Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Mom Murder Trial Begins; Bush Visits Asia and Avoids Saying "Axis of Evil"
Aired February 18, 2002 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, NEWSNIGHT ANCHOR: And good evening again everyone. It's a holiday. I know that because I wore jeans to work. I wouldn't know it by the day's news.
Andrea Yates went on trial today for killing her five children. There's no doubt she did it and there is no doubt she was sick, a mental illness. But there is plenty of doubt whether the law will recognize her illness and treat her or simply punish her.
It is, in fact, very rare in this country that an insanity defense prevails. The law in most states it may sit next to impossible. The law is basically this. If you know what you did was wrong, you are well enough to be punished. Whatever your illness, whatever demons are alive in your brain, whatever your history, if you knew right from wrong, that's enough.
We've learned a lot about mental illness in the last 50 years or so, but in so many ways, we've done nothing with what we've learned. It is all too often still considered either a weakness or an excuse. A jury in Houston's going to have to decide if a woman with a long history of depression and hospitalizations and suicide attempts was insane enough, and the law will offer very little help.
On to the day's news, we begin with our whip around the world. We start in Tokyo. Senior White House Correspondent John King, traveling with the President across Asia, John, the headline for the day.
JOHN KING, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the President, if you will, in the neighborhood of the nations that would be most affected by a confrontation between the United States and North Korea.
No backing down at all from what Mr. Bush says is a critical principle, that the United States and its allies must confront nations developing weapons of mass destruction. But the President toning down the rhetoric dramatically so, no use at all on this trip yet of the phrase "axis of evil" -- Aaron.
BROWN: John, thank you, back with you shortly. The Yates case, as we said, is underway. Opening arguments, David Mattingly covering for us, David a headline from you please. DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, was it indeed murder or was it insanity? The prosecution today reminding the jury that Andrea Yates is to be presumed sane and responsible for her actions, the defense, however, arguing that Andrea Yates could be the victim of the cruelest form of mental illness -- Aaron.
BROWN: David, thank you, back with you shortly too. Quite a mix of things as we start this week off. We'll spend some time remembering one of the greats of broadcast journalist, Howard K. Smith. He was one of Murrow's boys, a singular voice in the business. Tonight, we'll talk about the man and his career with his son. Jack Smith will join us.
Also tonight, as Larry mentioned, the ultimate Dallas Maverick, the guy who owns the Mavs, Mark Cuban. Cuban does what we all hope we'd do if we had a billion dollars. He's having a ball and giving the NBA fits, and giving the rest of us some things to think about.
And NEWSNIGHT tonight enters the battle over Miss America, some ugly things going on in the fight to save the pageant. One of our favorite guests, New York Times reporter Alex Suchinsky (ph) joins us to talk about that, all of that in the hour ahead.
We begin with the Yates trial and the central question for jurors, did Andrea Yates know right from wrong when she drowned her five children? In legal terms, was she insane? Not was the act insane. Most would agree that by almost any definition, it was. Or that it was heinous, or that the entire story is a tragedy, no one disputes that either. Five children are dead after all.
What the jury has to do is decide why and whether Andrea Yates should pay with her life for what she did. Here again, CNN's David Mattingly.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTINGLY (voice over): Sitting silently and almost motionless, Andrea Yates listened in court as the prosecution delivered an unflinching account of her crime.
JOSEPH OWMBY, PROSECUTOR: She called Noah into the bathroom, and put him in the water with Mary and drowned him. Then carried Mary and put Mary on the bed with the other three children that she had already drowned.
MATTINGLY: Facing execution or life in prison if convicted, Yates' future rests on one question. Did she know that what she was doing was wrong, when one by one she drowned her children in the family bathtub?
OWNBY: The carpet was soaked. The water is still standing, nine inches I believe, in the bathtub.
MATTINGLY: For the first time since her arrest last June, Andrea Yates appeared in court, not in scrubs or a tee shirt, but a dark gray outfit, looking more like the nurturing and loving mother the defense attorneys hope to portray, a mother tragically psychotic, driven by extreme mental illness to kill her five children. The defense revealing, Yates is on daily doses of anti-psychotic medication.
GEORGE PARNHAM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This woman, on the scale of one to ten, ten being the most severe, that she was off the chart.
MATTINGLY: Outside Houston's Harris County Courthouse, a crush of cameras as husband, Rusty Yates, and Andrea's family enter for opening statements, inside a full courtroom.
Potentially damaging testimony to come from 9-1-1 dispatchers. Why did Yates call for police unless she knew her actions were wrong? Also, a confession, in which Yates details how she killed her children.
OWMBY: She told him that she wasn't mad at the children, but she killed them because they weren't developing correctly and she was a bad mother.
MATTINGLY: The key to Yates' defense, hundreds of pages of medical documents and expert testimony chronicling years of severe mental illness, two suicide attempts, delusions, postpartum depression, and psychosis, called by the defense, the cruelest and most severe of mental illnesses.
PARNHAM: It takes the very nature and essence of motherhood to nurture, protect, to love, and changes the reality.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MATTINGLY (on camera): Expect this trial to take about three weeks, and the reason for that is right here. These are the witness lists, lists of over 60 names of people who could be called to the stand to testify, 42 witnesses alone for the defense, Aaron, half of those doctors.
BROWN: Well, that's what it's going to come down to, to a great degree we assume is a battle over the doctors, whose doctors the jury believes. The prosecution obviously has its doctors as well.
MATTINGLY: That's true and people are saying it will come down to who the jury decides to listen to most, the experts on one side or the other. The defense hopes to prove that Andrea Yates did not know what she was doing, and hopes that this mountain of medical testimony will be enough to do that.
BROWN: Tell me, David, the makeup of the jury as best you can figure it out.
MATTINGLY: Eight women, four men, and according to jury analysts, jury experts, they are saying that the defense should be happy because during questioning when the jury was selected, that there were several jurors, including two who have psychology degrees, who appeared open to the idea of an insanity defense. So that will go a long way in helping the defense prove that Andrea Yates did not know what she was doing and could be innocent. BROWN: David, thank you. It's going to be a sad and fascinating three, four-week trial. Thank you very much, David Mattingly tonight, eight women and four men on that jury.
Our next story comes from northern Georgia, not too far from the Tennessee border, three miles away from the site of the second bloodiest battle of the Civil War.
The scene tonight in Noble, Georgia not quite that grim but nearly so, at least 139 bodies recovered and the number expected to rise. They were scattered around a crematory. Tri-State was the name of the company.
Some were buried, some loaded into vaults designed to hold a single casket. Others seemed to have been dumped just willy-nilly. Investigators compare the scene to Ground Zero.
There is no sign of foul play. The bodies got there legitimately. They just never got cremated, and apparently have been piling up for years. Area funeral homes say about 350 bodies have been sent to Tri-State since 1969.
The man you just saw, the one man in this case, Brent Marsh, has been charged in connection with this, with a felony Theft by Deception, 16 counts. That was the body count when he was first arrested last week.
On to other news now, President Bush is in Japan tonight, the first stop on a tour of Asia that was originally planned for last fall, in October. Plans of course changed on the 11th of September, and so did the agenda. And since the State of the Union Address, so has the President's rhetoric.
Now long from now, the President will look out over the border with North Korea, a member of what he called the "axis of evil." Today, his view was of Tokyo, and that's where we find CNN's John King. John, good evening.
KING: Good evening to you, Aaron. Good morning from Tokyo. In many ways, this trip will flash back to the early days of the administration, the Bush Administration when many allies worried Mr. Bush had a go-it-alone approach. He was not consulting them about international policy.
Here in Japan, the Prime Minister said he had a "very frank conversation" with Mr. Bush about that line, "axis of evil," linking North Korea with Iran and Iraq. Mr. Bush talking about potential future fronts in the War on Terrorism.
Today, the main event for Mr. Bush here in Tokyo was a speech to the Japanese Parliament, the Diet it is called. Much of that speech dedicated to trying to help the Prime Minister get his economic reform agenda through the Parliament, the legislature here in Japan.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) KING (voice over): But Mr. Bush did touch on the War on Terrorism, and he clearly had North Korea in mind when he said it was critical that the United States and Japan work closely together as the war moves beyond Afghanistan.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We seek a peaceful region where no power or coalition of powers endangers the security or freedom of other nations, where military force is not used to resolve political disputes.
We seek a peaceful region where the proliferation of missiles and weapons of mass destruction do not threaten humanity.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING (on camera): Note the change in tone though, no use at all of the phrase "axis of evil" on this trip. Mr. Bush making clear in a news conference yesterday diplomacy was his first option, that he hoped to resolve all issues peacefully.
Next stop South Korea. The President will face even more questions there. The government of President Kim Dae-Jung has staked its legacy on a so-called Sunshine Policy of reconciliation with the North.
The Ambassador to the United States from South Korea said the President's line "axis of evil" was "escalation rhetoric" in his view, rhetoric that could undermine the Sunshine Policy in South Korea.
Many now raising doubts of whether the North will enter into more dialog with the South or new dialog with the United States essentially sitting down with an administration that, in the view of North Korea, has already prejudged it by labeling it evil. Aaron.
BROWN: John, let's talk a bit about the rest of the trip. We covered the Korea part which, perhaps not as important as the Japanese component. I suspect it will be awfully interesting. And then, on to where?
KING: On to China for a summit in Beijing with President Jiang Zemin of China, that initially scheduled as well for a few months ago. Mr. Bush on that trip certainly wants to discuss the War on Terrorism, will pay tribute to the Chinese for helping out with intelligence gathering and sharing in the War on Terrorism.
But the President also has served notice at every stop on this trip that he will have blunt and what he calls candid conversations with the Chinese about human rights, about religious freedoms. Mr. Bush casting it this way, he says those are the very values that he believes came under attack on September 11th, and that wherever he travels in the world, he will promote them. Aaron.
BROWN: He was in China not that long ago. Has anything changed there from either the President's view or the Chinese view that makes that stop more noteworthy than it might otherwise have been? KING: Well certainly we are now a few months closer to the succession in China. The Vice Premier Hu Jintao is believed to be the man who will succeed Jiang Zemin. Everyone believes that both sides, both the Chinese and the United States, could have issues that they raised up to the level of a diplomatic fight.
Both governments being very polite about this summit, despite those differences, because both sides, the Chinese number one want calm in all their international relations as they deal with joining the World Trade Organization with the succession of power in Beijing. They want calm as they deal with their own internal issues.
Mr. Bush clearly waiting for the next Chinese leader, although again, they say he will candidly raise human rights issues. But he wants to thank the Chinese as well for their help in the War on Terrorism, perhaps hold that out as an example. Remember, this is a President who rejects the strategic partnership Bill Clinton saw with the Chinese, but he says he does want candid and productive relations.
BROWN: John, thank you. Senior White House Correspondent John King in Tokyo, as the President and John make their way across Asia. Back home, the first week of federal responsibility over airline security got off to a shaky start, two scares. At least one of them though authorities say the new system is working.
The terminal at LAX, Los Angeles International, was shut down for an hour this morning. It happened after security stopped a man trying to get through a checkpoint with what looked like an M-80 in his bag. It turned out to be a noisemaker used scaring away birds. The man carrying it, who claims to be an off-duty National Guardsman was detained. Authorities will decide tomorrow whether to file charges.
And at New York's LaGuardia Airport, a man got through a checkpoint without having a bag properly screened. He managed to make it on to his flight. The flight took off. When authorities discovered the breach, back came the plane and the man and everyone else on board the flight to Cleveland went through security again.
One other note here, mechanics have reached a tentative contract agreement with United Airlines, less than two days before a planned strike that would have grounded the airline. The deal calls for a raise and a sizable one, 37 percent, the first raise since 1994.
In return, it provides futures give backs to help United restructure, the details on that to be negotiated later. United has real financial problems, and racked up more than $2 billion in losses last year alone.
We have a lot more to take care of tonight, including the newest front in America's New War. Green Berets have arrived in the Philippines. We'll look at their mission, that and more when NEWSNIGHT continues on a Monday from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Ever since the war began, the question has been after Afghanistan, what next? The talk says Iraq. Boots on the ground say otherwise. The first of 160 U.S. Green Berets have landed on a jungle island in the southern part of the Philippines. They arrived to help the Philippine government wage war against a guerrilla insurgency that is linked to al Qaeda.
There is a tendency among those of us in the news business to see shadows of Vietnam, just about every time American troops land anywhere, and surely the jungles of the Philippines lend themselves to that analogy.
But Vietnam wasn't one decision. The die wasn't cast when the first advisers landed. It took a lot of steps and missteps to get to failure. So we'll leave the analogies and the worries to later in the game. For now, it's enough to say there is dangerous work ahead. Here's CNN's Maria Ressa.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARIA RESSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Residents around this Philippine base say they've never seen helicopters this large, used to take the first of 160 U.S. Special Forces to Basilan. There they will take part in war games using live bullets against a real enemy, the al Qaeda link, Abu Sayyaf.
Six hundred sixty U.S. troops will take part in the six-month exercise. Crack commando units unable to speak openly to their families and friends about exactly where they are or what they're doing. Major Larry Redmon missed his first wedding anniversary and expects to miss the birth of his first son.
MAJOR LARRY REDMON, U.S. GREEN BERET: This wouldn't be the first time that American troops have been faced with these situations, but we're going to be with our Philippine counterparts, and I'm confident they're going to take care of us.
RESSA: But that's not so easy on Basilan. This is the terrain, a guerrilla war in foliage so thick you can't see three feet in front of you. When soldiers here see men with guns, they fire. Otherwise they say, they run the risk of being ambushed.
These Filipino marines thought they attacked the Abu Sayyaf. The group turned out to be civilian volunteers, armed by the military. Twenty-six year old Manching Constancio (ph) was killed in friendly fire.
ANNURAH ALIH, BASILAN RESIDENT (through interpreter): I can't accept what they've done. We're going to hunt them down, kill them all. All of them killed my son.
RESSA: That is the cycle of violence, which has spiraled out of control on Basilan. Most residents here say they hope the Americans can help.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through interpreter): Our Filipino soldiers lack equipment and the Americans can teach them fighting tricks.
RESSA: But American troops may be stepping into more than they bargained for.
RESSA (on camera): According to the Philippine Constitution, U.S. troops can only fire in self-defense. That may be necessary. Their very presence could shift the nature of conflict on the island, making them the targets of the many armed groups there. Maria Ressa, CNN, Zamboanga City, the Philippines.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: American Lori Berenson saw her hopes for a quick release from a Peruvian prison dashed today. That country's Supreme Court upheld her 20-year sentence for conspiring with terrorists. Ms. Berenson says she is innocent, that she was tried under an unconstitutional law, and that her human rights have been violated.
Her parents have appealed to President Bush to intervene on her behalf, and to Peruvian President Alejandro Toledo to pardon her, and pardon it now seems is the best option left, if not the only one.
Lori's parents are with us tonight. Mark and Rhoda Berenson, nice to see you both.
MARK BERENSON: Thank you.
RHODA BERENSON: Thank you.
BROWN: This was a difficult day Mrs. Berenson, wasn't it?
R. BERENSON: Well, we weren't surprised. We've had six years dealing with the Peruvian justice system, and this is exactly what we expected, a rubber stamp of the previous conviction and then sentence. And so it wasn't a surprise. We are optimistic still for the future. We've always been optimistic, and as you said Lori is innocent. We know that and we will persevere.
BROWN: You say Lori's innocent. Is she innocent of the charges, as opposed to absolutely and totally innocent? Was she there? Was she doing something she shouldn't have been doing?
M. BERENSON: No. She was a journalist and a human rights activist. She went to Peru because she had read about the wonderful changes that have occurred in that country, as the result of now disposed, despicable dictator Alberto Fujimori, who led Peru through over 11 years illegally since he had Japanese citizenship and should never have been allowed to be Peru's President.
Lori found the country as we found it, a horror, where there was such poverty, where you see children age two or three begging in the streets with older sisters and brothers holding them in their arms at midnight on major highways. This isn't the way for a child to grow up, and you want to take each of these children home with you.
BROWN: Are you 100 percent sure she was doing nothing she shouldn't have been doing?
M. BERENSON: Absolutely sure. BROWN: OK. Have you gotten any sign from the administration how the administration views this?
M. BERENSON: Yes, we have. President Bush spoke with President elect Toledo on 27 June of last year, and urged President Toledo to look into this case, and look for humanitarian resolutions to it, and President Toledo said that when this day, today, finally occurs, he then has an option as president of Peru to look for pardon clemency.
And we were just simply saying that Lori has been in prison six years and three months, has not committed a crime, has been absolved of all acts of violence or terrorism. She was convicted by a law, which has been condemned internationally by our State Department, by United Nations, by the OAS, by every human rights group.
The sentence is totally disproportionate to anything she was even accused of, and Lori has suffered enough. She has permanent health damage, and we would hope that President Toledo will look at that in terms of a pardon.
BROWN: Do you worry, Mrs. Berenson, that in whatever the President may have said last summer, it's made more complicated by the events of September 11th, that the whole administration's attitude about terrorism has to be different and that includes how it relates to other countries who argue they were fighting terrorism too.
R. BERENSON: I think everything has become more complicated since September 11th, but we haven't seen or heard any signs from the State Department, from the administration to say that they're pulling back.
There was a sense that when the Bush Administration came in, both the President and Secretary of State Powell said, we know about the situation. We're going to see what we can do, and we have not gotten any sense from them that they were pulling back.
BROWN: When did you last see your daughter?
R. BERENSON: I saw her December 30th, and Mark saw her two or three weeks ago.
BROWN: How's she doing?
R. BERENSON: She always hangs in. She's incredibly strong.
BROWN: Yes.
M. BERENSON: She's been used and abused by the dictatorship of Fujimori. She has been sexually assaulted there, tear gassed, physically abused, and maintains tremendous courage and conviction, and why the wrongs, the wrongs against Lori and against thousands of Peruvians that have been caught up under laws that are barbaric and inhumane that need to be changed.
In fact, this morning, Lori started a hunger strike that has now spread nationally throughout Peru, protesting the lack of human rights that exist in the current government that shouldn't be there. The intermediate government -
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: This is the government you're looking towards for favorable resolution in this?
M. BERENSON: Sure. Yes.
R. BERENSON: Yes.
M. BERENSON: Yes, but human rights violations -
BROWN: I don't know.
M. BERENSON: Please, human rights violations are never correct anywhere in the world.
BROWN: I'm not arguing that point. I'm not. Honestly I'm not. But, I mean, you know exactly what I'm saying here.
R. BERENSON: Yes, but the times have gotten even rougher in the prisons and the prisoners are saying, you know, we're human beings too. And sadly over these years, we've learned to realize that the only thing prisoners can do is go on a hunger strike. They have no other means of expressing their extreme frustration when they're taken advantage of to such an extent.
BROWN: Just a couple seconds, quickly, is she in better shape today than she was in those days before the second trial, when she was in that awful prison up in the Andes?
R. BERENSON: Yes, definitely.
M. BERENSON: Sure.
R. BERENSON: Definitely.
M. BERENSON: That was the interim government, not the current government, and that's the problem. We want the current government to move forward in human rights, not to take a step back.
BROWN: Thank you both for coming in. I said to you earlier, it's unimaginable to be parents in these situations. I can't - none of us can imagine what it must be like. Thanks for joining us.
R. BERENSON: Thank you very much.
M. BERENSON: Thank you.
BROWN: One more quick item before we go to break here. You all just stay still for just a second. We waited until about 10:26 to tell you this story. Britain invaded Spain today. OK, it was a really quick invasion. It lasted about five minutes, but for NEWSNIGHT, that's good enough.
About 20 Royal Marines went a bit off course on Sunday morning in an exercise and stormed a Spanish beach near Gibraltar, and they were ready for action. They had mortars and SA-80 assault rifles. You know what they are.
The British military apologized, a spokesman delivering what has to be the understatement of the day, calling the incident "regrettable and embarrassing." Yes.
Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, what comes after Skate Gate. Oh no. We'll go back to Salt Lake City in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Well, I could tell you that our original plan was pretty much to ignore the Olympic Games, the theory being if you wanted to watch the Olympics, you'd watch them. If you didn't, you'd be here.
But events, as they often do, have a way of changing theories. They changed this one, and a little quip of mine last week didn't help either. So now, we've decided to embrace the Winter Olympic Games, hoping one day to be declared the Official Cable Newscast.
Until that happens, or until we can actually show you some pictures while there is still interest in the events, we thought we'd talk to Sports Illustrated's Steve Rushin who's been bopping around Salt Lake City on an expense account, soaking up the games and all the color. Steve, it's nice to see you.
STEVE RUSHIN, "SPORTS ILLUSTRATED": Nice to see you, Aaron.
BROWN: Are they still talking about skating? Is skating still the subject?
RUSHIN: People are only talking about it insofar as I think they're saying that they're sick of it. But in saying that, they're still talking about it. So yes, Skate Gate goes on here, but I think I hit the wall like a crash test dummy on that thing about three days ago.
BROWN: And are you talking about cynical reporters or are you talking about actual visitors to Salt Lake City?
RUSHIN: Well, most of the people I'm talking to are cynical reporters. But I think visitors to Salt Lake also, particularly after last night when they had the the photo op, which I thought was kind of silly where everybody got an award, kind of like at a high school baseball banquet or something. Everybody gets a gold medal. I think that wrapped it nicely for the IOC. And now they can move on and some of the other athletes can get attention here.
BROWN: I guess most people know that the Mormon church is enormously influential in Salt Lake, and that there was a battle in the church about whether to aggressively proselytize, which is something Mormons do, or not. How did that play out?
RUSHIN: Well, I think the Mormons have not been aggressively proselytizing. Every other religion and some non-religions in America and around the world, are here proselytizing. You can't walk a block without three people trying to convert you, and then the next guy trying to convert you back to whatever it is they're representing.
And interestingly, the other people you see on the street in equal numbers are ticket scalpers. And sometimes, when someone approaches you, you're not sure if they're trying to convert you or sell you a pair to ice dancing. And it can be dicey when someone approaches.
BROWN: Yes, that could be a little confusing, can't it?
RUSHIN: Yes.
BROWN: What is the...
RUSHIN: But that's the great thing.
BROWN: Go ahead.
RUSHIN: That's the great thing about America. It's God and commerce. You know, God and mammon, religion and commerce, those are the two great pillars of America. I don't want to sound like I'm complaining. I'm -- it's been enjoyable here. The walk and don't walk signs in downtown Salt Lake City make an electronic cuckoo clock sound. You're walking downtown and you hear, "Cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo." And it's hard to stay angry in a city where you're constantly hearing cuckoo clocks going off.
BROWN: Salt Lake's a great town. And people, you know, who haven't been there, may don't realize it. It is not necessarily the easiest town to get a drink in, if that's what you want. Have you found that to be true?
RUSHIN: I have found that to be true. And it hasn't been for a lack of trying, Aaron. I assure you. The last figure I saw, I think, were 8417 sports journalists in Salt Lake City, a place where the tap beer is 3-2 and they're not allowed to sell you a double scotch.
And you know, that's -- when you 8400 journalists in any one place, and you can't get a double scotch or a full strength beer, you know, you must be doing something right to keep those journalists happy, because that's the lifeblood of sports journalists, as you probably know.
BROWN: Well I've heard that, yes. 45 seconds or so. People having a good time there, visitors to Salt Lake seem to having a nice time?
RUSHIN: Yes, they do seem to be. There's very intense security. They're going through medal detectors and being wanded and having your pockets emptied every time you go into a venue. It's almost like an extended, you know, layover at Atlanta Airport or something.
But people have been very patient with it. People seem to realize they're checking some of their civil liberties at the door when they come here. That's the way it kind of has to be in this world now for an event like this. And people seem to be rolling with it, having a good time. And you know, I haven't heard too much complaining. And again, when you have 8,000 members of the press anywhere, you're not hearing too much complaining, somebody must be doing something right.
BROWN: Steve, it's good to see you again. Tough work. You managed to get it yet again. Steve Rushin of "Sports Illustrated."
RUSHIN: Somebody's got to do it.
BROWN: Yes, I know. It's your plight. Steve's in Salt Lake City, covering the Olympics for "Sports Illustrated" magazine. We're not done with the sports theme yet, though. As you can tell, our sports theme aren't exactly statistics and balls and bats.
Up next on NEWSNIGHT, the owner of the Dallas Mavericks, Mark Cuban. He's much more than that. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Since last week was pretty much devoted to the meaning of sports, perhaps we're a few days late with this, but what the heck. Mark Cuban is a true sports fan. He loves basketball. He goes to an awful lot of Dallas Mavericks games. And he gets great seats.
So would you, if you owned the team. And Mr. Cuban does. He bought the Mavs with a small piece of more than a billion dollars he received when his Internet company was bought out. Since then, he's turned the Mavericks into a first rate franchise and turned the NBA on him. He sort of become a royal pain in the butt. Kind of like us, doesn't it seem?
Anyway, he joins us from Dallas tonight. It's nice to see you.
MARK CUBAN, OWNER DALLAS MAVERICKS: Nice to be here.
BROWN: Let me ask an easy one to start. What's wrong with sports?
CUBAN: Poor marketing. Poor coverage. I think the sports themselves are great, but you got to look at how they're being covered. You know, if you look just at the NBA and what's coming out of the NBA, 90 percent of the press releases are negative. Someone's suspended, someone's in trouble, somebody didn't do this or that or a franchise is moving.
But when you talk to people at the Games, everybody's having a great time. It's like we were talking to the folks at the Olympics. Everybody was having fun. Yet, you know, the nature of coverage, as you know, is to try to find the missing links and the pieces that create controversy or interest. And that's usually not the positive stories.
BROWN: Well, I agree. And I don't want to pick a fight over this, but I think it was you who said these press releases come out. So the damage in that regard is being done, not by the reporters reporting, but by the team sending out press releases.
CUBAN: No. Yes, self infliction is a huge problem with the NBA. You know, with all the fines I've received, I've said to them, look, if you really want to punish me, you know, don't put out a press release. Just find me and don't tell anybody. But if you do put out a press release, I'm going to spin it my advantage. It's just a concept they can't understand.
BROWN: Do you think the whole question of salaries, and what athletes make, and how much it costs now to go to ball games, all the rest of that is oversold as a problem with sports these days?
CUBAN: Absolutely, positively. You know, part of the substance, if you will, to define the fact that tickets are overpriced. They use an average ticket price. The problem is there's no such thing as an average ticket.
At the Mavericks, we have seats that cost $8, but we also have seats that cost $2000. How do you average that out? But again, we do an awful job of marketing the fact that we are great entertainment value. You know, and I think it's our own fault.
BROWN: You must be having the time of your life. I've said at the beginning of the program that you seem to be doing what all of us hope we do, if we had a billion dollars in our pocket, which is doing the things that long wanted to do and having a great time doing them.
CUBAN: Oh, absolutely. You know, my biggest fear is that 50 years, as I look back and go into the would have, should have, could have phase. And I'm just not going to let myself do that. I'm the luckiest guy in the world. I don't even let my friends pinch me. And I'm just trying to experience as much as I possibly can, because you know, lightning had to hit somebody. And somebody had to get lucky. I'm just glad it was me.
BROWN: What is the deal with you and referees and the NBA? Why can't you stay silent? And why can't they stop taking money out of your pocket?
CUBAN: Well, it's not so much the referee. I mean, they have a tough job. But I look at the management of the NBA. And I mean, if the NBA was running the British Navy, they'd be invading Spain everyday.
You know, it's just not well run. It's just not well organized. You know, they don't have the perception of what can we do to improve everyday.
You know, just the fact that we're talking about whether or not professional sports has a problem, whether or not there is a perception of over pricing of athletes and tickets, means we're not doing a good job of marketing.
You know, we're an entertainment business. And we have to work hard everyday to answer the question what are you going to do tonight and have it be an NBA answer. Unfortunately, the NBA just has the approach that people are going to come to us. And it's a given that we're going to be the center of attention and the center of people's pocketbooks.
And to me, the fact that we're not aggressive in marketing. We're not aggressive in trying to optimize how the business is run. The refereeing is just a symptom. If you're doing that wrong, you're doing marketing wrong. You know, all the things need to be corrected, yet nothing's being done. And when I speak up, the most visible topic in the media typically happens to be officiating.
BROWN: The -- wait, I want to show piece of video here. And then we'll come back to some. You did some referring not long ago, right?
Tell me how that happened?
CUBAN: Well, after I got fined with the dairy Queen thing, the Harlem Globetrotters were in town in Dallas. And you know, I've been a huge Harlem Globetrotter plan since I was a little kid. And they asked me if I wanted to referee a game. And of course, I did it. You know? And I was a kid in the candy store, being able to be out there on the show with the Harlem Globetrotters, you know, taking part in some of their routines.
But at the same time, about half of their games serious, believe it or not. And so, I got to officiate. So I'm called some fouls, get razzed a little bit. It wasn't so touch, but it was a lot of fun.
BROWN: Do you think some of your problems with the NBA are generational -- you're what, 41, 42-years, whatever. And they're not, basically. Do you think that's private?
BROWN: Yeah, I do think it is part of it. You know, call me part of the Internet generation, where you know, the old I have a need for speed approach, where you try to fix your problems today, as approached to the old plotting, you know, congregational style, where everything has to happen during a meeting. And there's only two meetings a year.
And definitely has something to do with it. David will come out and tell you that I work at Internet speed, and he works at MBA speed. And he doesn't think that's a problem. And I do.
BROWN: And do you think, when they're not telling you what you jerk you are, that actually they are in fact listening to some of the things you have to say.
CUBAN: Yeah, it's interesting. The things I get fined about usually end up being changed. If I don't get fined over them, they don't end up setting change.
A perfect example is last here, I made a big to do about how the clocks were kept in playoff games. We don't use independent scorekeepers. And they just local people to keep track. Well, after And there's all kind of problems. Yet there's, you know, tens of millions of dollars at stake. So I made a big stink abut that. This year, they changed it. Now we're going to use independent scorekeepers. I made a stink recently about flagrant fouls and how people were at risk. Now they've, you know, increased the number of fouls that are being called. They've really become more vigilant in how they approach the game.
So it's unfortunate that it cost me so much money to do it, but in the bigger scheme fo things, I think it's a valid business expense. And it's turning out to be a worthwhile business expense as well.
BROWN: Nice to talk to you.
CUBAN: Oh, it's a pleasure.
BROWN: As I said earlier, I think we all hope if we had your kind of money, we'd be having as much as you are. It wouldn't be a burden at all. It's nice to meet you. Mark Cuban in Dallas.
CUBAN: Pleasure's mine.
BROWN: Thank you. Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, you can tell it's a holiday, can't you. A battle over a beauty pageant, but not just any beauty pageant, the beauthy pageant, Miss America. Alex Kuczynski from "The New York Times" will walk us through this controversy when NEWSNIGHT continues on Monday.
(COMMERCIAL)
BROWN: We're going to look now at a treasured American institution, struggling to find its way in the 21st century. OK, actually it's a lot less serious than that, but it is a whole lot more interesting. We're talking about Miss America which started in 1921, eight women in knee length swim suits.
The pageant hasn't done too well in recent years, not bringing in enough viewers on TV or revenue. And the man running the Miss America organization, that is to say the man running the Miss America organization has caused an uproar among state pageant directors with some of his ideas, among them creating a Miss America slot machine.
I just find that funny. Side stories even better. The reigning Miss America has complained in public about how the organization is treating her. Not a bad story for Alex Kuczynski and "The New York Times." And she wrote about it over the weekend. And she's with us tonight. Nice to see you.
ALEX KUCZYNSKI, "NEW YORK TIME": Hi.
BROWN: OK, take 30 seconds and explain what this is about, the two sides in this?
KUCZYNSKI: State pageant directors, many of them former beauty queens themselves, who have volunteered for, on average, 25 years apiece to bring their state beauty queens to the national tourne of beauty, if you will. On the other side, the third director of the Miss America organization, which is a not...
BROWN: Not for profit.
KUCZYNSKI: Not for profit group.
BROWN: Yes. And they're living up to that part pretty well.
KUCZYNSKI: That's totally true. That's totally right. And they now have a former casino executive, who's in there trying to you know, razzle, dazzle these folks into the 21st century. They're not having any part of it.
BROWN: Now is the problem that at some level, I want to say this really gently.
KUCZYNSKI: Yes, be careful.
BROWN: I know. That there is something slightly anacronistic about beauty pageants?
KUCZYNSKI: Well, I think the big problem here is that this is a -- it's a competition that purports to reward intellectual achievement by giving out academic scholarships, but the ratings always spike during the swimsuit section.
BROWN: Right.
KUCZYNSKI: So that's a nightmare and that's a drag and that's a really big image problem for the pageant as a whole. So I totally agree with you on that.
BROWN: Yes, not that that was my opinion, Lord knows. So this new director, the third in what, four years, I think?
KUCZYNSKI: The third in four years.
BROWN: He wants to spice this up a little bit. There's the slot machines, there's more.
KUCZYNSKI: There's the slot machines. He might move to it Vegas. Holy smokes. You know, the guy says look, I can sell the location of this pageant. It's just another license to bring in money with which I can dole out more scholarships. But you know, the old school, i.e. the former beauty queens and state pageant directors say no, no, Atlantic City is where we've been since 1921. We must stay. We cannot change.
But again, this is a group of people who said we don't accept two piece bathing suits until five years ago.
BROWN: And now the reigning Miss America has her issues or her family has her issues. It's a little hard to tell.
KUCZYNSKI: It's like an opera, OK? She's on this side saying -- she calls her parents, says I'm not getting enough public appearances. They sent me a bill for my tailoring. They sent me a bill for my coronation party at the Taj Mahal Casino in Atlantic City. Her parents sit down and write an eight page letter to Bob Renacin (ph), the chief executive of the organization. It is somehow leaked to the press. It's all over the place. And suddenly, there are headlines saying Miss America is whining about her title. So that's a sort of fascinating -- the two stories ride side by side next to each other.
BROWN: Half a minute or so. Where's this going, do you think?
KUCZYNSKI: I think that the Miss America pageant is going to radically transform itself in the next two years.
BROWN: Two years.
KUCZYNSKI: I would say in two years, it might not even be in Atlantic City. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw it at an Indian casino in Connecticut or Vegas.
BROWN: I mean, it's one casino town or another.
KUCZYNSKI: Yes, but...
BROWN: I realize one has history.
KUCZYNSKI: Yes, but which casino town has the bucks, you know?
BROWN: Yes.
KUCZYNSKI: And in the end, this is, you know, about money. As much as it likes to say it's not.
BROWN: I went to one once.
KUCZYNSKI: Oh, God.
BROWN: I was in the service.
KUCZYNSKI: I'd like to go, but they probably won't invite me.
BROWN: Well, I'm sure they won't invite me back either now. Thank you. It's good to see you. KUCZYNSKI: Thanks.
BROWN: In a moment, we'll remember Howard K. Smith. This is NEWSNIGHT in New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Finally from us tonight, we note the passing of newsman Howard K. Smith. Mr. Smith died on Friday at his home outside Washington, D.C. He was 87.
Howard K. Smith back then, a broadcaster who could have a middle initial, helped create the medium you're watching now. After that, he did his best to make it better. It was therefore much of what we call history. And in so many words, and in so perfectly few, he brought the rest of us along for the ride. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): He was a radio guy first. Most everyone in his generation was. But in 1941, a year after CBS News hired him, when he wasn't much more than a kid and TV was an infant, Howard K. Smith became one of Murrow's boys.
On radio and fledgling TV, they covered the war from Europe, Smith in Germany. And all of them became legends. For nearly two decades, Howard K. Smith covered Europe and the Middle East. And then in 1957, this child of Louisiana came to Washington to do commentaries on the CBS Evening News. Thoughtful and respected, he made broadcast history one night in 1960.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to rules set by the candidates themselves, each man shall make an opening statement of approximately eight minutes duration and...
BROWN: He was the moderator of the first Kennedy-Nixon debate, the first of its kind, and in some ways, still the most memorable candidate debate ever.
JOHN F. KENNEDY: What you want, what you want this country to be, what you want to do with the future.
BROWN: There are many stories you can tell about who Howard K. Smith was. We like this one best. In 1961, as the civil rights movement was heating up, Smith traveled to Birmingham, Alabama to do a documentary. He wanted to end the piece with a famous quote from Edmund Burke. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Nervous CBS executives worried about their affiliates in the south and they pulled the quote as being opinion. Smith, who had a stubborn streak, quit. Just like that.
HOWARD K. SMITH: ABC's John Castle is with Senator McCarthy at his headquarters in Los Angeles.
BROWN: He landed at ABC News, which wasn't much in those days. Among his assignments, the Cuban missile crisis. By 1969, he was the anchor at ABC, sitting alongside another CBS refugee, Harry Reasoner. And he held the job until '75. He did commentaries, was a hawk on Vietnam. But clearly missed the anchor job. And so, in 1979 not especially happy with the way the network used him, Howard K. Smith resigned.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Welcome back everyone. Developments to report.
BROWN: With its fancy graphics and its 24-hour-a day coverage, it's ratings mania. TV has changed enormously.
It often misses what Mr. Smith delivered each day of his professional life, a vision of the story. A simple way of telling it. A clear and direct voice. TV misses Howard K. Smith, who died at 87.
(END VIDEOTAPE) Howard K. Smith was one of those people I wished I had met. I would have said, "Thank you." I worked with his second Jack for a while. And tonight, I'll say thanks to him for joining us to talk about his dad for a bit.
Jack, it's nice to see you.
JACK SMITH: Aaron, it's great to be here.
BROWN: Thank you. First our condolences, of course.
SMITH: Thank you.
BROWN: What did your dad, if you asked your dad what the great story of his life was, what would he have answered?
SMITH: Probably World War II. The, sort of, the great classic fight, good against evil. If we lost World War II, we would be fundamentally different, a different world today.
BROWN: And how did he see Vietnam, and as I recall the story, he came to Vietnam while you were serving in Vietnam. How did he see that in the history of his country?
SMITH: He saw it pretty much as the people in the Johnson administration, who launched the war or who escalated it did. And as most people did in the early stages of the war, in terms of the sellout at Munich. We were fighting communism. An ally was in trouble. We had to help with all our might. And if we appeased the Communist in North Vietnam, then they would seize everything. And we would have to fight them in India, in Africa. And they would invade France, and so on. This was the view at the time.
BROWN: And later in his life, did his view on Vietnam change, or did he still feel strongly as time went on?
SMITH: Eventually, he was in favor of withdrawing because the nature of the war changed. When it became clear that the North Vietnamese while Communists were also managed, had managed to play the Chinese against the Russians. The Chinese were involved in the cultural revolution. We were involved in a taunt with the Russians. It came to resemble more of a civil war, I think, than when we weren't winning. And when it was tearing our country apart, we really had no other option but to withdraw.
BROWN: Jack, we got about a minute here. Tell me what your dad thought of television news as it's done these days?
SMITH: A little bit too much show biz, as you sort of hinted at. And also, he always felt that there was a fundamental clash between money and news. A small family owned newspaper or a newspaper that gets all of its income from publishing news is one thing. But a news division that is subsumed in an ever larger through mergers, and ever larger entertainment conglomerate, there eventually gets to be a clash of values. BROWN: Did he -- do you know if he watched much coverage of September 11, and I'm curious not as it relates obviously to me or any individual, but what he thought of the coverage of that day?
SMITH: I didn't speak specifically to him. But the pictures, the pictures told the story. And television, at that time, was at its dramatic best.
BROWN: He -- did he appreciate, I assume he did, his pioneering role in a business that's become the most powerful medium out there?
SMITH: Yes, he did.
BROWN: Yes.
SMITH: No, I think he appreciated it. When I got my job at ABC, my mother at the time, CBS was still the Tiffany Network back then. And my mother said, "Oh, too bad it wasn't CBS." And my father said too bad it was in broadcast news.
BROWN: Last question, I think. Tell me what the K. stood for?
SMITH: Kingsbury. The Smiths and the Kingsburys were, in ancient times in the south owned plantations that were next to each other. And they used to intermarry. And so, the Kingsburys and the Smiths inter-married. I'm Cokey Roberts' distant cousin, by the way, through my father.
BROWN: As you know, he was a hell of a reporter. And those of us who are far younger have benefited enormously from his experiences and his hard work. It's nice to see you. Thank you, Jack.
SMITH: Nice to be here. Thank you.
BROWN: And thank all of you. We'll see you tomorrow at 10:00. Good night for all of us.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
