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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Dog Owners Found Guilty of All Charges in Mauling Trial; Pope Condemns Sexual Abuse

Aired March 21, 2002 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening. I am Fredricka Whitfield in for Aaron Brown.

Tonight, a strange and somewhat disturbing complement of developments deserving of our attention. In our own back yard, and beyond our borders, Americans trying to find or make peace, or better yet promote healing. In recent years, we've all at some time or another, covered our ears to the whisperings of unthinkable alleged sins of the Catholic priests.

But now, universal outrage, glaring proof some of the church's highest ranking holy leaders here and abroad have done the same, closed their ears. A litany of child molestation victims can tell you how it has forever changed or ruined their lives.

In California, it wasn't the Catholic Church, but the owners of two Herculean dogs who were in denial. Tonight a group of seven men and five women in a Los Angeles court collectively decide silence can not just harm, but kill.

A 33-year-old woman no longer alive to talk about her fears, hopes or dreams. Tonight lessons for all of us at home, in our communities, in our churches, about the roles we all can play to keep some peace.

We begin with the whip around the world, beginning with the dog mauling verdict in Los Angeles. Charles Feldman has been covering that for us. Charles.

CHARLES FELDMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Fredricka, a Murder conviction in the dog mauling trial here in Los Angeles. Pet owners beware. I'll have that story in a few minutes. Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Another day of bloodshed in Jerusalem. Christiane Amanpour was on the scene today. Christiane, what do you have for us there?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, three people were killed and about 40 people were injured in that suicide bombing, which came right in the middle of U.S. brokered peace talks, ceasefire talks, between the Israelis and the Palestinians. The next few days will be crucial. Will those truce talks survive, and will it be deemed sufficient for Yasser Arafat to get his promised meeting with Dick Cheney, the U.S. Vice President?

WHITFIELD: OK and on to the President's trip to Latin America. Kelly Wallace is in Monterey, Mexico with the President. Kelly.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good evening to you, Fredricka, the President beginning his Latin American tour, reacting to more acts of terror with some tough talk, some of it directed at the Palestinian leader and some of it at those responsible for the car bombing in Peru. Mr. Bush saying he will definitely still keep his plans travel there on Saturday. The President saying, "no two-bit terrorist will keep them away." Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: A very different story out of the Vatican. The Pope responds to the sexual abuse scandal involving priests. Alessio Vinci is in Rome covering that. Good even, Alessio.

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN ROME BUREAU CHIEF: Well good morning from Rome, Fredricka. The Pope speaks out on the sex abuse scandal. He did not do it personally or publicly. Instead he sent a letter to priests around the world, which is something he does every year. He called the sex abuse the worst form of evil possible. It is a sign the Pope is deeply concerned about the issue, and also he wants to do something about it. Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, thanks Alessio. Well, back with all of you in a moment. A lot coming up on NEWSNIGHT, we'll have an in-depth look at one issue that's become the centerpiece of a huge debate in education over the past decade. Can a private company do a better job teaching kids, and make a profit at the same time? The latest experiment is ongoing in Philadelphia, and we'll take a look at that tonight.

And September 11th, the images we know so well. There are some people who aren't familiar with them all in Afghanistan. Tonight, we'll see them seeing it for the first time.

We begin tonight with the dog mauling case in Los Angeles, not because that's where the crime took place, but where the trial was carried out. The dog mauling in San Francisco was so gruesome, the details so lurid, the trial had to be moved to southern California. The central question jurors had to decide, whether dog owners Marjorie Knoller and Robert Noel knew their Presa Canarios were capable of killing and whether the owners recklessly ignored that.

The jury said resoundingly yes, the owners did know it and yes, they ignored it. Thirty-three-year-old Diane Whipple, a neighbor of the couple died as a result. Here again is Charles Feldman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FELDMAN (voice over): With that, Marjorie Knoller whose dog mauled Diane Whipple to death last year becomes the first person in California to be found guilty of Murder for a crime a pet committed.

Both Knoller and her husband, Robert Noel, were found guilty of lesser charges, including Involuntary Manslaughter. Prosecutors charged Knoller with Murder and not her husband because she was with the giant 100-plus pound Presa Canario dog when it attacked Whipple in their San Francisco apartment building.

The trial was moved to L.A. to find a fairer jury. During the trial, defense lawyers claimed Knoller tried to pry her dog off the young woman. Prosecutors countered, Knoller knew the dogs were dangerous.

DON NEWTON, JURY FOREMAN: She was not really heeding any of the warnings that had been given and that there was no way that this could have been avoided. It could have happened at any time, and that that is malice.

FELDMAN: During the trial, Knoller took the stand in her own defense, but any words of contrition clearly fell on jurors' deaf ears. She now faces a sentence of 15 years to life, and her husband faces up to four on his Involuntary Manslaughter conviction. Diane Whipple's domestic partner is pleased with the verdict, her feelings tempered by the fact that the woman she loved is now dead.

SHARON SMITH, WHIPPLE'S DOMESTIC PARTNER: It's been a long 14 months, and a lot of that time was spent focusing on this moment. So it's a very emotional moment for me.

FELDMAN: After the verdicts were announced, the prosecutor revealed that throughout the trial, he carried with him Diane Whipple's championship Lacrosse ring, a prized possession she was wearing the day she died.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FELDMAN: Now this tragic case will move back to San Francisco where it all began in about two weeks' time. The California Department of Probation will issue its report and the judge has set May the 10th as the date that he will pronounce the sentence. Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: And still to come as well, Charles, the family is pursuing its civil suit. What do we know about when that would take place? What are the chain of events to take place?

FELDMAN: Well, there's going to be - you're quite right. There's going to first be a civil suit that will be filed. That's likely to happen over the next few weeks. They had to, of course, wait for the jury verdict in the criminal case. And also, there is an appeal planned on the part of the two who are now the husband and wife that were found guilty in this case. They plan to file an appeal, because this was an extraordinary case. It was, as I said earlier, without precedence here in California, and it is likely to be a very interesting case when and if it reaches the appellate division.

WHITFIELD: All right, thanks very much, Charles Feldman, from Los Angeles. This has been an enormously painful case for many of Diane Whipple's loved ones, especially her mother, Penny Whipple Kenny, along with her lawyer, Ron Rouda. They join us now from Los Angeles. Good evening to all of you. RON ROUDA, ATTORNEY: Good evening.

PENNY WHIPPLE-KENNY, MOTHER OF DIANE WHIPPLE: Good evening.

WHITFIELD: Now Diane Whipple's partner, Sharon Smith, said that this verdict was not one of joy but one of justice. How do you see it, Ms. Kelly?

KELLY: I echo that. I feel that the charge of Second Degree Murder was justice in this case, because Noel and Knoller knew what their dogs could do and they just didn't care. To them, these animals were more important than their neighbors and that was proved over and over again in court.

WHITFIELD: How disturbing is it to you though, knowing that Ms. Knoller - Knoller and Mr. Noel are likely to be appealing this, the wheels are in motion to do that?

KELLY: Well, I don't know. It's like a one step at a time process, but today I'm glad that they got the guilty verdict, so at least they got it for now. So that's the best we can ask for for today. And also, as I heard you mention, we will be pursuing a civil case against both Noel and Knoller and the apartment owner and management for ever letting these dogs in the apartment, or if they had let them in, they should have been muzzled.

WHITFIELD: When Marjorie Knoller took the stand and testified that she did all she could to try and pull the dogs off Diane, that she herself found herself struggling to control the dogs, particularly one of the dogs, the lead dog Bane. What were your thoughts when you heard or saw Ms. Knoller on the stand?

KELLY: Well, I didn't believe that story at all, and later on a rebuttal witness testified that Dr. Lockwood had said that from the bite inhibition and whatnot that she couldn't have been covering my daughter. And I didn't understand how she could be covering my daughter and pulling the dog off at the same time. The whole thing didn't - her story never made sense to me.

WHITFIELD: Mr. Ruda -

KELLY: And what -

WHITFIELD: I'm sorry, go ahead.

ROUDA: Yes.

KELLY: I was going to say what incited me so much was the fact that they never said they were sorry. They never claimed any responsibility for any of the dog's actions. I mean I could see if you had said "oh, you were terribly sorry. This was a tragic accident" or something, but they never said that. So they knew that it wasn't an accident and I don't think that they cared that much to even do anything to prevent it.

WHITFIELD: And Mr. Ruda, apparently the jurors felt the same way, that they did not see the kind of remorse, nor did they see the believability coming from Ms. Knoller. That testimony certainly did not help that case.

ROUDA: Certainly, Jim Hammer and the District Attorney, Kimberly Newsome (ph), they all presented a very powerful case and the jury found for the Murder 2 conviction implied malice, and that under the court's instructions, supported the fifth count. But we're proceeding, of course, with the civil case after this. The civil suit has already been filed, and it will be consolidated with the action by Sharon Smith. And so both Penny Whipple-Kelly and Sharon Smith will be bringing their actions together in the San Francisco Superior Court.

WHITFIELD: And what will they be seeking specifically? What can you reveal about this civil suit?

ROUDA: Under California law, if a wrongdoer kills a loved one, the surviving heirs, and in this case that would be Penny Whipple- Kelly and Sharon Smith, are entitled to recover damages for the wrongful death of the deceased, and that encompasses the loss of love, society, companionship, affection, support, guidance. And those losses and juries decide wrongful death verdicts in courtrooms all across the country on a daily basis.

WHITFIELD: And always difficult to put a dollar figure on that, so what do you find would be satisfactory to Diane's loved ones?

ROUDA: We're going to be sitting down, taking the depositions of the landlord, of the building manager. We're going to then have an assessment of the damages and determine it at the time of trial. It really isn't the right time to give a specific amount. In fact, California law doesn't permit the prayer of the complaint to specify the amount. But it really is a jury discretion matter and it will be up to the jury to decide what's reasonable and fair compensation for such an enormous loss.

WHITFIELD: Now, Penny, if this is -

KELLY: I would like to say that also one of my main reasons for pursuing this is the whole safety issue. I would not like to see another mother go through the kind of loss that I've suffered in this totally preventable way. I feel that apartment owners should be responsible for animals, or killer dogs in this case, that they let live in their apartments.

ROUDA: Had the landlord required a muzzle or a restraint, there were warning signs. These were ticking time bombs. This was a preventable death.

WHITFIELD: So, in what way are you hoping that this case, this verdict, might propel some legislation so that a resounding message is being sent to those who have potentially dangerous dogs, or those who simply have dogs?

ROUDA: I think the verdict itself tells the nation that owners of dogs and owners of buildings that allow vicious dogs to remain a threat to tenants, that they certainly can be held responsible and accountability is the key to prevention.

WHITFIELD: All right, Ron Rouda and Penny Whipple-Kelly, thanks very much for joining us from San Francisco this evening.

ROUDA: Thanks.

KELLY: Thank you for having us.

WHITFIELD: We head back to Israel in a moment, where it's a war between the peacemakers and the bomb makers. This is NEWSNIGHT for Thursday.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: This time last night there was cautious optimism in the Middle East, despite a deadly suicide bombing earlier in the day. Ceasefire talks went on and more were planned. We got word the Vice- President, who had just gotten back from the region might return to the Middle East for a visit with Yasser Arafat this weekend. A day later, all plans are off and the talk now centers on reprisals and retaliation. What a difference a day and another bombing can make. Not a pleasant day's work for CNN's Christiane Amanpour either.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR (voice over): It was about 4:15 in the afternoon. Israeli's have tried to keep away from this commercial district in the heart of West Jerusalem because of previous suicide bombings. But on this day, those who had to be there were caught in yet another attack.

GIL KLEIMAN POLICE SPOKESMAN: A suicide bomber entered a main street in Jerusalem, King George Street, blew himself up outside an eatery and a shoe store. As a result of that, we had two dead. One was pronounced dead on the scene. The other victim died later in hospital. We have about 40 wounded.

AMANPOUR: This attack comes just a day after another suicide bomber killed seven Israelis and wounded dozens more, aboard a bus in the north of the country. Palestinian sources told the media the latest suicide bomber was a member of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, a militant wing of Yasser Arafat's fatah movement.

AMANPOUR (on camera): The terrible irony is that this attack comes at a time when Yasser Arafat is perceived to have been scoring points, not only being involved in ceasefire talks, but also being offered a political horizon as well. This attack also comes right at a time when Israeli and Palestinian security officials are meeting to try to hammer out that ceasefire.

AMANPOUR (voice over): A third meeting between security officials and U.S. Envoy Anthony Zinni scheduled for Thursday night was immediately postponed. An Israeli government spokesman blamed Yasser Arafat for the carnage, even as Arafat condemned the bombing and all attacks against Israeli civilians.

YASSER ARAFAT (through translator): We strongly condemn this operation that happened in Jerusalem today, especially that it was directed against innocent Israeli civilians. We will take all immediate necessary measures to stop those kind of actions and to stop those behind it.

AMANPOUR: As Israel ponders its next move, some citizens on the scene are urging harsh retaliation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think the Arabs only understand force and that's what needs to be done.

AMANPOUR: And Israelis who believe in the peace process are once again plunged into despair.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it just makes me want there to be peace. I want them to put a stop to it. I don't know whether that means using more force or more negotiation. But neither one seems to be working.

AMANPOUR: This suicide bomber detonated his deadly charge right below a banner that proclaimed, "we want to live in peace." The blood on the wall shows how far away peace still is. Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: This latest round of the peace process came at the reluctant urging of the White House, the administration needing progress there to win Arab support for the confrontation with Iraq. So today's setback is being taken very seriously, the President making that very plain. He's in Mexico tonight and so is CNN's Kelly Wallace.

WALLACE: Well, Fredricka, the President taking it very seriously indeed. The President was, in fact, on his way to his first stop, El Paso, Texas, when he learned of this latest suicide bombing in Israel.

Then a number of things happened. Aboard Air Force One, Secretary of State Colin Powell calling Palestinian Leader Yasser Arafat, giving him quite a tongue lashing, according to U.S. officials, and then Mr. Bush deciding to use his speech at a rally in El Paso to step up the pressure on the Palestinian leader even more.

Mr. Bush saying quite clearly he thinks the Palestinian leader needs to do much, much more to crack down on the violence, the administration clearly growing more and more frustrated. It appears the administration is sending a message to the Palestinian leader, either he takes more steps now or a much desired meeting with the Vice-President sometime next week looking more and more doubtful indeed.

Now the President also on this day reacting to another act of terror, a car bombing outside the U.S. Embassy in Lima, Peru. At least nine people dead. Mr. Bush to travel to Peru on Saturday. The President before he left the White House this morning asked about the violence, asked if he was concerned about making the trip, a very tough talking Mr. Bush saying he would not be intimidated and that that trip will still definitely go on.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm still going. I'm sure President Toledo will do everything he can to make Lima safe for our trip. You know, two-bit terrorists aren't going to prevent me from doing what we need to do, and that is to promote our friendship in the hemisphere.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE: And, Fredricka, senior U.S. officials saying the President's security team definitely reassessing the situation after that car bombing, but finding so far nothing that would cause them to change the President's plans. Of course, security was going to be tight. It will be even tighter with the President being the first U.S. President, sitting U.S. President, to visit Peru.

Now the President in Mexico really to put the focus on the war on poverty. During the summit meeting on Friday, Fredricka, look for the President to link the War against Terror with the war on poverty, the President to say that terrorists often taking advantage of poor nations. The President to announce a $5 billion increase in U.S. assistance to the developing world. But, Fredricka, also look for the President to get some criticism. Many people think the U.S., the world's richest nation, should be doing much, much more. Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, thanks very much. Kelly Wallace from Monterey, Mexico. Well ahead on NEWSNIGHT, the bloodshed and the efforts to stop the violence. Author David Shipler is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: When you're putting on a television program, there's one scene you want after days like today. After suicide bombings in the Middle East, you want to find someone who can try to predict what's going to happen next and when predictions are impossible, of course, to at least try to explain what is going on. Tonight, we have a friend of this program author David Shipler, he's in Washington this evening. Thanks for joining us.

DAVID SHIPLER, AUTHOR: Good evening.

WHITFIELD: Well, it's always hard to tell exactly what's going to happen next, particularly in the Middle East. Violence always seem to beget violence. So we've got yet another car bombing today, another suicide bombing rather today. It is likely, some predict, that there may be mayhem yet again tomorrow. How do you see it?

SHIPLER: Well, I'm glad you said that predictions are impossible, because of course it's not really wise to predict events in the Middle East, but it's certainly clear that this cycle is not at an end yet.

You know, one of the problems has been that two very big bedrock issues have been exposed during this entire year and a half of violence, and even from before that. One of them is who will possess Jerusalem and the other is the Palestinians demand of the right of return to villages that were destroyed in the 1948 War of Independence, Israel's War of Independence.

These are issues that are not discussed very much now in the midst of this violence, but they lie at the heart of the conflict. Many Palestinian clerics, Islamic clerics, and Arafat too have said, you know, Jews had no temple here in Jerusalem. They have no history here. They have no rights here, and that hits, touches a nerve for Israelis because it seems to say to them they have no belonging there. They have no legitimacy there, and that's a very important issue for many Israelis.

The other one, the right of return is also critical because Palestinian children in refugee camps are being raised to believe that they have every right to go back to villages that they've never seen, that haven't existed, in fact, since 1948, villages where their grandparents were either expelled by the Israelis or fled.

And again, that says to the Israelis that the Palestinians, at least some factions of them, claim all of Israel as Palestine and want very much to go back to lands that are inside Israel proper now, not just the West Bank and Gaza, where they want Israelis to withdraw but inside Israel itself, and these two issues are critical and they have to be resolved before you can have any kind of settlement or agreement.

WHITFIELD: And so with all these barriers, it's no wonder why it's difficult to get the two sides to the table talking.

SHIPLER: Yes, although you know in the process of negotiations, you begin to create some kind of momentum hopefully toward some resolution that both sides will see being in their interest.

I mean one of the problems from the Palestinian perspective has been that during all of these years of peace talks, before this intafada broke out, there was not really a sense of momentum toward a Palestinian state.

The Palestinians looked around on the West Bank and Gaza and they saw Israeli settlements being expanded actually, bypass roads being built between the settlements and Israel proper, Israeli Jews would not have to travel through Arab villages to get to the settlements and they interpreted that, and I think rightly so in some cases, as evidence that Israel did not really intend to leave those territories.

WHITFIELD: Then you hear things -

SHIPLER: There was no sense that this was going to result in a Palestinian state, and that fueled a great deal of rage among Palestinians.

WHITFIELD: And if you hear and listen to some of the recent interviews of Palestinians and Israelis there, even Israelis are acknowledging that the Palestinians are being treated like an invisible people and that is exactly the sentiment of some of the Palestinians who've been willing to talk of recent days.

SHIPLER: There is a very strong conscience in Israel, actually, and Palestinians find that difficult to see beneath the brutality that goes on, but there is a conscience among many Israelis. There is a sense of yearning for justice, and I think if the Palestinians were to use that conscience, were to protest non violently for example, they'd find most Israelis very anxious to get out of the West Bank and Gaza to give them a Palestinian state, if the Israelis could believe that this would bring security to Israel.

WHITFIELD: So, David, quickly within a couple of seconds, that's all we have left for this evening, do you think it is wise that Vice- President Cheney still make pursuits to perhaps meet with Yasser Arafat as early as this weekend or next week?

SHIPLER: Well, it's wise in the sense that the United States does have to use its good offices to try to tap down this violence, yes. I mean, I don't think we can solve the problem for Israelis and Palestinians. They've got to figure out the agreement, but we can help them get to the table. And if Vice President Cheney can push in that direction, that's worth doing.

WHITFIELD: OK, David Shipler, thanks for joining us this evening.

SHIPLER: Thanks for having me.

WHITFIELD: Well, coming up next, Pope John Paul addresses the growing scandal in the Catholic church. But how far do his words really go? This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Pope John Paul weighed in today on the issue of sexual abuse and the priesthood. His words came at the end of his yearly letter to clergy. Even as the letter was read, another scandal came to light, this time in Washington, D.C.

The archbishop there suspending a monsignor, after allegations of sexual misconduct involving two girls. As for the pontiff's message, the language was indirect. The message expressing sympathy for victims, but also showing concern for the church's reputation. It's that second part that may not go over well with parishioners, who say this concern for the church and for the clergy comes at the expense of the victims.

Again here's CNN's Alessio Vinci.

VINCI (voice-over): Pope John Paul II often expresses his opinion on world events openly from the window of his study overlooking St. Peters Square. But he chose his annual letter to priests around the world to address the delicate issue of sex abuse by clergymen.

The content of the letter was outlined to the media by Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, head of the congregation for clergy. The issue of sex abuse buried at the very end of the 22-page letter. In the letter, the pope says, "as priests, we are personally and profoundly afflicted by the sins of some of our brothers who have betrayed the grace of ordination," adding that "the scandal was casting a dark shadow of suspicion over all priests."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sexual abuse against a priest.

VINCI: Reporters were allowed to ask follow-up questions, but Cardinal Hoyos preferred to answer them by simply reading a prepared two-page statement. He essentially said the Catholic church has never neglected the problem of sexual abuse and always defended public morality and common good. He also argued there are no statistics comparing pedophilia among clergymen to other social groups.

"About 3 percent of the American clergy would have tendency to abuse minors, and 0.3 percent of the total clergy would be a pedophile," says Castrillon Hoyos. "I'd like to see," he says, "statistics regarding other social groups, and how much they have paid to victims."

The Roman Catholic church has already paid hundreds of millions of dollars around the world to settle sex abuse cases. But senior Vatican officials say it is time for those who are proven guilty to pay out of their own pockets.

"The economic aspect has burdened local churches," says Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone. Also, he says, for a strange juridical approach, which calls for the church as an institution to pay for an illicit act committed by a single person.

(on camera): And other Vatican officials begin to say privately that the funds available to pay those kind of settlements are not unlimited. And they also worry that more and more alleged victims would begin to sue the church, primarily to seek financial compensation -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: And Alessio, any mention at all? It seems as though the Vatican was pretty tight-lipped about responding to reporter's questions, but about on the issue of celibacy? There have been so many who have outspoken in recent days, who have said that perhaps it's time to change the rules? Any comment from the Vatican on that?

VINCI: Well, the comment of the Vatican is that this is an issue that has already been discussed. And the answer is no discussion over whether the celibacy or -- will have to be put in question, whether that should be lifted, the mandatory celibacy to become a priest.

But the Vatican here is pretty much confirmed that this is not a discussion that they want to bring about especially in the case of pedophilia. They're also being extremely firm in saying that there is no connection between celibacy, pedophilia, and the sex scandals, meaning that there are a lot of pedophiles around the world who are married men. So there's no connection as far as the Vatican is concerned here.

WHITFIELD: All right. Thanks very much. Alessio Vinci from Rome this evening.

Well, the latest now on the case of Daniel Pearl, the American journalist kidnapped and killed in Pakistan. The chief prosecutor in the case said today he has enough evidence to bring a murder charge against the main suspect, even though Pearl's body has not been found. The indictment is expected tomorrow, charging Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh and three alleged accomplices with murder, kidnapping and terrorism. A federal grand jury here in the U.S. indicted Saeed Sheikh last week.

Back now to the dog mauling verdicts in Los Angeles. Prosecutor Jim Hammer has said that the two dogs were time bombs, saying it was not a question of whether someone was going to be mauled, just when and who and where.

Jim Hammer has arrived back in San Francisco. And he joins us now this evening. Well, congratulations, Mr. Hammer, on the verdict that you had been looking for. But was there ever a time during this trial that you thought perhaps it might be a long shot that you might actually be able to secure these guilty verdicts?

JIM HAMMER, PROSECUTOR: To be honest, I always thought it was a long shot we get the murder conviction. I thought it was the right charge and we fought as hard for it, but there's never been a murder conviction in California before, for a dog attack. The manslaughter felt stronger. And we believed in a murder, but frankly, until the very last minute, we knew it was a very tough long shot.

WHITFIELD: It was a really huge risk that you took. What inspired you to take such a risk from the beginning?

HAMMER: Well, actually, it was the grand jury. Mr. Howland and I decided to put this case in front of jury so the citizens of San Francisco could decide what the appropriate charges were. We originally submitted an indictment to them with only manslaughter, but also gave them the murder instructions. And then they called us back in two hours and said we want to add murder. Can we do that? And we said, "Of course. You're the grand jury." And with that, they gave us a very tough task that we've been working on for the last year.

WHITFIELD: It's precendent setting on so many levels, particularly including the verocity of such a breed of dog here, but even more so because you helped portray or paint a picture to the jurors that anyone could have been a Diane Whipple. Anyone who lived in an apartment complex, in a community like setting, tight quarters such as this?

HAMMER: Yes. What was so terrible, frankly, and that was -- I think you repeated one of my closing arguments a moment ago, was based upon these 30 prior incidents of a pregnant woman, of a little boy walking to school, of people in the building being lunged at in the elevator, it really was a question of not if, but who, and when, and where something like this was going to happen.

Diane Whipple herself was bitten five or six weeks before she was killed. And for these defendants to keep on acting like they were with utter disregard for her was really outrageous. And I think that's what's led the jury to the murder conviction.

WHITFIELD: How do you suppose you scored points, so to speak, with the jurors? What was it about your witnesses, your 77 photos of very brutal, graphic photographs of Diane Whipple? Or was it exactly what you said and how you said it that you suppose won over the jurors?

HAMMER: Well, I think the real key to the case was the evidence. And that was through the San Francisco Police Department and our own investigators. We did 14 search warrants throughout California. And the letters we found are really what led us to the heart of what they were thinking, after these people knew the dogs were dangerous.

And then, we put on a very methodical case. We ignored extraneous issues. And I think really brought it together in this closing argument, which I feel very proud about, but which our whole team worked on.

WHITFIELD: We spoke with Diane's mother moments ago, Penny Whipple-Kelly, who said it is her hope at this point that this case might be, you know, the launching pad for some sort of legislation or changes or some sort of reform as it pertains to people with potentially vicious dogs.

HAMMER: That's already happening. Well, that's already happened in California. Mr. Howland proposed legislation and Assemblywoman Megnan (ph) passed a law which expanded the old law to go beyond just owners of dogs, and also to go beyond cases just in which a person's killed.

I hope that Diane Whipple's death I think will actually save people's lives. I think people across the country now know that if they have dogs that bite and lunge, that they have a very high responsibility to protect other people's safety. And I really believe that Diane Whipple's death will safe other people's lives.

WHITFIELD: All right, prosecutor Jim Hammer from San Francisco. Thanks very much for joining us this evening. I know it sounds very strange to say congratulations on -- particulary a gruesome case such as this one, but I know this is the verdict that you and the family members were looking for. Thanks for joining us tonight.

HAMMER: It's a victory for justice. Thank you.

WHITFIELD: Well next on NEWSNIGHT, schools that are clearly in need of help. Can a company, a company out to make a profit, no less, really be the answer?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: The question of fixing public schools is probably the biggest, most important question in education today. And answering that question is sure to spark a huge amount of debate no matter what you come up with.

One of the most controversial ideas over the past decade or so has been the use of for profit companies. The best known is Edison Schools. It hasn't been clear whether for profit schools have done any better than public ones, but some school districts are still ready to give it a try. And Philadelphia is one of them. Tomorrow, the city is expected to announce how many schools will be taken over by private companies.

We sent Kathy Slobogin to look at how privatization is working at a school just outside Philadelphia.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHILDREN: To obey and respect what teachers must say.

KATHY SLOBOGIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This could be the future of Philadelphia schools.

CHILDREN: To make our great school one of the best.

SLOBOGIN: Wetherill Elementary is one of 10 schools in Chester, just outside Philadelphia, run by Edison Schools, the nation's largest for profit school company.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Raise your hand if you know the country.

SLOBOGIN: Edison is one of several private companies in the bidding to run up to 100 schools in Philadelphia in the largest private takeover of public schools in history. It's all part of a state plan to rescue Philadelphia schools, schools that have failed so badly that Pennsylvania's governor charged they're "hemorrhaging children's futures."

(on camera): The state believes the system is in too much trouble to right itself. More than half of Philadelphia school children score below the most basic level on state tests. 83 percent of 11th graders don't read well enough to understand the local newspaper.

JIM NEVELS: This is a district in cardiac arrest. It's a patient that is on life support.

SLOBOGIN (voice-over): Jim Nevels, the businessman appointed to direct the reform effort, says district resources were badly mismanaged.

NEVELS: Checks were written. And a balance was kept without regard to how much money was in the till.

SLOBOGIN: Edison, with 136 schools around the country, says it can turn around failing schools and make money in the process, although it has yet to turn a profit.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What else can we adjust to give you more time?

SLOBOGIN: Collaboration between teachers and principals is one Edison hallmark. Longer days and a longer year are another. There are laptops for the teachers. By next year, kids will be sent home with desktops.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were very happy, that spider family.

SLOBOGIN: Central to Edison is a laser-like focus on reading. 90 minutes every day, without interruptions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, then it started to snow; right?

SLOBOGIN: To keep reading groups small, everyone, even the gym teacher, is pressed into service.

JUAN BAUGHN, EDISON ADMINISTRATOR: If we don't do what we should be doing with these young folks, that 50 to 60 percent of them won't make it through 12th grade.

SLOBOGIN: After 30 years in public education, Dr. Juan Baughn quit as Chester's superintendent, frustrated by a lack of resources. Initially skeptical about Edison's profit motive, he returned to manage the schools for the company when he saw the money, between $7 and $9 million, it was willing to invest.

BAUGHN: : The fact is, from a financial standpoint, Edison has done things for the young folks in this city that the city could not do. It's a fact.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let's give ourselves the dynamite cheer!

CHILDREN: Dynamite! Dynamite! Boom!

SLOBOGIN: But not everybody is cheering for Edison. Protests erupted last December when the state announced its takeover of the Philadelphia schools, and a possible prominent role for Edison. Critics mistrust the profit motive, and charge the city schools have been short-changed for years. In Philadelphia, high schools like this one, more than 30 students to a class is common. The schools get 25 percent less per pupil than the state average. Teachers say state tolerance of such inequities is what crippled the system in the first place.

TED KIRSCH, PHILADELPHIA TEACHERS UNION: We don't need Edison to come here, to tell what has to be done. We know what has to be done. What we need is for someone to come in and give us the money to do what we believe has to be done.

SLOBOGIN: Although Edison claims its schools out-perform similar public schools, critics question the company's numbers, saying Edison does no better than public schools. Jim Nevels is, so far, non- committal on what role Edison will play, but he has no doubts about the need for change.

NEVELS: Drastic measures are necessary because a child only goes to first grade once. And we cannot countenance four out of ten reaching that 4th grade level and not being able to read.

SLOBOGIN: While the grownups argue, he says, the children fall further and further behind. Kathy Slobogin, CNN, Philadelphia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SLOBOGIN: In a moment, ground zero as seen from Afghanistan. NEWSNIGHT for Thursday.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: We want to take you back to ground zero for a moment. 12 bodies have been found in the last two days. They come from a pile of rubble where the South Tower once stood. Among the 12, 10 were firefighters.

We've all gotten to know the protocol. Whenever a body is found, whether it is that of a fight fighter or a police officer or a civilian, the pit goes quiet. A human pathway is formed. The remains are covered and carried with a kind of gentleness. And for a moment, ground zero over is redeemed.

We leave you tonight though with another view of ground zero, the one not seen before. It comes from Afghanistan.

Here's Rosy Arce.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROSY ARCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over); In the kitchen at the restaurant Kaleed, free flowing water in a city of wells, plump red tomatoes in the chilly winter, lunchtime splendor in a land that's lean. A living metaphor for Kabul's resurrection. It was the box office for Cinema Zenab (ph), named for the daughter of the last Afghan king.

Then the Taliban destroyed it. Post September 11, it rose again with blaring televisions and songbirds. "The Taliban," says owner Mohammed Assef, "were blind, so they wanted to keep everybody blind." And they were so successful that most of his diners never even seen the events of September 11 that led to the reconstruction of their world.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [translated]. Nothing like this has ever happened to Americans in the entire history of the world. So everybody here wanted to see what it looked like. But the Taliban restrictions kept people from watching.

ARCE: Instead, they heard that something awful happened at some point in that month.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [translated]. Taliban were very happy. They were making celebration. They were being very happy much.

ARCE: So Kabulies called the entire episode September, as if the month were an event in itself. I showed them what they missed on 9/11, what September meant to me. Their September recalls sadness over the death of Northern Alliance Commander Massoud. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [translated]. "On September 9, Massoud died and we were sad and disoriented. Then came September 11, and satellite dishes and TV were banned. So people were really upset.

ARCE: And fearful over what they could not see or comprehend.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [translated]. The extremists were really, really happy when they heard about the attack. They kept talking about how a plane had hit the Pentagon and that the defense minister and some important generals might be inside.

ARCE: If the Taliban could attack a super power and kill the great Massoud, then what was to become of them?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [translated]. Massoud had been assassinated and now we kept wondering what will become of us and whether we were safe.

ARCE: But these pictures, they said, only confirm their subsequent thoughts on the war.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [translated] I knew that the Americans would react very severely against al Qaeda and the Taliban.

ARCE: And there complicated feelings of gratitude that a terrible tragedy led to their liberation from the Taliban.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [translated]. It was so very sad, such massive destruction and an attack on the U.S. economy, and on human beings.

ARCE: Like the attack they had been suffering daily at the hands of the Taliban, perhaps it took this, they said for the world to take notice.

Rose Arce, CNN, Kabul.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: And on some days here in New York, some people say it still feels like what some Afghans call September. I'm Fredricka Whitfield in for Aaron Brown. He'll be back tomorrow night. This is NEWSNIGHT. And I'll see you again tomorrow morning on "AMERICAN MORNING WITH PAULA ZAHN." Have a good night.

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