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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Bin Laden Confident in October Interview; Interview With Sen. Paul Wellstone
Aired January 31, 2002 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: And good evening again, everyone. We're back in the state capital of Minnesota, in St. Paul, tonight. It is very much a Minnesota winter night. It's been snowing here most of the day. And it has been a busy and interesting day too, the kind of day you have when you do this work for a living and you go home. A local TV interview program first thing in the morning.
Isn't that pretty? That is the state capitol. Isn't that something?
And a speech to the legislature and the staff at about noontime, an hour on the radio, a radio talk show in the mid afternoon, and everyone here in Minnesota has been Minnesota nice, gracious and kind, which proves two things. People's memories are thankfully short, and Thomas Wolfe was wrong, you can go home again. Just don't stay too long.
So we fly home tomorrow.
But not before a couple of very nice Minnesota stories tonight, and a compelling and unsettling news day as well.
We begin our whip around the world, which tonight is pretty much Washington, with new concerns about terrorist targets in the United States.
Barbara Starr has been working this story out of the Pentagon. Barbara, a headline from you, please.
BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, U.S. intelligence has been collecting all sorts of material across Afghanistan -- photos, videos, and lots of documents. And now tonight there indeed are new concerns about the threat of possible future terrorist attacks -- Aaron.
BROWN: Barbara, back to you shortly.
Bin Laden, interviewed months ago by Al Jazeera television, we saw it for the first time today. There's a lot of controversy around this. Wolf Blitzer in our Washington bureau. Wolf, the headline, please.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, late last October, the Arabic-language Al Jazeera television network conducted a one-on-one interview with Osama bin Laden somewhere, we don't know where, but somewhere in Afghanistan. Al Jazeera never aired it, saying it was not newsworthy.
CNN has now obtained a copy, and we consider parts of the interview indeed very newsworthy. We'll show you those excerpts -- Aaron.
BROWN: Wolf, thank you very much.
And to the White House next. An old debate has resurfaced yet again. Kelly Wallace has the duty this evening. Kelly, the headline from you, please.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, you won't find too many people who would argue with the federal government extending prenatal care to low-income pregnant women. But it is what -- it is the way this Bush White House is going about it, by changing the definition of a child, that has abortion rights activists up in arms -- Aaron.
BROWN: Kelly, thank you. And we'll be back with you, back with all of you shortly.
Also tonight, we'll talk a range of issues with Senator Paul Wellstone of Minnesota. He is smart, he is outspoken, he is as liberal a Democrat as there is in the Senate. He's also running for reelection, so we'll tread carefully during the interview.
Also tonight, the changing face of this state. It's not just the Swedes and the Norwegians any more, it's become home to thousands of Somalis and Southeast Asians. It is certainly not the state we left 35 years ago, and we'll take a look at that.
Also tonight, a popular bumper sticker here in Minnesota, for fans of the Minnesota Twins, at least, "Selig is not my bud," says the bumper sticker. There was a lot of anger here and frustration over the plan by major league baseball to kill off the team, a team with history, a couple of World Series championships, and a really bad stadium. So we'll play a little baseball, or business, or both, tonight.
And to make matters either better or worse, depending on your point of view, there is a mystery guest. Now, think about this for a moment. This is where I grew up. There are a lot of people who know far too much about me here. I have no idea what's in store.
I do know it's a busy hour ahead, and we begin with news that brings on that queasy feeling yet again. It's a little comforting -- little uncomfortable and very terrifying all at the same time, and it comes down to this. We know a lot more and assume the government has known a lot longer about what al Qaeda may be up to. It's the kind of news that makes sleep restless, and we suspect it has made sleep restless since it started leaking out.
Once again, here's CNN's Barbara Starr. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
STARR (voice-over): Photographs of many landmarks, including Seattle's famous Space Needle, have been found in recent weeks as U.S. forces have searched al Qaeda safe houses in Afghanistan. As one Pentagon official said, these weren't somebody's vacation pictures.
Indeed, it now appears that the al Qaeda was casing the U.S. for months, looking for potential targets across the country, including hydroelectric dams and power lines. Washington state was of particular interest.
REP. NORM DICKS (D), WASHINGTON: It was the kind of high-profile targets that we have, Boeing, Microsoft, the Trident submarine base, that we have to take seriously these threats.
STARR: Officials emphasize they have no specific knowledge of the location or timing of any attack. But that may not be too comforting.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: In the years ahead, it is likely that we will be surprised again by new adversaries, who may also strike in unexpected ways. And as they gain access to weapons of increasing power -- and let there be no doubt but that they are -- these attacks will grow vastly more deadly than those we suffered several months ago.
STARR: A classified intelligence report completed in the last two weeks concludes that the al Qaeda does have the intent to attack the U.S. again. It warned that nuclear facilities in the Pacific Northwest could be vulnerable as well as Navy warships in the Persian Gulf.
The FBI late last year warned all nuclear power plant operators of still another threat. A senior al Qaeda operative being detained and interrogated by the U.S. said there were plans to fly a commercial airliner into a power plant. His claims were never substantiated.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
And today, FBI director Robert Meuller said he does believe there are al Qaeda sleeper cells in the United States, possibly preparing for more attacks. With the Super Bowl and the Winter Olympics just days away, the U.S. intelligence community is watching very closely -- Aaron.
BROWN: Barbara, it's one thing, I suppose, to find drawings of something. It's another thing to say there is a plan, there was an actual plan to do something. So which is it here? Is it an actual plan, or some drawing, some idea, somebody had?
STARR: Well, you know, that's exactly the problem for the intelligence community. They don't know. If there is never any attack, they don't know if they've thwarted something, if they've made security so tight the terrorists believe it's just too hard to launch an attack. They know that there is intent, they know that there is capability. But the problem for the intelligence community right now is, they don't know what the al Qaeda may be planning -- Aaron.
BROWN: Barbara, thank you. Barbara Starr at the Pentagon tonight.
So once again, as it has so many other times in the last several months, it comes down to this. How do you protect yourself against both the known and the unknown? Neither is easy. There are lots of targets. As Barbara mentioned, in the days ahead there's a number of high-profile events, the Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City next month, the Super Bowl in just a couple of days.
These warnings are unsettling. Are they necessary? Do they do more harm than good? Lots of questions to kick around for a bit.
We're joined this evening by Washington's governor, Gary Locke. Governor Locke joins us from the Washington state capitol in Olympia. And in New York, where the World Economic Forum is under way, Police Commissioner Ray Kelly is with us as well.
It's nice to see both of you again.
Governor Locke, let me start with you. You've had a busy couple of days. Do you know now if this was a plan to hit the Space Needle, or somebody said, You know what, The Space Needle would be an interesting target?
GOV. GARY LOCKE (D), WASHINGTON: Well, thank you very much, Aaron. And I had a chance to look at the copies of these photographs that were recovered from the al Qaeda network in the caves in Afghanistan, and there are about 21 pictures that deal with locations in the state of Washington. And I can tell you that there was only one picture of the Space Needle, no pictures of any power dams or power-generating facilities at all. And many of them were just general skyline pictures taken from quite a distance, the type of pictures that a tourist might take.
Nonetheless, the fact that these pictures were discovered in al Qaeda caves is unsettling, and that's why we all have to be even more vigilant than ever before. Many of our power plants and nuclear facilities have been on the highest state of alert since September 11. We have state patrol officers, law enforcement, stationed at key facilities, including transportation networks and ferries.
So we cannot relax our guard.
BROWN: And that's what you have been doing, governor, I mean, you've been doing that for several months now. We've talked about this, you and I. When you get these new alerts, then, what do you do?
LOCKE: Well, we have to work with the federal authorities. And we've been in touch with the federal authorities. And these were just pictures. They're -- they did not find any action plans, any schedules, any instructions, anything that was actionable or concrete, other than these pictures, no diagrams, no blueprints or anything like that. So we know that facilities all across the United States, perhaps, were thought of as targets, but we have received no credible threats f attack or imminent attacks against any facility in our state of Washington.
But what can we do? It means that we have to be constantly on alert. We cannot relax our guard, and we have to make sure that citizens who see anything suspicious report it to the authorities. We have to take these things seriously. But again, we cannot, you know, shut all facilities down, whether it's the Space Needle or freeways or bridges, because of the possession and discovery of pictures.
We're going to have to work with the federal authorities and the intelligence community to find out what else has been discovered and whether or not there are any credible threats.
BROWN: And Ray Kelly in New York, Commissioner Kelly, an already complicated situation there is even more so now because of this world economic gathering that's going on in the city. Have you pretty much buttoned down the city?
COMMISSIONER RAY KELLY, NEW YORK CITY POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, we certainly have a lot of police officers deployed in the immediate area of the Waldorf-Astoria and where the conference is being held in other parts of the city. Traffic is certainly -- has been disrupted. But I think we're in reasonably good shape for demonstrations that might arise, and obviously we have 3,000 of the world's financial and business leaders in a very compact area.
So it's a cause for concern for us.
BROWN: And as Governor Locke knows well, when this conference took place in Seattle a couple of years back, it got very nasty in Seattle. I assume that your men and women who are out there are prepared for the worst of it, if that were to happen. Are you getting intelligence that it might?
KELLY: Well, we have sort of historical information from, you know, what's happened in the past. We sent people to Seattle, we also sent people to Genoa, to Quebec, to Washington, to Philadelphia. So we know what has happened in the past, and we're a big department, and I think we're a well-trained department. And as I say, we believe we're ready for any eventuality.
The number of demonstrators, we don't believe, will be anything like they were in Seattle. There, there were some 40,000 demonstrators. And they were very strong in number and kind of overwhelmed the law enforcement authorities. Seattle and other cities have been very helpful in providing us with information, so we think we're prepared for any eventuality, as I said.
BROWN: Commissioner, is the city at all hampered by the fact that you are just a couple of weeks into the job? There's been a change of the administration in the police department. Has that impacted planning? KELLY: No, no, not at all. The department goes on irrespective of who's at the top. But I've been in the department myself for 31 years prior to this, so I think the planning process is a good one. We talk on a regular basis, many, many times during the day today and for the next few days with the federal authorities, Secret Service, FBI, other federal officials.
Yes, I think it's been a well-planned event, but again, you can't protect everything that might happen.
BROWN: Let me go back to Olympia and Governor Locke for a minute. Governor, you and I talked on this program a week or two after the 11th, as I recall, and I think all of us, certainly governors who participated that night, were still somewhat in a state of shock.
I'm curious where the state of Washington is today with all of this. Have things calmed down, and so when you get a day or a 48-hour period like you've had over the last, it shakes everybody up.
LOCKE: Obviously, and it's just a constant reminder that we have to be vigilant. But we've actually been very proactive even before September 11. For instance, we have a unit of the Washington State National Guard that has been certified by the Defense Department, one of the first in the country, that's able to respond to any biological, chemical, or even nuclear type of incident.
They have all the suits and even analytical equipment that they can take with them and respond within hours, any part of the state of Washington, and with communication equipment that they can communicate with national people and people all across the world.
And so in fact they've been called out on several instances. They're going to go and help out at the Olympic Games. They were called out even during the World Series game because neighboring states did not have a unit as highly certified and as highly regarded as our unit, and they were providing support there.
We've also been planning...
BROWN: Do you have any...
LOCKE: Go ahead.
BROWN: I'm sorry, sir. Do you have any idea what this has cost the state so far?
LOCKE: Well, this is a full-time unit of the National Guard. It cost us a great deal of money. We have over 20 people who are doing this on a full-time basis. So all of our security efforts, with overtime, state patrol people who are monitoring ferries to make -- and providing security, it's costing us millions of dollars.
And we're a state like virtually every other state that's facing huge deficits and having to make severe reductions in services. And of course when you have these added responsibilities, it compounds the problem. That's why we need relief from the federal government, and all the governors are hoping that the president's budget for increased security at home will help us as we mount a response in terms of public health, analyzing threats of anthrax, and reporting any diseases, as well as law enforcement response.
We need help.
BROWN: Governor Locke, it's always good to see you. And Commissioner Kelly, you as well. I hope our conversations continue to be theoretical in the days ahead.
Thank you all for joining us tonight.
One more quick update here before we go to break, this one on Daniel Pearl, the "Wall Street Journal" reporter missing in Pakistan. We're afraid there's not much new or promising to report here. Today his kidnappers did send out another e-mail. In it, they said they will give him one more day to live, but will kill him if their demands are not met. They have been saying this now for a bit.
In Washington, today, Secretary of State Powell said the United States is working with the Pakistani government to find and free Daniel Pearl, but he ruled out, as you would imagine, making any deals with the kidnappers.
And this from Pearl's boss at "The Wall Street Journal," the managing editor there, Paul Steiger. Mr. Steiger sent an e-mail urging that Pearl be released and that the group release him with a detailed list of their grievances. "Only through Danny's safe release," he wrote, "can your group have the opportunity to tell your side of the story." That from Paul Steiger, the managing editor of "The Wall Street Journal," again, another deadline in play for Danny Pearl, and the clock keeps ticking.
Up next on NEWSNIGHT, the interview with bin Laden. The network that got it didn't think it was news. We think it is. In a moment you'll decide for yourselves.
This is NEWSNIGHT on Thursday from the state capitol in Minnesota.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: A bit earlier in the evening, a guest on CNN wondered why anyone would get a scoop like the one we're about to unfold and sit on it. We did too. This is, to us at least, a fascinating piece of videotape. We've seen it a couple of times now, an interview with Osama bin Laden recorded back in late October by the Arabic-language television network Al Jazeera.
Now, here's where this thing gets a little complicated. Al Jazeera didn't air it, for reasons of their own. They said they did not think it was newsworthy. We obtained it, CNN, independently of Al Jazeera, and parts of the one-hour interview CNN found very much newsworthy. Those portions we now present to you. It's reported by CNN's Wolf Blitzer. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Late October, in the only television interview with Osama bin Laden since the September 11 attacks, broadcast here for the first time, he makes clear the war of terror is not finished.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OSAMA BIN LADEN (through interpreter): The battle has moved to inside America. We will work to continue this battle, God permitting, until victory, or until we meet God.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: And he paints a grim picture for life under his terror threat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIN LADEN (through translator): I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people and the West in general into an unbearable hell and a choking life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: The interview with Osama bin Laden was conducted by the Kabul reporter for the Arabic-language Al Jazeera television network. It took place just before the U.S. and its allies began their final rout of the Taliban, before bin Laden and al Qaeda's leadership fled for their lives.
The reporter's first question, about bin Laden's role September 11.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: America claims it has convincing evidence of your collusion in the events in New York and Washington. What is your answer?
BIN LADEN (through translator): America has made many accusations against us and many other Muslims around the world. Its charge that we are carrying out acts of terrorism is unwarranted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: That may sound like a denial, but listen to what he says only moments later.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIN LADEN: If inciting people to do that is terrorism, and if killing those who kill our sons is terrorism, then let history be witness that we are terrorists.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: A slightly different translation was quoted by British Prime Minister Tony Blair in a speech to parliament last November.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Bin Laden said on October the 20th in an unbroadcast videotape that, and I quote, "If avenging the killing of our people is terrorism, let history be a witness that we are terrorists."
Mr. Speaker, they are terrorists, and history will judge them as such.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Blair's speech is evidence that copies of this videotape have circulated for some time in intelligence circles on both sides of the Atlantic, though until now it has never been seen in public. Intelligence sources tell CNN the U.S. government independently obtained the interview shortly after it was completed.
CNN obtained this copy of the tape from a nongovernmental source.
(on camera): Al Jazeera says it does not know precisely where the interview was taped. It has not aired the tape. Early on, the network even denied its existence. It says it was offered the chance to do the interview in person after the news organization submitted written questions to bin Laden, including some questions from CNN.
But CNN did not know about the taping until a "New York Times" story revealed the interview's existence.
In a December statement to CNN, Al Jazeera said it did not air the interview because it did not meet its standards and was not newsworthy.
In the interview, bin Laden was asked directly whether he's responsible for the anthrax attacks in the United States and elsewhere, but his answer is vague.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIN LADEN (through translator): These diseases are a punishment from God and a response to oppressed mothers' prayers in Lebanon, Iraq, Palestine, and everywhere.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: The reporter seems to have a professional rapport with bin Laden and even interrupts him to ask questions, as in this exchange.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIN LADEN (through translator): We kill the kings of the infidels, kings of the crusaders and civilian infidels in exchange for those of our children they killed. This is permissible in Islamic law, and logically.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: So what you're saying is, this is a type of reciprocal treatment. They kill our innocents, so we kill their innocents?
BIN LADEN (through translator): So we kill their innocents, and I say it's permissible in Islamic law and logic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: This tape is different from a series of taped addresses bin Laden delivered to Al Jazeera. During this one-hour interview, bin Laden ridicules White House requests to the U.S. news media to show discretion in broadcasting those addresses.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIN LADEN (through translator): They made hilarious claims. They said that Osama's messages have codes in them for the terrorists. It's as if we were living in the time of mail by carrier pigeon, when there were no phones, no travelers, no Internet, no regular mail, no express mail, and no electronic mail. I mean, these are very humorous things. They discount people's intellects.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Bin Laden himself discounts the possibility of the defeat of his forces. Remember, this was late October before the street celebrations that marked the fall of Kabul, well before the new head of Afghanistan's interim government was saluted at President Bush's State of the Union address.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIN LADEN (through translator): We believe that the defeat of America is possible with the help of God and is even easier for us, God permitting, than the defeat of the Soviet Union was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER (through translator): To back that up, bin Laden cites the 1993 U.S. experience in Somalia when 18 U.S. special operations forces were killed during a raid against a warlord faction in Mogadishu.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIN LADEN (through translator): Our brothers who were here in Afghanistan tested the Americans, and together with some of the Somali mujahideen, God granted them victory. America exited, dragging its tails in failure, defeat, and ruin.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BLITZER: These words, evidence of bin Laden's miscalculation. Throughout the tape, bin Laden appears confident of success, confident of victory. He apparently did not foresee that within days, he would be running for his life.
Wolf Blitzer, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Now, we need to make a couple of quick points about all of this. Al Jazeera is very unhappy that CNN has aired this interview, an interview that Al Jazeera got and shot but did not air. They have chosen not to explain why they didn't air it at this time. That is their option. They have exercised it.
They are angry enough that they have severed their relationship with CNN over this dispute. They claim that CNN stole the interview and has aired it illegally. Needless to say, CNN strongly disputes that.
A lot of this is inside baseball. What matters is the material itself and whether the material is newsworthy. We decided it was. Enough said.
Still to come tonight on NEWSNIGHT from Minnesota, does the right to health care begin before birth? We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: This one's stirring up a fuss even though at first blush you may wonder why.
The administration today proposed changing a few lines of a federal regulation. Pretty wonky stuff, perhaps. It could free up billions of dollars for low-income mothers-to-be. It centers, though, on redefining when childhood begins. If it begins at birth, as the current regulations say, those billions of dollars can't be used. But if -- but they can, rather, if the language is altered to say that childhood, that life, begins at conception.
So now you know where we're heading with this, and why there's all the fuss. Once again, CNN's Kelly Wallace.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALLACE (voice-over): It doesn't sound controversial at first, using extra federal dollars to provide prenatal care to low-income pregnant women.
TOMMY THOMPSON, SECRETARY OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: This is going to help poor mothers be able to take care of their unborn children and get the care that they absolutely vitally need.
WALLACE: But here's where the debate begins. Tommy Thompson, the health and human services secretary, wants to change a federal regulation governing the state program that provides health care coverage to children.
In a statement, his department said it wants to, quote, "clarify the definition of `child,'" allowing states to provide health care to children, quote, "from conception to age 19." Currently, coverage starts after birth.
But abortion rights supporters argue this is a thinly veiled attempt to undermine a woman's right to choose.
KATE MICHELMAN, NATIONAL ABORTION RIGHTS ACTION LEAGUE: This policy reveals this administration's real interest in having government make abortions illegal, and this is an interim step. Granting personhood to embryos will help accomplish that goal.
WALLACE: Thompson fired back, saying this is not about abortion rights, but health care.
THOMPSON: This is not an argument for the pro-choice or pro-life movement. This is not an ideological argument. This is to take care of poor mothers.
WALLACE: Bush advisers say there was no political calculation here, just a way to use some of the more than $3 billion that was available but not spent last year on children's health care. The move, though, is delighting abortion rights opponents, who call it a way to value and protect human life.
LAURA ECHEVARRIA, NATIONAL RIGHT TO LIFE COMMITTEE: From our viewpoint, that we need to do everything we can to make sure that children are protected.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WALLACE: After a 60-day public comment period, the new policy will take effect. States could choose to participate, or they could opt out. And federal officials say there is a precedent here. They say up until 1981, developing fetuses were eligible under Medicaid.
And Aaron, one other development to tell you about out of -- about a totally unrelated story, this one connected to the large energy giant, the collapse of Enron. CNN has learned that President Bush tomorrow will unveil recommendations on ways to protect employees and their 401(K)s and their pension plans.
Senior officials would not reveal specifics, but say the president is addressing current problems under the current law, problems such as how companies can force employees to hold their stock in their 401(K)s for extended periods of time -- Aaron.
BROWN: That, in essence, was -- there are a lot of problems at Enron, but where the 401(K)s was concerned, that was it. Enron executives who owned stock, who got stock options, that sort of thing, were free to sell them if they so chose, but the employees -- and this is a very common regulation, and I'm not sure if employers have a choice or not -- the employees couldn't sell them. They were locked in. WALLACE: Correct, exactly. That is one problem. Another is the so-called blackout periods, periods of time when employees are not able to move their stocks around when it comes to their 401(K)s. And another problem, we are told, the recommendation's likely to address is making sure employees get advance knowledge and are -- get the information about when those blackout periods take effect.
And also, looking into whether employees are getting enough investment advice and information when it comes to managing their 401(K)s. So we'll hear from Mr. Bush tomorrow -- Aaron.
BROWN: Kelly, thank you very much. Kelly Wallace, worked on the story at the White House tonight.
BROWN: We can talk a little bit about that and more with former academic from down the road in Northfield, Minnesota, Carleton College, not far from here, he taught political science for 20 years at Carleton, which is a terrific school. He was known there as Professor Wellstone, today it's Senator, and we're glad to have him with us tonight.
A Democrat, liberal, I don't think you'd argue with that, one of the great...
SEN. PAUL WELLSTONE (D), MINNESOTA: I'm not liberal.
BROWN: One of the great liberals of the U.S. Senate these days. Nice to see you.
WELLSTONE: Thank you for having me and welcome to Minnesota, welcome back home.
BROWN: Thank you.
WELLSTONE: I heard you refer to Tom Wolfe's...
BROWN: Yes, "You Can Come Home."
WELLSTONE: "You Can Come Home," and his great book, "Look Homeward Angel," I was a student at the University of North Carolina, and all of us had to read that book.
BROWN: Is that right?
A couple of -- just a quick one here. Has political science, as you taught it, differed a lot from political life as you've led it?
WELLSTONE: Yes, in a lot of ways. But, I mean, in some ways not. I mean, the -- to me, I think there have been pleasant and unpleasant surprises. You know, after 11 years in the Senate, the pleasant surprises, there's a lot of people I don't -- who don't see the world the same way I do, but I enjoy them. I think they believe in public service, and I really have -- really, it's been a real honor, and love to be a senator.
The unpleasant surprise, which I did teach about, but it's worse than I thought, is I think the pattern of power is more distorted. Some people march on Washington every day. I think too few people have way too much power and access and say, and too many people don't. And what's at stake is this wonderful, noble experiment we've had in self-rule.
I mean, this goes right to the heart of what representative democracy should be about. That, I think, is the real issue.
BROWN: Often people are cynical where politicians are concerned. Politicians make promises, they don't get kept. You said after your first election you would not seek more than two terms. You're running for a third term.
WELLSTONE: Yes.
BROWN: And you've broken a promise.
WELLSTONE: Yes. Well, I said after I won that I didn't think I wanted to. And I always thought I wanted to come back, because -- with now three grandchildren, I thought I'd spend more time with family and teach, but you know everything in the world changed. And everything changed, and I just say to people in Minnesota, if you think you I am good senator and good for our state, then you'll vote me in. And if you don't, you won't.
BROWN: Was it a mistake to say it in the first place?
WELLSTONE: Was it a mistake?
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: I don't mean now as you look back on it. I mean literally, should politicians be looking that way, saying things like that, and then four, six, eight, 10, 12 years down the road, pulling back? Because that's a serious problem for me.
WELLSTONE: Yes. Well, I think, I think, you know, I think out loud, and I sort of say what I believe. And I thought then, Look, 12 years would be enough. I really -- our kids grew up fast. We had them when we were very young. I don't want to make the same mistake of not seeing grandchildren.
So I meant it then, so in that sense it wasn't a mistake. And I mean what I'm saying right now, and I think just as I think about the compelling issues that are staring people in Minnesota in the face and people in the country in the face.
And part of it is, of course, our security in the war on terrorism, but part of it is another definition, Aaron, of national security, which is the security of local communities, where there are jobs, where people can support their families, where there's health security, where there's affordable child care, where there's affordable housing, and where there's a good education for every child.
So for me, those are the issues that I think are real important to our country. That's my work as a senator. And I think people in Minnesota believe that.
BROWN: Do you think September 11 changed the nature of political discourse in the country? You had a particularly nasty campaign in the end game, at least, as I remember it...
WELLSTONE: Yes, in '96.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: ... the first time around. Wasn't very pleasant. Do you think that era of politics has passed, or do you expect it again?
WELLSTONE: I think to a certain extent it's changed, and who knows, maybe I'm naive about it. I've been through two campaigns, and the last weeks were pretty ugly. And on the other hand, people in Minnesota ended up probably electing me by more of a vote, especially the second time, than anyone expected for staying away from some of that kind of a hack attack ad.
I think the sense that people have in the country that we need each other as never before, this sense of community, which I think is very good, this patriotism -- I'm a first-generation American, I love the patriotism. I think it's going to make it harder to have these sort of slime attack ads. I hope so.
BROWN: What's the one thing that surprised you most about being a United States senator, which a lot of people consider one of the great jobs in the land?
WELLSTONE: Well, good question. When I say good question, it means I'm not quite sure (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
BROWN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) at that point, really.
WELLSTONE: Yes, yes. I think what has surprised me the most is, as much as I love issues and I love to write and speak, I can't believe the number of different issues that you need to really be knowledgeable about. And I get sometimes frustrated, I feel like Paul, you need 10 years to understand this one issue, and there's so many.
BROWN: We look forward to watching the campaign, meeting your opponent and talking about the issues a little more in detail. Thanks for coming in.
WELLSTONE: Thanks for coming to a beautiful, wonderful state.
BROWN: It's terrific to be home. Thank you, sir.
Paul Wellstone with us, the senator.
NEWSNIGHT continues with the changing face of the state of Minnesota, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: When we left this state more than 30 years ago, Minnesota belonged to the Scandinavians, mostly, the Swedes, the Norwegians, the Larsens and the Johnsons. We came back the other day to find a very different Minnesota. Well, the Johnsons are still here, but so are the Diems (ph) from Southeast Asia, and there is also a large and growing Somali community here, thousands of Somalis, and like your grandparents and mine, they've all come here for the same reason, to find freedom and to find work.
The jobs they start with aren't much. They drive a cab when the live in the city, they work in the turkey processing plants if they live in the rural areas. But they've made the state home. They are new Americans in a difficult time.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): These men -- and by Somali custom, only men gather at this cafe -- are central to a new reality in the state of Minnesota.
ABDIRIZAK BIHI, SOMALI COMMUNITY LEADER: Everybody wonders, why Minnesota? Minnesota is the coldest place in America, and they came from the most warmest country in the world. They chose Minnesota because of the jobs available to those people who are (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BROWN: Those jobs, and what Somali community leaders say are the warm hearts of the people here, have transformed this section of Minneapolis into a slice of East Africa.
BIHI: It's growing here because this is the only state or place in the United States of America where we have an intact community. We have about nine mosques (UNINTELLIGIBLE) here in Minneapolis alone. We have schools where teachers are from Somalia. We have mothers who work with the children. We have (UNINTELLIGIBLE) workers. We are very much assimilated with the local society.
BROWN: There are at least 10,000 Somalis here, but the real number may be closer to 75,000, most working at jobs that pay very little, but far more than they would have ever earned in their war- torn nation.
Now they make their way into a tiny office to send money back home to their families, a traditional Arab method called hadwallah (ph), now under tight government regulation.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: But now we have the good confidence we are doing the right way.
BROWN: Life for Minnesota Somalis has been hard in these days after September 11. Men like Habib Farah say they have seen hatred here for the very first time.
HABIB FARAH, SCHOOL BUS DRIVER: You know, a bunch of Somalian women get harassed from Americans, you know, bunch of them get beat up. BROWN: No second thoughts, however, about being here.
FARAH: We Americans, you know, we chose to be here in the United States, you know. And I don't think, you know, there's nothing to get -- they can get mad at, you know. You know, I think everything going to go back to normal.
BROWN: So normal, most have gone to the movies and seen "Black Hawk Down," the popular film based on the murderous events in Somalia in 1993. And here is what they think.
BIHI: It was action movie. It was entertaining. But it had no sense at all, it was just killing, killing, killing, just the machines firing, that's all.
BROWN: America went to Somalia, they say, to rescue it. That mission may have failed, but ironically, because of that failure, these newest immigrants have an abiding love for Minnesota, their adopted home.
FARAH: They know we are good people. We are hard-working people. We are taxpayers. We are not violent people. And we -- they know what -- who we are and where we come from. So, you know, whatever happen, we're going to be all right. We're going to be fine.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: The changing face of Minnesota.
Little bit later, a mystery guest, I am told.
Coming up next, is it the last baseball game?
This is NEWSNIGHT from the Twin Cities.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: I was asked by an interviewer today if I remembered my first Minnesota Twins game when I was a kid, and the answer is, absolutely, I can still do most of the starting lineup. I think, though I'm not positive, a train is actually coming through the state capitol now.
Anyway, as you probably know, it's very likely major league baseball's going to kill off the Twins unless somebody comes in and saves them, which is a very expensive proposition. So here's more on the baseball story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): They're already hanging the banners, and the grounds crew is even rearranging the dirt on the artificial turf of the Metrodome. That in itself is a small miracle.
RON GARDENSHIRE, MANAGER, MINNESOTA TWINS: When the season ended, we thought, you know, this is pretty good, we're rolling along now, we're looking forward to this coming season. And our guys that we think we're going to be able to compete, and then all of a sudden contraction issue comes flying out there.
BROWN: Fly it did, from no less than the commissioner of major league baseball, Bud Selig. During the winter, he said two teams would have to go. And while he didn't name them, no one doubted that one was the Montreal Expos and the other was the Minnesota Twins, the first contraction ever in baseball.
GARDENSHIRE: I can't, I can't possibly imagine it not being here in the Twin Cities. As Tom Kelly says, St. Paul-Minneapolis, always St. Paul first. I can't possibly imagine they'd ever get rid of baseball here. You just have to -- you have to be here, you have to live here, you have to know the areas, the Dakotas and Iowa, the people that come up here to watch Twins baseball. You just have to go out and talk to them to understand how deeply rooted Minnesota Twins baseball is here.
BROWN: Deeply rooted, to be sure. But although their domed stadium is only 20 years old, the artificial turf there is threadbare. The roof looks like it's sagging. The team is owned by a banker who wants out, and the Twins are in desperate need of a new stadium. Tough to do in a down economy.
SID HARTMAN, COLUMNIST, "MINNEAPOLIS STAR-TRIBUNE": Until we get a stadium, they're gone, they're gone, there's no doubt about it. If they don't get a stadium in this present legislature -- legislative session, they're out of here. They'll definitely contract them.
BROWN: Sid Hartman has been writing about sports in Minnesota for as long as anyone here can remember, more than five decades' worth of columns and stories. He is a good friend of the owner of the Minnesota Twins, Carl Pohlad.
HARTMAN: He's tough with a buck, there's no doubt about it. And he sits in those meetings, and I can just see how he feels. He's a banker. They have the meeting in Chicago. They get a report, $519 million in losses in major league baseball last year. And here these guys leave the meeting, and within two weeks they're signing guys first, for fantastic contracts again. It makes no sense. I mean, these owners are their own worst enemies.
BROWN: In the case of the Twins, however, there has been almost zero payroll inflation. Last year, when the team spent more than half the season in first place, its entire payroll was $26 million, just a bit more than some teams pay to one or two stars, masking it all the more difficult when you have to run the business side of the team.
TERRY RYAN, GENERAL MANAGER, MINNESOTA TWINS: We have a lot of problems in Minnesota, whether it be the stadium or revenue or our payroll, anything that surrounds us, the labor situation. We have a lot of things that are of concern to us.
BROWN: Fans here have rallied in support of the Twins. But life and sports these days are not that clear cut. The Twins have a new manager who is thrilled to just walk onto the field. GARDENSHIRE: I can do this all day long.
BROWN: But the general manager has read up on his Yogi Berra. It ain't over till it's over.
RYAN: Until we play and that first pitch is thrown on April 1 in Kansas City, I don't think any of us are overconfident to the point where we say it's behind us. And I don't believe anybody in major league baseball has said that it's a dead issue. It's not a dead issue. And we know that, and we'll continue to operate.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: I had a bad feeling about this baseball story. We planned, it seems to me, for just about everything but a fire drill in the middle of the program.
And now I've got to deal with a mystery guest. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: OK, finally from us tonight, a segment to upset the sensibilities of all you stoic Minnesotans, the mystery guest. Before we do this, I just want to say tonight I'm really tired. The staff knows I do not like excuses, but I've been running around the country for a month now doing programs, running around this town for the last tow days. And I am not necessarily at the top of my game tonight, OK?
All right, here's the mystery guest. The rules are, the staff picks a guest, they laugh all day about it because I don't know who it is, then when I run out of words on this page, the name is revealed to me, and the guest and I have an intelligent conversation, or at least that's what we hope to do. That's the drill. I'm out of words on the page. So please roll the prompter up, and here we go.
I've mentioned at least once here on NEWSNIGHT that I went to Hopkins High School just outside of Minneapolis, and I didn't do especially well there, and I didn't exactly get too far with the cheerleader types.
OK, the staff sort of lied. It's not a mystery guest at all, it's the entire Hopkins cheerleading squad. Oh, my goodness.
HOPKINS HIGH SCHOOL CHEERLEADING SQUAD: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
BROWN: Oh, my goodness.
HOPKINS HIGH SCHOOL CHEERLEADING SQUAD: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
BROWN: OK, who's got the microphone? Who's Heather? Who's Heather?
HEATHER OLSON: I am.
BROWN: Hi, Heather, how you doing? What's your last name? OLSON: Good. Olson.
BROWN: Of course it's Olson. What else would it be? We're in Minnesota.
OLSON: Exactly.
BROWN: What year are you in school?
OLSON: I'm a junior.
BROWN: You're a junior. And how many kids are -- how many young -- they're all -- are they all women? I guess they are, all young girls.
OLSON: Yes, yes.
BROWN: No boys?
OLSON: No boys. We're not that (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BROWN: When I was in high school there was a guy named Dan Bentlock who was a cheerleader.
OLSON: Yes, yes.
BROWN: No boys, though.
OLSON: No, (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?
BROWN: And is it competitive to get on the cheerleading squad?
OLSON: A little bit, yes.
BROWN: What do you mean, a little bit?
OLSON: It's kind of -- you can get in there pretty easy.
BROWN: Yes. And how is the football team this year? Because when I went to school, it was horrible.
OLSON: Yes. They did all right. Our basketball team is really good.
BROWN: And someone told me today you have a great basketball player, don't you?
OLSON: Yes, yes, we do.
BROWN: And what's his name?
OLSON: Chris Humphries.
BROWN: Chris Humphries.
OLSON: Yes. BROWN: And when I went to school, girls didn't play sports at all. I bet girls play a lot of sports now.
OLSON: Oh, yes, definitely.
BROWN: But there's no girl cheerleaders. You guys were great sports. This is as close as I ever got to actually meeting a Hopkins cheerleader. Thanks for coming in.
OLSON: Well, we're on it.
BROWN: Bless you guys. Thanks a lot. Be safe up there tonight.
OLSON: Yes, thank you.
BROWN: Thank you.
And that's the greatest gag I've ever seen. Our thanks to everyone here who helped. And the staff and the legislature, the governor's office, everybody here. We're off for a couple days. We'll see you on Tuesday.
Good night from NEWSNIGHT from the Twin Cities.
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