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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Enron Whistle-Blower Testifies Before Congress; Slobodan Milosevic Back in Court
Aired February 14, 2002 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
It is Valentine's Day, and one of our writers, Linda Keenan (ph), thought it might be a nice time to talk about a couple of women and the valentines that they gave today.
There was Sherron Watkins, a Congressman wished the Enron executive a Happy Valentine's Day, as she said down before a House panel. A straight-talking Texan through and through, so tough people thought she was a New Yorker. She's the one who wrote the really scathing memo to her boss, Ken Lay, back in the summer. She knew the books could crunch all the numbers, and she warned that the company could implode in a wave of accounting scandals, her words.
Today, she told Congress, Enron was a place where truth and integrity might just get you fired, a Valentine for those trying to find the truth in the fog of shredded documents and pleas of ignorance.
And then there was Marianne Pearl, six months pregnant with a boy. Today, she wrote an open letter to the people, whoever they are, who kidnapped her husband in Pakistan, journalist Danny Pearl. This was a plea for her husband's life, the most personal, intimate one she has made so far.
"Our child is a living soul" she said. "He is now breathing into his being the worry I have about my husband's well-being." As Linda Keenan noted, this was a love letter like no other, and surely the most powerful valentine we've seen today. We agree, Linda.
With that, we're on to the day's news, and we begin with the Enron story of the day. Jonathan Karl has been working it. He's on the Hill and he joins us. Jon, a headline.
JONATHAN KARL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well the whistle-blower, as she is known up here on Capitol Hill, received a hero's welcome, and in a bit of a surprise, she gave something of a valentine to her former boss, Ken Lay.
BROWN: Jon, back with you shortly. The latest on the Milosevic war crimes trial going on in the Hague, Christiane Amanpour working the story. Christiane, a headline please. CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the first former city head of state in the dark, he said he'd been waiting seven months to tell his side of the story, and he announced as he started out that the prosecution's case was an ocean of lies.
BROWN: Christiane, thank you. The latest on Danny Pearl, Ben Wedeman has been working the story. Ben, give us what we know today.
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Aaron. Well, the chief suspect in the kidnapping of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl, appeared in an anti-terrorism court in Karachi, and there he told the court, "as far as I know, Daniel Pearl is dead" contradicting a statement he made earlier to police that Pearl is alive and is in Karachi. Ahmad Omar Saeed Sheikh didn't deny involvement in the kidnapping. He told the court "right or wrong, I had my reasons. I think our country should not be catering to America's needs."
Now Pakistani police confounded by these contradictory claims and misleading leads, now say they don't believe a word their key suspect has to say. Now, as you mentioned, Marianne, the six-month pregnant wife of Daniel Pearl, made a statement, an appeal to the kidnappers.
She said in that statement: "From the bottom of my heart, I appeal to you to please release Danny and enable us to continue carrying out the path we have chosen to pursue. I have faith you will trust the sincerity of my message to you as a wife and expectant mother, and that you will let him go free to join me." But the kidnappers, unmoved by the appeal, remain silent. Aaron.
BROWN: Ben, thank you, the latest on the Danny Pearl kidnapping tonight. We have a lot more coming up as well. Race and the City of Cincinnati tonight, almost a year after the riots, there's trouble there again. This time, many Black leaders in the city are calling for a boycott. Comedian Bill Cosby heard them and canceled an appearance. Others have too. But do these boycotts help or do they hurt the very people they are supposed to benefit? Do they solve a problem, or just make the problem worse?
In a fascinating battle over a commercial trying to keep teens from smoking, strange because the cigarette companies are protesting an ad they, in fact, are paying for, as part of the industry settlement with the state's tobacco cases long ago.
And it's Valentine's Day of course. For some bizarre reason, we decided to get some love songs, or at least some kind of love songs from the host of the Most Annoying Music Show. Yes, that's what the show is called, annoying, but trust me a bit funny, or at least we hope it is at the same time, all of that in the hour ahead.
It begins with Enron, and the other face of that scandal. There are moments at every major Congressional investigation of high drama, a moment when you begin to get in that most public way, a better understanding of how and why things happened the way they did. Some day we may look back on today and Sherron Watkins, as one of those moments, an insider's view of a company that, in her view at least, had lost its way, and in the words of a witness from another hearing a long time ago, lost its moral compass. Once again, CNN's Jonathan Karl.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KARL (voice over): Even before she spoke, Sherron Watkins was hailed as the lone heroine of the Enron story.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I think all of Americans thank you for what you did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What you've done is really very courageous. You're a hero.
KARL: If Watkins was the hero, her villains were Andrew Fastow, the accounting whiz who designed Enron's off-the-books partnerships, and Jeffrey Skilling, the CEO who abruptly resigned last August.
WATKINS: There were swindlers in the emperor's new clothes, discussing the fine material that they were weaving, and I think Mr. Skilling and Mr. Fastow are highly intimidating, very smart individuals, and I think they intimidated a number of people into accepting some structures that were not acceptable.
KARL: Watkins was especially harsh on Skilling, who testified last week that he didn't know about the company's questionable accounting practices.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think it's possible that Mr. Skilling was unaware of the nature of these transactions?
WATKINS: No, I do not.
KARL: Skilling's attorney shot back, accusing Watkins of trying to save Ken Lays' legacy, by shifting the blame to Skilling.
BRUCE HILER, SKILLING'S ATTORNEY: It's scapegoating and that's what's going on in there right now, and I'm a little appalled that Congress would participate in that.
KARL: In fact, as harsh as Watkins was on Mr. Skilling, she was easy on Mr. Lay.
WATKINS: I believed, and I still believe, that Mr. Lay is a man of integrity. He didn't shoot the messenger. I'm still at Enron, and I felt like I could bring the concerns to him.
KARL: Although Watkins did fear that her immediate boss, Andrew Fastow, would fire her and destroy her evidence, she conspired with fellow employee, Cindy Olson, to save her computer files.
WATKINS: He wanted to have me fired. He wanted to seize my computer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did he obtain your computer?
WATKINS: He did, but Ms. Olson basically said, "let me send you to your office with an IT person. Here's a new laptop. Transfer whatever files you want to on the new one. Delete whatever ones you want to on the old one and we'll just hand him the hardware. She said, "you don't mind doing that, do you?" And I said, "no, I don't."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you pulled a fast one on Andy?
KARL: As a further precaution, Watkins said she kept a copy of her now famous August memo in a lock box away from both her office and her home, so that nobody would be able to destroy it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(on camera): But it wasn't all hugs and kisses for Sherron Watkins. She was asked about her own Enron stock. We know that top Enron executives sold their stock as the company, but what about Sherron Watkins' stock? She was asked what she did. It turns out she sold $31,000 worth of Enron stock just after she wrote that memo to Ken Lay, warning memorably that the company would implode under a wave of accounting scandals, and they she sold another $17,000 in stock options in October. Small money, compared to the huge stock sales by the big executives, but nonetheless a tough question she faced today -- Aaron.
BROWN: Jon, thank you. Jonathan Karl, who's been covering Enron for us, thank you. A few other developments to note here, Enron today fired a pair of executives who took the Fifth last week, Richard Causey and Richard Buy. They were named in an in-house report for failing to investigate these complicated partnerships that sent Enron down the drain.
Also today, the man who drafted the report stepped down. William Powers said his work is done, time to get back to his normal duties. He's the dean of the law school at the University of Texas.
It seems like there's no shortage of heroes and villains in the program tonight. Slobodan Milosevic sees himself as a hero. Much of the world sees him otherwise. At his war crimes trial in The Hague, he didn't take the Fifth or anything like it, not the style for a man who sees himself as the victim in all of this. CNN's Christiane Amanpour covered many of the horrors of the Milosevic Era and is now covering his trial and joins us tonight. Christiane, good evening.
AMANPOUR: Good evening, and unlike what he's been doing in the past here, which is challenging the tribunal and assaulting its legitimacy, Slobodan Milosevic today put his side of the story forward.
It was four hours of often-impassioned opening statement. He was jabbing his finger angrily at the prosecution, glaring at them and telling them that they had nothing on him.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): Slobodan Milosevic began his presentation with a 50-minute documentary, produced by a German TV station and later denounced as distorted by highly regarded German journalists. This film claims that there were never civilian massacres in Kosovo, nor forced expulsions, as the indictment against Milosevic charges.
SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC, FORMER YUGOSLAV PRESIDENT (through translator): The population from Kosovo was expelled by the KLA because they ordered people to do so. They beat them and they killed them. That was number one. Number two, NATO through their air strikes, that is the truth behind your story about deportation.
AMANPOUR: Despite evidence to the contrary, Milosevic claims NATO's intervention in Kosovo in 1999 caused the Kosovo-Albanians to flee. He showed grizzly pictures of human remains to accuse NATO of deliberately targeting civilians. NATO has always denied that. But this is Milosevic's central theme, that it's NATO who should be on trial, and that he was just defending Serbia from Albanian separatists, that he calls terrorists.
MILOSEVIC (through translator): The Americans go right to the other side of the globe to fight against terrorism in Afghanistan, a case in point, right the other side of the world and that is considered to be logical and normal; whereas here, the struggle against terrorism in the heart of one's own country, in one's own home, is considered to be a crime.
AMANPOUR: Later, in a series of rebuttals, he challenged the prosecution charge that he knew or should have known about atrocities. For instance, about concentration camps filled with Muslim men in Bosnia.
MILOSEVIC (through translator): When I heard that there were some camps, I asked for an explanation. Is it possible that Serbs were setting up camps? And the explanation I received was the following: There are no camps. There are only prisons for prisoners of war.
AMANPOUR: About the siege of Sarajevo.
MILOSEVIC (through translator): Serbia in its official government statement, while I was the president of Serbia, condemned the shelling of Sarajevo. You basically have nothing, and that is why you have to concoct things. You have to invent things.
AMANPOUR: Milosevic finished up by telling his accusers their case against him was a pack of lies.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(on camera): And that is pretty much how we expect Milosevic to continue when he concludes his opening statement here today, and today he did come well prepared. You saw he had documentaries, photos. He had a briefcase full of typed notes and files. So he is now getting engaged in this process -- Aaron.
BROWN: Christiane, just one quick one. Who are the judges here?
AMANPOUR: The panel is a three-judge panel. The presiding judge is Judge May. One of the judges comes from Jamaica. The other one comes from South Korea. The presiding judge is English. It's pretty much the way this tribunal is set up. They've brought judges from all over the world and, of course, this is not a jury trial. The judges will decide.
BROWN: Christiane, thank you. Christiane Amanpour in The Hague tonight. In other news, the environment first, President Bush today unveiled his plan to deal with global warning. In his administration's answer to the Kyoto Treaty, it is called the Clear Skies Initiative.
It calls for incentives, not mandates, for industries to cut down on carbon dioxide emissions, the so-called greenhouse gases. The plan does, however, provide hard targets for reducing other emissions, including Mercury, certain gases that cause smog and acid rain. Critics call the plan a license to pollute. The administration says it is a tradeoff designed to clear the air without costing American jobs.
Other news now from Kandahar's airport. The flames are out but this is what it looked like a bit earlier today. That is a big time fire, a fire started by a stray flare. Some conflicting reports about this, but witnesses say they heard gunshots on the perimeter of the airfield. Military officials say no, the flares were set up as a precaution. Nobody taking any chances after a gun battle at the airport on Wednesday night.
Still to come tonight on NEWSNIGHT, MTV and the Secretary of State, in the same story. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Proof again today of what the great Art Linkletter said a long time ago, "kids say the darndest things." Secretary of State Powell joined with MTV for what may be described as the foreign policy edition of "Total Request Live," answering questions from young people all around the world, trying to sell the American story. The story is terrific. Selling it is tough work, as the secretary learned. Here's CNN's Andrea Koppel.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): For more than an hour, the MTV generation in seven capitols around the world, got their chance to grill the U.S. Secretary of State. They were not shy, and their questions, ranging from Kashmir to the War on Terrorism, were not easy.
This Afghan teen, now in New Delhi, said his mother was killed by the Taliban.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why before the September attack, the American Government didn't pay attention to Afghanistan?
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We were slow getting off the mark, recognizing the nature of that regime, but that regime is now gone, and there is now a new hope in Afghanistan for a better future for all the people of Afghanistan. KOPPEL: This young woman in London pulled no punches.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do you feel about representing a country commonly perceived as the Satan of contemporary politics?
POWELL: Well, I reject the characterization. Quite the contrary.
KOPPEL: If you're wondering why a man used to hobnobbing with world leaders decided to hang out with Gen X, the answer is in the numbers. MTV is seen in 164 countries.
POWELL: The United States has to do a better job of presenting our case of who we are, what we are, what our value system is, to the Islamic world and to nations around the world.
KOPPEL (on camera): Even for MTV, which prides itself on cutting edge programming, this global forum was a first.
KOPPEL (voice over): And the reason why?
DAVE SIRUTNICK, MTV: It's always important that young people have a dialog with their leaders, but after September 11th, it became even more so.
POWELL: That is a vision I have.
KOPPEL: So, how did he do?
MASSOUDA FAFIQI, PALESTINIAN AMERICAN: I don't think like the people that were from different countries would really understand what he's saying, and some of the words that he was saying was kind of, you know, high, so I didn't understand that much.
KOPPEL: Then again, these kids are used to the fast paced world of MTV, where lyrics in songs are sometimes tough to catch. The challenge is always getting them to want to listen. Andrea Koppel, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: What an interesting thing for the secretary to do. We have much more ahead tonight. Fighting racism in Cincinnati, is a boycott the way to go? This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It was almost a year ago that Cincinnati erupted in convulsive race rioting. The trigger was the death of an unarmed young Black man shot by a White police officer. After the rioting ended, after the curfews were lifted, the city Black leaders, business people, all got together and said, "this time it would be different. This time the city would really work to solve its race and economic problems."
Well it seems the solutions have not come fast enough for some. For some Black leaders have called for a boycott of the city. Bill Cosby for one, responded by canceling an appearance. In a moment, we'll talk with two Black leaders in Cincinnati, who find themselves tonight on opposite sides of this boycott question. But first some background from CNN's Brian Cabell.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Business leaders here like to call Cincinnati the Blue Chip City because it's home to several Fortune 500 corporations. But just a mile or so from the prosperous downtown in the shadow of the skyscrapers, lies the Over the Rhine neighborhood.
JULEAN FRIEDON, CINCINNATI BLACK UNITED FRONT: There's great wealth downtown, twelve blocks away, and then here you have how many, 20,000 people living in poverty.
CABELL: Over the Rhine is mostly Black and poor. Last spring it was the site of riots, following a police shooting of an unarmed Black man. There has been a simmering anger here for years, allegations of abuse by police, allegations of negligence by big business and city government. And it's not just African-Americans who are upset.
MIKE MCCLEESE, STONEWALL, CINCINNATI: You have to face the fact that yes, there is racism, and yes there is homophobia in Cincinnati.
CABELL: Now two groups, Blacks an gays, have joined together calling for out of staters not to spend money here. Comedian Bill Cosby, perhaps the most prominent African-American entertainer, recently gave a big boost to the boycott when he canceled a show here. Singer Smokey Robinson did the same. Other cancellations may follow. To Mayor Charlie Luken, that makes no sense.
CHARLIE LUKEN, MAYOR, CINCINNATI: The people getting hurt by this are not the people running Procter & Gamble. It's people washing dishes and the people taking tickets, and the people parking valets.
CABELL: The City Council, both Black and White members, claim the city is doing its best to improve relations with minorities in town.
CABELL (on camera): But this is not an issue that simply its gays, lesbians, and Blacks against the power structure here in Cincinnati. It's a little more complicated than that.
CABELL (voice over): Go to a Black-owned clothing store downtown and you'll hear opposition to the boycott.
ANDREW WILLIAMS, STORE OWNER: I think there are other ways that we can work to make things better in Cincinnati.
CABELL: Go to a gay nightclub and you'll hear the same story.
PETER LAFFOON, CLUB OWNER: A lot of people in the gay community are trying to build something in this city. I don't see where a boycott does anything to build anything. CABELL: Boycott leaders concede some businesses will suffer.
AMANDA MAYES, COALITION FOR A JUST CINCINNATI: Everything doesn't boil down to dollars, and people will lose a dollar here and a dollar there in order to secure their civil and human rights.
CABELL: It is a battle that Cincinnati, which has always prided itself on being friendly and livable, didn't want. It's a battle that likely will do financial damage to the Blue Chip City.
Brian Cabell, CNN, Cincinnati.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Joining us now, Paul Booth, who's the President Pro Tem of the Cincinnati City Council, and in Louisville, Kentucky tonight, the Reverend Damon Lynch III. Reverend Lynch is the president of the Cincinnati Black United Front, one of the organizers of the boycott. It's good to see you both again. Thanks for joining us.
PAUL BOOTH, PRESIDENT PRO TEM, CINCINNATI CITY COUNCIL: Good to be with you.
BROWN: Reverend Lynch, the last time we talked nine months ago, that's not a very long time, what is it that should have been done as briefly as you can make it, that hasn't been done?
REVEREND DAMON LYNCH III, PRESIDENT, CINCINNATI BLACK UNITED FRONT: In that nine months, Aaron, there's been no justice. Three police officers were indicted for taking the lives of Cincinnati citizens. All three of those officers have been let go free, back on the job. They have not been disciplined by the Cincinnati Police Division, and so the community still cries out for justice, and that is the major sticking point that we have right now in the City of Cincinnati.
BROWN: And Councilman Booth, I get the feeling here that you agree on the nature of the problem. You just don't agree on the remedy that Reverend Lynch has proposed here.
BOOTH: Sure, I feel the pain that Reverend Lynch feels, and I feel the pain certainly that citizens feel, and that's why I've called for talks for us to sit down and let's work this out. It didn't happen overnight, and it's not going to be resolved overnight. But we can't bring reconciliation and healing unless we sit down and talk the matter out face-to-face.
BROWN: And why has that not happened?
BOOTH: Well it's not happened because the two sides are unwilling to come together at this point. But I've called for us to come together with mediators, nationally-known mediators, to sit down with us so that we can find out if there's common ground for a resolution of the issues at hand.
BROWN: And Reverend Lynch, I assume you're willing to talk? LYNCH: Well, yes, I agree and I think - you asked why hasn't that happened. One of the reasons is the mayor or our city has just recently said that he will not sit down and talk, has called people in the city economic terrorists. This is after promising a major Black convention giving him the impression that he would sit down and talk.
And after they left town, agreeing to come to Cincinnati, two days later he changed his mind and said he would not sit down and talk. I join Paul Booth in his disappointment in the mayor's decision not talk, which would put Cincinnati in a Win-Lose situation, as opposed to a Win-Win situation, I think we can get out talking.
BROWN: And this argument, Reverend Lynch, which it does seem to carry some weight, is that many of the people you are hurting by this boycott are the very people who would benefit by business coming to town.
LYNCH: Yes.
BROWN: People that work in restaurants and that sort of thing. There's some truth there.
LYNCH: Yes, Aaron, two things. First of all, the boycotts are the historic tried and true measures of social non-violent change. They worked from Gandhi to King, to South Africa to South Carolina, Arizona, Miami.
Secondly, people that are hurting in Cincinnati are not hurting because a few Black activists, and now the gay community, have called for sanctions. They're hurting because they have failed economic development policies in our city. This city can not keep an economic development director. Failed neighborhood policy, failed downtown, there's no vision for the downtown, and so for them now to try to pinpoint the problems of Cincinnati on some Black activists, the urban poor, and others, is just ridiculous.
And so, Cincinnati's had problems before April. April heightened the tensions. April brought it to life, brought it on a national scene, and we have yet to remedy those problems.
BROWN: Councilman Booth, we've got about 45 seconds here. When I was last in Cincinnati, there was a sense that this time might be different. So let me ask you the question I asked back then. Will this time be different, or is Cincinnati back where it was in those days before the rioting, nine months ago?
BOOTH: Well, I think this time it must be different. And I want to thank Reverend Lynch for his willingness to sit down. And I hope that that will happen in the next several days. We've got to sit down and talk it out, and that's the only way it's going to work.
Talking at each other through the media has not worked. We must sit down face to face and face the matters at hand, because they are certainly severe at this point.
BROWN: Councilman Booth, Reverend Lynch, good to talk to both of you again. It's been a while. It's nice to see you looking well. The.
LYNCH: All right, Aaron, thank you.
BOOTH: Thank you, good to be with you.
BROWN: Thank you.
Coming up on NEWSNIGHT next, change gears, what's on the hot sheet? What are people talking about? Jim Mullen of "Entertainment Weekly" joins us as NEWSNIGHT continues on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Well, there are some perks for working for the world's largest media company, and it doesn't include free cable, if that's what you're thinking. What I'm talking about here is, we get to meet a lot of interesting people who work for other parts of the world's largest media company.
Which brings us to Jim Mullen. He writes the "Hot Sheet" for "Entertainment Weekly" and can pretty much talk about any topic that you wasted time talking about at work today.
Nice to see you, sir.
JIM MULLEN, "ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY": A pleasure, a pleasure.
BROWN: The ultimate water-cooler job, isn't it?
MULLEN: Absolutely, absolutely.
BROWN: I want to talk to you about specific things, but I want to know, what's the last job you had before you had this job?
MULLEN: I delivered pizzas.
BROWN: OK.
MULLEN: That's how it goes.
BROWN: That -- we got some things that...
MULLEN: But AOL-Time Warner's been very good to me. You know, something you ate today, they touched. It's a huge conglomerate.
BROWN: Good, let's bite the hand that feeds us.
I want to look ahead to next week, because I assume on everyone -- what'll be number one on the charts next week is the pairs figure skating.
MULLEN: Pairs figure skating. Well, you know, it is a tragedy, when you think about it, these people spent four years training at the highest level. They won, everybody knows they won artistically, they won technically, they won in the popular vote. And then the judges took it away from them, gave the prize to somebody else. But that's enough about Al Gore, let's talk about pairs skating. Actually, all the judges voted for the Canadian pair, it's just the French judge's chad didn't get all the way punched through, and they miscounted. Two of the judges voted for Pat Buchanan for mistake.
BROWN: It's funny how history repeats itself.
MULLEN: It is kind of odd.
BROWN: Have you seen the curling, by the way? Do you get passes for it?
MULLEN: Curling, I love the curling. It is -- there's something -- I don't know how, marvelous about the curling. My feeling is, where do you go to practice that? If you wanted to learn curling, where are you going to -- Oh, let's go down to the curling rink. It's (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
I think they're doing a good job with the Olympics this year. Last time they did the Olympics, the Summer Olympics, it was on TV, it was for people that didn't like sports. Oh, here, we'll start the event, and then talk to their mother.
BROWN: Yes, who did like diseases, though, because they had a lot of people who were -- had been sick once in their life.
MULLEN: This, had got their skeleton this time, which is the real popular -- these sleds can go, like, 80 miles an hour. I don't know a car that can do that. They have snowboarding, snowboarding. Did you see the snowboarding?
BROWN: Yes, little bit.
MULLEN: It's like they're going off a cliff into, you know, like shards of glass and everything. I mean, I really enjoyed that. I want to do that like I want to test bungee cords.
BROWN: All right. I want to talk about a couple of other things. People around here, at least, the other day were talking about the Oscars.
MULLEN: The Oscars.
BROWN: Are movies in particular seem to be what is on people's minds, any particular movies?
MULLEN: Well, in the nominations, I thought the surprise was "Moulin Rouge," because half the critics hated it, and half the critics loved it. And if it wins -- it was directed by the name Baz Luhrmann, and I'm thinking, you know, everybody's going to want to name their kid Baz now.
Where did that come from? What is that? Well, you're famous, you sign autographs. You know, people come up to you and they're, Oh, it's for Cindy. And you go, Is that with an I, or a Y, or two E's, or a K? You don't even know any more, it's, like, Americans are into funny names.
BROWN: And "Lord of the Rings," people talk about that?
MULLEN: Love "Lord of the Rings." I mean, a lot of people, again, the critics, some had problems with that. But my feeling about "Lord of the Rings" is, as opposed to another Oscar nominee, "In the Bedroom," which I saw, which has got three best actor nominations, I don't know if you've seen it, but it has -- I saw it on Christmas Day, I'm still depressed. It is the downer movie of all time. Nobody's going to see this thing twice.
BROWN: Yes.
MULLEN: Whereas "Lord of the Rings,' I think, is much more like "Wizard of Oz," and it's a movie you'll see every year from now on when it does make TV and everything...
BROWN: All right. How we doing on...
MULLEN: It's a very...
BROWN: Hang on. How we doing on time, David? OK.
MULLEN: Thirty more minutes? OK, fine.
BROWN: No, no. The number one thing this week, it was Whoopi Goldberg, that was an Oscar-related deal?
MULLEN: Whoopi Goldberg, she sends her Oscar out to have it cleaned, and it gets stolen. She sent her Oscar out to have it cleaned. Whoopi, watch me. It's all clean. What is she doing with it, cleaning the toilet? What thing -- how does it get so dirty that you're going to send it out? I'm begging you, Whoopi, call me.
BROWN: Madonna was on your list this week.
MULLEN: Madonna.
BROWN: Do you make these things up, or are these actually things people are talking about?
MULLEN: This -- they sent out a press release that Madonna is going to do a song for a new James Bond movie. And I'm thinking to myself, Well, gee, I wasn't going to go before, but now that she's got a song -- Now, you know, have you watched all the James Bond movies?
BROWN: I've watched a few.
MULLEN: All right. Let me ask you a question.
BROWN: Oh, great.
MULLEN: Have you ever seen James Bond lift up a pair of luggage, I mean, anywhere? He goes from London to Rio and he goes into this hotel, and there's, like, a tuxedo that turns into a diving suit. He doesn't carry it, there's no handler, there's no thing with the little wheels. It's -- how does he do that?
BROWN: He has an assistant...
MULLEN: You never see that.
BROWN: ... he has somebody like Molly.
MULLEN: It's unbelievable.
BROWN: Nice to meet you. Come back and see us again.
MULLEN: A pleasure.
BROWN: You just make this stuff up, right?
MULLEN: Sure.
BROWN: Thank you.
We're just kind of going all sorts of ways today. There's an interesting story coming up. Of course, I would say that since I sit here every night. Too much for big tobacco to take ads it pays for and does not like.
This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Well, strange to think that an industry would be forced to advertise against itself, but that is the case with big tobacco in the United States. And we're not just talking about the little warning on the pack of cigarettes.
When the industry settled the huge lawsuits the states had filed against it, it agreed to spend more than a billion dollars on antismoking ads. Some of the ads are theirs, others are farmed out to the American Legacy Foundation. And the Legacy ads are some of the harshest ads ever produced on the subject. Too harsh, it turns out, for the industry.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): They are unforgettable and very tough on tobacco and the people who make cigarettes. But then, the audience they are trying to reach, young people, seem to demand this kind of bluntness.
WENDY MELLILO, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, "ADWEEK" MAGAZINE: Do they go too far? That's a subjective call. But from the perspective of Legacy, who's trying to get kids to stop smoking, they absolutely don't think they're going too far.
BROWN: This particular fight is about a radio commercial no longer being aired that offers to provide a Lorillard employee with dog urine because, the commercial says, it contains urea, a chemical put into cigarettes.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, RADIO COMMERCIAL)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Hello, sir, I have a business idea, a pee proposal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELLILO: It's been Legacy's tactic all along to bring this home to the tobacco companies themselves. But interestingly enough, Legacy has involved teens in all of their creative. They've asked for their input. And it was teens who said, We want to bring it home to the tobacco companies.
BROWN: Two years ago, it was Philip Morris that complained. The company said this ad, showing teenagers dumping body bags in front of its New York City headquarters, violated the spirit of the tobacco settlement agreement, the $1.5 billion tobacco companies agreed to spend to educate the public about the dangers of their products.
The Legacy Foundation was created to deliver those commercials.
DR. CHERYL HEALTON, CEO, THE LEGACY FOUNDATION: It is the most successful tobacco-control ad in the history of the world. It has won multiple awards. It has extremely high recognition among teens. And the recognition among teens has continued consistently even though the ad is no longer airing.
BROWN: The tobacco companies have long said they don't want kids to smoke. They run their own ads on the subject. But no ad the industry runs comes close to even the tamest ad produced by Legacy.
HEALTON: Our campaign has probably been the most successful social marketing campaign in the history of the United States, and the result will be countless lives that are not cut short due to becoming addicted to nicotine as a teenager.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (on camera): Joining us now is the CEO of the American Legacy Foundation, Cheryl Healton, and Steve Watson, who's the vice president for external affairs at the Lowellard -- Lorillard, rather, Tobacco Company. Thanks to both of you for joining us.
Mr. Watson, let me give you the first word here. What's your problem? Why are you going to sue these people, if in fact you decide to sue these people?
STEVE WATSON, VICE PRESIDENT, EXTERNAL AFFAIRS, LORILLARD TOBACCO COMPANY: Well, let me clear something up that was in your piece before.
BROWN: Sure.
WATSON: You talked about our objections to them being too harsh or over the top. That, in fact, is not it at all. What we object to is very specific. There was an agreement that was made in 1998 that you're familiar with, it was a historic agreement called the Master Settlement Agreement. All the tobacco -- major tobacco companies signed that, along with 46 states attorneys generals.
And within that agreement are some very specific rules by which we must abide by as well as the American Legacy Foundation. And in fact, in that agreement, the American Legacy Foundation was created. And it is funded entirely by the tobacco companies.
And let me tell you, it says specifically right within that agreement, of what type of advertising is allowed. And it's just two sentences, but if I may, it says, "The National Public Education Foundation," which is now ALF, "shall be used only for public education and advertising regarding the addictiveness, health effects, and social costs related to the use of tobacco products, and that -- and shall not be used for any personal attack on or vilification of any person, whether by name or business affiliation, company or governmental agency, whether individually or collectively."
And so what we've seen, and clearly by the ad that you referred to, the dog walker ad, where they secretly taped our employees for the use without their consent or knowledge, where they use our name, and where they purposely used misleading information about our products, is vilification.
What we're doing...
BROWN: Go ahead.
WATSON: What we're doing specifically -- what we're really asking for here, and it's clear how to identify what we're looking for and what we're not looking for, this is not about money, this is not about trying to penalize anyone or shut down the American Legacy Foundation, it's about to try and get clarification, a declaratory judgment by a judge to give us better clarification as to what is vilification and what is acceptable.
BROWN: OK.
WATSON: And that's really what this issue's about.
BROWN: Steve, let me turn to Cheryl for a second. Will you concede, perhaps, that these ads, by at least one reasonable interpretation, have crossed the line?
HEALTON: Well, I don't think they've crossed the line. I mean, I think this particular product costs lives of 430,000 Americans every year, and in order for that to continue to happen, young people have to begin smoking.
This campaign, I think, does precisely what the MSA called upon it to do. It called upon us to launch a successful countermarketing campaign that would be edgy enough and exciting enough that the type of young person that's going to become a smoker would stand up and notice it and be dissuaded from picking up...
BROWN: But...
HEALTON: ... this deadly habit. BROWN: But there are rules, and do you think that you violated or -- yes, do you think you violated the rules? That's all, I mean...
HEALTON: I do not at all.
BROWN: ... that's the argument. OK.
HEALTON: I absolutely do not. I do not think saying the name of a tobacco company violates them. I don't think that making a legal call to the public information line of any number of tobacco companies and playing a joke, which really was what this was, it was intended to be humorous, and it was humorous. It was intended to get across the notion that there are unusual ingredients in these products.
You probably know there are hundreds of additives, over 40 of them are known carcinogens. The company, as you well know, Steve, you're not required to put the contents of your product on the product itself. I don't believe you publicly post it, as do the three large tobacco companies.
So we feel that if our job is to educate young people about the additives, the health effects, and the social costs, in order to do that and do it effectively, you know, we certainly have to talk about what people are putting in their bodies when they use this cigarette.
BROWN: Steve, I'm going to give you the last word here, but let me ask the question this way. I have a 13-year-old, and I will tell you honestly, she does not remember a single ad the industry has run, the kind of eat-your-vegetables, don't-start-smoking ads that big tobacco runs. But she knows this ad, and that ad stays with her. And, you know, there is something to be said for that.
WATSON: Well, let's be clear. We're not opposed to all the ads that the American Legacy has run. We're -- we have particularly a problem with certain ads that -- which are clear violations of the Masters Settlement Agreement.
Furthermore, there are many effective ways to communicate with kids. I don't think that that one approach, in which you have to secretly tape employees and provide false information, is necessarily the most effective.
But more than just that, what the Masters Settlement Agreement states is that they need to focus on the health risks associated with tobacco. We at Lorillard began our own program three years ago, spending tens of millions of dollars a year. We did a lot of research before we initiated this program. We found that a major cause for kids to begin smoking was to be perceived as cool and gain acceptance among their peers.
So we've decided to focus our attention on that aspect. You know, as a result of it, the interest...
BROWN: Steve...
WATSON: ... is really the benefit to this. BROWN: I'm sorry, because I really -- it's not always easy to get you guys to come on, and I appreciate enormously that you have, and we ran out of time. We'll see where this goes, and we'll finish the conversation another night. Thank you. Cheryl, thank you too.
Segment Seven, on Valentine's Day, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: OK, we know what you're doing. After all, it's not that tricky. It is, after all, Valentine's Day, so what else would you be doing? There's soft lights in your house, dramatic music. Hey, wait a minute. We've got one more segment to go here.
It is Segment Seven. And where else would you find a man who has spent his entire life -- well, probably not his entire life, but a large portion of it -- looking for the worst music ever made? And that's what Jim Nayder does. He's the host of "The Annoying Music Show" on National Public Radio, and he joins us tonight from Chicago with some very special music for your Valentine's Eve.
Nice to see you.
JIM NAYDER, "THE ANNOYING MUSIC SHOW": Aaron, it's an honor to be on your distinguished program.
BROWN: Well...
NAYDER: Actually, it's an honor for us to be on any program, so...
BROWN: All right...
NAYDER: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
BROWN: ... now, you've got four or five really terrifically annoying songs, right, that are love songs for Valentine's Day.
NAYDER: Yes, they all have a Valentine's theme. And you actually requested this one, so this is an instant request. It's Tiny Tim and Bob Dylan's tribute to Sonny and Cher.
(LAUGHTER)
I don't have a picture of Tiny, but I have a picture of...
BROWN: How do the...
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "I GOT YOU BABE")
BOB DYLAN (singing): ... 'cause you got me, and baby, I got you...
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BROWN: That's unbelievable. All right... NAYDER: They were using (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
BROWN: Enough of that one. What else you got?
NAYDER: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE). OK.
BROWN: Oh.
NAYDER: We're going to ease in easy. This is number five, and let's see what this is. There we go, we got it up. If the Beatles had recorded like this, they'd be popular today.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "LOVE ME DO")
BRADY BUNCH (singing): Love, love me do, you know I love you, I'll always be true. So please...
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BROWN: Oh, those kids could sing, couldn't they?
NAYDER: They can.
BROWN: Now, we got two...
NAYDER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) toured Las Vegas.
BROWN: ... two minutes.
NAYDER: OK.
BROWN: Twirl something else here.
NAYDER: "The "Annoying Music Show"...
BROWN: That was the Brady Bunch.
NAYDER: ... we treat "The Annoying Music Show" seriously, and sometimes the best singers do the most annoying music. And we have actually one of the greatest tenors in the world, Placido Domingo, if I can cue him up here -- Now, you wouldn't think that he would do an annoying song, but we call this "Placido Domingo's Tribute to John Denver's Tribute to His Ex-Wife, Annie."
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "ANNIE'S SONG")
PLACIDO DOMINGO (singing): You fill up my senses like an (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
(END AUDIO CLIP)
NAYDER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
BROWN: I wonder if he regrets this today. And, of course, for our younger viewers, those are record albums.
OK, one more, quick.
NAYDER: I have an eight-track here somewhere.
BROWN: Give me another one. This -- we had two of the strangest career choices on the program tonight I've ever seen.
NAYDER: This is the number one song. Should eight-year-olds -- and actually it ties into the Olympics in Salt Lake City. Should eight-year-olds be doing Motown? I don't think so, unless they're Little Jimmy Osmond.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "MY GIRL")
JIMMY OSMOND (singing): ... what can make me feel this way?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
NAYDER: Now, don't go out, there's one note. Wait, hang on, hang on. Don't breathe.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
OSMOND: ... talking 'bout my girl...
(END AUDIO CLIP)
NAYDER: Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OSMOND: ... talking 'bout my girl, talking 'bout my girl...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Ah, just the way the Temptations did it.
Jim, thank you. That's a real Valentine's treat for us here. Nice to see you again.
NAYDER: Thanks, thank you. Let me be the first guest on NEWSNIGHT to say, Aaron, I love you.
BROWN: Thank you. You are, in fact, the first guest. We'll talk again. And...
NAYDER: No love back?
BROWN: No, not now.
Quickly now...
NAYDER: Happy Valentine's Day.
BROWN: Thank you, it's over.
One -- do we have time for this one final one from India? Valentine's Day was not exactly celebrated there by some people. Today in New Delhi, some Hindu nationalists demonstrated against the celebration of Valentine's Day. A group of several dozen members chanted slogans, tore up Valentines as a way of protesting Western influence in their country.
That's all. We'll see you tomorrow at 10:00. Thanks for joining us. Good night.
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