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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Colin Powell Arrives in Israel: Meets Sharon Friday and Arafat on Saturday; Catholics Wait to See if Cardinal Law Will Resign
Aired April 11, 2002 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening,again, everyone. Maybe it will turn out to be one huge disappointment. The Secretary of State Powell is in Israel tonight. In the next few days, it's impossible to know how many days will be dominated not, we suspect by the violence, but by the Bush Administration's most serious attempt to stop it.
So again tonight, we spend a lot of time on the Middle East. Last night, two of our guests, a former U.S. Ambassador to Israel, the other guest a former Israel Ambassador to the United States, talked about the prospects of success. Tonight, we'll hear a good deal from the other side in a number of segments and on a number of different issues.
One of our guests tonight will talk about bias he sees in the media. He and I have been going back and forth on this for more than a week. We've exchanged dozens of notes and a funny thing happened over a period of time. Anger has a way of dissipating as people get to know one another.
He and I now gently joke with each other in our notes. It doesn't mean he feels any less strongly about the issues of bias, and it certainly doesn't mean I believe he's correct. But I've come to understand much better why he thinks the way he does and I believe he's come to understand us and this program better as well.
The point of this is simple. I find it all hopeful. Maybe it is a tiny, a very tiny example of what can be if people stop shouting and listen for a change.
On to the whip, and we go first to Bill Hemmer who is in Jerusalem tonight. Bill, most important night there, the headline from you please.
BILL HEMMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Boy, indeed it is. You just mentioned the word hope. Colin Powell is here but frankly, Aaron, he did not bring a whole lot of hope with him.
Meanwhile in Jenin, there are serious and strong allegations about what happened inside that refugee camp, a lot more, and both stories coming up momentarily here. Aaron.
BROWN: Thank you, Bill. To Amman, Jordan. Christiane Amanpour had an interview with the King of Jordan today, Christiane a headline from that.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the King of Jordan Abdullah II met with Colin Powell before Colin Powell went to Israel tonight. Colin Powell is enlisting the moderate Arabs and their support, trying to get them to deliver Yasser Arafat, the king saying that everything but everything rides on Powell's meetings with Ariel Sharon and Yasser Arafat over the weekend -- Aaron.
BROWN: Christiane, not much pressure there. Thank you, back with you too in a bit. To Boston now, Frank Buckley, Catholics are in a holding pattern in that city over the fate of their cardinal, Cardinal Law. Frank a headline from you please.
FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the two million Catholics of Boston's Archdiocese continue to await word from the cardinal on what his intentions are, will he resign? Today the cardinal remained silent on that topic. Meanwhile, another lawsuit was filed in connection with the priest abuse scandal, this one alleging wrongful death -- Aaron.
BROWN: Frank, thank you, back with all of you shortly. As we said, a lot on the Middle East tonight; among our guests, the Palestinian Ambassador to the United Nations. Also, we'll have something from Saudi Arabian TV that had us all huddling around the screen at our afternoon meeting. It was a telethon, one to help the Palestinians, the kind of telethon where one of the donations was a slingshot. This is interesting stuff, their news tonight.
And a story that took two of our reporters to make happen, thousands of miles away from each other, am American teenager studying in Israel, trying to decide whether to keep studying in Israel, whether to put his life at risk. That's coming up as we go.
Also tonight, a verdict in the corruption trial of Congressman James Traficant, Kate Snow is in Cleveland and we'll be hearing from her as well.
So we have a lot of ground to cover in the hour ahead, and we of course begin with Secretary Powell's arrival and the tough job he's got ahead of him in the Middle East. It is a job the administration hoped it could somehow avoid, but no American President in the lifetime of this conflict has been able to avoid the mess. The stakes are so high.
It is a test of American influence, the only super power left, the best friend Israel has in the world. It is a test of the Secretary's stills and the administration's thinking, and above all of course, it is a test of the willingness on both sides to end the bloodshed and begin rebuilding the Palestinian areas that have been devastated by the Israeli army.
Having set the stage, we turn again to Bill Hemmer who has plenty of work to do -- Bill.
HEMMER: Aaron, hello again from Jerusalem. That first test you mentioned begins literally in four hours' time. Colin Powell will begin the first of several meetings on Friday morning, Jerusalem time. First up, the Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. That is on Friday. Then on Saturday, out to Ramallah and a meeting, a face-to-face meeting with the Palestinian Leader Yasser Arafat.
Colin Powell will have a message, very simple to Israel and a message of the Palestinians to the Israelis. It will say end the military incursions so that we can work toward a cease-fire. To Yasser Arafat, his message will be, end the terror right now ripping through Israeli cities.
Earlier tonight in Tel Aviv, Colin Powell touched down after a rather circuitous route throughout the week getting here. And earlier on Thursday, Aaron, he was in Amman, Jordan meeting there with King Abdullah, and during that meeting and after that meeting, he met with reporters. He did not put a timeframe on the military withdrawal for the Israelis, something we found quite curious. Here is Colin Powell about the U.S. message now to Israel.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: I think the President has made his position clear. He wants the incursions stopped. He has noted some progress, but he wants to see more progress, and this is what I'll be discussing with Prime Minister Sharon in the morning.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: He did not say the word immediately. The reason we point that out, for several days running now, top administration officials have always said, get out immediately, not today though. What's interesting is that yesterday in Israel, the Prime Minister publicly asked the U.S. essentially to back off of the pressure. It is possible, if you read between the lines here, that the U.S. got that message. We shall see though as the day unwinds here on Friday.
Meanwhile in Jenin, there are serious and strong allegations tonight about what happened inside that refugee camp. The Palestinians are accusing the Israelis of an outright massacre. They say at least 300 are dead in that refugee camp, allegations that the Israeli military right now is cleaning up on the inside, keeping reporters on the outside, and digging graves.
Vehemently, Israel responds and denies all of those allegations. They say the number of dead on the ground is actually a lot closer to 150. Frankly, we'd like to know ourselves but our crew earlier today, Ben Wedeman, Mary Rogers (ph) and others were kicked out of Jenin, escorted out of the town. We can not verify any of the claims right now on the ground. However though, our team will try to get back in tomorrow in the town of Jenin, northern West Bank here. Aaron.
BROWN: Bill, thank you, and again this is a very busy and important day coming up. Quickly a programming note so that you an keep track of all that is going on. CNN will provide live coverage of this most important meeting, the meeting between Secretary of State Powell and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. The coverage begins Friday, tomorrow morning after midnight, 4:00 a.m. Eastern time, 1:00 a.m. on the Pacific Coast. How much of this meeting is public, obviously we don't know. We wouldn't expect a whole lot. But certainly, the greetings and what they have to say after is extraordinarily important, and again, we will provide live coverage 4:00 Eastern time tomorrow morning.
More now on the Secretary's trip. As we mentioned earlier, he met with Jordan's young king, King Abdullah, who finds himself walking a tricky diplomatic line these days too. His father, after all, King Hussein made peace with Israel, and 30 years ago went to war with Yasser Arafat.
Today the son called his father's nemesis a hero. It is a reflection of a number of realities and an indication of how complicated events can be. The war a major reality, but also the fact that Palestinians make up a majority of Jordan's population, complicated region. That's the context. CNN's Christiane Amanpour got the interview today exclusively and she joins us again from Amman. Christiane, good evening.
AMANPOUR: Good evening, Aaron. Well the king made very clear that as one of the only two Arab countries that have made peace with Israel, Jordan was not about to break ties, nor about to align itself with any of the extremist views that may be expressing themselves in the Arab world.
Having said that, he also said that he and the other country, Egypt, had been enlisted by the United States to do all they can to pressure and to bring a reality to bear on Yasser Arafat.
Jordan and the other Arab countries expect Colin Powell to do all he can to deliver a very stiff message to Ariel Sharon, that that military incursion has to be ended, that there is no end to this situation unless there is a political track. And in the meantime, King Abdullah said that he was going to be receiving a delegation of the Palestinians to press upon them that this was the last chance for Yasser Arafat.
And he, when he was calling Arafat a hero, was reflecting what people in the Arab world feel about Arafat, since his two-week besiegement by the Israelis in Ramallah there, and he was saying that both Arafat and Sharon, for their own reasons over the last two weeks, have become strong in their public opinion at home and, therefore, should be able to make the necessary steps, the necessary compromises to bring this violence to an end.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KING ABDULLAH II: I think that, you know, he's the all-time hero in the Middle East. He is in a stronger position than any other leader is at the moment because of the popularity he has with his own people, the Palestinians, but with that of the Arab world.
So he is in a very strong position, I believe, to move peace forward and I hope that with that strength will come the vision to be able to talk to the Israelis and move away from the violence.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: He also, as I said, mentioned that Ariel Sharon, given his popularity in Israel or at least the popularity of the military operation, should also be able to deliver some compromise in this search of peace.
King Abdullah said that he was, as I said, going to receive a delegation of Palestinians, and he also suggested that a senior Egyptian official may go to visit Yasser Arafat. He said again that this is the very last chance for Yasser Arafat to get with the peace program again, and to do all that he could and all that he should to comply and to meet the demands right now of the United States.
When asked by me what kind of leverage the U.S. had anymore on either Israel or the Palestinians, given the repeated defiance by the Israeli Prime Minister to the U.S. demands, the king said if anybody can do it, it's the U.S., and if the U.S. can't do it well then nobody can do it. Aaron.
BROWN: And it's one of those realities, isn't it Christiane. Is Jordan prepared to send money or supplies to Palestinians to rebuild if some sort of cease-fire takes hold?
AMANPOUR: Yes. You know, this is a big problem right now when most people - although we haven't had a good view of what's happened inside the Palestinian territories, most of the reports are that much of the infrastructure has been devastated, and many of the, you know the buildings and all those things have been destroyed.
And so, Colin Powell in Jordan today said that Jordan itself had pledged to help rebuild, but so have the United States pledged, and also many of the other Arab countries will be enlisted to do that too. Jordan's economy is not the strongest in this region, but it has pledged to do some to help rebuild. That's the minimum that the Arab countries could do, as they try to make the Palestinians rebuild and able to be some kind of real authority that can have any kind of influence or authority anymore.
BROWN: Christiane, thank you. Christiane Amanpour, a full day in Amman, Jordan. Thank you.
Late last month, the U.N. Security Council passed a resolution calling on Israel to pull out of the West Bank. Our guest tonight was instrumental in the passage of that. He's the Palestinian permanent observer at the U.N. here in New York, Dr. Nasser Al-Kidwa joins us tonight. It's nice to see you.
DR. NASSER AL-KIDWA, PALESTINIAN OBSERVER TO U.N.: Thank you.
BROWN: When we do these interviews, it seems to me everybody knows exactly what the other side has to do. The Israelis know exactly what you guys have to do. You guys know exactly what they have to do. Tell me what your side is prepared to do for its side of the bargain here. AL-KIDWA: Implementation of all relevant Security Council resolutions, including Security Council Resolution 1402 and 1403, and that means the withdrawal of the Israeli forces from the Palestinian cities, meaningful cease-fire, and also the beginning of the implementation of Tenet and Mitchell, toward the resumption of peace negotiations between the two sides.
We have to deal with all this at once together, and we hope that the secretary will be able to do that. However, I have to say that the Israeli side already undermined an important part of the trip already because the Israeli forces remained until today in those Palestinian cities defying the request of the President.
Thus, the trip of the Secretary, instead of focusing on important issues for the future, including possible peace leads, including possible peace negotiations, will now focus instead on the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of the current situation, how the Israelis will withdraw, when will they withdraw.
BROWN: Well, that's a fair point. I mean that's a reality, that that has to happen and everybody seems in the world community seems to acknowledge that it has to happen. It does seem to me that the United States has taken a big step in your direction in this respect, that if I read the Secretary's comments correctly, he now believes that the cease-fire, whatever the mechanism of a cease-fire is, must also include a plan to resume political talks, settlement talks. That is a huge step from where the administration was three, four weeks ago, agreed?
AL-KIDWA: I agree. I think the President made the change in his statement last Thursday. He made two, actually two important announcements, one that the United States is ready to engage in a much more serious way at the highest level, that is himself personally and his Secretary of State.
And two, he also accepted the notion of the need for a political context, that while one is dealing with the situation on the ground, we have to deal at the same time with the political context. We have to convince the Palestinian people that there is a future, that there is independence, that there is a better life waiting for them, so that they have the incentive to stop the minimum resistance to the Israeli occupation.
BROWN: May I gently and humbly suggest that you also have to convince people in your - on your side of the line to stop blowing themselves up on busses and killing innocent people?
AL-KIDWA: Absolutely.
BROWN: That has to stop.
AL-KIDWA: Absolutely, and you think - I hope that everybody also understands that we look at this in a very concerned way because, you know, for a society to produce this kind of phenomenon, that means that this society has really some serious scars. BROWN: Again, but I mean, Mr. Ambassador the President of the United States has said this repeatedly, but here it is from leaders around the world. I'm sure you hear it all the time. No one seems to believe that Mr. Arafat or what was the Palestinian Authority, I'm not sure it exists anymore, has done nearly enough, nearly enough to stop this. Do you accept that as true?
AL-KIDWA: No. I don't accept that as true for simple reasons. At some point, everybody will recall when groups opposed to the peace process tried their hands, and tried to conduct this kind of operations, the Palestinian Authority was then capable of confronting those groups and trying to put an end successfully to this phenomenon.
Then the Israeli practices and the Israeli policies changed and gradually more and more Palestinians became convinced that there's no hope in this peace process, that this is taking us nowhere, and gradually also, the Israeli side started to weaken the Palestinian Authority to the point that it became incapable without a political context, especially without a political context, to confront the situation.
BROWN: These are, I know we'll agree on this, hugely important days. We appreciate your time today. I know these are long days for you. I hope you'll come back frequently over the next several days and help us navigate some of this. It's nice to see you.
AL-KIDWA: I hope so.
BROWN: Inside the building as opposed to standing outside the building. Thank you, Mr. Ambassador.
AL-KIDWA: Without cigarettes.
BROWN: No. No. No. No. Later on NEWSNIGHT, we'll see one way the Mid East conflict is being portrayed in the Arab world. It's a really interesting piece coming up and their news piece coming up later. Up next, a controversial Congressman has his day in court. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Well, I'm sure this one played out like a three-ring circus, a renegade Congressman on trial for the second time in his career, defending himself, making outrageous statements, waving a roll of toilet paper during closing arguments.
It is easy to get caught up in the theatrics of Congressman James Traficant's trial and miss what matters here. A reminder, he faced ten counts of Bribery and Corruption, and at the end of the day betraying the trust of his constituents, and at the end of the day he was convicted in Federal Court. Here again, CNN's Kate Snow.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: Essentially you face that which ultimately you must face. KATE SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): A telling comment as the Congressman returned to court to face the verdict. He sat alone again, no family, no supporters, as the jury intoned guilty after guilty on all ten counts.
Members of the jury told reporters they never had much doubt. Most of them didn't know Traficant beforehand. None were from his home base of Youngstown. They didn't appreciate the way he talked back at Federal Judge Leslie Wells, used profanity, and often raised his voice.
JERI ZIMMERMAN, JUROR IN TRAFICANT TRIAL: I think that we took it as disrespectful towards her, and as far as his persona, yes maybe you might chuckle or shrug your shoulders, but we didn't weigh it as part of the evidence. His persona was his persona and we strictly based what we ruled on as what we had in evidence and exhibits.
SNOW: The evidence, she says was overwhelming, 55 witnesses describing how he asked businessmen to do work on his house in exchange for political favors, and how he forced aides to clean horse stalls or worse, kick back a portion of their salaries. The lead prosecutor called the verdict bittersweet.
CRAIG MORFORD, ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY: There's a part of me that always feels sad, I mean that a U.S. Congressman has been convicted. I think that's a difficult thing, but I also think it's a good thing in the sense that it does say to people that nobody is above the law.
SNOW: In Washington, a close friend talked of a tough road ahead.
REPRESENTATIVE STEVE LaTOURETTE (R) OHIO: I've known him for years. He's a fighter. He fought this trial. He didn't get a lawyer when a lot of us told him he should get a lawyer, and I imagine he'll fight to retain his seat.
SNOW: Traficant himself would only say he's never been a quitter.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES TRAFICANT (D) OHIO: I don't believe I was tried by a jury of my peers. I think peers have an understanding of a person's character, and I think there are very few people on this jury that really knew Jim Traficant.
SNOW: But already, the House Ethics Committee is investigating and this call from Democratic Leader Dick Gebhardt: "In light of the gravity of the charges outlined in the guilty verdict against Mr. Traficant, I think the prudent course of action would be an immediate resignation;" Traficant's response, a vulgarity.
TRAFICANT: Gebhardt has no (UNINTELLIGIBLE). He can go (UNINTELLIGIBLE) himself.
(END VIDEOTAPE) SNOW (on camera): It's unclear whether Traficant plans to appeal this case, Aaron. He said today that he doesn't think he has much hope for an appeal. In his words, he says: "I'm too wanted." Traficant says he's not afraid of going to jail, which is probably a good thing. The sentencing won't be until the end of June, but it looks like, based on the charges that he's been convicted of, he probably faces at least several years in jail -- Aaron.
BROWN: Well, one observation. When questioned, I think we can conclude there is no love lost between Congressman Traficant and Mr. Gebhardt.
SNOW: No.
BROWN: Yes. What are the rules of the House here? He does not automatically lose his seat because he's been convicted of a felony?
SNOW: No. No, he doesn't automatically lose his seat. It's interesting. What they do typically, and what they've already done is refer the case to the Ethics Committee. Now that could go very quickly. In fact, we're told they plan to work on this very quickly, perhaps in a number of weeks. They then make a recommendation to the body of the House.
One interesting point though, Aaron, is that any member of Congress can stand up and make a motion to expel the Congressman, any Congressman convicted of a crime. Somebody could stand up and say: "I make a motion to expel him." Then it would take a two-thirds majority of the House to kick him out.
But it seems like what Mr. Gebhardt did today is try to preempt that, try to say look what he should do is resign, instead of having to face something like that down the road.
BROWN: Kate, thank you very much. Come on home now.
SNOW: Okay, I will.
BROWN: Kate Snow in Cleveland tonight. We have much more on the Middle East ahead, but up next, we'll take a look at a lawsuit involving the Catholic Church in Boston, and all of the issues attended with that sad case. This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: On the Web site of the Boston Archdiocese, there's a statement from Cardinal Law. It reads this way: "The situation is spiraling out of control. This is a menacing development. We must pray urgently and ceaselessly." He was talking about the Middle East, but he could have just as easily been referring to a crisis much, much closer to home, the newest and perhaps most shocking case of sexually abusive priests and the demands by many in Boston, and elsewhere, that the cardinal step down.
Boston Catholics, all Catholics in a state of limbo these days, waiting to hear what the cardinal will do. And in the meantime, a new lawsuit opened in yet another front in this controversy. The latest now from CNN's Frank Buckley.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BUCKLEY (voice over): Bernard Cardinal Law remained out of view, as the scandal engulfing the Boston Archdiocese took a turn, the first unlawful death suit filed in Suffolk Superior Court by the parents of 16-year-old James Francis. The teenager died in a 1981 accident, involving a car driven by Father Ronald Paquin. The parents allege in their suit that Paquin had molested their son, and there were others and the church knew it.
JEFFREY NEWMAN, PLAINTIFF'S ATTORNEY: Had they acted reasonably, this boy wouldn't have died. Had they taken this priest out of commission, he wouldn't have had access to James.
BUCKLEY: His death, according to the lawsuit, coming "as a direct result of the willful concealment by bishops of the Boston Archdiocese and others of Father Ronald Paquin's rampant and unbridled pedophilia."
Paquin couldn't be reached for comment, and the cardinal had no comment on the suit or on the growing sense in this community that he will step aside. At Catholic Boston College, though, a strong indication of the sinking level of support for the spiritual leader. Many students and faculty members saying they don't want him as one of the traditional participants in this year's graduation.
THOMAS GROOME, PROFESSOR, BOSTON COLLEGE: Part of the fear is there would be a lot of protests. There will be a lot of opposition and critique, perhaps some booing. How embarrassing for him, how embarrassing for us.
BUCKLEY: The Archdiocese own Catholic Charities also suffering from the scandal, donations down by ten percent during the Easter appeal.
JOSEPH DOOLIE, PRESIDENT, CATHOLIC CHARITIES: There were some that came back saying that they will not give to Catholic Charities until they change the leadership in the church.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BUCKLEY (on camera): Cardinal Law, however, has said in the past that he has no intention of stepping aside. He has likened his role as the archbishop of this diocese as that of a father to a family, or that of a husband in a marriage. You don't leave that marriage or that family because there is trouble. You work on it with the help of God, and that's what he intends to do here.
We should also say that just a few moments ago, we finally did reach Father Paquin, the target of that wrongful death lawsuit. He told us off camera, "I have no comment and please leave me alone."
Finally, an important epilogue to a story that we reported last weekend regarding Cardinal Roger Mahoney. He is the spiritual leader of the Los Angeles Archdiocese. Last weekend, you might recall a woman came forward and said that Mahoney molested her some 30 years ago ,when he was a priest in the Fresno area. That investigation conducted now by the Fresno police department, who tonight said there is no evidence of crime and no further action will be taken -- Aaron.
BROWN: Frank, thank you. Frank Buckley in Boston tonight.
You have know you've got trouble when the op/ed cartoonists are on your case. Cardinal Law has been the target of their work for a couple of days now. This one today. Let's just do this one, OK, guys?
In "The Boston Herald," the cardinal standing atop an enormous dead fish. "Holy mackerel," empty air freshener cans around him, and a talk bubble saying, "This doesn't seem to be covering it up anymore." Gives you some idea of how this is all playing in Boston. There's an awful lot of anticipation about what's going to happen next.
We're joined from Boston now by the former mayor. And also the former U.S. ambassador to the Vatican, Ray Flynn, is with us. And here in New York, Catholic scholar, Thomas Groome of Boston College. You heard from him briefly a moment ago in Frank's piece. Welcome to both of you.
Mr. Ambassador, you've made the argument that the cardinal ought not resign. Let me just pose the question this way. Isn't this debate about whether he stays or not, in of itself a distraction that keeps the church and the members of the church from moving on to whatever the next page is?
RAYMOND FLYNN, FMR. AMBASSADOR TO THE VATICAN: Well, there's no -- there certainly is a distraction. There's no question about it. It's even more severe than that. It's people are pained about the whole situation, particularly faithful Catholics, a lot of wonderful priests that serve our church, not only here in Boston, but across the United States, also feeling very, very pained. The victims feeling very pained.
You know, there are no winners coming out of this whole situation. And -- but I don't think there is a crisis of faith in the Catholic church, however. And hopefully the church will move forward, putting a new, no tolerance policy. So what happened to these victims at the hands of pedophile priests will never again happen to any other innocent young people.
BROWN: Well, professor, it's not -- I mean, I don't think anyone's arguing right now this crisis of faith. It's the crisis of leadership.
THOMAS GROOME, BOSTON COLLEGE: Yes. In fact, the great compliment, I think Aaron, to the faith of the Catholics of Boston, that most of them -- and there are surveys that indicate this, have been able to distinguish between the institutional leadership of the church and the deep structures of their own faith.
Now the church has been enormously important to Catholics, and it always will be. It's so integral to the nature of our faith, to be a community. And yet they have managed to realize and to recognize that the church is a means to an end. It's not an end in itself, that our faith is in God, and the scriptures in this rich Catholic tradition. So in that sense, I think the mayor is right.
However, we certainly can't be sanguine about it. Our hearts have been broken, our faith has been stretched. This has been a God- awful experience for us all. And picking up and moving on is simply imperative at this time.
BROWN: And it is, in your view, you don't have to spend, actually would rather not spend all our time talking about whether he should or not stay. But it is your view that moving on requires him to move on, as it were?
GROOME: I can't imagine us at this stage moving on and putting in place the kind of recovery, the kind of reform that is called for, beginning with the unfortunate victims and the healing that's necessary there.
I think it's patently obvious to everybody, or at least to most reasonable people, that he's not the one now to lead us. We do need a new leadership in the archdiocese of Boston. And in some ways, he's a countersign at this point. So the church that he loves and has served so well for so long, in a sense, he owes it to them to us at this point, to allow new leadership to emerge.
BROWN: Mr. Ambassador, take a few seconds, please, just a few, and respond to that, because Professor Groome made a pretty forceful argument that it's time for the cardinal to go.
FLYNN: Well, I think I can make just as a forceful argument why he should stay. And it basically is because of the fact that this man has created a heavy embarrassment on the Catholic church. There's no question about it. And the policy that he did not implement, or not having a policy, showed bad judgment.
Having said that, however, I think we need a policy, not only here in Boston, but across the United States. I can't think of anybody else who has more of an obligation and responsibility to have that policy implemented, a no tolerance policy, not only here in Boston, but also bringing his position to the United States Catholic bishops when they meet in Washington, D.C. in January. In fact, may be bring it to the Vatican himself.
He's been most responsible for what has happened. And let him take the responsibility of bringing about the kind of structural change in the church that the church desperately needs. That's why I think he's the person who is most able to do this, because he's the person who's been in the forefront of the whole controversy.
BROWN: Professor, let me make an assumption here, and then I want to go with it. I want to make an assumption here that whether it's tomorrow or a week from Thursday, that eventually he's going to go.
GROOME: I would assume so.
BROWN: And tell me if the church changes in some way? Does the church become less, I think I used the word paternalistic earlier with your or autocratic? I mean, is there a major change that needs to happen?
GROOME: Aaron, I think the resignation of Cardinal Law would simply -- I think it could be the beginning of a turnaround for the Catholic community of Boston. But it would be terribly naive if we assume that the problems would then be solved and that in fact, the solution is in place. Nothing could be further from the truth. And in that regard, I agree with the mayor.
However, putting in place the kind of structures that prevent this dreadful tragedy from happening again, that's imperative. But even beyond that, asking why, and what if, and imagining greater and better possibilities, especially for the system of Catholic ministry, and looking at that, not because we're short, or not because there's a crisis, but because it's the right thing to do at this point in time.
BROWN: Professor, nice to meet you. Mr. Ambassador, Mr. Mayor, never sure what precisely to call you. In any case, it's nice to see you and talk with you again. Thank you both for joining us. We have much more. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: A look tonight at what we like to call their news. Usually, it's a broadcast from the one of those places where news is being made. It gives us and you and idea of how the story is being reported there. Get the idea?
Tonight, a twist on their news. It involves the efforts over the last few days by the Arab world to help the Palestinians. Today, Jordan's king and queen carried cartons of aid supplies, part of a shipment that's headed for the West Bank. Egypt's president, the wife of Egypt's president launched her own aid campaign. A women's group in Kuwait donated nearly a half million dollars. It's going on across the Arab world.
In Saudi Arabia today, there was telethon, a telethon unlike anything Jerry Lewis ever did that we're sure of. One note here. You will hear the word martyr used. The Saudi Embassy in Washington says the term "martyr" in this case, the way they used it, does not mean suicide bombers, but rather, any Palestinians "who are victimized by Israeli terror and violence." That's what they told us. We take them at their word.
With that in mind, their news tonight is a piece of the Saudi telethon from Saudi National TV.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [translated] We can take part in jihad by donating money or self-sacrifice. Even if financially, you can only contribute a little, God will multiply your contribution. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [translated] I just opened this envelope, and inside there was this little ring from a widowed mother with children. She said that's all I could offer my Palestinian brother to help. I am saying to you now my Arab brothers, if this doesn't move you to act, then I don't know what would. Our hearts can't bear seeing our brothers living the Israeli siege. How could we eat, sleep, and enjoy life when our brothers are suffering? This little ring will be this sister's proof on judgment day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [translated] We said at the beginning of this telethon that all contributions will reach the families of every martyrs, every injured, and everyone who's house was destroyed to fix every damaged road, hospital, and school.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [translated] And in their innocent way of thinking, some of our children made this slingshots for their Palestinian brothers, expecting that it will reach them, if God is willing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [translated] One of our sisters lost consciousness when she watched the massacres our brother in Palestine had endured. She's now in the emergency room. Yet she is contributing to this blessed cause. "I'm donating all I own today to my brothers in Palestine. And if I have to donate parts of my body, I will. I'm doing this fully aware of my actions."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [translated] We received a fax from the Nahada (ph) Sports Club. And they are contributing one day's salary for all employees. And the woman who called to donate a piece of land of 420 square meters, the sister is saying that's all I own and please accept my donation. Also, we received the cars of donation from one generous brother. The office of mecca will stay open this evening.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [translated] The spokesperson for Prince Saud in Turkey, Ibin Saud (ph) His Excellencey, the prince has a farm that is about one million square meters. The prince is donating this farm that will be sold on the world market. 50 percent of the proceeds will be donated to the Palestinian cause.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [translated] Princess Nora bin Saud al Saud donated her private car, a Rolls-Royce and an ox.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [translated] Let's close this telethon with a general prayer to curse the Israelis, the oppressors and Zionism. And we pray for the Muslims, the Palestinians and the mujahideen.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Saudi National TV, the telethon to raise money. Gave her Rolls-royce and an ox.
We'll take a look at Palestinian criticism of U.S. media. We looked at it the other way last week. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: One day last week, two people sent e-mails back-to-back as it turned out, commenting on the same program. One said I was no better than "that war criminal Sharon." The next one said I was a modern-day version of a concentration camp capo, someone who sold out his brethren for a little extra food.
One of the two later apologized, but you get the point. Last Friday, we invited a guest here, knowing he would accuse the network of being biased against the Israelis. Just to prove we are both fair and gluttons for punishment, tonight a guest who believes we, and in this case, I think he means the general media, including us, are biased against the Palestinian side.
Ahmed Bouzid is the president of the Palestinian Media Watch. And he joins us tonight from Philadelphia. It's nice to see you. As I said at the beginning, we have talked some. It's nice to see you.
Make your case. It is, I think that we ignore, we in the media ignore the transgressions, what you see as transgressions of the Israelis?
AHMED BOUZID, PRESIDENT, PALESTINIAN MEDIA WATCH: Well, there are two kinds of things that I want to basically want to touch on is first of all, the news coverage of the conflict and the commentary coverage, and the news coverage, there are some very basic failings that we believe you are guilty of.
Your garden variety basic sloppy reporting, for example, in our newspaper here, local newspaper, "Philadelphia Inquirer," a couple of times they referred to Palestinian settlements. That's basic, you know, sloppy journalism.
The map of Israel showing, for example, the Golan Heights as part of Israel. That's basic sloppy journalism.
You have your classic loaded euphemism. For example, in headlines, we see, for example, the world "retaliation" used over and again, as if they can divine the intention of the Israelis, the Israelis are -- they got only always reacting. It's a loaded word. It's a very useful word in a sense that it sort of justifies -- it's a self-defense kind of...
BROWN: And the other thing is that you're concerned that the people who are hired to comment on the news are consistently biased?
BOUZID: Well exactly. It's not the question of them being biased. They have a right to their opinion, of course. The complaint is that we did surveys. And they're quantified surveys, that 80 percent of the column space, for instance, in your major newspapers like "The New York Times" and "The Washington Post" are devoted to the Israeli narrative.
Whereas less than 20 percent is to the pro-Palestinian narrative. And if the goal of the opening page editor is to provide his readers with as rich a rendering of an interpretation of the conflict as possible, then they're failing. Obviously they're failing. BROWN: We've got about a minute here. Never enough time. Tell me if you think over time, it has gotten better or worse? Do you think the Palestinian's story is better told, and we've got about 20 seconds to answer it?
BOUZID: Yes, it is getting better. But we have to ask the people criticizing the media. We have to keep at it every single day. I have to keep calling my newspaper every single day, communicating with them, and telling them that they did this wrong, that wrong. It's like pulling teeth.
For example, we tried to get a front page headline of Palestinian suffering. And we were only able to get it only after so much effort. So the media is definitely getting better, but it takes a lot of effort from people who want...
BROWN: Ahmed, I can tell you this, you are relentless. And I enjoy our communication.
BOUZID: All right.
BROWN: Thank you.
BOUZID: Thanks a lot, Aaron.
BROWN: We'll do this again. We'll continue in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Herald Yashiba (ph) isn't like most American kids. He's spending a year after high school and before college studying in Israel. He came home to New York to celebrate Passover with his family. And so, he witnessed the bloodiest violence of this conflict from the safety of his home. But there, he was forced to decide: do stay in New York, or do I return to my studies in Israel. Harold's choice tonight from two of our reporters.
Rose Arce begins the story here in New York. Jason Bellini picks it up later.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROSE ARCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): (UNINTELLIGIBLE) devotion to God, and nighttime basketball with brother Max, plenty of hockey, and collecting the coins of American states.
So you have like your own "Sports Illustrated" library going?
HAROLD YASHIBA, STUDENT: For the most part, yeah. One day I was actually bored. I actually put them in dates order. That was a little weird. I don't like to talk about it so much.
ARCE: A 19-year-old kid from Queens, home for spring break. But with a difficult decision on this years Holocaust remembrance day. Returning to school means Israel.
So you know, I look at this and your sports stuff and everything. And you seem like a really American kid to be going to Israel.
YASHIBA: If you look at me I'm wearing a yarmulke. And I think I'm a Jew first. And Israel is the home of the Jews. And I think it's important for me to go there and to be there as much as possible, especially in this time of really need for Israel.
ARCE: Even if it worries his parents.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've been watching and seeing what's happening. And it's very upsetting. I know that he's going back around the time this is all going on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every time we hear of some incident in Israel, you know, we -- our hearts pounded and you know, and our first thought, you know, immediately to call Harold.
ARCE: He decides to return on the midnight flight, El Al 008.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So what did you do when you were home? Nothing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I ate a lot!
ARCE: With a final prayer for his safety and a plea for a window seat, on a 12 hour flight with 47 infants and dozens of returning teens.
YASHIBA: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got to say goodbye to Harold now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do we have to?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we have to.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you want to go with him?
ARCE: So I watched his sad goodbye to his family and heard a promise to be safe. My colleague, Jason Bellini, greeted him in Israel.
JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Harold arrived safely at Ben Gurion Airport in Tel Aviv. Moments after I met him, his cell phone rings.
It's his mom.
YASHIBA: In Haifa, right. I heard there as terrorist attack.
BELLINI: I asked Harold if he heard the news. That while he was in the air, another suicide bomber struck, killing eight Israelis. He had heard. But Harold is still happy to be here.
YASHIBA: You can't let the terrorists win. You can't let the fight -- by staying home, by staying in America, you just saying -- you're living too dangerously. I'm staying home and winning. You win the war. You can't let them do that. I probably won't be going out much. During -- before Passover, I'd gone out a few times. Not excessively, but I had gone out out. But my mom said I shouldn't go out so much.
BELLINI: Harold Yashiba (ph) is behind closed gates. The violence, in all likelihood, locked out of the quiet student community. But in Israel, it's impossible to know where you're vulnerable.
YASHIBA: It's a little more dangerous than you realize because people are just walking amongst you could just want to blow themselves up. And you don't know, you don't know what to look for. You don't know anything.
BELLINI: Tonight, he's not so much afraid as he is tired.
YASHIBA: Go to sleep. I have to wake up early tomorrow morning. Tomorrow is the first day of school. And here I have -- we pray at 6:45 in the morning.
BELLINI: That's about the at the same time his parents, as they go to sleep in New York, will say their prayers for him.
For Rose Arce in New York, I'm Jason Bellini, CNN, Jerusalem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And we'll keep track of Harold in the coming weeks, see how he's doing, as we watch the negotiations unfold. 4:00 Eastern time, CNN live coverage of Secretary of State Powell and Israeli Prime Minister Sharon. We'll see you tomorrow at 10:00. Good-night.
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