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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

House Nears Vote on Campaign Finance Reform

Aired February 13, 2002 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: And good evening again, everyone.

This is not an apology. I want to be clear about that. As I've been told so many times that the left-wing, anti-American, anti-gun, pinko media, never apologizes. So it's not that. It's a clarification. Last night at the end of a segment on the controversy over the judging in the Olympic figure skating, where the Russians won, the Canadians lost, but in fact the Canadians were better -- but they always get the short end so maybe they should stop being so nice -- that story. I said, the way that I sometimes do, it's only sport. Well, I have been paying for that all day.

Every Canadian kind enough to watch this program seems to have sent an e-mail. And these are not happy notes. So let's take a moment and see if I can dig myself out of this one: It is only sport. And one of reasons these things happen, these judging controversies is because lots of people forget that. Sport becoming something it isn't. At its most extreme the Soviets and the East Germans and the Cubans, and others, pump their athletes up with so many drugs they turn women into men, and men into machines, all in an effort to prove that whoever ran the fastest or jumped the farthest had the better political system.

These clowns couldn't build a car or a radio or tell the truth, but they can put the shot, and so they were better. I love the Olympics, I love sports. And if the Canadian skaters were better, and apparently most believe they were, than it's a shame they didn't get their just reward. But I believe that many of us, and I do mean us here, take this stuff way too seriously. And that's all I was trying to say. But again, this is not an apology, just a clarification. OK?

On to the news of the day, we begin with the whip. And a dramatic moment in an otherwise routine court appearance for the American-Taliban John Walker Lindh. Deborah Feyerick covering the story for us, Deborah, a headline please.

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, it happened in a split second. One father, his hand extended approaching another father to say he was sorry for that man's son's death, to say his own son was innocent -- Aaron.

BROWN: Deborah, it was a moment.

BROWN: Up next, the latest on the case of the missing journalist, Daniel Pearl. Ben Wedeman is in Karachi, Pakistan again tonight, Ben, a headline, please.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Aaron, leads leading nowhere. Desperate for clues, Pakistani police not seem to think their prime suspect isn't so prime after all.

BROWN: And back with you shortly.

To Washington next, at long last the battle over campaign finance is coming to a head. Kate Snow is on Capitol Hill tonight. Kate, a quick headline from you, please.

KATE SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, they are going on 12 hours of debate right now. So far it looks like those in favor of campaign finance reform are winning. They have held on to their support, but it's not over yet. They are going to go at least a few more hours -- Aaron.

BROWN: Kate, thank you. We will be back with you again and again, I suspect. Now to the White House, an important announcement from the Bush administration expected tomorrow. Kelly Wallace is there, Kelly, a headline from you, please.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, tomorrow President Bush will unveil his alternative to the Kyoto Treaty to fight global warming, an agreement 178 nations accepted, but Mr. Bush rejected. Details of the president's plan, though, are embargoed until 10:30 p.m. So we have to wait to tell you all about it -- Aaron..

BROWN: I'll stay here for that, Kelly. Thank you.

Back will all of you, shortly. Quite a busy night, tonight.

We will spend some time looking at a plan to set up a massive surveillance system across the nation's capital. But do we really want X-ray vision watching every move we make? Does the threat warrant the intrusion? And a great story tonight about one Olympian in a very personal struggle. He's very lucky to have made it to Salt Lake City. And we are not talking about how well he snowboards, this is a young man who has someone else's liver in his body.

And from Afghanistan tonight, the women and their burkas, they are free. They can wear what they want so why do at the want to hide? All of that and more. We begin with John Walker Lindh and the choices he made. They were highlighted at his arraignment today, and underscored by an encounter between his family and the family of Michael Spann. They have become known, fairly or not, as the embodiment of two sides of this story, of different values and different choices.

Here again is CNN's Deborah Feyerick.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FEYERICK (voice-over): The encounter took place outside the a federal courtroom immediately after the arraignment. The Spann family waiting for an elevator when John Walker Lindh's father came up to them, trying to shake Johnny Spann's hand, I'm sorry about your son. My son had nothing to do with it, I'm sure you understand.

Johnny Spann refused the handshake. Turning his back, as a court official tried to block Lindh from speaking to the family. Prosecutors have not charged Walker Lindh with Spann's death. But Spann's father blamed all Taliban fighters for what has happened since since September 11.

JOHNNY SPANN, FATHER OF KILLED CIA AGENT: All of this is because group of terrorist -- a group of terrorist thugs, and their leaders and their followers and their supporters.

FEYERICK: Mike Spann and John Walker Lindh came face-to-face more than two months ago, a prison outside Mazar-e Sharif, Afghanistan. The CIA agent questioning the jihad fighter. Hours later Spann was dead, killed during a prison uprising. Two American families, two different pains. Frank Lindh flashing his son a bright smile as the 21-year-old was lead back to jail. The Spanns, still grieving.

GAIL SPANN, MOTHER OF KILLED CIA AGENT: Mike was a hero not because of the way he died, but because of the way he lived. And I would also like to say that John Walker is a traitor.

FEYERICK: Walker Lindh pleaded not guilty to terrorism and conspiracy charges. Defense lawyers asked for a November trial, saying they needed to travel Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen. Prosecutors said it was OK with them. But the judge said no, suggesting the trial begin late summer. Both sides will meet Friday afternoon to pick the date.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

And the reason the widow Shannon Spann came to court, she told CNN Mike's life was about taking responsibility. Explaining it will be interesting to see if Walker Lindh takes responsibility for what he has done. Attorneys will return to court Friday afternoon to set a trial date, likely to be sometime in late August or early September -- Aaron.

BROWN: Deborah, is the defense side -- the lawyers of the defense side talking at all these days to us?

FEYERICK: They are. They give us some information, but again the chief defense attorney did not show up today. He had a very bad case of the flu. Though he wanted to be there for the arraignment, he just didn't make us. They are not really showing us what their case is likely to be. But they are going to try very, very hard to toss out what is John Walker Lindh's confession which he made. They say it should not be allowed into the trial -- but -- well, the judge has the final say, obviously.

BROWN: Thank you, Deborah Feyerick, who has been covering the John Walker Lindh case today. In other news, Pakistan's President was at the White House today. General Pervez Musharraf reiterated his country's support for the war on terror. President Bush praising him again for his efforts. He promised a stronger relationship between the United States and Pakistan. The President also pledged to help settle Pakistan's dispute with India over Kashmir. He promised more aid, more money but stopped short of freeing up 28 F-16s that had been sold to Pakistan, but withheld when Pakistan tested nuclear weapons.

And about the fate of Danny Pearl, General Musharraf said he is reasonably sure that Danny Pearl is still alive. Not everyone shares the optimism tonight. Growing frustration in Karachi, authorities now holding a number of people they believe took part in the kidnapping. But they got a key figure, but not, they now believe, the key figure. And this is an important distinction in whether Danny Pearl will ever be freed.

We go back to CNN's Ben Wedeman who has been working the story in Karachi.

WEDEMAN: Yes, Aaron, frustration is indeed the best way to describe the situation here.

The Pakistani police have had nearly 48 hours to interrogate Sheikh Omar Saeed, the man they had been saying was the prime suspect in the kidnapping of "Wall Street Journal" reporter, Daniel Pearl. Despite this intense grilling, Saeed has yet to offer any concrete information leading to the release of the American journalist. Now one senior Karachi police officer has described Saeed as a hard nut to crack, and it appears he hasn't cracked yet according to a report in a local newspaper.

Saeed told his interrogators, he had spent five years being tortured in Indian jails. And those Pakistani interrogators were not about to break him. Now you'll recall that shortly after his detention on Tuesday in the course of preliminary interrogations, Saeed told Pakistani police, that Pearl is in Karachi and he is alive. That seems to be all they really have managed to get out of him.

Now that Police here in Karachi are backtracking, not only downplaying their initial -- earlier optimism about an imminent release of Pearl, they are also downplaying Saeed's role in the kidnapping. One senior provincial official, in Karachi, claiming that Saeed -- and this is completely contrary to what we have been told for about a week by the investigators here -- he said that Saeed is just one of several prime suspects in this case.

Meanwhile, an at the U.S. State Department has told CNN that they believe that Saeed is not the level one person, as they put it, in the kidnapping. Now, meanwhile overnight there were more raids in and around Karachi, connected with this kidnapping, but those raids, like the interrogations don't seem to have yielded much -- Aaron.

BROWN: OK, if not the guy they got, who is it they are looking for? Do they know who is responsible? WEDEMAN: If they know, Aaron, they are not saying. We have had subtle indications for quite some time that there are some people believe that there might even be rogue elements from Pakistan's intelligence agency involved here. That this is a message being sent by those rogue elements and others to President Musharraf that he should not go ahead with his crackdown on hard-line Islamic militants. That's one theory going around.

Really, at this point, though, there is not much more to go on. Saeed was the man that the police had been putting a lot of hope and faith into to come up with that critical information that might lead them to the hideout where Pearl has -- is being held. But at this point they are a bit stumped, to be quite frank. Saeed hasn't come up with that information, and they are desperately looking for other clues but nothing yet -- Aaron.

BROWN: Thank you, Ben Wedeman in Karachi. It's interesting that I asked President Musharraf yesterday exactly that question, whether it was possible his own intelligence service was in some way involved. And he said impossible.

In other news now, opening statements tomorrow at the Hague in the war crimes trial of Slobodan Milosevic, the former president of Yugoslavia. And they coming after a moment of high drama today. Milosevic who is representing himself, challenged, as expected, the legality of the tribunal. He questioned its basis in international, disputing his arrest in the first place. Milosevic also laid into the media, accusing the media and the tribunal of what he said was playing a role in a parallel lynching process. The judge said, in effect, it's all irrelevant. Time to move on and so they shall, tomorrow.

Shifting gears now to campaign finance reform and the votes. And there are many of them going on in the House tonight. There's an editorial cartoon on the issue today, one of many, it shows campaign reform as the Olympic skier about to run the giant slolum, only instead of gates he has to run a gauntlet of law managers with chainsaws and hatchets. As sports metaphors go, this one misses quite a bit. Ask anyone involved, and they'll tell you the fight for a ban on soft money has been uphill, it feels more like a marathon and unlike the Olympics, it is no game. Again, here is CNN's Kate Snow.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW (voice-over): It's the one issue that effects every single lawmaker, changing the rules for raising campaign cash.

REP. RICHARD MEAL (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Mr. Speaker, I would suggest you now, take down the for sale sign that hangs over this wonderful old House.

REP. TOM DELAY (R-TX), MAJORITY WHIP: This is Swiss cheese it's full of holes, it doesn't do what the authors want, it's like a fine wine that doesn't get better with age, it just rots.

SNOW: The bill would prohibit some political issue ads in the weeks before an election. It would stop soft money donations to national political parties. Money that now flows freely from corporations, unions, wealthy Americans and interest groups -- nearly 500 million in the 2000 election. But it would allow soft money donations to state and local parties only for activities like get out the vote drives.

REP. JACK KINGSTON (R), GEORGIA: This is not a ban on soft money, this is a make-believe bill.

SNOW: Supporters of the reform said their opponents were grasping at straws, doing all they could defeat the bill, including offering a series of amendments. One to allow soft money TV ads in the final weeks before an election, but only ads about gun rights, another, only ads about senior senior citizens, another only ads about minorities and civil rights.

REP. JOHN LEWIS (D), GEORGIA: This amendment is another poison pill. It is a phony issue, it has nothing -- but nothing to do with free speech or with civil rights. I know something about civil rights.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: Poison pill because if the House goes ahead and changes, and makes amendments to this bill and therefore it doesn't match what the Senate did last summer on campaign finance reform, well then they may not be able to send it to the president, because the two sides have to match by law. One of the other poison pills, Aaron, that the supporters of campaign finance reform are most worried about is an amendment that would change the effective date of all these reforms. Right now the bill says it goes into effect on November 6, the day after the next general election. Opponents of this bill are going to try to pass something that would say it goes into effect tomorrow on Valentine's Day -- Aaron.

BROWN: And the reason that would be considered a poison pill is?

SNOW: Because it changes the bill from what it would be in the Senate, or in this case actually, it makes a change that a lot of members don't like. Because they are halfway through an election year and a lot of members would rather not have to deal with giving back soft money that they have already accumulated, and things like that. So they are afraid, bottom line that it might not get through the Senate in this version, you know, being effective on February 14, might not get through the Senate.

BROWN: And, Kate, let me ask you one more question about that -- that possibility that they get two different bills. They go to conference if that happens and that happens all the time. Why does that seemingly end the process?

SNOW: Well, it gets into the nitty-gritty here. But Senator McCain who has been the key proponent of this campaign finance reform on the Senate side, has called this a black hole for legislation. They passed this bill once before in 1994, two different versions passed it never made it out of conference committee. They passed this bill in the House in 1998 and again in 1999 and then it never went anywhere in the Senate. So there is a long history here of not being able to get the two sides to work together. And he fears that if they -- if they pass a different version out of the House it will give the excuse to those who are opposed to the bill, mostly Republicans, it will give them an excuse to not go any further with it.

BROWN: Thank you, Kate Snow. Back to the chamber for you, now. Thank you, very much.

The need for security and privacy colliding again in the nation's capital. This is NEWSNIGHT, back in New York on a Wednesday.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We come upon, yet again, another choice between liberty and security, those two things, trying to balance them out. We have been down this road often in the days since September 11. How do you balance legitimate security needs with a fundamental American desire to be left alone.

There is a plan in Washington, D.C. tonight for a very sophisticated hi-tech surveillance system. Cameras, all over the town, keeping watch on bad guys and of course on good guys, too. A lot of police agencies like this idea, though not all do. And civil liberty groups are quite concerned. Here is CNN's Jeanne Meserve.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Outside Washington's Union Station suspicious activity is picked up by a surveillance camera. Monitored by law enforcement at the city's joint operations command center.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, why don't we have one the capitol officers roll a car by there, all right.

MESERVE: When the car arrives the man is gone. All appears to be fine. The District of Columbia has spent $7 million on this state of the art facility. With the ability to monitor 88 cameras simultaneously.

TERRENCE GAINER, EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT CHIEF D.C. POLICE: It really gives us the eyes that we need to see what is going on in the city.

MESERVE: The system was designed to monitor events like this: Protests against the World Bank. The World Bank bristles with camera, as do many other buildings in this city. They belong to federal law enforcement, private business, the transit and school systems and the new center can link up with several hundred of them. That makes civil libertarians fear that this country could become like Britain, where it's estimated that the average citizen is caught on surveillance cameras 300 times a day.

JEFFREY ROSEN, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL: It increases the danger of discriminatory and voyaeristic surveillance. In Britain they found that the cameras tend to focus on younger women and also on minorities. So far from being an alternative to racial profiling the cameras can actually exacerbate that danger.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think we can go overboard. And I think it's fair to people to question us.

MESERVE: Although, Britain's system did capture the famous of young Jamie Bolger being abducted. Rosen says it has not done what was intended.

ROSEN: In the city of London where the cameras were implemented to catch terrorists after a bunch of attacks in 1993, they actually hadn't caught a single terrorist on the basis of the cameras.

MESERVE: But despite concerns and questions, surveillance systems are already in place in cities like Tampa and Baltimore. The threat of terrorism seems to guarantee that in these places we are seeing the future, and you can almost bet it is seeing it.

Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Well, it goes without saying. These stories are more prominent because of what happened on September 11. And one of the cameras we have keeps an eye on Ground Zero. And we want to take a quick look at that tonight. There does seem to be an unusual amount of activity there. The kind of activity that sometimes, though not always, suggests to us that they are verge of recovering a body or some bodies. They recovered six over the last weekend. We will keep an eye on that as the night goes on. That is Ground Zero.

Troubling story tonight, just ahead of Valentine's Day, the FBI has alerted 350 law enforcement agencies in the southwest and in Salt Lake City, ready for this? To be on the look out for Valentine teddy bears that might be filled with explosives. The alert comes after a suspicious purchase was made at a California Wal-mart store last month. A man bought nine teddy bears and cans of propane, small enough to fit inside the bears. The man also bought 12 packets of bee bees.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT: triumph over adversity at the Olympics, real adversity, not just a tough run down the mountain. It's a terrific story, it's coming up next on NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Yes, I want to be really serious for a moment, and thank personally all 33 of you who have remained loyal to the program this week, despite that other alternative going on. I actually thought there were only 32 of you, but the e-mails proved me wrong.

And by the way, we are going to keep the running the regulations of what we can air of the Olympics, until one viewer says a note saying how clever we are for doing that. I think we got a ways to go. Anyway, for those of you who would like to make small talk at cocktail parties this weekend, this is a public service. Roll the tape, please: Fact number one, this is curling. Do something, please. Fact number two, this is curling from yesterday since you can read over my shoulder, NBC's exclusive rights -- there we go -- do not allow us to show any Olympic footage from today. And fact number three, there's only 27 American actually understand curling. But this sport is huge in Canada, and I need to make peace with them. So let that baby roll for a minute.

OK, now on to the next thing, please. This is a championship event we can show you, and actually kind of understand, the Westminster Dog Show, where young Surrey Spice Girl proved she was the best mutt you'll never own, by winning the best in show title. The perfectly coifed, and isn't she adorable. miniature poodle. The first miniature poodle to win the title since 1959.

This is one of those real staples in sport reporting. Ailing athlete makes good. in the last Summer Olympic Games NBC ran so many profiles of athletes who'd over come one thing or another. We thought Blue Cross had rights to the Olympic Games. But there is a reason for these tales. It is one thing to be the very best at something. It is another to be the very best, while overcoming an illness or an accident or a lifetime of bad times. And that is a fair way to describe the young man who is at the center of this story. He's overcome one thing or another since, almost literally since the day he was born. And he will compete in these Olympic Games with someone else's liver, a transplant.

The story from medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: This is what Chris Klug looks like today, but this is what he looked like a year and a half ago, on his way into surgery for a liver transplant.

CHRIS KLUG, OLYMPIAN: It has crossed my mind many times that this might not work out, that I could die on the transplant waiting list, and this is how it's going to end. For nine years, Chris battled a rare disease called PSC, which was slowly ravaging his liver.

COHEN: He cried the day football great Walter Payton died from the same disease, and feared he would be next.

(on camera): There's an old saying, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Does that apply to you?

KLUG: I believe in it, I really do. And that's sort of the story of my life, you know.

COHEN (voice-over): His life began 29 years ago, as a preemie in a neonatal intensive care unit. Then at age 10 he almost died from severe asthma. When he was 20, doctors diagnosed his liver disease. And then in July 2000, after waiting nearly two years for his new liver, Chris finally got the call he'd been waiting for. He flew from his home in Aspen, Colorado to the hospital in Denver, his parents watched as he was wheeled into surgery.

KATHY KLUG, OLYMPIAN'S MOTHER: And your standing there, and he looks right at me and he says, mom, am I ready for this? And you go, in 30 seconds you have to answer that question. You think of all the things have gotten him ready. And you have to answer with confidence and assuredly, and you are the mom. And you go. Of course, you are ready for this. Your whole life has gotten you ready for this.

COHEN: The surgery was a success. No rejection problems, no complications.

C. KLUG: And I remember waking up and going, I rule! It was so funny. I had some pretty good drugs in me. I was saying some wacky things.

COHEN: Much to his doctor's amazement, Chris was snowboarding less than two months after surgery and won the snowboarding World Cup less than six months after surgery. Now his mission, to win Olympic gold, to encourage organ donation and to meet the parents of the 13- year-old boy whose liver saved his life.

C. KLUG: I'd like to tell them in person, thank you for saving my life, for giving me another chance to pursue my dreams.

COHEN: And those dreams begin Thursday when Chris starts his quest for a gold medal on the mountains of Utah.

Elizabeth Cohen, CNN, Salt Lake City.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Some of it's really sport. Some of it's not.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, a royal moment for New York's own Rudy Giuliani. Sir Rudy when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: You recall very early in his term, President Bush faced a lot of criticism when he said he would not back the Kyoto Treaty to cut down on global warming. He asked his cabinet to come up with other options. And it looks like they have found some he'll support. Funny how that works.

More on that announcement expected tomorrow, but Kelly Wallace has been doing what reporters do, working the story at the White House and she joins us now -- Kelly.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, you will recall also, 178 nations accepted that Kyoto agreement to fight global warming. President Bush, the only U.S.-leader to reject it, charging it exempts developing nations and large polluters such as India and also charging it would have a dramatic impact on the economy. U.S. officials saying under Kyoto, the U.S. would lose about 5 million jobs. The Kyoto agreement calling for mandatory reductions in greenhouse gas emissions.

And so, the plan the president will unveil tomorrow, largely a voluntary approach, offering incentives to businesses to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions and invest in cleaner technologies. Also, the president linking greenhouse gas emissions to economic output, calling for an 18 percent reduction in greenhouse gas intensity over 10 years. Not to get too complicated here, what that is is the ratio of greenhouse gas emissions to economic output. U.S. officials tell us what this would mean would be about a 4.5 percent reduction in greenhouse gas emissions in this country over 10 years. They say that it exactly just what countries would actually do under Kyoto.

The second part of the president's plan, Aaron, taking into account those power plant emissions. U.S. officials saying the president's plan would lead to the largest reduction in power plant emissions in U.S. history. Here, the president would be calling for mandatory caps on power plant emissions, but large polluters would be able to purchase credit from smaller polluters to meet these new guidelines.

Now, environmentalists, Aaron, are already saying that this largely market-based, largely voluntary approach just isn't good enough, that you need mandatory reductions in greenhouse gas emissions. But U.S. officials say the president is balancing economic growth with protecting the environment. They also say that if the entire global community, including developing nations, would adhere to the president's plan that the president's plan could actually lead to a larger reduction in greenhouse gas emissions than Kyoto. It will be interesting to see what U.S. allies have to say. The president clearly wanted to get this out before he travels to Asia. He leaves for Japan on Saturday -- Aaron.

BROWN: Kelly, thank you. Kelly Wallace. We will have more on this tomorrow as all the specifics come out. Thank you for your efforts tonight, Kelly Wallace.

Before September 11, New York's then mayor Rudolph Giuliani was limping towards the end of his term. He bailed out of a run for the U.S. Senate against Hillary Clinton. He was in the middle of a nasty and very public divorce. His lawyer was saying some perfectly awful things about the mayor's wife, and it seemed like Rudy, who New Yorkers either loved or loved to hate, would end his eight years with a whimper.

And then came the bang, September 11, and Rudy rose to the occasion. He was the best Rudy and even his critics concede that. On the 10th of September, no one could have imagined that Rudolph Giuliani would be knighted. By the end of the year, the question was simply when, and when was today.

Richard Quest followed the story today from London, which is exactly the right place to follow this, and joins us now. Richard, good evening to you.

RICHARD QUEST, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening to you, Aaron.

BROWN: Was it...

QUEST: Now, Rudy Giuliani...

BROWN: Go ahead.

QUEST: Well, I was going to tell you in Britain, we called these getting a gong. They're known as -- that's the slang name when you are given an award by the Queen. And Rudy was given his gong at Buckingham Palace.

Interestingly, he decided to bow to the Queen. There is always an enormous debate when Americans receive their awards, or indeed whenever they meet her majesty, whether or not they will actually bow their head to her. Giuliani clearly decided that that was the best way to go about things. And as you can see, he did nod his head to the queen.

He actually spoke to her for around about 53 seconds. Why is that significant? Because it's a lot longer than most people get. Most people, they're handed their award and off they get shunted to the side. Not with Rudy Giuliani. He and the Queen had a chat. He basically said that he was accepting this award on behalf of the people of New York and he thanked Britain because for all its steadfast support for the Americans, and indeed, particularly for New York during this time.

One interesting point, Aaron, there was no dubbing. You know how the Queen -- you always think of the Queen sort of going -- tapping on the shoulders. Well, there was none of that because it's an honorary knighthood. So, she doesn't hit him on the shoulders, or didn't with a sword and to say, arise, Sir Rudy. But it was indeed a knighthood and that's indeed what he's got, Rudy Giuliani, KCB.

BROWN: Rudy Giuliani, what? What was the end?

QUEST: Well, you see, it's also known, besides getting a gong, it's also known as getting your keg (ph) which means basically you have been given a knighthood. KCB, they're the letters he'll be able to put after his name from now henceforth. He won't be called Sir Rudy, although, as this morning's "Sun" newspaper -- I can't show you the full paper, because it has large bare-breasted ladies in it, and that might be a bit much for you at this time of the morning. But the morning "Sun" newspaper has "Arise, Sir Rudy." Technically, he will not be a sir, because he's American. However, for his leadership, he deserves his title, and he will always be known as Sir Rudy.

Interestingly, when he was asked about that, he said that while some people in Manhattan might be impressed that he is Sir Rudy, in Brooklyn they'd knock that out of him. I won't do the accent. He is in good company with his knighthood. Other people who have managed to get their knighthoods include Billy Graham, the Reverend Billy Graham, and Steven Spielberg got his, and also Pele, the Brazilian footballer. BROWN: Richard, thank you. You were great. Thank you, Richard Quest, in London tonight.

Does anyone remember the question I asked? No. He was terrific. A sad note before we go to break here, Waylon Jennings died today. He died of complications after a long battle with diabetes. He was one of the finest country singers who ever lived, one of the luckiest, at least early on. Waylon Jennings gave up his seat on a small plane one night back in 1959. You know the rest of the story. The plane crashed, killing his friend and his mentor, the great Buddy Holly.

Waylon Jennings once said the crash gave him a sense of urgency, that he had work to do. And work he did. He established a sound that was more authentic, more roots-oriented than the fashion of his time. His style became known as outlaw country. Waylon Jennings made hit records with Willie Nelson, and Kris Kristofferson, and Johnny Cash. He was 64 when he died today.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Until a few years ago, the worst a computer hacker could expect for getting caught was a job at the company he hacked, helping the company defend itself against hackers like him. Well, that sentence -- today, if a new bill gets through Congress, hacking could become a crime, punishable, in the most extreme cases -- OK, I'm going to underline that -- by life in prison. The bill is called the Cyber Security Enhancement Act. Here to talk about it with us, TechTV's Alex Wellen, who joins us from San Francisco. It's nice to see you again.

ALEX WELLEN, SENIOR PRODUCER, CO HOST TECHTV "CYBERCRIMES": It's nice to see you too.

BROWN: The high-tech industry by and large would like to see tougher laws on hackers, wouldn't it?

WELLEN: I think so. I mean, there is a big debate right now. We have got a lot of enforcement coming out of the Patriot Act, that going back to October, 2001. If you remember, Aaron, we passed a lot of laws very quickly in one month's time following September 11. And in that, there are a lot of changes to the law, a lot as to what law enforcement could and could not do and how they could monitor us. It goes back to the story you were talking about earlier.

And in addition to that, they made some modifications to the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, which deals with computer crime. So we can talk about that for a moment, because before you can talk about enhancing cyber security, you should understand what it is that you're enhancing. And you're enhancing the Patriot Act, which is something very new.

BROWN: And the state of the law now, if I hack into, let's say, a hospital database and I get caught, what happens to me? WELLEN: Right. So you have trespassed. You have abused the ability of going into the system, and then you caused some damage. So right now, if it's a first offense and you did it -- you did it either recklessly or intentionally -- if you did it negligently, it's a misdemeanor. But if you did it recklessly or intentionally, you can get a maximum of 10 years.

And the law used to be, before the Patriot Act, a maximum of five years for a first offense. So they doubled that. And then there's federal sentencing guidelines, and there are a number of things that they consider.

BROWN: And now this bill that started -- and it just did start its way through the congressional process today, adds penalties on top of those penalties?

WELLEN: Right. Well, it deals with a very specific things. What you got to do is when it comes to the existing law right now -- you gave an excellent example -- the most that person is going to get right now is, more likely than not if they are a domestic terrorist, to some extent, 10 years maximum first.

So now what is going to happen is, if you intentionally trespass into a computer system and you cause damage -- you are meant to cause damage -- you could be looking at a life sentence. You can be looking at a life sentence under this enhancement law.

BROWN: OK. Let's play with that in just the 30, 40 seconds we have left. Because, the way at least I read it tonight, it is that you have to have done something that either did or could have caused someone to lose their life.

WELLEN: That's exactly right. You hit the point. So it has to be some sort of physical harm or death that it could cause to someone. So it's an important distinction. When it comes to enhancing the law, if you do something, like medical records, and you change something or you delete something that it has the direct effect of killing someone or hurting them in some sort of significant, severe way, well, then you could be theoretically looking at life imprisonment for hacking.

BROWN: Alex, good to talk to you. Thank you, Alex Wellen.

WELLEN: Thank you too.

BROWN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is in San Francisco. Thank you, sir.

A change of pace here, but it keeps us out West. There is a bit of deja vu in this story. It is reminiscent of the Matthew Shepard case, though so far no one in this case is dead. That, as you will hear, is more about luck than anything else. And, like the Matt Shepard case, this story also makes the point that by and large people, communities are good and decent, and they are appalled when others are threatened and attacked. None of this is surprising, but it's always good to be reminded.

And so, from Montana tonight, here's CNN's Frank Buckley. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Amid the beauty of Big Sky Country, Missoula, Montana, an ugly scar that is just beginning to heal. This house, a home to two parents and their infant son, was set ablaze with the family asleep inside. They were able to scramble to safety through a window, Carla Grayson, Adrienne Neff and their little boy.

CARLA GRAYSON, ARSON VICTIM: Without a doubt, being burned out of our home is the worst thing that's ever happened to me.

BUCKLEY: The fire followed another act of violence, though. Just a day before, a threatening letter to their mailbox from an anonymous sender.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Specifically, it said: "Die dykes."

BUCKLEY: Carol Snetsinger and Nancy Siegel received an identical letter.

CAROL SNETSINGER, VICTIM OF HATE LETTER: I think it was a pretty cowardly way to try to intimidate us.

BUCKLEY: Intimidate them after the lesbian couples filed suit, along with the ACLU, against the Montana University system, seeking health benefits for same-sex partners. The letters and the fire followed intensive publicity on the lawsuit.

(on camera): The fire was especially hurtful to people in this community, because Missoula prides itself on its inclusiveness and openmindedness.

(voice-over): Who was behind this and why, still an open question with police.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As to whether they intended to damage the property or to scare someone or actually put someone's life in jeopardy, they accomplished all three of those.

BUCKLEY: Maybe so. But if their intention was to weaken this community, Mayor Mike Kadas says, they failed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I think this is the kind of thing that will make us stronger.

BUCKLEY: And if they thought it would stop the suit from going forward, they were wrong.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think whoever did the arson and whoever's sent the letters, if they could see the amount of love and support they've caused in this community, they would feel fairly defeated.

Frank Buckley, CNN, Missoula, Montana.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: As we head toward segment seven, staying beneath the veil. This is NEWSNIGHT.

BROWN: Pretty snazzy graphic.

Early on, after the defeat of the Taliban, we saw a lot of women in the cities of Afghanistan throwing off their burkahs in triumph and victory. But we also saw many others keeping them on. For them the burkah was not so much a statement of fashion, it was a very complicated piece of clothing as you will see in this from CNN's Rose Arce.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROSE ARCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Malika's courtyard, where she can draw her own water from the family well, a place to tend to her chickens and care for her husband and children -- nine children, 13 grandchildren, 55 years. The Taliban, she says, passed over her life like a cloud travels across the afternoon sky.

(on camera): Is there anything that's going to change in your life now because the Taliban is gone?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Me, I don't want any changes because God has created us, and we have to act according to his way.

ARCE (voice-over): In her house, there has never been music or art for these bare walls, and there will be none now. She covered her face long before the Taliban. She covers it now.

(on camera): Are you worried that they're going to be pushed to be different?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): If I see that they're learning to live differently, then I will not let them go to school.

ARCE (voice-over): An international outcry. Peer pressure to change. A war that deposed government enforcement of a woman's place. No outside force will change life for Malika. Certainly not the inquisitive questions of westerners.

(on camera): Why should women have to cover themselves?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): On doomsday we will have to answer God. How did we live our life? And God will not be able to blame us for uncovering ourselves to him.

ARCE (voice-over): That makes the burkah just another piece of fabric, meted out in the marketplace by the yard. Another thing to cover the head with, it means Malika rarely leaves her courtyard to join the handfuls of women who venture out, the roaming shadows. The color blue labels them as women from Kabul. But she opened her circle for one woman from outside that world, but eventually she asked me to cover my head too. She worried what would happen when I faced my God.

(on camera): If you can only see somebody's eyes, then how can you tell if they are happy or sad, if you can't see their smile?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I am a Muslim, and so my heart can see inside people. I don't need to pay attention to a person's appearance. I follow Mohammed, so can feel who they are in my heart.

ARCE (voice-over): And it is to the call of that heart and that spirit that she says all Muslim women will answer.

Rose Arce, CNN, Kabul.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That's all for tonight. Jeff Greenfield and Greenfield and company is next. We will see you tomorrow at ten. Good night.

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