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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Israeli Offensive Ends Seventh Day; Student Protesters Clash With Lebanese Police; Abu Zubaydah Talks to Investigators
Aired April 03, 2002 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
There is a story that's been floating around for a day now that has a way of stopping you cold when you think about it. Israeli forces have given reporters a look at a document they say they found in Yasser Arafat's compound. It is pretty much an expense sheet or an accounting ledger for terror, dated five days after the September 11 attacks in the United States. Sort of an itemized accounting for the cost of an unknown number of suicide bombings.
And like an accountant's ledger, it is broken down into categories, seven of them: costs of printed announcements, invitations and mourners shelters for martyrs, about $250; cost of memorial ceremonies for martyrs, $1,200; costs of electricity products and various chemical materials to make bombs, $4,200. This is the greatest expenditure, the document says. Perhaps that's the most chilling line of all.
Perhaps it's all fake and we may never know. But my gut says it's not. My instinct says it's real, and what a strange and sick document it is. But then what a strange and sick time this is. The war widening, the death toll mounting, lots of reasons to fear that events are no longer within anyone's control. It's as if history is now calling the shots.
Again, lots of time tonight on the Middle East. How could we not? "The Whip" begins in Jerusalem. CNN's Christiane Amanpour is there. Christiane, a headline from you tonight, please.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, as Israel's military offensive ended its seventh day, the Bush administration says it wants a cease-fire, but does the Israeli prime minister? CNN has learned that Israeli government has rebuffed a request by special envoy Anthony Zinni to go to see Arafat in Ramallah.
BROWN: Christiane, more for you in a moment on that tantalizing piece of information. Anger in Beirut and signs of a second front opening on the Israeli/Lebanese border. Brent Sadler from Beirut tonight. The headline from you, Brent.
BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Aaron, anger and frustration towards United States policy in the Middle East burst outside the American embassy here when student protesters clashed with Lebanese police. Hours later, Hezbollah guerrillas attacked Israeli troops in a borderzone flash point at the foot of the Golan Heights, triggering retaliatory Israeli air raids, amid growing concerns in the region that a second war front could be opening up in the Israeli- Palestinian conflict.
BROWN: Brent, thank you. We'll be back to you shortly as well.
A top al Qaeda figure in U.S. custody. Word today that he is talking some. Kelli Arena covering that. Kelli, the headline.
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Abu Zubaydah is talking, but the challenge is to keep him talking. The U.S. believes the al Qaeda leader could have information on other terrorist cells and maybe even plans for future attacks.
BROWN: Kelli, thank you. Back with all of you shortly.
A big mix of other things on the menu tonight, and we are not exaggerating. Would we exaggerate?
A disturbing picture to show you here. This is not a synagogue in Israel. This is a synagogue in France. Anti-Semitism on the rise. We'll get some wisdom on what's happening from Father Tom Hartman and his dear friend and ours, Rabbi Marc Gellman, better known to most of you as the God Squad.
We'll meet a former Major League Baseball player, and doesn't have anything to do with the start of the Major League Baseball season. Tom Paciorek (ph) says he was a victim of abuse by a man who went on to become a priest.
And a fascinating book from Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates. He didn't write it the book. He found it, the first known book written by a black woman who was a slave. Professor Gates joins us in a little bit.
But we begin with the Middle East. With all that's been happening there and an awful lot going on again tonight, as one of our producers said this evening, there are simply too many moving parts to the story. Sometimes it is helpful to see the larger picture first, the overall tone and events of the day. It seems like one of those times. So here is today in the Middle East in brief.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): On day six of the Israeli offensive against the Palestinian militias, the war got wider again. Israeli tanks, armored vehicles and jeeps poured into the West Bank's largest city of Nablus.
Outside, a teeming Palestinian refugee camp called Jenin, still more fighting. Ominously, to the north, a second front. On the border between Israel and Lebanon, there were fierce battles between Israeli forces and Hezbollah guerrillas. You could hear the artillery and you could see the helicopters dropping flares. In the ancient city of Bethlehem, more death today and more wounded. By nightfall, a group of Italian journalists and several other foreigners had been evacuated by a special force of American federal police and other security officials. An unknown number of Palestinians remained barricaded inside the Church of the Nativity, and Israeli army commanders are growing impatient.
COL. MIRI EISEN, ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCE: If they would put down the arms, we'd have armed terrorists within the Church of the nativity in Bethlehem, they'd put down the arms and let the priests, the nuns that are inside, together with the dozens of militants to come out, because, as I said, they're presenting it that Israel won't let them out. We will only go in. We want to get out. We're not interested in being there.
BROWN: Back in Washington, not much public movement at all today. The president, his spokesman said again, was content with his support for the Israelis.
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president understands that after a nation suffers a suicide bombing that took place, that a nation has a right to defend itself.
BROWN: But the Arab world is inflamed. This is Beirut, the American embassy. In Cairo, Egypt suspended virtually all contacts with Israel, but stopped short of formerly severing diplomatic ties.
NABIL FABMY, EGYPTIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES: What is happening in the occupied territories, the Israeli actions against President Arafat and against the Palestinians, their siege is simply unacceptable to us.
BROWN: At day's end, at least a dozen Palestinians were dead. So is one Israeli soldier. And Yasser Arafat remained bottled up inside his compound in Ramallah.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(on camera): According to some estimates, Arafat has about 300 people with him in the compound: aides, security guards, number of foreign volunteers. He's not starving either. The Israeli government today sent in some food, water, medicine into the compound. Mr. Arafat also has the use of a cell phone. And there are reports that he is staying in touch with some members of the Israeli government.
And beyond the compound, his aides are keeping busy trying to get their side out, their message. For more on that angle and the other late developments, we go back to Jerusalem and Christiane Amanpour. Christiane, good evening.
AMANPOUR: Good evening, Aaron. Well, the latest that CNN has learned about any attempt to try to broker a cease-fire, as you know, General Anthony Zinni is still here, although he's been able to do very little since the Israeli offensive started last Friday.
CNN has learned that the U.S. ambassador here in Israel asked the Israeli government, Ariel Sharon, on Monday to allow Anthony Zinni to go to Ramallah and see Yasser Arafat. That request was rebuffed, according to people who have told CNN. According to the Israeli officials, they reportedly said that it was too dangerous for him to go and seek a cease-fire with Yasser Arafat. But other officials have told CNN that they believe the Israelis are determined to fully isolate Arafat and press on with their offensive at the moment without engaging in political or cease-fire talks.
We spoke to a senior Palestinian official earlier today. His name is Sari Nusseibeh. A respected academic and politician, he is the PLO representative to Jerusalem. Often at odds with Palestinian leadership, he says that he believes both sides, Israel and the Palestinians, have given up on politics for the moment. He also says that he doesn't believe the Palestinian strategy of intifada has worked.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARI NUSSEIBEH, PLO REPRESENTATIVE IN JERUSALEM: This is a fight in which no side can win militarily over the other. We cannot break Israel's will by the use of force of suicide attacks or shootings. And Israelis cannot break our will, the Palestinian people's will. We cannot break each others' will by the use of force. No way to do this. We have to negotiate if there's going to be a future.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Now, again, on the issue of trying to attempt to broker some kind of truce, some kind of cease-fire, we spoke to an opposition Israeli leader today who said that with Anthony Zinni here and unable to do anything meaningful in terms of brokering any kind of cease-fire, he's wondering why Anthony Zinni remains here. Back to you, Aaron.
BROWN: Back to me on an intriguing note. Let's go back to this question of cease-fire. Talk a little more about it. The argument here, as your sources are telling you, is that the Israelis see an advantage for themselves in this situation, and they are ready, even if the Palestinians wanted to end this. They're not ready to do what -- their advantage has not been pressed enough?
AMANPOUR: Well, separately from what we've just reported from CNN sources in Washington and around the region, Israeli officials basically told me earlier this week that they planned to do all they can and all they will militarily in the hope that that lays the groundwork for future political solution.
But the Palestinians are saying that by decapitating the only Palestinian leadership that is able and is the legitimate Palestinian elected leadership, there is very little hope that after a massive military offensive like this those kind of political negotiations could take place.
But obviously, people are hoping that there may be some room at some point for -- to go back to square one and try to broker a cease- fire and all the other political issues that follow it. BROWN: You're much smarter on this sort of thing than I. Do you hear in any of the public statements that are being made on either side any subtle shifting in tone that suggests a corner has been turned?
AMANPOUR: Definitely a corner, but not a subtle corner that's being turned. A very, very big and massive corner is being turned. Certainly we're hearing from the Palestinians and indeed the Israelis that this is a major turning point. And some people, Palestinians mainly, believe that they may not be able to emerge from this. Others think that this is all part of essentially a declared and public position by Ariel Sharon who is on record as not at all approving of the Oslo peace process and wanting to shape his own political vision for a future Palestinian solution.
So a turning point, we are very aware has been made. How one gets back from this brink, everybody is asking that. People are really, even the Americans in Anthony Zinni's delegation are telling us privately that they're very, very depressed about this.
BROWN: Understandably so. Christiane Amanpour, thank you, in Jerusalem for us tonight.
This wave of violence, of course, began 18 months ago when Ariel Sharon, who was not yet the Israeli prime minister, made a visit to one of those places in Jerusalem that is important and holy to both Jews and to Islam as well. Today, the battle spread to one of those places that is important and special to Christians, to the town of Bethlehem, and the standoff at the Church of the Nativity. Scores of armed Palestinians remain holed up behind church walls, a spokesman for the Israeli government calling that "an ultimate act of cynicism." CNN's Ben Wedeman, now in Bethlehem.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On a cold and rainy day, a delegation of Christian leaders tries to convince Israeli soldiers to let them enter Bethlehem. Their goal, to end the standoff at the Church of The Nativity.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Give us a chance to go and see what we can do. If one of us is hurt, well, we're responsible for our lives, OK? We won't say that you hit us. We will say someone else hit us.
WEDEMAN: They were turned back. Bethlehem has been declared a closed military area. Israeli forces now control most of this ancient town, the birthplace of Christ. They crush everything in their way. The population cowers behind closed doors.
(on-camera): Bethlehem is now under around-the-clock curfew, desperate or reckless, those who dare venture out. This ambulance isn't going anywhere, its drivers fearing for their lives.
(voice-over): In one house, the bodies of a man and woman. The dead are this man's brother and mother, killed on Monday. He's been waiting for an ambulance to take them away. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Until now, 27 hours, I am calling...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So we don't know how many house, how many injured, how many dead? It's extremely unbelievable what's going on with them these days.
WEDEMAN: At the edge of Bethlehem at the village of Beit Jala, the Israeli curfew is lifted for a few hours, a chance to buy yesterday's bread.
"The only solution is more suicide bombing," says this man. "That's the only way to deter Israel, to deter Sharon."
Another delegation tries to get in, this one with more worldly clout and more success. American, British and Japanese diplomats and security personnel evacuated nationals desperate to get out of Bethlehem, fleeing an unholy war in the Holy Land.
Ben Wedeman, CNN, Bethlehem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: So it is all very bad, and every sign you see out there indicates it will get worse, at least in the short term, before it gets better. Already there is fighting on Israel's northern border, the border with Lebanon, fighting between Israeli forces and Hezbollah forces there. A dangerous prospect of another front opening, a wider regional war.
Even without that, in Arab capitals there is growing and dangerous anger building, dangerous because it threatens the stability of those countries, and more instability is the last thing the region needs. And again, Lebanon is a case in point. Here again, CNN's Brent Sadler.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRENT SADLER, CNN BEIRUT BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): It was supposed to be a day of peaceful protest, a venting of anti-Israeli and anti-American sentiment. Students converged on an approach road to the American embassy on the city outskirts. But it quickly turned into a pitch battle after Lebanese security forces blocked their way. Protesters hurled stones at riot police, who forced them back with tear gas and water cannons. Police had orders to use necessary force to prevent them marching on the embassy. It included this officer firing tear gas canisters into the crowd, missing CNN's cameraman, slicing through his jacket.
Student leaders said they were enraged that their own police prevented them demonstrating in front of the embassy.
LOAY SAYAH, STUDENT: You were held out a kilometer and so this is quite frustrating. I mean you're there to make a point to the American diplomats. It wasn't about storming the embassy.
SADLER: But it was supposed to be about protesting Israel's military action against the Palestinians and highlighting a widely held belief here that U.S.-Middle East policy is biased towards Israel.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SADLER: A message obscured by this brief spell of violence and completely overshadowed by a series of Hezbollah attacks against Israeli occupation troops at the foot of the Golan Heights, in an area known as the Sheba (ph) Farms.
Now, that is a very crucial flashpoint and could possibly leads to the opening of a second front on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.
United Nations efforts at the highest levels are being made, representations to both the Syrian and Lebanese governments to try to damp down a worsening security situation along that very volatile Lebanese-Israeli border -- Aaron.
BROWN: Let's talk a little bit about that. I want to know how to characterize this, are these battles, are these skirmishes, are these quick exchanges? How would you describe what's going on there?
SADLER: I described these as contained attacks by Hezbollah, aiming at the military, the Israeli troops that have positions in this area known as the Sheba (ph) Farms. They are virtually in eyeball to eyeball situations, Hezbollah and the Israelis, and certainly Hezbollah has been using mortars, rockets, antitank weapons against those fixed Israeli positions. That prompted Israel to hit back with heavy artillery, and today Israeli retaliatory air strikes. As long as it remains contains, maybe it's not a problem. But the big concern is that sooner or later something could go wrong there, and that could then lead to Hezbollah firing Katushas into northern Israel.
One single rogue Katusha rocket was fired into the northern Israeli settlement, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) a few days ago. We don't know who fired it. But certainly the highest levels there concerned that Israel, Lebanon and Syria could get embroiled in the big conflict at the same time as you have what's going on in the Palestinian territories. Very worrying for everybody here -- Aaron.
BROWN: Brent, thank you. Brent Sadler in Beirut tonight.
Up next, we'll talk with former Senator George Mitchell about what he thinks could be done to solve the conflict in the Middle East. He of course is the author of the Mitchell plan for peace there.
And later on, the story of a well known baseball player and sexual abuse at the hands of man who became a Catholic priest. All of that ahead on NEWSNIGHT from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The Mitchell plan is the most comprehensive peace plan for the Middle East that still exists out there, though we seem a long way from implementing it. Its author is former Senator George Mitchell, and senator joins us from Washington tonight. It's nice to see you, sir, as always.
I don't know if you're able to hear Christiane's report, but she's reporting that General Zinni wanted to go, meet with Arafat, discuss a cease-fire, and the Israeli government said no, he can't go in there and talk to him. What do you make of that?
GEORGE MITCHELL, FORMER SENATE MAJORITY LEADER: Well, if true, of course, it's unfortunate. I would hope that General Zinni would be able to see and talk with anyone of his choice in either society while he's there. He's trying to do a job in an obviously extremely difficult circumstance.
BROWN: But doesn't it suggest -- I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth -- suggest to me, at least, that the Israelis have a plan, and they're not quite done with it yet. And they don't want anybody getting in the way?
MITCHELL: Well, I think they're in a tough situation, Aaron. Any government would be responding to the kind of horrific attacks that have occurred over the past week, killing so many Israeli civilians, but the stated purpose of their attacks is twofold. To end terrorism, or at least to reduce it, and to marginalize Arafat.
And of course, the result has been precisely the opposite. Terror is increasing, and Arafat's stature is higher than it's ever been among his own people and among the Arab nations. And so the question becomes, at what point does the policy take into account the consequences that are occurring and leave open, as the president suggested, a pathway to get back to negotiation.
I think there is going to eventually have to be negotiation. I don't think there could be a military solution to this conflict. Neither side can accomplish its objective in that way. And so I think in the end, there will be an negotiation.
BROWN: Do you -- I was going to say, do you think, but actually I believe it's the kind of thing you would know. Do you know if there's any quiet, back channel attempts going on to try to at least stop this wave of killing and to get the Israelis to pull back as well?
MITCHELL: In fact, I don't know, but I believe, given the history of this conflict, that there are almost certainly discussions occurring in an effort to arrive at that objective.
BROWN: And as I know you're aware, and I have heard you talked about it some, the president has been criticized both from his left and his right, I guess, for not doing enough or not doing the right things, depending on who you are listening to or perhaps sometimes doing contradictory things. Do you think the president has found the right tone at this point?
MITCHELL: Well, he's obviously in a very difficult situation as is everywhere else. Demands for action, but no clear course and certainly no assurances for success. I think what you've seen in recent weeks, certainly going back to Vice President Cheney's visit to the region is an acceleration of American involvement that is likely to continue and even increase in the coming weeks. The administration, including the president, the secretary of state and others, plainly now recognize that there is a danger of this spinning out of control, with fast and potentially very dangerous circumstances for the United States and our allies, not to mention the people in the region, and that other foreign policy initiatives are simply on the backburner until something is done to bring this under control. Not that you'd get a complete settlement, but you reduce the violence, that you're able to get steps taken to rebuild confidence and get back into negotiation.
BROWN: And do you think the notion of a ultimate political settlement is now years away, given the damage that's been done over particularly the last several months, that there is so much bad feeling on both sides and so much death and so much misery?
MITCHELL: I don't think it's years away. When I first became involved in late 2000, I held the view that the most difficult issues were the final ones -- Jerusalem, the right of return, land issues. But I've now come to the view that the most difficult issue is the first one, getting it into this disaster cycle of violence and getting into meaningful negotiation. The issues has been so widely discussed and debated. I think that most people in the region have at least a general sense of the outline of what will happen. So I think getting started is -- is very difficult and probably the hardest thing of all.
BROWN: That's the most maddening part of this, senator, I think is that in some respects people do know how it will end up. It's always nice to talk to you. We're pleased to have you on the program.
MITCHELL: Thank you, Aaron.
BROWN: Former Senator George Mitchell, the author of the Mitchell plan.
Later on NEWSNIGHT, we'll hear about the growing problem of anti- Semitism in France and across Europe. Up next, details of another American Taliban have been identified. Also, more on the implications of the capturing of a top al Qaeda leader. All of that and more when we continue from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We say the words "American Taliban," we immediately think of John Walker Lindh, the 21-year-old from Marin County, California. Well now there's a new name to remember. Yasser Esam Hamdi is one of the Taliban detainees being held at Guantanamo, and he's now believed to be an American citizen of Saudi origin. He was captured last fall at that prison in Mazar-e Sharif, as was John Walker Lindh. He claimed then and now that he was born in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Hamdi has now produced a birth certificate. Justice Department has now told the Pentagon the birth certificate is genuine.
Of the hundreds of al Qaeda and Taliban fighters captured in the war on terrorism, there's probably none of more potential value than Abu Zubaydah. Zubaydah, who was snared in a raid in Pakistan, is thought to be one of the very top people in al Qaeda, and in the short time he's been in custody, it is said that he's provided some valuable information. More now from CNN's Kelli Arena.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The captured al Qaeda leader, Abu Zubaydah, is talking, and according to a highly placed U.S. government source, he is providing some limited information to interrogators.
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Here is a man who knows about additional terrorist acts, here is a man who trained people to do this.
ARENA: What's more, some officials believe the U.S. may have interrupted a planned terrorist attack, although a specific target has not been identified. That learned by investigators as they go through materials found during last week's raids in Pakistan, during which Zubaydah and others were arrested.
Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld denied reports the U.S. is considering handing over Zubaydah to another country where investigators could possibly use harsher techniques in their interrogations.
RUMSFELD: We are responsible for his detention, and we intend to remain responsible for his detention. And that means exactly what it means. That we, the United States of America are responsible for him.
ARENA: Zubaydah is wanted by not only the United States, but by Jordan, which indicted him for his alleged role in a thwarted millennium bombing plot. Officials still will not say where Zubaydah is being held, government sources say one place he won't be taken, at least for now, is Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, where he might be able to communicate with other detainees.
Officials say while the president has not made a final decision, it is expected Zubaydah will be tried by a U.S. military tribunal. Zubaydah is a top al Qaeda leader, said to be in charge of operations and responsible for recruiting new members.
DANIEL BENJAMIN, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL OFFICIAL: He's someone who could pull the strings, who could coordinate highly complicated operations, in different countries and guide them towards the execution of a terrorist plot.
ARENA: In a briefing with reporters, FBI Director Robert Mueller acknowledged Zubaydah's arrest -- quote -- "assists in helping preventing another terrorist attack," but he didn't offer any details.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ARENA: The FBI director added that the threat of terrorism remains high, stressing al Qaeda members who have not been caught still have the -- quote -- "capability and the desire to carry out attacks" -- Aaron.
BROWN: Let me throw a couple of things. I'm not sure -- I'm not sure you know the answer, I'm not sure they're fair, honestly. Do we know anything about who is doing the interrogating, what sort of methods are being used? Why this guy is talking? And why we have any reason to believe what he's saying?
ARENA: Boy, well, let's start from the beginning. We do know that FBI agents were on the ground during his capture, and that they have been involved in the interrogations, and that CIA is involved as well. The Pakistani authorities were very much involved in that process and I do believe that they have some peripheral involvement still to this day.
Why he is talking? We don't know. Is he providing any juicy details? Not yet. He's providing more than his name, was one quote. Talking but it was surprising that he had anything to say. Because, as you know, we have reported repeatedly that most of these people do not cooperate at all.
BROWN: Kelli, thank you. You parried those questions, I think there were four of them, pretty darn well. Thank you very much. Kelly Arena tonight.
Later on NEWSNIGHT, the fascinating story of a just discovered novel, written by a slave. This is the back story here, how it came to be is fascinating. Harvard professor, Henry Louis Gates will be here.
Up next, questions of faith in the battle between faiths, anti- Semitism in France. And we'll talk with the God squad, as well.
This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: There is France tragically a long and troubled history of anti-Semitism. And in the last few weeks a new chapter was been written, particularly in France.
Here's CNN's Jim Bittermann.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Officials in France say they do not want the anger of the Middle East played out here. But earlier this week it looked unavoidable. As supporters of Yasser Arafat returned to Paris from Ramallah, pro and anti-Israeli factions got into fist fight at the airport. The police had their hands full keeping the two sides apart.
More seriously French police are having an even harder time combating a series of anti-Semitism attacks against Jewish synagogues, schools, cemeteries and butcher shops. This synagogue in Marseilles was burned to the ground. And Jewish leaders count nearly two dozen lesser attacks against other synagogues. Jewish community leaders have been warning about the upsurge in violence for months, and on the eve of elections here, the government has begun to share their alarm. Dispatching 1,100 additional police to protect Jewish neighborhood.
But Roger Cukierman, a community spokesman, says it must go further.
ROGER CUKIERMAN, PRESIDENT JEWISH REP. COUNCIL: Things can only be stopped if police is arresting aggressors, and making sure strong examples with a lot of publicity.
BITTERMANN: Cukierman says strong statements against Israeli tactics by the French prime minister and foreign minister along with media coverage of Middle East conflict had inflamed the situation in France. And there are growing protests by French Muslims angered by the Israeli government actions against the Palestinian.
(on camera): Palestinian representative here urged Arabs to not translate their hatred for the Israeli government of Ariel Sharon into hatred for the Jews of France, but a Jewish spokesman said those behind the attacks have neither the inclination nor interest in making such a careful distinction.
(voice-over): Those who have seen anti-Semitism in Europe at its worse, like French lawyer Sam Pisar believes the climate against the Jews now is as bad as it has been since World War II. Pisar, a Polish born Jew, who survived Auschwitz and two other concentration camps, and has lived more than half his life in France, says he never thought he would again face a time when Jews were persecuted here.
SAM PISAR, PARIS ATTORNEY: Not enough is being done to stem the whole thing. People are just letting it go, and praying that it will not explode. I think it could become much worse, it needs careful and rapid attention.
BITTERMANN: In a country with the largest Jewish and Islamic communities in Europe, the authorities will have to pay careful attention to keep the situation under control. Jim Bittermann, CNN, Paris.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Well, almost whenever the subject of religion is on the table in any form, we return to old and dear friends of our's Father Tom Hartman and Rabbi Marc Gellman. Collectively and affectionately known as the God squad. I can't tell you how nice it is to see you both. Wish the circumstances were better.
Marc, when you see things like this going on in Europe, it's hard not to think of history and experience it's far different for European Jews than American Jews.
MARC GELLMAN, RABBI: Anti-Semitism I think is the cultural virus of Europe, just like racism is the cultural virus of America. There's a long history of anti-semitic pressure against the Jewish communities in Europe. Emancipation of the Jewish communities was slow and difficult. And that legacy comes out and it comes out at the worse moments, and moments of stress.
BROWN: What is starting -- and I see this a bit in the mail in the notes we get here. It's Starting to play out, is a sense that America -- United States ought not be involved in the part of the world simply to save Jews. That's how people phrase it.
GELLMAN: Yes. That might work before 9/11, but the truth is that now it's obvious that the West is the target. And that all of this is just rhetoric, used by Islamists to make it worse.
It's the strange and terrible merging of ancient, actually Christian rooted anti-Semitism with now Muslim anti-Semitism, there was an article in the official Saudi paper, the Jews use blood to make motzahs. It's awful.
BROWN: Let me turn to Tom. When you see this as Catholic, how does it play on you? How do you see this?
TOM HARTMAN, PRIEST: Well, I feel very sad. I feel sad for our own history in the terms of holocaust, and the inquisition, the crusades. I was heartened when I heard the pope come out and apologize and Cardinal Leguezade (ph), the cardinal there. As I look out, I think what is needed is people, every day people to stand up and say, we don't want this, and leaders to do the same. Unless there's strong statement against this this, I fear there will be more anti-semetism.
BROWN: Who's voice needs to be heard here? I mean, who's not saying it that ought to say it?
HARTMAN: Well, I think teachers in school. I think parents at home. But ultimately, religious leaders. What strikes me about all that's going on in the world is it's easy to get into eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. And politically and militarily, it is not going to work. The only hope that I see is a spiritual one, in which people pull themselves away from the conflict and ask themselves, is this the way we really want to live with each other.
BROWN: And now, as we sit here tonight, Bethlehem, this important place, is involved in this. Is this a religious war going on?
HARTMAN: Well, thus far, it isn't, in my mind, a religious war. But it is in danger of becoming a religious war. It will be a real tragedy if you took places like Bethlehem, which is sacred to, you know, Christians and you were to destroy them in any way. And I think first, we're destroying the hearts of people. I hope we don't destroy the souls of people.
BROWN: Marc, I've got a minute left. If you want to beg off on this, you tell me and I'll come up with another question. But last time I saw you was almost two weeks after the 11th. I think it was a Sunday, Yankee Stadium. Just tell me how difficult an experience that was to be at that memorial that day. GELLMAN: It was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. Tommy and I, I think together, have been at over 30 funerals without a single body since that day. And to be in a place -- we did TWA Flight 800. And there were maybe 100-200 families. There were 50,000 grieving families there. The grief, Aaron, the grief was like a thing. It was like a thing that smothered you. And I think only in the last few weeks have I been able to breathe. And now, I'm not breathing anymore.
BROWN: Well, come back and breathe with us again. You know, I used to get you to come in at 8:00 in the morning sometimes to do another program, another time. Surely I can get you back again. It's great to see you both.
(CROSSTALK)
God bless you guys. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Sometimes the way a book comes to be, what we would call the backstory, is almost as interesting as the book itself. This is the case with the book we're going to talk about for a few minutes tonight.
The story begins last summer -- well, in some ways, the story begins a lot longer ago than that -- when Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates spotted an intriguing title at an antique auction catalog, "The Bondwoman's Narrative." Gates was the only bidder for this handwritten manuscript by a female slave from the 1850s. The novel by Hannah Crafts is about a women's life as a slave, her escape to the north. It's thought to be the first novel we know of, at least, by a female slave. Maybe even the first novel by an African-American woman anywhere. And it's now out in hardback. And Professor Gates joins is with us now. It's nice to meet you. Thank you.
HENRY LOUIS GATES JR., HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Nice to meet you.
BROWN: You have got a great eye, that you spotted this. Are you sure, 100 percent positive, it is what you believe it is?
GATES: I have a mountain of circumstantial evidence. That's the best we can do. But I'm very sure. There's no doubt in my mind that she was a fugitive slave, that she was a black woman, and that she wrote what turns out to be the most compelling novel written by a black person in the 19th century.
BROWN: And do we know much about her? I can't honestly say that I read the whole thing, but I was reading a bit tonight. And this is not -- I'm trying to think how do I want to phrase this -- this is clearly someone who is quite literate.
GATES: She's quite literate, but she's an auto-diadect (ph) and she's self-trained. She makes numerous grammatical and spelling errors throughout her text. But she's widely read, but widely read in a certain sense. She's a person who has access to, say, a shelf of books in a middle-class library in the middle of the 19th century.
BROWN: She was a house slave...
GATES: Mm-hmm.
BROWN: ... is that right?
GATES: She was a mulatto and a house servant. She lived in Virginia and she lived in Washington D.C. in the family of John Hill Wheeler (ph), who is the evil antagonist of the story. And then she escapes from North Carolina from the Wheeler family plantation, and she ends up in New Jersey, where she says that she's married to a colored minister in the African Methodist Episcopal Church.
BROWN: I read where you said about her, I need you to explain this, the author is a snob.
GATES: She's a snob.
BROWN: What did you mean?
GATES: She draws direct class distinctions between servants in the house and servants in the field, between the light-complected slaves who are well-educated, articulate, very clean, and all of the field hands who live in what she calls huts.
BROWN: And I'm right that the reason she fled is that she had -- there's a story -- I don't want to give the whole story, but she was perhaps going to be forced to marry a field slave.
GATES: Basically, she was being forced to allow herself to be raped because the evil Mrs. Wheeler was trying to punish her. And so she says, I'm going to throw you out of the house and make you live in the hut with this man and make you work in the fields. And rather than being raped, she runs away to the north dressed as a white male because she's very light-complected.
BROWN: Why is the book important?
GATES: Well, it's important because it's the only handwritten or (UNINTELLIGIBLE) manuscript we have from any black writer in the entire 19th century. Someone asked me the other day, how rare is this? And I said, how rare is one of a kind. And it's the only unmediated glimpse that we have into the mind of a slave. We have hundreds of books published by ex-slaves, but they all were edited to one degree or another. Even the great Frederick Douglass' two slave narratives, published in 1845 and 1855, were to some degree edited. But this is unedited. So it's as if we're reading over her shoulder.
BROWN: Is it unedited? Did she do no editing?
GATES: No, very minimal editing. I mean, we added periods at the end of her sentences. She puts no periods in. She makes many mistakes in grammar.
BROWN: I don't want to ever show you my copy that I write, by the way.
GATES: But we wanted it to be as pristine an encounter with her manuscript as we could recreate, but we wanted to make it readable as well.
BROWN: And, in just a half a minute or less, what would you like people to take away from the book?
GATES: The fact that here is a person who ran away to defend her integrity. And as soon as she escaped to the north, she sat down and testified to the fact that she had suffered, that she endured, and indeed, she had transcended her oppression. That's the story that appeals to all people at all times.
BROWN: It is just a great find, isn't it? I mean, you must have a great instinct?
GATES: Well, it's a miracle. Maybe I'm just lucky.
BROWN: Whatever, it's a fascinating, backstory, the book itself is interesting to read. Congratulations.
GATES: Thank you.
BROWN: And thanks for coming in tonight. And it's called the...
GATES: "The Bondwoman's Narrative."
BROWN: Thank you. I put the "S" in the wrong place. Self- educated am I, too.
We have one more. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We end the program tonight a little differently. Two stories of truth-telling, neither of them light or up, but both of them, we think, hopeful. One of them, personal; the other concerns a good many people -- each, though, is a part of the same broader pattern, the long history of sexual abuse within the Catholic church.
First, the big picture story. The New York Archdiocese today handed over a list of possible cases of abuse to the Manhattan district attorney. The case files go back 40 years. Now, the personal story. It, too, dates back four decades. The scars have taken that long to heal. Here's CNN's John Zarrella.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): When did it start?
TOM PACIOREK: 1962. I was 15 years old, a sophomore in high school.
ZARRELLA (voice-over): Tom Paciorek, star high school athlete, major league baseball player. And now a broadcaster says that was the first time in his words, "he was attacked" by this man, Father Gerald Shirilla.
T. PACIOREK: He was teaching me how to drive, and all of a sudden the touching came, the genital touching. The private areas, which are, you know, totally restricted were not restricted to him. And he made trumped up excuses as to why this was OK.
ZARRELLA: Paciorek says he was abused regularly for four years.
T. PACIOREK: That happened, yeah, I would say 100 times.
ZARRELLA: Shirilla was not yet a priest when he met Paciorek. Shirilla was a teacher here at St. Ladislaus Catholic School in Hamtramck (ph), Michigan. Tom and his older brother John both attended the school. Tom says the worst 72 hours of his life came after more than a year of knowing Shirilla. His parents went out of town, and he was sent to stay with Shirilla, by then studying here at Sacred Heart Seminary to be a priest.
T. PACIOREK: It was like going to hell, because it was one attack at all. I don't think I had ever felt more despair, more hate, more emotion than -- more evil that was going on, because I remember saying, God, is it ever going to end.
ZARRELLA: But despite his despair, Tom never said a word to anyone. Silence he thought was only protecting himself, not knowing that John and two younger brothers would later make the same allegations.
T. PACIOREK: And simultaneously, he was molesting my two younger brothers. One of them was only 8 years old at the time. The other one was 12. And every day that goes by, there's a pain inside of me because I knew I didn't protect my brothers.
ZARRELLA: Mike, here on the left, and Bob on the right, say they understand why their older brothers kept the secret. They were all, the brothers say, "embarrassed and confused," but mainly...
BOB PACIOREK: We came from a strict Catholic family, and anybody in the priesthood, who's a priest, we look at him as Jesus on earth, Lord on earth, you know. And so, my God, this isn't wrong. He's God.
ZARRELLA: Bob, Mike and Tom say many of the molestations took place inside the walls of Sacred Heart Seminary itself. Mike says he was 8 years old at that time.
MIKE PACIOREK: Well, we would stop over there and we would go up to his room. He would lock the door, and he would have me take my clothes off and, you know, give me this massage on my back. It would start off with my back and work his way to places where I didn't want to be touched.
ZARRELLA: The brothers all claim the molestations took place over a period of years, until they left high school and moved on to college. Yet Shirilla remained in their lives. This picture of Tom, Father Shirilla and a family friend was taken in 1973, Tom's rookie year with the Dodgers. Shirilla even presided over Tom's wedding. The Pacioreks admit it's tough to understand this relationship, but what happened to them, they say, is the absolute truth.
T. PACIOREK: I'd be more than happy to take a lie detector test on this, because, as I said earlier, telling the truth is really easy.
ZARRELLA: Paciorek says he decided to go public with his story after he found out a couple of weeks ago that Shirilla was still in the priesthood and was the pastor at this Catholic church, St. Mary's in Alpena, Michigan. Shirilla has since been removed at the request of the Detroit Archdiocese. But through his attorney, he adamantly denies all abuse charges. It wasn't until the mid-1980's that Mike says he told their parents, and Tom's wife. She confronted Shirilla during a phone conversation.
M. PACIOREK: He totally denied it. And he says, "Cris, I'm not a homosexual or a pedophile," and he hung up on her. And that's the last contact anyone in our family, I believe, has had with him.
ZARRELLA: In 1993, the Archdiocese of Detroit, following a lawsuit by another family and complaints by former altar boys, sent Shirilla to a treatment center for a year. According to the archdiocese, Shirilla was indefinitely prohibited from any exercise of priestly ministry.
For the next seven years, his whereabouts are unknown. His attorney says Shirilla was not involved in the ministry, but would not say where he was. It was, the Archdiocese of Detroit says, without their approval or permission that he accepted the assignment at St. Mary's in Northern Michigan, the Diocese of Gaylord.
But a statement from that diocese says the Archdiocese of Detroit, including Cardinal Adam Maida, was aware Shirilla was the pastor at St. Mary's. What happens now, the Pacioreks say it's out of their hands. And it is, Tom says, finally, after 40 years, over.
T. PACIOREK: As I'm running, I hear something inside of me say, it's over. And oh my God, I just lifted my head, and tears fell down my face, and I just said, this is unbelievable joy. It's over. It's going to be over.
ZARRELLA: John Zarrella, CNN, Orlando, Florida.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: That's where we leave you tonight. We'll see you tomorrow. Good night.
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