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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

NYPD Issues Terror Threats; What Did Bush Administration Know?

Aired May 21, 2002 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again. I'm Aaron Brown.

The American Medical Association is recommending doctors rountinely now screen their patients for depression. Today seems like a good day to start that. I find myself missing the good old days of the Cold War. The good old days of fallout shelters and instructions to school children to duck and cover. Ahhh, nostalgia.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): These are beginning to look like the good old days. Civil defense drills, kids diving under their desks, suburban householders building bunkers and laying in supplies of canned food. And of course, considering whether they'd allow their neighbors to join them.

The weapons were futuristic, but the threat was old-fashioned -- an enemy nation which had an army and sailed ships and flew airplanes. All of them -- the soldiers, the ships, the planes -- all clearly marked with a visible symbol.

Remember the Red Star.

Whatever was going to happen, they wouldn't be sneaking up on us. We had radar. We could see them coming. And we had the Strategic Air Command with which we could respond.

And there was the famous hot line phone right on the president's desk, direct to the Kremlin to Khrushchev or Brezhnev, to whoever, no dialing necessary. The leaders could talk to keep push from coming to shove.

And besides, if the bad guys lobbed one at us, we'd just lob one right back. Mutually assured destruction, it was called. It was insane, I suppose. But it worked.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED CARTOON CHARACTER: What are you supposed to do when you see the flash?

CHILDREN: Duck and cover!

(END VIDEO CLIP) (END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (on camera): Seems almost idyllic now, doesn't it?

To our kids the word bomber means not a warplane, but a human being rigged with explosives. And the enemy, our kids think, comes not in a marching uniformed battalion, but unidentifiably -- one or two or three ordinary-looking people at a time.

For decades there, we knew -- or we thought we knew -- where the trouble would be coming from. On days when helicopters circled the Statue of Liberty, when a city that suffered too much worries about suffering yet again, you can find yourself missing the good old days.

Maybe it's not depression after all.

On to the Whip we go. The threats and the warnings coming too fast to process lately.

First, New York -- what it is, how serious it is, what to make of this latest warning.

Deborah Feyerick has been trying to sort it out, so Deborah, start us off with a headline, please.

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, new details, new threats, everyone on high alert. Will there be another attack? And if so, when?

BROWN: Thank you, Deborah. Back to you shortly.

From the specific to the general -- no less unsettling. The words came from the Secretary of Defense today. Jamie McIntyre covering that from the Pentagon. Jamie, your headline.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, even when the intelligence is somewhat dubious, as is the case with the New York warnings, the Bush administration is erring on the side of notification.

And today, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, the latest administration to talk about the inevitability of something awful happening sooner or later -- Aaron.

BROWN: Jamie, good to see you again.

Terror now from another era -- the Birmingham church bombing of 1963. Gary Tuchman has been following the case. Gary, your headline tonight.

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Bobby Cherry was a member of the Ku Klux Klan. But did he murder four young African- American girls in 1963? A jury now has the case almost 39 years later.

BROWN: Gary, thank you. We are back with all of you in a moment or so.

Also coming up on the program tonight, the strange tale of two Pauls -- Paul O'Neill, the Treasury Secretary, and Paul Hewson, known these days as Bono, the rock star. An odd couple indeed traveling in close quarters on their mission to Africa, and we'll hear a bit from both a little bit later.

And the image that's as powerful now as it was 59 years ago on the cover of the "Saturday Evening Post" -- Rosie the Riveter. The painting's up for sale. Garrick Utley has the story and the story behind it.

All of that in the hour ahead.

So there are old wars and cold wars, and we begin with a new war of unseen enemies and hard-to-evaluate threats.

We remember back on the 11th of September looking south toward where the twin towers once stood, and then on to New York Harbor and seeing the Statute of Liberty, seeing it differently that night.

We went back on the roof tonight and looked again and wondered. The FBI says the statue may now be a terrorist target.

The warning comes with plenty of disclaimers, unsubstantiated, uncorroborated. Perhaps there is a real plan. Maybe these guys are just jerking us around. Either way it works.

People get nervous. Jets get scrambled. Normal gets postponed -- again.

CNN's Deborah Feyerick begins our coverage.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FEYERICK: The Brooklyn Bridge and Statue of Liberty -- American symbols. Now sources say, possible terrorist targets.

The FBI alerting New York's joint terrorist task force of new information. City landmarks may be at risk.

Also warning the public in a statement that the United States government has received unsubstantiated and uncorroborated information that terrorists are considering attacks against landmarks in New York City.

The FBI has few other details -- no time, no date, no idea how such an attack would be carried out. It's America's new reality in the war against terrorists.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: We're in the game. We were in the game before 9/11. And a lot of people didn't realize we were in the game.

And in this game, they're playing for keeps. FEYERICK: Security in New York City already tight after 9/11 now even tighter. Police who never comment on counter-terrorism operations saying ...

RAY KELLY, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: Certainly after 9/11, anything is possible. But I think we are doing the best that we reasonably can do to prevent another incident and to respond if, God forbid, there is one.

FEYERICK: Traffic at many New York bridges slowed by police checkpoints.

And though tourists can travel to Liberty Island, the statue itself remains shut following the September attacks.

With the holiday coming up and 22 ships expected in New York Harbor for Fleet Week, officials are urging people to carry on as they usually do and not blow the warnings out of proportion.

GEORGE PATAKI, GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK: We're going to have threats for the foreseeable future. And we just have to have confidence that the federal officials working with the state officials and local officials and an alert system are capable of responding and preventing, and making sure that we don't give in to the fear.

FEYERICK: Earlier, information on possible targets has come from al Qaeda detainees in custody on Guantanamo Bay and in Afghanistan, where hundreds of documents have also been seized and are being analyzed.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

Both the FBI and New York City police downplay any possible attack. No one knows when or even if anything will happen.

But in this period of full disclosure, everyone seems to be on the short list getting whatever information is available -- Aaron.

BROWN: And having to process it as best they can.

FEYERICK: Absolutely.

BROWN: Deborah, thank you. And it's been a long day for you.

We're joined now from Philadelphia by John Timoney, former police commissioner there, former first deputy commissioner in New York City, now the CEO of a private security firm.

It's nice to see you again, sir.

JOHN TIMONEY, FORMER FIRST DEPUTY COMMISSIONER, NEW YORK CITY POLICE DEPARTMENT: Aaron, good to see you.

BROWN: Well, what do you make of this? Should we close down the Brooklyn Bridge? Close down the Statue of Liberty and play this on the safe side? TIMONEY: No, I don't think you have to do that right now. I think what Commissioner Kelly did this afternoon, of actually just warning people, putting out an alert, not a full terrorist alert, but informing folks of what they've received yesterday afternoon from the FBI, information coming out of Guantanamo Bay, again, unsubstantiated, uncorroborated.

However, a little specific in that it picked out the Brooklyn Bridge, you know, the Statue of Liberty, around the Memorial Day weekend. And there's a tendency for these terrorists, we know, to pick, you know, localities or situations that have symbolic meaning along with, you know, the possibility to do something of a high body count.

BROWN: Yeah.

TIMONEY: So those two present that -- that's an (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Commissioner Kelly, and he's reacting to that.

BROWN: Well, I appreciate that, and I don't honestly intend to be argumentative here.

TIMONEY: Yeah.

BROWN: If we're going to say to people, you have this warning, ...

TIMONEY: Yeah.

BROWN: ... why not take it -- it's not that big a step, and it's not that huge a deal to say, and just to be on the safe side, we're going to shut down the Statue of Liberty for a few days until we get a really good handle on this.

TIMONEY: Well, my understanding is the Statue of Liberty has been shut down ...

BROWN: Well, without the island.

TIMONEY: I see, OK, yeah. Well, again, the issue is, do you -- and I think Mayor Bloomberg addressed this yesterday -- you now, you have this balancing situation where you're trying to live life as normal as possible, but be on a high state of alert.

You can't close up shop, stop doing regular business, you know, and let the terrorists win really without firing a shot -- Bloomberg's words and I agree with him.

And so, I know often it seems contradictory. Sometimes it looks like law enforcement is being whipsawed by folks in the press and politicians. Maybe a reaction or an overreaction to the so-called Phoenix memo.

I guess all of that comes into play. But the bottom line is, Commissioner Kelly is faced with information that he receives yesterday evening. Should I notify the public, or not notify the public?

BROWN: That's right.

TIMONEY: Well, you're better off notifying the public, again, not changing drastically, you know, daily actions, if you will, daily -- particularly coming up on the holiday weekend -- daily commuting traffic.

However, let the people know. Listen, we have this information. Expect traffic jams. Expect people who are going across the Brooklyn Bridge -- and other tunnels, by the way ...

BROWN: Yeah.

TIMONEY: ... to be stopped and checked.

BROWN: John, I'm curious.

TIMONEY: Yeah.

BROWN: Do you think that some of this is, in fact -- that's the Brooklyn Bridge we're looking at.

TIMONEY: Yeah.

BROWN: Do you think that some of this maybe is a reaction to the Phoenix memo and the August briefing that, in light of those revelations, the government is just spitting out every possible warning that comes across the transom?

TIMONEY: Yeah, you know, Michael Cramer from the "New York Daily News" kind of pointed that out today. He said all of this was CYA.

I think there may be some of that. But I also think there's genuine -- there's a genuine concern, because if you listened to Dick Cheney over the weekend and Bob Mueller yesterday, clearly this is going to happen again. It's not if, it's when.

And if you look at the MO of these terrorists over the last decade, it's the hit, 1993, lay low for a year, year-and-a-half, hit, the USS Cole, the embassies, lay low.

And my sense is that we keep thinking of September 11th. You know, it's almost nine months now.

BROWN: Yeah.

TIMONEY: Pretty soon we'll be on a year, and as we move further away there's two things that happen.

One, people become complacent, as do law enforcement. But the further you get away, the closer you get to the next incident.

And I think it behooves people not to become complacent. It behooves law enforcement to constantly gear it up. There's going to be a slackening off.

But these warnings that come out every once in a while, a lot of people make fun, they ridicule them. They've ridiculed Tom Ridge for the color-coded warnings he comes out with, right.

When I was in law enforcement, I was in the Philippine police commissioner's office, I welcomed those, because it reminds people. Every once in a while, listen. Don't take your eye off the target.

BROWN: Yeah.

TIMONEY: Stay focused.

BROWN: It's a kind of damned if you do, and damned if you don't. I mean, on the one hand, if you don't warn people and something does happen ...

TIMONEY: Yeah.

BROWN: Then we go through what we're going through these days ...

TIMONEY: Exactly.

BROWN: ... on Phoenix ...

TIMONEY: Exactly.

BROWN: ... and the rest.

Let me ask you one final quick question ...

TIMONEY: Sure.

BROWN: ... about half a minute, John. I heard the Governor say, don't blow this thing out of proportion.

I'm trying to figure out exactly what that means. Does that mean go on with my business as normal, and don't fret too terribly much. Is that how you want me react here?

TIMONEY: I think for example, if you lived in Brooklyn Heights, ...

BROWN: Yeah.

TIMONEY: ... and you intended to cross Manhattan to go over to Jersey to take the turnpike south for the Jersey shore, then do that. But expect delays of over an hour, upwards of an hour going across the Brooklyn Bridge.

Or, if you're really nervous, take the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel or the 59th Street Bridge or the Williamsburg Bridge. Use alternative routes.

But I think in fairness -- and I think Commissioner Kelly made the right call in letting folks know. Listen, we have this information. Here's what we have and this is what it's worth. It's uncorroborated, it's unsupported.

However, it is specific regards to at least two locations -- the Brooklyn Bridge, Staten Island -- I'm sorry, the Statute of Liberty.

BROWN: The Statue of Liberty.

TIMONEY: Yeah.

BROWN: John, it's good to see you. You haven't been ...

TIMONEY: Aaron, good seeing you.

BROWN: ... you haven't been away from the city that long to confuse the two.

John Timoney, it's nice to see you from Philadelphia ...

TIMONEY: Thanks, Aaron.

BROWN: ... tonight.

It has seemed that since the story of the President's August briefing on a possible terrorist plan broken in the Phoenix memo and the rest, everyone but the White House stewards have been issuing terrorist warnings.

Vice President on Sunday, the FBI director yesterday. Today it was the Secretary of Defense, and he was not alone.

Here again, CNN's Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: Even though the latest terrorist threats are based on unsubstantiated intelligence, Bush administration officials continue to issue ominous warnings.

DONALD RUMSFELD, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Terrorist networks have relationship with terrorist states that have weapons of mass destruction. And that they inevitably are going to get their hands on them. And they would not hesitate one minute in using them.

MCINTYRE: This week officials have warned about everything from Palestinian-style suicide bombings to the possibility al Qaeda might rent apartments to blow them up.

But the national terrorism alert status remains in the yellow, or elevated, because all of the intelligence is vague.

TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY DIRECTOR: And when we get specific information with regard to a terrorist threat we will share it. It may not be actionable.

And again, this is a very difficult environment for Americans to accept.

MCINTYRE: One problem is, there are hundreds of nightmare scenarios for which the U.S. is unprepared.

SEN. HERB KOHL (D), WISCONSIN: No security whatsoever takes place on chartered aircraft, which would allow a terrorist to charter a large aircraft, board with his friends, carry on luggage with explosives and use that aircraft as a weapon against innocent civilians exactly as what happened on 9/11.

MCINTYRE: But even as security is tightened, administration officials continue to warn it will never be enough.

RUMSFELD: And it is physically impossible to defend at every time in every place against every conceivable technique. There is no way to do it.

MCINTYRE: The White House insists the recent spate of official warnings is not intended to deflect criticism of the handling of pre- September 11th intelligence.

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: There has been a recent increase in the chatter that we've heard in the system. And that was reflected in what they've said.

So I think they're doing their level best to answer questions that people have.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (on camera): Now, Aaron, one administration official did concede to me that some of what's being said is in fact to inoculate the administration against any suggestion in the future that they weren't forthcoming with information.

But I have to tell you that Defense Secretary Rumsfeld's testimony today -- and I listened to all of it -- is nothing that he hasn't said many times in the past about the danger of countries getting weapons of mass destructions and the inability of the U.S. to really defend against terrorism.

That's why he says the U.S. has to take the fight to the terrorists as it's doing in Afghanistan.

BROWN: Jamie, let me suggest that both things might be true here. I mean, no one expects the President's spokesman to stand in the podium and say, well, yes, of course we're reacting to the fact we're getting hammered on this other thing.

But that -- I agree that Secretary Rumsfeld has said similar things a lot. And in fact the Vice President has said things quite similar to what he said on Sunday, often.

It is the pattern of day after day that I think makes people wonder if they aren't a little sensitive to the criticism they've been getting. MCINTYRE: Oh, I think they are. And, as I said, one administration official admitted that some of this was -- to use the term of your earlier guest -- a CYA. That was the term this person used.

But they are sensitive to the fact that they were criticized. And the danger, of course, is that when you start issuing too many warnings, that people just pay no attention to them at all, make no -- don't know what to do in terms of changing what they do in their life.

So there's a danger both ways. But the administration says that at the moment, especially because of the criticism, they're going to err on the side of giving out the information and let people process it as they may.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you. And thank you for enduring one of the longest questions ever asked in the history of our business.

Thank you.

I have this feeling half the audience is trying to figure out what CYA means now.

Next on NEWSNIGHT, the FBI agent who wrote the memo warning about terrorists, learning how to fly, goes to Washington to brief members of Congress.

This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Someday I am certain of this, we will all see the entire memo written by the FBI agent in Phoenix, the memo that apparently forewarned the bureau of the possibility of a September 11th type attack -- not the specifics, but the possibility.

We don't have it yet, not all of it at least. It is classified and it is embarrassing. And neither is a good prescription for public release.

But it will happen. It always does.

The agent who wrote it and his boss were on Capitol Hill today, in secret, talking about it. So we settle tonight for second-hand accounts.

Here's CNN's Kelli Arena.

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Accompanied by FBI Director Robert Mueller, FBI Agent Kenneth Williams, author of the now-famous Phoenix memo, came to Capitol Hill to provide context for Senators who are upset they weren't told about it earlier.

SEN. CHARLES GRASSLEY (R), IOWA: One thing that's pretty clear to me is that prior to 9/11, the FBI information process regarding counter-terrorism was a mess. And even to this day, no one seems to know who knew what, why or where these critical information went at FBI headquarters.

ARENA: Now that memo, parts of which remain classified, was read by a reporter at CNN's sister publication, "Fortune" magazine.

It clearly raised the issue about whether al Qaeda was sending terrorists to U.S. flight schools, saying that, "Osama's efforts to send students to U.S. to attend civil aviation universities and colleges."

The memo talks about a probe beginning in 2000. It was sent to two FBI terrorism task forces at headquarters, and to the New York field office last summer, but no action was taken.

Members of Congress were calling for the memo's public release, knowing parts may have to be redacted to protect an ongoing investigation.

REP. PORTER GOSS (R-FL), CHAIRMAN, HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: My view is that we should throw it out the door and let the American public see it in some kind of an organized fashion.

ARENA: Some lawmakers are peeved that both the FBI director and Attorney General knew about the Phoenix investigation for months, but did not share that information with Congress.

Members of a joint committee investigating 9/11 met with the Attorney General to tell him they want more cooperation.

SENATOR RICHARD SHELBY (R-AL), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: We made perfectly clear to the administration, that to do this investigation, we had to have their cooperation.

Now, we've had a good meeting today, but the proof of cooperation will come as the investigation unfolds.

ARENA: But top Democrats are not willing to wait and see, and are calling for an independent commission to investigate how and why clues may have been missed before 9/11.

SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MAJORITY LEADER: There is a troubling trend that is now underway with regard to the administration's unwillingness to share information within the bureaus and the agencies of this White House and of the administration itself, as well as with Congress regarding the attack of September 11th.

ARENA: The White House and Congressional Republicans are opposed to an independent review, insisting a Congressional review is the best way to safeguard the highly classified material that's involved.

Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We're joined from Washington tonight by a member of the Judiciary Committee, Jeff Sessions, Republican Senator from the State of Alabama.

Senator, nice to see you again.

SEN. JEFF SESSIONS (R-AL), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Aaron, good to be with you.

BROWN: Sir, tell me, what was the main thing that you learned about that memo today?

SESSIONS: Well, I was very impressed with Agent Williams and his ability to intuit or figure out that something was unusual going on here, and that he had the intelligence and will to put it on paper and send it forward.

I think that was a very good insight. He didn't have it all figured out, exactly what happened. But he knew something was afoot there in Arizona that he was seeing. And he was concerned about it.

He sent that forward and the system just gobbled it up and ...

BROWN: But Senator, you knew that ...

SESSIONS: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE) did nothing about it.

BROWN: ... I'm sorry, you knew that last week, though, didn't you? That ...

SESSIONS: Oh, I ...

BROWN: ... the agent basically had this, had a kind of interesting outline here, and that it got gobbled up.

So what was it today -- what made today important?

SESSIONS: I don't know that -- I think today was simply important because the members of the committee -- the Judiciary Committee -- got to see the memo except for the redacted small parts of it.

They were able to ask questions, all that they wanted to. Actually, Mueller and Agent Williams stayed there until the last Senator left.

They answered every question for over two hours, and it was a good exchange. And I think that helped a lot.

BROWN: What did you ask them?

SESSIONS: Well, I asked and pointed out my concern as a former federal prosecutor, I know that FBI agents think right up the line to their bosses in Washington, and that they send things forward, but there's not enough exchange between CIA or Defense or these other agencies that are gathering intelligence.

We're very bureaucratically oriented too often. And so, I emphasized and asked some questions to deal with that. Mueller indicated absolutely that he has completely altered the way the system worked.

You know, he had only been FBI director seven days when this attack occurred. He has completely altered the way things occur. Every report of this kind will now immediately go to a national center at FBI, staffed by FBI agents and CIA analysts.

They'll have a computer system to check and recheck, and see if they can identify any patterns around the country.

I am very impressed with Bob Mueller.

BROWN: And at -- risking sounding even more cynical than I perhaps sometimes do here, in one way or another I have heard this sort of thing about law enforcement agencies sharing information I'll bet a dozen times in my professional life.

And if it happens, it seems to happen for about an hour-and-a- half, and then everyone forgets it.

Why is this different?

SESSIONS: Well, as a professional prosecutor for 15 years, I've heard it 10,000 times in my life, whether it's one agent in a police department not telling others what he knows, or whether it's a CIA not telling FBI.

What's different here is that this administration under President Bush's leadership is absolutely committed to protecting this country.

Bob Mueller has set up a system now that has CIA and FBI reviewing the raw intelligence investigative reports from all over the United States and the world, and they are going to make far fewer mistakes under these circumstances.

It really is a cultural change. We need to make sure that when they reorganize the FBI as Mueller does, it's done correctly. But I'm convinced he understands the problem and wants to fix it.

BROWN: Senator, I admire your optimism tonight. I hope you're right. We all need it.

SESSIONS: And we're making progress, and how long it will stay before they drift back into old habits, we don't know.

BROWN: Senator, it's always nice to talk to you. Jeff Sessions from the State of Alabama with us tonight from Washington. Thank you, sir.

Later on NEWSNIGHT, the rock star and the Secretary of the Treasury -- an odd couple indeed battling AIDS in Africa.

Up next, the trial for a 40-year-old crime that rocked the country and changed the South.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Walter Cronkite called it the awakening of the civil rights movement, the moment that shocked the consciousness of so many people who maybe hadn't been moved and outraged, or outraged enough, by the discrimination against Black Americans.

The Birmingham church bombing of 1963 means a lot of things in the history of the civil rights struggle, and we'll talk about some of those in a moment or so, but at the root of it all, and this is important, it is a brutal crime story.

The victims were four children, four young black girls dressed in their Sunday best, about to sing in the choir. And tonight the fate of the last man accused of murdering them is in the hands of a jury.

A look now at closing arguments. Here is CNN's Gary Tuchman.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): During their closing argument prosecutors told jurors that "Bobby Frank Cherry and his Klan brothers were the forefathers of terrorism."

DOUG JONES, PROSECUTOR: We felt like our case tried as well as it could possibly could try.

TUCHMAN: Our cameras were permitted to take video of the proceedings but not record the sound. Bobby Cherry, say prosecutors, has mocked justice, and the time for justice is here.

Cherry is accused of the bombing of Birmingham's 16th Street Baptist Church in 1963. Four African-American girls, ranging from 11 to 14, were killed. Two other men, Tom Blanton and Robert Chambliss, have been convicted of the murders, one in 1977, one just last year.

Defense attorneys say their client was friends with the convicted man, but add, "We are not going to let the state convict purely on guilt by association. Yes, he was a Ku Klux Klan member and racist, but Bobby Cherry is not a killer," his attorney told the jury of six men and women, three of them African-American.

Prosecutors who presented evidence to jurors that Cherry was well-versed on how to make bombs were asked about confidence level as they wait for the jury's word.

JONES: We can't predict what that verdict will be. I can't tell you -- if any lawyer tells you that when a case goes into a jury that they feel good, they'd be lying to you.

TUCHMAN: When the verdict comes down it will become another piece of America's civil rights history. A Birmingham civil rights leader who Cherry boasted about punching in the face during a 1957 demonstration was asked about the possibility of not guilty verdict. REV. FRED SHUTTLESWORTH, CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER: Well, I think there are a lot of people who would be so wound up, we might have demonstrations. You don't know. I don't see how anybody who could have been involved in as much as he's involved in, they couldn't find enough evidence to convict him.

TUCHMAN: Prosecutors did not ignore jurors' emotions. They showed the jury of photo of 11-year-old victim Denise McNair hugging her white doll.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

On the morning the children were killed, they were attending a Sunday School lesson. The lesson was called "To Love and Forgive."

That sad irony that was pointed to the jurors, who deliberated this afternoon and this evening for two-and-a-half hours before retiring for the night. They will be back at this courthouse in Birmingham tomorrow morning 9:00 a.m. Central time.

If Bobby Frank Cherry is found guilty of first degree murder, his sentence is a mandatory life in prison -- Aaron.

BROWN: Gary, thank you. Gary Tuchman in Birmingham tonight.

There are other important moments in the struggle for civil rights in the country and in the South.

There was Rosa Parks, and there was Bull Conner and his dogs. In Mississippi there were Goodwin and Schwerner and Cheney, and in Selma, Alabama Viola Liuzo, but those four little girls, whose names few remember, their deaths spoke to the hate and the cruelty that marked this great and important battle.

Karl Fleming covered it all for "Newsweek" magazine and Mr. Fleming joins us tonight from Los Angeles.

Karl, it is nice to see you. What do you remember about that day?

KARL FLEMING, "NEWSWEEK": I remember going over to Birmingham the afternoon and walking down through the wreckage of that dynamiting, and in the rubble finding a Sunday School program, which had the face of Jesus on it, and one of the little black children had painted the face of Jesus black.

I mean, that really tore your heart out.

BROWN: Did -- were children targeted or was it an accident of history that children died?

FLEMING: I do not think children were targeted, although the fact that they were out demonstrating in Kelly Ingram Park every day made them subject to being victims as well as anybody else.

I don't think they were specifically targeted. It was just at this particular church had been the center since the spring of 1963 of almost daily demonstrations where 300 and 400 people led by Martin Luther King and Reverend Shuttlesworth, who you just heard, would try to march downtown in protest to the segregated practices of this very segregated city.

BROWN: I remember as a schoolboy in little Hopkins, Minnesota being shocked by it. Was white Birmingham shocked by it? Was the white southern establishment shocked by it?

FLEMING: Well, it is accurate to remember that in the 15 years preceding this particular bombing, there had been no less than 49 bombings of black people in the city of Birmingham.

There was one neighborhood that had been bombed so frequently that it was known as Dynamite Hill. And it was a kind of a cruel joke. Birmingham had a slogan which said, "It is nice to have you in Birmingham," and some of the journalists there had turned that around to say, "It is nice to bomb you in Havingham."

So I don't know. I think people were shocked that four little girls were killed, but certainly there was no shock that the bombings had gone on, because the Klan had been operating with total impunity there for many years.

BROWN: In -- then, as you look back at it and take a step back from it all these years later, place it in terms of importance in the history of the movement which ultimately led, of course, to the '64 civil rights bill and the rest.

FLEMING: One the genius things about Martin Luther King that has not been pointed out very often was that he knew that if demonstrations took place in Birmingham, that the national media would come there.

He also knew that this very brutal police commissioner, Bull Conner, would bring out the fire hoses and the dogs, and this was in the Spring of 1963, which did happen, and those pictures on television and on the cover of "Life Magazine" were the very first things that really awakened the country to what was actually going on.

And of course, the shock of four little girls being dynamited sort of put the seal on what everybody was beginning to know big time, which was that the things that King and other civil rights leaders had been complaining about for many years was true in spades.

BROWN: Yes. Half a minute or so. Does it matter whether this jury convicts this now old guy or not?

FLEMING: I think it matters enormously because it will bring, finally, a sense of justice and closure to this. I think it will serve at long last as a rebuke to the white power structure of that city, which if not -- if they didn't actually say go bomb this church, certainly gave tacit license to the Klan to do these things.

And I think it signals a time when the city of Birmingham can move on and put this behind -- black and white -- and move on further with the great progress that has been made in the South since those terrible days.

BROWN: Karl, it is good to see you. Karl Fleming who covered this all for "Newsweek Magazine" back then, from Los Angeles tonight.

Later on the program, the amazing journey of a symbol to honor one of the victims of September 11. That is coming up.

But up next, an unusual duo, to say the least, team up to battle AIDS in Africa. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Imagine for a second, how the personal ad might read: "Aging Irish rock star, socially committed and a bit of an exhibitionist, seeks older power broker to help advance favorite cause. Republicans OK, but must be the compassionate kind of conservative. Must be rugged enough for a ten-day exotic safari."

No, this isn't how Bono convinced treasury secretary Paul O'Neill to visit Africa to look at the problems of poverty, disease and debt, but it does give you an idea of this very odd couple who, by the way, had a chaperone on their first big date en route to Ghana. Daryn Kagan and a CNN camera crew.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BONO, SINGER, U2: I'd like to think that what the secretary understands is that the scale of this problem on the continent of Africa is so huge, that if we are to deal with it, we have to explain it to people before they can contribute. I think Americans are generous people. They have over the years, the last years, they've grown suspicious of aid because a lot of it, Secretary O'Neill says, has been wasted and ineffective. So the purpose of this trip from my point of view is to try to show people effectively and how it could transform the lives of people.

PAUL O'NEILL, SEC. TREASURY: Showcasing in Africa is a way to bring an understanding to the rest of the people in the world so we can mobilize resources and demand results and change the world.

BONO: There is -- I mean, this may sound grandiose, but I think you can allow a rock star to sound grandiose, I am sure that this time that we're living in, will probably be remembered for three things -- the Internet, what happened on September 11th, and how a whole continent went up in flames while people stood around with watering cans. These are the issues of our time.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Mr. Secretary, let me ask you this, you're known for thinking outside the box, both in the business world and government world; speaking your mind, sometimes it gets you in a little bit of trouble, but traveling with a big rock star, Bono? What was the reaction when you spread the word around in the administration?

O'NEILL: You know the president is a really cool guy. I think he was really intrigued. He wished he was going instead of me, I think.

Really, I do, don't you? We met with the president together and we had a great conversation, didn't we?

BONO: The president of the United States said to me, in the company of Secretary O'Neill, he said, look, if you could show me that this aid is effective, we'll get more of it to you. But I'm not ready to waste American tax dollars on programs that are not working.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: You know the old saying, rock 'n' roll makes strange bed fellows.

As NEWSNIGHT continues, a story of a small set of wings and their remarkable journey. Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We seem to be at that point in the whole long post 9/11 tragedy where there are a handful of stories at least about coming full circle. There was the flag, the one that someone raised above ground zero in the days after the attack that was sent to U.S. troops in Afghanistan. There were the family members of victims who went to Kabul so they could get to know the people there.

And then there is this story about a pair of wings that a grieving father sent to Afghanistan in honor of his daughter. Here's CNN's David Mattingly.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIKE LOW, FATHER: She expressly made the comment, mom, I love my job. With all conviction, she was really into it.

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A father's words of pride about a daughter who, all her life, loved to fly. On September 11, Sara Low was a flight attendant on board American flight 11, as hijackers crashed it into the World Trade Center. The wings she wore and cherished, lost in the wreckage.

(on camera): But the meaning of the wings immediately began to grow, and in ways no one could have anticipated. Sara lost her life in a terrible act of violence. But it was also the beginning of an emotional journey that would take the memory of Sara Low to the front lines in the war on terrorism. Sara's father sent this pair of flight attendant's wings, a gift from Sara's roommate, with a written request to the Pentagon: "Have some good man or woman carry these wings," he wrote, "they are of sturdy metal having resisted a lot of tears and sweaty palms without tarnishing."

LOW: I really wanted the wings to sort of go to war with Sara's spirit. A bit of touch stone for us to have with the soldiers that were really doing the dangerous stuff.

MATTINGLY: The wings eventually found their way to Afghanistan and Staff Sergeant Mark Baker.

STAFF SGT. MARK BAKER: I thought it would be a great honor. I would want somebody to be willing to do the same thing for me.

MATTINGLY: Baker, a special forces helicopter crew chief, wore the wings into some of the most dangerous combat mission of the war. More than 20 missions in all, often flying under fire Operation Anaconda, Bagram and Tora Bora. All the while, Sara's wings, they're now called, a constant reminder of why the fight goes on.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The placard reads, "Sara Elizabeth Low's spirit lives on."

MATTINGLY: In this rare public ceremony for the special forces, soldiers at Fort Campbell, Kentucky, brought Sara's wings home, returned with gratitude.

The combat mission a success, the Low family now would like for the wings to continue flying. They may be returned to Sara's friend, a flight attendant, who will wear them back on the job that Sara loved so much.

David Mattingly, CNN, Fort Campbell, Kentucky.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Up next on NEWSNIGHT the real "Rosie the Riveter." Be right back.

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BROWN: We began the program tonight longing for the days of the Cold War. We end in the days of World War II. In recent days, we've been reminded of the sacrifice war requires. The young bride who gave up her honeymoon last fall, who lost her husband, a national guardsman from West Virginia, in an ambush, Sunday. We grieve with her today.

The workers at ground zero, last night, uprooting their lives and emotions to do the most awful work, to scrape the ground 12 hours a day, a search, not for the living, for just small pieces of the dead. Sixty years ago, the men went off to war and the woman stayed home and kept the factories running. "Rosie the Riveter" was perhaps honored best by Norman Rockwell, a painting that'll be auctioned off tomorrow. Rosie, she was someone, and she was everyone, and she is remembered tonight by CNN's Garrick Utley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GARRICK UTLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): There she sits, quiet, strong, self confident, drawing us to her as she has drawn and captivated generations of Americans. Why does Rosie the Riveter still possess this power? Perhaps because now as then, the nation faces a threat and a challenge.

The then was World War II. As men went to war, women streamed into factories to build the weapons. Long before feminism or women's liberation became a slogan, and then a movement, women doing a man's job was a fact and a popular song.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (singing): All day long, whether rain or shine, she's part of the assembly line. She's making history working for victory, Rosie the Riveter.

UTLEY: When Norman Rockwell decided to paint Rosie he had to look for inspiration and found in Michelangelo's rendering of prophet Isaiah in the Sistine chapel. Although in the left hand he placed a sandwich. This was after all Rosie's lunch hour. And there in her lap was the Riveting gun, and at the bottom of the painting, her penny loafers on top of Adolf Hitler's Nazi bible "Mein Kampf."

If Rockwell was trying to depict the new American woman, this was his vision.

(voice-over): Her arms are muscular, her face is smudged with dirt. Put she has put on lipstick and her curls are all in place. There's a lace handkerchief in the pocket of her overalls. And over her head is a halo. Rosie is a saint.

When Norman Rockwell painted Rosie, he needed a model. He found her in 19 year-old Mary Doyle, a telephone operator in Arlington, Vermont, who was back with the painting as it went on sale at Sothebys in New York City.

She didn't see any resemblance.

MARY DOYLE KEEFE, "ROSIE": Once I saw it, I realized I'm not that big and everybody was kidding about the size he made me.

UTLEY: Through his long career Rockwell saw himself as an illustrator struggling to be accepted as a true artist. For decades his covers for "The Saturday Evening Post" captured the humor and the humanity of American life. But in 1943 with "Rosie" he achieved something more.

PETER RATHEBONE, SOTHEBY'S AUCTION HOUSE: It is a great painting, and I think one of the reasons it has this iconic quality is because it is more than just an illustration for "The Saturday Evening Post" cover.

UTLEY: If Critics hail Rosie as an exceptional work, how does the model who was paid $10 for two sittings see herself?

DOYLE-KEEFE: Just a normal person. So, nothing anything different than just a normal person.

UTLEY: And could that also be the secret of Rosie's appeal? When we look at her, we hope we're seeing something of ourselves.

Garrick Utley, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That's the program for tonight. Tomorrow on NEWSNIGHT, 10 years since Johnny Carson walked away from the "Tonight Show." We will talk with Dick Cavett, who used to write with him and Ed McMahon, who used to I guess just laugh at things Mr. Carson said. That's tomorrow on NEWSNIGHT. We will see you then. Good night for all of us.

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