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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Jury Still Deliberating In Dog Mauling Case; Interview With Benjamin Netanyahu
Aired March 20, 2002 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone. A short page here, a few random thoughts, a little housekeeping. If I didn't know better, I would say only happy people write the program.
We had a tremendous response to last night's program on sex scandals in the Roman Catholic Church. I looked at more than 100 of the notes. There were many left unread. The writers, and we never know whether their views mirror the audience in general were pleased with the effort. They found it thoughtful and respectful and more so than not on point.
The criticism there was came from people who didn't think the program was hard enough on the church or its leaders. Obviously, we appreciate the compliments, but mostly we appreciate your willingness to write. We'll see how tonight goes.
A little later a conversation with former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, in very soft tones, you'll hear him say some very harsh things, and as you listen and consider his words, you might keep in mind that he may well be the next Israeli Prime Minister. He thinks he will. He very much wants to, and if that happens and if he does what he says he will try to do, the events of the last few weeks in the Middle East will look like Cub Scout camp.
This is not meant as an argument for or against. It is just a reminder of where things are and how bad they have gotten. That's coming up later. The whip comes now, beginning with Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, the latest on the plan to use military commissions or tribunals. Take your pick on the name. Jamie the headline out of there tonight.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, the Pentagon hasn't yet released its rules for trying terrorists. Already they're drawing fire. The ACLU says it's deeply troubled. Some in Congress say it could put U.S. troops at risk in the future. The Pentagon says everybody calm down. When they release the rules tomorrow, they will be seen as fair and just -- Aaron.
BROWN: Jamie thank you, back to you shortly. The Justice Department is out to interview more people, mostly Middle Eastern men, as part of the anti terror campaign. Susan Candiotti has been working on that, so Susan the headline tonight please. SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, when the government started this last November, it went over like a lead balloon with many in the Arab and Muslim community. Fast forward to tonight. Round two of these interviews just announced, and again criticism. We'll tell you what it's all about -- Aaron.
BROWN: Thank you. More now on the violence and the negotiations to end it in the Middle East. Christiane Amanpour in Jerusalem again for us. Christiane a headline tonight.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, negotiations continue between the security officials of both the Palestinians and the Israelis. The latest session, the second this week, wrapped up in the early hours of this morning Jerusalem time, still with no cease- fire but with a pledge to keep meeting on that issue.
BROWN: Christiane, thank you, and the latest on the dog mauling trial in Los Angeles. The jury has it. Thelma Gutierrez. Thelma, the headline.
THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, jurors deliberating in the trial of a San Francisco couple whose dog viciously mauled a woman to death have reached verdicts on four of the five counts against the couple after only two days of deliberation. An announcement may be right around the corner -- Aaron.
BROWN: Thank you, back with all of you shortly. We don't intend to neglect the milestone reached on Capitol Hill today. Campaign Finance Reform passed the Senate, a seven-ear battle. We'll talk with it's most prominent champion, Senator John McCain.
Correspondent Brian Cabell tonight gets us up to date on a wanted man nowhere to be found, though authorities once thought they had him cornered. Obviously we are not talking about bin Laden here but Eric Rudolph, charged in the Olympic Park bombings of more than four years ago.
The rumor that has nearly destroyed one restaurant tonight, about what happened there on September 11th. This one may make you think twice before spreading a rumor yourself. It's actually a terrific story from Jeff Flock and it will end the program tonight.
And also a little bit later, the person behind personality parade, the man behind the byline, and 77 million readers a week, Walter Scott, and he is not who you think he is, all that in the hour ahead.
We begin with the not always simple question of military tribunals and whether they're the right way to deal with the detainees at Camp X-Ray and with others. The question has until now been strictly hypothetical.
The administration so far choosing to try John Walker Lindh and Zacarias Moussaoui in civil court, but a different choice appears to be on the horizon for the al Qaeda and Taliban detainees, at least some of them. We expect the formal announcement from the Pentagon tomorrow, a preview tonight from Jamie McIntyre.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE (voice over): Pentagon sources say it's possible only a small number of the Taliban and al Qaeda fighters held in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba will ever face a military commission. The Pentagon says the legal process it's fashioned takes into account the concerns of critics.
VICTORIA CLARKE, PENTAGON SPOKESPERSON: I think when people see the whole thing and hear the questions get answered, I think they'll say, "you know what, that's a pretty good product, and that is a fair and a balanced and a just system."
MCINTYRE: Sources say the process will be open, similar to a military court martial. The accused will be presumed innocent. They must be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The defendants will have the right to an attorney and to see any evidence against them, although classified material may be reviewed in closed session, and the military panel will have to be unanimous to impose the death penalty.
There are also some differences. The panel can decide to admit hearsay and secondhand evidence, and while there will be a right to appeal, it will be to a military review board, not the federal courts, and the final review will fall to President Bush, who seems to have already made up his mind.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Remember these are the ones in Guantanamo Bay are killers. They don't share the same values we share.
MCINTYRE: That doesn't sound like an impartial process to some members of Congress.
REP. JOHN CONYERS (D), MICHIGAN: They want to get easier convictions. When you have a military tribunal, there are very few people that don't get convicted in them just as a matter of course.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE (on camera): Now critics like Representative Conyers insist that they're not motivated by any sympathy for terrorists, but rather a concern that the Pentagon might set a precedent that others would use against the United States in the future and subject captured U.S. troops to what would amount to Kangaroo Courts. Aaron.
BROWN: This is the argument that we heard when the discussion was about how to classify the detainees, whether they were prisoners of war, whether the Geneva Convention was in play. When do these people find out what it is they are charged with?
MCINTYRE: Well, they may not find out any time soon. The timeline the people are talking about in this is perhaps the end of the summer, even into fall and then it may be that just a small number face the military tribunal or commissions, perhaps just the top leaders. The inclination among some of the Pentagon is once they've gotten all the intelligence that they feel they can get from these captured prisoners, is to perhaps send them back to their own country, such as Saudi Arabia where justice is even less cumbersome, shall we say.
BROWN: And a fair amount harsher. Thank you, Jamie. Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. Another aspect of the War on Terror that's about to make a return appearance, late last year you'll recall, the Justice Department began questioning people who, in the words of the Attorney General, fit the criteria of people who might have information regarding terrorism, a fairly squishy phrase, meaning essentially people from countries where al Qaeda is active, non citizens, and of course most of them come from the Middle East.
Upwards of 4,700 names are on that original list and the Justice Department now wants to talk to several thousand more, and like the last time around, the policy is raising some questions. Here again, CNN's Susan Candiotti.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI (voice over): The Justice Department is calling it a second phase, tracking down another 3,000 mostly Middle Eastern men, all non U.S. citizens, who authorities claim could help find terrorists.
JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: We believe that these individuals might either wittingly or unwittingly be in the same circles, communities or social groups as those engaged in terrorist activities.
CANDIOTTI: And Arab-American groups are once again crying foul.
JAMES ZOGBY, ARAB AMERICAN INSTITUTE: What this does is it creates a PR stunt for the broader public, "look, we're doing something" and it creates chill and fear in the Arab and Muslim community.
CANDIOTTI: In Round One that started last November, 5,000 men were targeted. Fewer than half were interviewed. Most the rest could not be found. About 20 were arrested, none for terrorism. In Round Two, the targets are also mostly Middle Eastern men, ages 18 to 46, who entered the U.S. since October through last month. Their passports, says the Justice Department, ties them to countries where al Qaeda is active.
ASHCROFT: The individuals to be interviewed are not suspected of any criminal activity. We are merely seeking to solicit their assistance.
CANDIOTTI: The Justice Department boasts of leads like this one, summarized in a heavily redacted report provided to reporters. One interviewee in (information blanked out) described a man who talked of gathering like-minded friends and going to (blank).
ZOGBY: If this is the best that they found out, they literally found out nothing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI (on camera): Not true says the Justice Department, adding some of their interviewees have even volunteered to be informants who want the government to protect their freedom. Others ask at what price. Aaron.
BROWN: Let's go back to where we were last year when we talked about this. Are these voluntary interviews or are they not?
CANDIOTTI: Well, the Justice Department maintains that they are voluntary. You don't have to help them out. On the other hand, the prosecutors and police officers and federal agents from around the country will try to seek you out and see if you will assist, but they're not being very successful in all cases.
In fact, the Justice Department admits they haven't been able to find half the people they were looking for and also acknowledge they couldn't even verify that some of the others they couldn't find even left the country. Aaron.
BROWN: And is there any carrot here? Is there any promise of hurrying up the citizenship process, anything like that?
CANDIOTTI: No, they aren't making an outward promises like that, but certainly one would think that would be taken into consideration if some people were more helpful than others.
BROWN: We shall see. Susan, thank you. Susan Candiotti in Washington. Vice President Cheney back home tonight, fair to say his trip to Arab and Islamic states was dramatically affected by the events in the Middle East. The purpose of the trip originally was to find support for any action the United States might take Iraq, but he found Arab leaders who said, "not now. No support now, not unless the administration deals with the violence between Palestinians and Israelis.
So he used his influence and that of the President's envoy to the region to press for a cease-fire, a starting point for getting the killing to stop, and that little Iraq issue back on track. We go back to CNN's Christiane Amanpour who is in Jerusalem. Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Well, Aaron, Secretary - rather Vice President Cheney, has put a very tight schedule on a cease-fire, particularly his condition that he would meet with Yasser Arafat if, in fact, there was a satisfactory cease-fire. Now that would be before the Arab Summit, exactly a week from now, and so far there is no cease-fire, although the security officials mediated by the U.S. Special Envoy, have been meeting twice now, the latest one was overnight our time here in Jerusalem and it wrapped up just after midnight with no particular definite cease-fire yet to be announced, and apparently gaps on both sides, according to officials who spoke to CNN, but, they say they pledge to keep meeting.
In the meantime, early yesterday our time here, there was a suicide bomb attack on a bus here in Israel. Seven people were killed and at least 30 people were injured, and as these violent incidents happen on both sides, particularly over the last couple of weeks, there is in fact an increasing debate within Israeli society about continuing the defense forces and the patrolling of the West Bank and Gaza.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR (voice over): On patrol in the West Bank with a reserve unit of Israeli defense forces.
FRAN ELIAS: It's not a regular war. It's very hard for us to distinguish between a person and a (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
AMANPOUR: Captain Iran Elias admits that for the Israeli military, every Palestinian is a suspect these days. He and his fellow reservists at this base believe that now more than ever they have a duty to serve.
DAN SWIRSKY: Three weeks here, one week here< I see myself as a soldier who defends my country. My job is to protect civilians from people that would harm them.
AMANPOUR: But there is another debate gathering steam here, which the night before got a rare public airing. The issue, Israelis refusing to be part of an occupying force in the Palestinian territories.
KHAI MENUCHIN: Because occupation by definition is immoral and an anti democratic act. The territories we are spending 35 years in the territories, almost more than three million Palestinians that live under occupation.
AMANPOUR; A new and younger group of reserve officer says, the situation in the occupied territories is unethical, unbearable and unjustified. In just eight weeks, since they posted this Web site, the number of reservists refusing to serve in the West Bank and Gaza has risen from a handful to 349.
A recent report on Israeli television caused a stir here with these images of Israeli soldiers after raiding a Palestinian refugee camp, confronting civilians who lead that they are unarmed, and an Israeli soldier lounging in a Palestinian living room saying, "I don't know what we are doing here.
AMANPOUR (on camera): The so-called refusnics say that the level of popular support in Israel for their right not to serve is increasing from 15 percent this January to 23 percent just a month later. But what's clear is that every time a suicide bomber goes into a cafe, a pizza parlor or a discotheque and bows up innocent Israeli civilians, the refusnics cause suffers irreparable harm.
AMANPOUR (voice over): Captain Elias says in these circumstances, refusal is not an option.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is every day. Every day (inaudile). AMANPOUR: Many reservists oppose occupation, settlements, demolishing Palestinian homes an F-16 bombing raid, but they don't believe that the Palestinians are fighting against occupation or settlement, rather against Israel's very existence.
Gut the refusnics counter that they are acting to preserve Israel's existence and its future by trying to bring both morality and security into the national debate.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR (on camera): Now, we had a conversation with the Israeli Foreign Minister, Shimon Perez, last night who said that they are really hoping against hope that they can get a cease-fire in place, and that they're looking towards the Arab Summit next week as the first chance in a long, long time to have a political road map on the table, perhaps to get Israeli and Palestinian society out of the bind that they find themselves in right now. Aaron.
BROWN: Christiane, let's go back to the cease-fire talks for a second. What is it they're negotiating, I guess? Is it which soldiers go where, where the pullback goes to. Is it that sort of thing.
AMANPOUR: Well, it's hard to know the exact stumbling blocks. We were told by an Israeli defense ministry official this morning that there are gaps. Of course, some of the issues are the demand that, from the Israeli side, that the Palestinian Leader Yasser Arafat make an immediate and public appeal and order for the violence to stop.
The Israelis say that there are mechanisms in place to be able to test immediately the effect of an order to a cease-fire and to stop militant activities, this on the Palestinian side where the Palestinians are always insisting that before any cease-fire can take place, there must be full withdrawal, full pullback. They want to see closure end at checkpoints and some of the more draconian measures that have been put in place over the last 18 months. They want to see a pullback back to the positions before September of 2000, when the intifada began.
So there are obviously big stumbling blocks, but both sides say that they believe they can work them out and come to a cease-fire. And, of course, it's conditional of course on whether Arafat goes to the summit next week. If he doesn't do a cease-fire to the satisfaction of the Americans and the Israelis, there's s likelihood that he won't be allowed to leave Israel or the territories and go to Beirut.
BROWN: Christiane, thanks. Christiane Amanpour in Jerusalem tonight. And coming up next, we'll talk with or our talk with would be more accurate, Israel's former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Israelis being, well, Israelis are most certainly divided on what to do these days. There are doves but they are hardly the majority, but they believe in giving back land for peace, getting out of the West Bank and Gaza and then there are the hawks, who believe that security should come at almost any cost, including a full takeover of the Palestinian territories.
And then there is Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel's former prime minister, who perhaps has his own category as super hawk, and he is a man who has followers, and if the polls are correct, he has a lot of them. We talked to the former prime minister late this afternoon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: This government, the Sharon government, has been forceful, aggressive in dealing with the attacks on Israel. Has it made Israel more secure? Is Israel more secure because of the aggressiveness?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: I don't think it's a question of aggressiveness, and I don't think it's the application of more force, more force or less force. It's what the force is applied to, and unless it's applied to the removal of Arafat's dictatorial corrupt regime that fosters police, the idea of Israel's removal through the illegitimate means of terror, unless that regime is removed, there won't be an (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
There won't be the beginning of a peace, and by the way, there won't be a beginning of a new possibility of life for the Palestinians, who are condemned to live under this brutal dictatorship. I think they should have free choice, democratic choice to choose a different leader.
BROWN: But that's a choice - I don't want to get sidetracked on this, but that's a choice I seem to agree they have to make that the Israeli government can't make for them.
NETANYAHU: No, we're going to take action, the kind of action that you take when you're faced with a regime that obliterates American innocent lives in New York. You've taken action to remove the Taliban regime. You pick up the pieces of al Qaeda that's left over, but you're systemically going about the right way of fighting terrorism, which is to fight the regimes, the terrorist regimes that stand behind the terrorists.
That's essentially what we have to do, and for a fact, so far we failed to do it. We've applied force, sometimes in targeted assassinations, sometimes elsewhere, but in fighting the terrorists, the main thing you fight are not the terrorists, but the regime that makes the terrorist warfare possible.
In this case, I think that Arafat who's orchestrated this, whose own forces commit 90 percent of the terrorist atrocities that you see nightly on your television sets, and that we experience hourly in Israel. I think this Arafat has to go for a new beginning to take place between us and the Palestinians and between the Palestinians and themselves. BROWN: Do you believe that the United States government, that the European Union, that the United Nations would be supportive of that?
NETANYAHU: No, I don't think so.
BROWN: And so does that mean Israel has to make yet again the choice of going it alone?
NETANYAHU: Look, I think that many in Washington and many in the American public understand that Arafat belongs to the Jurassic part of dictators who are still clinging on with arcane obsolescent ideologies of destroying Israel. You have such a dictator in the Western Hemisphere. Look at the rest of the hemisphere. It's gone forward, but your relationship with that country, with Cuba, has not gone forward and the Cuban people have been held backwards.
Arafat is much worse, because he practices violence on a scale that makes even the horrors of September 11th pale by comparison. In the last year and a half, Israel has suffered the equivalent almost of eight World Trade Center bombings. Imagine that. One World Trade Center and then a few days later, the Sears Tower in Chicago, and then a few days later the towers of San Francisco and on and on and on, except it's not a few days later. It's every hour.
BROWN: Can you do this, what you would like to do, absent the support of the international community?
NETANYAHU: I think that most of the international community does not support the - did not support Israel. Indeed none supported Israel when it took out the atomic bomb factory of Saddam Hussein at (UNINTELLIGIBLE) but Israel had to do the right thing to protect its life, and coincidentally also to give the world nuclear peace for two decades.
Imagine what would have happened if Israel had not taken that decisive act and Menachim Begin shirked away from it because there would be condemnation from the international community.
In their heart of hearts - not the heart of hearts, why say that. That was yesterday. That was yesterday in Naples, Florida. I spoke to 1,000 people. I shook hands with most of them. Two of them whispered in my ear that they were Jewish. The rest were not.
When I said this, they got up. They didn't boo me. They cheered because they understand you can't have a double standard. It can not be that America correctly says, "you have to root out the terror regimes. You fight terrorism to the ends of the earth. You go to the highest mountains literally to root out the remaining terrorism, after you knock out the terrorist regime of Taliban."
We have to deal with our own Taliban and we can't negotiate with them and give them things. We have to tell them surrender terrorism or surrender power, just as you said to the Afghan terrorist regime. They didn't surrender terrorism, out they went, and this is what we have to do with ours. BROWN: So the administration is practicing a double standard. In the last 10 days or so, it has been much harsher on the Israeli government, the Israeli position, and you would argue that's a double standard?
NETANYAHU: I think that it's hard to fault the administration in some sense. I'll tell you what I would fault them in, but it's hard to fault them in once sense because they've given Israel plenty of opportunity to act.
BROWN: Yes, they have.
NETANYAHU: And Israel, while taking certain actions, has got a government of national disunity. That is one side says do one thing and the other side says do the opposite, and so we're grid locked and, in fact, we're applying force without a clear political end. A political end that I would like to see is an end to this regime, to a replacement by more democratic forces, the ability of a negotiated peace between us and the Palestinians to ensue.
Has the United States changed? I suppose they're now concerned. I don't think they've changed their real attitude. They have no love for Arafat, not this government, not this people, the American people. But I think that they're now concerned with Iraq and the minute they put up Iraq as a target, they said "look we want quieter. Let's get this over with."
But of course, it won't be quiet and Arafat, who's exploiting this, is making more and more terror attacks, believing he's immune and I think really the choice we have is either to bring an end to this violence, save a lot of lives in the process, both Israeli lives and Palestinian lives, or wait, let the head of steam become impossible, and then we'd have to take action maybe on the eve of an American action in Iraq against Saddam Hussein. Not a good idea.
I think all we want to do is what any same government would do on far lesser violence done to its people. You are acting correctly and we can not be asked to absorb these systemic attacks on our civilians, on our children, on our women, on our life and handcuff ourselves. I don't think that's reasonable.
BROWN: Thank you. Thank you for your time. Good to meet you finally.
NETANYAHU: Good to see you.
BROWN: Thank you sir, very much.
NETANYAHU: Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you very much. Benjamin Netanyahu. Coming up next, campaign finance reform passed the Senate today. We'll talk with its most prominent champion, Senator John McCain. This is NEWSNIGHT in New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: The latest now on the Enron mess, which tonight and for a while has been the Andersen mess. The auditing firm pleaded not guilty today to obstructing justice, shredding Enron documents after it knew the government was investigating. Jury selection in the case begins May the 6. Andersen wants a very quick trial.
And outside a Houston courtroom today, Andersen employees protested the criminal charges against the entire company, as opposed to a few employees and partners. They wore T-shirts saying, "I am Andersen."
And then there's the court case that never was. It was March of 1992 that "The New York Times" had this headline: "Clintons Joined S&L Operator in Ozark Real Estate Venture." It would become known as Whitewater.
A decade later, the final report from the independent counsel has been released. And in that report, it says there was not enough evidence to charge the Clintons with any criminal wrongdoing. One of those sentences that can be read a couple of different ways.
The report did criticize Mr. Clinton for what it called "unwarranted" attacks on the investigation. Clinton's attorney, David Kendall, called the report "the most expensive exoneration in history." Including Lewinsky and the other side scandals, Travelgate and the rest, the investigation cost about $70 million.
Late today, the Senate passed a campaign finance bill. The vote was 60 to 40, not veto-proof, but President Bush does say he will sign it. The bill, McCain-Feingold in the Senate; Shays-Meehan in the House, would eliminate soft-money donations that are supposed to be used for party building efforts, but often wind up helping specific candidates instead.
Under the present law, individuals, corporations and labor unions are allowed to give unlimited amounts of soft money. That will change, but not until November 6, after this year's election. Cynics are having a field day with that. Expect a gold rush, they say, between now and November.
Opponents of the bill plan to challenge it in court on constitutional grounds, continuing a battle over the issue that's been going on since 1995.
And late this afternoon, just shortly after the vote we talked with its sponsor, Senator John McCain.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Senator McCain, when did you begin to believe, really believe that this day would happen, that you'd win this?
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: Probably when it passed through the House of Representatives was the time when I thought we were pretty certain.
BROWN: Because you never believed that opponents could filibuster to death or amend it to death?
MCCAIN: I didn't think so, particularly since we'd gotten it through the Senate once. And of course, scandals help. Scandals help. And the Enron scandal gave it some increased impetus.
BROWN: You made it more difficult for people to vote against it?
MCCAIN: Oh, yeah. I think that everybody thinks there's more coming and that this was a time to maybe clean up the system.
BROWN: And do you have any concern that in some respects, you all have promised more than in fact the bill could deliver? That there's still going to be plenty of money in politics and plenty opportunity to spend money?
MCCAIN: You know, you make a very good point, Aaron, because this will not end money in politics. And it is a modest proposal, but what it'll immediately is take $500 million out of the political campaigns. It won't take effect until the next campaign season, as you know, after November. And it will be people trying to find loopholes and it won't last forever. We tried to explain that every step of the way, but I do believe it will be a significant improvement.
BROWN: Are you concerned about vulnerability of any part of this in the courts?
MCCAIN: Yes. I believe that we are -- passed a bill that's constitutional. I wouldn't have voted if I didn't believe so, but there's no doubt that there will be a challenge, particularly on this so-called issue advocacy, 60 days before a general election, which by the way, is only banned if you use soft money, not if you use hard money.
BROWN: The argument being that it is an unconstitutional infringements on free speech?
MCCAIN: That's the argument. But what we're saying you're not prohibited from running ads, using a candidate's name or likeness. You just are restricted to $2000 contributions, which is what the candidate is restricted to.
Right now in South Dakota, there's a race going on. There's so many attack soft money ads going on, that both candidates are trying to get a truce declared, because they're all attack ads on each other, which they have no control over.
BROWN: Just a half a minute or so left. You must be extraordinarily happy tonight?
MCCAIN: I'm very happy. I'm grateful for friends like Russ Feingold, and Chris Shays and Marty Meehan, and so many people that were helpful in this effort. And yes, it's a good day. I feel good. And I think we have a lot of other reforming to do.
BROWN: Well, it will be interesting to see how much difference in fact it all makes. Senator McCain, we appreciate your time on such an important day. Thank you, sir.
MCCAIN: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Senator McCain on campaign finance, which passed the Senate.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, the dog mauling trial coming to an end. We'll get the latest from Los Angeles as NEWSNIGHT continues on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: What jurors in Los Angeles know tonight, the world may well know tomorrow. The jury has a verdict on all but one of the five counts against the San Francisco couple whose dog killed a neighbor. The attack was beyond gruesome. The trial has been sad, and at times, really strange.
Here again, Thelma Gutierrez in Los Angeles. Thelma?
GUTIERREZ: Aaron, strange is just one way to put it. Long is another. This trial is now in its fifth week. Jury deliberation began less than two days ago. Already the seven man, five woman jury have reached verdicts in four of five counts against defendants Marjorie Knoller and her husband, Robert Noel.
Now the couple is charged with involuntary manslaughter and owning a mischievous animal that kills. Knoller is additionally charged with second-degree murder, which carries a possible sentence of 15 years to life for the death of her neighbor, Dianne Whipple.
She was mauled to death by the couple's dogs more than a year ago. And it's anyone's guess just when the verdicts will be announced. They are being kept a secret until jurors have a chance to mull over the final charge.
Defense attorney Nedra Ruiz told reporters she believes jurors are hung up over count one, which is second-degree murder. Now that's speculation, because no one knows. Now following the orders of Superior Court Judge James Warn, the verdicts were sealed in an envelope for safekeeping for the night. Jurors will return to a task the judge has described as trying tomorrow morning -- Aaron.
BROWN: Thelma, thank you. Thelma Gutierrez. This is oddly like the Simpson case, which ended the same way. Verdict the night before.
An update now on a manhunt you don't hear too much about anymore. The fugitive was last seen in rugged territory, in an area hostile to outsiders, and somewhat beyond the reach of the law. Catching him was a long shot from the beginning. Since then, the trail has gone cold. And when asked about it, authorities tend to change the subject.
OK, we're not quite playing fair with you. This is not a bin Laden story. It's about the one here at home who got away. His name, you may remember, is Eric Robert Rudolph. And his story is from CNN's Brian Cabell.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He's on the FBI's most wanted list. Been there since 1998. Charged with four bombings in Atlanta and Birmingham, including the Olympic Park bombing.
CHARLES STONE, RETIRED CIA AGENT: I still believe Eric is still in western North Carolina, I believe he's still alive, and I believe that one day he'll be caught.
CABELL: At one point during 1988 during the search for Eric Rudolph, more than 200 federal and state agents combed the rugged Nantihillah (ph) Mountains in western North Carolina, not far from where Rudolph lived before fleeing. Agents were convinced they were hot on his trail.
(on camera): But that was four years ago. Investigators now concede they've just about run out of leads in the case. And they've all but shut down the investigation into the disappearance of Eric Rudolph.
(voice-over): The Southeast Bomb Task Force, which led the Rudolph investigation, will soon abandon its headquarters near the FBI field office in Atlanta. Most of the dozen agents working the case will be reassigned. And by June, the fugitive part of the investigation is supposed to be transferred to the Charlotte field office.
It was only the Salt Lake City Winter Olympics that kept the task force going at full speed. Officials wanted to be prepared just in case Rudolph decided to reappear. There hasn't been a live sighting of him since the summer of 1998.
TODD LETCHER, FBI: We need to send a message that we're not going away, that this case is a top priority. We're going to find Eric Rudolph.
CABELL: That was the official line last summer. It's a still the official line. But agents, who've already spent $30 million trying to track him down will now spend much less time on him. That leaves Emily Lyons, a nurse who was maimed in the bombing, allegedly committed by Rudolph in 1998 to wonder whether she'll ever see Rudolph brought to justice.
EMILY LYONS, BOMBING VICTIM: Well, if he's like the Unabomber that takes so long to be caught, I may be gone by then. I'd love to have it happen while I'm still alive and fairly young. Reality, I'm not sure if that will happen.
CABELL: The FBI's mission has changed since September 11. It's using more agents to try to prevent future acts of terrorism. Some of the agents could come from this investigation, which it says has basically come to an end.
Brian Cabell, CNN, Andrews, North Carolina.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Coming up, the real Walter Scott. This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: All right, this is an absolutely true story. And it's a little bit embarrassing to tell it all with the guest sitting next to me. But the woman who does PR for NEWSNIGHT, the absolutely wonderful Kyra Frank, walked in my office one day with a look on her face that said she just won the lottery.
"Walter Scott wants to interview you," she beamed. "What," said I. "Walter Scott," she said. Said I, "Doesn't he write that sort of goofy column in 'Parade' magazine?" Kyra looked at me as if I had just cursed in church. That goofy column, she pointed out, is read by 77 million people a week. "This is huge," she said. And so it was. Then I found myself fielding questions about my life, my wife, my cooking, my golf game, and I think my guitar. And darn near every person I know has told me saw the piece, which goes to show you about that goofy column, doesn't it?
Walter Scott is a legend. And until the other day, few people knew who he really was. But they do now. He was more or less outed by "The Boston Globe." And he is the most unlikely personality columnist, I think it is fair to say.
So who are you really, Mr. Scott?
ED KLEIN, COLUMNIST: I'm Ed Klein.
BROWN: You're Ed Klein. Now here's -- you've been Walter Scott for how long?
KLEIN: 11 years.
BROWN: And before you were Walter Scott, someone else was Walter Scott?
KLEIN: Lloyd Shearer was Walter Scott for 33 years.
BROWN: And was there ever a Walter Scott or was it just one of those names?
KLEIN: Only the person who wrote Ivanhoe and Rob Roy, but otherwise, no, there's never been a Walter Scott.
BROWN: Anybody know where it came from?
KLEIN: Well, I think the original Walter Scott in "parade" felt it sounded American. And he chose it because he wanted a nom de plume. BROWN: Now I asked you these questions when we talked that day, which was way back then. And it never occurred to me, I said, who are you really? Never occurred to me this was some big secret. Why has it been important that it was secret?
KLEIN: Well, you know, it was a secret because at one time, Lloyd Shearer, who wrote the column, also wrote other stories for "Parade". And they didn't want more than one of his byline in the magazine. But since I have taken over, it hasn't been that big a secret. It's just that nobody asked until "The Boston Globe" came along and said can we interview you? And we said, "OK."
BROWN: Because I know you never said to me, "I'll tell you these things, but don't..."
KLEIN: No.
BROWN: Now there are many sort of lucious things about this, but for a guy who now writes about clowns like me, frankly, and other more famous people, you've got a pretty decent resume as a journalist.
KLEIN: Thank you.
BROWN: "The New York Times" magazine editor, is that it?
KLEIN: Yes.
BROWN: And that was when?
KLEIN: From 1977 to 1988.
BROWN: And so how does one go from -- I'm sure you're asked this all the time.
KLEIN: Right.
BROWN: From writing about and editing really serious stuff, to writing about Britney Spears or me or whatever?
KLEIN: I don't see a real problem between being the editor of "The New York Times" magazine and being Walter Scott. Both jobs require a experienced journalist, who has sound news judgment. And in any case, the distinction, the old distinction between high culture and low culture has really blurred.
BROWN: Really?
KLEIN: Do you really believe that or is that what you say?
KLEIN: No, I really do believe it very much. I think, you know, for centuries, culture was defined by the elites.
BROWN: Yeah.
KLEIN: And then over the past 50 years or so, thanks to movies, radio, broadcast television, cable television, Internet, it's been -- the culture has been taken out of the hands of elites and given to the masses. Now this is, of course, a two edged sword. On the one hand, we've got a more democratic culture. On the other, a more course culture.
BROWN: Yeah, we do. About a minute left here. A couple of quick ones. Are the letters real?
KLEIN: Absolutely. I get a thousand letters a week, 50,000 a year. I don't have to make them up.
BROWN: And you obviously don't read 1,000 letters a week?
KLEIN: Well, I actually divide my letters between two piles. One for me and one for my assistant. And we each read about 500 letters.
BROWN: And how do you decide that, you know, Britney Spears is going in, and Joan Collins is not?
KLEIN: Well, it's you know, really in my gut.
BROWN: Yeah.
KLEIN: In other words, do I think this is the kind of personality that our readers are interested at that time?
BROWN: It is, and you obviously knew this long before I did, it is the most remarkably powerful column I've ever seen. And you know, this little thing in "People" and lot of other things. It is remarkable how many people read that every Sunday.
KLEIN: Well, you know, I was once interviewing Henry Kissinger. And he asked me, so what are you doing these days other than the interviews with me? And I said, well, I write the Walter Scott personality "Parade" column. He said, "I don't believe it. It's the first thing I read every morning on Sunday."
BROWN: I do believe it now. It's nice to meet you. And I enjoyed talking to you and I appreciated very much the column or the piece, or whatever we would call, the item.
KLEIN: Thanks for having me.
BROWN: Thank you, Ed Klein, Walter Scott, take your pick. Segment 7, a story about rumors, a terrific tale when NEWSNIGHT continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Segment 7 tonight, rumors. We heard them in those scary days after the 11th of September. They're pretty much a given after big and frightening events. The rumors, the urban legends that keep getting passed from person to person, and now of course on the Internet.
Mostly, they're harmless, the kinds of things we talk about or laugh about at the water cooler at the office. But this is a story about one that is been no joke at all. And it is a reminder of how easy it is to do wrong.
Here's CNN's Jeff Flock.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEFF FLOCK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): You wouldn't know it's the lunch rush at the Sheik Restaurant outside Detroit. Business is bad, down 50 percent, enough to make owner Dean Hachem cry.
DEAN HACHEM, OWNER, THE SHEIK: Sorry, you know, I work so hard in this life to build something for my kids.
FLOCK: What he built, ruined by this e-mail sent September 11. It says a nurse picking up her lunch order that afternoon saw the restaurant's employees "cheering as they watched the TV footage of our American tragedy. Do not patronize this restaurant," said the message. "And please pass the word."
One problem with the story about the celebrating.
DICK PURTAN, WOMC RADIO: It didn't happen.
FLOCK: Detroit radio personality Dick Purtan finished his shift and went to the Sheik for lunch that day. Neither he nor anybody else saw any cheering.
PURTAN: You could hear a pin drop. There wasn't a sound. Nobody was shouting "hurray" at all.
FLOCK: Hachem also has security cameras to prove his point.
These cameras, how many of them do you have?
HACHEM: 12.
FLOCK: He checked them all. No cheering there.
HACHEM: He's picking up his tray. The one guy doing his work. Look at that, the busboy, he's carrying the water glasses.
FLOCK: And he called everybody who picked up a takeout order that day. He'd saved the slips.
HACHEM: Everybody said, when we came and picked up the carryout, all what were we saw were is the sad faces.
FLOCK: But some were still not convinced.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just feel funny going there. I just feel funny going there.
FLOCK: And it wasn't enough to stop the story from spreading on the Internet.
HACHEM: This was 9/13. Okay. Look how many people it went to -- one page, two page, three page, four page.
FLOCK: People kept calling, leaving messages.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hope you guys go bankrupt because of it.
FLOCK: And then there were the letters. "If I was there on September 11," said one, "a lot of you would have had to make trips to the local hospital to be put back together." What is Dean Hachem's attitude about all of this? Believe it or not, patriotism.
HACHEM: Even what's happened to me, and it hurts me very much, but this is my country. And I will do whatever I have to do to fight for it. Absolutely.
FLOCK: Still to this day?
HACHEM: Still to this day, until the day I die.
FLOCK: For now, he'd be happy with a bigger lunch crowd.
I'm Jeff Flock, CNN in west Bloomfield, Michigan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: We leave you tonight with two images from ground zero today. The first, a kind of image we've seen a lot of, the recovery of a body. In this case, it is the remains of New York police officer Moreia Smith, the only woman police officer killed that day. New York city police officer and only the second in history to die in the line of duty. That was earlier. And Steve Dullchy of our staff saw this today. The lights at ground zero and the clouds moving over the scene tonight. We're off tomorrow. We'll see you again on Friday. Good- night for all of us.
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