Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Taliban Walker in Virginia Jail
Aired January 23, 2002 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: You're impressed they haven't thrown us out of here, I think is what you're impressed by. Thank you, Larry, and good evening again. We are in Atlanta tonight.
There were two arrivals today, Americans back home from Afghanistan, Americans on drastically different missions, and when you look at them side by side, it is really something. It makes you stop and think about it some.
On one coast, on the West Coast, Bremerton, Washington just west of Seattle, a military town, the USS Vinson came home. We should say 3,000 crewmembers came home, ten months at sea.
First off the ship today, 76 men who missed seeing their kids being born. The fathers of the Vinson dropped two million pounds of bombs on Afghanistan. Said one crewmember today, "I certainly hope that we did enough for America."
And then there was this arrival, in a different Washington, suburban Washington, D.C. John Walker, the American Taliban, 20 years old, not old enough to drink but old enough and apparently committed enough to fight with the enemy.
We couldn't really see him, of course, just seemed like an anonymous looking figure, shackled and shuffling through the darkness, but he too is a young American and he too made choices about his world and his country, and whatever you think about what he's done and what he may be guilty of, it is for us at least hard to look at, this shackled and shuffling young man and not feel a bit sad.
We'll spend a lot of time on the Walker case tonight. It begins our whip around the world with the correspondents covering it. Susan Candiotti, working the Walker story. Susan, the headline from you.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, John Walker spends his first night back in the U.S. certainly not the way his parents would have wanted it and certainly not the way he probably would have expected it. He's in jail, and he almost had his first visitors -- Aaron.
BROWN: Susan, thank you. Now to the other detainees, the ones in Guantanamo Bay. Bob Franken is there, scratchy voice and all. Bob, a headline please. BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we'll try and give some new voice to the controversy here, Aaron. You spoke of arrivals a moment ago. We'll talk about where there were no arrivals, Camp X- Ray.
BROWN: Thank you, Bob, a late development on the Enron story today, and a major one, if not altogether surprising. Allan Chernoff's covering this for us. Allan, a headline from you tonight.
ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Ken Lay resigns as Chairman and Chief Executive of Enron as Congress prepares hearings into the company's collapse and the destruction of documents.
BROWN: Allan, thank you. You might see in the lower right-hand part of the screen, that's Rwanda. We're having a little problem with the signal, but we'll solve that we hope and we'll include the volcano story in the broadcast as well tonight.
So there's an awful lot to do as we go along. We're also going to spend some time tonight taking a look at a bill that was signed today by the President, a bill to help the victims of terrorism in the country, September 11 and others.
Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton was at the bill signing and she will join us tonight. So will Marian Fontana. She's the leader of those who lost loved ones on September 11. More to the point I guess, she is a widow and she'll be here as well.
One thing that is drawing tourists to New York City, Ground Zero, we've talked about this before. It is a little uncomfortable to talk about it as a tourist site. Keith Olbermann joins us tonight, an essay on Ground Zero.
So there's a lot to cover. We begin with the Walker case, and an awful lot has happened in just the last hour or so there. There's nothing about this story that doesn't fascinate us or, in some respects, terrify us as a parent or just make us mad at times.
Everyone's got a theory about who this young man is. On the editorial pages, he's a metaphor and a punching bag and a poster child for just about everything. Tonight though in many ways, it's a lot simpler. John Walker Lindh is home and he's got a date in court. Once again, CNN's Susan Candiotti.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI (voice over): John Walker, back on U.S. soil, escorted from a helicopter, handcuffed and shackled, shuffling across a grassy field to a waiting van and a jailhouse cell, his final stop after a trip that took him across three continents. A military transport plane flew Walker to an airport just outside Washington, before a helicopter ride to jail. Walker's parents drove to the jail to see him but were turned away.
MR. LINDH, FATHER OF JOHN WALKER LINDH: We're a little disappointed, but the guards did tell us that John was in good health and we're very glad to hear that.
CANDIOTTI: The family has criticized the government for not allowing a lawyer to talk with Walker after his capture. He'll meet a judge first thing Thursday morning, the 20-year-old's first official appearance. The charges will be read, including conspiring to kill fellow Americans overseas and providing material support to terrorists. He'll hear the maximum penalty he faces, life behind bars. The government is expected to ask bond be denied.
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The great strength of America is he will now have his day in court, and he will be judged impartially and fairly.
CANDIOTTI: Key to the government's case, Walker's statement to the FBI. The government says he signed a waiver to talk without a lawyer present. Walker allegedly admits he was told Osama bin Laden had sent people to the U.S. for suicide missions four months before the September 11th attacks, that he was thanked personally by bin Laden for joining his jihad.
KENDALL COFFEY, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: If Walker's confession gets in, they're going to want to throw him in prison, toss away the key, or worse. It's absolutely devastating.
CANDIOTTI: Walker's attorneys, whether appointed or private, will challenge his alleged confession.
BERNIE GRIM, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: If his statement is ruled by a judge to be involuntary, it's inadmissible for all purposes throughout the course of the case. They can never use it against him.
CANDIOTTI: Harder to challenge may be his interview with CNN, from which the government quotes extensively in the indictment, claiming Walker knew exactly what he was doing when he took up arms with the Taliban.
JOHN WALKER LINDH: My heart became attached to them. I wanted to help them one way or another.
CANDIOTTI: These CNN pictures taken after his capture, show a battle worn warrior, a far cry from the youngster who grew up in California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI (on camera): To prove their point that Mr. Walker does indeed accept the lawyer hired by their parents, the parents announced this today, that they received a letter only today from their son, dated back on January the 8th and handwritten, they said, by a member of the U.S. military on Walker's behalf.
In the letter, Walker states according to the parents' lawyer, that he acknowledges that he's happy that a lawyer has been hired. But, Aaron, it will be interesting to see what happens in court tomorrow, especially since the parents did not have an opportunity to meet with their son this night. So, will he accept the lawyer? His parents think so. Back to you.
BROWN: Well, there are a lot of things that went on in just the last little bit here, Susan. The lawyer wanted to talk to his client and that did not happen either, correct?
CANDIOTTI: That's right. Parents wanted to talk with him, lawyer couldn't either. They just didn't let him in, and they acknowledged that when they went over, they did not have any assurance that they would be successful, and they weren't. They were turned away.
BROWN: Susan, thank you very much. The day in court begins now we presume tomorrow. Susan Candiotti, outside of Washington tonight. The charges that Walker faces, as Susan said, could land him in prison for the rest of his life, and to some that is not enough.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice over): The argument can be made that John Walker, facing a lifetime in prison for aiding the enemy, is a lucky young man.
DOUGLAS KMEIC, DEAN CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF LAW: The formal charge should be treason, and I think the formal conviction should be treason, and I think what we'd really be talking about then is sentence. And I think a sentence less than death in this instance, knowing what we know from the public record, is probably warranted.
BROWN: For now, Douglas Kmeic may be only one of a few voices urging that treason charges be filed against Walker, but then Kmeic was one of the first voices to suggest that military tribunals be used to try foreigners in the wake of September 11.
KMEIC: I think the Attorney General is prepared to bring that charge. I think he's still open to bringing that charge. I think he's still investigating the charge. I don't think he wants to bring it if, in fact, it will just put the nation and Mr. Walker Lindh through a set of exercises that will go nowhere.
BROWN: Treason, a word we all believe we understand, is a complicated charge to prove.
ELISA MASSIMINO, DIRECTOR, LAWYER'S COMMITTEE FOR HUMAN RIGHTS: I think the government is going to have its hands full proving the case against him on the charges that its already filed.
BROWN: The argument goes like this, that John Walker may not have known, really known what he was doing, and proving treason is even harder. It is the only criminal act defined by the Constitution. You have to show someone is actually waging war against the United States, giving aid and comfort to the enemy, and that two independent witnesses of the same act of betrayal testify in court, and that would prove difficult in the case of John Walker.
MASSIMINO: There have been some reports of people who actually talked to him through conducting these media interviews who say that he's under the impression that he hasn't done anything wrong or illegal. So he may not understand the nature of the situation that he's in.
KMEIC: What we know from the public record suggests that the most appropriate charge is treason, and that thus far, the United States has been particularly generous to him by charging him with something less, namely a conspiracy to murder U.S. nationals abroad, or merely to assist terrorist organizations.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (on camera): We stress we don't know precisely how John Walker and his legal team are preparing to defend themselves, or defend him against the charges he faces, but we are very curious how lawyers might go about it.
Joining us tonight from Los Angeles, Mickey Sherman former prosecutor, currently defending Michael Scakle (ph) in Connecticut in one of the more complicated cases that we've come across. Nice to see you, sir.
MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Good to see you.
BROWN: I'm curious how you pick a jury, all things considered, in the wake of September 11 and all the publicity that Mr. Walker has received. How do you possibly find a jury that is not tainted by publicity?
SHERMAN: You have to take a very long time to do it. In this case, you may even want a judge trial, a trial by a court. I don't know that you're ever going to find a jury that's going to be very impartial at all. And more importantly, I think this is a deal case. I don't see a trial. I see them making a deal. It will be something, a life sentence or something perhaps a little bit less, but this is not the kind of a case you want to try.
BROWN: Well, Mickey why would you make a deal on a life sentence when a life sentence is the most you could get if you took it to a jury?
SHERMAN: You want something less. Obviously you want something -
BROWN: Right.
SHERMAN: And I don't see them upping the charge to treason. I don't see them looking for a death penalty here. We're still dealing with a 20-year-old kid. Not to justify or explain what he did in any way in any positive terms, but the problem with this is we can't explain, why would any young kid, well-to-do from Marin County or any county, go and fight with the Taliban and subject himself to the physical abuse that he did? It just doesn't make sense.
The problem with John Walker is that we have him, Aaron. We don't have bin Laden. We don't have any of the big shots. And here's a guy we have in our hands, and we need somebody to really be angry about and unfortunately he got elected.
BROWN: Interesting that the person in the construction you're drawing here is a young American and not one of the men in Guantanamo or still in Afghanistan. When you say, Mickey, that you think this is a deal case, are you saying that it is unwinnable before a jury?
SHERMAN: Pretty much so, and I hate to sound defeatist. But even if they're successful in throwing out the confessions or admissions made to the government agents, I mean last I checked, you don't have to be advised of your rights by CNN.
I mean you can go to one of your studios here and pull out the tape and he's going to get convicted.
BROWN: And does it help him at all that at the beginning of that interview, and we said this before, he said he didn't really want to talk with the camera going. The camera and the microphone were clearly there. The lights were clearly on. He was clearly aware. Does that in any way change the value to the government of the CNN tape?
SHERMAN: I don't think so. I think the only way it would change it would be to ask for an attorney. If he said "I'd rather not talk or maybe I should have a lawyer." Whenever a criminal defendant even equivocates in that area, "maybe I should have a lawyer, what do you think?" Then everything should stop right then and there. But that's not the issue here. He freely spoke apparently. He just wasn't happy about being photographed, but that's tough for him unfortunately, unfortunately for him.
BROWN: And when the interview, the CNN interview was conducted and perhaps, I'm not positive about this, but perhaps at least some of the interrogations that went on, he was not in especially good shape. You see in the interview how woozy he looks. He's getting medical attention. To what extent is that important?
SHERMAN: Well, the defense can be made that, you know, he really wasn't in a position to adequately waive his right to counsel, or waive his right to be silent because he was deprived of food, shelter, somehow.
But again, it wasn't the government who was doing that. It was CNN and that makes a difference.
BROWN: Yes. And in a sense, I mean we're sort of drawing out a conversation here to no end. Because if we go back to the beginning, what you said is this is virtually, virtually an unwinnable case.
SHERMAN: Well no case is totally unwinnable, but I wouldn't be betting a lot of money on his defense here. I think - first of all, I think they should be allowed to visit him. I don't understand the rationale of keeping him from his counsel at this point.
I can justify them keeping the parents away for some security reasons perhaps, but in the criminal justice system in the United States, one is entitled to counsel as soon as that lawyer appears at the police department door and this is no different. It's a little bit magnified, but he should be able to have his attorney the moment that attorney arrives. I don't understand that.
BROWN: We'll try and find an answer to that, Mickey. It's nice to talk to you.
SHERMAN: Good to be here.
BROWN: Thank you. Mickey Sherman with us tonight from Los Angeles. Now on to the detainees, the ones in Cuba and in Afghanistan. From Afghanistan, there's word that some of them may be talking. The FBI Director who was in Kandahar today said interrogators have gotten information from the detainees that will prevent, help prevent a number of terrorist attacks.
As for the ones at Guantanamo now, the flights into the base there have stopped arriving, but just for now. We head back to CNN's Bob Franken with more on that, and we'll tell you know, Bob is fighting the throat.
FRANKEN: Well, the warden today, Aaron, in speaking about the controversy over the humane treatment said this is more like a Holiday Inn than the Hanoi Hilton, referring to the infamous prisoner of war camp in Vietnam. But in any case, they almost ran out of room.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN (voice over): At the moment, the flights bringing in detainees are suspended, at least for a day or so, until new cells are finished. At one to a cell, they're near capacity, and that's one of the reasons they're suspending the flights.
BRIGADIER GENERAL MICHAEL LEHNERT, SECURITY COMMANDER: First, we have a large enough population to begin interviewing the detainees that are here. Second, it gives us the opportunity to remove detainees who have been interviewed from the general population. It wouldn't do to have them comparing notes.
FRANKEN: That raises not only security issues, but concerns that doubling up would add fuel to the human rights controversy. But officials here continue to emphasize security. There are occasional minor incidents, they say. Overnight, for instance, a detainee spat on a guard and had to be subdued. And this is how the warden defined subdued.
COLONEL TERRY CARRICO, HEAD OF SECURITY, CAMP X-RAY: We will enter the individual unit with the amount of force necessary, minimum amount of force to control that individual and put his hands and feet shackles back on and then give him a cooling down period away from the detainees in his individual unit.
FRANKEN: Meanwhile, five of the injured detainees have received surgery for a variety of broken bones and wounds from the combat. At the base hospital, the emphasis is the same, security first, then medical treatment. CAPTAIN AL SHIMKUS, GUANTANAMO NAVAL HOSPITAL: When a detainee comes to the hospital for care, he is accompanied by at least two security personnel and two security personnel with him during his entire time at the hospital, even at the operating room until he goes to sleep and then as he wakes up, security continues to be with him through recovery until he's brought back to the Camp X-Ray.
FRANKEN: Back at Camp X-Ray, the Red Cross representatives continue to question detainees, and now the interrogations have begun by the investigators.
These nearly completed buildings are called the Joint Interrogation Facilities. Officials here say the interviews are already underway in other parts of the camp.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN (on camera): Officials would not say which ones were involved, but they did admit that some civilian agencies are taking part in the questioning. No lawyers are present. General Lehnert says that this is for information, not for prosecution at this point -- Aaron.
BROWN: Bob, thank you. We won't ask any questions. We'll let you save what voice you have left. Thank you. Bob Franken at Guantanamo Bay. The focus for the last several days has been on the detainees at Guantanamo, John Walker Lindh tonight, but not on the victims of September 11. We'll change that and talk with Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The President signed a bill today that provides some tax relief to the victims of terrorism in the country, not just the attack on September 11, but the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995 as well.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The government can not take away your pain and sorrow, but it can bring the killers to justice. It can devote its energy and resources to try to prevent other families from experiencing what you're going through, and can help remove some of the financial obligations it imposes to ease your burdens.
BROWN: New York Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton was at the signing today. She and the President agree on the tax relief measure, but they find themselves in disagreement on how best to get the billions of dollars needed for homeland defense into the right hands.
The President's budget proposes giving the money to the states, the governors to disperse. Senator Clinton believes it would be better done in block grants to the cities themselves. That's one of the things we're going to talk about tonight. We're pleased to have Senator Clinton with us. Senator, good evening to you. Good talking to you. SEN HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: Good evening, Aaron.
BROWN: Even as someone who likes public policy, this sounds a little bit arcane. OK, tell me why it matters whether the governor gets it or the mayor gets it in any state or city.
CLINTON: Well, I think the first point is that it's important and I applaud the President for putting more money into our first line defense here at home, our police, our firefighters, our emergency workers. That's absolutely essential. I introduced a bill calling for such commitment of funds last year, and so I'm delighted that there will be this in his budget.
Where perhaps we do have a difference is that I'd like to see it get as soon as possible into the hands of the people who are administering this defense on our front lines at home. You know, if a mayor has a problem, he's not going to call the White House or the Senate or even the Attorney General or the Governor.
First off, he's going to call his local police and fire departments and it's those departments and those officers who are, you know, really under the gun literally. They're the ones who have to be defending us. And I'd like to see the money go directly to them.
BROWN: Let me make an argument here, that I don't think we want, or maybe we do but it is for each individual town necessarily to have their own unique plan, that maybe what the President is shooting at here is let each state design a plan that works best for it. Doesn't that make some sense?
CLINTON: Well, in fact my legislation would provide that because the money would only go directly to communities of 50,000 or greater, and those are the places that have to have their own plans that are really most at risk of any future terrorist attack.
But that about 30 percent of the money would go to the state for coordination, for smaller communities, I just know that when I travel around New York, whether it's New York City of Buffalo or anyplace in between, the mayors who are supporting my proposal. The national organizations of firefighters and police officers who've looked at it, all agree that they just don't want another layer of bureaucracy. They don't want any politics from whatever their state government might be. They want to get that money to pay their police and fire. They are already running up overtime expenses and the like.
So I think this would just make it cleaner and easier. So we're in total agreement about doing what needs to be done for homeland security, to match our commitment to national security, but I just believe we should get the money out quicker, cleaner, and into the hands of the people who are actually performing the services.
BROWN: In general, what sort of marks do you give the administration on - not on the warfront but on the homeland security front? Are you satisfied generally with how the administration's responded? CLINTON: Well, I certainly think that we're going to find out what the plans are when the budget is released, when the President gives his State of the Union Address, when Governor Ridge provides more details about his plan. I know that they've all been working very hard. This is an overwhelming task and I'm delighted that we have the kind of commitment from the top that it's going to take.
But we have to see the fine print. You know, I also sit on the Budget Committee, and today we were painfully reminded that in just one year, we've gone from a surplus to a deficit position, so we've got some tremendous challenges to us about where we're going to find the funds to do what we need to do on homeland security.
So I'll be waiting to see the budget, but I certainly applaud the administration's efforts to put this at the top of our national priority list.
BROWN: It is sad in many respects also, I suppose, at some level fascinating to look at how the nation's pocketbooks have changed in a year. Your state, New York State is dealing with an enormous deficit, New Jersey next door, the same problem.
Does the Federal Government have a responsibility there?
CLINTON: Well, I think so. You know, in the Budget Committee hearing today, it was disclosed that the projected surplus that we heard about last year is $4 trillion less than it was then over 10 years.
There are many reasons for it having to do with 9/11, the slowdown in the economy, the beginning kick-in of some of the tax cuts and the projections from that. So I think that there are a lot of different factors at work here.
But clearly, the states are facing tremendous revenue challenges. We've got shortfalls in most states. Probably no place has been harder hit than my state because of 9/11 being directly a cause of our loss of revenues in the city and the state. And today, we learned even more about how states are struggling with rising unemployment, with rising health care costs, with people losing health benefits.
So I think we do have a clear need, and I hope that the administration and the Congress will help states address those needs.
BROWN: Final question for you, I know you'll be honest. This is an election year coming up. Do you expect that it's going to be a pretty partisan year on both sides of the aisle in Congress?
CLINTON: You know, Aaron, I think that with regard to two of our three big challenges, namely national sense and homeland security, we're going to work together. We're going to try to do the very best job we can to protect our country and our citizens, our men and women in uniform.
When it comes to the economy and what we need to start growth going again and create jobs, there are some honest differences. I don't think that any of us will shelve our strongly-held opinions at the door. WE will debate them and I hope we'll come to a good resolution that will help America as we, you know, move through this next year.
BROWN: Well, if you ever want to air those out, you're always welcome here.
CLINTON: Thank you, Aaron.
BROWN: Thank you, Senator. It's good to talk to you. Senator Clinton from New York with us this evening. A bit later in the program, by the way, we'll talk with Marian Fontana. She's the co- founder of the 9/11 Widows and Victims' Family Association. There are a lot of intriguing issues there and she's coming up a little bit later.
Up next Enron, the news tonight and the news tomorrow in Congress, all that ahead. This is NEWSNIGHT from Atlanta.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: To Enron now, we thought the hearings tomorrow on Enron would be news enough for one night, and then late this evening the company announced, or at least what's left of the company announced that CEO Ken Lay is stepping down. Mr. Lay said all the investigations are making it too difficult for him to concentrate on the business.
And tomorrow, the curtain goes up on the next act in these investigations, this one on Capitol Hill. Once again for us tonight, CNN's Allan Chernoff.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): A behind the scenes struggle between David Duncan in the middle, the fired Andersen partner who oversaw the Enron audit and the Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations. Subcommittee chair, James Greenwood.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES GREENWOOD (R) PENNSYLVANIA: Well, we've subpoenaed him. He still doesn't want to come. He wants immunity. We're not going to grant him immunity.
CHERNOFF: A source close to Duncan says he will appear and simply invoke the Fifth Amendment protection against self- incrimination. Ironically, his attorney had argued to the subcommittee, "Mr. Duncan has not yet had access to all the documents necessary for him to prepare for a formal hearing."
REPRESENTATIVE BILLY TAUZIN (R) LOUISIANA: I think he needs to be there, to explain why he was willing to give us four and a half hours of testimony and wouldn't go public with the same testimony. But he has his rights and we'll respect his rights.
CHERNOFF: According to Andersen, it was Duncan who ordered employees at the Houston office to shred and delete Enron-related documents. Duncan has told Congressional investigators he was only following company orders in the form of a memo, reminding the engagement team of our documentation and retention policy, written by Andersen attorney Nancy Temple. She will testify.
Of particular interest to the subcommittee, an October 23rd Andersen e-mail addressed to David Duncan and other executives discussing a conference call agenda which included the SEC, legal representation and response to SEC.
Andersen says Duncan had directed the document disposal at a meeting on October 23rd. Andersen's Chief Executive, Joseph Berardino, who testified before Congress in December, fought off the subcommittee's request. He said the Chicago Headquarters is sending Executive Dorsey Baskin who oversees the firm's policy on audit and work papers.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHERNOFF (on camera): In all, there should be four Andersen executives who will appear before the subcommittee, three of whom are willing to talk about the destruction of documents. As far as Ken Lay, well he remains on Enron's Board of Directors, which is now looking for a new Chief Executive Officer. Aaron.
BROWN: Well that's a job I'm sure we'd all like to have. Are there names flying around?
CHERNOFF: Aaron, the person who will be selected will be a turnaround specialist. They call them workout guys on Wall Street, somebody who really can try to turn this company around, pull it out of bankruptcy and get it on its feet again. We don't know names just yet, but not likely to be a famous chief executive officer, more somebody who has dealt with serious bankruptcies in the past.
BROWN: Allan, thank you. Allan Chernoff in New York for us. You heard from Congressman Billy Tauzin a moment ago. It's not going to be the last time you're going to hear from him either. He is a lawmaker who enjoys the spotlight and he's in it now. He's also a man who likes a pretty good dogfight. CNN's Kate Snow tonight with a profile.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KATE SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Billy Tauzin is a busy guy. So are his investigators, sifting through documents, flying to Houston for interviews.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you like to correct the record, since you're under oath?
SNOW: Tauzin has never shied away from controversy. He led the charge against Ford and Firestone, questioned network news execs about their coverage of Election 2000, and demanded the Red Cross justify how it dispersed funds to September 11 victims. In the words of Tauzin spokesmen, now it's time to take Enron and Andersen to the woodshed. TAUZIN: You're not going to deny us the facts in this hearing. We're going to find them. We're going to get them, and if anybody has been about destroying or shredding or hiding information from us, we're going to call you to task for it.
SNOW: It might seem like Tauzin is in an awkward position. After all, as a high profile chairman, Tauzin has raised millions in campaign contributions, including money from both Enron and Andersen. In fact, Tauzin tops the list for Andersen contributions to House members, $57,000 since 1989.
SCOTT HARSHBARGER, COMMON CAUSE: The fact that there are particular campaign contributions doesn't in and of itself mean they should recuse themselves. It does though, put a big burden on them to make sure that their actions speak louder than their words.
SNOW: The money leads to talk, talk that Tauzin is being tough just to prove he's not beholding to Andersen, talk that Tauzin dismisses.
TAUZIN: It's not about a relationship. Whether you're a good guy or bad guy, friend or foe, if you do something wrong in this country, our committee's going to be on you.
SNOW: At Thursday's hearing, the focus is on Andersen. All four witnesses are linked to the accounting company, not Enron. Publicly Democrats say they hope Tauzin's investigation will eventually broaden.
REPRESENTATIVE HENRY WAXMAN, (D) CALIFORNIA: Nothing should be off the table, including the political relationship of Enron and the Bush Administration. We shouldn't pull any punches, because our paramount concern should be what happened to the Enron employees and investors who were robbed of their financial security.
SNOW: Privately, Democrats wonder why Tauzin isn't going after Enron up front, particularly in light of allegations this week that Enron too was destroying documents.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW (on camera): One Democratic lawmaker says Tauzin is being a loyal Republican soldier, trying to divert attention away from Enron to protect the President. Tauzin says he's not coordinating with the White House, just putting first things first.
TAUZIN: I mean, I can't ask my investigators to go through boxes and boxes and boxes of documents, only to find out that the real important ones have been destroyed.
SNOW: "When you're criticized by all sides," Tauzin says, "you're probably doing something right." Kate Snow, CNN, Capitol Hill.
BROWN: And the hearings begin tomorrow. When we come back, to Africa and the devastation and the volcano there. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Since the 11th of September, you could say we've gotten used to the idea that a disaster can really be us against them. What's happened in Africa is a reminder that most of the time disasters just happen, the natural kind of disasters. No one to blame of course, but the pain for those who suffer is nevertheless real. Catherine Bond tonight in Rwanda.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CATHERINE BOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): It's only a week since the volcano erupted, but already Congolese families are putting their lives back together again, right on the edge of the lava flow.
"The hardest part," says this woman Bettini, "some of her family are still missing. This one's mother hasn't come back yet," she says. She and three of her children ran. "I'm going mad with worry" she says.
In just this area, Red Cross volunteers say the volcanic lava has made thousands upon thousands of people homeless.
"Personally, I registered 700 families the day before yesterday" says Sherum (ph). "Yesterday, 1,200 and just now I've come back and started again another 109."
Many of the volcanoes survivors depend on the charity of family and friends, a total of 13 people now living in this mud-walled house with nothing much to eat. "Still" says Felina (ph) "hunger is the least of their worries. Her home and possessions gone, she's lost track of three children too.
"You can't compare things and children" she tells us. "I can buy more things with God's help but not people. I can't get them back."
Children missing, houses and livelihoods destroyed. People collect scrap and corrugated metal roves.
BOND (on camera): You can tell by the extent of the destruction to homes embedded in the lava flow, just how difficult it's going to be for people to rebuild their lives.
One day a lava flow, the next a bridge. The initiative of Congolese labor and a German agency, a road linking the two sides of Goma the volcano has split.
In no time, the road has a popular name, the Ponjoel (ph) or Joel's bridge, the name of a pastor of a nearby church. A highway for people and vehicles, not just during the day but well into the night.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BOND: Although this returned to a semblance of normality in the Congo, actually marked a much graver crisis. Here in the eastern Congo, there's been a war going on between the government and rebels, but also between Rwandan former army soldiers and Rwanda's current army.
And in that war, it's estimated by an American-led survey team, as many as 2.5 million people have died in the past two years, possibly the largest hidden emergency in the whole world at the moment.
That's an estimate of the number of people who have been brutally killed by one militia faction or one army or the other, or as the result of hunger and disease, for lack of being able to access disintegrating health services. Aaron.
BROWN: Catherine, it is a sad place. Is it, in the days since you first took a look at it, has the situation improved at all there?
BOND: Well people are very resilient, because they've been without responsible government possibly for as long as 40 years. So they know how to look after themselves. But it will be extremely difficult for them to bounce back.
I mean for example, civil service in Goma, which is controlled by a rebel authority, hasn't been paid by the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) government for many years now, so they don't have salaries but they still continue their jobs remarkably many of them. But they're teachers, doctors, lecturers without salaries, they rely on contributions from parents and students to keep them going and they also have to do a little bit of business on the side.
Now the central business district of Goma has been virtually destroyed, and that means that there will be even fewer jobs, and even less economic prospects to help them recover. Aaron.
BROWN: Catherine, thank you. Catherine Bond who's across the border in Rwanda tonight. It is sad but true. This terrible war has been going on and most of us have paid too little attention to it. Fair criticism of us, I guess. Coming up on NEWSNIGHT next, another victim of another disaster. As we mentioned earlier, Marian Fontana will lead some of the families and the widows of the victims of September 11 joins us on NEWSNIGHT from Atlanta.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: September 11 transformed a lot of people into leaders or perhaps we just began to see qualities in them we had missed before. President Bush has emerged as a powerful force, Rudy Giuliani, the former Mayor of New York as well. And some average people, if you want to call them that, became leaders as well and we have one of them with us tonight.
Marian Fontana, co-founder of the 9/11 Widows and Victims' Families Association. She met with the President today at the White House, at the bill signing, and she talks with us tonight. It's good to see you.
MARIAN FONTANA, PRESIDENT, 9/11 WIDOWS AND VICTIMS' FAMILIES ASSOCIATION: You too. Thanks.
BROWN: One quick easy one and then we'll talk about some other things. It must have been very, maybe exciting is not the right word, but exciting to be at the White House for all of that today.
FONTANA: It was. It was an honor and a privilege to be there and see, to meet the President and also to meet a lot of Senators and Congressmen and really see how the government works and to be invited there was an honor.
BROWN: Yes, I can't imagine. Tell me where the next big battle, as the families see it, is?
FONTANA: Well, we're dealing with a couple of issues right now. We're still handling the victims' comp and we're really trying to get out there and dispel the image that we're making millions of dollars from this fund and we're really trying to appeal to Feinberg (ph) to change the restrictions on the fund so that some families can get an equitable and fair disbursement of the funds. So that's what we're working on firstly.
And then secondly, we're dealing with memorialization and trying to come to some kind of agreement about what we want on the site and what we think would be appropriate at the site.
BROWN: I want to go back to the first thing you mentioned there. This is kind of an awkward subject.
FONTANA: Yes.
BROWN: But are you worried that there's a little bit of a backlash out there that some people are beginning to think that some families are greedy?
FONTANA: There is that perception. That's why we've really been trying to dispel that. I think that people think we're asking for more money and that's really not the case. What's happened is that the way the statute's laid out, it's laid out in such a way that certain sectors of the victims' families get nothing and others get a lot. So all we're really asking for is something equitable and fair.
Uniformed personnel in particular will receive nothing from the fund, essentially because we are penalized for having pensions and life insurance, and I think it's unfair because, you know, firemen work really hard for their money and, you know, my husband took a large deduction from his paycheck when he was alive and I think it's unfair to be penalized for it at this point.
BROWN: I guess the argument is that the funds exist to make sure that these families are OK.
FONTANA: Right.
BROWN: That's really the point is to make sure the kids go to school, the families have food, the mortgages get paid.
FONTANA: Right.
BROWN: And if there is a pension there or if the city or the state is taking care of one group or another, why not let that money go somewhere else?
FONTANA: Well, I think really it's a moral issue. I think that, you know, he lived less of a life when he was alive because he was taking large portions of his paycheck out towards his pensions and then to be penalized for it now just seems like an unfair way of handling the fund.
We're certainly not asking for millions of dollars. We never have and we really are only asking for an equitable disbursement of the funds. We certainly want the, you know, dishwasher to get the same as everyone else, and we certainly are not wanting to take away from any other factions of the victims' families, but we just want to make sure that everyone gets an equitable and fair part of it.
What really should have been done is have a large, have the sum of money disbursed equally among all the victims so we wouldn't even have to be here tonight discussing this.
BROWN: Oh, if things were so simple.
FONTANA: I know.
BROWN: It's nice to talk to you again.
FONTANA: Thank you.
BROWN: And see you looking well.
FONTANA: Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you. Coming up next on NEWSNIGHT, a must-see - no, I don't want to say it this way. When we come back, we're going to talk about Ground Zero and how people are looking at it. It's a Segment 7 story. Keith Olbermann joins us when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Finally from us tonight, Segment 7. Tonight we're looking at what's become of Ground Zero. Here's a line overheard by someone on our staff a few weeks back, down near Ground Zero. After looking at the destruction, one woman turned to another and said "should we go to Rockefeller Center next?"
Yes, Ground Zero as a tourist spot. I actually couldn't say that a couple of moments ago. It seemed so awkward, the way most things are. It's a lot more complicated, of course, than a one-liner. Ground Zero is certainly that.
We're delighted tonight to talk with this with someone you probably already know, someone who will join us a couple times each week to share what's on his mind. Keith Olbermann joins us. Keith's in New York. Keith, good evening to you. KEITH OLBERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, good evening to you, a pleasure to be here. The place to spot changes in this city's culture is probably in the transportation system, and not to overload you on the Simon and Garfunkel, but the evidence of the Ground Zero economy, if you will, is literally written on the subway walls.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
OLBERMANN (voice over): At the Columbus Circle Station, the token clerks write messages only when they hear the same question endlessly. The answer was written just after Christmas. "Happy Holidays" it says "To Ground Zero, take Downtown A to Chamber Street."
Out-of-towners now go to Ground Zero, the way they used to go to Broadway or the Statue of Liberty. Thus, the construction of a viewing platform at Fulton Street and Broadway, 5,500 visitors a day, most of them take pictures. Does that make them heartless?
Was it heartless to go to a small town in Pennsylvania to hear a President speak, to tread on Gettysburg's most hallowed ground? Residents there for decades thought so.
Are the visitors to the Arizona Memorial at Pearl Harbor ghouls? Do only conspiracy freaks go to Ford's Theater or the Texas School Book Depository?
Humans need to see with their own eyes. To vicariously experience tragedy is not to gawk at it, nor to feel a guilty thrill, nor to disrespect the memory of those who died.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It hit us in our heart. It hurt everybody, and I want to see what happened to the city and what happened here.
OLBERMANN: The term being used here now is "pilgrimage" but it may still be more than that. It may also be recovery.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We lost a young man who was a contemporary of my oldest son, and we're going to go over to Ground Zero to pay our respects. We were to his - they had a memorial service for him up in Connecticut and we went to that, and now we're going to bring closure to the situation by going to Ground Zero.
OLBERMANN: At the World Trade Center platform, you don't just wait in line, or to use our New York term "wait on line." You are directed a few blocks east to the South Street Seaport to pick up a free ticket. Thus, you must pass a gauntlet of vendors down Fulton Street, and store after store that has been starving for your business these four months. And finally into the Sea Port itself, where the ticket you get will be for a few hours from now, or even for tomorrow.
What are the odds that as you spend some time here, you will also spend some money and this place needs your money. Three blocks to the southwest of the platform, businesses have been reduced to writing "we're open" on the very concrete barricades that surround them. A pilgrimage, and when the memorial, any kind of memorial rises here, a pilgrimage and an industry.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
OLBERMANN (on camera): But how long will it be an industry? Well, you'll remember that the murder of the Austrian Arch Duke Ferdinand lit the spark for World War I, and to this day on display in a museum in Vienna costing money, is the car in which Ferdinand was riding when he was assassinated. Aaron, that was 87 years ago.
BROWN: And I remember that well. I have - we got a note from someone today who said, they must have seen a promo about this, and said "how like New Yorkers to turn this thing into a tourist trap."
But it's so much more complicated than that it seems to me. This is an American place. Something important happened here, and at least the times I've been down there, I don't know about you, I've gone down there a lot. I've never seen anybody behave disrespectfully.
OLBERMANN: It's not just quiet it's still. It is people deliberately not speaking loudly, deliberately being as respectful as they can, muffled laughter, and that has sort of hurt the city obviously, and yet it has retained that sense of memorial. I think this is going to be the early 21st Century Gettysburg.
BROWN: I always feel sad but better when I've gone there.
OLBERMANN: Yes.
BROWN: Welcome to our little nightly venture. We look forward to your contributions a couple times a week.
OLBERMANN: Already my great pleasure. Thank you, sir.
BROWN: And don't get too comfortable in my chair, OK. I'll be back there tomorrow. Good night from Atlanta, and all of us at NEWSNIGHT.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
