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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Israeli Offensive Widens; Bush Describes a Future Palestine Living Next to Israel
Aired April 02, 2002 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone.
The thing about covering the Middle East -- and we'll spend a lot of time on it again tonight -- is no matter what we do, it seems we make no one happy. I suspect my mom will call to complain sometime soon, and she's generally pretty good about cutting me some slack.
Last night there was lots of unhappiness. It seemed equally split, but lots of it. So a few words on the decision to put a spokesman from Hamas on the program, a decision that created a fair amount of fuss.
Here's how we see these things. Our job is to give you a view of all the relevant players in every story. That doesn't mean we have to like them or like what they say. We never even think about that in the decision making. We trust that if you hear for the players, and if the questions are reasonable, you're perfectly able to judge the merits of their arguments for yourself.
It is not our place and shouldn't be our place to make that decision for you.
Now, that's not to say we don't make editorial decisions all the time. We make judgments about who the players are and who they are not.
But it's a tough argument to make tonight, that given the state of things, that Hamas is not a player in the Middle East. So in that regard, the decision was a no-brainer.
Now, was it a comfortable interview? No. But was it the right decision? Well, after reading a lot of notes after the last 24 hours, we still think so, and we also know that many of you, no matter what, will continue to believe we were wrong.
On that note, we go to the whip, which begins with Christiane Amanpour in Jerusalem. Christiane, a headline from you, please.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the Israeli military offensive is widening as we speak. Tonight tanks have rolled into Jenin, one place where Israel believes there are many suicide bombers, and also another suicide bombing attack was narrowly thwarted this evening. That's the latest from here.
BROWN: Christiane, back to you quite quickly.
To Ramallah now. Another day of violence there, and another busy day for CNN's Michael Holmes. Michael, the headline from you.
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, yes, a security facility, a very significant target, was all but destroyed. A mass grave was dug because the morgue is full. The window behind us is closed because the shooting tonight is too close.
Back to you.
BROWN: Michael, back to you too in a few moments.
And one question on the table tonight, is the White House doing enough to stop the bloodshed, to find a peaceful solution? The criticism grows louder from left and right.
Kelly Wallace was traveling with the president today just outside of Philadelphia, in Media, Pennsylvania. Kelly, the headline from you.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, President Bush did not address that criticism, ignoring reporters' questions earlier. Instead, his secretary of state fanned out on the morning interview programs to say the administration is deeply engaged, but the president's critics are not satisfied, saying the time has come for a new White House game plan -- Aaron.
BROWN: Kelly, thank you. We'll hear from some of those critics tonight, both left and right.
Also on NEWSNIGHT, a few stories that have nothing to do with the Middle East. In fact, they barely register on the big, important news meter that we keep in the office. They're just fascinating, kind of true-crime stories you couldn't make up if you tried.
Jury selection under way now in the Michael Skakel case. Case involves a Kennedy cousin and a murder a quarter-century ago in one of America's wealthiest towns. The accused was a teenager then, so was the victim.
And Deborah Feyerick tonight brings us a murder case from another place known for its privilege and wealth, not its crime. It is a Hamptons murder mystery on the program as well.
All of that to come in the hour ahead.
We begin, as you figured out by now, in the Middle East. The State Department said today Americans thinking of going to the Middle East ought to think again, and stay home. For Americans already in Jerusalem, the message was just as plain, get out. It is not safe.
From the Israeli prime minister, Sharon, an equally blunt message to Yasser Arafat today. If you'd like to leave, we'll gladly help you, just don't bother coming back.
All of this comes with Israeli troops occupying key Palestinian cities with armed Palestinians barricaded inside one of Christianity's holiest places, and everywhere on both sides people still burying their dead. Perhaps the best we can say, no successful suicide bombings today, at least not yet.
On that dubious note, back to CNN's Christiane Amanpour in Jerusalem. Christiane, good evening.
AMANPOUR: Good evening, Aaron.
Well, that suicide -- attempted suicide bombing was thwarted. It was, according to Israeli soldiers, a man coming to a checkpoint in a town on the Israeli West Bank border. As he was being checked, he detonated explosives, according to the Israelis, and only he was killed.
This at a time when Israel's military operation in the West Bank expands. There are now about nine cities on the -- under Israeli control, the latest in the northern West Bank, Jenin. Again, tanks poised outside a refugee camp there, the site of what Israelis believe to be the hotbed of suicide bombers.
In Bethlehem, not far from where we are now, there's been an all- day pitched battle in that city there and around the Church of the Nativity and, in fact, inside the Church of the Nativity, a holy Christian site where people believe, Christians believe Jesus was born.
It is now a sanctuary for Palestinians who have rushed in there during the day. Israeli defense spokesmen won't tell us what exactly is going on and how they're going to resolve it, but we understand that there are a number of armed people in there.
There were also pitched battles in Bethlehem earlier today. At one point tanks were trying to get into various small streets in the old town, but because of the narrowness of those streets, they were having some difficulty. But now Israelis in full control of that town.
Ariel Sharon, when he went to visit the army base at the West Bank, said that in response to questions about whether he would allow international mediators to go and see Yasser Arafat, he said that he would, but only on condition that they take him out and they don't bring him back again.
But later, just shortly after that conversation, in off- camera -- he thought what were off-camera remarks in Hebrew to his chief of staff, Shol (ph) Mofaz, they had an exchange which indicated that certainly they were quite eager to see Yasser Arafat exiled.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN ON SCREEN)
"We have to take advantage of this opportunity now," says the general. "There won't be another one like it."
"You have to be very careful," says Sharon.
(END ON SCREEN)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Well, American officials, European officials, and certainly Palestinian officials are definitely dismissing that notion by Ariel Sharon, and Palestinians are saying there is no way that Yasser Arafat would ever leave, would ever leave here voluntarily.
At the same time, the chief Palestinian negotiator telling us in an interview today that what was really needed now, he made an impassioned plea for U.S. intervention.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAEB EREKAT, CHIEF PALESTINIAN NEGOTIATOR: Christiane, I'm a father of four, four children, and it aches my heart to see Israeli children killed, to see Palestinian children killed. Nothing justifies what goes on out there in terms of suicide bombings or in terms of Israeli killing Palestinians.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Well, that was a piece of our conversation with Saeb Erekat, who was condemning as unjustified suicide bombings, something the Palestinians and other Arab leaders have been quite reluctant to do, although they do condemn the deaths of civilians.
Now, on the other matter, certainly Saeb Erekat making an impassioned plea for U.S. intervention, saying it's time now, both Israelis and Palestinians need help, they can't do it on their own, and they need a sense of direction, he said, from President Bush.
There are no negotiations going on right now, even though Anthony Zinni, the chief mediator, is here. There are no talks between the two sides.
And some insiders are beginning to think that perhaps the only way out of this mess, if there is a way out, is to try to implement the latest U.N. resolution that was passed with U.S. approval, calling for a cease-fire and a withdrawal of the Israeli army and troops from those West Bank areas -- Aaron.
BROWN: Christiane, help us understand something. The Palestinians are calling for American involvement. Zinni is in the region. What is it they're not getting from the American side now that they want?
AMANPOUR: Well, they believe that the Americans have, in terms of the Bush administration, until this latest Zinni mission, have been sitting on the sidelines, and that's not just a Palestinian belief. You've heard from not only the Arab countries but also from Europe. You've heard the crescendo of criticism rising in the U.S. press as well.
They believe that neglecting and just -- and electing to stay on the sidelines, this administration over the past year, since it came into office, more than a year now, has essentially allowed this situation to descend into the almost point of no return that we're in right now.
And they believe that even though previous U.S. administrations were unable to force peace on the two sides, at least the notion of a process, a peace process, always kept the violence to much more manageable levels.
It's pretty much that, what they're saying.
BROWN: Christiane, thanks. Christiane Amanpour in Jerusalem.
We go next to Ramallah, the siege there as seen from the street, not an easy story to report. Israeli authorities expelled the CBS News crew yesterday, a crew from Abu Dhabi today, and threatened legal action against NBC News and CNN for their coverage of the ongoing battles in Ramallah, coverage led on our side by CNN's Michael Holmes.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HOLMES (voice-over): Sounds of gunfire and tank shells coming from the direction of the Palestinian Preventive Security headquarters in Ramallah. At dawn, helicopters fire at the compound. Israel says there was return fire from inside.
We drove to the headquarters through mist and rain. At one point, an Israeli soldier stopping our journey.
(on camera): ... we want to film that.
UNIDENTIFIED ISRAELI SOLDIER: You can't go (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
HOLMES (voice-over): Another route, and we found ourselves at the compound.
(on camera): But sounds of battle last night told us that this was a ferocious assault. Daylight proved that correct.
(voice-over): Inside here the previous night, perhaps 300 people, Palestinian prisoners, security forces, also civilian workers and plain Palestinian officials, some children of those workers in a day care center.
Sources tell us a deal brokered by the CIA saw the firing stop, and those inside allowed to leave, taken to an Israeli military facility in the West Bank for processing and questioning.
What was a significant Palestinian facility rendered all but useless, and it was empty. Israel says those not on their wanted list will be released, including Palestinian security officers. Israel also says perhaps dozens of wanted terrorists were inside this place. Palestinian officials say there were prisoners here, but the compound, after all, includes a prison.
Those officials said many of the prisoners who were here were arrested at the request of Israeli and American security officials. But one senior Palestinian source we spoke with acknowledged there were prisoners on Israel's wanted list inside the compound, prisoners who hadn't been handed over.
In any event, after those here, including casualties, had left with Israeli troops, what was left behind was the smoldering office of the Preventive Security chief Jabril Rajoub, administrative offices bearing the scars of tank shells and rockets.
This building housed the prison and a hospital.
At the Ramallah hospital a mile away, a welcome sight, a United Nations humanitarian convoy. The U.N. negotiating with Israel to travel here from Jerusalem with badly needed blood and medical supplies.
Across the road in a car park, a makeshift grave is dug. The reason is simple, the morgue is full. Two bodies on trays built for one, perhaps 27 people here, some on the floor. There was simply no more room.
For tens of thousands of Palestinians cooped up in their homes for nearly five days, some relief, an announcement that the curfew had been lifted for two and a half hours, what Israel called a humanitarian gesture, to allow people to get food, water, milk. Those we spoke with said they needed it.
UNIDENTIFIED PALESTINIAN MAN: No milk, no bread. This is the most important thing for us, is because we have kids in the houses. No milk, no bread, no eggs, no -- nothing to eat, nothing to eat.
UNIDENTIFIED PALESTINIAN WOMAN: Milk...
HOLMES (on camera): Milk.
UNIDENTIFIED PALESTINIAN WOMAN: ... for four children.
HOLMES: Before dusk, the curfew reimposed, warning shots from armored vehicles sending people back to their homes for another night behind closed doors.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
And Aaron, there they remain, as dawn is about to break here, as I explained at the beginning of the program, we normally are standing in front of an open window. There are actions going on behind us, closer than normal, closer than we would like, and so the window is closed.
From the hospital, Aaron, a story tonight too. A woman went in there yesterday to have a cast removed from her arm. She's 56 years old. As she crossed the road to her home, quite literally across the road, she was shot dead -- Aaron. BROWN: Wow. Goodness. I don't -- at the risk of making us the story here, which I'm not very comfortable doing, let's just take a brief moment and talk about the situation that reporters and that you specifically are finding yourself in relative to the Israeli government. They're obviously not happy you're there. They haven't thrown you out. What's the deal?
HOLMES: It's true, Aaron, I mean, where we are literally on the ground, I've heard very little about Israeli reaction to our reporting. What we do day to day is try to report what we see here, what we hear here, and what we're told here. And we try to do it in the most balanced way possible.
As far as covering the story goes, most of the media have traveled here. We had a tire shot out on our vehicle a couple of days ago. NBC had their vehicle disabled by gunfire. And their reporter told me that they have a bullet lodged in the windshield of this armored vehicle.
It is difficult to report, but it's not -- it's certainly dangerous to report, it's not impossible. We've had very little direct problems reporting the story from the Israeli army itself. They will stop us going to certain places, and that is their prerogative, if they feel that it's not right for us to go down a certain way. We'll then generally try another way. And if we're not stopped, we'll report it from that direction. That's how we got to the Preventive Security headquarters yesterday.
It's certainly a risky place to be for anyone on the streets, just simply because of the level of fire at times -- Aaron.
BROWN: Michael, thank you. Be safe out there. We appreciate your work again tonight. Thank you.
And as Michael indicated, there has been some CIA involvement now in trying to negotiate or in successfully negotiating the surrender of the security compound, which leads to the question, why? But that's not the only question involved here, because one of the realities of the Israeli siege in the West Bank is that it is creating a broader crisis for the American intelligence community and the United States' ability to fight its own war on terrorism.
That's not the Israeli goal, of course, they're not trying to create problems for the United States government. But it is another example of the law of unintended consequences.
Here's CNN national security correspondent David Ensor.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Central Intelligence director George Tenet spent much of the last two days at the White House and canceled a speech scheduled for Wednesday as the CIA grapples not only with the war on terrorism but with a fast-moving crisis for U.S. Intelligence. (voice-over): The crisis has been created by the Israeli siege, and now destruction, of the Palestinian Preventative Security offices in the West Bank. George Tenet has often arranged for Palestinian security chief Jabril Rajoub, seen as a pragmatic moderate, to cooperate with Israeli security officials.
Last year, the Israelis targeted artillery near his house. Now they have destroyed his organization's infrastructure, a step some fear could make a cease-fire or peace even less likely.
WHITLEY BRUNER, FORMER CIA OFFICER: This is really gone counter to the whole argument that Arafat should be doing more against terrorism, because it's really taking away one of his major weapons against the terrorists.
ENSOR: Whitley Bruner, a former CIA officer on the West Bank, says by going after Rajoub's security organization and others like it, the Israelis are also hurting an important source of intelligence for Washington's wider war on terrorism.
BRUNER: I think Tenet has lost a major ally, or is on the verge of losing a major ally. If these organizations are broken up, it's going to be much harder for the CIA to be able to obtain information concerning the radicals and their activities, both inside the Palestinian territories and outside.
ENSOR: So U.S. intelligence officials have been engaged in full- time collateral damage control, as the situation on the West Bank goes from bad to worse.
David Ensor, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: After a break, we'll take a look at how the administration is attempting to deal with the situation in the Middle East. Later, we'll deal with the Michael Skakel case in Connecticut.
As we go to break, we want to replay this off-mike exchange between Ariel Sharon and his chief of staff, because when we played it the first time, we inadvertently covered up some of the graphics that would have made it make sense. So we'll do that as we go to break.
NEWSNIGHT continues in a moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN ON SCREEN)
"Kick him out," said Mofaz.
"Yes, I know," Sharon says.
"We have to take advantage of this opportunity now," says the general. "There won't be another one like it.
"You have to be very careful," says Sharon.
(END ON SCREEN)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: President Bush spoke out on the Middle East tonight, but nothing he said sheds much light on what the administration's policy is, or whether the administration feels it has to engage more, take more risks in an effort to find a solution in the Middle East. This is clearly become a foreign policy test for the administration, and critics both left and right are not giving the president and his team very high marks right now.
We'll talk with a couple of those critics in a moment, but first, CNN's Kelly Wallace on the president and an administration on the defensive.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALLACE (voice-over): During a fund raiser in Philadelphia, President Bush touts his vision for the Middle East, Israel and a Palestinian state living side by side.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So that Israeli boys and girls can grow up in a peaceful society. I feel the same thing about the Palestinians. I, I, I hope that they can have their own peaceful state, at peace with their neighbor, Israel.
WALLACE: Mr. Bush does not address his critics, leaving that to his secretary of state.
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: I can assure you that I am deeply engaged every day for hours of the day, as are my colleagues in the Bush administration, to include the president.
WALLACE: Yet there is growing criticism that the president himself has not done enough, including not speaking directly with the Israeli and Palestinian leaders since Israeli tanks stormed into Palestinian areas.
The Bush administration has made no secret it believes that President Clinton pushed too hard during the Camp David talks, but some Mideast observers believe Mr. Bush has been too hands-off.
LEE HAMILTON, WOODROW WILSON CENTER: Certainly the impression throughout the Middle East, and I think throughout the world, and now throughout this country, is that the president really has not made a high priority of the Middle East conflict.
WALLACE: Even members of the president's own party believe Mr. Bush could do more, including dispatching Powell to the region to negotiate a cease-fire linked to discussions of political issues.
SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R), PENNSYLVANIA: And we need to elevate it to the level of secretary of state and to have it broader on an overall settlement as well as on security.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WALLACE: For now, U.S. officials don't seem inclined to send Powell to the region and are not pushing any new major initiative. Instead, the administration's focus continues to be on Middle East envoy Anthony Zinni's cease-fire negotiations.
U.S. officials, though, are certainly concerned about the situation getting worse, but are also worried that any more involvement brings with it an added degree of risk.
Aaron, back to you.
BROWN: Kelly, thank you. Kelly Wallace in Media, Pennsylvania, outside Philadelphia tonight. Thank you.
So we'll talk about this, what the president is doing, what he ought to be doing.
Elaine Kamarck used to work with the Clinton White House, currently lectures at Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government. That's honest work.
Also with us tonight, and who also does honest work, Rich Lowry, the editor of the "National Review."
It's nice to see both of you.
Elaine, start with you. Take 20 seconds and tell me what the president's doing wrong in the Middle East.
ELAINE KAMARCK, KENNEDY SCHOOL OF GOVERNMENT, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Well, what he's doing wrong began actually way -- long before September 11. He made a conscious decision not to engage in the Middle East, and I think we're now seeing the results of that conscious decision.
I think what we're also seeing is a kind of view of the pre- September 11 George Bush. This was a president who was noted for his detachment. And with the Middle East, president after president has discovered you can't be detached. The president of the United States has to be intimately involved in this problem.
BROWN: OK, you've laid out your side. Your -- Rich, your argument is somewhat different. It's not that he's not done -- not doing enough, it's that he's not doing the right thing (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?
RICH LOWRY, EDITOR, "NATIONAL REVIEW": That's right. Well, the administration obviously is flailing around. They're setting some sort of land speed record for self-contradiction. You know, at times it's seemed as though the president is at odds with U.S. policy. I don't even know whether that's technically possible. So that they haven't covered themselves in glory. But the root of the problem, Aaron, is two or three weeks ago, they blinked in the face of Arab pressure. And they have lost a lot of their moral clarity. They've lost the clarity of the Bush doctrine, which is that you -- if you harbor and encourage terrorism, you're a terrorist. And it's extremely uncomfortable for Bush to get up there and say that Arafat is not a terrorist, because all of his reason and logic and his gut says that he is.
And that's why I think he's looking so awkward and uncomfortable.
BROWN: And you did yours in 20 seconds, (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
LOWRY: Nineteen, by my count.
BROWN: So let me pick up on one thing which I -- I don't want to sit here and make points for either of you. But there was -- I think it was Saturday, the president says, essentially justifies the Israeli march into Ramallah and into the West Bank, while at the same time the United States at the United Nations votes for a withdrawal.
KAMARCK: Withdrawal.
BROWN: There is a -- that's confusing, no matter how you slice it and dice it.
KAMARCK: And this is continued. Yesterday we had a foreign policy statement from the Defense Department. We had a foreign policy statement from the State Department. And we had a statement from the White House.
Now, that's an indication -- I mean, if you've been in the White House, you know that that's not supposed to happen. You're supposed to speak with one voice, and it's supposed to be the president's voice.
BROWN: I want to go back to something Rich said in a minute, but you said something earlier that I need to ask you about. You said what we're seeing now, talking about the president's inaction, as you characterized it, the results of that decision. You're not suggesting, I assume, that this violence that is going on is the result of the administration's inaction in the Middle East. Are you?
KAMARCK: Well, I think that what you can say is that what previous American presidents have done is, they've had a -- they spent a lot of time to keep them talking, to keep both sides talking, keep both sides at the table, even though they know how hard it is, and they know that final solutions have been very, very difficult.
I think by totally withdrawing from the Middle East, as this administration has done, they really have nothing now to offer. They are without ideas. And I think that's clear in the way you see them flailing around in the last couple days.
BROWN: OK. Rich, you look to me like you were dying to say something, so go ahead, and then I'll throw one your way. LOWRY: Well, this is a very attractive idea in contemporary American discourse, going back to the Enlightenment, and it's the idea that every problem has a solution, that there isn't evil in the world, there are not implacable demands, there's not irrationality. And gee whiz, if we all just sit down and talk, it can be worked out.
And that is not always the case, and it is not the case here. And this is the root of the problem. It's not that Bush hasn't sent the right guy there to the Middle East, or that he isn't having enough press conferences about this, or isn't calling Yasser Arafat on the phone.
This goes back to May 2000, when Israel withdrew from southern Lebanon in a hasty fashion that looked like a retreat, that looked like a surrender. That's certainly the way Hezbollah thought of it. They thought they'd made Israel bleed and hurt enough to make them run.
And the Palestinians looked at that, drew the lesson from it, and said, We are going to do exactly the same thing.
That's why for 18 months, Arafat has chosen violence and war, because he thinks it's going to work, because he thinks he's -- can make the Israelis run. And he's not going to change his mind until the Israelis convince him otherwise, and that's exactly what they're trying to do right now.
BROWN: All right, let me, as your humble moderator here, suggest, simply suggest that one of the things the administration is learning is that it is not, it is not a situation without nuance. You have laid out just now this very black-and-white view of what -- forgive me for this, Rich -- is a very complicated set of issues and grievances.
And I'm not sure that your argument holds or allows for much nuance.
LOWRY: Well, look, it is complicated. Palestinians have been dealt a terrible hand by history. Conditions in the refugee camps are appalling. But the fact is that Arafat has chosen terror. And yes, that's a simple sentence, you can say it five or seven words, but that doesn't mean it's less true.
BROWN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
LOWRY: And it's also a fallacy to think that things are needlessly complicated. And one of the great advantages of George Bush post-September 11 is that as the moral clarity, the strength of purpose, knowing what his mission is, and he has allowed himself to get off of that because of this thinking, sort of State Department thinking, that, you know, Arafat and Sharon are equally to blame.
That's -- I just don't think that's the case.
BROWN: Well, all right, well, let Elaine go (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
KAMARCK: But, but, but one of the...
BROWN: ... sometimes I want to sit...
KAMARCK: ... one of the things...
BROWN: ... where you guys sit, not where I sit.
KAMARCK: One of the things that happens when a government -- when an administration unilaterally withdrawals from a problem, is not only do they lack nuance, but they lack experience in the problem. They lack a feel for the problem. They lack the ability to make the small interventions along the way that could keep you from getting to the point where you've gotten to now. And I think that that's the price they're paying from trying to pretend they didn't have to be involved with this problem.
BROWN: It is not an unreasonable argument, OK, to say these sides right now really don't want to talk.
KAMARCK: Mm-hmm.
BROWN: They don't -- I mean, that's really what Rich is saying, among other things. They don't want to talk.
KAMARCK: But you know what? Guess what? They haven't wanted to talk for decades. OK? They have -- look, you read about the history of Sharon and Arafat. They have hated each other for a long, long, long time. And who has been the person, who has been the entity in the middle, trying to make this mitigate? It's been the United States? It's been American presidents.
BROWN: 10 seconds, I'm going to get killed.
LOWRY: This is not personal. This is -- the fundamental question in dispute here is whether Israel could exist or not. And it's not just Yasser Arafat. 80, 90 percent of Palestinians support the suicide bombings.
BROWN: Thank you both. Really nice. Nice to see you. It's been a long time.
KAMARCK: Nice to see you.
BROWN: And nice -- it's been a few months. Not quite as long. Thank you.
When we come back, we'll talk with a member of Arafat's inter circle about the situation in the ground. This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We said at the top the program, that given the state of things these days, several of our guests might not be people you'd want to bring home for dinner. Nabil Shaath, we think, is an exception to that. He's been called the West's favorite Palestinian. Before the joining the PLO, he taught finance at the University of Pennsylvania, a founding member of the PLO's delegation to the U.N., and has served on every Palestinian negotiating team since the peace talks in Madrid. And we talked with him earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Let me start with the couple of things you said today, and get some explanation for them. You said maybe it's time for both Egypt and Jordan to cut off ties with the Israelis. What does that get you?
NABIL SHAATH, PLO, MINISTER OF PLANNING & INTL. COOPERATION: There's a question really of messages that need to be said to Israel. This message is you can't get away with the murder in Palestine against Palestinians, and still expect to have everybody maintain relations with you that are not normal.
Normal relations means that relations that can go up and down, reflecting the behavior of the parties. This is what the Israelis are doing today is absolutely atrocious. And the Israelis and the Jordanians must send a message saying that this won't wash. The Arabs are not going to take it lying down. And they protest what Israel's doing to their brothers.
And if that protest means a change in the relation, if it means the downgrade of the relations, let that be part of the message.
BROWN: The Israelis, generally speaking are not -- do not feel they get much support from Europeans. For example, why would a lack of support from either Egypt or Jordan change a single thing that the Israelis are doing on the ground?
SHAATH: Well, I know, you cannot stop guns and summary executions and devastating attacks by change in the diplomatic order of relations. I know that. And I'm a realist. But I'm only saying that these are messages. These are important messages because I know Israel really worked so very hard to maintain good relations with Egypt and Jordan, and to extend those relations to include the whole Arab world.
BROWN: Can you could explain to me why it is Mr. Arafat, that Chairman Arafat, will not say what President Bush has asked him to say now dozens of times, to say it in both English and to say in Arabic to stop the suicide bombings, to stop the attacks on the Israeli side? Why won't he say those words?
SHAATH: If you go back to your archives, and I'm sure Mr. Bush can certainly call on his State Department to bring back the archives. Mr. Arafat must have said that a million times.
Mr. Arafat, over the last few months, have asserted and committed himself to a cease-fire, have went in every way possible to persuade and to discipline, to stop suicide bombings against civilians. But he was not reciprocated by any reduction in the level of siege or occupation or attacks or assassinations the Israelis call extra judicial killings.
And at this time, President Arafat being the hostage devastated all his people, devastated all his police force, destroyed his policemen are taken hostages and prisoners with inscriptions, red inscriptions on their arms and forehead with deportations and summary executions, find it very, difficult to stand up today, to discipline his people in a situation in which he's in.
BROWN: And would you then say, sir, that it is likely to be years before there's anything even approaching a peace process in the Middle East, given the events in the last 18 months?
SHAATH: One should remember, really, what happened in northern Ireland. In northern Ireland, also, many times it looked absolutely impossible. And the bloody confrontation that took place could have really brought nothing but despair to the hearts of everybody.
And that was really then the entry of Mr. Clinton and the American support, real help and support. We -- it is impossible. We are such a weaker party in terms of the relationship of power with Israel. At this time, it seems impossible that the Israelis would want to go back to the peace process without trying to subdue us, as they think they can, which they can't.
There is a road now for the international community, particularly the United States, to come right in place with monitors and peacekeeping troops and real influence in the two parties in order to pave the way again for resumption of the peace process.
BROWN: Well, we thank you for bringing it up. And thank you for your time. It's nice to talk to you today.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And that's our look at the Middle East. Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, two murder cases to report. Two wealthy families, one finally going to trial after more than two decades. Another remains unsolved. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: If "Law And Order" isn't already planning a rip from the headlines episode on this one, they should probably think about it. It involves a murder where murder is virtually unheard of, East Hampton, playground of the rich and famous in Long Island.
The victim, a former Wall Street hot shot in the midst of a messy divorce. And the wife at the time, dating an electrician, who reportedly installed the burglar system at the victim's house. A Hampton's murder mystery tonight from Deborah Feyerick.
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A brutal murder. Ted Ammon, a multimillionaire on both ends of several lawsuits and entangled in a bitter divorce. Found naked, bludgeoned in his bed in the very rich part of East Hampton, a beach getaway for Manhattan's elite.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are no signs of forced entry.
FEYERICK: Police and prosecutors saying very little.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not going to say that there are or not suspects.
FEYERICK: One person who acknowledged its common sense he would be a suspect is Daniel Pelosi. For Pelosi, and electrician now married to Ammon's widow Jenna Rosa, says in written statement to CNN, "I had nothing to do with Ted Ammon's death."
Pelosi's relationship with Jenna Rosa, he had lived in the Hampton's house with her before the murder, just one of the details that has the Hamptons and Manhattan's high society ripe with speculation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Being a tough businessman, you're bound to make some enemies.
FEYERICK: Ammon made his millions in investment banking, as a partner at Kohlberg, Cravis, Roberts, a key player in leveraged buyout of RJR Nabisco.
JURATE KAZICKAS, AMMON FAMILY FRIEND: He was such a charming, funny, warm, outgoing -- just a delightful person, who had done so much in his life.
FEYERICK: And he found love in artist and real estate broker Jenna Rosa Rand.
LENNY GOLAY, AMMON FAMILY FRIEND: She was sparkling. She was bubbly, you know, it's one of those personalities you can't put your finger on it, but you'd just like to be with them, because you know you're going to enjoy yourself.
FEYERICK: Ted and Jenna Rosa tied the knot in 1986. Adopting twins from the Ukraine seven years later. Ammon, taking over a newspaper ad company, turning it into a $2 billion dollar a year business before starting his own venture capital firm.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His reputation was that of a preeminent deal maker, very smart guy, and able to make money.
Ammon, also philanthropist, generous with time and money. Sharing the prestigious jazz at Lincoln Center, and donating $50 million dollar to his alma mater, Bucknell University. Also saving New York City landmarks.
PHILLIP HOWARD, CHMN. MUNICIPAL ART SOCIETY: Most people are so overworked, you know, you sort of have to beg for their attention. And eventually, you get some help. Ted actually affirmatively enjoyed going out and doing something that made the city a better place. FEYERICK: Jenna Rosa Ammon gave husband a surprised 50th birthday party, taking 20 of his closest friends to the Virgin Islands. Friends unaware the outwardly golden marriage was unraveling. In the summer of 2000, Jenna Rosa filed for divorce.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were a lot of problems at home. I mean, everyone knew that. And Ted would talk to me about how worried he was about the children.
FEYERICK: As he battled his wife over custody, she moved with the children into $2000 a night suite the Stan Hope Hotel, across from the Metropolitan Museum of art.
And that wasn't the only legal battle Ted Ammon was involved in. Two former personal assistants sued him, saying he stiffed them on $2 million dollars in pay and other promised benefits.
Meanwhile, Ammon was suing his Fifth Avenue apartment building for rejecting a $9 million dollar buyer. Both suits active last fall.
By late October of last year, the divorce was about to be resolved, giving Jenna Rosa about half the estimated $51 million dollar fortune. And despite more than a year of litigation, Ammon never changed his will. His last weekend alive, Ted Abbott ate dinner in New York City Friday night, later driving alone to his Hamptons estate, where he would later be murdered. To police, robbery didn't seem like a motive.
JOHN GIERASCH, SUFFOLK COUNTY POLICE: The house is generally neat. It's not ransacked. Having said that, I'm in no position to say whether or not there's anything missing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pelosi's attorney say he has provided DNA evidence to police, but wouldn't say whether he had spoken to them. Jenna Rosa's lawyer and police say she's cooperating with investigators. Her only statement, on paper.
"It is true that at the time of my husband's death, we had been embroiled in a very difficult matrimonial proceeding. However, I believe the most important consideration now is that our children be protected from this said about their parents that can only bring them further pain."
After the murder, she moved with the children and new husband Daniel Pelosi, to Ammon's estate in England. In his statement to CNN, Pelosi said he had no motive for murder. The divorce agreement paved the way for may marriage to Generosa. And for Ted, the freedome that he wanted. My personal relationship with Ted was cordial and friendly," Pelosi said, adding "I had no reason to see Ted Ammon."
Pelosi is now back on Long Island, facing drunk driving charges from a month before the murder. Police say he was driving Ted Ammon's BMW at the time. He denies he was behind the wheel, but the judge asked him to surrender his passport. He has been convicted of DUI twice before. Friends of Ted Ammon, who packed memorial service at Lincoln Center, are offering a $25,000 reward for information leading to an arrest.
I hope that the place finds who did it, and that that person or persons are prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I mean, what happened to him should happen to nobody.
FEYERICK: Questions surrounding the Ammon murder still very much alive.
Deborah Feyerick, CNN, New York.
BROWN: One mystery down, another to go. Up next, the case of the Kennedy cousin accused of murder, a murder more than a quarter century ago. This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: More true crime tonight. My goodness, what are we becoming? A mystery that goes back decades. And the central figure is someone who would call Robert F. Kennedy "uncle." Jury selection began today in the case of Michael Skakel, charged in the murder of a neighbor of his in Greenwich, Connecticut home.
Back a long time ago, Martha Moxley, she was beaten to death with a golf club. At the time of her murder, it was Halloween, 1975. They were both 15-year old kids.
Now Kaskakel is 41, and he's being charged as an adult, in and of itself an interesting issue. Fanny Weinstein of "people magazine" is covering the case and joins us tonight. Nice to see you. Fannie Weinstein: nice to be here.
BROWN: Jury selection began today in the case of Michael Skakel, charged in the murder of a neighbor of his Greenwich, Connecticut home.
Back a long time ago, Martha Moxley, she was beaten to death with a golf club. At the time of her murder it was Halloween 1975. They were both 15-year-old kids. Kakel's now 41, was charged as an adult in of itself. And interesting issue.
Fannie Weinsten, of "People" magazine has covered the case. And she's with us tonight.
Nice to see you. Jury selection, if people haven't never been in courtroom, it's often quite fascinating to watch. Could glean much of what the two sides were looking for today?
FANNIE WEINSTEIN, "PEOPLE": Yeah, you definitely could. In case with this much publicity, jury selection could be a long and tedious, and really a drawn out process. But today was actually pretty interesting.
From the defense point of view, from the questions that defense lawyer, Michael Skakel's lead attorney Mickey Sherman, asked jurors, prospective jurors. You could get an idea of just what he was looking for. He asked them, for example, almost everyone what they thought of the O.J. Simpson trial.
BROWN: Why was that important?
WEINSTEIN: He asked them, did it make them lose faith in the criminal justice system. He asked them if, because of that trial, they thought defense lawyers were sleazy. I think that was his exact words. He also frequently asked prospective jurors about the movie "12 Angry Men," which as you know is...
BROWN: The great courtroom drama of all time?
WEINSTEIN Yes, 1957 Henry Fonda film, in which Henry Fonda plays a juror in a murder trial, who very slowly convinces the other jurors, the other 11 members of the panel that the case isn't as quite as open and shut as it may have appeared to be in the courtroom. He was looking for his Henry Fonda, someone who said...
BROWN: And he was also, it sounds to me, I wasn't there, planting a seed...
WEINSTEIN: Oh, sure.
BROWN: That you have reasonable doubt is a real thing. I assume both sides are sensitive to the fact that this is a Kennedy involved.
WEINSTEIN: Right. Michael Skakel, the defendant, his father, Rush Skakel is Ethel Kennedy's brother. Ethel Kennedy, of course, being the widow of Robert F. Kennedy. There were no Kennedys present in court today. Although according to Mickey Sherman, Michael Skakel's defense attorney, Bobby, Jr. did call this morning to wish him good luck.
BROWN: Did they ask about -- do they ask the prospective jurors their feelings about the Kennedy family?
WEINSTEIN: Yes, they did, both sides did. And obviously, both sides have an interest in that. And for the defense, for instance, they asked whether you might think, oh, he's rich and he's a Kennedy and thinks he could get away with murder. So the defense, if someone was "anti-Kennedy," they would want to know that.
BROWN: Now we're both doing that quote thing with their hands.
WEINSTEIN: Otherwise, the prosecution though, they were asking people, you know, do you have a lot of warm feelings towards the Kennedys? Were you a Kennedy supporter? It turned one prospective juror was a member of Democratic party and had actually met one of the Kennedy cousins at a fund-raiser. This may have made him not so attractive to the prosecution.
BROWN: Yes. Just about minute and a half here. Enormous pretrial publicity here, particularly if you've lived in the Northeast during all of this. I assume they were trying to figure out how much people knew and whether people had made up their minds. Did jurors seem to know a lot?
WEINSTEIN: Actually, I thought that was kind of surprising. Jurors knew a little less than actually I thought they would. I think we in the media forget sometimes that people aren't as maybe -- up -- obsessed with the case as we are. And many said they knew that a murder took place. They knew -- they heard something about a golf club. They heard...
BROWN: But they knew some of it?
WEINSTEIN: Yeah, they knew it had happened a long time ago.
BROWN: Just before the clock gets us here. The Louis Rukeheyser moment, the former PFS financial guy, called as a perspective juror?
WEINSTEIN: Right, prospective juror. He was one of 24 brought in. And when he came up, 12 were dismissed, including him this morning. They cited various work and family obligations as to why they couldn't sit through a five week trial.
And he said, he mentioned, you know well, you may have heard that I was dismissed recently as after 32 years with the Public Broadcasting System. And he said his lawyers are currently preparing a civil action. So he'll be busy with a lawsuit of his own. So he was dismissed.
BROWN: So if you're trying to get off of jury duty, that's the way to do. Nice to see you. Thanks for coming.
WEINSTEIN: Thanks for having me.
BROWN: Appreciate it. We'll check back with you again. Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, 4,000-year-old conflict solved in six easy steps. Are you kidding me?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The Israeli pioneer David Bengurion once said this about his country, "In Israel, in order to be a realist, you have to believe in miracles." You might want to keep that in mind when you listen to what our colleague, Jeff Greenfield, has to say about the situation in the Middle East tonight. Jeff, welcome. It's nice to see you.
JEFF Good to see you. Remember that the late humorist, Will Rogers, once proposed a way to end submarine warfare forever: just heat the oceans to the boiling point, he said, so no one could ever use a sub.
When someone asked, well, how are you going to do that? Rogers replied, "Hey, I've come up with the plan. Somebody else fill in the details."
In that spirit, I've got right here the sure-fire solution to permanent, lasting peace in the Middle East.
(BEGIN VIEOTAPE) First, persuade Israel to give up all of the occupied territories, from which countless terrorist missions have been launched against it. Second, persuade Israel to remove, by force if necessary, some 200,000 settlers in Gaza and the West Bank, who believe they are there on a mission from God, and who's presence have a strong political support in Israel.
Third, convince two generations of Palestinians that they are not going to get to back to the lands which their families fled, or abandoned, some 50 years ago.
[explosion]
Fourth, convince several tens of thousands of Palestinians that their highest aspiration in life should not be blowing up themselves. And as many Israeli citizens as possible. Fifth, convince the rulers of Iran, Iraq and Syria to stop funneling arms, money and support to terrorist groups.
Oh, and while you're at it, convince them, and moderate states like Egypt and Saudi Arabia, to stop running stories in the government-controlled press explaining how Jews killed Christians and Muslims for blood with which to make matzos.
Sixth, persuade two groups who have been killing each other for decades to behave as neighbors, roughly the way, say, The United State And Canada, or France and Belgium do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
And there you have it, permanent peace in our time. Please do not bother me with details. And please tell the Nobel peace prize committee they can send the check to me right here at CNN in New York -- Aaron.
BROWN: And they say we'd only have problems, not solutions.
There you go. It is not to see you and good to see you long in. We'll see you tomorrow night. Good-night for all of us.
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