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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
U.S. Requests Extradition of Prime Pearl Kidnapping Suspect
Aired February 26, 2002 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again. I'm Aaron Brown.
I've suspected, and I think in some ways dreaded, that this day was going to come, the day we got our hands on the tape made by the killers of Danny Pearl. I wrote about this briefly today in the e- mail we sent out around dinnertime, and we have gotten enough feedback here to know that some of you have been dreading this as well.
So let's talk about it for a second. We are not going to run the tape. We don't have possession of it to run in the first place. And I'm not actually sure what we would have done if we had gotten possession of it, though my gut reaction is I would have lobbied pretty hard to run parts of it. But we don't have it yet, so no decision needed to be made.
But CNN's Connie Chung did view the tape today in Pakistan, and there is enough news value in that tape to talk about it in some detail tonight. But we didn't need some whooptie-doo, big deal meeting in Atlanta to know what we weren't going to do with the tape or her account of it. You will not hear the details of Danny Pearl's death. The tape shows it. We've reported that. We discussed it last night in as much detail as we need to. It was a vicious act by vicious people.
There is no reason to talk about it in any more detail tonight. And having said all that, and we're going to repeat it later, I'm struck than anyone who would watch this program, who has watched this program, would think we would do otherwise. Maybe somebody will, maybe the murder scenes are going to turn up on the Internet some day. Everything else seems too. But I guarantee you, you will not see those scenes here tonight or ever. You got to trust us sometimes, really.
On to the news of the day. The conversation with Connie comes a little bit later. We'll start our whip around the world with the battle over the killers of Danny Pearl and where they will face justice eventually. Susan Candiotti is working the Pearl story. Susan in Washington, a headline from you.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Aaron. There are promises of justice, but where will it happen, and by whom? Today, for at least the fourth time since last fall, by our count, U.S. officials have asked for the chance to try the man now called the alleged mastermind of Daniel Pearl's kidnapping. A new request from the U.S. ambassador to Pakistan and Secretary of State Colin Powell also involved. We'll have the latest.
BROWN: Susan -- thank you, Susan. The latest from the Andrea Yates trial today, an important day. David Mattingly is covering the story. David, give us a headline.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Aaron. Detailed medical testimony continues in the Andrea Yates capital murder trial here in Houston. And finally today, a jury hears what the defense has been leading up to for days now, expert testimony that indicates Andrea Yates did not know that what she was doing was wrong when she killed her five children last June -- Aaron.
BROWN: David, thank you. And on to Capitol Hill, perhaps the most interesting day so far in the Enron hearings. Jonathan Karl continues to cover that. Jon, a quick headline from you tonight.
JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, defiant Jeffrey Skilling told the Congress that he's been telling the truth about what happened with Enron's collapse and that it is members of Congress that have been fast and loose with the facts. And making things especially interesting today, is while he said all of that, sitting just a few feet away was Congress' favorite Enron witness, Vice President Sherron Watkins.
BROWN: Jonathan, thank you. We all love good theater and we got some in Washington today. Back with you, all of you shortly.
A fascinating look at the Enron mess in next month's "Vanity Fair." Compelling enough is this story that the Senate panel today entered it into the official record. We'll talk with the reporter who wrote it a little bit later on.
And Nissen, don't ever call her Beth, has a look at the rap group Outkast. That's Outkast with a K. They have a song up for record of the year at the Grammy Awards. It's created a huge amount of buzz and some soul searching as well among the group's fans. That's all coming up later, a pretty nifty hour ahead.
And it begins with the diplomatic effort to get the suspected killers of Danny Pearl into this country, into a courtroom in the United States to face the American judicial system. It is a complicated dance. There is no formal extradition treaty with Pakistan, for one. And the crime itself, of course, was committed there, not here. And while the diplomats talked, the chief suspect was back in court. Once again, CNN's Susan Candiotti.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI (voice-over): Pushing and prodding Pakistan yet again to hand over the alleged mastermind of Daniel Pearl's kidnapping, Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh, the U.S. ambassador to Pakistan made another request today to President Pervez Musharraf. Following that meeting, he placed a call to Secretary of State Colin Powell.
RICHARD BOUCHER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: The Pakistanis are examining our request. And we'll continue these discussions to make sure the common desire on both sides to see that justice is served is in fact brought to fruition.
CANDIOTTI: U.S. government officials confirm Saeed Sheikh was secretly indicted around November in connection with a 1994 kidnapping of Western tourists, including an American. His extradition was requested after that indictment. What prompted that indictment, six years after the crime but two months after September 11, the Justice Department won't say.
In Pearl's case, some Pakistanis are pushing to bring Saeed Sheikh to justice there first to avoid an appearance Musharraf is caving in to U.S. demands, which could anger Islamic extremists.
KARL INDERFURTH, FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: If Saeed is sent to the U.S., that could make them even more determined in saying Musharraf is the enemy. But I think Musharraf is prepared to see this thing through.
CANDIOTTI: Earlier today, Saeed Sheikh appeared in court for the second day in a row. This time, a witness fingered him as the man who posed as a go-between to arrange an interview for Daniel Pearl, an interview that turned out to be a setup for his kidnapping and murder.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(on camera): Investigators still have not found Daniel Pearl's body, still have not found the murder weapon, still do not have those who were there when that chilling videotape was made -- Aaron.
BROWN: Susan, thank you.
And on the subject of that videotape, our talk with Connie who viewed the tape today in Pakistan is coming up in just a few moments. Let's deal with a few of the other news of day items first.
San Diego next, where the man accused in the abduction and murder of 7-year-old Danielle van Dam was in court today. David Westerfield charged formally with murder, kidnapping and possession of child pornography. He pleaded not guilty to all three charges. The judge denied bail and turned down a defense motion for a gag order. Danielle's parents watched from the gallery, making it especially rough for them, their daughter's body has still not been recovered.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRENDA VAN DAM, DANIELLE VAN DAM'S MOTHER: We've been asked again and again how are we feeling? All we can answer is that we miss Danielle desperately and the pain of her absence is absolutely unbearable. This makes finding Danielle the single most important priority for us as her parents, but also our community of mothers and fathers and daughters and sons who would want the same.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Danielle van Dam has been missing since the morning of February 2. And I think it's fair to say for all of us involved in this, whether you're watching or writing them, these stories about children are incredibly difficult and this is the hardest one of the current lot.
The defense in the Andrea Yates trial is now at the heart of its case. The doctors who believe that Ms. Yates was so mentally ill that she didn't or could not control her impulses to kill her five children. And therefore, should not be -- rather, should be found not guilty by reason of insanity. Now, no one in this case is saying that Ms. Yates should go free, but the defense is saying that life in prison or death row simply not a fair or just answer. Back to CNN's David Mattingly now, who was in the court today.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Did Andrea Yates know right from wrong when she drowned her five children? For the first time since her capital murder trial began, expert testimony gave us one answer.
Testifying for the defense, psychologist and physician George Ringholz says she did not know that the actions she took that day were wrong, a statement that struck to the very core of defense attempts to prove Yates is not guilty by reason of insanity.
GEORGE PARNHAM, YATES' DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think it went well. I think her mental condition is history. It's long and tedious.
MATTINGLY: Ringholz came to his conclusion after conducting an extensive battery of tests on Yates and finding her to be schizophrenic. Add this to nearly three days of testimony from mental health professionals at the Harris County Jail describing her as delusional and catatonic: The psychiatrist who called her one of the sickest patients she had ever seen, the nurse who called her zombie- like and feared Yates would try to take her own life, the counselor who revealed Yates believed teddy bears were coming out of the jail cell walls. A slow, almost overwhelming tour by the defense into the depths of Yates' mental illness.
DICK DEGUERRIN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: There's a point in which the jurors have gotten too much and they may be arriving at that point.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MATTINGLY (on camera): And expect more tomorrow as the defense is expected to wrap up with its medical testimony at least for now. It will then move on to testimony from family members. And that includes, Aaron, testimony from Andrea Yates' husband, Russell Yates.
BROWN: That is a -- it was a fascinating piece of sound at the end. The other defense lawyer, I assume, is someone not obviously involved in the case, saying there is a point of overkill, I guess in this, where jurors have heard enough or all they can absorb. As you watch jurors, and we don't pretend to read their minds, do you have any sense that they're tuning out?
MATTINGLY: They've all been very attentive. Quite a few of them are still taking notes. But that is a big question: How much is too much? The defense does have a terrible burden, legally, to bear in this case in trying to prove that Andrea Yates is not guilty by reason of insanity. So maybe a little bit of piling on on their behalf is justified here; but we'll see.
BROWN: Certainly understandable, David. Thank you, David Mattingly in Houston, who's covering the Yates trial.
Coming up after a short break, we'll talk with Connie Chung -- or we'll air the conversation we've already had with Connie after she viewed the Pearl tape.
And also coming up, Mariane Pearl speaks out.
This is NEWSNIGHT from New York on a Tuesday.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It's chilling to think what might have happened to Mariane Pearl had she gone along with her husband the night he was kidnapped. She often joined him on interviews, but she was six months pregnant and she wasn't feeling all that well. And so she decided not to go.
Today we saw Mariane Pearl for the first time since we learned of her husband's murder. In the conversation she doesn't dwell on what the terrorists did, but rather on what they did not do: They didn't destroy Danny Pearl's spirit.
She was interviewed today by CNN's Chris Burns.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARIANE PEARL, DANIEL PEARL'S WIDOW: I know Danny has not been defeated by the people who killed him.
His spirit, his faith, his conviction have not been defeated, you know. And I'm extremely proud of him, you know.
The only thing -- I don't even want to address the people who support -- you know, I mean, whatever. What I'm saying is that if people do not let terror, you know, get in their heart and they react and they realize the real nature of the terrorism, then they will be defeated.
I don't have a political message for them, you know. The message I have is -- for the people -- is just, do like Danny. Just don't be defeated by them.
CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And try to address the underlying problems that bring about these kinds of groups?
PEARL: Exactly. Ask yourselves a question.
BURNS: Mariane (SPEAKING FRENCH), you're French, your husband was from California. You're seven months pregnant now. Where do you go from here? What will you do?
PEARL: Well, as I said I will, you know, first thing, hold this memorial. I will carry on this message, because I think Danny and I are very much alike. We have the same kind of conviction. As I say, we are not defeated. And so I will, you know, make sure that his pain and my pain will help, you know, change the world in that sense, you know, at our level.
BURNS: Concretely, what do you mean? Where will you do that? How will you do that?
PEARL: I think, you know, again the key word is "dialogue," you know. So I can share my experience, I do like when, you know, inviting other people to do. What am I doing? What do I know? How can I help? So I do that at my own level. And of course I will also, as you say, I'm seven months pregnant; and I will give life, give birth to Danny's son -- just go on.
BURNS: And what will you tell your son?
PEARL: About?
BURNS: About what happened to your husband?
PEARL: Well, that depends on, you know, how people -- no, it depends on how people react to that. You know, if I can talk to my son, you know, yes, he was brutally and cowardly murdered, but the ultimate objective of these people never reached his goal thanks to him, you know, what he passed on to me and what he passed on to other people, and hopefully other people to other people. Danny's a hero.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Man, that is a woman who sets the standard for how to react or how one might react in the face of tragedy and pressure. She's something.
On to the tape. OK, let's be clear about this: Killers made this tape hoping it would be viewed around the world. It is a political statement. Connie Chung refers to it as propaganda, and she's exactly right.
But there is also news value here, and there is value to investigators. Again, we are not showing the tape. We don't have it, nor are we going to talk about those scenes where the murder is committed.
But we're also not self conscious about doing this piece. It's news. It has value. It is part of a horrible story that needs to be understood.
Having said that, we began our conversation with Connie Chung.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Connie, there's no question the tape raises a number of issues, and I want to get to some of those. But let's first talk about the tape itself, those parts of the tape that we're going to describe, what did you see?
CONNIE CHUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the tape runs three minutes and 15 seconds long. The original tape as we know it runs three minutes and 50 -- 5-0 -- seconds long. What I saw was an edited portion, I believe 40 seconds missing.
But I'm told through my sources that it is a legitimate tape. It is identical to the original.
It shows Daniel Pearl, his talking to at one point off camera and another point towards the camera, edited heavily. In addition, there are words that appear just below his face such as Afghanistan, Kashmir, Palestine. And there are pictures superimposed next to his face that show bodies, funerals. So presumably, the name superimposed here of that particular location, those scenes are from Afghanistan or Kashmir.
The tape begins with Daniel Pearl saying, "My name is Daniel Pearl. I'm a Jewish American."
I'm reading it because I did take it verbatim and I want to get it absolutely correct.
Later on it's very, very clear that what he is uttering is pure propaganda that the terrorists demanded that he utter. He talks about his heritage. He says, "My father is Jewish, my mother is Jewish, I am a Jew."
Later on, looking at the camera he says, "We've made numerous family visits to Israel." He says that there is a street called Heim (ph) Pearl Street, which was named after his great grandfather who was one of the founders of the town.
Then again there is clear editing. And at this point he's somewhat struggling to speak in the sense that you can tell that the terrorists have demanded that he utter these words.
He says, "Not knowing anything about my situation, not being able to communicate with anybody, and only now do I think about some of the people in Guantanamo Bay. They must be in a similar situation, and I have come to realize that this is the sort of problem that Americans are going to have anywhere in the world now."
He then looks off camera, clearly under duress, saying "We can't be secure, we can't walk around free as long as our government policies are continuing and we allow them to continue."
He then -- there's another edit, again he looks at the camera and says we as Americans can not continue to bear the consequences of our government's actions, such as the unconditional support for the state of Israel. It almost seems as if he's reading from memory. He's speaking from memory. He's not reading a text, but he's speaking from memory. He's struggling to try to remember what he's supposed to say. It clearly is pure propaganda. During this portion in which he's speaking it runs about a minute 35, 37 seconds. Then comes the graphic portion of the videotape, which I will not describe out of respect to Daniel Pearl and his family. That runs approximately 50 seconds.
In the end, the videotape, in the end the videotape shows a picture of Daniel Pearl, and there is a title that says the National Movement for the Restoration of Pakistan Sovereignty and parenthesis -- NMRPS. Then a very sophisticated crawl is what we call it in television, the words roll from the bottom of the screen to the top of the screen, and there are demands that the terrorists want to convey to whoever is viewing the videotape. And basically the demands are that the Palestinians who are being held -- forgive me -- the Pakistanis who are being held in Guantanamo Bay be released, the immediate end of U.S. presence in Pakistan, and a delivery of those F- 16 planes that Pakistan had paid for but were not received. And then a clear threat to Americans who are here in Pakistan, and that if these demands are not met, then a similar situation of what happened to Daniel Pearl will occur again and again. And those words end with dot, dot, dot.
BROWN: OK. Connie, let me throw a couple of quick things and then one that's more complicated. You say he's clearly under duress, how do you know that?
CHUNG: He does not appear as if he's speaking terribly naturally. In the beginning portions, he is speaking a bit more naturally as if he were just talking to someone off camera. But later on, he's struggling to say the words that, that he utters and it clearly appears as if these are words that he doesn't want to speak.
BROWN: OK. Now, take us a couple seconds here and describe how he looks? Does he look like he's been beaten up? Does he look exhausted? Does he look clean shaven or unshaven? Give me a picture.
CHUNG: He's unshaven. He doesn't appear to have a growth of several days, it's very difficult to tell. He is not beaten in these particular excerpts in which he's speaking. But it's very difficult to tell, the quality of the tape is not very good. There are times when his hair is mussed and there are times when it's slick back. He doesn't appear natural, certainly, but he doesn't appear as if he's been beaten.
BROWN: And here's the more complicated question, I think, this tape is a piece of evidence at this moment. What is it that investigators hope to get from it?
CHUNG: Sources tell me that investigators are studying the tape carefully in a scientific way. Trying to look at the hands that are seen, the hands and the arms of someone who is actually appearing in the more graphic portions of the videotape. And they will compare those hands and those arms with those of the suspects who are currently being held in Pakistani custody.
They will also, authorities, I'm told, are trying to arrest seven other individuals they have named, hoping that these individuals will either become suspects or witnesses. And they will compare their arms and their hands in a scientific way to those seen on the tape.
BROWN: OK. A final question, and we alluded to this earlier. We've talked about a piece of tape that has other video images on it that has a crawl running up one side of it, that appears to have a number of edits in it. Clearly at some level this was a produced piece of video, this was not home video the way we tend to think of it?
CHUNG: That's right.
BROWN: Aaron, it is highly produced. Though, it is rough editing and it's clearly a piece of propaganda. I mean, I think that you have seen and I've seen -- I covered the American soldier who was dragged through the streets of Mogadishu and videotape was taken of him. Very clearly propaganda video, this is clearly propaganda. And every portion of it is meant to send a message. And it is produced, highly produced in the sense that there are words that appear on the screen. The way we would be able to do it on our television screen. But then again, it's very roughly produced.
BROWN: Connie, just to make the point one more time, included on the tape there is that graphic portion of the tape where Mr. Pearl is murdered. We're not going to talk about that, we're not going to show that, and we'll just let that be -- terrific piece of work. Thank you.
CHUNG: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Talked to Connie in Karachi, earlier tonight. Pearl story says a fair amount how deep anti-American and anti-Western feelings can run among some people and some groups.
When we come back, the results of some extraordinary polling done in the Muslim world. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Well, the Pentagon is closing the Office of Strategic Influence. You may recall that's the department set up to get the American message out overseas, and also, reportedly, to spread misinformation. A lot of people, people in government, in the media, in academics, all called that aspect of it -- the disinformation part -- pretty boneheaded.
Defense Secretary Rumsfeld said the controversy was making it hard for the entire office to function, so he scuttled the whole thing. He says he hopes the Pentagon's credibility hasn't suffered because of it. If it has, he said, "We'll rebuild it."
When pressed further, the secretary, getting a little bit testy, said, "The office is done. It's over. What do you want, blood?"
Well, no. The Office of Strategic Influence was meant to be part of the government's effort to sell the American story abroad, and there is evidence today that there's plenty of work to be done in that regard.
Gallup did some poling in nine Muslim countries, and the results, while not necessarily surprising, are nevertheless troubling. Three- quarters of the people surveyed, 77 percent, think the United States' action in Afghanistan is morally unjustified.
Perhaps that stems from a widely accepted belief -- nearly two thirds, this is pretty shocking, I think -- 61 percent of the people surveyed said that Arab groups did not carry out the September 11 attacks. In fact, only 18 percent of those polled hold Arab groups responsible for the tragedy of 9/11.
In none of the nine countries surveyed does a majority hold a favorable view of the United States. Overall, 58 percent of those surveyed felt unfavorably towards President Bush.
That is a quick look at the poll. Joining us to talk about some of these numbers and more, a prominent pollster and an Arab American, John Zogby.
John, nice to see you again.
JOHN ZOGBY, PRESIDENT AND CEO, ZOGBY INTERNATIONAL: Good to see you too, Aaron.
BROWN: Not surprised.
ZOGBY: Not at all.
BROWN: Yes.
ZOGBY: No. In fact, it's shows the degree to which we have a lot of work to do to mend some fences in this part of the region -- part of the world.
BROWN: I want to talk to you about that. When we were checking microphones a moment ago, you said one of the things that was intriguing to you is what is missing. At the risk of ending the interview right now, tell me what that is.
ZOGBY: Well, certainly, you know, one of the actual results that has not been prominently reported is that the -- two out of three in the Muslim countries, 67 percent, say that the attacks of 9/11 were morally unjustified, and only 9 percent agreed that the attacks were justified. But what's missing, I think, from the polling in toto is the fact that we only see a one-dimensional view of this part of the world.
This is the part of the world, like every other part of the world, where people are concerned about food on their table, getting the kids to school, getting the kids, you know, health care and that sort of thing. And folks are not necessarily one-dimensionally concerned with the United States, with President Bush, with politics in general.
And I think that that would have grounded this poll a little bit and maybe showed us a little bit more of a multidimensional reality.
BROWN: Fair point. Explain this one to me. And I mean this seriously.
ZOGBY: Sure.
BROWN: This staggering percentage, almost two thirds, staggering to me, of people polled, people in the Arab world who, despite overwhelming evidence, do not believe that the people who crashed those planes into those buildings that day were Islamic. How can that be?
ZOGBY: It's shocking, very hard for us to understand. And yet by way of fumbling for an explanation, all that I can come up with is the fact that they found those attacks on 9/11 to be so repugnant that they just absolutely refuse to believe that it could be one of theirs.
Or even when a bin Laden on tape claims credit, smiles about it, some, many, have a grudging respect for Osama bin Laden, and they're projecting themselves upon him by saying, Anybody that we think is halfway decent, anybody who defies authority like he does, couldn't possibly have done anything as horrible as this.
BROWN: And let's look ahead a little bit. Short of selling out -- my word, and loaded word, and I apologize for that -- selling out Israel, which seems at a core of this bad feeling, what can the United States government do?
ZOGBY: I think we have to find areas of commonality. I mean, there are values that we share and that I'm sure that they share in -- throughout the Arab world and the Muslim world. You know, our polling shows they care about kids, they care about their own kids, that they feel that the history of Islam is one of tolerance. That's a possible bond with the United States, which has been religiously tolerant.
I think that the United States needs to, as a superpower, needs to show a little bit of humility in this region. In other words, I think that there are things that we can do symbolically but also in terms of building bridges by focusing on common values, where we can begin to communicate better with this part of the world.
And for those out there who may think, you know, that I am trying to justify something that is ugly, we've got to communicate with this part of the world or, or, or there's continued trouble down the road. And I don't think anybody wants that.
BROWN: Fifteen or 20 seconds left here. Do you think the situation is, in fact, worse today than it was a year ago, in, in, in the region?
ZOGBY: I think it probably is. And -- you mean, in terms of the views that they have towards the United States?
BROWN: Yes.
ZOGBY: Yes, I think it probably is, yes.
BROWN: John, thanks. It's always good to talk to you. John Zogby...
ZOGBY: Same here.
BROWN: ... who runs a polling organization of his own and also an Arab American, has some interesting insights into all this. Good to see you. Thanks.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, remembering the World Trade Center disaster of 1993. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Nine years ago today, we saw pictures we hoped we would never see again. It was just after noon -- boy, do I remember this -- a truck bomb went off in the World Trade Center parking garage. The pictures, of course, were smoke pouring out of windows, injured people rushing to the sidewalk, rescuers rushing back inside.
Six people died that day. But by the eighth anniversary a year ago, it is safe to say that most people had stopped marking the day.
The bombers were in prison, the damage to the buildings had been repaired. A small granite monument was the only reminder of the tragedy.
A fragment of that monument survived 9/11. They placed it on an altar today at St. Peter's Church not far from ground zero, where a memorial mass was held. About 200 people attended today.
The ceremony comes a day after the city agreed to include the names of the 1993 victims in the planned memorial to September 11.
But for now, this is the only memorial to that day. This is ground zero tonight. Does it ever not look eerie?
On we go.
The stock market did a morning plunge today, the Dow down 150 points when traders started selling after a report that American ground forces were in Iraq. The report, which was aired by Fox News, was quickly denied by the Pentagon, and the market began recovering. No explanation from Fox on where the report came from or why Fox ran the same report a week ago, which was also denied.
Enough said.
The Enron debacle continues to shake the markets, and it is still the dominant story in Washington. It was center stage at a Senate hearing today. On one end of the table in the committee room, the former CEO, who says he didn't know his company was in financial trouble, nor did he know much the off-the-book partnership deals that hid the debt and led to the collapse.
On the other side of the same table, one of his vice presidents, who says she knew exactly what was going on and tried to warn him.
Jeffrey Skilling, Sherron Watkins. He said, she said.
And now Jonathan Karl.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: ... the whole truth and nothing but the truth...
KARL (voice-over): For five and a half hours, the accused and the accuser sat at the same table.
SHERRON WATKINS, VICE PRESIDENT, ENRON: I find it hard to believe that Mr. Skilling was not aware that something was amiss, that this could not be legitimate.
JEFFREY SKILLING, FORMER CEO, ENRON: I never duped Ken Lay. I heard Miss Watkins testify to her opinion. I have no idea what the basis is for that opinion.
KARL: In fact, Skilling pointed out, he had virtually no contact with Watkins.
UNIDENTIFIED SENATOR: All, all those people who said that they were warning you, Ms. Watkins, (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
SKILLING: Ms. Watkins did not talk to me, senator.
KARL: Beginning with his defiant opening statement, Skilling repeatedly lambasted his Senate inquisitors for being sloppy with the facts.
SKILLING: Common decency suggests that I be treated as innocent into proven otherwise. Common sense suggests that accusations made now before the facts are in are likely to be wrong. Unfortunately, neither common decency nor common sense will carry the day in this politicized process.
KARL: From there, most of the hearing was Skilling versus the senators, with the witness repeatedly turning the tables on his questioners.
SKILLING: This is Miss -- and who is making that statement?
UNIDENTIFIED SENATOR: I just gave it to you.
SKILLING: No, who made the statement?
UNIDENTIFIED SENATOR: According to the minutes, Mr. Fastow.
SKILLING: Mr. Fastow represented that that's what the process was. Mr. Fastow was in error. UNIDENTIFIED SENATOR: Any way you parse this, you had the responsibility as the CEO...
SKILLING: We don't own oil and gas production...
UNIDENTIFIED SENATOR: Mr. Skilling, I appreciate that you don't agree with this. I'm not asking you that.
SKILLING: Now, now, wait, a margin...
UNIDENTIFIED SENATOR: You -- no, no, no, no, sir, I have a reason...
SKILLING: I want -- senator, you have asked me...
UNIDENTIFIED SENATOR: My question has nothing to do...
SKILLING: ... a very...
UNIDENTIFIED SENATOR: ... with whether you agree.
SKILLING: Senator, I'm sorry, but with all due respect...
UNIDENTIFIED SENATOR: I simply asked if you recalled it.
SKILLING: ... to you, it really is (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
KARL: The committee played a tape from a 1999 employee meeting where Skilling nods in agreement as another executive lauds Enron's stock.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Should we invest all of our 401(K) in Enron stock? Absolutely. Don't you guys agree?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SKILLING: Enron Corporation has constituted virtually 90 percent of my net worth from the entire time that I worked for the company. I was a strong believer in Enron Corporation. And you can take the videotape to mean what you want it to mean. I was a supporter of Enron Corporation.
KARL: Two weeks ago, Skilling told a House committee that he did not dump his Enron stock. But before this committee, he didn't dispute reports he sold $66 million in stock during the two and a half years before the company's collapse.
UNIDENTIFIED SENATOR: And do you consider $66 million a great deal of money?
SKILLING: Yes, it is, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED SENATOR: Do you still have most of that?
SKILLING: Yes, I do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KARL: But Skilling said he may not have all that money for long, because he is currently defending himself against more than 30 lawsuits brought by former and current Enron employees and shareholders -- Aaron.
BROWN: Jon, as quickly as you can, just give me a sense of the mood. Was it cut-it-with-a-knife tension in that hearing today?
KARL: Well, I'll tell you, I've never seen a witness come before Congress and be so aggressive with the senators. Senators are used to be treating deferentially. This was about as aggressive a witness as I've ever seen before the Congress.
He spent more time turning around asking them questions and trying to show that he knew the facts of this than they did, and he probably does.
BROWN: Jon, thank you. Best defense, good offense, I guess. Thank you very much, Jon Karl on Capitol Hill.
We have more on Enron, what it was like to work there, and how long some of this stuff was going on. It was going on for quite a while, it turns out. Reporter Marie Brenner joins us with her view, piece out of "Vanity Fair." We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: A bit more on Enron now. When we talk about the former chairman, Ken Lay, those classic questions from Watergate always seem to come up, what did he know and when did he know it? No answers from Mr. Lay himself. He's taken the Fifth. Sherron Watkins, for her part, has suggested that Mr. Lay was duped by the people under him.
But a report in next month's "Vanity Fair" shows that Lay himself helped create a pattern of hiding losses, hiding debt, all the way back to the '80s, at least the late '80s. Lot of other interesting things about the culture at Enron in the article as well.
So we thought we'd ask the woman who wrote it to join us. Marie Brenner is here tonight. It's nice to meet you.
MARIE BRENNER, WRITER-AT-LARGE, "VANITY FAIR": Thanks for having me.
BROWN: I said a moment ago I thought it's really several stories kind of woven into one. Let me take a little bit of each.
If you knew the company, knew it back in even 1987, the writing was on the wall that there were shenanigans going on.
BRENNER: Absolutely. What happened at Enron back in the '80s was a discovery of some stealing that was going on in one of their divisions. And it really, for me, this is a story of auditors, the Enron in-house auditors, and the Arthur Andersen auditors, who will come in to try and paste up a loss that is on the Enron books when they discover two thieves in their organization.
When presented with this information about his rogue traders, as the case was called then, what's new is that Ken Lay said in an audit meeting, Yes, they -- this may be a problem, but these traders are making so much money for me potentially that I don't want to deal with this.
BROWN: Yes.
BRENNER: Then they ran up over a billion dollars' worth of bad trades. What began as a small crime became a catastrophe. There's the pattern.
BROWN: You talk about the in-house Enron auditors. I -- from -- and you talk about this a bit more, because these are the good guys or gals, as the case may be, in this story. They were truly bothered, and tried to protect, I suppose, themselves, and perhaps also the company.
BRENNER: They were sent up to Valhalla, New York, where Enron Oil, the division of this company, was based, Aaron, and they were trying to investigate it, and they were literally called back after two days of being up there by the head of the company, Rich Kendor (ph). They were called back, according to the auditors, who have kept all of their notes and minutes of the affair, and presented their report to Lay at an audit meeting, and were simply told, you know, We'll deal with it, no problem.
And it -- the auditors believe this is a clear case for them of Lay putting what they call the stock price before his personal scruples.
BROWN: Let me twist this to another facet of the story you wrote, which is sort of the culture of Enron, which is at the risk of offending all Texans and everyone in Houston. It's kind of a cowboy company of hard-driving guys, in most cases. Right?
BRENNER: Absolutely. It's a macho culture, it's a trading culture, it's a culture we know well from "Liar's Poker." It is a culture which angered many of the women, who were very serious professional women, lawyers, auditors, accountants, deal makers who worked in the company. One trader had something he called the Hottie Board that he had out on the floor, where he would rank the allure of Enron women. There were constant remarks being made.
And when the women would complain about this, if these executives were making money, the traders, the women themselves would be redeployed, as -- in the Enron language. So...
BROWN: Because it didn't matter what you did or how you did it, if you made money, that's what counted.
BRENNER: That was it. You simply just -- Skilling used to say, We don't care how you get there. Redo your numbers. Reassess. Re -- Just get there.
BROWN: And you write -- I'm going to paraphrase this, but essentially it is the women of Enron who were the most troubled the earliest.
BRENNER: When I went down to Houston to do my reporting, I was absolutely amazed that of all the people that I interviewed, most of them were women. They were the ones who were willing to step forward and really say what they knew and when they saw it.
BROWN: Yes. It's nice to meet you. It's next month's issue of "Vanity Fair." And with magazines, I can never keep track of when they come out anyway, so I'll just keep looking for it.
BRENNER: Thanks for having me.
BROWN: Thank you, thank you very much.
When we come back, Segment Seven, and a band called Outkast. This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Finally from us tonight, Segment Seven.
When the president of the United States and rappers talk about the same thing, we think it's got to be worth listening to. President Bush today laid out his welfare reform proposal, including a plan to promote marriage, and he talked a bit about the problem of young fathers not taking enough responsibility for the kids they bring into the world.
Well, a rap duo called Outkast has done quite the same thing in a song that's up for record of the year at tomorrow night's Grammys, a brutally honest take on a very sensitive issue.
Our story's from CNN's Beth Nissen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OUTCAST (singing): Sorry, Ms. Jackson, (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If you're under 25, you've probably seen the video, heard the song, and may own it. The album it's on has sold 6 million copies worldwide.
DAVID WILLIAMS, OUTKAST FAN: The song is just a hot song, but the good thing about it is, it's about something, and they're talking about something that's a realistic issue.
NISSEN: The issue, unwed fatherhood. In the song, boy meets girl, they fall in love, have a baby. Their love dies, they separate. Girl and her mother -- that's Ms. Jackson -- are angry. The song is an apology from the young dad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OUTKAST: Never meant to make you cry, apologized a trillion times...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NISSEN: It is also a vow to be a committed father to the child.
BILL STEPHNEY, NATIONAL FATHERHOOD INITIATIVE: It's a very deep commentary on the family issue within the community. In 1960, about 80 percent of African-American children were born to two married parents. By 1995, nearly 80 percent were not born to two married parents.
NISSEN: Both members of Outkast, the Atlanta rap duo who wrote the song, grew up without a father in the home and are themselves unwed fathers.
ANDR'E "DR'E" BENJAMIN, OUTKAST: And what we were trying to say with the song was, even though we had a kid, OK, me and the parent not together, I'm going to do my best to do what I can, you know, to take care of my child.
ANTIONE "BIG BOI" PATTON: What the man got to realize is, even if you're not with the woman, you know what I'm saying, like, you're with the kid for life, you know, (UNINTELLIGIBLE), that's the obligation.
NISSEN: That resonates with what sociologists say is a growing number of men like these in a young fathers' support group in Harlem.
GLEN FIELDS, COORDINATOR, LOUISE WISE SERVICES YOUNG FATHERS PROGRAM: That could be coming out of any one of these guys' mouth, what they said in that song.
NISSEN: Take this verse on how separated fathers are often cut off from their kids.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OUTKAST: She never got a chance to hear my side of the story, we was divided. She had fish frys and cookouts, on my child's birthday, I ain't invited.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DARNELL SMITH, YOUNG FATHERS PROGRAM: My daughter's 3, and I missed two of them birthdays, you know what I'm saying, because her mother didn't invite me.
HARRISON DALEY, YOUNG FATHERS PROGRAM: But little do they know, they're not really hurting us more, they're hurting their child more, because not allowing the father to be there for that child's special day. NISSEN: The song protests the treatment of fathers as just walking wallets.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OUTKAST: And I let her know her grandchild is a baby and not a paycheck, private schools, day cares, medical bills, I pay them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FIELDS: Listen, I'm not -- I -- that's not all I want to be is a paycheck. I want to be a paycheck and I want to be Daddy, I want to be the father, I want to be the one near to or the ups and downs with this kid also.
NISSEN: And throughout the child's life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OUTKAST: So just know that everything's cool, and yes, I will be present on the first day of school and graduation. I'm sorry, Ms, Jackson. I am for real.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: I guarantee I'll be there the first day of school, graduation. And you need to know it and soak it in your brain.
NISSEN: The catchy hit has made its way into the brains of millions of potential fathers.
KENNETH DAVIDSON, OUTKAST FAN: And constantly hearing it on the radio, MTV, the words is going to be automatically just come in your head, and you're going to be sad. (singing) Sorry, Ms. Jackson -- You know what I'm saying? Just constantly it's in your head, it sinks in your head.
NISSEN: These young men say the message winks in too.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: It's time to start, it got -- it's a change. Everybody has to take responsibility, and just take care of their own.
STEPHNEY: The great thing about rap music is that it's the music of its generation, it's information music, that at the same time that you're getting sometimes melody and a lot of rhythm, you're also getting information that you get to process and digest along with all the cable stations and magazines that are thrown at you.
NISSEN: Outkast sees rap as both sound track and creed for a generation.
BENJAMIN: It's powerful, it's like we did this commercial.
PATTON: It's, like, they're not just listening to the beat, they're buying the record, they're listening to the words. So long as they walk away with something. NISSEN (on camera): Does a song like "Ms. Jackson" change minds?
BENJAMIN: Most definitely.
PATTON: We made a song that makes it cool to be a father to your child, you know what I'm saying?
NISSEN (voice-over): Cool to commit to the hardest work there is and stay with it, even through harsh times, to see it through, to do one's part for a brighter future.
Beth Nissen, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And that's our report for tonight.
I'm Aaron Brown in New York. For all of us at NEWSNIGHT, have a great evening. We'll see you tomorrow night, 10:00 Eastern time. Good night.
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