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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Bush Expresses Disappointment With Arafat; Oprah Puts an End to Book Club
Aired April 05, 2002 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again. I said in the e- mail that we send out each day, my tongue planted firmly in cheek today, would you mind if we did only four programs a week?
We all looked and seemed spent by the week's events in the Middle East. I also said, imagine what it must be like to live through it, really live through it, not like a reporter lives through it going back to a nice hotel each night, ordering a little room service, maybe a drink in the bar and unwind. Not that.
Imagine what it's like to be in Ramallah tonight, not just the politics, but just trying to live through it. And imagine what it must be like to live in Tel Aviv. Yes, there are no tanks keeping you indoors, but there is also no certainty that if you walk outdoors, if you get on a bus or go to a restaurant or go to Sabbath services with friends, you won't get blown apart by some 20-year-old kid who's decided his life is so miserable or his grieving so great that terror, suicide murder, is the best course of action.
And what must make it all the more difficult is that there is no escape from it. The whole area of battle, both sides, is so small and for some reason, and I know this isn't especially rational, it all seems worse or harder because it's such an important and wondrous place for so many people in the world.
So imagine what it must be like, on one side a people with no real home, no place, people who have been used by their Arab brothers and too often abused by the Israelis, and imagine the other side, the children of the Holocaust, the memories of a world that didn't care still fresh enough, always surrounded by their enemies. It says remarkable things about human resilience that any of them, on any side, have an ounce of sanity or humanity left.
We begin the whip tonight in Jerusalem. CNN's Bill Hemmer is there. Bill the headline from you please.
BILL HEMMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Aaron, Anthony Zinni finally got his meeting today with Yasser Arafat. Colin Powell will be in the region on Monday, all this after a day on Friday, one of the bloodiest days yet in this current conflict, that and more coming up here -- Aaron.
BROWN: Bill, thank you, on to Michael Holmes who's in Ramallah, an intriguing day there to say the least, Michael the headline.
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, Aaron, the media learned what a stun grenade feels like. The curfew for Ramallah residents lifted, oh so briefly, and now in the pre-dawn light, we can't open the window behind us because the tanks are firing -- Aaron.
BROWN: Michael. Pressure on the Palestinians coming out of the White House today. Kelly Wallace is in Crawford, Texas traveling with the President. Kelly, a headline from you please.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, President Bush gives a Texas style welcome to the British Prime Minister before the two leaders get down to serious business discussing the events in the Middle East, and as you said, Mr. Bush making it clear his patience is wearing thin when it comes to the Palestinian leader.
BROWN: Kelly, thank you, back to you and the rest of you shortly. Not all heavy stuff tonight. It is Friday after all, so we'll talk a little baseball. It's hard for me to imagine it's taken us to the end of the opening week of the season to get to this but such is the way. We'll take a look at the sad state of affairs. The Montreal Expos, as one fan said, this team is done like dinner. A fan said that. Well, they're not quite done but things don't look very good either.
Also tonight, a story about Oprah definitely a first of us, but real news here. Oprah said the Book-of-the-Month club is no more. This is a stunning blow in the publishing world. We'll talk to an author who became a best seller thanks to Oprah and to a publisher too, and I am determined to get through this tease without playing off any more "Star Wars" cliches. Let's just say the story is about memorabilia and the super fans who, no matter what, can not get enough, all of that in the hour ahead.
We begin in the Middle East with the peace efforts gearing up and the war still going on. Secretary of State Powell will arrive in the region next week. It seems pretty clear the fighting is not going to stop before then. Israel today expanded military operations. Hamas today promised still more bombings, no matter what Secretary Powell has to say.
The big news of the day was that the Israeli government did allow the U.S. Envoy General Anthony Zinni into Ramallah, where he finally met with Yasser Arafat. Those are the headlines. For more on the background, we go back to Jerusalem and CNN's Bill Hemmer. Bill, good evening.
HEMMER: Aaron, thank you and good morning from Jerusalem. The U.S. had requested this meeting about five days ago. On Friday, it finally got it. Anthony Zinni went to that compound in Ramallah, what's left of it anyway, had about a 90-minute meeting with the Palestinian leader. Aides inside to the Palestinian leader said at times that meeting was described as difficult. Others say, though, Yasser Arafat once again said he was committed to a cease-fire. Also got word that Zinni brokered some sort of deal between top Palestinian leaders to meet in Jerusalem, of all places, to talk about how to get out of the current crisis. Later, the Palestinians said the Israelis blocked that meeting. Whatever the case, whatever the truth, the fighting does continue and it continued in a tense way on Friday.
The Palestinians say they lost 25 on Friday alone and Israel says it struck back hard at leaders of Hamas. They say the suspected mastermind of that suicide bombing in Netanya that began ten days ago, again at the beginning of Passover, Wednesday a week ago, killing 26 Israelis.
They identified the member of Hamas as Keiz Adwan (ph). They say they cornered him in a West Bank town of Tunis, inside of a home there with five others. On the outside, the Israelis opened up fire. They say all six were killed inside. Hamas indeed confirms that as well.
And again, Aaron, one of the major headlines out of this week and this day for that matter, Colin Powell expected to arrive in the region on Monday, but it's a wide open question right now whether he'll be able to forge any sort of breakthrough in the current climate -- Aaron.
BROWN: Were they successful or not? We're a long way from there. Do we have any idea what he's going to do when he gets there, who he will talk to, when these meetings will begin, whether there is a plan, an agenda, any of this?
HEMMER: The White House says at this point they're still putting a lot of that schedule together, but specifically, the White House was asked today whether or not Colin Powell would meet with Yasser Arafat. At this point, it is our understanding that there is no meeting scheduled.
However, Ari Fleischer earlier today said he wants to make sure that Colin Powell's schedule maintains maximum flexibility in the words of the White House spokesman. Again, it is always possible, but at this point, no planned meeting with Powell and Arafat, and the rest of the schedule seems to be working out throughout the weekend as well -- Aaron.
BROWN: Thank you, Bill. Bill Hemmer in Jerusalem for us this evening. In Bethlehem tonight, there is no sign to an end of a standoff at the Church of the Nativity. Because much of the city is off limits to the media, it is hard to say with absolute certainty where things stand right now. We do know hundreds of Israeli troops spent another day in the city's ancient and winding streets, looking for Palestinian fighters.
We also know several hundred of those fighters remain holed up in the church. It is less clear tonight what precisely is going on inside. Have Palestinians taken hostages? Has the church been damaged? It says so much that in one of Christianity's most sacred places, Bethlehem, Jews and Muslims continue their standoff. Inside the Church of the Nativity, more than 200 Palestinians and dozens of religious leaders were caught in the middle after fighters engaged in a battle with Israeli troops and then dashed into the church as a safe haven.
AZIZ, INSIDE THE CHURCH OF NATIVITY: We have here civilians and we are only lying on the floor to protect ourselves from the civilian shooting.
BROWN: He goes by Aziz, claiming to be a Palestinian pharmacist caught inside. Time, he says, is running out.
AZIZ: We are here about four days without any treatment, without any food, without any medicine, although we have (UNINTELLIGIBLE) one with at least some case and a serious case.
BROWN: Outside, there is little activity in Manger Square, journalists and civilians prohibited from being in the area. The silence is shaken only by Israeli soldiers, who in their fourth day, keep a constant watch, hunting for gunmen and suspected terrorists in the city, offering those on the inside only one option, surrender.
That was until today. Without warning, four Franciscan priests suddenly emerged from the damaged basilica, two apparently for health reasons, welcomed with fruit and water, the Israeli army documenting their departure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Palestinians they have guns? Yes, many guns?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, only one gun. I think. You know, I did not see anyone. They are right now, holder of innocents. The Palestinians they own this church now, this church and the house.
BROWN: In Rome, reaction to the priest's exit was swift.
REV. GIACOMO BINI, SPOKESMAN, FRANCISCAN CHURCH: The situation by Israeli is grave situation because the 40 brothers living inside with the 200 Palestinians with their arms, it is a situation very tense and we have four sisters together with them, and they share what they had as food with the people inside. But now they don't have food. They are tired psychologically and physically.
BROWN: But in this moment on this issue, Rome was content to blame the Israelis for the ongoing standoff.
BINI: We asked to push to dialog with Sharon to stop and to start a dialog because without stopping the battle, the arms, it's impossible to begin a dialog.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (on camera): And just to emphasize the person you just heard from is a spokesman of the Franciscans, not of the Vatican in both cases there in Rome obviously. Sometime next week, Secretary of State Powell will arrive in the Middle East. Who he will meet with, what he will propose, whether there are any new ideas in this old conflict we can not say tonight.
Other questions to ask, however, will the Israelis pull back their troops as a gesture to the Secretary of State and will Yasser Arafat clearly denounce terror in the language of his people, a gesture of his own? Will it succeed or will it fail, an important moment for the administration that would have preferred to avoid this messy business but can't.
CNN's Kelly Wallace is covering the administration side of the story. She's in Crawford, Texas where the President is spending the weekend, along with the British Prime Minister. Kelly, good evening to you.
WALLACE: Good evening to you, Aaron. An important moment indeed for the Bush Administration and you can count on Mr. Bush and his guest, British Prime Minister Tony Blair, discussing all those issues you mentioned.
The Prime Minister, in fact, arriving at the ranch a couple of hours ago, you could say Mr. Bush gave him, well, a Texas-style welcome. The President was dressed in blue jeans and cowboy boots. You can't see it but Mr. Bush pulled up in a white pickup truck. There it is. And the President then gets in that pickup truck and drives away with the Prime Minister.
The Prime Minister, only the second world leader to get this highly coveted invitation to come to the Bush ranch. This visit really was to focus on the War against Terror and Iraq but again, Aaron, because of the events on the ground, the two men to discuss the situation in the Middle East, to discuss the Israeli military offensive which continues, even after President Bush on Thursday called for a halt and an Israeli withdrawal from Palestinian areas.
There is no criticism coming from the Bush White House today. Instead, the message was the President expects results, and expects them as soon as possible. And then picking up, Aaron, on what you and Bill were discussing whether Secretary Powell will meet with Yasser Arafat or not.
The administration appears to be leaving this an open question, in a way to put more pressure on the Palestinian leader. Just listen to how Mr. Bush responded, when a British journalist asked him on Thursday if Secretary Powell would be meeting with the Palestinian leader.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have no idea yet. I'll tell you what he is going to do. He's going to go work with leadership to bring people together. My worry is, is that Yasser Arafat can't perform. He's been given plenty of opportunities.
TREVOR MCDONALD: Has he forfeited your trust?
BUSH: He certainly hasn't earned it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: And, Aaron, another interesting thing Mr. Bush said in that interview. He said that Mr. Arafat has not led, and he also said that other leaders in the region are leading. In a strategy that is developing, the Bush Administration is going to have Secretary Powell go to the region, meet with the leaders of Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia. One goal, having them put pressure on Mr. Arafat, but also having them engage with other leaders within the Palestinian Authority. The message is, if Mr. Arafat is not going to deliver for the Palestinian people, well maybe there is another leader who will -- Aaron.
BROWN: Well, this is a very interesting game. I use that term very gently, that the administration is playing here. We'll let that one play out. Let me ask you about something else the President said in that interview. As I read it, he seemed to take a very clear unambiguous shot at former President Clinton over the former President's handling of the Middle East in words that are not in tone much different than his spokesman used a few weeks back, only to have them repudiated.
WALLACE: Exactly, and this came at the very, very end of what was somewhat of a contentious interview between Mr. Bush and his interviewer. The President, as you said, seemed to imply that President Clinton pulling the parties together for the Camp David talks in the summer of 2000, the President in that interview saying nothing happened, and he said: "As a result, we had a significant intifada in the area." The President going on to say that the only time that it's appropriate for a U.S. President to call a summit is when it looks like something can get done.
And as you said, Aaron, it is almost exactly what Ari Fleischer, the Bush spokesman said weeks ago when he said Mr. Clinton "trying to shoot the moon," in essence trying to bring the parties together when they weren't ready to make a deal led to the violence. Fleischer went ahead and apologized. Not clear if we'll get an apology from Mr. Bush, back to you.
BROWN: Kelly, thank you. It's very rare for presidents to criticize former presidents, interesting development out there in Crawford today. Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, a close-up view of just how dangerous it is to cover the events in the Middle East. We'll take a look also - these are two separate stories, Aaron, come on. We'll take a look also at who's winning the public relations war. This is NEWSNIGHT on Friday.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Perhaps more than most programs, we tend to avoid stories about the perils of reporting the story, any story. For us, nothing is quite as uncomfortable as when we become the news. It's been hard to avoid that today. There were confrontations between reporters and the Israel Defense Forces in the West Bank. One of them involved one of our correspondents in Ramallah. These confrontations pale compared to what people on both sides of this war are living with all the time, but they do impede our ability to tell the story and to show the story, which may or may not be their intent but is nevertheless a fact.
With that in mind, we go on to the place where this confrontation took place. This is a satellite image of the Yasser Arafat compound in Ramallah, where Anthony Zinni visited around midday today; more now on all of this from our correspondent, Michael Holmes.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HOLMES (voice over): All was quiet at the compound, about 25 journalists standing, waiting, until two Israeli army jeeps stopped about 100 meters away, an unmarked blue Mercedes behind them. A tank swung its turret towards us. Then without warning, the jeeps accelerated towards the media and their vehicles, some of the journalists present having to scramble out of the way.
It was unclear what the soldiers wanted. A couple of journalists saw the soldiers wave the media away. The vast majority heard or saw nothing before the first stun grenade was thrown. It wasn't the last. As a confused media ran for cover more grenades perhaps half a dozen or more. If it had been unclear what the soldiers wanted us to do, by now it was very clear. CNN's vehicle rammed by one of the jeeps, despite the fact it was blocked in by another media vehicle and unable to move.
As the media convoy struggled to reverse away from the compound, an Israeli soldier took aim and fired a batten (ph) round, a large plastic projectile that left a chip in our windshield. As we continued to attempt to leave the area, a jeep again tried to ram us and then another shot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That shattered the windshield, that shot, by the way.
HOLMES: Two rubber coated steel bullets hit our rear window, leaving cracks stuck without penetrating the reinforced glass.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HOLMES (on camera): Aaron, as you said this pales in comparison to what ordinary Palestinians are going through here in Ramallah, but as you pointed out, it's an example of how difficult it is to report on exactly what is going on on the ground here. Aaron.
BROWN: Everybody all right, Michael?
HOLMES: Everybody's fine, Aaron, yes. Those stun grenades, they do what their name suggests. They give you a nice bang and a ringing in the ears, but they're not designed to explode or to harm. You could call it a non-lethal deterrent.
The curious thing at the time though was that everyone was literally, as you know we do, the motto sometimes in this job is hurry up and wait, and that's precisely what was happening. We had got to the compound very cautiously. We were standing around and waiting. Everybody afterwards seemed to agree that, had they asked, we would have left -- Aaron.
BROWN: Michael, be safe out there, thank you. Michael Holmes tonight. There are all sorts of battles going on in the Middle East and one of them is a battle for world opinion. Both sides, in our view, are quite skilled at this kind of P.R. warfare. We've wanted for some days to talk about the power of the images coming out of the area and how they might impact policy.
We decided today was the right day, after reading a piece in the New York Post, which took CNN to task. I got to say this the Post often takes CNN to task. That is part of the competitive game that is going on these days, but rather than bring in someone to tell us how wonderful we are and how well we do, we thought we'd try this instead, and we are genuinely pleased to have writer Jonathan Foreman with us tonight. Nice to see you.
JONATHAN FOREMAN, "NEW YORK POST": Thank you.
BROWN: I wanted to spend a moment on the article. You make the argument that too much attention is being paid to what's going on in the Middle East.
FOREMAN: Well, I think that's right to the extent that there are bigger flashpoints in the world that capture the imagination less, places that are much more dangerous. I mean, look for example at Kashmir. I mean there could be a nuclear war between India and Pakistan, I mean and people tend to forget that there are more journalists per square foot in Israel and Palestine than anywhere else in the world.
BROWN: But is there a place where, again I don't want to belabor this point, I'll tell you I disagree with. I don't want to belabor it. Is there a place where there is the same confluence of American interest, economic and political American interests and the possibility of a broader war throughout the Middle East, or throughout any region in the world? Isn't that what makes it both important and news worthy?
FOREMAN: I'm not sure there is. I'm not sure there really is a bigger flashpoint in other places. I mean if you talk about American political interests being so important there, but most of the coverage doesn't deal with those interests. It has nothing to do with politics, and I'm not even sure there is that much likelihood of a greater war breaking out.
I mean we talk about that all the time. We say, "oh well this could spread to other Arab countries." There's no actual sign of those Arab countries starting to make a real - have a real war with Israel, and the use of the term war constantly seems to me an exaggeration of what's really going on.
BROWN: Well, who started it? I mean literally, the person who used the term war honestly, and I know you're with me on this, was Ariel Sharon a week ago.
FOREMAN: Absolutely.
BROWN: So it's his word.
FOREMAN: Yes, I mean.
BROWN: OK.
FOREMAN: Yes.
BROWN: Let me move on from this, can we?
FOREMAN: OK.
BROWN: Because one of the reasons I wanted to have you on the program is you also write about film, and part of what's going on here, I think, is that there is a power to the images.
FOREMAN: Absolutely. I mean and one of the problems, I think, in terms of the coverage is that pictures of tanks rolling into a town are dramatic in a way that the aftermath of a suicide bombing is not. I mean what is a picture, pictures of a suicide bombing, it's ambulances, people running around the streets yelling. There's nothing that's visceral there, partly because you and other networks, and this is not a, you know -
BROWN: I'm through with this guy.
FOREMAN: -- don't show the grisly, I mean you don't show severed legs and viscera.
BROWN: Of course.
FOREMAN: And that makes an enormous difference so one of these things then seems far more real and dramatic than the other, and that changes the way people perceive it.
BROWN: You made the argument in the piece, I think in the piece or at least when we talked to you earlier today, that you believe the Palestinians are winning this P.R. war.
FOREMAN: In a sense.
BROWN: OK. If that were so, wouldn't we see in American public opinion, for example, some kind of shifting. I think you can make the argument the reverse is true.
FOREMAN: Oh, I don't think they're winning the P.R. war in that sense. I don't think the media actually has the power in this to shift American opinion that easily. I mean people are quite resistant to some of the messages they get in the mass media and that's to their credit. They're winning the media war in the sense that the courage that they get is distorted in their favor. I mean and I could even point to, even say this program right now.
BROWN: Sure.
FOREMAN: You just covered the stun grenades that were thrown at those journalists. Well, on Monday when the 11 supposed collaborators were shot by Palestinian gunmen, world history filmed it and they had their film confiscated by Palestinian gunmen and the film - and the videotapes and the film was destroyed and they were threatened with death. That story hasn't even been covered by this network.
BROWN: That's important.
FOREMAN: I mean that's a huge - it doesn't get the same kind of coverage as, you know, where are the interviews with those (UNINTELLIGIBLE) cameramen who had their lives threatened. I mean stun grenades I'm sure was an unpleasant experience. Those soldiers were certainly very rude and unpleasant, but none of those journalists were really in any danger. That was a little flash grenade.
BROWN: I hope they weren't in danger. They're our guys and I hope they're OK.
FOREMAN: Absolutely.
BROWN: Right.
FOREMAN: And I would agree with you but it didn't look like it from those images though.
BROWN: No.
FOREMAN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BROWN: Yes. Why is it then, we've got about half a minute, that by and large if you asked 100 people in this country is coverage bias one way or another in the Middle East, they'd say, well of course it is. American media always favors Israel.
FOREMAN: I don't think people would say that and I think -
BROWN: Really?
FOREMAN: No, I don't. I mean I think people remember, people don't trust the media in this country, lots of people. If they don't -
BROWN: As opposed to other countries.
FOREMAN: As opposed to other countries, no it's true all over the place and they're right not to because we in the media, you know, we do smart things to make them more dramatic or because we have another agenda, and they remember and there have been scandals. I mean just look at the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) scandal. I mean these things it makes people think twice. They're not sure and I mean people, I don't know, they do make up their own minds and it's just as well.
BROWN: Nice to meet you.
FOREMAN: My pleasure.
BROWN: Enjoyed it. I hope you feel well treated. I assume you do.
FOREMAN: No, absolutely.
BROWN: Thank you very much. Later on NEWSNIGHT we'll talk baseball. Man that is so much safer than this, I can't even begin to tell you. Up next a story that rocked the publishing industry, this is a fascinating tale about how Oprah made and perhaps will damage the publishing business. We're right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: There was a chill wind that swept through the publishing world today and it came directly from Chicago. We're talking about Oprah who today announced that she was cutting back on her book club recommendations. No more book of the month because she said she's having a hard time finding books that she can support or at least finding enough of them.
It'd be hard to exaggerate just how valuable Oprah's stamp has been. It's been called publishing's version of winning the lottery.
In a minute talk we'll talk with one of those authors who, so to speak, won the lottery and a publisher who is feeling a bit blue about all of this. First a little background from our Beth Nissen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Oprah made the announcement on her talk show.
OPRAH WINFREY, MEDIA CELEBRITY: I just want to say that this is the end of the book club as we know it. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. From now on when I come across something I feel absolutely compelled to share, I will do that, but it will not be every month. The truth is it has just become harder and harder for me to find books on a monthly basis that I really am passionate about.
NISSEN: The announcement stunned publishers who have profited and novelists who have coveted Oprah's Midas touch endorsement.
What does it mean for a book to an Oprah pick?
MARK GLEASON, PUBLISHER BOOK MAGAZINE: Well it -- first and foremost it means automatic best seller status. It means books that might get a print run of 100,000 copies or less suddenly are getting a 700,000 or 800,000 automatic print run.
NISSEN: A classic example, "Song of Solomon" by Tony Morrison. The year Morrison won the Nobel Prize for literature, the novel sold about 100,000 copies. When Oprah made it her book club pick, it sold more than 800,000 copies in just a few months.
GLEASON: What Oprah's done is she's opened up the market for the potential to sell a million copies to authors who didn't have that chance before.
NISSEN: First time novelist, like Jacquelyn Matched, literary novelist including Barbara Kingsolver (ph), Isabelle Yelende (ph), Andre Dubus III (ph), 46 books in six years.
WINFREY: Wasn't it something?
GLEASON: Oprah came in and reinforced for publishers the message that there's a large market out there for quality literature.
WINFREY: So I don't know when the next book will be. It might be next fall or it could be next year.
NISSEN: Oprah may yet find new books to recommend. There are about 100,000 books published each year in the United States alone.
Beth Nissen CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Joining us tonight one of the authors who has reaped the benefits of Oprah's love of books. Jacquelyn Mitchard, is the author of "Deep End of the Ocean". She is in Madison, Wisconsin tonight where she lives.
Also joining us, David Rosenthal, publisher and Executive Vice President of Simon Schuster. Nice to have you both with us.
Jacquelyn ...
JACQUELYN MITCHARD, "DEEP END OF THE OCEAN": Thank you.
BROWN: You were the first. Are you -- are you feeling blue about all of this tonight?
MITCHARD: I can't say that I am really. I think that Oprah has a valid point in saying that in the world of writing as it is today, it is hard to find a book on a monthly basis that is compelling enough to warrant millions of people reading it and hundreds of thousands of people buying it. And I must say it's a bitter sweet experience for me having been the first...
BROWN: Yes.
MITCHARD: ... of the Oprah authors, but it also makes it something that is a brief shining moment, if you will. And not something that people can ever take for granted. So I suppose that it's -- she knew what she was doing when she did it.
BROWN: And just before I turn to David who is slashing his wrists next to me, just tell me how much difference it seemed to make with your book?
MITCHARD: Well, you know, because it was the first ...
BROWN: Yes.
MITCHARD: ... no one, no one could -- my publisher said at the time at least if there's never a second Oprah Winfrey book, you'll always have been the first. So they thought the nation would get up as one and turn the channel off. But no one -- people underestimated her producers and even Miss Winfrey herself ...
BROWN: Yes.
MITCHARD: ... underestimated the reading public's hunger and thirst to gossip about books and that's what books are for, to gossip about, and she opened whole sections of the book store, whole sections of the library to people who otherwise maybe hadn't read a book since they were in high school ...
BROWN: What a great way ...
MITCHARD: ... and it was a tremendous run.
BROWN: Yes, what a great ...
MITCHARD: ... and a ...
BROWN: ... way to put it too.
MITCHARD: A wonderful and great - a great service.
BROWN: Let me turn to David. I assume your tongue was sort of planted in cheek when you said this is the end of civilization as we know it.
DAVID ROSENTHAL, PUBLISHER, EXECUTIVE VP, SIMON AND SCHUSTER: Well pretty deeply actually ...
BROWN: Yes.
ROSENTHAL: ... in my cheek.
BROWN: What was it or what is it about Oprah? It can't be just that she's popular and well known. It's more than that, that made her extraordinary, gave her this extraordinary power with books of all things.
ROSENTHAL: Well first of all, she was choosing good books.
BROWN: Yes.
ROSENTHAL: She has great credibility with her viewers on this subject and on almost every subject. When Oprah does something, people listen; people believe her. And I think when she wanted to do a book, it gave it that seal of approval, gave a sense this is something you shouldn't be scared of. I mean in some ways she's done more, not only for literacy in this country, but for the spread of good literature in America more than anyone has done in this country and certainly my time. BROWN: I wonder, there's probably some knowledgeable person who knows the answer to this, how many book clubs, particularly women's book clubs have started since she began this experience.
ROSENTHAL: I don't know the number there ...
BROWN: Yes.
ROSENTHAL: ... but it has become the popular thing to do.
BROWN: Yes.
ROSENTHAL: It's been a way of forming community. People have formed communities around books, and she is the one who's created that for everybody.
BROWN: And do you -- as a guy who publishes books, do you agree with her that it is hard to find enough good books?
ROSENTHAL: No, that I actually have to disagree with. I think there are tons of good books out there. I think there are books that every month go wanting for readers, go desperately wanting for readers and Oprah has been great in bringing lots of those books to readers, but I think I'd have to disagree and say that it's not for a want of books, but obviously the effort she puts into doing all of those books -- building the shows around them, doing the whole process with it.
That has obviously been difficult, as she said. But there is no possibility anybody who goes into a big book store or their local small book store, knows there's a lot of stuff out there that they can find that will be attractive to them.
BROWN: Before I go back to Jacquelyn for a second, women buy more books than men?
(CROSSTALK)
ROSENTHAL: Yes ...
(CROSSTALK)
ROSENTHAL: Women definitely.
BROWN: Have they long - is that long been true?
ROSENTHAL: I don't know about the early Bible sales, but probably in modern publishing that's been the case.
BROWN: OK. You get a good line, you use it. I'm with you on that. I do the same thing.
Jacquelyn, do you expect that this will impact the way your books are marketed from now on? You don't have that to fall back on.
MITCHARD: No, I never believed that writers should and I think it was starting to happen write to the idea of being chosen by as an Oprah book.
BROWN: Yes.
MITCHARD: And I've always believed that writers should write the best story that they can and then let the public receive it however they may, and let the chips fall where they may. And certainly it's not going to change the way that I write. And you know it may even have a wonderful upside in that when she does choose a book to give that kind of exposure to, it'll generate all the excitement that it did at the beginning ...
BROWN: You are a person who sees ...
MITCHARD: ... instead of - instead of ...
BROWN: You see the glass as half full.
MITCHARD: ...something that's expected.
BROWN: Yes. You see the glass half full.
MITCHARD: I guess I do.
BROWN: Yes.
MITCHARD: I guess I do. I feel -- just feel very fortunate to have been part of that sorority and fraternity and wish more people could have experienced it. But I think that the books that she chooses from now on will have to be top notch.
BROWN: You know I always thought that it was the interview that we did on "GOOD MORNING America" back that made you the big hit that you are, but now I find out that's not true. Thank you.
MITCHARD: Well, I'm sure it had to be part of it.
BROWN: I'm - yes, got to be. It's nice to see you again truly.
MITCHARD: You too.
BROWN: I enjoyed that and I enjoyed this. It's nice to meet you too. You'll get over this.
ROSENTHAL: I somehow will, but I think there's now a great opportunity for somebody else to start a book club and book segment maybe on CNN. The door is open. This could be you.
BROWN: It worked for her, didn't it?
ROSENTHAL: It sure did. Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you. Nice to meet you.
(CROSSTALK) BROWN: Come back.
Later on NEWSNIGHT, they're your usual museum crowd, as you will see. It's one of those "Star Wars" things coming up, but first we're going to talk about baseball. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Last night on "Letterman" stage manager Biff Henderson (ph) had a report from spring training, which by the way is over, where he had a question from one of the New York Yankees. What would you rather do, play for the Montreal Expos or get locked up in Camp X- Ray. Locked up said the player without missing a beat. Such is the state of the Expos and such is the state of baseball, a great, wonderful sport where it's unfortunately hard to tell sometimes who is greedier the players or the owners.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
If baseball allowed for ties we'd stop right now. But it doesn't. So we'll take a look at the plot of the Expos.
This elegant city on the banks of the St. Lawrence River has always been a sports town, as long as the sport was hockey and the team was the Canadians. Baseball's Montreal Expos have always been far mind and this year it looks as though it is time to say adieu forever.
MICHAEL FARBER, "SPORTS ILLUSTRATED": It is a miss. No one wants to see what's going to go on in Montreal this season. They drew 35,000 or close to it for the first game. They drew 35 for the second game. I'm exaggerating of course, but that's the kind of season you're going to have.
BROWN: In their 34-year history, the Expos have mostly drawn crowds like this, about 4500 fans rattling around in a ballpark that can hold nine times that number. It is terrific for those who do show up.
STEPHEN FULLER, PLATTSBURGH, N.Y.: I just walked in and I picked up a front row seat. I mean I'm sitting right off, looking on the grass and getting signatures. It's great. It's great. It's the best thing going.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's got five baseballs he's (UNINTELLIGIBLE) today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) they gave me (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BROWN: And it is terrible if you're a major league team trying to survive.
FARBER: The economics of baseball of past cities like Montreal by. BROWN: The Expos have had to deal with not only the devalued Canadian dollar, but with the fact that except for this telecast in French on opening night, none of their fans can see the games on television this season. Radio, French language radio is the only option.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
BROWN: Compare that to the Yankees, who will make as much as $70 million in their broadcast rights while the Expos make virtually nothing.
FARBER: When you don't have any revenue coming in, in fact the Expos net media revenues this year are going to be roughly zero. When you can't afford to compete with the big spender, you're never going to catch up.
BROWN: It has gotten so bad that baseball's Commissioner Bud Selig tried to kill the Expos during the off-season. Montreal and the Minnesota Twins were targeted for elimination. When those plans fell apart, Selig simply allowed the man who did own the Expos to buy another team, Florida Marlins. And Major League Baseball took over the Expos, the team essentially wards of the state.
OMAR MINAYA, GENERAL MANAGER, MONTREAL EXPOS: But we are in an unique situation. We have two choices. We can look at the glass half empty or we can look at the glass half full. I choose to look at the glass half full.
BROWN: Selig named this man Omar Minaya to be the Expos general manager and named Frank Robinson, a legendary player, to become the on-field boss.
FRANK ROBINSON: This is not a ghost ship. It's not - we're not looking for pity. I don't think this ball club needs any pity from anyone. This is almost as normal as it can be as far as on the field. Once we walk into that clubhouse we're like any other ball club.
BROWN: Well not exactly. The team does have some stars and aging Andres Galarraga (ph) for one who is gracious and patient with the few fans who do show up. But the players get it.
ED VOSBERG, PITCHER, MONTREAL EXPOS: This team has not generated a lot of fans in years past and that's why they are trying to move them, but hopefully more people will come out and more people will watch, and we can put on a good show.
BROWN: Baseball does have a history in Montreal. The great Jackie Robinson began his professional career here, but from the ticket takers who have nothing but time on their hands, to the souvenir sellers with no customers, everyone here knows that professional baseball in this city is as good as gone.
FARBER: Enjoy it now. Have fun with the Expos. Laugh with them instead of at them. But as the season drags on, this could get ugly. BROWN: Talk baseball. A number of different issues on the table with Jack Curry from "The New York Times" after break. This is NEWSNIGHT on a Friday.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: I met our next guest, I doubt he remembers this at Princeton University a few years back. Believe me I wasn't enrolled there. We were writing pieces on the basketball game at the time. Jack Curry writes for the sports pages of the "New York Times" writing about baseball and other sporty things. We're delighted to see him again. Nice to have you here.
JACK CURRY, NEW YORK TIMES: Thanks Aaron.
BROWN: Are we going to get through this baseball season?
CURRY: Well you know Bud Selig came out and said he wasn't going to lock out the players. He wanted to have a season and a post season, and if you're an educated fan you would say well that's great. But the reason is there is no reason for the owners to try ...
BROWN: Right.
CURRY: ... and lock out the players now. They're all signed for this year. They want to have a World Series. They want to go through and play the entire season, and then when the season is over, that's when the owners would like to implement some new plans, so will the players have a work stoppage? We've had eight in the last 30 years, so who's to say that there won't be a ninth.
BROWN: Has anything really changed since the strike or -- it was a strike. I have to think with baseball is it a strike or a lock out. They've had a fair number of both. But this was a strike, the one that cost them the World Series. Has anything changed in the labor relationship?
CURRY: Unfortunately, Aaron, I don't really think that it has. I think there's still a lot of stagnancy on both sides. We don't have any negotiations scheduled. We have Selig telling us that he's going to go forward and do this and the players are all saying well, of course he's saying that as a publicity stunt. So, we are looking at it eight years later and still the possibility of a work stoppage looms.
BROWN: This is one of those questions we could talk about all night. Unfortunately I'm not going to let you do that. Other sports seem to have figured this out. Football has figured it out. I mean they've got some issues, I think, in football with the salary cap. Basketball has figured it out. Why is it that baseball has never figured this out?
CURRY: Baseball has the strongest union in all of the sports. And the players association will never allow the owners to push a salary cap on them. The owners are trying to do that now in a soft sense, a soft salary cap by saying if you hit 98 million, you go over 98 million you're going to be taxed 50 percent on that, and the players are saying no way.
BROWN: Yes.
CURRY: And that players association is what keeps both of these sides not coming to any sort of head, a meeting.
BROWN: Let's talk about baseball now. What's going to be the big story, the good story this year do you think, on the field -- I don't mean off the field.
CURRY: I think one very good story that could come is in Minnesota. The Minnesota Twins were one of the two teams that ...
(CROSSTALK)
CURRY: ... should have been contracted and Bud Selig was not ...
BROWN: Contracted?
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: They could have been killed.
CURRY: Could have been eliminated. I know we use contracted, and it's a nice word that the owners have created.
BROWN: They were going to put them to sleep.
CURRY: Exactly.
BROWN: Yes.
CURRY: And this is a team, Aaron, that a lot of people forget. They were in first place for more than three months of the season last year and when their short stop Christiane Guzman (ph) goes down ...
BROWN: Right.
CURRY: This team started to fall back down. But they have great pitching. They have some very good young players, and I think they could win that division. And they would be the great under dog sheet pick. Every one would say well this is the team they wanted to get rid of and now they're in the playoffs.
BROWN: The one thing they can't do is when it gets deep into August and you're one player short. You can't - and the way the Yankees can go out and they say well we need an outfielder, and somehow they get Willie Mays every year. It seems like the Twins can't do that. The Mariners, it's a very good ball club and not, you know, sort of upper middle of the pack in terms of revenue, can't go out at the end of the year the way the Yankees or the Mets or the Dodgers can and spend money.
CURRRY: Most part they can't. But you know what? The Twins did do that last year. They got Rick Read (ph) from the Mets. They got a pitcher from the Mets whose salary was a lot more than they probably had hoped they would pay, about $7 million a year. Now whether the Twins can do that this year and add another 6 or $7 million player, you're right, George Steinbrenner tomorrow if he decided that well I need another right-hander in the bullpen, Steve Carsay (ph) is injured, go and do it. And that's what separates the Yankees. They can not only spend the money, but they can make mistakes when they're spending the money and then spend some more.
BROWN: And so for those of you grew up hating the Yankees, are we going to suffer through another year of yeah. --. CURRY: I think the Yankees are very strong once again. Pitching is baseball. They have all the pitching in the world. They have six starters trying to squeeze into five spots. And I look at their division, Aaron, and I see it as a cake walk for them and then you get to the post season and that's when again what's going to win -- pitching. And I still think they have the best starting pitching and they have the best closer on the planet in Manana Riveraph (ph).
BROWN: Yes I know, and also actually they're pretty very good guys. I mean it's hard to hate these guys. You're raised to hate the Yankees unless you grew up here.
CURRY: Joe Torre has a lot to do with that. And it was interesting when Torre first started out in '96 and a lot of these old Yankee haters would see Torre, a guy who had waited so long to get to the World Series. And I said, you know, I used to hate the Yankees ...
(CROSSTALK)
CURRY: And now because of Joe Torre I can't do that any more.
BROWN: Right. I am so with that. Nice to see you. Thanks for coming in.
CURRY: Thanks Aaron.
BROWN: On a Friday. We'll wrap it up for the week on another planet, so to speak when we come back.
COMMERCIAL BREAK
BROWN: Finally tonight" Star Wars", not another sequel, not yet. This is a chance to look back on 25 years of "Star Wars" memories in history. Can a fictional galaxy far, far away even a history? Yes or no, it's all an exhibition that opened at a museum here in Brooklyn. Perhaps more interesting than what was on display were the people showing up to see it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're here to see the opening of the magic of myth exhibit at the Brooklyn Museum of Art. See some archives, some exhibits from some archives and just have a good time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And who's your favorite character in "Star Wars"?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'd have to go with Yoda. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yoda. I had him tattooed on me twice.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have imprints (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I tell you my favorite character is Han Solo.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Always will be Han Solo. There's just something about that attitude of his.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Probably CP30 actually.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) weird.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I like him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I like the dark side. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Darth Vader.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Darth Vader.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Darth Vader's nice.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Luke Skywalker.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I guess I was always partial to help me Obi-Wan, you're my only hope.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do or do not, there was no try.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're 900 years old (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nice shot here, but don't get cocky.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: May the force be with you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am your father.
BROWN: That's it for this night. That's it for this week. Have a great weekend. We'll be back here on Monday. We hope you'll join us. Good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.
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