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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Prospects of Peace in Middle East Looking Bleaker with Escalating Violence

Aired April 01, 2002 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, NEWSNIGHT ANCHOR: I can't believe you're put me in the same sentence as baseball, knowing how you love baseball. Now, I know I am your main man again.

LARRY KING, LARRY KING LIVE: You're my main man again.

BROWN: Thank you. Nice to see you again, Mr. King.

And good evening again everyone. It's nice to see you as well. It is, however, not a terrific news days. It's hard not to be discouraged by the events in the Middle East. In truth, you could have said that on almost any day in the last 50 years and have been correct.

But these days especially have not been hopeful. They seem especially sad, and I think it's fair to say nothing we report tonight will make the news seem any brighter there, and in fact, will likely leave you even more discouraged.

We went away a week ago with the prospect of a ceasefire on the horizon and the U.S. government back in the Middle East game. A week later, the prospect of a ceasefire seems long gone. Funerals on both sides continue with heart-numbing frequency, and the administration seemingly unsure if it has any influence on any of the players anymore.

Lots of time on the Middle East tonight, and none of it pleasant, made worse by the fact that it did feel like spring today. The baseball season did open in New York. It is the most hopeful time in any year, spring, and looking out in the day's events, finding the hope the season brings is no easy task.

So we begin with the whip as we always do, with the reporters covering the major events around the world, and as we have for the last week and a half, we begin in Jerusalem. Christiane Amanpour reporting on events there, Christiane the headline please.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, there was yet another explosion in Jerusalem today, the sixth attack in this country in Israel in the last six days.

Even as Israel widens and deepens its military offensive, there are operations underway right now, and even as the Israeli defense minister tells us, he's not 100 percent sure whether this operation will work.

BROWN: Christiane, back with you shortly, to Ramallah now, a scary place to be a reporter these days or a resident or a soldier. Michael Holmes is there tonight, Michael the headline from you.

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, as Israel continues to widen what it calls its hunt for a terrorist network, what Palestinians call an occupation of their land, more gunfire and more death. Back to you.

BROWN: The options at the White House now for trying to end the violence. Andrea Koppel has been following that thread of the story tonight, so Andrea the headline from there.

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the Palestinians may be the ones under siege in the West Bank, but here in Washington, the Bush Administration is coming under rhetorical fire. Criticism from U.S. legislators, the Arab world, and the international community at large and so the Bush Administration has begun to fine-tune its Mid East message.

BROWN: Andrea back with you shortly too. Also today, the American Taliban back in court, John Walker Lindh. Kelli Arena covering the proceedings today, Kelli nice to see you and a headline please.

KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thank you, Aaron. Well attorneys for John Walker Lindh argued today for more access to witnesses, and for more information to help what legal experts say is a very difficult defense, and the defense team also accuses the government of destroying evidence. Aaron, back to you.

BROWN: Kelly, back to you and back to all of you shortly, a lot on the Middle East tonight as we said. Hear again from a Hamas spokesman. Hear his defense of what most people around the world, though not all, would call terrorism, pure and simple. We'll also talk to Gideon Meier (ph), a senior foreign ministry official in the Israeli government.

Of other things, we'll go to the Gulf of Mexico for an ecological mystery, why the water if black, where have the fish gone? And we'll talk with Jean-Michel Cousteau, and we'll close tonight with some of the most compelling images from the 11th of September, a lot of them taken by average New Yorkers, a display large enough for all of Times Square to see. Beth Nissin was there. All of that coming up.

We begin in the Middle East, a start of another bloody week. If as a guest on the program tonight believes, Palestinian support for the suicide bombing will eventually fade. It hasn't happened yet. As best we can tell, nothing even close to that has happened. There was another bombing today.

And despite plenty international criticism the Israelis have not pulled back and probably won't for weeks at least. Indeed, Israeli helicopter gun ships tonight opened fire in Bethlehem, and tanks began moving into that city. This is important both tactically and especially symbolically. Meantime, there s growing debate among Israelis about the wisdom of squeezing Yasser Arafat but not finishing him off. The headline today in a newspaper that traditionally supports the government read: "Will Sharon exorcise the devil Arafat or turn him into a saint?"

The questions, as they often are in the Middle East, are the easy part. The answers never are. We begin with CNN's Michael Holmes. Michael.

HOLMES: Aaron, that's right. Bethlehem, the latest scene of an incursion by Israeli troops, also helicopter gun ships firing on a place three buildings, according to Palestinian sources. Those sources also say that those helicopter gun ships fired into the streets, in their words, at anything that moved. Those tanks are facing gunfire in return. Palestinian security forces firing on them. There have been exchanges. All Israel will say so far is that an operation is underway.

There have been other actions around the West Bank as well, including Palestinians killing Palestinians. There were eight suspected collaborators in the West Bank town of Tulcarem (ph). They were in a safe house. Eight masked militants, Palestinians, came in yesterday and shot them dead, at least eight of them, and one spokesman told us this is not the time for collaborators.

Now here in Ramallah overnight, reports that the offices, the compound of the preventative security department under attack by Israeli tanks and armored vehicles. Jabeel Rajoob (ph), the head of preventative security inside that compound reporting that those tanks had opened fire.

What we can see from here about a mile and a half away is that there are the sounds of battle. All night there has been heavy tank shelling and automatic gunfire that we can hear from here. We can not see the compound, and we can not get there. It is simply too dangerous to travel in the dark. Elsewhere in Ramallah yesterday, more gunfire and more death.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES (voice over): The day began with house-to-house searches in downtown Ramallah. At a city of (inaudible) men, some in police uniforms, ordered out, searched, blindfolded, handcuffed and led away. Pro-Palestinian activists from two international groups are in Ramallah and elsewhere, dozens of them, perhaps more.

In this city, they're defying an Israeli imposed curfew. Here some trying unsuccessfully to intervene in the detentions. Israel says operations like this have netted several known terrorist, but it's a wide net. Innocent men often swept up with suspect ones. Soldiers prevented us getting any closer.

Those soldiers removed a number of weapons from the building, and invited us to film them. "Take a picture" the soldier said. Activists saying the men were policemen, counted.

LINSA MORGANTINI, ACTIVIST: This weapon (inaudible), the police can have the weapons.

HOLMES: Then just 20 steps away gunshots. Israeli troops at first confused about where it was coming from. It appeared to be a gunfight in a nearby building, but which building. Bullets flew towards the Israeli troops. Watch this soldier. He appears to be hit in the hand.

An armored vehicle moves in to protect him. Seconds later, Israeli soldiers ran out of the building. More shooting, then a vehicle mounted antiaircraft gun opens up on the building.

A wounded Palestinian man lays on the ground, calls for help as the firefight intensifies. We notice Israeli troops using our armored car for cover. Tank rounds hit the building. When the shooting dies down, the injured Palestinian man became the subject of a tug of war. Those international activists appear wanting to take him to the hospital. Israeli soldiers yelling, they would get medical care, not wanting to lose custody of a suspect. The man is taken away on a makeshift stretcher by the Israeli soldiers.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES (on camera): As a new day dawns here in Ramallah, Aaron, no sign of any loosening grip on this city nor on Yasser Arafat's own compound. Meanwhile, ordinary Palestinians, citizens of this city, several hundred thousand of them remain behind closed doors entering a fourth day. They have been without the opportunity to even go shopping in that time, as they have been listening, as we have, to the sounds of gunfire. Aaron.

BROWN: Michael, thank you. Michael Holmes tonight. As we mentioned, there was another suicide attack. A car bomb went off at a checkpoint in West Jerusalem today, killing the bomber, seriously wounding an Israeli policeman.

This was the sixth suicide bombing in as many days, which raises the question can they be stopped, a question that will come up often in the program tonight? It comes up for the first time with CNN's Christiane Amanpour, who spoke today with Israel's defense minister. Christiane, good evening.

AMANPOUR: Good evening indeed. There has been a second fatality now. The policeman who we had described as seriously wounded after this car bombing in Jerusalem earlier this evening. We are now told he has died of his wounds.

What happened, according to police, is that earlier this evening a car moved towards one of the many checkpoints in the city. When a policeman, thinking it was suspicious, tried to approach and check it, it exploded and that's when the driver was killed and the policeman was, at first, very seriously wounded. Now, as I say, he has been killed.

Now this as the screws are tightened on Yasser Arafat and Israel expands and increases its ring of steel around towns and villages in the West Bank. We spoke to the Israeli defense minister and we asked him what the plan was, what the strategy was. He told us that this would go on for as long as it took that Israeli military would go into whatever town and village he felt that they needed to go in, to try to "root out terrorism."

He admitted that he wasn't sure that this operation would work 100 percent, and he said that the perhaps in the short time, things may get worse.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BINYMIN BEN-ELIEZER, ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTER: Right now maybe there is a chance. This is not going to solve the problem, no, but it might reduce, I mean by putting somehow, by disconnecting Arafat from the other organizations, maybe there is a slight possibility that the situation will be reduced. As much as possible, at least we can work free on the ground, and try to do our job, and maybe this can help can help us towards it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Ben-Eliezer told us that he would give this operation about a week, to be able to judge whether it was effective, whether or not it was a success. He also went on in part in this conversation to tell us that perhaps he thought maybe potentially this may spread into a regional war. He was concerned about Syria and Lebanon, Hezbollah, attacking northern Israel.

He also told us that, while he couldn't guarantee an end to the suicide bombings, at least he was trying to minimize it and he hoped that would work. He wouldn't tell us whether there was any plan in case it didn't work and in case there was an escalation of suicide bombings.

He also said that his instructions had been very clear to his troops, that Yasser Arafat personally was not to be killed, was not to be harmed, but he would not be drawn on whether there was a contingency plan if there was more escalation and whether or not Yasser Arafat might eventually be exiled. Aaron.

BROWN: Christiane, as you well know, Israel is always a complicated political place. The defense minister is of the Labor Party, the Sharon - Prime Minister Sharon, Likud. Does the government in fact seem to be unified on the strategy at this point?

AMANPOUR: Well you raise a very good point, and in fact, the defense minister who is not only from the Labor Party, but the head of the Labor Party now, was quite clear in telling us that there were quite some differences in opinion, not only on strategy of what was going on, but also on the whole strategy towards Yasser Arafat personally, telling us that there was quite an argument about what to do about him, this on Friday in that emergency cabinet meeting.

Some want him exiled. Others wanted him isolated. So there is a difference of strategy, but he insists that there is a consensus that something had to be done. BROWN: Christiane, thank you. Christiane Amanpour in Jerusalem for us tonight. All of this, of course, leaves the Bush Administration with a very delicate balance to strike between condemning acts of terror and preserving Yasser Arafat, supporting Israel, but not alienating the Arab world. In any time this would be tricky, but necessary in the middle of America's own war on terror. It is trickier still and no less necessary.

So the President, as he has done countless times, again today called on Arafat to stop the killings, the suicide bombings, but stopped short of calling him a terrorist, a delicate, diplomatic position reported tonight by CNN's Andrea Koppel.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL (voice over): Faced with the worst violence in 18 months of bloodshed, the Bush Administration finds itself caught between a desire to achieve a ceasefire and its own policy of zero tolerance for terrorism.

President Bush made clear, while he holds Yasser Arafat responsible for stopping Palestinian terrorism, the U.S. does not believe Arafat is himself a terrorist.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Chairman Arafat has agreed to a peace process. He's agreed to the Tenet plan. He's agreed to the Mitchell Plan. He has negotiated with parties as to how to achieve peace.

KOPPEL: Over the weekend, President Bush justified Israel's military actions as necessary for its homeland defense, and showed no sympathy for Palestinians trapped in Ramallah. But after angry demonstrations in the Arab world and angry phone calls from Arab leaders, the Bush Administration clarified its message.

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The situation in the Middle East is, indeed, different.

KOPPEL: That's a distinction U.S. officials draw between terrorism by Palestinian suicide attacks against Israelis and groups like al Qaeda, and administration officials tell CNN there are four guiding principles that represent the bottom line for the U.S. in the Mid East.

Israel can not remove Arafat from power. Israel must end military occupation of Ramallah. Arafat must be seen to take steps to end Palestinian incitement and violence, and Special Middle East Envoy General Anthony Zinni must remain in the region as a reminder of the need to reach a ceasefire. But, one former adviser to President Clinton warns, the Bush team needs to rethink its strategy.

ROBERT MALLEY, INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP: The thought that we could now achieve a ceasefire and that the security steps that have been asked by the Palestinians for several months are even remotely achievable under current conditions, is completely detached from reality. (END VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL (on camera): Determined not to repeat what it views as the mistakes of the Clinton Administration's peace process, the Bush Administration is holding firm, Aaron, insisting it believes a ceasefire is possible. But at the moment, officials say there's not much the U.S. can do. Aaron.

BROWN: Andrea, thank you. Andrea Koppel tonight on the diplomatic and White House efforts there. Up next, we'll talk with both sides in this, a spokesman for Hamas, and a senior official of the Israeli foreign ministry. This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: In an old saying that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, it is one of those old sayings that makes more sense on paper than in reality, for at some level terror is terror, and Hamas whatever you think of its goals and grievances, practices terror. Its members may think of themselves as freedom fighters, but one of the weapons, the suicide bombings, is designed to promote terror among Israelis.

That was the backdrop for a conversation we had earlier this evening with Hamas spokesman Mahmoud al-Zahar, which began with my asking if the campaign of terror is working.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MAHMOUD AL-ZAHAR, HAMAS SPOKESMAN: Actually, it works because we sent a hot message for every Israeli that their security was threatened as our security is already threatened by the Israeli occupation.

The question is running of occupation means running of violence on both sides, so I think it will be worthy for everybody in Israel to convince the government that the big deterioration in their economy, the big deterioration in the tourist activity, the reverse immigration from what is called Israel to outside, and the bad attitudes of the Arabs towards the Israeli after establishment of two agreements with two big public states, now is a big aggression between the Arabic and the Israeli relationship.

For this reason, sooner or later we are going to reach the conclusion that they reach it to where they are occupying south of Lebanon, and for this reason, I think popular support, popular pressure in Israel will push the Israeli to think many times to leave the occupied territories -

BROWN: OK.

AL-ZAHAR: -- and to give the Palestinian side to have a chance to establish a state.

BROWN: If tomorrow Yasser Arafat said this has to end, would it end? Would the attacks on Israeli civilians end, if Arafat called for an end?

AL-ZAHAR: It is not sufficient actually for Mr. Arafat to go make an end for such armed struggle, because Israel is ready to stop their aggression against the Palestinians. Israel is ready to withdraw from the occupied territories. Israel is ready to release thousands of the Palestinian detainees.

Israel is ready to open our borders with Egypt and Jordan to make communication with Arabs, in order to improve our social and economical status. Israel is ready to give us a real chance to establish an independent state on our land.

There are a lot of (inaudible) because we previously responded to Mr. Arafat and we stopped our activities against the Israeli occupation, and that three weeks, Israel killed more than 30, captured more, arrested more than 300 and injured about 500. That was in the last January.

So for this reason we are calling what would be the price of ceasefire? If you have in America or in any area a golden solution to minimize our tension, to dismiss the occupation outside, I think this will be a good price for human beings here and for everybody, not only in the Palestinian side but also for the Israeli side.

BROWN: Sir, let me ask a final question. If you sit where we sit a long way away and you look at all that has gone on, do you ever say to yourself, "this is insane what is going on?" We have people, young men, young women blowing themselves up, killing other young men and young women. This is a kind of insanity for which no one's God can find acceptable.

AL-ZAHAR: This is it, but you are concentrating about one type of this. What is the difference between a soldier carrying M-16 made in America and shooting a child, a Palestinian child? This is this. Our children when they die actually, we are deeply depressed, and also we are trying to keep everybody clean, safe, but what about our nation? What about our goal? What about our children?

We spent our life under the occupation, suffered from deportation, from detention, from killing. Is that worth it for us to give our children the same future under the occupation or to make an end to such occupation? I'm sure that we have no option except to eliminate the occupation.

BROWN: We've made the argument. We've made the point. Sir, I appreciate very much your time. I hope we'll talk again soon. Thank you.

AL-ZAHAR: Most welcome.

BROWN: The Hamas spokesman, Mahmoud al-Zahar. Obviously Hamas is not the governing authority in the Palestinian territories, Palestinian area, but it is an important player. The Israeli government, of course, is the democratic government of Israel, and it is undergoing its own share of criticism. It's difficult to know with absolute certainty how to evaluate all the charges that are being leveled against the Israeli defense forces because it is simply very hard to report the story accurately for a variety of reasons.

Gideon Meir is a senior official in the Israel Foreign Ministry. Mr. Meir joins us tonight from Jerusalem. Welcome, sir. Let me begin with the same question I asked the Hamas representative. Is the terror campaign working? Is Israeli society terrorized?

GIDEON MEIR, SENIOR OFFICIAL, ISRAELI FOREIGN MINISTRY: The answer to your second part of your question is yes the Israeli society is right now bleeding. It is being terrorized. We have fear to send our children to school, to go to the supermarket, to go to the movie theaters. This is the goal of the Palestinian terrorist organizations, to terrorize our life.

But I have a surprise for them. They will achieve zero with terror. The only way to achieve something from the Israeli government or from the Israeli people is around the negotiating table. I would like to add one word. Mr. Zahar failed to tell you the truth. Their goal is to eliminate the State of Israel and to establish a Palestinian state on the whole length of Israel. So there's no negotiation for them. There's nothing whatsoever.

BROWN: Let's talk about a couple of, I guess, tactical questions. Do you have any concern that the aggressive stance that the Israeli government has taken by moving into the West Bank in the way it does, has at least the possibility of hardening positions, of making things worse not better?

MEIR: Look, the position can not be harder than they are now. Whole families here in Israel are being murdered just for the sake of murder. Yesterday, two families, a father, a daughter, a son were killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber. The suicide bombers don't know to differentiate between Arab families and Jewish families, so this must get a stop to it.

We must eradicate terror in order for peace to prevail, because with continuous terror, peace will never prevail in this region and the suffering is not just the suffering of the Israeli people. This is also the suffering that the Palestinian leadership is bringing about their own people.

BROWN: But isn't it at least possible, if not likely, that the way the Israeli government is operating now, in fact creates an environment that creates more suicide bombers, not fewer of them, that more people are willing to do this, that more killing will occur because of the position of the Israeli government?

MEIR: Look, between - if I may, between 1948 and '67, there was an occupation. Israel was not in the territories at all, and still there was a lot of terror against the citizens of Israel. Then the past, between 1993 and 2000, there was a peace process, and in the midst of the peace process in 1996, there were many suicide bombers who came to Israel, exploded themselves in the heart of Jerusalem. We were then at the peak of the peace process.

Two weeks ago on March 14th, when General Zinni arrived in the area, Israel decided to restrain and to make everything possible for him to succeed in his mission, and what happened? We got more terror and more terror and more terror.

So there's nothing - what Israel is doing right now is responding to a huge wave of terror, which is imposed upon us by the Palestinian Authority and this must stop, because if we do not stop, there will be a problem for both of us to implement the Tenet and Mitchell agreements, and at the end of the day, this is what we want to do.

But right now, our goal is to eliminate terror, to dismantle the terrorist organizations, and to out root terror from this area.

BROWN: Sir, it was reported this weekend that one of the reasons the ceasefire talks broke down is that the Israeli government, or rather the Palestinian side, wanted to link a ceasefire with renewed political talks, to start the political side of the talks again, and that the Israeli side simply wanted the ceasefire and would leave the political arguments for another time. First of all, is that true? And second of all, if it is, why?

MEIR: General Zinni came to the area the third time on March 14th, as I just mentioned, and we made everything possible for him to achieve a ceasefire. I would like to tell you that on Tuesday night, just on the eve of our sacred Passover holiday, just before the Passover massacre, we gave General Zinni a positive response to his rigid proposal. He was waiting for the Palestinians to do the same response. And the answer was, of course, the Passover massacre.

As to your question about Israel negotiating for a permanent solution, this can come only after we are going through the first two stages of the Mitchell report. The first stage is to achieve a real and sincere cease-fire. The second stage is, of course, a cooling off period. And then we go to the confidence building measures. And the end of the process will be obviously to start to negotiate the permanent solution.

BROWN: Well, I hope we get there eventually, sir. It's good to talk to you again. Thank you for your time, Gideon Meir in Jerusalem.

This evening when NEWSNIGHT continues on a Monday, more on the tactics of suicide bombings. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, it is true, as Gideon Meir said a moment ago, that suicide bombings as such are not new in the Middle East. They've gone on for a long time. But what is new is the intensity of them, the number of them, six in the last six days, and the number of people who are being killed.

And so, it seemed to us a good time to look at what the strategy, if that's the right word for it, is designed to accomplish. Earlier, we spoke with Retired Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Peters about the strategy of suicide as we are seeing it today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Let's begin with this. There's been terror in the Middle East for 50 years. What is it about this wave of terror, these suicide bombings that seemingly, perhaps you'll disagree, but seemingly make it effective?

RALPH PETERS, LT. COL., RETIRED, AUTHOR: Well, it's effective to a degree because the United States, and even more so the Europeans have allowed it to become so by breaking Israel back. What's really different is of course is the scale, the intensity.

This is clearly a planned campaign. And I personally believe that Yasser Arafat has known all along. But it's been unique in the ability of middle age and older Palestinian terrorists to identify, seduce, train and then send these young people out on these suicide missions.

And they've done a remarkably good job of identifying disturbed young Palestinians, who can be nudged into the suicide bombings. And there seems to be an almost endless supply. Of course, no out cry about that. But I think when you look at the way they're cynically using Palestinian youth in the name of idealism, talking about martyrdom, how glorious it is to be a martyr.

BROWN: Yes.

PETERS: Well, if it's glorious to be a martyr. Why aren't the middle age leaders martyring themselves?

BROWN: Colonel, let me bring back the question for a second though. Because, arguably how they get people to do this is one thing. Why does it seem to be more effective? What is it about this kind of campaign that make it more effective than anything else they have seemingly done for 50 years?

PETERS: Well, one, of course is the relentless nature of it. It just doesn't stop. Our history of terrorism in the Middle East was a big event or a few events and then a lull. And this is day after day, sometimes more than one a day. And so the orchestrated nature of the campaign makes it different.

BROWN: A couple more things on this. First of all, this -- it's an intriguing idea you brought up, that ultimately this will backfire. How so will it backfire?

PETERS: Well, in the same sense that September 11 did. On September 11, had the terrorists only hit the Pentagon, not the World Trade Center towers, much of the world would have laughed and even some of the allies would have snickered.

But these kind of terrorists always over reach. And I think the intensity and the graphic images we are seeing of more and more dead Israeli men, women and children, clearly not security forces, not legitimate targets has finally turned the United States. I mean it's been curious because the Bush administration, although I believe it's prosecuted the war against terrorism very well, has had a blind spot when it comes to the arab states for a number of reasons.

But clearly, if you watch President Bush and his body language and listen to what he's really slaying when he slips the leash from his handlers, he's personally is disturbed by what's happening.

So I think that the Palestinians have gone too far with this campaign of terror. And it will backfire. The United States is the decisive factor, external to the area, not the Europeans. And the timing is bad for the Palestinians after September 11.

BROWN: All right. Let's go back to the whole, the weapon here. One more question about the weapon. And then I want to talk about how you stop it.

Are we seeing in a sense a new kind of warfare, that not just the Israelis need to be concerned about, but that Americans need to be concerned about, French need to be concerned about, Brits need to be concerned about because it could be used against anyone?

PETERS: Well, certainly, we all need to be concerned about it. And if the message we send is that suicide bombing gets you somewhere, then indeed terrorists around the world will learn that lesson and will use terrorist suicide bombers elsewhere. And we'll all pay.

But I think in the greater sense of is this new? No, it's not. It's probably about as old as mankind and cynical. This use of the young to die for the old...

BROWN: Yes.

PETERS: And you've seen it in West Africa with Charles Taylor'a small boys unit. This use of child warriors and young warriors, of disturbed people, of those who are brainwashed en masse, it is sad to say it's not new. It's not an aberration. It just happens to be new in this particular context.

BROWN: Half a minute. Probably not quite enough time here. How do you stop this? Is it stoppable?

PETERS: Well, you can never stop terrorism entirely. You can reduce it. You stop it by taking a hard line. Not against the bombers themselves, but against the masterminds, the leaders of terrorism who exploit these young people. And you've got to go after the leaders and the infrastructure. And I think that's what the Israelis are trying to do.

BROWN: It looks like it. Colonel, thanks for your time. It's good to talk to you again.

PETERS: My pleasure.

BROWN: Thank you, sir. (END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Peters, we talked to him late this afternoon.

Up next on NEWSNIGHT, the so-called American Taliban back in court. His lawyers on the offensive. How they fared, when NEWSNIGHT continues on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Still no answer to the question where is bin Laden, but it does look like the United States has captured someone close to him. U.S. officials now confirm that one man captured in raids last week in Pakistan admits that he is Abu Zubaydah.

Zubaydah's considered the operations chief of al Qaeda, number three on the list of most wanted terrorists by the U.S. government. Some say he knows more about the bin Laden operation than bin Laden himself.

He is 30-years old, the Palestinian in charge of recruiting. And more importantly, he is thought to have been planning more terrorist attacks. As one terrorism expert put it today, he is the biggest fish we have caught.

Lawyers for the so-called American Taliban, John Walker Lindh, back in court today trying without a whole lot of success to learn more details about the government's case against their client and again charging that Mr. Lindh was tortured after his capture, and that the U.S. government is covering it up.

Again, here's CNN'S Kelly Arena.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLY ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Defense attorneys for John Walker Lindh say the U.S. government has destroyed evidence that would show their client was tortured, including videotapes and pictures. But at least one government picture of Walker Lindh just filed in court papers shows him naked, blindfolded and strapped to a stretcher.

In a motion filed with the U.S. District court, the defense team asked for an order requiring the preservation of all evidence. Walker Lindh's lawyers also argued for more access to information and witnesses, an effort that met with mixed results. The judge ruled many of the defense requests for information were too broad. He ruled to preserve the anonymity of a confidential government source and denied a defense request for access to e-mails exchanged by justice officials.

KENDALL COFFEY, FMR. U.S. ATTY.: There are obviously very serious concerns about national security. And I think the government is within its rights to say that it is not going to hand over classified information, that it's not going to hand over the identity of some of the informants without a compelling showing of need.

ARENA: But the judge did tell the prosecution to ask military officials, al Qaeda detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba and others whether they would be willing to sit for interviews by defense lawyers.

DICK SAUBER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think there's an extra reason why the defense should at least be allowed some latitude to see what happened to him, who dealt with him, the conditions.

ARENA: Perhaps more than his rulings today, one comment in particular gave an insight into the judge's thinking. When denying the defense request for the names of victims Walker Lindh allegedly was targeting, the judge, his voice raised, shot back. "Do you think Mohammed Atta knew the names of the people in the World Trade Center? Do you think any terrorist cares who they kill?"

Walker Lindh quietly watched the proceedings. A bit heavier and his hair a bit longer.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(on camera): Walker Lindh occasionally conferred with his lawyers during that hearing. The 21-year-old former Californian faces life in prison if convicted -- Aaron.

BROWN: Kelly, thank you. Kelly Arena in Washington for us tonight. Thank you.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, in the word of one activist, the ocean is sick. Mystery of black water in Florida when NEWSNIGHT continues on a Monday.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: It's April 1st. And some may have expected the program, given the kind of program it often is, to do one of those foolish April Fools things. We're not doing that. Not now any way.

Anyway, when you start seeing headlines like this it's hard to resist checking it out yourself. Baffling black blob floating near Florida. We'll try and fill you in on the headline. It's a blob of water so big, so black in the Gulf of Mexico that you can easily spot it on satellite. Sort of environmental who done it that has fishermen and scientists asking where have all the fish gone?

The person to talk about this is Jean Michel Cousteau. And he'll join us in a moment. First some background from Mark Potter in the Florida Keys.

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MARK POTTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The first alert something may be wrong in the Gulf of Mexico came from commercial fishermen.

TIM DANIELS, FISHERMAN: We don't see the fish here now even.

POTTER: Tim Daniels has fished near Florida all his life. And in late January flew his plane to try to spot kingfish schools. Instead, he found that hundreds of miles of Gulf Coast water had turned black and all the fish were gone.

DANIELS: I flew for two or three hours looking at black water. All our traditional fishing grounds was black water. I don't know what it is, but black water's took us over out there and there's not a fish anywhere.

POTTER: Satellite images confirmed what Daniels had seen. The dark water first appeared offshore late last year. And by February, had blossomed into an area bigger than Lake Okachobee, as it drifted southward along the west Florida coast. Fishermen returning with their catches said the water looked like sewage.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The only term they could use, and two men in one day said the ocean is sick. The ocean's sick.

POTTER: Scientists from around the state then began their investigation, testing the water, trying to determine the cause and the impact.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's go ahead and hit that one next. And then we'll go off into that other water.

POTTER: Near Key West, the dark water can still be seen, although now it is greenish brown, not black. Based on preliminary data, scientists suspect it is an algae bloom, a natural and common event, although this one is much bigger than any other in the last 100 years.

ERICH MUELLER, MOTE MARINE LABORATORY: What triggered it is a complex series of events. Water temperature, nutrient availability, light availability. And that's what we really don't understand much about it.

JOHN HUNT, FLORIDA MARINE RESEARCH INSTITUTE: This is truly a detective story. I mean, we have had events occur. We're trying to collect information that we can collect today and project back into the past to see what has caused this event.

POTTER: Scientists say although the algae may chase fish away, it doesn't kill them and doesn't appear dangerous to humans.

BRIAN KELLER, FLORIDA KEYS NATL. MARINE SANCTUARY: In some ways a little bit like a hurricane that it's a large national event that we watch, we monitor, we try to understand, we try to learn from but we can't prevent.

POTTER: But the size and duration of the bloom have led some to question whether freshwater run off, fertilizers and other pollution may be contributing to the explosion of algae.

(on camera): As there is still uncertainty about the exact cause of this event, there is also disagreement over the effects.

(voice-over): Fishermen and environmentists fear this is a major wake up call and have reported die offs of sponges and other sea bottom life in areas touched by the dark water bloom. Scientists say there is no reason for panic, but will continue their testing. And warn that because of the complexities involved, they may never fully solve the mystery of black water.

Mark Potter, CNN in the Florida Keys.

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BROWN: Well as Mark said, it may never be solved, but we can try at least. We're joined tonight by Jean Michel Cousteau. He's in Santa Barbara. He's an environmentist.

And it's nice to see you, sir. Welcome. I hope this doesn't.

JEAN-MICHEL COUSTEAU, SON OF JACQUES COUSTEAU: Thank you.

BROWN: I hope this doesn't sound like absolutely crazy question, but is it possible that this is in fact some sort of healthy, national cleansing that nature is going through here?

COUSTEAU: Well, I don't think we can answer that question in good sense. A lot more research needs to be done. It is a perfect example of the fact that we don't know anything about the ocean. And we need to support those scientists who are trying to find out what's happening.

One thing is certain is that it hasn't been observed in such a large amount, all 700 square mile, which really is very unusual and could very well be caused by man's activities. I think the signal that is provided there is the fact that one, we don't know what's going on in the ocean. Two, we're still using the ocean as a garbage can or universal sewer, where we dump everything into it. Three, it may very well be linked to very large phenomenon, such as global warming.

We know that when you create a film or a screen if you like, the energy from the sunlight that normally penetrates and goes and reach certain plants, which are feeding the coral reefs, cannot take place any more. And the coral reefs may very well bleach again or die, like we've seen happening in the Florida Keys in the last few years. And it is a real issue.

BROWN: Why would we only see it in, granted a large area, but one isolated area. If it were global warming, why might we not see it also in the waters off Australia or any number of other places?

COUSTEAU: Well first of all, we may not have the same amount of record. I'm amazed that just because the news is very loaded with events, which are perhaps even more important than what's happening in Florida, we only really seriously talking about it now when we know it has been around for several months now.

BROWN: Yes.

COUSTEAU: And thanks to the space program, we can correlate the observation from the space program with institutions and the Florida Keys, National Marine Sanctuary, which is really very concerned about what's happening there.

But we have no proof of the origin of it. It is an algae. It's not, it's a major bloom. It doesn't appear to be dangerous to marine life and to humans. But the fact that the fish have left is really telling us that something is wrong. And I think the coral reefs of the Florida Keys are like the canaries in a mine. It's telling us something is happening, something very serious. And we need to pay attention and support those who are doing legitimate research.

BROWN: Yes, I think that's a great analogy. I mean, clearly the ocean is telling us something. And we're not able to figure out, for whatever reasons, we're not able to figure out what it is that we're being told. Does the fact -- well, are you skeptical of these reports that sponges are dying? And the significance of that is what?

COUSTEAU: The preliminary observations, which I collected today, makes me believe that it's not a real issue. And I don't think we need to panic or be alarmed to the point of being concerned. We need to look into it, but I don't think what has been observed is of great concern at the moment. Sponges for other marine life and fish.

BROWN: So it's more a warning than anything else?

COUSTEAU: I think it's a major warning. And I think we need to support the research that needs to be done, so at least we'll know what it's coming from, and if we need to worry further and look at, you know, the satellite images reporting what's happening around the earth. And we are all connected to it now. And if it happens somewhere else, we'll know.

BROWN: Is it anything like the red tide issues that kill off shellfish? I used to see them in the Pacific Northwest. I assume they occur other places?

COUSTEAU: No. It doesn't appear to have anything to do with red tide. Red tide has toxins, which can kill. And we've had, we've seen major fish killed. What you have here is a dye term, which is part of the plankton family. and it's an overpopulation if you like. What has created that over population is really what we need to find out.

BROWN: Mr. Cousteau, thanks for your time today. This is a fascinating natural mystery to try and figure out. Thank you for helping us. Jean-Michel.

COUSTEAU: Well, it tells us we need to know and learn more about the ocean than we have so far.

BROWN: That's pretty clear. Thank you, sir. Jean-Michel Cousteau with us tongith from Santa Barbara. Up next, Segment -- they change the name to segment while I was gone. Segment 7 and history unframed. I'll remember this part. This is NEWSNIGHT.

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BROWN: Finally from us tonight, history unframed. A very fitting name, we think, for a collection of photos that remember the history of September 11. These are photos that were taken in haste on that morning, perhaps with more care on some of the early days after, taken by famous people and by everyday New Yorkers alike.

And tonight, the city got to see some of them projected on a screen that is fair to say is a bit bigger than the one you're watching the program on now, 700 square feet.

From Times Square tonight, CNN's Beth Nissen.

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BETH NISSEN, CNN CORREPSONDENT (voice-over): It opened a few weeks after September 11 in a small vacant store in New York City's Soho district, an exhibit of pictures related to 9/11, contributed by both professional and amateur photographers.

Over the last six months, this democracy of photographs has drawn about 300,000 visitors. The related website gets a million hits a day. Now the exhibit, retitled "History Unframed" has moved to a new more spacious home in midtown Manhattan.

To mark the reopening, selected photos from the exhibit were shown on the giant screen in Times Square. And the nearly 3,000 photographers who contributed some 7,000 photos were invited to a reception at the International Center of Photography. Lilly Hutchett (ph) took this photo last May from the observation deck of the World Trade Center.

LILLY HUTCHETT: Never again, unless you're like hovering in a helicopter or something right at that spot, you will never have this shot again.

NISSEN: Brian Long from San Francisco contributed this image, shot in 1999.

BRIAN LONG: I thought it should be in the show to remind people of how beautiful, you know, New York was, that sky line.

NISSEN: Fred Martin's photo was taken the day after September 11.

FRED MARTIN: And this is one of the steelworkers who was taking a break late in the afternoon. And he was pretty upset.

NISSEN: Exhibit organizers are just starting to collect videotaped accounts from photographers about how and where their photos were made.

MARTIN: I think it might be carthartic, sort of you know, to talk about it. And it's definitely been a difficult thing for all of us. And I feel that it might help me, sort of, you know, get past this, too.

NISSEN: Organizers have also made a record of another kind, and turned a camera on the contributing photographers. Some 500 of them posed for a group portrait, a brilliant portrait of those who captured a flash of history.

Beth Nissen, CNN, New York.

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BROWN: That's her report for tonight. My thanks to Connie Chung for sitting in last week. Nice to see you all again. We'll see you tomorrow. Goodnight.

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