that way, yeah.
QUESTION: Moving that way like this?
JUNTA: Yeah.
QUESTION: And you, boom, right to the left side of the head?
JUNTA: I don't know if it was a boom. I don't know where it landed. I didn't -- wasn't trying to hit anywhere particular. I just wanted him to stop hitting me.
QUESTION: All right. But he's like this and you hit him again on the head, didn't you?
JUNTA: That was almost like a simultaneous punch. He was doing it to me, too. QUESTION: You never stopped between any of those punches, did you, Mr. Junta, to see whether or not that was enough?
JUNTA: It took about two seconds, ma'am, to throw three punches and that was it.
QUESTION: Well, it would have taken a lot less just to throw one punch, wouldn't it, Mr. Junta?
JUNTA: Yes, it would have, but he was hitting me back the whole time.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Closing arguments tomorrow.
Coming up, "Segment 7." And I assure you, "Segment 7" does not get any cooler than this. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We learned today again how treacherous the war in Central Asia can be. Afghanistan is a country they say of extremes, the terrain and the especially the weather. Summer, extremely hot; winter, bitterly cold. And it's winter now, as if you needed to be reminded.
While the Afghans may be used to it, U.S. forces have to toughen up a bit before they get there. And tonight in "Segment 7," the place where they toughen up fast. In fact, you might want to crank up the space heater. Our guide this evening, CNN's Beth Nissen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Winters in Afghanistan can be brutally cold, especially in the mountains. U.S. military planes flying over the region risk going down or being shot down into Arctic cold, minus 20 to minus 50 degrees Fahrenheit. To learn how to survive that, pilots and air crews come here to Alaska, 150 miles south of the Arctic circle to Eielson Air Force base outside Fairbanks, home of the Arctic survival school.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The will to survive is a big factor for you as a survivor. It's the desire to live, all right? And this is what's going to drive you. This is what's going to give you the motivation to get yourself home to your family, get yourself home to your job.
NISSEN: The school's motto: "Learn and Return." It is part of mission training for a military pilot.
CAPT. STEVEN BENTON, U.S. AIR FORCE: If I have to eject and I'm surviving in the Arctic conditions, then that is my new mission. My job at that point is to survive and make it home.
MSGT. DAVID MILLS, U.S. AIR FORCE: The primary focus of our school is to train a pilot for the unthinkable: getting shot down, engine malfunction over a very austere location. It can be here in Alaska. But we also prepare them for other environments, too, Afghanistan being one of them.
NISSEN: Students get two days of classroom instruction covering everything from making shelters out of life rafts and parachutes, to avoiding frost bite.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If it was your hand or your foot, it can actually become useless. You've got basically a frozen club that you're trying to deal with.
NISSEN: Classroom work is followed by demonstrations on how to find good drinking water...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once I've got water, now I can start thinking about food.
NISSEN: ... and how to forage for dinner.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that's where we can start looking at some of the plant life that's out here.
NISSEN: A survival hint: 90 percent of blue or black berries are edible; only 50 percent of red ones are.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Starting off with the academics. There it gives you a chance to hear it. Now this gives you a chance to visually see it. And then the next step is to go out the woods and do it.
NISSEN: Just after 0700 hours the next morning, students and instructors head into the Alaskan interior for two days and two long nights of field classes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going to have to find a way to combat the cold so that we can maintain 98.6. Remember, that's our main goal here, maintain 98.6. And then we can try to activate rescue. We have to stay alive to get rescued.
NISSEN: On a hike to the outdoor classroom through snow so cold it squeaks, students set priorities, use the first of their few hours of winter daylight to build a rescue signal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The idea that I'm looking for here is having an area that is much visibility as possible to where I can see an aircraft coming or the aircraft can see me.
NISSEN: Students use what materials they can find, small pine trees and branches.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was easy.
NISSEN: They arrange them into a standard rescue symbol: a giant letter V. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If someone was injured here, I would put out an X. That would be telling rescue forces that we need medical attention. Since we are not in that situation, we'll put out a V. That basically means: Need assistance.
NISSEN: The survival school does not teach winter warfare, although it does teach students to combat the cold.
(on-camera): How dangerous an enemy is cold?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It will kill you. The cold will take you down very quick. I mean, as fast as 15 to 20 minutes, you would be done.
NISSEN (voice-over): At the sun's feeble high on this day, the temperature is 25 degrees below zero, cold enough to kill by mere exposure to cause lethal dehydration. Extreme cold speeds up body metabolism, burns water. Students learn to gather snow and ice in pouches and melt it with body heat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would go ahead and brush the outside of the bag off so that as I'm putting it in between layers of my clothing, I don't end up with a whole bunch of wet clothing due to the snow melting.
NISSEN: Wet clothes harden into an icy shell, drop body temperatures sharply. Students are taught to stay active but move slowly, avoid breaking into a sweat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going to start loosening my layers of my clothing, open up the flight suit a little bit just to let that heat get out.
NISSEN: Students use another hour of weak daylight to find wood to make shelter frames and fire. Dead trees can be processed into logs and to kindling with emergency kit tools and a little knowledge of back woods physics.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Knock the snow off of it and I got a pretty good piece of split wood.
NISSEN: Standard issue emergency kits contain a knife and matches. Students learn how to use them and later how to use flint to make a fire in the icy cold.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Going to strike the match, cup my hand, wait till that match head gets going really well. Put it in there.
NISSEN: And a survivor has fire, essential warmth, a flicker of hope. It looks like a straightforward process until the students try to do it themselves with cold, numbed hands.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We push them out there and make sure that they can do it. And if they need a little help, we'll give them some help, so that one day if they flame out or they get hit by a surface- to-air missile or something happens, they need to get out of that aircraft, and they find themselves in an Arctic situation, it'll all come back to them. They may not think it will but it will all come back to them.
NISSEN: And give them a better chance of coming back home. Beth Nissen, CNN, in the Alaskan interior.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And that's our report for tonight. Did I mention that tomorrow, we'll be flying early to Tampa to talk to General Tommy Franks who's run the war in Afghanistan? And it's an exclusive interview, his first primetime interview. Did I mention that? And we'll start airing portions of it tomorrow night f from Atlanta. We hope you'll join us at 10:00 Eastern time tomorrow. Good night from all of us.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
