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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Bush Visits Korean DMZ and Challenges North to Become Free; Dog Owner Trial Begins

Aired February 19, 2002 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again. I'm Aaron Brown. I promise you will not have to endure many more nights of me whining about trying to compete with the Olympics, but just give me one more quick one please.

Women's figure skating, maybe the best single sporting event there is. You can not have more tension than this, and that's with honest judging. So how bad is it? Well, Mr. Levenson (ph), that would be assistant Molly's father, informed his daughter this evening that he was settling in for a nice night in front of the TV watching the Winter Games.

Not only will he be missing a great program, but his daughter goes back on his payroll. She's off ours. We expect extended family loyalty around here.

Anyway, whether he's watching or not, we do have a program to do, and while they'll be not double lutz here, it does take some skill or perhaps luck to navigate our way through it.

After all, we have to dance our way around a couple of tragedies, a mystery or two, a magazine full of nearly naked women and one angry commentator, plus an endangered species, an unabashed liberal. Try doing that without falling.

We begin as we always do with the whip around the world. That brings us first to the Demilitarized Zone between North and South Korea and President Bush's visit to the region. Mike Chinoy is close by. Mike, a headline from you please.

MIKE CHINOY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, an important day for President Bush here visiting South Korea. A meeting with South Korea's President Kim Dae-jung to thrash out difference over how to deal with North Korea, followed by a visit here to the Demilitarized Zone to meet with some of the 37,000 U.S. troops stationed in South Korea who would be at the center of any new crisis on this divided peninsula -- Aaron.

BROWN: Mike, thanks, back to you shortly. Now to Los Angeles, one of the tragic stories on the menu tonight, the dog mauling case as it's become known. Thelma Gutierrez is working that story. Thelma, a headline from you please. THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, graphic and emotional opening statements today at a highly-publicized dog mauling trial, in which a San Francisco woman was attacked and killed. Jurors will have to decide if the dog's owners were criminally responsible for her death. We'll have the latest.

BROWN: Thank you, and a very mysterious case out of Memphis, questions of a possible, we underscore possible terrorist link to a woman's death there. Susan Candiotti has been working the story. Susan's in Washington tonight, a headline please.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron. This is a strange one. A woman, who the FBI says admitted selling driver's licenses, is killed in a car wreck. The timing is what makes it curious, a day before a court appearance. And something else is puzzling the FBI, the activities of the men charged with her in a document fraud case. Was there more to it than simple fraud? We'll explain.

BROWN: Susan, thank you, back with all of you shortly. Also tonight, the welfare debate is back with an intriguing twist. One hundred million a year to promote good marriage, that's an idea from the Bush Administration. Is that anyway to spend tax dollars?

The biggest selling issue of Sports Illustrated is on the newsstands, and there isn't much sport in it. Actually there's not much clothing in it either, as it turns out. The swimsuit issue is out and it caught Ann Taylor Fleming's eye. She'll join us later.

We'll also have some of those Olympic moments that have nothing to do with Michele Kwan. Who is she? Some wonderful local color from Jason Bellini, who's been working the streets of Salt Lake City.

And we'll talk with filmmaker and author Michael Moore. Maybe the best description we've heard of him goes like this "a hybrid of two Ralphs, Cramden and Nader with brilliant comic timing. He's got a new book out and some things to say. It's a full hour ahead.

We begin in South Korea. The President is there tonight, the second stop on his trip to East Asia. He's there to visit U.S. troops, to send a tough message to North Korea, and to do it while reassuring South Korea that in declaring the North a member of the "axis of evil" the United States isn't spoiling for a fight.

The President used that phrase tonight for the first time in this trip. He said it by way of explanation at a joint news conference, with the South Korean President Kim Dae-jung.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I love freedom. I understand the importance of freedom in people's lives. I'm troubled by a regime that tolerates starvation. I worry about a regime that is closed and not transparent.

I'm deeply concerned about the people of North Korea, and I believe that it is important for those of us who love freedom to stand strong for freedom and make it clear the benefits of freedom.

And that's exactly why I said what I said about the North Korean regime. I know what can happen when people are free. I see it right here in South Korea, and I'm passionate on the subject, and I believe so strongly in the rights of the individual that I, Mr. President, will continue to speak out.

Having said that, of course, as you and I discussed, we're more than willing to speak out publicly and speak out in private with the North Korean leadership, and again I wonder why they haven't taken up our offer.

BROWN: The President in South Korea tonight. Underscoring just how tense things are on the Korean peninsula, nearly 50 years after the Korean War ended, there is still no real peace, no formal peace between the two north and south.

North Korea remains a brutal, communist dictatorship, the last of its kind on the planet. It has an army of two million on paper at least, larger than the U.S. Army and facing that army, about 37,000 U.S. troops, many of them on the Demilitarized Zone that divides north and south, which is where we once again find CNN's Mike Chinoy. Mike, good evening to you.

CHINOY: Hello, Aaron. Well, Mr. Bush is following in the footsteps of virtually every American President of the last half century, coming here to the demilitarized zone to demonstrate his commitment to the 37,000 U.S. soldiers who are here.

North Korea is just two miles behind me, across the DMZ, and the debate about how best to deal with that difficult and secretive regime has dominated his visit here. The President in his remarks at the press conference, trying to reassure jittery South Korean leadership.

President Kim Dae-jung here has staked his whole tenure in office on engaging North Korea, seeking reconciliation. Mr. Bush walking a fine line, on the one hand trying to reemphasize his opposition to the ugly aspects of the North Korean regime, and his determination to block the expansion of weapons of mass destruction. At the same time, saying he does want to talk to the North Koreans.

In the past, the North Koreans had been sending signals that they'd been willing to discuss trading their weapons of mass destruction and nuclear program, their missile program in return for American concessions, but only in an atmosphere of an end to hostility and a reduction of tension.

Whether Mr. Bush's approach will prompt them to come to the negotiating table or hunker down and become even more hostile, is the question dominating people's minds here -- Aaron.

BROWN: Mike, we got about 40 seconds or so. Talk a little bit about life on the DMZ for the American troops there. Is it tense all the time or is it pretty much routine?

CHINOY: It's deceptive. The DMZ is very quiet. There's been no fighting of late. It is a kind of routine, but everybody knows that the possibility of an explosion is always there. But certainly by accident, there have been incidents in the past, and so while it looks very quiet, it feels very peaceful. It doesn't feel tense at all.

The prospect that something could happen to trigger hostilities remains something that all the American soldiers here think about. Aaron.

BROWN: Mike, thanks. Mike Chinoy at the DMZ, separating the two Koreas. Thank you. Now back home and the so-called dog mauling trial. When we first heard about this, the case of a dog that mauled a young San Francisco woman to death, there was sadness.

When we first heard from the two humans who own the dog, there was anger. A jury will decide if they're guilty of a crime. They're not charged with blaming the victim. And maybe there is some larger issue here or maybe it's just that the characters in this drama are interesting in and of themselves, and that is reason enough for us to cover.

Whatever the reasons, consider this please. There are some very graphic pictures in this report. Here again, CNN's Thelma Gutierrez.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GUTIERREZ (voice over): The prosecution described in shocking detail the gruesome death of 33-year-old Diane Whipple, details so disturbing that Whipple's domestic partner, Sharon Smith, actually left the courtroom.

JAMES HAMMER, DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY, SAN FRANCISCO: In the hallway was a naked woman from head to toe, with no clothing on her whatsoever, covered in blood, crawling.

GUTIERREZ: Graphic pictures of Whipple's ravaged body, with puncture wounds to her neck, breasts and buttocks were revealed for the first time. She was attacked by huge 100-pound Presa Canario dogs named Bane and Herra (ph) that have since been destroyed.

HAMMER: Diane Whipple was not the first victim of these dogs. She was the last victim of these dogs, of a long line of almost 30 prior warnings and incidents.

GUTIERREZ: Prosecutor James Hammer says he will prove Whipple's neighbors, Marjorie Knoller and her husband Robert Noel, were callous and indifferent to repeated warnings that their dogs were dangerous.

HAMMER: Jill Davis was pregnant, in the lobby of her own building, and one of the dogs, although on leash at that point, lunged out right at her stomach.

GUTIERREZ: The prosecution pointed out Mr. Noel spent three days in the hospital, after he nearly had his finger severed when his own dog attacked him, and that one of the dogs bit Whipple's hand in an earlier incident. HAMMER: The vet who saw these dogs sent a letter, and he'll testify a letter he'd never written before, but that he felt compelled to write it to give this warning saying, "they don't belong in the city. They're not right for the city. Think of that boy who was injured so, so badly." And do you know what the defendants did? They brought him anyhow.

GUTIERREZ: The defense attorney, Nedra Ruiz, says the couple rescues dogs that were abused and only cared for them while they nursed them back to health, and that Knoller tried everything to control the dogs the day of the attack.

NEDRA RUIZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Marjorie Knoller tried to save that woman's life with her own body.

GUTIERREZ: At one point, Ruiz threw herself on the ground to reenact for the jury how Knoller tried to shield Whipple's body from the frenzied animals.

RUIZ: No one is sorrier than, Marjorie Knoller could not save Ms. Whipple, that Marjorie Knoller who risked her life to try to save Ms. Whipple.

GUTIERREZ: It was at this point that Knoller, who had remained composed during the prosecutions opening statements, broke down in tears. But the prosecution says they will prove Knoller did little to stop the attack or anything to help Diane Whipple.

HAMMER: She never called 9-1-1. When the police arrived, Diane was crawling, trying to push herself up towards here apartment, unable to breathe, bleeding to death with one dog still loose. Marjorie was nowhere to be seen, and she didn't call 9-1-1.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GUTIERREZ (on camera): Marjorie Knoller is charged with Second Degree Murder, Involuntary Manslaughter, and Having a Dangerous Animal that killed a human being. Prosecutors are trying to make Knoller the first person convicted in California for the actions of the dog.

If found guilty of Second Degree Murder, she faces 15 years to life in prison. Knoller's husband, Robert Noel, is charged with Involuntary Manslaughter. He faces up to four years in prison. Both have pled not guilty to the charges. Aaron.

BROWN: Thelma, thank you. Thelma Gutierrez in Los Angeles for us tonight. For a few moments today, the Andrea Yates trial came to a stop, while lawyers argued over a piece of evidence, the sort of thing that happens quite often in trials, and it is likely to happen again in this one.

The question is what should the jury see? At issue today, pajamas Ms Yates' children were wearing when they died. The prosecution tried several times to put the pajamas into evidence. Each time the defense objected, saying they serve no purpose. They would only inflame the jury. Then things got a bit heated. Jurors were sent out. The argument went on. The judge ultimately ruled. The pajamas were presented into evidence. We have a lot more tonight. When we come back, should the government be in the business of spreading lies? The answer may not be as simple as you imagine.

We'll talk to David Gergen and more as NEWSNIGHT CONTINUES from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: -- al Qaeda, but the question is whether the Pentagon is going to go a controversial step further into what it now calls information warfare, providing foreign news media with possibly deceptive information.

A new 15-man office of strategic influence has been set up to look at such an operation. Public relations advisers have been hired. The job? To influence the hearts and minds of the opposition in the War on Terrorism. One technique, disguising the origin of information so it does not appear to come from the U.S. Government.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a step that if not carefully done might go over the line between generally accepted elements of warfare and really bordering on a kind of dishonesty that will hurt our credibility.

STARR: No decisions have been made to lie to foreign news media, according to senior Pentagon officials. But lying or deception has been part of information operations, although when it is done, it is classified and never publicly acknowledged. Still, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld says the Pentagon does not lie to reporters.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I suppose you never say never, but all I can say is I can not imagine a situation where we would be so unskillful that we would be in a position that we would have to do that to protect lives.

STARR: At the State Department, the spokesman also said lying was not part of the U.S. plan.

RICHARD BOUCHER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: We provide information. We provide accurate and truthful information.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

STARR (on camera): Deception on the battlefield has been a long held military tactic to defeat an enemy. The question now is whether deception in newspapers and television is a good idea. Even the most senior Pentagon officials are skeptical. Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.

BROWN: Well, we'll check the skepticism of our next guest. We're joined by David Gergen. Mr. Gergen has a ton of experience in government and media. He is currently a professor of public service at Harvard University Kennedy School of Government, and has written, "Eyewitness to Power" and David Gergen certainly has been that. He served a number of presidents in our lifetime. David, it's nice to see you.

DAVID GERGEN, PROFESSOR, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: It's good to see you, Aaron.

BROWN: Your first take on this. Propaganda in time of war makes some sense, dropping leaflets. It's a big stretch though when you start putting out lies to news organizations.

GERGEN: It is indeed, Aaron. I think, like everyone else, when I opened the "New York Times" today and saw that as the lead story, that the Pentagon was considering a plan which would include dissemination of disinformation or lies to the international news media.

It's a hair-brained scheme. It's a stupid thing and I will bet you that Donald Rumsfeld will kill it. Every cabinet secretary needs to keep a drawer in his desk with a file in it called "Damn Stupid Ideas" and this is exactly where Don Rumsfeld ought to put this idea, and lock it up so it never sees the light of day again.

BROWN: You know, I know you'll probably think me naive here, but when I read the story this morning, the first thought I had was, the American story does not need disinformation. It doesn't need lies. The American story is a terrific story, just tell it.

GERGEN: That's precisely right, and we do need to be more aggressive through the State Department and, you know, through other elements of government to talk about the fact that the last four times America has gone to war has been to protect Muslims, and we need to make sure people know that.

They need to understand how much money we pour into the Middle East. You know, more than half of our foreign assistance budget goes into the Middle East, much of it to places like Egypt and helps other Muslim countries. We have longstanding friends in the Middle East in places like Egypt and Jordan indeed in Saudi Arabia.

And, the Muslim faith is the fastest growing religion in the United States, and there's been a heartening rallying around of Muslims here in the United States since September 11th. There have been a few incidents, of course, but I think the American story is extremely positive. We ought to be proud of it and we don't need to tell the non-American story.

Now what bothers me the most about this, Aaron, is that there are lots and lots of people in this government who are breaking their backs every day to get the American story out. And when something like this appears in the press, it just fuels the belief in other nations, especially among our enemies, that we're lying in everything.

BROWN: Yes. GERGEN: And it darkens and tarnishes everything else we do. And you know the conspiracy theories as they exist in the Middle East. They all thought the Jews did this on September 11th, which of course is flat wrong. But that only allows them, it gives them credence to say, well of course we told you all along the Americans were lying.

BROWN: You know, when I wasn't being Pollyana-ish, I think I was being unduly cynical or may not, this morning because I wondered how did this idea get leaked and was it leaked out there so that people would shoot it down? You've had enough experience in government to know how these things happen. Is that a possibility?

GERGEN: I think that's absolutely what happened. It had all the fingerprints of someone wanting to get it out. It sounded like somebody in the military. There were two or three people quoted blindly in the story, high up in the Pentagon. One of them a clear military official, and my expectation or suspicion is that someone leaked it out as a trial balloon, knowing it would have a big thud and that would end it once and for all.

You know, we have a marvelous military and they ought to stick to fighting wars which they're terrific at. They ought to stay out of the information business, except when they do things like leaflets and other things, which are quite, you know, quite positive and worth doing.

But this is below the standards of the U.S. military and I believe, I will predict it's killed.

BROWN: I haven't heard many people say much good about it today, David

GERGEN: Well, they shouldn't. I mean, I think the incredible thing is it has gotten this far. It really suggests you've got some cowboys overt there, you know. And I think there might be members of Congress that say, is the Pentagon getting too much money. You know, it hurts the Pentagon up on the Hill and in other places when they've got offices and they're spending money like this.

We saw some of this in the Kuwait, in the Persian Gulf War. There was some misinformation that was put into the American press by American PR firms, and I think it really burns people when it was over. It's a really stupid way to play the game. Ultimately, you get caught. Ultimately, you look terrible and American is too good for this.

BROWN: David, it's good to talk to you.

GERGEN: OK, Aaron, thank you.

BROWN: Thank you. David Gergen joining us out of Boston tonight with his thoughts. Coming up, should the Federal Government use taxpayer money to promote marriage, at least good marriage?

It's a new take on the welfare debate and it's up next on NEWSNIGHT for Tuesday in New York. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A lot of evidence out there that marriage is healthy. Married men tend to live longer, tend to be happier than single men. We assume that's true of women too, but he study we saw dealt with men. I wonder how that happened.

There's also evidence, lots of it that children do better, which is not to say, of course, that single parents or same sex couple can't raise great kids. They do it all the time.

But marriage, at least good ones, have some advantages, and so the Bush Administration wants to spend $100 million, a lot of money even in Washington on promoting good marriage and helping welfare coupled say married.

Opponents say, among other things, that telling single mothers that the solution to their economic is. The husband is outrageous, though I will tell you it's a more complicated argument than that. Joining us to talk about the proposed program, the chief of the Bush Administration Welfare Program, Dr. Wade Horn and Isabel Sawhill, an expert on welfare at the Brookings Institution. Good evening to both of you.

DR. WADE HORN: Hi.

ISABELA SAWHILL, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: Hi.

BROWN: Dr. Horn, I guess you should take the first pass here. Take 20 seconds or so and just lay out what you want to do.

DR. WADE HORN: Well, what we ant to do is help couples who choose marriage for themselves, develop the skills and knowledge necessary to form and sustain health marriages. And we care about healthy marriages, because we care about children.

And as you mentioned, there are countess studies that demonstrate that when children grow up within the context of a healthy marriage, they do better than compared to children who do not.

And so, we care about marriage because we care about the well- being of children.

BROWN: And just let me add one more quick question on to that. Why is that the appropriate role of government here?

HORN: Well because I think, the government ought to care about the well-being of children. I mean after all, the welfare system came into being historically out of concern for dependent children, and wanted to, in fact, improve the well-being of those children.

And consequently I think what we want to do as Bush Administration, the President and the Secretary and I are interested in getting a focus on improving well-being of children when it comes to the next phase of welfare reform. And one way to do that is by helping those couples who have either already chosen marriage or are in the process of choosing marriage to form and sustain a healthy marriage.

BROWN: All right. Ms. Sawhill, I assume you're not against marriage and you're not going to argue that good marriage is a good place for kids. So, what's your concern here?

SAWHILL: Well let me say, first of all, that I really do agree that marriage is the best arrangement for children, and therefore, I support what we can do to encourage more people to get married and stay married before they have children.

My concern is with all the people who are having children at a very young age, probably much younger than when we think it would be a good idea for them to get married.

One-third of all children in the United States are born outside of marriage right now. That's a huge number, and half of those births outside of marriage start during the teenage years.

So I don't know that it's a really great solution to suggest that teenagers should be getting married to each other. They need to finish shl. They need to get a job. Then they need to look for a lifetime partner and think about having children.

BROWN: I want to take that back to Dr. Horn in a second, but I think you need to complete the thought in this sense. If were not encouraging them to get married, Ms. Sawhill, what - and you have $100 million to spend, where do you spend it?

SAWHILL: You spend it on helping them delay the whole idea of raising children until they're old enough to do so, and to be married and to support a family. And that needs to be when you're in your perhaps mid-20s is when most people who have successful family lives begin there families in a modern economy. So, I mean we need to invest in preventing that early pregnancies and births.

BROWN: Dr. Horn, do we really have many ideas about how to keep couples together anyway, or is the $100 million experiment.

DR. HORN: Well it is a demonstration authority. That is to say that we're trying to find innovative ways to support couples to form and sustain healthy marriages. I would say this, that I do agree with Bel, that I think it's quite important that we also urge teenagers not to become pregnant, not to have children when they're teenagers, to wait until they're in 20s.

But I would just add one additional thing, which is I think at the same time we're telling teenagers not to become pregnant and have babies or to father children as teenagers, we should tell them what they should wait for. And it seems to me that one of the things we should tell them is not just to wait until you're in your 20s, but to wait until you've formed a healthy marriage before you become a mother or a father.

BROWN: And we're going to spend a lot of money to see if that works, is basically the idea, correct?

HORN: Well you know, we're spending a lot of money to support non-marriage.

BROWN: Absolutely.

HORN: And so, it seems to us not unreasonable for us, at this stage in welfare reform, to just try a little innovative work here and there, to determine whether in fact we can fundamentally shift attitudes about marriage. But more importantly, helping those couples develop the skills so that when they do get married, that they in fact, form a healthy marriage, as opposed to an unhealthy one.

BROWN: Ms. Sawhill, I don't want to -- I don't think I need to play peacemaker here, because as I listened to the two of you, I'm not sure that you necessarily disagree, though you may have some question about, sort of, when intervention ought to begin.

SAWHILL: Well, I think it's a matter of emphasis. I really want to put the emphasis on youth, because I think that's when attitudes about marriage are formed. I think that's when people are most likely to listen to the kind of messages that Secretary Horn is talking about.

So I think we probably could agree, if we were focusing on young people and trying to change their expectations for the future. I think for older people, the people who are already on welfare, most of them are single mothers. Most of them have had several children outside of marriage. Some of them are divorced, but most of them are women who've never been married. And I'm not sure that we're going to be very successful in finding husbands for most of them.

BROWN: We're about to find out, I gather.

SAWHILL: Even assuming that they wanted to get married.

BROWN: Dr. Horn and Ms. Sawhill, thank you both for joining us. We'll keep an eye on this and see how it goes. Thank you.

And when NEWSNIGHT continues, a Memphis mystery. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

BROWN: In Tennessee tonight, one of those cases that holds fascination beyond the obvious. On the surface, it's an ordinary traffic fatality, or perhaps it's a suicide, or maybe it's a murder. But look at the details. Look at the way the victim died. Look at what she'd been up to. Look at the suspicions of some law enforcement officers. And you have something extraordinary. You also have something with far more questions than answers tonight.

Here again is CNN's Susan Candiotti.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The FBI is puzzled over the circumstances surrounding the death of Catherine Smith and those charged with her in a document fraud case. Could terrorism be involved?

PHIL THOMAS, FBI SPECIAL AGENT: We don't know exactly what we have here, to be quite frank. And we're looking at several different scenarios.

CANDIOTTI: Before her sudden death last week in a fiery car crash, the FBI says Smith admitted she sold Tennessee drivers' licenses at $1,000 a clip. Five men of Middle Eastern descent are charged with document fraud, three of them in the U.S. illegally.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is some mystery about her death. I'm not sure about it.

CANDIOTTI: Along with Smith's family, the FBI is looking for answers. The FBI says suspect Sakhera Hammad held a pass to do work on the World Trade Center less than a week before the September 11 attacks. Hamad's father calls it a simple coincidence.

PETER HAMMAD, FATHER OF SAKHERA HAMMAD: I trust him. And he could never do anything wrong because our family doesn't have a history of doing anything wrong at all.

CANDIOTTI: An attorney for Khalid Outllah, who allegedly arranged for the others to buy the licenses, denies the charges and any link to terrorism.

ANTHONY HELM, LAWYER FOR KHALID OUTLLAH: There is nothing there. Some of these people had connections with New York. That's as close terrorism as this case comes.

CANDIOTTI: Catherine Smith's co-defendants were in custody when she died, burned beyond recognition in a wreck the night before a court appearance on the fraud case. Witnesses report the inside of her car was engulfed in flames before it ran off the road into a pole. The tank and engine were not on fire. Investigators tell CNN Smith's clothes were covered with gasoline. They're looking for any signs of an explosion. Was it an accident, murder, or suicide?

JOE NUNN, TENNESSEE HIGHWAY PATROL: It leaves so many questions unanswered is the problem that we're having now. It's more than an ordinary accident that we might investigate.

CANDIOTTI (on camera): Lab results are expected soon that could solve the mystery surrounding Catherine Smith's crash. Suicide appears unlikely. As an FBI agent put it, it would be a gruesome way to go.

Susan Candiotti, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A late story out of Italy tonight. Italian police have arrested four Moroccans they say were holding large amounts of cyanide and maps of Rome, highlighting the location of the U.S. embassy. That story's coming out of the Italian news agency, ANSA, which is also quoting police sources as saying the Moroccans also had maps of Rome's complicated water system. At least two of the men arrested had been followed after three other Moroccans were arrested last week. Again, this out of Italy tonight.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, essayist Anne Taylor Fleming and her latest least favorite magazine, which hit the newstands today. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, you have to admit, even the name is a bit ridiculous. "The Sports Illustrated" swimsuit issue -- latest issue is out today. And the debate that services every year when it comes out has started again. And you can be sure that in next weeks issue of "Sports Illustrated," there will be letters to the editor complaining. There will be threats to cancel subscriptions. and the editors will laugh a bit, knowing as they do, it remains the biggest seller of the year.

I always thought it was just a natural rite of passage, something to bridge the gap between "National Geographic" and "Playboy."

Anne Taylor Fleming sees it as something more troubling. And she joins us from Los Angeles tonight.

Hello, Anne.

ANNE TAYLOR FLEMING, ESSAYIST, AUTHOR: Hi, Aaron.

BROWN: What's up here?

FLEMING: Well, at risk of sounding sort of prudish and prissy, this particular issue, which I assume you've looked at, is a little raunchier than usual and a little more soft pornish. You know, my feeling is that it's one thing for us as adults to be looking at it. If you are the mother of -- or some young daughter or somebody who's passionate about young women, you say, you know, what are they doing looking at these pictures?

These are idealized women. They are borderline anorexic, all of them. I mean, they are really skinny. And yet they have these huge, I mean, we can't stay for certain artificial breasts, but they certainly a lot of them look like that.

What's the message to young women? The message is, you know, that have to number one, starve yourself. And number two, stuff yourself with something unnatural in order to fill the idealized notion of beauty.

BROWN: All right.

FLEMING: And that's troubling to me.

BROWN: I understand that. I don't make light of that. A couple of quick thoughts on that. First of all, and the first thing you said, isn't the whole culture a bit more raunchy and soft pornish than it ever has been? And therefore, isn't it logical the magazine would be, too? And secondly, it's boys who see this magazine by and large. Girls don't read "Sports Illustrated," by and large.

FLEMING: Oh, sure we do. I mean, I have looked at this magazine like every woman I know, all the way through, Aaron. And I daresay, I don't know how old your daughter is, I know you have one.

BROWN: Yes.

FLEMING: That girls look at this stuff, too. But let's go back to the first issue. Sure, the culture is more, you know, pornographized. Do I like it? No. Do I like freedom for women? Do I think sexual expression for girls and boys is fine? Sure.

But this is something else. These images are really distorted, idealized versions of the female body. What worries me, in addtion, is what does say to young men. It says to young men, this is what girls are supposed to look like.

Well most girls don't look like this. And also, I think the message to boys is, you know, sex is something you do to something. It's voyeuristic. It's not something you do with somebody. And I think all that's troubling. Just because "Sports Illustrated" is part of a larger cultural trend, doesn't make me feel a whole lot better. I mean, I didn't --

BROWN: I --

FLEMING: Go ahead.

BROWN: No, that's a fair point. And this won't make you feel any better either in that regard, because -- and "Sports Illustrated: doesn't need me to defend it, by any means. But these images you're concerned about, and as a father I am too, literally are everywhere. They are in every ad. They are in every movie, they are on every TV program, except perhaps this one. They are everywhere. And -- but somehow this fuss always centers around the magazine.

FLEMING: Oh, you know, I'm happy to condemn. I'm one of the people that watch for this very reason, the "Playboy," "Fear Factor" part during the Super Bowl. You know, yes, they're everywhere. But that doesn't mean that as women who care passionately about, in particular young women, we shouldn't object.

And let me say, I don't want to get caught out on the prudish side of this. My point is not that all these images of nudity. That's not what bugs me. I would like women to have a wonderful, fleshy, voluptuous, joyous female experience. But this is a very sort of sex stereotype, cadaverous. These girls are cadaverous in this magazine. And yet with these, I believe, to my reasonably untutored eyes, fake breasts. I mean, that's not a good message.

BROWN: I'll buy all that. And we'll take one more look at the magazine and see. Thank you, Anne.

FLEMING: All right.

BROWN: As always, Anne Taylor Fleming in Los Angeles. We'll talk with Michael Moore in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, it's one of those moments I'm glad to be the anchor and not the chief executive. Actually I'm always glad to be the anchor and not the chief executive. Michael Moore is probably best known for his documentary, "Roger and Me," a guy from Flint, Michigan unhappy with the decline of his hometown, spent a lot of time really trying hard to get an interview with the head of General Motors, the company. They cut a lot of jobs back in Flint.

Moore's gone on to be a scathing critic of corporate America, how money corrupts politics, and generally, how the little guy always seems to get what the little guy always seems to get. His new book is called "Stupid White Men."

And Michael joins us now. It's nice to see you.

MICHAEL MOORE, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Thanks for having me here, Aaron.

BROWN: What ever happened to liberals?

MOORE: Oh, I think they're still here.

BROWN: Are they? I thought you were the only one left.

MOORE: Oh, no, I think it's the majority of the country, in fact. I don't think people call themselves liberals, but if you look at any of the polls, if you ask people how they feel about the environment, on women's issues, the majority of the country is pro- environment. They're pro-women's rights. They're pro-labor.

Last Labor Day, I saw a poll, 53 percent of the American public support labor unions. Go down the issues. They're very liberal on the issues. They don't like to vote for liberal leaders.

BROWN: Well, why is that then?

MOORE: Because it's almost an oxymoron, a liberal leader. Liberals are usually pretty wishy-washy and don't have a whole lot to -- I mean, the Republican leaders are -- these are people who like, you know, they believe in what they believe in. And they're not afraid of it. And the Democrats and liberals oftentimes are like, well I guess we could do that, you know.

It's like, well we could give in a little bit to the president. Well, let's give in a lot, you know. But geez man, come on, it's like where do you find a liberal that has the courage of his or her convictions these days? That's the rare thing.

BROWN: All right, a little word association. Enron?

MOORE: I'm reconsidering my position on the death penalty.

BROWN: You've been thinking about it. You actually, I think it could be argued you were thinking about Enron before any of us was thinking about Enron.

MOORE: Yes, I wrote about it in my book.

BROWN Yes.

MOORE: And I wrote this book last spring and summer. I wrote about Enron, Arthur Andersen, all these things.

BROWN: Yes. The president?

MOORE: Waiting for him to resign.

BROWN: He's not going to, Michael.

MOORE: No, that's not going to happen?

BROWN: Why do you think he's going to resign? Why do you think he should resign? I don't think he's going to.

MOORE: Because I believe that somebody here at CNN, or some modern day Woodward or Bernstein is going pull it all together in terms of how this corporation, Enron, bought this administration, you know, Ken Lay and what he had to do there in terms of picking the regulatory people that were supposed to oversee Enron, the Arthur Andersen attorney that became the head of the Securities and Exchange Commission, the Enron VP that's the Secretary of Army, the Enron lawyer that's the White House counsel. Are we running out of time?

BROWN: Not yet.

I mean, the list goes on forever. And this was a bought administration, bought by essentially now what we understand a phony company with phony stock prices. And frankly. when this all comes out, I think that, I don't think we're going to go through another impeachment, but I just hope that he has the good graces to say, you know what, this wasn't right. And I'm sorry. And I'm going to leave now. He better take Cheney with him.

BROWN: I'm not sure if you're thinking or wishing. About a minute left, tell me about the book. What's the book about?

MOORE: The book is sort of -- it's a book of political humor, the way I look at things these days and what's going on. And it's not just about Bush. It's about lots of things, like you know, I'm sitting next to a guy in an airport. He's an American Eagle pilot. And he says to me, you know, how much our first year pilots make? I says, "No." He says like $15,000-$16,000. I said, "You've got to be kidding me."

BROWN: Yes. MOORE: And I'm thinking, "Oh, my God." He says, yes, one of our guys just applied for food stamps. I'm on a plane with a guy flying me up in the air, and he's making less than the kid at Taco Bell? I mean, I just think, what is going on here? I mean, so the book is full of a lot of good information like that, scary information. But at the same time, I think you'll have a good laugh at the expense of all the right people.

BROWN: Fifteen seconds, do you feel good or bad about your country these days?

MOORE: I love this country and I love the people in it. And I think that we've been through a very difficult time. And we're going to identify where the real evil is, root it out, and make this country a better place.

BROWN: It's always nice to see you.

MOORE: Thank you, Aaron. Thank you for what you do here.

BROWN: Well, thank you. You're very kind.

We'll be right back, Segment 7 is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, time again for another Olympic moment, or as we like to think of it, something old in the news. Because of the rules which restrict our use of the Olympics, rules you're probably sick of looking at here.

Here's a little something from yesterday. And it is curling, a sport as old as ice itself. The Americans are in the white shirts here. The Norwegians in the black. They are very good at this.

16 stones, as you know, are thrown. The brushes working very hard to reduce the friction or in some cases, increase the friction, depending on the situation, all in an effort to get that perfect 8. Should you want to know about curling, we found a website. And we actually have -- can you actually see the address? Perhaps if you have really good eyes, you can. Anyway, it's at Brown University, no relation.

Now every news organization on the planet does a version of this next story. It is the Olympics local color story, the sights, the sounds, the people who make the games what they have been or at least what they've been since the advent of TV. We did what we always do when we have no better idea. We said let Bellini do the story. It'll be different. He did and it is.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The best Olympic moments for people who come to the Olympics, for the most part, have nothing to do with the games themselves.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We stood in line for an hour and a half to do this but it was worth it.

BELLINI: This is Olympic Square. Thousands gather here each day. It's like a carnival, an excellent place to go hunting for people's moments.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think probably her most wonderful opening ceremony or Olympic moment was when she found her hand warmers. She was freezing so much because we are from florida.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right, we never knew about handwarmers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Driving here from New York, seeing a pickup truck on the side of the road all bashed in, about 10 miles up, a guy kicking a dead moose. I think that was my best moment so far.

BELLINI: I had an Olympic moment of my own a moment ago. I captured what is perhaps the best sound byte of my career.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My Olympic moment is when you go through metal detectors. Of course, with these coats and these hats, we set them off all the time. And the National Guard guys are very thorough. And since it's close to Valentine's Day, I just thought it was really nice how he took his time trying to find the pins that are all over our jacket and coats.

BELLINI: What are you trying to say?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I got frisked.

BELLINI: And you liked it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, you know. He was cute.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And Nick here has ran up. And he's met the Hungary curling team. The girls got their e-mail address and their phone numbers.

BELLINI: Wait, wait, wait. Hold on. What is that dance you're doing?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He goes, "You know, the munchy team." And I go, "Munchy? There is no munchy team." And I go, "Hungary?" And he goes, "Yes, not the munchies."

BELLINI: And then some moments transform themselves into fantasies.

What are people going to think when the woman from Jesus Ministries is talking about the pleasures in getting frisked by the security guards?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, we're humans, just anybody else is.

BELLINI: You got girls' phone numbers?

It is human to have a moment and not want to let it go. Jason Bellini, CNN, Salt Lake City, Utah.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: They're almost over. We'll see you tomorrow at 10:00. Good-night.

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