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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Colin Powell Going to Middle East; Afghans Uncover Plot to Topple Hamid Karzai

Aired April 04, 2002 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone. At the risk of offending, it's not always easy to figure out what this president's Mideast policy is. One day, take one day, last Saturday, the president defended the Israeli incursion into Ramallah, while at the same time his U.N. Ambassador was supporting a resolution to pull those troops back.

The president never wanted to be engulfed by the Middle East. He made that clear, even during the campaign. But events, as this president knows better than almost anyone, determine policy more than policy determines events. And so, with events spinning out of control in the Middle East, the president once again dramatically changed course today.

Mr. Bush said what a lot of people have been thinking enough is enough. He decided that his Secretary of State should go the region next week, and we'll spend a lot of time tonight looking at what the president said, how it's different from what he has said before, and it is.

He put much more pressure on Israel to commit to peace, to pull back from Palestinian areas, and to stop the daily humiliation, those are his words, of Palestinians, stop building Israeli settlements in the territories as well.

But we were also struck by another thing the president said about the tragedy of two peoples pitted against one another. "The future itself is dying," he said today when an 18-year-old Palestinian kills herself and a 17-year-old Israeli girl as well. But that too is the way of the Middle East.

The United States can't make the killing stop. Neither side will do what the president says, simply because he says it. But it is also true that there won't be peace without American involvement and the president, comfortable or not, seemed to accept that today as well.

Once again, the whip is heavy on the Middle East. We begin at the White House and the President's talk today. Major Garrett on the lawn. Major the headline from you please.

MAJOR GARRETT, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron. For days now, the Bush White House has been arguing there's nothing wrong with its Middle East policy (UNINTELLIGIBLE) on the ground notwithstanding. But the President's personal envoy Anthony Zinni was doing a fine job and the Israeli incursions were a legitimate act of self-defense.

Today, that all changed. Now Secretary of State Powell heading to the region, and a very strong call from the Bush White House for those incursions to end -- Aaron.

BROWN: Major thank you, back with you shortly. The reaction today too from the Middle East, Christiane Amanpour in Jerusalem, Christiane the headline please.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, after so much criticism from the Arab countries and from the Europeans and many other parts of the world, so much praise now as many people welcome President Bush stepping in to try to solve this situation. Anthony Zinni goes to talk to Yasser Arafat in his besieged compound in Ramallah, but the Israelis are still telling us that they intend to keep up the pressure.

BROWN: Christiane, thank you. On to Ben Wedeman who is also in Jerusalem now, but his reporting day was spent covering the events in nearby Bethlehem, so Ben the headline from you please.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Aaron, we went to Bethlehem and what we saw was a desperate city, running short of food, running short of medicine, patrolled by Israelis who are also afraid for their lives. Aaron.

BROWN: Ben, thank you. It's been a while since we've gone to Kabul in the whip, but that's what's happening tonight. Walt Rodgers is there for us, a major story out of Afghanistan, Walt the headline please.

WALTER RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron. In Afghanistan, America nearly saw its worst nightmare come true here. Afghan officials say they uncovered and foiled a planned coup against the fragile government of Hamid Karzai.

BROWN: Walt, thank you, back with all of you shortly, a lot tonight to fill out our coverage of the Middle East. Earlier today, I spoke with former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak. We'll have that interview.

We'll also look at an epic clash. It is that between Sharon and Arafat, two men who know their histories well, shared histories in the region. Arafat biographer John Wallach will be here and a friend of Mr. Sharon's, publisher Mort Zuckerman as well.

And then we'll shift gears into two very different stories. We'll take a look at cheating in high schools. It sounds like the oldest story in the playbook, but this one is about schools getting even, using the same technology that students use to cheat in the first place.

And, we'll introduce you tonight to Dwight. likes cars. No that's not right, Dwight loves cars. When he's not thinking about cars, which is most of the time, he works for us here at NEWSNIGHT in master control. Tonight, Dwight goes to the auto show. Dwight is in heaven. You will be too, all of that in the hour ahead.

We begin at the White House. On our morning call today, where we begin going over ideas for the night's program, one of our producers mentioned that the president would have something to say on the Middle East around noon, a little before. Someone on the call, it might have been me said, "same old, same old or new and different?" It turned out to be a little of both.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When an 18-year- old Palestinian girl is induced to blow herself up, and in the process kills a 17-year-old Israeli girl, the future itself is dying.

BROWN (voice over): Feeling pressure from long time allies in Europe and moderate Arab countries whose support he needs in America's War on Terror, the president changed courses again.

BUSH: To lay the foundations of future peace, I ask Israel to halt incursions into Palestinian-controlled areas and begin the withdrawal from those cities it has recently occupied.

BROWN: And while he didn't say immediately, and it won't likely stop the anti-American demonstrations in the Middle East, he did say "get the troops out" something he refused to say just a few days ago.

But it was more than that. With the world seeing a daily barrage of pictures of Palestinian towns under siege, and what often appears to be a general roundup of Palestinian men, the president was sharply critical of Israel's behavior.

BUSH: It is crucial to distinguish between the terrorists and ordinary Palestinians seeking to provide for their own families. The Israeli government should be compassionate at checkpoints, and border crossings, sparing innocent Palestinians daily humiliation.

BROWN: The president, as he has done countless other times, also had sharp words for Yasser Arafat, by a degree at least sharper than anything he has said about Arafat before.

BUSH: The situation in which he finds himself today is largely of his own making. He's missed his opportunities, and thereby betrayed the hopes of the people he's supposed to lead.

BROWN: But this was not just a change in tone. It was a change in policy, the president deciding it was no longer enough to have just a little known envoy in the region. He needed someone of greater stature. He needed to send his Secretary of State. Perhaps Secretary Powell can end the killing or what might follow.

BUSH: The world finds itself at a critical moment. This is a conflict that can widen or an opportunity we can seize.

BROWN: Both in words and deeds, the president signaled a change in course, a welcomed change for those who believe the administration has sat on the sidelines while a dangerous chapter in history was being written.

LEE HAMILTON, WOODROW WILSON CENTER: The president has held back too long. He now will energize his administration to tackle these tough problems in the Middle East. He's shifting his position on a number of key issues.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (on camera): Now, Major Garrett has been talking to people in the White House today about the decision to change course, where it might lead, some of the implications, some of the nuance. He joins us from the lawn tonight. Major, one quick one, and then I think it gets a little more complicated. Does the White House characterize this as a change, significant or otherwise?

GARRETT: Not a change in goals or policy, Aaron, but clearly a change in tactics. The goals and policy are the same, Tenet cease- fire, then a political solution for the Israelis and the Palestinians under Mitchell, but clearly a change in tactics.

The administration was reluctant to dispatch Colin Powell, particularly when there wasn't a deal to close and there isn't a deal to close, but they saw the chaos unraveling. They saw many other negative consequences arising from that chaos, believed they had to stop the bleeding in literal and diplomatic senses, and that's why they made this move.

BROWN: And just one little thing here, which is that Powell, is not simply going to meet, Secretary Powell, with Mr. Arafat. He will try and find others on the Palestinian side to talk to.

GARRETT: Well, there's nothing definitive about his agenda. One thing I've learned tonight, Aaron, is that a lot of the Secretary of State's agenda will be determined by the reaction to what the president said today.

They're looking very much to very positive reactions from the Egyptian leader Hosni Mubarak and King Abdullah in Jordan, from others within the Palestinian movement, and the Secretary of State will basically sit down with everybody who had positive and responsive things to say about what the president laid out today.

What the president laid out today, the White House argues, is his most comprehensive statement to date about all the issues, political, military and diplomatic.

BROWN: Major, thank you. Major Garrett on the White House lawn for us this evening. It is noteworthy, we think, that the president did not send Secretary Powell into the region today or tomorrow. He is giving the Israelis some time to act.

But the change in tone was not lost on the Israeli government. We heard their representative in New York say late today that Israel will leave the territories when its mission is done and not before. At the same time, no Israeli government wants to get into a fight with the U.S. government, so it is a tricky morning in Jerusalem indeed. With that we go back to Christiane Amanpour in Jerusalem. Christiane, good evening.

AMANPOUR: Aaron, the special U.S. Envoy here, Anthony Zinni, in a few hours will be going to Ramallah to meet with Yasser Arafat in his besieged compound there. The Israelis, perhaps under U.S. pressure, finally allowed him to do so. He had wanted to do so earlier this week, but they refused that request.

In the meantime, the Palestinians are generally welcoming President Bush's speech today, especially Yasser Arafat, who issued a statement through his chief negotiator and spokesman, Saeb Erakat. He read that to CNN earlier, saying that Arafat accepts everything that Bush said, everything unconditionally.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAEB ERAKAT, CHIEF PALESTINIAN NEGOTIATOR: President Arafat said that he welcomes Secretary Powell and he is willing to meet with him, and to put the mechanisms to implement all that was specified in President Bush's speech, including Resolution 1402, the Tenet understanding, the George Mitchell report, and meaningful negotiation that would lead to ending the Israeli occupation and to an establishment of a Palestinian state next to a state of Israel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Now there was a sort of a mixed reaction from Israel, from the foreign ministry, an embrace of what President Bush had said, and from the prime minister, Ariel Sharon, welcoming the visit of Powell but also bluntly pointing out that Israel plans to continue what they call Operation Defensive Shield until their objectives are met.

We spoke earlier with the deputy defense minister, who said that it was preconditioned on what Yasser Arafat did, as to when they would withdraw.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DALIA RABIN PELOSSOF, ISRAEL DEPUTY DEFENSE MINISTER: We've just met with General Zinni at the Ministry of Defense, and we understand that he's going to see Chairman Arafat tomorrow morning. We hope that he will come back with some kind of an answer from the chairman and we'll have to consider our next moves according to that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Now even before President Bush made that speech from the White House, the Israeli military operations continue. And now, just about all the major cities in the West Bank are under Israeli occupation.

Hebron was the latest one to see an incursion of Israeli tanks, armor and other troops, and there have been in some cases, in some cities such as Nablus, pitched battles as the Palestinians out-armed try to fend off the tanks with machine guns as well. Aaron.

BROWN: Christiane, if you know, did the Israeli government get any advance warning that the president was going to change both the substance and the tone of his policy today?

AMANPOUR: Well, we think they did. Certainly, we've heard that, from sources in the United States and from our reporters there who you've been talking to, also from sources here, that the government here did get advance notice of what the president was going to say, and perhaps as well, the White House got advance notice of what Prime Minister Sharon was going to say in return.

BROWN: Works both ways, Christiane, thank you, Christiane Amanpour in Jerusalem for us.

So much pain in all of this when you're in the Middle East. It comes from watching those places that seem to be in the middle of all this, places that have so much meaning to Jews and Christians and Muslims around the world, no more more so perhaps than Bethlehem. This view of it before the fighting, comes from satellite, no more than a dot in the sky. Residents of the Biblical Bethlehem might have taken it from a star.

They show the narrow streets where the Israeli tanks now patrol, the manger square, and the Church of the Nativity that Palestinian gunmen have taken over. What they don't show, of course, is the people on the ground. CNN's Ben Wedeman has that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WEDEMAN (voice over): A convoy of ambulances ventures into Bethlehem's old city, an ancient city that has become a battlefield.

Before the Palestinian medic is allowed past, soldiers check him for weapons, for explosives. The woman they picked up, ill not injured, was one of the lucky ones. Residents tell of others wounded in the fighting who bled to death in the streets, ambulances unable to reach them.

GRAHAM LEMAN, RED CROSS: It's very difficult to work. I'll make no excuses. It is difficult to work. I think you can see for yourselves the conditions that everybody has to work in. We, ourselves, have to work around that as best we can.

WEDEMAN: Easier said than done, people here say. All they can do is wait for their ordeal to end.

WEDEMAN (on camera): Here in the old city of Bethlehem, it's a scene of complete destruction. There are cars that have been run over, crushed by tanks, bullet holes in the walls, storefronts smashed out, and one interesting thing here, armored plating from an Israeli armored personnel carrier.

WEDEMAN (voice over): In this house, bullets smashed the windows. A family of ten is trying to get by on dwindling supplies, that and fear. "Yesterday the children were shivering with terror" says this woman. Nuns and workers prepare to deliver bread and flour to an orphanage, home to dozens of children. This was the last batch of bread these nuns can bake. They've run out of supply.

Near the Church of the Nativity, Israeli troops patrol warily. "Open the door" the soldier shouts. They have their own fears. The bomb is a canister of cooking gas rigged to explode, the soldiers in the streets, as insecure as the people in their homes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WEDEMAN (on camera): Aaron, the situation at the Church of the Nativity remains basically a standoff. It entered now into its third day. Yesterday, we tried to get close to that church, but the Israeli soldiers told us it's dangerous, which never really deterred us, but also that it's a closed military area and that we must vacate. So we never got a chance to find out firsthand what's going on there. Aaron.

BROWN: Try again tomorrow, Ben. Thank you, Ben Wedeman in Jerusalem and Bethlehem as well in his reporting day.

Geography and religion and history are perhaps linked more closely in the Holy Land than anywhere else in the world. Towns and villages only miles apart can seem worlds away from each other.

Bethlehem, where Ben Wedeman just was, is only a few miles, a few miles away from Jerusalem, and just a few miles in the other direction is Ramallah. If during the next few days, the U.S. representative, Anthony Zinni, is allowed into Ramallah, as we expect he will be to meet with Yasser Arafat, he will have to be let through Israeli checkpoints to get to Arafat's compound and this is a satellite image of that compound.

We're going to use these photographs a bit over the next few days. It helps us all understand proximity, how close everything is, and where things are happening in the streets. As NEWSNIGHT continues, we'll talk with the former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, and later a report on a new weapon to catch students who cheat. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Ehud Barak is the last Israeli leader to sit across a negotiating table from Yasser Arafat and try and make peace. He is the former leader of the Labor Party, a war hero and someone who joins us from time to time to offer Israeli reaction to unfolding events. We talked with Mr. Barak late this afternoon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Well the president of the United States made some news today. Let me get your reaction to that. He called on Israel to halt the incursions, stop daily humiliations of the Palestinians. How is that going to play in Israel? EHUD BARAK, FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: Well, I believe that we will do our best to help Secretary Powell to complete successfully his mission, but we know as a matter of fact that the real obstacle is Mr. Arafat. He tries to educate, so to speak, us and the whole world about making suicide bombing the new tool of diplomacy. We will never accept it.

And so, the president made a very important statement. In my judgment, it carries the same moral and strategic clarity that characterizes all leadership since 9/11, and I believe that, you know, he called for a Palestinian state that will not be a haven for terrorists, viable economically and otherwise, and for negotiation and for two states or two nations.

You know, we were around the table at Camp David, some 20 months ago, trying to achieve exactly that and Mr. Arafat refused even to negotiate it and deliberately turned to terror.

So, you know, we will try to help but since he broke all his commitments and never seriously tried to put an end to terror, we now have to arrest those terrorists and we now have to dismantle the labs where they prepare, with Mr. Arafat financing the explosives to blow up our restaurants, Bar Mitzvah (UNINTELLIGIBLE) or Passover ceremonies.

BROWN: Will Secretary Powell, merely by his presence and his title, Secretary of State, have more influence on both - well, on your side, on the Israeli side? You don't need to speak for the Palestinians here, than General Zinni has had?

BARAK: You know we highly respect Secretary Powell. I know him for more than 20 years, and I really think that he's a great leader. Of course, we highly respect him, but I believe that from the Israeli side, we will do - we were ready to help General Zinni work.

The problem is not on this side of the equation. We were left with no choice but to do what we are doing. We didn't like it, and basically the real obstacle is Arafat, and I hope that Secretary Powell has much more weight with Chairman Arafat than anyone else, and to the best of my judgment, Arafat will not move before.

It will not be just Secretary Powell, but also the foreign ministers of Great Britain, Germany, Spain, Italy, Netherlands or some other European, and of course, President Putin's representative.

I believe that only when Mr. Arafat will face a united, coherent front, telling him "Mr. Arafat, we look you in the eye and tell you it's the end of games, end of rhetoric. It's time for action" that he will alternatively contemplate for the first time moving to put an end to terror.

BROWN: Let me try this one. If the Secretary were to say to the Israeli government, "here's the idea. We want to tie a cease-fire directly to the resumption of political talks. Not two separate actions, one sentence in effect, would the Israeli government support that or would the Israeli government continue to say, first a cease- fire and then we'll talk about talking some more.

BARAK: It's semantic, believe me, Aaron, it's just semantic. Dealing with the guys that we are dealing with, it's not about semantics. It's about substance. The moment that Mr. Arafat would be ready to put an end to it here or his replacement, it would work. We were ready all along the years.

So somehow it's not with us. You know, I recommended to our government to strike at terror even harsher, just until not on the Palestinian people but just until even harsher than this. But at the same time, to make it clear that the door is open at any moment for resumption of negotiations without any precondition beyond the full absence of violence, based on the principles of Camp David.

And since we couldn't find a partner, I added another commendation to set immediately a fence that will separate ourselves, disengage ourselves from the Palestinians in a way that will make sure that we protect ourselves and reduce markedly the rate of suicide attacks into Israel.

We already have a fence around the Gaza Strip and practically there are no suicide attacks on Gaza Strip. So it's not with us. I believe that the moment we would have a character like President Sadat or King Hussein leading the Palestinian people, we would be already in a peace. This is the man who is in person an obstacle is Mr. Arafat. It's frustrating unfortunately, but that's the reality.

BROWN: Mr. Barak, it's always a treat to talk to you. We appreciate your time again this evening. Thank you, sir, very much.

BARAK: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak. We talked earlier today. Later on NEWSNIGHT, more on this alleged plot to overthrow the government in Afghanistan, but up next, we'll look at how the personalities and history, Yasser Arafat and Ariel Sharon, at the core of this situation in the Middle East. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Just a moment ago, we heard Ehud Barak say he regrets the Palestinians don't have a leader like Egypt's late President Sadat. If they did, he said, this conflict would have been over many years ago, and he is not alone in that sentiment.

His view is that Yasser Arafat is just a stubborn old warrior and not a statesman, is shared by many Israelis. Palestinians, it turns out, see Ariel Sharon in much the same way. In a moment, a conversation with two men who know these old enemies well; first, a bit about their history.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BROWN (voice over): They are two aging war horses, the most bitter of enemies for most of their lives in what may be their last showdown, their last battle for the causes that have consumed them.

HENRY SIEGMAN, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: It became personal because historical circumstances brought the two together into repeated confrontations.

BROWN: In 1956, Arafat founded Al Fatah, an underground terrorist organization, first ignored by the larger Arab nations, but his following on the streets was growing.

Ariel Sharon had enlisted in the resistance at 14, a man also with political ambition. He fought in the '48 war for independence and in every major war in Israel thereafter. But it was the historic war of 1967 where the two first encountered each other.

In '72, there were the Munich Games, Israeli athletes murdered by members of the terrorist group tied to Arafat. There were the hijackings of the 70s, all of which kept the Palestinian cause alive.

10 years later, a crossroads, as the Minister of Defense, Sharon orchestrated Israel's invasion of Lebanon, a military operation that killed hundreds of civilians, as Israeli forces sought to destroy PLO fighters in the country. Arafat would be sent into exile. And Sharon was blamed for not only failing to prevent a massacre of Palestinians in refugee camps outside the Beirut, but also for allowing Arafat to go free.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When he decided to go after Arafat and the PLO, and to destroy their base in Lebanon, and especially in Beirut, and he laid this siege on Arafat in Beirut, and his intention was, it was -- this was his great goal in life to kill a man, to do away with them. Thinking that by doing so, he would end the Israel's problem with the Palestinians.

It didn't work out quite that way because the international community intervened. And it was a defeat for Sharon.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you accept Israel, yes or no?

YASSER ARAFAT, PLO LEADER: Yes, we accept peace.

BROWN: By 1988, Arafat told the United Nations the PLO would recognize Israel as a sovereign state. As hard-liners came to power in Israel in '96, the peace process slowed considerably and Arafat's terror resumed.

It is fitting that this latest crisis, this last battle between the two men began when Sharon visited one of those spots in Jerusalem that is holy to both Jews and Muslims. The uprising began shortly thereafter. The Israeli peace movement crumbled. Sharon became the prime minister. And his old adversary, Arafat, was right next door in Ramallah, where he is confined by Sharon today.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: Now two gentleman who know those two gentlemen quite well. John Wallach has written a biography of Yasser Arafat. Mort Zuckerman has known Ariel Sharon for more than two decades, professionally, as a friend. Mr. Zuckerman, the owner of "U.S. News and World Report," "The New York Daily News." I'm talking fast because I want more time with both of them.

Nice to see you both. Do you think in some sense they are alike, these two guys?

JOHN WALLACH, ARAFAT BIOGRAPHER: Well, I think they are alike in the sense they want to destroy each other. I mean, they're absolutely bent on getting rid of the other.

BROWN: Yes.

WALLACH: I think that at least rendering them as Sharon has said so many times, irrelevant in the course of the history. Unfortunately, that's not been worked out because Arafat, you know, I remember, Aaron, the first time we -- my wife and I saw him when we wrote our book, he was watching cartoon, Tom and Jerry.

BROWN: Yes.

WALLACH: And he wouldn't -- he was transfixed on it. He wouldn't even acknowledge our presence there when we come to interview him some years ago. I think he really identifies with Jerry, with the mouse, constantly outwitting Tom the cat.

You know, he thrives on adversity. This kind of situation that he's in today, surrounded by Israeli troops, is exactly what he thrives on. The United States stepping in to tell the Israelis don't harm him, don't lay a finger on him. And he's able to continue to, I would say prey on the conscious of the world with the Palestinian cause.

BROWN: Mort, you've covered the region. You know the guys. Are these two men, I mean history for whatever reason has placed them in this moment. Are they capable of doing a peace deal?

MORT ZUCKERMAN, PUBLISHER, "U.S. NEW & WORLD REPORT": Well, you know, just to refer here to Sharon, you will recall that during the -- first Camp David agreements with Egypt, that there was, as a part of that, the obligation to remove an Israeli settlement in Sinai called Yemit (ph).

BROWN: Right.

ZUCKERMAN: The settlers were resisting. And the man who led the Israeli army to remove the settlers was none other than Ariel Sharon. And I would point to the negotiations with Jordan, when that negotiation got into real trouble, it was Sharon who jumped into the breach and was able to close a deal with the Jordanians, to bring about the peace treaty with Jordan.

So in both cases, you have somebody who is willing, where there is an real option of a real peace agreement, to do what he could to bring it about.

BROWN: You don't see him as -- you see him as more pragmatic person than maybe -- I don't want to say the caricature of him is, but in some sense, I think in some sense I think that's what it is.

ZUCKERMAN: Well, you know, I've interviewed military people all around the world. And the one thing that the successful ones are is pragmatic, otherwise they can't be an effective military man. And he, particularly in private when he's not sort of speaking to his public constituency, is an extremely pragmatic man and somebody, I think, who has been through every war that's Israel has fought since the founding of the state, and would love to be able to go out with major progress towards some kind of peace agreement.

BROWN: And would that be true, Mr. Arafat too, that he wants history to say about him, that he is the one that created the Palestinian state in that he is the one who ended the killing?

WALLACH: I think he definitely wants to go down in history as the George Washington of his people, who brought statehood to his people. Unfortunately, you know, he has used terror, as well as diplomacy to advance his goals, his purposes. And that will make it much more difficult now for anyone to believe in what he says.

However, I mean, I go back to the night that Sharon was elected. We were not with Arafat, but some friends were. And he said to them, "I do not exclude the possibility of making peace with this man."

So I think they're like two old prize fighters.

BROWN: Yes.

WALLACH: That they sort of look at each other warily, but understand the political reality that they are both in the position, and in unique position, historically, to deliver their own constituencies. There's nobody else on the Palestinian side who can do that. There probably is no one, with the exception of Netanyahu, but he's probably not as strong today in Israel as Sharon. So you have a historical circumstance.

BROWN: That's an interesting -- I talked to him the other day.

WALLACH: Yes.

BROWN: I tell you, he doesn't believe that Mr. Netanyahu doesn't believe that. He thinks he is by far and away, the most...

WALLACH: The problem with the point -- the problem is the Palestinian perception of Sharon. I think what Mort says is absolutely, historically accurate. The problem is that he has never put a meaningful peace plan on the table.

BROWN: Right.

WALLACH: He has said you've got to stop fighting before we can start talking. And to many Palestinians, who are tired of 40 years of occupation, who are -- they want to see something, the light at the end of the tunnel. As somebody said to me the other day, there's a light, but there's no tunnel.

BROWN: It seems like it sometimes. We're down to a minute or so. Go ahead.

ZUCKERMAN: And that is that Arafat, after all, did have the chance, when he was negotiating with Barak, who put this incredible offer on the table of effectively 100 percent of the West Bank with some land trades and the Arab neighborhood of east Jerusalem, and turned it down.

So this is the part that leaves everybody questioning whether or not he's serious about doing a Palestinian state as part of a two state solution. Or whether, as the Palestinian emblem portrays, you have one Palestinian state that includes all of Israel. And I think this is where he lost an enormous amount of credibility, because what happened was that he launched this campaign of violence for the last four months.

WALLACH: The question of whether he's capable of delivering is very important question. And I just want to...

BROWN: That's a great question. You've got five seconds to deal with it.

WALLACH: All right. I just want to go back to when Barak was in power. You had only four instances of terror in those two and a half years.

BROWN: Right.

WALLACH: Arafat sat effectively on Hamas, on Islamic Jihad. There was very little terror. So if he wants to do it, he can do it.

BROWN: Nice to meet you. Nice to see you again. Come back, both of you. We'll talk some more.

And NEWSNIGHT will continue in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Story from Afghanistan tonight. It's been said that the language of the Pashtuns, the Pashtuns are the largest ethnic group in Afghanistan, is the only language where the word for cousin is the same for enemy. That comes to mind when you look at a massive plot that's been uncovered against the leadership of the interim government and the leader of Afghanistan, Hamid Karzai.

It was launched, it is said, by a rival Pashtun and notoriously brutal warlord, well-known for his hatred of the United States. Another cautionary tale this, about how hard it will be to keep the factions together in the post-Taliban era.

Here again, CNN's Walter Rodgers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WALTER RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Afghanistan's interim leader Hamid Karzai appears to have escaped an assassination plot hatched by a hard-line Islamic group headed by renegade warlord Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. After arresting over 300 people, the interior minister said 160 are still being detained.

YNUS QANOONI, INTERIOR MINISTER: [translated] There were a series of attempts against a number of prominent Afghan individuals, including Chairman Karzai and the former king of Afghanistan.

RODGERS: The Afghan interior minister said the Islamic renegades were plotting terror, abduction and sabotage. The senior advisor to Chairman Karzai said Americans and international peacekeepers were also targeted.

GHANI AMATZAI, SENIOR ADVISER TO AFGHAN CHAIRMAN: We feel the effort was indeed -- not limited to the Afghans. There were plots directed against our foreign guests as well.

RODGERS: Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, an Afghan warlord is believed behind the plot. His men were the majority of those arrested and being questioned. He is believed to be hiding somewhere along the border between Iran and western Afghanistan.

He has a bloody reputation as a troublemaker in Afghan politics, and is known among Afghans as "the big evil." International peacekeepers have hurriedly tried to cobble together a palace guard that will be able to take over presidential protection, but international peacekeepers themselves have also targets of random violence in Kabul by unknown assailants.

JOHN MCCALL, MAJ. GEN. ISAF COMMANDER: We are identifying whether our lawless elements are operating in the city. We're patrolling vigorously against them. And they're being patrolled vigorously against them. We can expect to encounter them. And we can expect shooting incidents.

RODGERS: Serious doubts remain, however, as to whether the Afghans can protect their own. Though trained by the British, this major seemed a little skeptical about the new palace guards ability to protect chairman Karzai.

LEE DRAKELY, MAJOR, ISAF: We have soldiers who have never trained before, never picked up before.

RODGERS: Afghans say it was their own security forces which discovered the plot against Afghan government officials.

(on camera): The West has a huge investment in the current Afghan government succeeding. One diplomat told me, "God forbid anything happens to Karzai. His government is so fragile." Some here believe if the current Afghan government were toppled, Afghanistan would revert to a failed state status -- Aaron.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: Walter, thank you. Walt Rodgers in Afghanistan for us this evening.

And as NEWSNIGHT continues a little later on, virtually every man's dream, a really cool car. In my case, any car, but that's a totally different story. Up next, kids cheating and how they're getting caught. This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A story tonight about education that is not exactly encouraging. It's about cheating. No, it's not about the kids are cheating. That's not a surprise. More about the fact that so many kids are cheating, that some of them don't see it as a problem at all. Well, their teachers do, and their teachers are fighting back, as it were, by doing exactly what the cheaters are doing. They're going online.

Here's CNN's Kathy Slobogin.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATHY SLOBOGIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): To Alice Newhall, cheating is no big deal.

ALICE NEWHALL: Cheating is a short-cut. And it's a pretty efficient one in a lot of cases.

SLOBOGIN: Alice is a 17-year-old senior at George Mason High School in northern Virginia. She's typical of what a survey shows is a growing number of kids who see cheating as a way to survive high school.

Do you not have any moral outrage about cheating?

NEWHALL: Not really. It's just not the biggest deal in high school.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our secretary, Alice.

NEWHALL: You know, what's important is getting ahead. You know, the better grades you have, you know, the better school you get into, is -- you know, the better you're going to do in life. And if you've learn to cut corners to do that, you know, you're going to be saving yourself time and energy.

And in the real world, you know, that's what's going to be going on, is you know, the better you do, that's what shows. It's not, you know, how moral you were in getting there.

SLOBOGIN (on camera): High school cheating is rampant. A national survey of 4,500 students found that three-quarters of them engage in serious cheating. More than half have plagiarized work off the Internet. If you have a credit card and a modem, it's simple.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On disk, I just put it into the machine. SLOBOGIN (voice-over): Schools have begun using the kids' weapons against them. George Mason is one of thousands of high schools fighting web plagiarism with a new service called turnitin.com. Teachers submit students' papers to the company, which then searches the web for matching prose.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Between 24 and 48 hours, a report will come back and it's color-coded.

SLOBOGIN: This paper is code red, 97 percent plagiarized. Turnitin says about a third of the papers submitted have some sort of plagiarism.

DONALD MCCABE, RUTGERS UNIVERSITY: Students today find it so much easier to rationalize their cheating.

SLOBOGIN: Donald Mccabe, whose survey of high school students found that 50 percent don't even consider Internet plagiarism cheating, says students feel driven by the tremendous pressure to excel and compete for colleges.

MCCABE: For one reason or another, they convince themselves that, you know, a tenth of a point on their GPA is going make a dramatic difference in their futures. And they feel compelled to cheat.

SLOBOGIN: Of course, not all students cheat. Mike Denny, also a senior at George Mason, thinks it's simply wrong.

Do you think honor is lacking in the average high school student?

MIKE DENNY, HIGH SCHOOL SENIOR: I think honor's lacking in a large part of society. And I think it's, you often see the liars and the people who take the easy way get much higher in life than, you know, your average honest Joe on the street.

SLOBOGIN: Mike also blames a high school culture where grades and test scores are more important than integrity.

DENNY: By now, many of us are so jaded, we feel like our whole life has just been taught for one test. It's pretty sad that things such as who you are, and standing by your word and what not, that's something that we haven't really been taught.

SLOBOGIN: Maybe American high schools are teaching their students the wrong lesson.

Kathy Slobogin, CNN, Falls Church, Virginia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Up next on NEWSNIGHT, what's a guy to do? So many cars, so little time. We're going to the auto show in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: You know, a lot of news programs, at least the ones based here in New York, have been reporting on the New York Auto Show, which is believe it or not, taking place in New York this week. But frankly, all of the reporting seems a bit generic and boring to us. And that's because nobody else has Dwight. Yes, it's time for Dwight. That's Dwight as in Dwight Collins, who's the senior tape playback operator here at the CNN New York broadcast center. And you see, Dwight loves cars. So Dwight, press the play button and take us to the auto show.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DWIGHT: Going to the show.

We're here today at the 2002 car show, to check out the new and latest vehicles, some concept cars. Some exotic cars, regular every day cars. Here to have some fun. I love cars. That's my thing. So let's do it, it. One of the cars of my dreams. He's going to get the key and open it up. I've been coming to the car shows for I don't know how long. And you just made a dream come true.

Great steering wheel.

Checking out the concept cars like this Chevy SSR.

Oh yes, these tires are blue. I don't know the purpose behind that. But they are blue. I wouldn't think about getting into this. All right, fellows, what are we looking at here? How are you doing? It's the GT-40. This car used to just -- just -- this car is like the fastest car in Lemons. This car won like four years in a row. This car was so nasty and Ford is now remaking it. And it's actually going to be a street production car.

I'm from CNN. Is there any chance of me getting in that? I love my job.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You must be Jeremy Packsman. You know, he's the English guy that does all the reports on cars.

DWIGHT: Oh, is that who I remind you of?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

DWIGHT: Is he a good looking guy?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is.

DWIGHT: Oh, OK then.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just like you.

DWIGHT: Oh, yes, then I'm happy then.

Look at what's over my shoulder. That little thing called a mini, they revamped it. So let's go take a look at it and see if I could get in one. Ha, ha, ha, ha. Let's see how many people we can get in this little thing they call the mini. That's four.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Four.

DWIGHT: Any women?

This is great. How are you doing? Enjoying the show? Good-bye, everybody. So long. Hope you enjoyed. That's my day at the car show.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And there's Dwight and it's over, OK. Go roll the tape, Dwight, thank you. Nicely done.

Finally tonight, ask Dwight, an important service from the dedicated staff here at NEWSNIGHT. And we are.

No, we're not about to remind you to reset your clocks back this weekend, though this does have a time element to it, but it's far more serious. Please, take a good hard look at this photo. This is asteroid 1950 D.A.. And it could have your name on it.

Scientists, who'd lost track of this six-tenths of a mile long piece of rock for 50 years, say it could smash into the Earth in 877 years and 11 months. So to make sure you're prepared for the possibility, though scientist acknowledge the odds are about 300 to 1 against it, we have prepared the first ever NEWSNIGHT special countdown clock. And from time to time, 877 years, from time to time, we'll check on it to make sure that we're OK.

And the reason we do this is because as our friend and colleague as CBS News, Dan Rather says, danger is our business. See you tomorrow. Goodnight.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com