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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Palestinians and Israelis Cautiously Welcome a Proposed Peace Conference; Interview With Spiderman Creator
Aired May 03, 2002 - 21:59 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KATE SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening. It's been quite a week in the Middle East, Israeli forces pulling back from Ramallah. And Yasser Arafat walking out of his compound to cheering crowds. The stand off and the stalemate continued in Bethlehem with flames erupting close to the Church of the Nativity.
And then there was the fact-finding team disbanded by the U.N. It was supposed to look into what happened inside the Jenin Refugee Camp. It's that last question that will likely be the most enduring controversy of the Israeli action in the West Bank. Even if there is an investigation at some point in the future, any attempt to fact find is best done as soon as possible.
So with that in mind, our Sheila MacVicar went out to gather information and voices from both sides and she came back with the kind of report that TV producers love and hate. Love because it's such an impressive effort to report on a complicated story with emotions running so high on both sides, and hate because it came in at more than ten minutes long.
That's an eternity for us in the TV business. We'll show it to you in two parts this evening, and we hope you'll feel the same way we do, that it was worth every minute.
We begin with the whip around the world tonight and the reporters covering the top stories, first to Boston and Gary Tuchman. Several developments in the priest abuse scandal, Gary the headline please.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, the former priest from Massachusetts accused of raping a young child is heading back here very soon. Meanwhile, his archdiocese, the one he used to work for, the Archdiocese of Boston has decided to back down on a financial settlement for victims. Kate.
SNOW: On to the Middle East and Matthew Chance in Ramallah, at the end of a very dramatic week there, Matthew the headline.
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kate, a cautious welcome from both Israeli and Palestinian leaderships to U.S. proposals for a Mideast peace conference sometime in early summer. More violence though in the West Bank, Israeli tanks go into Nablus. Three people, two Palestinians, one Israeli are killed before those forces leave. SNOW: Thank you Matthew. A frightening story out of the Midwest tonight, and the FBI is investigating. Now Kelli Arena is covering that story tonight, Kelli the headline from you.
KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's being called a case of domestic terrorism, and once again, Americans have been attacked while doing what they do every day, opening the mail. But it's not anthrax, this time it's pipe bombs, and the victims live in the heart of America. Kate.
SNOW: Kelli thanks, back with all of you in just a moment. Also coming up on NEWSNIGHT tonight, the real life superhero, the one you won't see crawling up a building this weekend. We'll talk with Stan Lee, the marvel behind "Spiderman." And Gerrick Utley from the super bowl of book selling, where the contact sport is kicking back with a good novel.
We begin though with two big developments in the priest abuse scandal, the first summed up by one powerful image, a priest in jailhouse blue, in court, to begin the process of going back to Boston to face child rape charges.
The second image, a dramatic move that shows just how financially strapped the Boston Archdiocese is, trying to settle dozens of complaints. The finance council of the archdiocese today backed out of one high profile settlement deal over the objections of its own cardinal" once again, Gary Tuchman from Boston.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): He is accused of raping a small child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Shanley has decided to waive any extradition proceedings and proceed back to Middlesex, Massachusetts to take care of this matter.
TUCHMAN: And now, former priest Paul Shanley, who has still not publicly responded to charges against him, will be flown perhaps as early as next week from California to Massachusetts, where he was once a very popular priest. This home video shows a church talent show in the 1980s. The man crooning is Father Paul Shanley.
According to the criminal complaint in the same time period this video was shot, Shanley was allegedly periodically raping Paul Busa.
PAUL BUSA, VICTIM: He used to tell me that nobody would ever believe me, and at six years old, you don't know what he's doing is wrong.
TUCHMAN: Busa is now 24, and this is him as a child in Catholic School, during the time when he says he was being raped in the bathroom, the church rectory, and the confessional by the man in the picture, Father Shanley. Sources close to the case say Busa is the victim in the criminal allegation. BUSA: I know I didn't like it, but he's a priest. He's not going to do anything he's not supposed to.
TUCHMAN: Hundreds of pages of documents from the Archdiocese of Boston indicate officials knew of Shanley's problems for many years, but church officials continued to shuffle him from parish to parish, state to state. And now, Cardinal Bernard Law and his archdiocese have another problem to contend with.
MITCHELL GARABEDIAN, PLAINTIFF'S ATTORNEY: Those who believe that the Cardinal is a despicable human being, now have reason, more reason to believe that he's a despicable human being.
TUCHMAN: The archdiocese has decided to back out of a financial settlement deal. Attorney Mitchell Garabedian represents 86 victims of defrocked priest John Geoghan, who was recently convicted criminally of molesting a child.
On Friday, archdiocese officials voted to renege on an agreement to pay those victims between $15 million and $30 million, officials saying they won't have enough money to pay all the rapidly growing number of victims saying they were molested by priests.
GARABEDIAN: This is a disgrace. Are these people inhuman?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCHMAN (on camera): According to the archdiocese statement today, interestingly enough, Cardinal Bernard Law still wanted to pay the settlement, but he was one of the voters. There were other voters and as it turns out, he was out-voted. However, the cardinal still complimented those who were against him saying: "Their fair and equitable plan will allow healing and reconciliation to continue." Obviously that opinion is not shared by everybody. Kate, back to you.
SNOW: So, Gary, they can now, these people who aren't going to get their settlement, can they now go to court and force a settlement? Is that their next recourse?
TUCHMAN: Well, it's important to point out, Kate, that the church isn't saying it won't pay a settlement. They just won't pay this large of a settlement. So yes, the plaintiff's can go to court. The church is still saying it wants to pay off something, but obviously there's a lot more wrangling to continue on this particular issue and there's a lot of anger to go around.
SNOW: Gary Tuchman tonight, thank you. On now to a case of terrorism on U.S. soil. When you use that phrase these days, it's not hard to think of September 11th, but what happened today in the Midwest calls to mind a different earlier threat. Pipe bombs were found in mailboxes and the note connected to the crime reads like a track straight from Ted Kaczinski (ph) or Timothy McVeigh. Kelli Arena is covering the story for us tonight. Kelli.
ARENA: Kate, six pipe bombs placed in rural mailboxes in Illinois and Iowa exploded this afternoon. Five people have been injured. The notes found with the bombs warned that: "More attention getters were on the way."
LINDA JENSEN, U.S. POSTAL INSPECTOR: The devices are accompanied by a clear plastic bag that contains a typed letter written a typewritten letter full of anti-government propaganda.
ARENA: The letter starts by saying: "Mailboxes are exploding. Why, you ask?" Then it goes on to say: "If the government controls what you want to do, they control what you can do. I'm obtaining your attention in the only way I can. More info is on the way." Now in these very early stages of the investigation, there are absolutely no suspects.
JAMES BOGNER, FBI: We looked at the letter that had accompanied the devices, and are viewing it as a domestic terrorism incident, and there is indication that there may be other devices.
ARENA: Eight bombs have been found so far. Two did not detonate. They were found in communities forming a sort of triangle, along the Mississippi River. The bombs were not delivered by mail carriers, but anonymously placed in mailboxes, and they're described as three- quarter inch steel inch pipes with a nine-volt battery attached. Now according to postal officials, the bombs will not explode when a mailbox is opened, but will if the package is moved. Kate.
SNOW: Kelli, you look at that map that you just had up there. It's sort of spread over those two states. Do they think that more than one person could be involved?
ARENA: They don't know, but they're not ruling that out. There is some consistency because the letter was found with each of those bombs, so they say it could be one person. It could be more than one, and then maybe more to come as you see as part of that letter. It says "more info to follow."
SNOW: Right. OK.
ARENA: So everyone should be aware.
SNOW: Yes, and on that note, you know I'm sure everyone should be aware, but what do we look for' What you know could this happen in other parts of the country and how can people be safe?
ARENA: It?s possible, and so officials are saying if you see anything suspicious in your mailbox, let it be and alert your local law enforcement. They do say that the bombs are just are basically, if you touch them and if you move them, they'll go off, but if you let them be, they won't, and don't slam the mailbox door shut either, because that could also cause it to rattle and set it off as well, but only eight so far, Kate, no more that we've learned of this evening.
SNOW: OK, good news there. Kelli Arena from Washington, thanks.
ARENA: You're welcome.
SNOW: Mailbox bombs are bad enough, but they aren't much sad to say compared to what the people of the Middle East have been living with for a long time now. To CNN's Matthew Chance now in Ramallah, where a bit of fresh air is just beginning to blow away the dust of a long siege.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHANCE (voice over): There's still a mood of victory on the Ramallah streets. These women and children have come out to demonstrate even now, two days after Israel lifted its siege of their president.
But the deal Yasser Arafat struck isn't forgotten. Held high, posters of the assassins wanted by Israel, now under international guard. Opinion is divided here over whether he did the right thing or not.
It hasn't stopped this, the latest Israeli military action, this time in the West Bank town of Nablus. Troops opened fire with tanks and heavy machine guns on Palestinian buildings. Palestinian officials have called it unprovoked aggression. Israelis say there were indications a suicide bombing was being planned. Three people, two Palestinians and one Israeli were killed before these forces withdrew.
In Bethlehem, negotiations to end the month long standoff around the Church of the Nativity here expected to resume at the weekend. Four more Palestinians, one on a stretcher, the others appearing extremely weak, have been let out of the shrine. They're now in Israeli custody. Israel says there are as many as 40 militants here they want tried or cast into exile.
All this as the New York based Human Rights Watch issues a report on Jenin, accusing Israeli forces of nothing less than war crimes during their assault there last month. The report says it found no evidence of a massacre, but calls for an independent inquiry to investigate other possible abuses of international law.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHANCE (on camera): One more positive note, Kate, both sides here the Israelis and the Palestinian leaderships have offered a cautious welcome to U.S. proposals for a Mideast peace conference sometime in early summer. What's not clear at this stage though is whether the two sides can share a vision of peace. Of course, the Palestinians working on the basis, they tell us, of a land-for-peace deal, which would mean Israel dismantling its settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip in exchange for full diplomatic ties with the rest of the world in accordance with the recent Saudi Arabian plan.
Ariel Sharon, the Israeli Prime Minister, has ideas of his own though. He says he offers he's planning to present his peace plan to Washington, to President Bush when he arrives there next week. Kate.
SNOW: Do we know what that peace plan looks like at all, Matthew?
CHANCE: Well, Ariel Sharon says he wants to build, in his words, physical barriers between Israel and areas of the West Bank. Of course, that would involve building walls, ditches, and fences. It also says he's looking for some kind of interim deal whereas the Palestinians, of course, have been looking for some time not for an interim solution but for final status talks on forming a Palestinian State. So still a lot of gap, a lot of differences between the two sides.
SNOW: Matthew Chance reporting tonight from Ramallah, thank you. On now to that stalemate in Bethlehem, this story has grabbed so much attention for the history and symbolism of where the standoff is taking place. Devout Christians have said they cringe when they hear gunfire and see flames near the place where they believe Jesus was born, and this weekend will be especially hard for certain Christians, including some of those holed up inside the Church of the Nativity. For Eastern Orthodox Christians, Sunday is Easter, and today is Good Friday. Walter Rodgers now from Bethlehem.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALTER RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Locked out of the Church of the Nativity by Israeli tanks and kept away by Palestinian gunmen inside that church, Bethlehem's Orthodox Christians had to shop elsewhere for Easter weekend services in a test of faith.
"This is the most important holiday on the Eastern Orthodox calendar. On the cross, Jesus prayed, Father forgive them for they know not what they do." In churches, Palestinians find that forgiveness hard.
RYM AWAD, CHRISTIAN: As a Christian, I'm opposed to that because I'm not having whatever things we are doing in Easter every year, Jerusalem, Nativity Church and everything like that.
RODGERS: Normally, many Palestinian Christians would have gone to Jerusalem's Holy sites this Orthodox Easter weekend. At the very least, they would have gone to Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity. Now the slip into any service they can find.
SHAREEN BASSIL, CHRISTIAN: As you know, our church is surrounded by soldiers and IDF, so we couldn't go there, so it's easier for us to come here to pray.
RODGERS: In this Arabic and Greek mass, they sing: "Lord, you are our savior," but it is a hard sell for Palestinian Christians. There are far more women than men here. Palestinian men are afraid to venture from their homes, according to their women.
There are also terrible cultural frictions. Fundamentalist Jews in the Holy Land and fundamentalist Muslims leave many Christians feeling increasingly isolated and unwelcome.
RODGERS (on camera): The Christian population of the Holy Land is now hemorrhaging like never before. In Israel and the Palestinian territories, less than two percent of the population is now Christian, and one Palestinian estimate suggests 50 percent of those remaining now are planning to leave. RODGERS (voice over): In this Syrian Orthodox Church, Father Yokob (ph) said, Bethlehem caught between Arabs and Jews is the ultimate test of a Christian's faith.
"I pray people's hearts will not become hard. Without love" he said, there can be no peace. That is the real test of Christianity."
The other test faith, and these Palestinian men who did attend Orthodox Easter weekend services say not even gunfire would have kept them away. Walter Rodgers, CNN, Bethlehem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW: As we mentioned, we'll spend a considerable amount of time looking into events at the Jenin Refugee Camp tonight. We'll have the first part of Sheila MacVicar's report in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SNOW: We promised you a compelling story tonight in two parts from Sheila Macvicar, and we're about to show you the beginning of that report on what happened in Jenin in the months during which so much of that place was reduced to rubble.
But we want to make one point first. To put it bluntly, we have no way of ascertaining anymore than Sheila MacVicar herself had any way of ascertaining, whether or not the people who talked to her were telling the truth.
Absent independent verification, and that has been impossible to come by, the statements you're going to hear ought to be taken as charges, allegations awaiting proof if there ever can be proof. We can't keep interrupting to remind you of that, so just bear it in mind. That said, here is Sheila MacVicar on what happened in Jenin.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): It had become intolerable, the horror of suicide bombings day after day. Israelis dying, wounded, a nation terrified, unable to live a normal life.
LIEUTENANT "RON", ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCE RESERVIST: It was very clear to us that the reality we were living in is we can't continue with it.
MACVICAR: Lieutenant Ron is a student and a reservist in the Israeli Defense Forces, called up to serve in Jenin. He contacted us without military permission because he wanted to talk.
RON: None of us had any doubts as for the cost.
MACVICAR: When this round of Israeli military incursions began, it was always clear they would come again to the refugee camp at Jenin. The Israeli government calls it a fortress of terror, the place where 28 suicide bombers in 18 months had received their instructions and sometimes their bombs. At an Israeli prison in an interview offered by Israel's government, Thabet Mardawi openly acknowledged he was a senior member of Islamic Jihad in Jenin. He surrendered there. He admitted planning terrorist bombings and shootings.
THABET MARDAWI, ISLAMIC JIHAD (through translator): I see myself as a fighter trying to restore my rights.
MACVICAR: "The militants in the camp were a small group," he said "armed with guns and homemade bombs."
MARDAWI (through translator): We were about 60 to 70 fighters from those who were in the camp, and then there were maybe another 30 from the Palestinian security forces, about 100 fighters in all.
MACVICAR: They laid booby-traps and gathered their weapons, and the camps, home to 14,000 people and 100, perhaps a few more fighters waited. By April 2nd, the camp was silent, tense, braced. It began on Wednesday, April 3rd at 2:00 a.m. Kamal Tewaldi was hiding in his house with his family.
KAMAL TEWALDI (ph)(through translator): The Israelis stormed the camp from three different sides. They came in with tanks. We could hear them rolling through the streets. There was heavy shooting.
MACVICAR: The Palestinian militants were waiting.
MARDAWI (though translator): We were spread out at the entrances to the camp and all the small alleyways, so when the Israelis came, we would be waiting for them.
MACVICAR: Within two hours, the first casualties were brought into the hospital at the edge of the camp.
DR. MOHAMMED ABU-GHALI, DIRECTOR, JENIN HOSPITAL: At three o'clock fifty, we saw the first victim. She was a nurse, 27 years old, going to his job in the camp. She was died there with just one bullet directly in the heart.
MACVICAR: Dr. Abu-Ghali would spend the next nine days in the hospital or trying to retrieve the wounded and dead. He showed me some of the damage.
ABU-GHALI: Tanks which always arrive from up on the (inaudible).
MACVICAR: Damage done to the hospital by Israeli tank shelling. By first light, Lieutenant Ron and his platoon were making their way on foot down from Antenna Hill.
RON: We still didn't anticipate any resistance. It actually happened very quickly. In the first hour and a half or two hours, literally when we just started to walk in during daylight, my commander was shot dead.
MARDAWI (through translator): I don't know why they brought in soldiers like that. They knew that any soldier who goes into the camp on foot is going to get killed. It baffles me to see a soldier walking in front of me. I've been looking for that for years.
MACVICAR: The Israeli military describes the fighting here, nine days of fighting as the fiercest urban warfare in more than 30 years. Twenty-three Isreali soldiers died, 13 in one single booby-trapped courtyard. Seventy more were injured. To defeat 100 or so fighters, they called in Apache helicopters, tanks and finally the bulldozers.
RON: This was no, I don't know, summer camp. This was an act of war, but this was done in the most sensitive way to human life as possible.
MACVICAR: By now, we all know what it looks like. Israel has been left on the defensive.
COLONEL MIN EISEN, ISRAELI MILITARY INTELLIGENCE: Israel is not here standing and saying whoa, everything hunky dory (ph). Everything's not hunky dory, bad things happened.
MACVICAR: And in briefing after briefing, refuting Palestinian claims made during the attack of a massacre with 500 killed.
EISEN: There was not a massacre period in any way whatsoever.
MACVICAR: After a week in the camp and interviews with dozens of people, New York based Human Rights Watch agrees. There was no massacre here, but its report concludes there were "serious violations of international and humanitarian law." That in some cases it say, "may amount to war crimes."
PETER BOUCKAERT, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: When the Israel army decided to go into the densely populated refugee camp, they had an obligation under international law to take all possible precautions to protect the civilian population during the attack. Clearly, the Israeli army failed to take the necessary precautions during its attack.
CAPTAIN SHARON FEINGOLD, ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCE: We could have done what other people might have done, other nations. That's bomb from the air or go in with the bulldozers right away without risking our soldiers lives.
MACVICAR (on camera): Israeli officials have insisted that almost all of those who died here in the camp here fighters, but Human Rights Watch has documented 52 deaths, a number that they think will be very close to the final total, and of those 52 people killed, they say 21, that's nearly half, were civilians.
MACVICAR (voice over): Human Rights Watch says the deaths of people it has identified as civilians requires thorough and transparent investigation. The Israeli Defense Forces issued a written response to the Human Rights Watch report. It said: "The extent of Israeli casualties and the duration of the combat are proof of the great effort made by the IDF to conduct the operation carefully in an effort to bring to an absolute minimum the number of Palestinian civilian casualties."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW: But the Human Rights Watch report also identifies other practices, which it says put civilians at risk. Sheila MacVicar will have more on that when NEWSNIGHT continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SNOW: We're about to go on to the conclusion of Sheila MacVicar's report on what happened at Jenin, as events there were recounted to her separately by Palestinians and by Israelis. We began by asking you to bear in mind that the claims and counterclaims of the two sides are mostly impossible to independently verify, but there have been efforts to get at the truth.
As you heard earlier in Sheila's report, the organization called Human Rights Watch has said preliminarily that there does not seem to be evidence of what Palestinians have called a massacre in Jenin, but Human Rights Watch also said it has concerns about other possible violations of the rules of war, among them the endangerment of civilians. Back now to Sheila MacVicar in Jenin.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MACVICAR: On the morning of April the 6th, Saturday morning, the fighting was intense. Israeli soldiers in the camp were going door- to-door searching for gunmen and weapons. An Israeli platoon arrived here in this relatively quiet corner of the camp.
MACVICAR (voice over): "An hour after they arrived" says Kamal Tewaldi "Israelis began shooting at his house. There were no fighters there" he says, "just his family." He says he tries to get the Israelis to stop. That's when the house got hit. This is where you and all of your family were here in the house'
TEWALDI (through translator): Yes, we were all downstairs.
MACVICAR: The house was on fire. The family went into the street where the soldiers were.
TEWALDI (through translator): He took me and my 13-year-old boy. They tied our hands with handcuffs and blindfolded us. See, you can still see the marks.
MACVICAR: They were taken to another house in the neighborhood and the boy, Rawad (ph), was taken away.
TEWALDI (through translator): They took him to look through the clothes and belongings of one of the neighbors.
MACVICAR: And they took the 13-year-old boy to do this'
TEWALDI (through translator): Yes, this is his photo.
MACVICAR: We found Rawad Tewaldi in another village, dozens of miles away, staying with family. They say he has been greatly disturbed by what happened. RAWAD TEWALDI (through translator): I was with another kid a year older. We went through the apartments opening up schoolbags and things like that.
MACVICAR: In another corner of the Jenin camp, we found Feisel Abu-Saria (ph), a schoolteacher who says he had also been taken from his house by Israeli soldiers to help search.
FEISEL ABU-SARIA (through translator): The soldier told m to go and knock on the door and tell the people there to move into one room. Then we moved to another house. While we were moving from one house to another, he would hold me by the neck like that. In case we were shot at, he wouldn't be harmed.
MACVICAR: Fasilah Abuseria (ph) says he was held with a neighbor.
ABUSERIA: Abu Riyad, my neighbor, asked the soldier in Hebrew why are you doing this to us' You always say you don't expose civilians to danger. The soldier said you are working for us in order for your friends not to shoot.
MACVICAR: Abuseria (ph) says he was used for three days and two nights, released only when another group of Israeli soldiers shot him in the knee.
ABUSERIA: The soldiers all started shouting at each other. Why did you shoot him' One of them took a bag off his back and tied up my knee.
MACVICAR: In the time that he was held, Abuseria says that on at least one occasion he saw a senior Israeli officer who ordered that he and his neighbor be untied and given food. Human Rights Watch says it has documented many cases of human shields, civilian explosive detectors being used by the Israelis in the camp.
PETER BOUCKAERT, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: It's absolutely outlawed under the Geneva Conventions and the laws of war. It's one of the prohibited practices the army should never engage in.
MACVICAR: The Israeli defense forces initially and forcefully denied all use of human shields.
SHARON FEINGOLD, CAPTAIN, ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCE: Its foundless. It's baseless. It's something which we don't do and will never do.
MACVICAR: On Thursday, the IDF said it had conducted an investigation and acknowledged one case.
MIRI EISEN, COLONEL, ISRAELI MILITARY INTELLIGENCE: A woman came out of a house and she was requested to go back into her own house tomorrow say, to announce, to call out for the other people to come out. That is the only instance that we know of what's called a human shield.
MACVICAR: Human Rights Watch had also documented the practice in earlier Israeli military incursions. We asked Lieutenant Ron, the IDF reservist, about it.
Was there ever a circumstances where you used Palestinians to open doors'
RON, LT., ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCE RESERVIST: Not us specifically, but this was certainly a method that was acceptable. I don't think there's anything wrong with it.
MACVICAR: Did your commanders tell that you that was acceptable?
RON: Yes. I, as a commander, felt that this was acceptable. You have to remember that the cause was -- the goal was to search the house for explosives and weapons. Since most of the apartments were deserted, if you found an apartment that had people inside, yes, you would take one of the family members.
MACVICAR: Let's go back to the Kamal Tuwalbi's neighborhood and the afternoon of Saturday, April 6, where people told us not only were some of them asked to search for explosives, they say they were taken, handcuffed and blindfolded and used by a group of Israeli soldiers as protection against Palestinian gunmen.
Kamal Tuwalbi.
KAMAL TEROBI: (through translator) They put each of us next to a window. The soldiers put the gun on my shoulder. We couldn't count the bullets. It was hellish.
MACVICAR: He took us around the corner to show us the house. It was that window there? That window there? Interviewed separately, Jihad Hanoon (ph).
JIHAD HANOON (ph): (through translator) They lined us up near the window, so that if someone fired at them we would be a human shield. They kept us here and fired from above our heads and shot from behind.
MACVICAR: It was the same window. The 13-year-old boy Rahwad (ph) found in another village.
RAHWAD (ph): (through translator) We were standing up, our hands tied behind our backs. The soldier put the rifle here while he was hiding behind me.
MACVICAR: Ehad Gorabia (ph).
EHAD GORABIA: (through translator) They made us go up to the third floor and they started hiding behind us and shooting.
MACVICAR: Which window did they take you to? That window? That window? On Saturday afternoon?
BOUCKAERT: Its just a fundamental violation of the laws of war. The failure of the IDF to investigate and prosecute persons who engage in these kind of practices basically gives carte blanche to soldiers to violate the laws of war during military operation. FEINGOLD: I think I have answered the question extensively. It's a question of I don't know exactly if you want your own answer then say your own answer. I've been very clear. We are not talking about a playground.
MACVICAR: It is clear what finally ended the fighting by the end concentrated in the center of the camp was the bulldozers. Thabet Mardawi the now jailed Islamic Jihad leader told us he had intended to fight until death as long as there was a target he could still shoot at.
THABET MARDAWI, ISLAMIC JIHAD: (through translator) When finally I was standing in front of the bulldozer, no soldiers, no tanks, me with just a gun, there was nothing else to do. Surrender or be buried under the rubble.
MACVICAR: Israel has justified its actions here by focusing on the terrorists and the militants. The suicide bombings they say they averted. The explosives seized. And by talking about their own casualties, the 23 dead Israelis. There is no need for any investigation, they say. an FEINGOLD: We're talking about a terrorist camp at the center of a refugee camp. And maybe we should address the fact that at the center of a refugee camp, 100 or so terrorists built a booby trap minefield, and not about the other issues.
MACVICAR: Human Rights Watch had sharp criticism of the Palestinians, too. Echoing this spokesperson for the IDF saying Palestinian gunmen endangered civilians in the camp by using it as a base for planning and launching suicide attacks, and mingling with the civilian population to avoid apprehension. A tactic the Israelis describe as using civilians as human shields.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW: Sheila MacVicar reporting tonight. When NEWSNIGHT continues, we will talk with Sheila MacVicar a little bit more about that report. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SNOW: I'm joined now by CNN's Sheila MacVicar, whose extraordinary reporting we've all just seen. I know you've been awake for a very long time, Sheila. We really appreciate you staying up long enough to talk about this a little bit more right now. Your report really was extraordinary. Especially given the difficulties of reporting in the part of the world where you are, where reality, as we know, is often kind of hard to pin down.
I wonder how did get all of those interviews? You heard from so many voices in that piece. How did you gather up those voices? That information?
MACVICAR: Over the course of the last number of days, I've asked -- the last week or so, I've actually spent a number of days in the camp, sometimes returning back to Jerusalem, where I'm based at the moment. And sometimes actually staying up in Northern Israel and going back into the camp early in the morning.
So we had an opportunity to meet and talk with a number of people. One of the people that we met and talked with there was a Human Rights Watch researcher, who facilitated our work. As you know, the camp, although it's home to 14,000 people, it's a relatively small community in that sense. People know everyone else. And as people learn what happens to their neighbor, these stories get circulated around the camp.
It's equally true that you often hear stories from people who say you know, my neighbor saw such and such. You go find the neighbor, and the neighbor says, "Well, no, I didn't see that. I heard it." It's sort of like playing telephone.
SNOW: Here's the tough question, Sheila. And a lot of viewers probably wonder this. How do you, as a reporter, decipher what you can believe when there are so many competing versions of the truth?
MACVICAR: That's a good question. And this certainly is, in this instance, given the Palestinian claims of a massacre with perhaps as many as 500 killed, there is a good reason to question credibility and to question whether or not you're being used if you're some part of propaganda campaign.
In these instances, first, we know that there have been previous reporting about the IDF's activities, which has been very similar in other locations. Weve had similar stories from other places. When we went to Jenin, and we began finding these people, they had a number of things in common. We interviewed them separately. They didn't know what one person told us. In other words, they weren't all together in a group.
They took us to the same place. And many of them showed physical symptoms of what would have been the result of standing for some time and having a rifle barrel firing over their shoulder. They told us about temporary deafness. They told us about bruising that they had had on their shoulder. And in some cases, we saw medical reports.
SNOW: There were, to be fair, I think more Palestinian voices in this story than Israeli voices. You had that one Israeli soldier, who I guess sought us out, came to CNN. But I wonder why is that? Does the Israeli military not allow their soldiers who are also there, who also witnessed this, to talk to us?
MACVICAR: Well, there's a couple of things going on. Obviously, there's been this whole thing with the U.N. fact finding commission. And Israel and the Israeli military are kind of in a bit of a deep freeze in the moment, where theyve been talking about the specter of war crimes investigations, and a fear that the U.N. fact finding commission could in fact eventually lead to war crimes investigations.
Now whether that's a real fear or not is for other investigators to determine. But because of that, the IDF has decided that it wants to protect its soldiers and that those soldiers were available earlier for interviews. As information began to come out of the camp, they became much less easy to find.
We spoke to the young man we called Lieutenant Ron. There have been other IDF reservists who have spoken to other news organizations, who in large measure have said precisely what he said, that the use of Palestinians as either civilian explosives searchers or as human shields was in their view an acceptable practice. So this is something we've heard not only from him, but from others.
SNOW: And tell us a little bit more, Sheila, about Lieutenant Ron. Why did he come forward if he didn't have the sanction of his own military higher ups? Did he just want to tell his story? Or how did he approach you?
MACVICAR: Well, you have to remember one thing about Israeli reservists. When they take the uniform off, they become Israeli civilians. And we all know, this is very voluble and very open democracy, where people have the right to say what they think, and the right to speak about anything that they choose to speak about, as long as it's not covered by rules of official secrecy.
Reservists service is not covered by rules of official secrecy. I think he wanted to say a number of things. One of the things that he wanted to get across to me was that, you know, he is a young Israeli in his 20's, a student. And he was having a hard time comprehending some of the stories that came out of Jenin. He had been in a very difficult place, had gone through what was clearly very difficult fighting, lost his commander, saw other members of his brigade die, and then was confronted with dealing with the stories first of the massacres, and then other things that were coming out.
I think what he wanted to say was that, you know, from his point of view, it was -- from his point of view and the point of view of others, what they did in Jenin was something that they felt that they had to do. As he kept saying over and over, the cause was just.
SNOW: Sheila MacVicar joining us from Jerusalem. Morning, her time. And Sheila, I mean it when I say thank you for staying up all night with us.
MACVICAR: Youre welcome.
SNOW: Later on NEWSNIGHT, what does it take to write a bestseller? Well have some expert advice. And next, well meet the man behind Spiderman.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SNOW: Consider this resume. Male. Teenaged. Orphaned. Strapped for cash. Scores a little low on the self-confidence and self-esteem scales and doesn't score at all with the girls. If you were an employment counselor, what field would you steer this kid toward? How about a job walking up walls and fighting villains? Oh sure you say, as if you could make a super hero out of a sad sack like that. Well, maybe you couldn't, but a writer named Stan Lee did 40 years ago.
And Spiderman still is going strong, if strong is the right word to use about a vulnerable and insecure, young super hero.
We're joined now in Los Angeles by the man whose brainchild will be crawling all over 3,600 movie screens this weekend.
Welcome to you, Stan Lee. Thanks for being with us.
STAN LEE, SPIDERMAN CREATOR: Thank you, Kate.
SNOW: Oh, you're welcome. Is it a true story? Here's what they say that you saw a fly on your wall back in 1962 and Spiderman was born?
LEE: You know I've been saying it so often, for all I know it might be true.
SNOW: But you did come up with it?
LEE: Yes, yes, I did. And the funniest thing was trying get a name for him. I didn't know Insectman didn't sound so good. Mosquitoman didn't have the flavor. But then Spiderman sounded nice and mysterious and dramatic to me.
SNOW: Yes, something about that works. What is it about him, about Spiderman or as you call him Spidey, that you think has worked all these years that still endures?
LEE: Well, there are so many things. You know one of the things was what you just mentioned. I don't think anybody had nicknames for heroes before that. I love nicknames. And I just couldn't call him Spiderman all the time. And somehow calling him Spidey, I think it generates a little bit of warmth on the part of the reader.
Another thing of course, he's the most introverted hero of all. He's always got these self doubts and these thoughts. And we were the first company in our script to use thought balloons above his head in great abundance in almost every panel he was thinking something. And when you see somebody's thoughts, you get to know him so much better. I think that contributed a lot, too.
SNOW: And he's a teenager, after all. I mean, we just went through his background. He's sort of this awkward, clumsy teenager with all the problems that a teenager has. Do you think that was a big selling point to your audience?
LEE: Probably one of the biggest. I think he was very empathetic. Most of the young readers could identify with him because he had all the hang ups that they did, and that I used to have when I was a kid. I mean in a story, I'd have him have his costume tear or he'd get an allergy attack. He'd be worried about acne or dandruff or an ingrown toenail, anything.
SNOW: You wrote in "The New York Times" this morning, you wrote an op ed about Spiderman, which I thought was really interesting. One of the things you mentioned was the costume which we were just looking at. It covers his whole body...
LEE: Right.
SNOW: And you said that that means something. Why does that matter?
LEE: Actually, we didn't do it purposely. It was just a very fortuitous happenstance. The fact that he's all covered means that any youngster or oldster of any race could imagine that it could be me under that costume. And I feel that made Spiderman so accessible throughout the world, to everybody.
SNOW: Yes. Superman gets a whole lot more press, doesn't he? Superman.
LEE: Well, he used to.
SNOW: Well, he used to. Maybe not this weekend. But Superman is sort of this, you know, moralistic goody two shoes almost. It seems to me like Spiderman is a little bit more real.
LEE: Well, I don't want to knock Superman. He was the first. And he was really great. But Spiderman, I think, was more in the modern idiom, because he's not 100 percent sure of himself. He's not always 100 percent right. He makes mistakes and so forth. And again, I think that makes it easy for a reader to identify with him. And of course, that makes readers like him.
SNOW: I know you were part of making this movie. I don't want to talk too much about the movie. But I know were you part of it. And I'm guessing that you like it, the final product?
LEE: I love it. I mean, I just thought it was great.
SNOW: How true is it to your original idea and to the comic book?
LEE: It's very true because the original idea was a typical kid, who gets a super power and finds it's as much of a curse as a blessing. And he finds it doesn't really make his life any easier or happier. It's just another dimension of his life. And I think the movie brought that out beautifully.
SNOW: Stan Lee, a pleasure having you on tonight. Appreciate it. We'll look --
LEE: Loved every minute of it.
SNOW: We'll look for Spiderman out there. Thanks.
LEE: Thank you.
SNOW: Next on NEWSNIGHT, Segment 7 and the book on books.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SNOW: Finally from us, you probably know how the expression goes, if a tree falls in the forest. You can apply it to this story in this way. If a book is written and no one reads it, did it ever really exist? The answer is moss definitely yes. At least for some of the struggling authors that our Garrick Utley met at Book Expo America.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GARRICK UTLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (Voice-over): Don't feel sorry for Michael Hooley when just about everyone walks by his stand as he tries to get attention, any attention for the book he and his wife have written.
MICHAEL HOOLEY: It's based on the life of my wife's great great grandfather who, was a Texas Ranger before the Civil War.
UTLEY: And will readers want to pay to read about Mike's wife's great, great grandfather?
HOOLEY: I have no big ambitions of being the next Tom Clancy or anything like that. But you know, this is a really interesting story.
UTLEY (on camera): Of course, that's what you hear at every stand at Book Expo America, the Superbowl of book selling. Step into this book bazaar, and you have to ask yourself the question, what is the future of print on paper in an age of TV, CDs, DVDs, video games and cinema multiplexes? Well, amid all the hope and hype going on here, is that human urge of an individual, an author, to tell a story.
(voice-over): And the inescapeable fear that perhaps no one will want to read your story. Elizabeth Stone is one of the lucky ones, an established, published author. This is your second book?
ELIZABETH STONE: My third.
UTLEY: Third?
STONE: Yes. Nobody reads them, so it's quite all right.
UTLEY: But somebody is reading books. Nearly 2,400,000,000 of them will be sold in the United States this year. Novels, mysteries, religious books. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get your free copy of the holy Koran right here.
UTLEY: Cookbooks.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We had a hard time selecting which recipe we should choose.
UTLEY: And of course, books telling you how to succeed. Be more beautiful, and feel better about yourself. Clearly, there is more to the stress of the book business than the solitary suffering writer searching for a memorable story line. You have to get attention any way you can. What is it about books that still attracts us?
JANE FRIEDMAN, CEO, HARPER COLLINS: There's comfort in books. There's education in books comradery in books and that question do we have the time to read these books. Take this book, master of the senate. Master work of 1140 pages and yet, it's headed for the bestseller list.
(voice-over: Which brings us back to Mike Hooley, who's not thinking of any bestseller list.
MIKE HOOLEY: We've gone to different places and sold three books on the weekend and everything. And that gets a little frustrating.
UTLEY: So why does he do it? Perhaps for the satisfaction of knowing that long after he and his wife are gone, their book, their story will be there sitting on someone's shelf.
Gary Utley, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW: It's been a real pleasure being here the last couple of nights. Aaron Brown will be back with you on Monday. I'm Kate Snow in New York. Good night.
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