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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Powell Winds Down His Mideast Mission With No Cease-Fire in Place; Pope Will Discuss Child Sex Scandal With American Cardinals

Aired April 16, 2002 - 21:59   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again. I'm Aaron Brown, we are in Atlanta tonight.

Tomorrow Secretary of State Powell will meet again with Yasser Arafat amid signs, lots of them, both in the Middle East and at the White House that a mission that was a long shot at best is not going to lead to any sort of breakthrough in the Middle East.

Secretary Powell failed to get the Israelis to pull out of the West Bank and Arafat has made it clear that the violence won't end until the Israelis pull out. American power and influence has limits and the Bush Administration's willingness to use its influence on Israel in particular, where it has the most leverage, has limits as well.

There are also limits for reporters. While many people have suspicions about what happened at the refugee camp in Jenin, whether the Israelis massacred hundreds, suspicion is not about what we do. It is true the decision by the Israeli government to keep reporters out during the operation kept the world from seeing the dirty work of war. It is also true that that decision will make it virtually impossible to know for certain what happened there.

So the Israelis will live with the suspicion for years to come. That is the bed they made. The world will see, and we will show you tonight what Jenin looks like. Imagination of what happened, will unfortunately replace hard and certain facts. Each side will tell their story. Neither will agree on what happened. It is, after all, the Middle East.

So on to the whip. In Jerusalem first, Secretary Powell's mission winding down now, violence flaring up, Bill Hemmer has the duty. Bill a headline please.

BILL HEMMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Aaron, the road to peace right now in this current mission runs through Ramallah, just about five hours away from the second and final meeting between Chairman Arafat and Secretary Powell. But frankly, there is very little optimism tonight at this point about any breakthrough on this current mission -- Aaron.

BROWN: Bill, thank you, back to you in a moment. Washington next. The Supreme Court ruled today on a naughty little issue, the sexual exploitation of children and a law that seemed to make even the appearance of it illegal.

CNN's Kelli Arena covering. Kelli the headline there.

KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the Supreme Court says that the government went too far; the justices today knocking down a ban on virtual pornography, saying that the law violates the First Amendment -- Aaron.

BROWN: Kelli, thank you. In Rome, the Vatican giving a bit of a hint what's in store for U.S. cardinals when they arrive for an extraordinary meeting next week. CNN's Alessio Vinci, a headline from you please.

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron. As many as 11 U.S. cardinals will be traveling to Rome next week to meet with top Vatican officials, including we understand the pope. On the agenda, only one item, the pedophilia scandal that has rocked the U.S. Catholic Church in recent months. What can be done to restore trust in the clergy and what should be done in order to prevent the problem and the scandal from spreading further -- Aaron.

BROWN: Alessio, in a moment, and back to the United States, another shock to the priesthood. CNN's Connie Chung covering that from our NEWSNIGHT studio in New York. Connie a headline please.

CONNIE CHUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, a Roman Catholic priest is convicted of molesting a 13-year-old girl more than 20 years ago, but is acquitted of rape charges. I'll have an exclusive interview with the Reverend Donald Kimble who makes a surprising revelation -- Aaron.

BROWN: Connie, thank you, back with all of you shortly. Also tonight, we'll talk with lay Catholics about what should be said at next week's summit in Rome, and their own relationship with the church, which obviously has undergone a lot of pressure.

More on the Middle East as well, as we said, back to Jenin in search of what really happened there. The pictures tell a horrible story, but perhaps not the entire story. CNN's Sheila MacVicar will have more on that.

Also tonight, the war at home, two American families, Israeli- American and Arab-American, watching developments in the Middle East and seeing two very different stories, but they both hope for the same ending, a peaceful one some day.

That, of course, is a hope. We begin with the reality and that's far more complicated. The growing prospect that Secretary of State Powell's mission will end without much to show for it. A U.S. official today put it this way. It's hard to see how we can claim victory at this point. In many respects, it's hard to see what has changed, despite the Secretary's considerable efforts.

Tonight, at least, no one expects a cease-fire, just as no one expects the Israelis to pull out before they are good and ready. Ariel Sharon has proved that he was, as he has always been, one tough nut to crack and the Palestinians were no less unyielding. For the administration that wanted to avoid exactly this sort of thing, welcome to the Middle East. We set the stage in Jerusalem and CNN's Bill Hemmer. Bill, good evening.

HEMMER: Aaron, good evening to you and good morning right now from Jerusalem.

Colin Powell met for the third time with the Prime Minister Ariel Sharon on Tuesday. Aides acknowledge to CNN that Secretary Powell pushed for a road map for further withdrawal, but the aides acknowledge that Secretary Powell did not get that road map. In fact, he got little more than we all knew yesterday at the interview with the Prime Minister.

There will be a withdrawal, he says, within days, no more than a week for most major towns in the West Bank, with the exception of Bethlehem and Ramallah, little change from yesterday. Still, prior to that meeting, Secretary Powell was hinting at the possibility of progress.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We're going to have good conversations, my staff and the Palestinian side today, and I look forward to seeing the Chairman tomorrow morning. I think we're making progress and look forward to further progress over the next 24 hours. But I don't want to give you specifics just yet of what we're able to achieve and unable to achieve.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: Despite the fact that Israel's moving back into Tulkarem today?

POWELL: There are lots of ins and outs and you'll see how it all shakes out.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: Secretary Powell earlier today in that meeting with Ariel Sharon, and now the focus shifts to Ramallah. Officials acknowledge right now they're not pinning a whole lot on this meeting. They say it's make or break, but they don't anticipate any breakthroughs there.

In fact late tonight, U.S. officials still working the phones and they acknowledge that before when they were going to push Yasser Arafat into a cease-fire, right now they say they're not sure they can even come close to that, so they possibly won't even bring that up. What comes out of that meeting, though, is a wide-open issue at this point.

From there, it's off to Cairo, Egypt for Secretary Powell and returning back to Washington late on Wednesday night. A small diversion though from the news now that we've been reporting from Jerusalem for the past three weeks' time. Israel today celebrated Independence Day and in the night sky in central Jerusalem, a fireworks display to usher in the 54th year of independence, a nice diversion.

As I mentioned, still though many of those 54 years spent like it is right now, a country at war. Aaron.

BROWN: Bill, thank you. One quick question from us tonight, there was talk over the last 24 hours of the possibility of some sort of regional summit or international summit. Not precisely clear who would attend. Any more talk on that today?

HEMMER: Yes quickly, Ariel Sharon did talk about it earlier today. He talked about it possibly happening in the U.S., possibly in June. But again, there's a major caveat here. Ariel Sharon says Yasser Arafat can not be involved. The Palestinians say forget it. We're not going to talk if that can't be. They're still talking about it, Aaron, but listen we are far from making anything right now in terms of concrete plans.

HEMMER: Sure.

BROWN: Bill, thank you. We'll wait for the meeting between the Secretary and Chairman Arafat tomorrow morning our time.

HEMMER: Yes.

BROWN: More from the Middle East a little later in the program. Again, we'll take a good look at the city of Jenin, or at least as good a look as we can get at the refugee camp.

And also, earlier today we talked with Gideon Meir, a senior adviser to Ariel Sharon, and we will run that interview as well. On to other things, first we stop in Washington next.

Here's what the Supreme Court said today. You can protect children, but you can not protect figments of the imagination. The court didn't use precisely those words, but that is essentially what a majority of the justices said in a decision overturning a law the Justice Department hoped would prohibit an Internet phenomenon called "Virtual Child Pornography."

In truth, we wish we didn't have to explain to you exactly what this is, but of course we do. CNN's Justice Correspondent Kelli Arena has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARENA (voice over): Are these computer-generated images of child porn or the real thing? Investigators often have a hard time telling them apart. Even so, the Supreme Court says they are vastly different.

In a 6-3 ruling the high court lifted a ban on virtual pornography, saying it violates First Amendment rights. The case was brought by the Free Speech Coalition, the porn industry trade group.

H. LOUIS SIRKIN, FREE SPEECH COALITION: Virtual reality part, again it's making a crime out of something that is not really a crime. You know, how do you, you know, how do you punish or charge conduct that isn't really conduct. It's a figment of someone's imagination.

ARENA: It is a blow to the Bush Administration, which says the ruling will make prosecuting pornographers much more difficult.

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: We will continue to use every available resource to identify, investigate, and prosecute child pornography cases to the fullest extent of the law.

ARENA: Supporters of the ban argue computer-generated images are just as harmful as the real thing.

KEN CONNOR, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: We see pedophiles who use these images as bait, as a lure for young children.

ARENA: And in a dissenting opinion, Chief Justice William Rehnquist wrote: "The aim of insuring the enforceability of our nation's child pornography laws is a compelling one," but the majority of justices disagreed.

Justice Anthony Kennedy said the ban violates free speech and that, "the First Amendment requires a more precise restriction." Citing Shakespeare's "Romeo and Juliet," Justice Kennedy noted that teenage sexual activity has inspired countless literary works, and he said the ban could even make it a crime to depict sex scenes involving minors in Hollywood movies, such as "Traffic."

SIRKIN: I think that that's why it becomes important to attack something that may go beyond the scope of permissible legislation to attack it right away.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ARENA (on camera): Justice officials say that they are already considering going back to Congress with a narrower bill, which would ban images of very young children. Now officials believe that arguments of artistic or literary value would be a lot more difficult under those circumstances. Aaron.

BROWN: This is what I want to deal with now. They want to go and get a new law that deals with virtual images of very young children. They are not real children, correct?

ARENA: That's right, not real children. These are just images of children.

BROWN: And stop me when I mess this up, as I well might. These laws, these child pornography laws are designed to protect children from being exploited. There are no children here, right?

ARENA: Well, that's - there are no real children. The argument is though that any images involving sexual exploitation of children fuel the perhaps a pedophile's urges or a child molester's urges to go ahead and actually harm an actual child.

Some family groups, the Family Research Council for one, arguing that it's harmful for children to see other children involved in sexual acts, especially ones that are violent, whether they're real or virtual.

Investigators have said, Aaron, that these virtual children are so real looking that you can not tell the difference, and so any harm that is done psychologically to a child or to an adult by looking at those images, is done whether that is a virtual or a real person.

So that is the argument behind what the government is trying to pursue in going forward with another bill and another attempt at trying to get somewhat of a ban on this new technology that's emerging.

BROWN: Kelli, thank you. As we said at the beginning, we're sorry we had to deal with any of this. Thank you very much, Kelli Arena in Washington.

We're beginning our coverage of next week's Vatican Summit, with a bit of a surprise. Boston's cardinal Bernard Law is already in Rome, has already met with the pope. Cardinal Law says he raised the possibility of resigning, but came away from the meeting with a new determination to stay on and to deal with the scandal in his archdiocese, the Archdiocese of Boston. The cardinal says he is returning home encouraged. He'll be back in Rome next week.

And about the meeting, there was a sign today that the scandal Rome sees is quite different from the scandal many Americans see, that it was not that the church fought the victims' legal claims too much, as many Americans believe, but that church officials didn't fight the accusations hard enough. Alessio Vinci is in Rome for us tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VINCI (voice over): The statement from the Vatican is brief, calling the unprecedented meeting of U.S. cardinals a way to restore happiness in the families and trust in the clergy.

The meeting is expected to focus on a series of nationwide guidelines U.S. bishops are still working on, guidelines on how to prevent future sex abuse cases. For example, how to handle first reports of alleged sexual misconduct, and when to report such cases to local authorities.

This meeting is a chance for the Vatican to have a say in the writing of those guidelines.

Privately, some Vatican officials tell veteran journalists here that they are unhappy with the way some U.S. bishops and cardinals have handled the scandal so far, mainly the legal strategy of settling cases before they are made public.

ROBERT MICKENS, VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: They send out a signal that you can go after the church and they'll give you lots of money. They should have never done this, so they made a mistake. Well, there are people upset the way the bishops have handled this thing, and I think there is going to be some reprimand.

VINCI: And who will be at the table? U.S. cardinals will spend most of their time meeting top Vatican officials. The statement mentions three senior cardinals, including those who have recently been reluctant to answer reporters' questions on the ongoing scandal in the U.S. There is no mention in the Vatican statement of a meeting with the pope himself, although observers say it is likely to happen.

MICKENS: The pope usually comes in on these things to say hello, to meet some of these people, and maybe to get a briefing, or a debriefing on some of the proceedings, but have lunch with them certainly, and he'll have probably individual meeting with them as well, but as far as the pope sitting in on all these discussions, I don't think that's going to happen.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VINCI (on camera): This will be the first time that the Vatican has called an emergency meeting to deal with such a touchy issue, such as the sex abuse allegations involving priests and young children. It is also the best indication so far that Vatican officials are beginning to grasp the magnitude of the scandal. Aaron.

BROWN: I think we're all just beginning to grasp the magnitude. I'm very curious how this story plays in Rome and across Europe. Is it getting a lot of attention in the press there?

VINCI: No, not at all, Aaron, and that may be one of the explanations why Vatican officials here in Rome at the Vatican may have been a little bit slow in recognizing how much this was really being played out in the United States.

During press conferences, recent press conferences at the Vatican, Vatican officials even suggesting that the story was merely a story that was only taking place in the country, in Anglo-Saxon countries, mainly the United States, where the press has been reporting this a lot more than it has been here in Europe.

That is not to say that in Europe there are no sex abuse scandals. It takes place everywhere here in Europe, in Poland, a native country of the Holy Father, as well as Italy here, as well as France, Ireland recently. So it is certainly a problem that has erupted in the church throughout the world, but only the United States has received that kind of attention. Aaron.

BROWN: Alessio, thank you. You have a busy week this week. Alessio Vinci in Rome for us tonight. Another shockwave hit the church late tonight, at least late tonight here on the East Coast. There was a verdict in the trial of a priest in the San Francisco Bay area. Connie Chung joins us for that story next. And then a bit later, we go back to the Middle East for a look inside the refugee camp at Jenin. This is NEWSNIGHT from Atlanta.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: There was another reminder today that the troubles of the Catholic Church reach from one end of the country to the other. They are hardly confined in Boston. It came in a verdict tonight in the trial of a Bay Area priest on charges of molestation and rape. Connie Chung has been reporting this story for a special report that will air on CNN tomorrow night. We go back to New York and Connie for a preview, Connie good evening again.

CHUNG: Good evening, Aaron. The Reverend Don Kimble tonight was convicted of sexually abusing a 13-year-old girl more than 20 years ago, but he was acquitted of raping a 14-year-old girl. Kimble was immediately taken into custody after the verdict was announced in a Santa Rosa courtroom. He will be sentenced in a month, and could face a maximum of 14 years in prison.

Mary Abayani (ph) had alleged that the priest had raped here, and Ellen Brim (ph) accused Kimble of molestation. I talked with Reverend Kimble just last Friday, as the jury began deliberations. Throughout, Kimble has maintained his innocence, but in this exclusive interview, he did make a surprising admission.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: -- your vow of celibacy?

REVEREND DON KIMBLE: Have I found my way to get close to some women? A few, yes.

CHUNG: Those few times that you strayed, were these women adult women?

KIMBLE: All adult women.

CHUNG: Were any of them underage?

KIMBLE: No.

CHUNG: Did you at any time molest or have sexual contact with anyone underage?

KIMBLE: No.

CHUNG: If you did stray as a priest, you did have relations with, as you say, adult women, if you're willing to break that rule -

KIMBLE: Why not break them all, is that what you're asking? I was looking for a partner my age or as close to my age as I could get, and I don't think you get a perfect match on age. I think you want to get the right match person wise, and I wasn't looking at little kids.

CHUNG: But you know what happens, you have two women who tell their story, believe it certainly in their hearts?

KIMBLE: I think some people come to believe it.

CHUNG: And everyone out there is saying, well is he a molester or isn't he?

KIMBLE: Yes, right. They're always going to wonder that, I think. This jury walks out and says "not guilty," they're still going to wonder. (END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG (on camera): We'll have more of my exclusive interview with Reverend Kimble and the women who accused him on a CNN Special Report, "Fall From Grace, Crisis in the Church," tomorrow night at 8:00 Eastern time. Aaron.

BROWN: Connie, we look forward to it. Thank you. Nice to see you there too by the way.

CHUNG: Thank you. Usually I'm here when you're not here, right?

BROWN: That's right. It's strange how it works. Thank you. We look forward to tomorrow. Coming up on NEWSNIGHT tonight, the church's troubles seem not from the altar but from the pew. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: It's an awfully difficult thing to talk about, difficult for us to talk about. Surely it's difficult for church figures to talk about, and especially difficult it must be for the faithful to talk about. But just as surely, the faithful are talking about the scandals that are confronting the Catholic Church tonight.

Joining me this evening, David Nyhan, a long and distinguished reporter and columnist for the Boston Globe, now a Fellow at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard, and Kim Serafin, who has served two Republican Mayors, Rudolph Giuliani in New York and Richard Reardon in Los Angeles, as Press Secretary. Good to have you both.

Kim, let's start with a couple of large questions and work down. Are you any less - do you feel any less a Catholic now than you did before all this stuff started? Are you as equally devoted to the church today?

KIM SERAFIN, POLITICAL CONSULTANT: Yes, well I mean as someone who is, you know I'm in my 20s. I certainly have had problems with the Catholic Church. I think women should be ordained. But also as someone in my 20s maybe I was brought up in a society that's maybe a little bit more cynical.

You know, I grew up with 24-hour news and gossip columns and you know I don't think the Kennedy Era was Camelot. So, I believe that priests are human, and that they're flawed, and I lived through the Clinton scandal.

So I think for most people of my generation, maybe we're disappointed and disgusted by what the priests have done and the cover up, but I think at the same time, not necessarily surprised and certainly don't believe that any religion is perfect.

BROWN: Do you separate the hierarchy of the church, the organization of the church from the meaning of the religion itself?

SERAFIN: Yes, and I think that's been reflected. I mean I try to go to church every Sunday, and one of the stories I've been telling people is that I went to church Easter Sunday, and I expected, because that was really in the height of everything going on, I expected there to be less people there than I had seen in the past.

But instead, I showed up and there were, you know, not only more people than I had ever seen, but young people and young couples with their children. So I think that people again, what they're saying, well this is my priest. This is my church. I don't think they're part of the scandal. I'm not going to blame every priest, just because the hierarchy of the church made a mistake and covered things up. You know, I'm a good Catholic. I still like this hour every Sunday to come and reflect and pray, and I think that's how I feel as well.

BROWN: David, basically the same question, any sense affect our sense of faith?

DAVID NYHAN, JOHN F. KENNEDY SCHOOL OF GOVERNMENT, MARYLAND UNIVERSITY: No. I think that the surprising thing about this here in the epicenter of the scandal in Boston is that almost every Catholic that you talk to about this, they may be angry or sullen or confused or withholding money from the church, but this has not shaken faith.

It's shaken confidence in the leadership and in Cardinal Law and in a half dozen of the bishops whom he promoted, who now have problems of their own in this area, which is one reason I think that the Vatican is finally involved. They realize that they can't just lop off law and have the scandal disappear. They've got a systemic problem.

But individual Catholics are showing up for church. They're discussing their faith. There's been more attention paid, I think, to the idea that people have of the church as a religious institution and the flawed men who have created this problem.

BROWN: Do you believe the Vatican has the wherewithal to solve this problem, the willingness to deal with both the past and the future here?

NYHAN: It's a very authoritarian structure. The pope is clearly not only aged but infirm and ailing and barely able to function in his official duties. He didn't do mass. You know, he couldn't do what he normally does on Easter.

My sense is that some men around him, the curia, these conservative cardinals who are, in effect, his cabinet who realize the thing has spiraled out of control here in Boston. That's why they're having the 11 Catholic cardinals from the U.S. Two of them are - the other two are too old to travel. They'll have them in Rome.

But everybody in Boston that I talk to believes that Cardinal Law is not long for his job, and that only waits a decision in Rome how to handle this and who do we put in there, and then he's out of there, possibly taken to Rome and given a job there.

BROWN: Kim, I hope this isn't an unusually dumb question from me. It seems to me if you're Presbyterian or if you're Jewish and you lose faith in whatever hierarchy your religion has, it's not a big deal because these are not a religions with a structured and powerful hierarchy? If you lose faith in the hierarchy of the Catholic church, as a non-Catholic at least, that strikes me as quite a big deal. Is it?

SERAFIN: Well, I don't think so, because I don't think most Catholics, at least most Catholics I know in my experience, yes, the pope is important certainly. But I think people see their own individual church as a community and they listen to what their own priest says.

So they listen to the individual masses. And so, I don't think they look at, you know, what's going on necessarily in Rome as the end all and be all to it. If they're happy with their own parish and with their priests, I think that's fine for them.

I mean, and I look at this as sort of a PR person. That's my background. And you know, I think what Catholics are seeing right now is that the Vatican is at least making an effort. And we all know from, you know, good PR, put out everything. You know, get it out in the open. Tell the truth from the beginning.

BROWN: Do you think on this point that your parents' generation or your grandparents' generation might view that question differently, the importance of the hierarchy?

SERAFIN: Yes, I totally believe that. I mean, I talked -- both my - I have two younger sisters and they both go to Catholic school. I didn't. But I asked both of them, and they said, well, you know, no, because my -- you know, the priest at my Catholic school, he spoke to us about this. And he told us that, you know, he's human and he's upset with what's going on and what the priests are doing.

And I spoke to my other sister, who's 21-years-old. And she, you know, goes to church at 6:00 a.m. if she has a test at college during the day. And she said, you know, no, because I look at, you know, I look at my own individual priests and my own relationship with God.

But yes, I believe it's a completely different relationship that younger people have than what my grandparents would have.

BROWN: And David, I'm curious where you think this is all going? Not so much in the sense what comes out of the Vatican. We'll see what happens. I'm curious where it's going in terms of the American branch of the Catholic church, Catholics here. Will there ultimately be some benefit to this horrible pain?

NYHAN: I think some people have found their faith reaffirmed. And I know that in a lot of parishes in Boston, there's a wave of affection and support for priests whom people know well, and who have been good priests, doing difficult jobs, particularly now where a lot of non-Catholics might look at them with suspicion.

There is great sympathy for the good priests, or our pastor, or our curate. There is a tremendous sense of empowerment of the layity. People think they're going to have more say. I have doubts as to whether the Vatican and the conservative cardinals that have been appointed by this pope will allow even discussion of issues like celibacy, ordination of women, or repeal of the bans on, not only abortion, but contraception, invitro fertilization.

Cardinal Law was installed by this very conservative pope in the mid '80s to come and crack down on what are called cafeteria Catholics, those Americans who decided to pick and choose from the smorgasborg of the faith and choose which laws and commandments they wish to obey and ignore the ones they didn't want, say on abortion or contraception.

BROWN: Yes.

NYHAN: And Law has been a strict conservative. And I think there's now a feeling that the tide is rolling the other way, but Rome has a very difficult job to do. Who succeeds Cardinal Law and how does he handle these pressures that have been unleashed, this lava flowing up from the bottom in Boston is very much up in the air?

BROWN: David, Kim, both of you next week, I assume it's going to be a fascinating week. Here's an invitation to come back and join us, talk more about this as we see what unfolds. Thank you both.

SERAFIN: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you. In a moment, we go back to the Middle East, the aftermath of the fighting in Jenin, and fighting that is still going on in Bethlehem. Back to the Middle East as NEWSNIGHT continues for a Tuesday night in Atlanta.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Back to the Middle East now and the battle at Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity. Gunfire erupted there just after sundown in the Middle East. Israeli soldiers trading shots with Palestinians holed up inside. Or at least, that's what we believe went on. There are conflicting views here as well. A Palestinian legislator says he watched this skirmish unfold.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SALEH TAMARI, PALESTINIAN LEGISLATOR: The Israelis opened fire on the church from every direction, accompanied by shells. One of the rooms in the church caught on fire. And the shooting at the church lasted for about 30 minutes.

There was no provocation whatsoever. They just opened fire on the church.

BROWN: The Israeli government denied that, saying no plan is underway to storm the church. About 200 Palestinians remain inside, along with about 50 members of the clergy.

As we said at the beginning of the program tonight, we can show you Jenin, the refugee camp there, but we can't tell you with anything approaching certainty what actually happened at the refugee camp. We can show you bulldozed homes, lots of them, but we can't report with certainty why they were torn down.

We know how much partisans on both sides want those of us who report the news for a living to believe their side. Tonight, at least, our response is, we don't have enough facts. We wish we did.

Here is what we know from CNN's Sheila MacVicar.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Before the Israeli forces invaded two weeks ago, this was the crowded center of Jenin refugee camp. There were apartment houses on twisting, narrow streets, bustling and busy.

That neighborhood is now gone, erased by Israeli bulldozers, turned into a river of concrete and twisted steel, spreading over two city blocks. Everywhere, there is evidence of life interrupted. The Israeli military say this was the scene of some of the fiercest fighting and not a neighborhood, they say, but a fortress.

(on camera): This camp, say the Israelis, was the heart of the Palestinian terror infrastructure. And the civilians who lived here, the women and children, they say were used as shields.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can see another explosive device over here, over there, and another one over there.

MACVICAR (voice-over): On Tuesday, the Israeli military took journalists to the camp to show what they say is evidence of a highly- prepared terrorist fighting force. Over and over, they denied Palestinian allegations there had been a massacre here. They say they evacuated civilians. They now claim Israel's military was held off by only about 200 Palestinian fighters.

RAJ LAGERMAN, MAJOR, ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCES: We have apprehended 150 of them. And we estimate that the amount of people killed totally in the camp are about 50. Let's say, to be a bit more accurate, it will be a few dozens of people.

MACVICAR: That is a far cry from Israeli Defense Force claims last week that about 200 Palestinians had died. After a ruling by Israel's high court, the military was required to permit international medical teams to supervise the recovery of the bodies, to try to provide some answers.

How many bodies, how many fighters, how many civilians, no one yet knows. No one even knows how many might be missing. Only a few hundred of the camps surviving inhabitants are still in their own homes. The rest are scattered and have not yet been counted.

It is mostly women and children who are left. And some of them wander the camp weeping, crying for lost brothers and sons. And they point to that mountain of rubble and say that is where they lie.

Sheila MacVicar, CNN, Jenin refugee camp.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Up next, a top advisor to Ariel Sharon. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: By now, you're as familiar as we are with the most maddening aspect of covering the Middle East, not just two sides to the story, but two entirely different realities. That is true about the fighting, and about what it will take to stop the fighting. And it is true about the suicide bombings, and it is especially true now about Jenin.

A bit more on the Israeli view from Gideon Meir, a close advisor to Ariel Sharon. We talked to him earlier today. The sounds you may hear at the end are not gunfire. They're fireworks. You saw them earlier in the program, part of the celebration of Israeli Independence Day.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Mr. Meir, I'm told you were in Jenin today. Given the charges, the accusations being made against the Israeli government and the IDF, do you as a government, regret not allowing reporters in earlier?

GIDEON MEIR, SENIOR ADVISER TO ARIEL SHARON: No, I think there was no -- it wasn't possible to let the reporters in. And even today while I was in Jenin. And I'm not a reporter. I was allowed into Jenin only today because I wanted to see with my eyes what's going on in there.

There was still firing going on. There were still some explosions going on. It is quite dangerous to go into Jenin, even at this moment. So I don't think there was a mistake.

I want to tell you and to share with you my feelings, because while reporters are promoting a Palestinian lies of massacre, there is a lot of devastation. Massacre, zero. No massacre, maybe to the regret of the Palestinians.

The Palestinians are very busy to promote a fake massacre, while their terrorists are busy massacring our people, 500 yards from here in the markets. You know, the only massacre I really know in the past 18 months are massacres in the Israeli discoteques of teenagers, the massacre in our pizzerias, the massacre on Passover night in the Passover massacre in a hotel in Netanya. These are the massacres.

Israeli idea of soldiers. And it was proven to me today. I looked into their eyes. I saw young soldiers, 19, 20-years-old. These are not people who are massacring. These are people who have heavy fight. Palestinians gave us a heavy fight. And we lost 23 boys there. If that would have been a massacre, we wouldn't have lost so many soldiers.

BROWN: Sir, the problem is going to be, and I think we both have to be realistic about this, the problem's going to be how does the Israeli government prove that there was no massacre? How does the Israeli government prove its defense forces behaved appropriately?

MEIR: A, why do always do we have to prove? Ask the Palestinians to prove that there was a massacre. There was no massacre. I told you, the only massacre is Palestinian massacre of innocent Israeli teenagers.

B, if we wanted really to massacre, you send helicopters. You send tanks from away. You shell. You bombard. You see a real devastation, not a devastation which I saw today, which is only in the center of the camp.

BROWN: Secretary Powell's mission appears to be winding down. From here, it appears he didn't get what he wanted from your side. And it doesn't look like he's going to get the clear denunciation of terror from the other side. Is the mission a failure?

MEIR: I hope that not, from our side he's getting. Because in a week, we're out. We're out from all the places. And hopefully, there will be an agreement in Bethlehem, in the Church of the Nativity. So those who are there, who have blood on their hands, the terrorists there, will either surrender themselves or will be exiled according to the agreement.

And in Ramallah, those who killed, who murdered our minister of tourism, Al Habam Zaevi (ph) will be surrendered to us. And (UNINTELLIGIBLE), who is the one who is in charge of bringing in the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) A ship with a load of weapons. Otherwise within a week, we're out.

BROWN: Well, it's a big otherwise. But you wouldn't characterize the mission a failure?

MEIR: I hope that not. Right now, to the best of my knowledge, the Palestinians are not willing neither to denounce terror, not to stop terror, and not to accept the Zinni proposals.

And I want to remind all of us, it was Israel, the eve of Passover or the eve of this massacre, that Israel said yes to Zinni. Yes, to his proposals. Even though we didn't like all of them, we said yes, because we wanted General Zinni to succeed in his mission, the same way we wanted Secretary Powell to succeed in his mission. Because the only political game in town are -- is the America administration. This is the only administration who can really bring peace in this region. But the Palestinians have to have a will. And right now, the will is not there.

BROWN: Sir, as always, it's good to talk to you. I hope we'll talk again on better days. Thank you.

MEIR: Thank you very much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Meir, an adviser to Ariel Sharon, prime minister of Israel.

Next on NEWSNIGHT, the story of two families living in the shadow of the Middle East, a very long way from the Middle East. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Segment 7 tonight. As hard as it is for us to watch the developments as they unfold in the Middle East, it is especially difficult on those who once called Jerusalem home, or Jenin, or Tel Aviv. Many have come to the United States in search of better life, but they are always connected to the lives of the people they left behind.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AARON WEINBERG: To tell you yes, we're far away and we're concerned, is an understatement. Our concern is at an apex.

BROWN (voice-over): It is an important night in the Cleveland home of Aaron and Margie Weinberg. It is Yom Ham Shala (ph), Holocaust Remembrance Day. A traditional Israeli meal is being prepared. The Weinbergs are Israeli-Americans. And they will, as will Jews around the world, stop for a few moments on this night and remember the six million Jews who perished in the concentration camps of Nazi Germany.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As I light this memorial candle, I vow to never forget the lives of the Jewish men, women and children...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You don't think anybody cares.

BROWN: But these days, it is a different war that pains them. They have lived here in the States since '88. They left Israel. They had left friends, but not feelings behind. And they are so worried about Israel. And they are so concerned about the U.S. government.

MARGIE WEINBERG: It's like somebody going to Bush and saying, OK, stop, you know with what you're doing in Afghanistan. It's the same way. Well, stop, I know you didn't get bin Laden, but stop.

BROWN: This is what dinner time has become. Some food, some fear, some politics.

A. WEINBERG: Without a doubt, the Palestinians deserve a state of their own, side by side with Israel. It's the only way. It's the only way for Israel to exist in a modern society.

BROWN: After dinner, the Weinbergs head to their synagogue for a special service, a service to remember the victims of the Holocaust becomes something else, as you would expect, given the moment.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let us pray for the redemption of our people and the land of Israel. Let us never forget the hard, learned lessons of our martyrs in yesteryear and yesterday, as we stand today with them in solidarity, and as we pray for peace tomorrow. CROWD: All we're saying is give peace a chance .

BROWN: Across town, prayer for peace in a different form.

CROWD: It's not war. Peace!

BROWN: Morning brings more of the same.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Channel 12.

BROWN: Here's the Hamad family, Arab-American, living in the country for over three decades. Breakfast means time in front of the TV. A satellite dish provides images directly from their homeland.

AMIN HAMAD: 24 hours a day, you're in the battlefield. You feel like you're there with them.

BROWN: Amin and Iman Hamad have been married since 1984. Their four children attend American schools, wear American clothes. The family enjoys what America has to offer. But in ways not unlike the Weinbergs, the Hamad's hearts live in two places. And one of those places is being destroyed.

IMAN HAMAD: They don't even have bread, let alone food or meat.

A. HAMAD: A lot of shortages.

I. HAMAD: But they show us on TV, you know, just little pieces of bread, a family of six or seven. And they have a couple of pieces of bread. They showed it on TV the other day.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was dry.

I. HAMAD: You know, just a few pieces like that for six persons in the house.

BROWN: It prompts Iman to call her sister in Jenin.

I. HAMAD: It's cut off.

A. HAMAD: The arrival of Ariel Sharon into power, I think, brought a lot of frustration to the Palestinians. And it's very hard to think that they want peace when they bring his coalition, his government that Israeli people want peace.

BROWN: 10-year-old Buyon leaves for school. Time for Amin heads to his store. It is another long day that lies ahead.

A. HAMAD: Seven days a week, from 8:00 until 11:00 at night. American dream. Working hard and hopefully someday, someday you make it, you know?

BROWN: In these two homes, so different in so many ways, it is the similarities that stand out. They both are so weary of it all, so frightened about the future, and so hoping that this madness ends soon. A. HAMAD: We'd love to co-exist. We'd love to live all together in peace. And we'd love to have them recognize the Palestinian's right, the Palestinian children to have to go to school. The Palestinian children to have hopes of work, working and living in good conditions.

A. WEINBERG: All I know is the basic thing that we want. And I know that my Palestinian friends want is peace. We want to be able to live side by side, not inside each others' countries.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: The view from two American homes. Secretary Powell meets with Yasser Arafat early tomorrow morning, East Coast time. CNN coverage throughout the day.

We'll see you tomorrow. From New York, thanks for joining us and good night for NEWSNIGHT.

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