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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
27 Years After Murder SLA Members Charged; Shoe Bomber a Member of Al Qaeda?
Aired January 16, 2002 - 22:01 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Larry. Good evening again everyone. When we came to LA for the week, we hoped to find some good California stories. Being the hardworking reporters that we are, we found one. OK, we didn't actually find one. It landed in our laps, but that's splitting hairs isn't it?
It is a crime story and a story about the country's political history. It is about domestic terrorism. It is about murder. It has all the elements and it is a California story.
Today, as you may have heard by now, five former members of the Symbionese Liberation Army, the SLA, were charged with first-degree murder. Young radicals, the group that kidnapped the heiress, Patty Hearst, the people who robbed banks, killed people; shot it out with police here in Los Angeles, the five were charged in connection with a bank robbery.
Only one person in all that time, it happened back in 1975, only one person had ever been charged in the case. That person went on trial in Federal Court and was acquitted.
Whether the five arrested today are guilty or not, we do not know. We haven't a clue. A jury will decide that. But what we do know is that whatever their grievance, the SLA were terrorists, home grown, American terrorists. And they may have lived nice lives since, but if people died because of what they did, it is time; truly it is past time to pay the piper if they are guilty.
But it is a different accusation of terrorism that begins our whip around the world. It is the indictment in the shoe bombing case, CNN's Susan Candiotti working on that story. Susan, a headline from you please.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, there's a bit of similarity between Richard Reid and American Taliban John Walker. Walker charged with conspiracy to kill U.S. nationals overseas; Reid charged with the attempted murder of U.S. nationals literally over the seas.
Tonight the disheveled alleged shoe bomber is directly linked to al Qaeda. A computer may hold key clues. Aaron.
BROWN: Susan, thank you. To Guantanamo Bay, Cuba we go, CNN's Bob Franken on the videophone tonight, more detainees, more questions about their treatment. Bob, a headline from you please.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's not something you want to make light of, Aaron, but it is fair to say that when it comes to the prisoners here, the detainees, the watch word is the more, the scarier. And officials here say that explains their sometimes harsh treatment.
BROWN: Bob, thank you, back with you as well. A different story, a very different time as we said at the top of the program. But it is still powerful enough to make news a generation later. Frank Buckley on the charges in the SLA case. Frank, give us a headline plus tonight.
FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, nearly 27 years after a bank robbery left one woman dead, five people, five members of the SLA are being charged with the murder.
BROWN: Frank, we'll be back with you shortly, and we're going to spend a lot of time on the story tonight. Also coming up this evening, we'll talk with Senator Edward Kennedy. The Senator is proposing delaying some of the tax cut so that there's more money to spend on things like education, prescription drug coverage and the rest.
And the essayist, Ann Taylor Flemming, will sing for her supper tonight. She'll join us on the program and then eat dinner with us afterward.
Also tonight, another adventure in Segment 7. Tonight it's from Scott Harriett, yes the same guy with the wild pig chase from last night. In this case, it's burros, wild burros in one dusty town in Arizona that's made its peace with them.
There is much on the table, much to do. We begin with the so- called shoe bomber case. New charges against him and the computer files that may have tied him to al Qaeda.
These files depict a man by the name of Abdul Raouf, and everything about him looks just like the man who calls himself Richard Reid. This is compelling stuff, made all the more fascinating by how you get a hold of it. So we go back to CNN's Susan Candiotti in Washington. Susan, good evening to you.
CANDIOTTI: Good evening, Aaron. Investigators now hope to get more of a handle on the alleged suicide bomber with explosives packed in his sneakers, thanks in part to a computer bought by the Wall Street Journal on the streets of Afghanistan.
On it, files from a mystery writer documenting someone who sounds suspiciously like suspect Richard Reid, who had the book thrown at him today by a Federal Grand Jury.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI (voice over): Far from the lone wolf terrorist Richard Reid claims to be, authorities say the alleged shoe bomber is actually part of Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda terrorist network.
JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: Reid's indictment alerts us to a clear, unmistakable threat that al Qaeda could attack the United States again.
CANDIOTTI: Charges in a nine-count indictment include: attempting to use an airplane as a weapon of mass destruction, placing explosive devices, shoes, on an aircraft, attempted destruction of a plane, the attempted homicide of U.S. nationals during a transatlantic flight, and the attempted murder of 197 passengers and crew. Five of the counts carry possible life terms.
ASHCROFT: Al Qaeda trained terrorists may act on their own or as part of a terrorist network, but we must assume that they will act.
CANDIOTTI: The government crediting the Wall Street Journal for unearthing information now part of the Reid investigation, information confirmed by CNN.
Computer files left behind in an al Qaeda safe house in Kabul and purchased by the paper describe the travels of one, Abdul Raouf. His movements appear to mirror Richard Reid's and intelligence sources say they appear to be the same person.
Reid traveled to Amsterdam, Israel, Egypt and Pakistan. So did Raouf. On his way to Israel last July, Reid is searched before boarding an El Al flight. So was Raouf. Sources suggest Reid was in Israel scouting potential targets. Raouf does too, the Wall Street Journal reports, photographing popular locations in Israel and Egypt, calling them "exceptionally good opportunities."
Last July in Amsterdam, CNN has learned, Reid received a new British passport, complaining his old one was worn out. Five months later in Brussels, Reid claimed the same problem and was issued another replacement. Raouf did the same thing.
SKIP BRANDON, FORMER FBI COUNTERINTELLIGENCE OFFICIAL: I'm a professional cynic. I don't believe in coincidence. There are an awful lot of things that appear to be coincidence in his travels, where he was, going and getting new passports.
CANDIOTTI: Officials say the new information could lead to additional charged.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI (on camera): Reid may claim he acted alone, but sources say investigators are not convinced, and if the man described in that computer is Reid, as suspected, well at least one other person who took down all of his information was certainly in the loop. Aaron.
BROWN: Ok, Susan. Two things, we haven't talked much about military tribunals. This is not a military tribunal case. This is going to be in Federal Court, correct? CANDIOTTI: That's correct, and at the present time, it's scheduled in Federal Court in Boston. I suppose it's possible, there's talk it might be moved to Alexandria, Virginia, but right now it's in Boston.
BROWN: And it's in Boston because that's where the plane ultimately touched down. It's not where it was headed, but it's where it came down, right?
CANDIOTTI: That's correct. It was escorted there after they wrestled, after the passengers and crew subdued Reid in that aircraft.
BROWN: Susan, thanks very much. Susan Candiotti in one of the more fascinating cases that have come out in the aftermath of September 11th. The Reid case just getting underway.
A very different one now apparently ending, the government has decided to drop charges against an Egyptian college student. He had been charged with lying to FBI agents who were investigating the attacks on September 11th.
The information comes from his defense attorney. The student had been charged with lying about a pilot radio that had been found in the hotel room across the street from the World Trade Center.
Now to the detainees being held in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. More questions today about how they are being treated, and judging from the e-mails that we get, which is hardly a scientific sample, there's not a lot of sympathy for these people. Said one writer, "give me one reason why I should care." We'll leave the question on the table.
So once again, we turn to CNN's Bob Franken in Guantanamo and he's on the videophone. Bob, good evening.
FRANKEN: Good evening, Aaron, and clearly one of the reasons we were brought back to Guantanamo was the feeling by the military it needed to explain it's tough treatment of its detainees, as they prefer that they be called, and probably the best explanation would be that a best defense is a good defense.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN (voice over): Thirty more have come in. All together, 80 are now being held in their new outdoor prison home. They're about to be visited by representatives of the International Red Cross; amid charges the United States is not treating these detainees in an altogether humane fashion. It's a sensitive subject here.
GENERAL MICHAEL LEHNHERT, USMC SECURITY COMMANDER: These are not nice people. Several have publicly stated here their intent to kill an American before they leave Guantanamo Bay. We will not give them that satisfaction.
FRANKEN: Brigadier General Michael Lehnhert, who is in charge of security, told reporters the United States is being guided by the Geneva Convention rules protecting prisoners of war, but not rigidly adhering to the rules since the U.S. does not consider the captives POWs who would get certain legal protections as a result. Nevertheless, the general said the detainees, as they're called, are getting adequate treatment.
LEHNHERT: One towel is for washing and drying. The other towel is to be used as their prayer mat. They're afforded an opportunity to use it and they do use it.
They get flip-flops, like is worn by many people in the Caribbean. They get a jumpsuit. They don't get to pick the color.
FRANKEN: Each of the prisoners spends the day in his outdoor cell, on view at all times through the chain-link fence walls, for at least the next three months, which is the target for completing a modular building elsewhere on Guantanamo. One detainee had surgery to repair a wounded arm.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN (on camera): The officials here will not identify the detainees, except to say that they represent a large number of countries around the world and speak multiple numbers of language, particularly, Aaron, Arab, Arabic, and English.
BROWN: Bob, is there a timetable that we know of for putting these people on trial?
FRANKEN: There is not even the acknowledgement that they're going to be put on trial here, although many believe that it would be sort of silly to bring them all the way here, keep them here for a while and then not do that.
But as I said, no admission of that, and no, no timetable except that by building the facility they're building, they're making it appear that many of these people could be here for quite a while.
BROWN: I don't mean this in any sense rhetorically, though there may not be an answer. What is the alternative to putting them on trial? Just holding them until we decide, we as a country, the United States, decides not to?
FRANKEN: Well there are any number of questions that the United States has to decide. First of all, what is it going to regard these people and what their legal status is going to be. And, of course, then that will determine the form of their trial.
Under the Geneva Convention, they would get certain legal rights, but the United States, the Defense Department, others have said that they're not necessarily interested in giving to these people.
So, that's going to be the first question and it was made clear by various people here, on the record and in private conversations, nobody has given the orders from Washington how they're to be treated. We might learn more after the Red Cross visits tomorrow.
BROWN: Bob, thank you. Bob Franken back at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba for us this evening.
A moment ago, we talked about the al Qaeda computer files that pretty much came in over the transom, though I'm not sure the Wall Street Journal would concede it played out quite that way.
In any case, something a lot like that happened at the airport in Kandahar, only it wasn't a computer. It was a man. Officials say he's some kind of finance man for the Taliban and al Qaeda, and they say he just showed up at the airport yesterday. He told authorities who he was, and then he started talking.
Officials aren't saying much beyond that, no details. They do tell us he's a major operative in the opium trade. They are not calling him a detainee exactly, but also they say he is not free to go.
Law and order back home now. As we said at the top of the program, this is a story that reaches back to another time, a generation ago when the terrorists were the ones kidnapping Patty Hearst and robbing banks in California. We're talking about the Symbionese Liberation Army. A lot of people don't remember them or know the SLA only as an answer in a game of Trivial Pursuit.
One murder victim's son, however, never forgot them and today the rest of us got a reminder. Four members are in custody, former members. One remains at large. All charged in connection with a bank robbery and a shooting in 1975 that left one woman dead. Back down to CNN's Frank Buckley who is in Sacramento, California for us this evening. Frank, good evening.
BUCKLEY: Good evening, Aaron. As you say, four of the alleged SLA members are in custody. But one, James Kilgore, remains at large all of these years later, FBI investigators, police investigators continuing to look for him.
Authorities and investigators are the ones who, of course, brought the charges but it was perhaps one son's intention to bring justice for his mother's murder that may have made the difference.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BUCKLEY (voice over): Authorities in Sacramento County made an announcement that was 27 years in the making.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Accordingly, my office has filed Murder charges against Emily and Montague Harris, William Taylor Harris, Kathleen Ann Solia, Michael Alexander Borton, and James William Kilgore.
BUCKLEY: Murder charges for a woman killed at this bank in Carmichael, California in 1975, a crime committed say authorities, by the SLA, the 1970s radical group that kidnapped Patty Hearst.
And if this is the face of the SLA we remember, a kidnapped Patty Hearst turned bank robber, this may be the face of one of the SLAs least remembered moments, a moment this man, however, John Upsall, could never forget.
April 21, 1975, it was John's mother Myrna, bringing church collections to the bank for deposit, who was shot to death during a takeover robbery. Today authorities, a quarter of a century later, said those responsible for the crime were Sara Jane Olson, known then as Kathleen Solia; and Michael Borton; still at large, James Kilgore, here as he was in the '70s and as he may appear today.
But in custody finally, as John Upsall see it, this woman, Emily Harris, who Patty Hearst once identified as the shooter of John's mother.
JOHN UPSALL: Emily Harris was quoted in Patty Hearst's book as saying that her death doesn't matter anyways. She was a bourgeois pig. Those words have always kind of haunted us, because having the killers, the known killers never held accountable kind of kept ringing true, that her death didn't matter.
BUCKLEY: Of course, it mattered to John, who had a website dedicated to the crime to insure that no one would forget. And it mattered to investigators and prosecutors who began reexamining the case in 1999, after the arrest of Kathleen Solia who was featured in an episode of America's Most Wanted, then discovered living as one, Sara Jane Olson, a soccer mom in Minnesota living the kind of life, as John sees it, his mother was living before she was murdered.
UPSALL: And it was kind of the parallel life that Kathleen Solia assumed that was disturbing. How she had participated in the crime that took her life, and then kind of assumed it.
BUCKLEY: Solia or Olson as she is known now, turned herself in at her attorney's office in Los Angeles today, her lawyer saying she is innocent of the murder charge. Prosecutors say they do have a case against the former SLA members, based in part on new evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For example, using forensic testing procedures not available until recently, the FBI laboratory linked the lead pellets that killed Mrs. Upsall to shotgun shells found in an SLA hideout in San Francisco.
BUCKLEY: The trial of the 1970s radicals who became soccer moms and middle-class dads will move forward now. They're to be charged as the murderers of this mom, whose son never gave up.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BUCKLEY (on camera): So the four, or rather the five alleged SLA, former SLA members will all be arraigned, that is the formal charges will be brought against them on Friday. Of course, one still remains outstanding, but the formal charges will come Friday.
And curiously enough, Aaron, on Friday also Sara Jane Olson who was that soccer mom who was arrested a couple of years ago in Minnesota on charges that she was an SLA member and had planted bombs under LAPD cars, she's been convicted of that, she is going to be sentenced in connection with that crime on Friday in Los Angeles. Aaron.
BROWN: Frank, thank you very much. I know it's been a pretty crazy day up there for you. Frank Buckley for us in Sacramento. We'll talk in just a little bit with the lawyer for Sara Jane Olson here in Los Angeles. But before we do that, just a couple of other notes on this.
One of the oddities in this, Bill Harris, one of the people arrested today had been working as a private investigator for a lawyer. That is just one of the odds and ends.
There are lots of questions about this case as there would be in any case 25 years later. We're joined now by Sergeant James Lewis. He is the spokesman for the Sacramento Sheriff's Department, and Mr. Lewis, thanks for joining us.
SERGEANT JAMES LEWIS, SACRAMENTO SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT: Thank you.
BROWN: This case actually, or a case surrounding - stemming from the bank robbery did go to court. It went into Federal Court and it ended in an acquittal. What will make this different?
LEWIS: Well, we hope that the evidence will show that the members that have been charges with Myrna Upsall's murder is that there's sufficient enough evidence to bring a successful prosecution effort.
We've been working very diligently over the last year. We established a task force in March, 2001 to resurrect some of the old evidence, to go over the written statements that were taken back in 1975, and to go over every piece of evidence to make sure that it was ready and prepared for a prosecution effort.
BROWN: Twenty-five years ago is a long time. Obviously these cases are complicated. Are the witnesses you need still alive and available?
LEWIS: We have a sufficient number of witnesses to present at the prosecution. There have been witnesses that have passed away, and unfortunately we can't use their testimony.
But the District Attorney is very confident at this point that there is again, sufficient witness statements, physical evidence, and other factors to bring a successful prosecution.
BROWN: As Frank Buckley reported, one potential witness it would seem to us would be Patty Hearst, because she refers to this conversation she had with Emily Harris. Can we assume, and I know you're not prosecuting this case, but can we assume that Ms. Hearst will be a witness here?
LEWIS: I would anticipate that her testimony will be an aspect of the case. Certainly that was something that we, here in Sacramento, were looking forward to monitoring in the LA prosecution effort. As a result of the plea agreement, we didn't have an opportunity to see Patty Hearst testify, so I would anticipate that that is coming here.
BROWN: Did Ms. Hearst have a role in this bank robbery?
LEWIS: I can't get into the details of her involvement. She did, however, chronicle her involvement in her book, which has been widely publicized naturally. But, you know, at this point I'm trying to be as cautious as I can be with the evidence in the case to eliminate the possibility that we disclose something that may be crucial in the prosecution effort. So I'm really limited at this point as to what details about evidence that I can get into.
BROWN: I understand that, although all that evidence ends up in the defense attorneys hands anyway. Just one more point on Miss Hearst to make something clear for people who may have forgotten.
One of the reasons one presumes she was not charged is she was pardoned, correct?
LEWIS: She was pardoned by President Clinton ultimately. She also received, during a Grand Jury testimony, she received - what's the word I'm looking for?
BROWN: Immunity.
LEWIS: Immunity. I'm sorry, yes. She did receive immunity here in a Sacramento court proceeding through a Grand Jury proceeding.
BROWN: So she was immunized, came into the Grand Jury, told what she knew and I know you won't talk about Grand Jury testimony any more than that, but that does tell us something about how the case developed. Sergeant, I appreciate your trying to walk this tightrope with us tonight. I know how difficult it is not to give up too much information, at the same time trying to get some sense of the strength of your case. We appreciate it.
LEWIS: Right.
BROWN: Thank you.
LEWIS: Thank you, James Lewis with the Sacramento Sheriff's Department. They made the case and over the next few weeks and months, we'll have a better sense of what sort of evidence they, in fact, have. It's one thing to bring the charge, and as you'll hear in a moment, it's another thing to make it work because in a moment, we'll talk with Sara Jane Olson's lawyer.
Also, how do we believe Mummar Khadaffi when he says he's with the United States in the War on Terrorism? There's a lot more to do. This is NEWSNIGHT from Los Angeles.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: As we mentioned a moment ago, among those charged in this 1975 bank robbery murder is Sara Jane Olson. She's facing sentencing on Friday for another crime of the same period, been a fugitive for nearly 25 years, and her lawyer Shawn Chapman is with us tonight, and it is nice to see you. Thanks for coming in.
SHAWN CHAPMAN, SARA JANE OLSON'S ATTORNEY: Thank you.
BROWN: Did you know this was coming?
CHAPMAN: No. You know, we've heard rumbling over the past year and a half, but nothing every comes of it and I heard some rumblings yesterday, but again I didn't attach any particular significance to it.
And then this morning, my client called me at about 8:00 and let me know that here brother-in-law had been arrested, Michael Borton, that his house had been surrounded and he'd been taken out in his underwear.
And then, I guess half an hour later we heard that Bill Harris had been arrested while taking his young kids to school, and that they had watched their father arrested, and I guess the five-year-old is traumatized.
And we presumed having heard that, and then later hearing that Emily Harris had been arrested that Sara would be arrested, and she came to my office and we waited and she wasn't arrested. I tried to reach the Sacramento authorities, the DA's and the investigating officers, and got no call back.
And so, we then presumed that she wasn't going to be arrested, and perhaps she would not be charged. And then at about 3:30, I got a call from the investigating officer in the case who said "we'd like for her to surrender" and I made arrangements for her to come back to my office and she surrendered there.
BROWN: And can you tell me anything about what that scene was like for her?
CHAPMAN: Oh, it was - it was very, very sad. Her children were there, her three daughters. Her husband was there. Her kids were obviously just devastated. Everyone was crying. I think everyone in our office was crying. It was Sara's birthday today, and we'd had a little celebration for her earlier. We had a nice cake for her, which was a bittersweet moment.
But for their mother to be taken from them this afternoon was, I'm sure, the most difficult moment of their lives and it was difficult to watch.
BROWN: Maybe this is not a fair question to ask a lawyer, but I'll do it anyway. You can just beg off if you want. Do you understand the son up there in Sacramento, waiting 25 years and this is his moment to find justice -
CHAPMAN: Yes. BROWN: -- and regardless of the lives and the good that people may have done. I'm not suggesting your client is in any sense guilty here, but you get that part?
CHAPMAN: Absolutely.
BROWN: OK.
CHAPMAN: I get it. It was a horrible, horrible crime. It was a senseless murder. It was a tragedy, and so I certainly understand his need for justice.
BROWN: And can you tell me - you haven't had to deal with this very much, much time to deal with it, can you tell me anything about how you defend it or what you know about the case and what you believe the strength of the case is?
CHAPMAN: Well, as you probably know, there have been five Sacramento prosecutors who have deemed this case not prosecutable, Jan Scully being the latest, and there's really no evidence. Nothing has changed.
I believe that the Sacramento DA's Office simply buckled under the pressure, which was brought to them by the LA DA's Office who pushed really hard for there to be a prosecution in Sacramento, and I believe by the determination of John Upsall, which I understand.
But I don't believe the case is any more prosecutable than it has been over the past 26 years, which is the reason why it's not been prosecuted. The only witness is Patricia Hearst. There is a memo in the file from the U.S. Attorney who interviewed her in connection with this investigation many years ago, and the memo says "this is not a believable witness. We can not use her. Nothing she says can be believed."
BROWN: Is that evidence then? Will you bring that sort of thing into evidence, that memo?
CHAPMAN: Well, whether or not that can come into evidence will have to be litigated -
BROWN: Yes.
CHAPMAN: -- at some later point. I mean it's really the opinion -
BROWN: Yes.
CHAPMAN: -- of the U.S. Attorney, which is not necessarily admissible evidence.
BROWN: Yes.
CHAPMAN: But I think it's certainly compelling that the U.S. Attorney evaluating the case spoke with the only witness who says these people did it, and the manner in which they did it and said "we can't use this woman. She's absolutely unbelievable."
BROWN: It's tough and it's a tough day and a tough week, because you've got a sentencing for Sara Jane on Friday, right?
CHAPMAN: Yes, so we've just been preparing for the sentencing. She has got family and friends who have flown in from St. Paul to speak on her behalf on Friday, and we intended to spend the day, tomorrow, speaking with them, getting them acquainted, getting them prepared for the proceeding on Friday, and then this all happened.
BROWN: Thanks for coming in. It's nice to see you again.
CHAPMAN: It's good to see you too.
BROWN: We haven't seen each other for -
CHAPMAN: Many years.
BROWN: -- a while.
CHAPMAN: Yes.
BROWN: It's that other life we led.
CHAPMAN: Right.
BROWN: Terrorism of a different kind, wounds caused by terrorism, whether at home or overseas, are slow to heal. That's the story of the SLA, and it's also the story of Pan Am 103. Libya, a nation few would argue had been a supporter of the war on terrorism, apparently wants to turn over a new leaf now. That may be hard for some to believe or even stomach. You may be one of them.
The story anyway. Here's CNN's David Ensor.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is a question that until recently few thought would ever arise. Can Washington take yes for an answer from this man?
MOAMMAR GADHAFI, LIBYAN LEADER (voice of translator): Now I believe there isn't anything that hinders the resuming of normalizing relations between the two respective countries.
ENSOR: For some years now, the Libyan leader has been trying to rehabilitate himself in the West and restore relations with the U.S. Gadhafi kicked the Abu Nidal group and other Palestinian terrorists out of Libya. He paid $25 million in compensation to victims of the French UTA airliner downed over Africa in 1989 by Libyan agents, according to a French court.
Most importantly to the U.S., Libya turned over for trial by a Scottish court in Holland the two suspects in the bombing of Pan Am flight 103. At a meeting last week with Assistant Secretary of State William Burns, a senior Libyan intelligence official even discussed paying massive compensation to families of Pan Am 103 victims. Moves on that are expected, U.S. officials say, within the next year.
PHIL REEKER, U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: There are no shortcuts around this, and they need to fully comply with that. That's what we'll be looking for.
ENSOR: Once that compensation is paid, some argue the Bush administration should give Gadhafi a second chance.
RAY TAKEYH, WASHINGTON INSTITUTE FOR NEAR EAST POLICY: But the signal that the United States will send through this particular process, this does -- yes, actually, if you meet the preconditions that we set forth, you abandon terrorism as an instrument of your policy, you can come off the terrorism list.
ENSOR: That move would lift sanctions and allow U.S. oil companies back into profitable Libyan fields. But experts say the oil companies are not pushing.
TAKEYH: I don't think the politics of oil are drawing this thing as much as people seem to think.
ENSOR: Even if Gadhafi does everything the U.S. asks, given his chequered history, the Bush administration may have a hard time deciding to reestablish relations.
TAKEYH: I don't think he's crazy, but I think he's suspicious of the West, and he's rhetorically intemperate, always, and will always be so.
ENSOR (on camera): Still, lifting sanctions against Gadhafi could send a message to other nations accused of supporting terrorism -- Syria, Iran, Cuba -- that redemption is possible, and the rewards can be sweet.
David Ensor, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Taxes and tax cuts on the table. We'll talk with Senator Edward Kennedy when NEWSNIGHT continues from Los Angeles.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Senator Edward Kennedy today proposed delaying part of the Bush tax cut. The senator said we'd be better off using that money on domestic needs.
It's unclear tonight how much support such an idea really has. None in the White House, you can be sure of that, and none that we've seen from congressional Republicans. It's not even clear how many of his fellow Democrats would go along. I talked to the senator earlier today. He was in Washington, and as you will see, I was not at this desk but in a hotel courtyard in Pasadena. It's been that kind of a day.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
Senator Kennedy, this is an election year. Your party's trying to hold onto the Senate, win back the House. Is this a winning issue for the Democrats?
SEN. TED KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: It's the responsible issue. The state of our economy is the number one issue. If the economy wrong, nothing else is right. I think Tom Daschle has outlined a very important program to get our economy off the ground in the short term.
And I believe that as we look down the road, we're going to be short on resources. And the country, if it's going to address the needs on the home front, is going to have to, I think, defer the rather extensive tax cuts that benefit the wealthiest individuals.
I'm talking about tax cuts in the years 2004, '05, all the way out to 2010, if we're going to meet our responsibilities in education, in prescription drugs, in Medicare, and Social Security.
BROWN: Senator, I suspect the Republicans are going to cast this as just an example of Democratic tax-and-spend. So how are you going to respond?
KENNEDY: Well, I think you're going to have to really read the talk, read the speech. And I think that'll only come out after a considerable debate. We're not talking about reduce -- increasing people's taxes. We passed a tax cut of $1.3 trillion. A trillion of that effectively will go into effect.
All we are saying is that tax breaks after 2004 -- 2004, not 2002, not 2003, 2004 -- and out to 2010 should be postponed until we are able to deal with the national needs, such as investing in our children, other domestic needs, prescription drug, and preserving Medicare.
That's what the debate is -- should be about. I know there'll be distortions and misrepresentations of my positions. But that, I think, is a fair issue and question.
With that deferring, we are going to also see, I think, a more favorable situation on long-term interest rates that'll be favorable to our economy. So I think this proposal makes sense in terms of addressing the home front, which is very important if we're going to be effective on the war front, and I think it makes sense in terms of our fiscal situation as well.
BROWN: You're a pretty good nose-counter there in Washington. If a vote on this were taken today, would you have the votes? Or do you have a fair amount of persuading to do?
KENNEDY: It's an uphill battle today, clearly. But I think American people are beginning to understand that we have gone through in September 11 experience. We're not talking about the conditions that we were in a year ago, we are talking in a post-September 11 experience.
And with the post-11th experience, I think we have to look at all of the factors that are impacting our national budget. I welcome the opportunity to hear from the administration on their budget. But we're really dealing with a new day. And it does seem to me, if we're dealing with a new day, we have to do what is going to be responsible in getting our economy off the ground in the early steps, and then we have to look about whether we are going to pay attention to domestic needs in the home front.
We're effective in the war front. We're supporting our president in the war front. But we have to look, are we going to have the resources to make a down payment on domestic needs? And should we defer the tax breaks for the wealthiest individuals that go into effect in 2004 and beyond, where we can make the down payment in terms of investing in our children, investing in prescription drugs, preserving Medicare and Social Security, and other domestic needs.
I think it is the sensible, the rational, and also the fiscally responsible thing to do, and I'm hopeful that we can have a good debate, and I hope that we can be successful.
BROWN: Well, I'm sure the first part will happen, you'll have a good debate. Senator Kennedy, it's always nice to talk to you. We appreciate your time today.
KENNEDY: Thank you very much. Good, thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Senator Edward Kennedy. We talked to him earlier this afternoon here in California.
In a moment -- this is terrific, what a -- Ever wonder -- I'll do this again. In a moment, ever wonder what happens -- there you go, Aaron -- on the press plane? It's not quite Willie Nelson's bus, but there is music. This is NEWSNIGHT from L.A.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Secretary of State Powell is on an important swing through South Asia, and this story is about that, sort of. He's trying to coax India and Pakistan to the negotiating table and away from the brink of war. The secretary will also go to Afghanistan, the first cabinet-level visit there in 31 years, and that is important stuff too.
But that said, we do want to give you a look at what, so far at least, is the biggest part of any important trip, the stuff you don't often see, may not even have known about, like what the secretary of state likes to sing when the sun goes down. And oh, is there a movie on these flights?
Our State Department correspondent, CNN's Andrea Koppel.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Seven a.m. Tuesday morning, outside the U.S. State Department. This is where our journey begins. Actually, for most of us, our journey began much earlier.
(on camera): Get my newspapers, because I'm definitely going to have plenty of time to read them.
(voice-over): Before long, though, we're at Andrews Air Force Base going through security and waiting for Secretary Powell to arrive.
(on camera): If you learn nothing else here, it's the importance of what is about to happen.
(voice-over): That means it's time to choose seat assignments. One colleague, Alan Cypress of "The Washington Post," thinks we're all ridiculous.
ALAN CYPRESS, "THE WASHINGTON POST": We've just gotten so soft as reporters. You know, the folks are out there worried about if there's going to be electricity to hook up their computers, how many days they have to go until they can get a shower, whether they're going to have to fix a meal of rice. And we're worried about whether our business class seats recline or not. That's journalism?
KOPPEL: There's time for one last cigarette, and before we know it, we're on our way. It'll be another 15 hours before we arrive in Pakistan.
While some store their carry-on bags, Secretary Powell walks to the back of the plane to say hello to the traveling press, something he does almost every trip.
(on camera): Here's the galley, where they prepare about 1,000 delicious meals in the course of the next week.
What's for dinner tonight?
UNIDENTIFIED FLIGHT ATTENDANT: Filet mignon.
KOPPEL: Uh-oh, the boss is (inaudible) to hear that.
(voice-over): Now, as the veterans will tell you, there are some simple tips that can make these trips a little easier. Just ask "USA Today"'s Barbara Slavin (ph), who won't leave home without a neck pillow, eyeshades, or earplugs, or even...
(on camera): Where are the sleeping pills?
As we make our way toward the front of the plane, we pass the secretary's senior staff.
(on camera): "Vanity Fair" is the most classified (inaudible).
(voice-over): But the piece de resistance is the secretary of state's cabin. There's a bed, a bathroom, and a closet. And we also learn the secretary likes to listen to music here.
(on camera): Abba?
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Abba's great (inaudible).
KOPPEL: The things you learn!
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: "Dancing Queen"?
POWELL: I can sing it if you need me.
KOPPEL (voice-over): But with another especially long day ahead of us, most try to grab a few hours of shut-eye. As for me, I found my own cozy corner to curl up in.
Andrea Koppel, CNN, on the road with Secretary Powell.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: A reporter's life.
Up next, essayist Anne Taylor Fleming. We're going to talk about the '60s and the SLA, and will these things ever go away? We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Brought the orchestra with us.
One of the things we like about the program is that sometimes we just invite interesting people to join us. These people are not selling books or pitching movies or running for office, even.
Essayist Anne Taylor Fleming is one of them. She lives out here, and I promised her dinner if we ever brought the program out, and we did, and we will. But first she has to work for a while.
Nice to see you.
ANNE TAYLOR FLEMING, ESSAYIST: Nice to be here.
BROWN: When I ran into you, I said I wanted to talk about the '60s. Will it ever end? Are we still fighting the same cultural fight 40 years later?
FLEMING: Well, I think that -- I said to you that if I were out to dinner with people tonight, and the Sara Jane Olson thing came up, it would be right to the '60s. They'd blow right by the SLA thing, and we'd be right back refighting -- was the '60s the worst, most messy, most licentious decade in American history, and did it set us down the primrose path of, you know, disaster and degradation?
I'm perfectly cheerful to admit some -- to some excesses for the '60s, not personal, mind you...
BROWN: No, I understand.
FLEMING: You understand. But it was an amazing decade, I mean, you know, to be young then and to be particularly young and female then, it was as if somebody had opened all the doors. I mean, there was an enormous amount of positive stuff that happened in the '60s. I think that keeps getting lost.
BROWN: Talk about that. It occurred to me actually earlier in the program that the '60s were actually about mid-1965 to about mid- 1975.
FLEMING: Exactly.
BROWN: But it just sounds better -- And that -- and you can start sending the e-mails in now, OK? But...
FLEMING: No, but I think -- that is historically accurate.
BROWN: Yes.
FLEMING: I'm going with you on that.
BROWN: No, on this point I'm about to make...
FLEMING: Oh.
BROWN: ... that I've always believed that some of what -- I think it was the excessive hatred, if you will, for Bill Clinton, former President Clinton, was rooted not in anything that he did as a governor or president or any of those other things, but goes back to what he did or didn't do or thought or didn't think in the '60s.
FLEMING: I think he was absolutely -- I totally agree with you. I think he personified that decade in all its colorations. I mean, he was in some ways, I think, the most amazing thing about Bill Clinton was he was the best of it and maybe the downside of it too.
But everybody one knew then was wrestling with the draft, everybody was deciding whether or not to (inaudible), or not deciding, as the case may be, trying -- I mean, I just think that there is -- I think you're right -- in the craw of the country, or a lot of it, still that sense that the '60s ruined everything.
And I'm always waiting for the sort of silent majority, which I think would embrace a lot of the '60s, to speak up. I mean, it was a decade that moved along the dialogue for equality, for civil rights, for women, for gays and lesbians. I mean, it blew the lid off. And yes, it was messy, and yes, people got hurt, and yes, there was collateral damage. And yes, there were people who took, you know, maybe idealism to a deranged place.
But, you know, on base, I think it was -- there was a lot of positive stuff. BROWN: You're the smart person in the room. Why is it we can't let it go? And I think people actually on all sides of it can't let it go, those of us who look fondly back on the '60s do still in an odd way see it, I think, as the best time in their lives, and other people will see it as the worst time in the country's -- I don't know if they'd say the country's history, but perhaps in their lifetime.
FLEMING: Yes, I mean, you and I don't -- I don't know enough, to be blunt, if there was another decade in American history that historians could speak to that had this amount of drama, emotion. I mean, also there was a war on, and a war that would be increasingly unpopular, that tore the country's guts open.
So that's the underpinning as well. It was a tumultuous, volatile, redefining time.
BROWN: We'll continue this over dinner. I hope you like Kentucky Fried Chicken.
FLEMING: Uh-uh.
BROWN: Oh.
FLEMING: We're going to do better, aren't we?
BROWN: Yes, we are. Thank you. Nice to see you.
Segment Seven when we come back -- and we shall, in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: OK now, those of you who were with us last night know that I got to this point in the program, the introduction to Segment Seven, a really nice piece about pigs, if that is possible, and pretty much made no sense at all. I could make excuses about that. I was tired, the prompter failed, it was kind of a goofy lead in the first place.
I could do all that, but I won't. I will simply promise to do this lead to Segment Seven better. Are you ready?
Here's a story about jackasses. It was reported by Scott Herriott, a guy we'd like to hire.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SCOTT HERRIOTT (voice-over): I was really, really excited about doing another out-and-about-y-type piece for CNN. I'd heard of a small burg in northwestern Arizona where wild jackasses roam the streets. And since that's the animal I feel the most akin to, we went.
Tourists have come from all over to witness these majestic creatures. Their energy, their big heads...
(on camera): How often will a burro kick either another burro or a human? Anybody? Anybody got an answer on that one?
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: They kick each other all the time.
HERRIOTT: Got asthma? And that's what, what's that stuff coming off here?
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Cyanide.
HERRIOTT (voice-over): The people in Oatman (ph) love their burros. But as in all relationships, there are incidents.
(on camera): They're not intentionally trying to run over the burros, they're just in a hurry.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: No, no, no. Yes, just in a hurry.
HERRIOTT (voice-over): But these beasts of no apparent burden aren't the only draw on this old mining town.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: (inaudible), I love you.
HERRIOTT: Yes, it's also the people of Oatman that give it its glistening allure.
(on camera): Now, who's Oatie?
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Oatie's the town ghost.
HERRIOTT: Oh, OK.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: I would say he's about five-foot-eight, broad shoulders, very nice looking, from what I understand.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: It could be that he's waiting for someone to sue the spirit, I don't know. But he's here. There's been -- there have been too many manifestations, I guess you could call them, for anybody to doubt him.
HERRIOTT: What's the most common manifestation?
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Plus the (inaudible) -- plus the pictures. Have you seen the pictures?
HERRIOTT: Yes, we got them on tape already. That's kind of freaky.
(voice-over): It's not just burros and poltergeists that bring the tourists. There's a bit of Hollywood history as well.
(on camera): So this is the Gable-Lombard suite.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: This is the Gable-Lombard suite, this is where they spent their honeymoon night.
HERRIOTT (voice-over): Yes, Tinseltown's golden couple of the early '40s consummated their passion for each other in these glamorous surroundings.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Look at that sardonic look. I mean, oh, my goodness, you don't even need to look at her.
HERRIOTT: At the end of my day in Oatman, I felt a deep connection with those that live there. But more importantly, I realized that I'd actually come to love the place.
Scott Herriott for CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: The program has range.
We'll see you tomorrow at 10:00. Good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.
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