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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Tensions High Between Pakistan and India

Aired May 31, 2002 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening again. I'm Aaron Brown.

OK, let's just run through some of this week. Not one, but two ceremonies that brought all the memories of September 11 flooding back, a warning that terrorists might be out there aiming Stinger missiles at American planes, the sight of a rescue helicopter hurdling down an 11,000 foot mountain. Last but not least, the threat of a nuclear catastrophe that could kill millions of Indians and Pakistanis and who knows who else.

It has been a rough week for all of us, so we hope to be excused for using perhaps the worst end of the week cliche known to humankind, TGIF, and we hope we'll be excused for taking a few minutes out of the program tonight for good old-fashioned mysteries.

No, not the mystery guest, just a mystery, plain and simple, the Maltese Nancy, yes that's the name and we think it is perfect for a Friday and especially for this Friday.

And one more piece of business and then we'll get on with it. We've been swamped with requests to either run the song for Danny Pearl's son again or put it up on the Web site or just send it to you. No, yes and no. I don't think we'll run it again. Once was right.

We posted the words on the Web site and they are as lovely to read as they were to hear, and Brian Cooley who wrote and sang them is going to record the song in a few weeks and then it will available with all proceeds going to the Daniel Pearl Foundation (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and thanks by the way, it got to all of us as well.

So here we go on a Friday night and not lightly either, not where the possibility of nuclear weapons are concerned. A warning today for Americans in India and there are thousands of them. Andrea Koppel is at the State Department on this Friday, Andrea the headline please.

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, it may seem like a no brainer to folks watching at home. India and Pakistan are both nuclear neighbors. They're been threatening war for months; nevertheless, the State Department today thought that it would be a good idea to give Americans living in India a little nudge. They told them to leave as soon as possible. Aaron.

BROWN: Andrea, thank you, on to Jamie McIntyre with the kind of assessment report that stops you dead cold. Jamie at the Pentagon, the headline please.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the other day when I asked Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld about the consequences of a nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan, he said it would be bad, very bad. Today, we got an idea of just how bad it would be courtesy of the Defense Intelligence Agency.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you. Now to the controversy over 9/11 and missed signals. Kelli Arena tonight on the uncertain fate of the FBI Director, Kelli a headline from you please.

KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, FBI Director Robert Mueller has been on the job just eight months and has a Herculean task before him. Some critics say he's just not up to the job.

BROWN: Kelli, thank you, back with all of you shortly. Also coming up on this Friday night edition of NEWSNIGHT, their news from India and Pakistan, how the crisis is being covered on the ground in the region on both sides.

An extraordinary apology from a high-ranking leader in the Catholic Church the Archbishop of Milwaukee, asking forgiveness for an inappropriate relationship one that cost parishioners nearly a half a million dollars.

Some high school students get advice on life. They get it from the former mayor of New York. We'll have a bit of what Mayor Giuliani told them in Pennsylvania today.

And Richard Quest on the fight songs of the countries competing in the World Cup. Let's just be happy that Richard is not singing these songs. You'll understand this better when you see the piece.

And as we said, it's mystery night. You'll understand that better when you see the piece too, but again this is not that goofball mystery guest night either. It's all coming up in the hour ahead.

We begin with a wakeup call for anyone who thought the Cold War ended when the Soviet Union collapsed. Tonight, India and Pakistan are as close to war as the United States and the Soviet Union ever were. About a million Indian and Pakistani troops now face each other across the border in Kashmir.

When they're not waiting for the other guy to blink, they're lobbing artillery shells at one another, while their leaders warn about what would happen if things get out of hand. We take some comfort that apparently lobbing artillery shells at one another is not considered out of hand.

Today the United States Government stepped up its diplomatic effort and considered the possibility that it might not work. Here again at the State Department, CNN's Andrea Koppel.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL (voice over): Heading home before things get worse. With war clouds looming, the State Department is telling 60,000 Americans in India to leave as soon as possible.

RICHARD BOUCHER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: The fact that both of these countries possess nuclear weapons is part of our thinking too.

KOPPEL: The State Department has also told the U.S. Embassy and Consulate in India, all non-essential employees and their families can leave if they want. U.S. Embassy personnel in Pakistan were ordered to leave months ago.

With a million troops facing off along the India-Pakistan border, tensions remain high, India threatening military action unless Pakistan's president puts an immediate end to cross-border incursions by Islamic militants in Kashmir.

Pakistan's decision to redeploy troops from the border with Afghanistan to Kashmir has only added to mounting frustration with Pakistan's president. On Thursday, President Bush made clear U.S. patience is running out. Even with new evidence, President Musharraf has begun to take action; U.S. officials say they're waiting for results.

BOUCHER: We have indications of instructions to - instructions have been given to help with stopping the infiltrations. It's still too early to say it has stopped.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL (on camera): And officials say proof it has stopped with be the end of those cross-border incursions in Kashmir. Next week, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Assistant Deputy Secretary of State Armitage are going to head to the region, Aaron, to deliver a message in person to General Musharraf to tell him that his future relationship with the U.S. depends on it.

BROWN: This is so - if it wasn't so dangerous, it would be so fascinating and delicate because of Musharraf and the help he gave the United States during the Afghanistan war. Does the United States believe that he can control the border enough to keep all of these incursions, these terrorists from crossing?

KOPPEL: I think that the answer is they don't know, but they do believe, just like they say with Yasser Arafat, that he could be doing more than he has and certainly there have been reports this week that al Qaeda has been regrouping in Pakistan, and in fact, has been perhaps fomenting some of these incursions in Kashmir. So it's very complex, but they do believe, I guess the bottom line, Aaron, is that Musharraf has - can be doing more than he has so far.

BROWN: Andrea, thank you, Andrea Koppel at the State Department. This is a story that's going to go on for some time. Should the worst happen and we pray it doesn't, India has promised not to be the first to use nuclear weapons. You can file this one under cold comfort, because going second in the nuclear weapons game isn't a whole lot better. That's the grim message Defense Secretary Rumsfeld brings to the region when he travels there next week and the subject of Jamie McIntyre's report from the Pentagon tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Pentagon intelligence analysts, who are paid to think about the unthinkable, calculate than an all-out nuclear war between India and Pakistan would initially produce as many as 17 million casualties, including between nine and 12 million killed and two to five million injured.

As U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld prepares to meet with Indian and Pakistani leaders next week, he is hinting he may use the sobering assessment to underscore the stakes of nuclear brinkmanship.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: We can (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the use and what the effects are but the immediate effects are and what the lingering effects are and what the secondary effects can be with respect to other problems.

MCINTYRE: The Defense Intelligence Agency assessment is based on a worst case scenario in which India and Pakistan use most if not all of their nuclear arsenals, and hit highly populated areas. Both sides have, at the very least, dozens of warheads and the missiles to deliver them.

TERESITA SCHAFFER, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: India generally speaking is believed to have more and the range that you hear about is from about 25 to somewhere in the neighborhood of 100. Pakistan is believed to have fewer. The fact is that even one or two is an arsenal that could have a devastating effect.

MCINTYRE: Computer modeling done by the Heritage Foundation shows that if India hit the Pakistani capitol of Islamabad with its largest nuclear device, a 43 kiloton bomb, the initial blast would kill 107,000 people and extend two miles. Fallout would be lethal for about 3.3 miles from ground zero.

Of course, a Pakistani nuclear strike on New Delhi would cause similar devastation and inevitably the death toll would grow as tens of thousands more die of radiation poisoning, disease and starvation in the weeks and months after.

MCINTYRE (on camera): India has a no-first-use policy, but Pakistan does not. With a smaller, weaker military, Pakistan is relying on its nuclear deterrents to keep India was waging a conventional war it would likely win. The big question is, if push comes to shove, would Pakistan push the nuclear button? Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: It does not get more sobering than that. Goodness. Other news tonight, shots being taken at the FBI Director over 9/11, earlier tonight his boss, Attorney General John Ashcroft said that he supports Director Robert Mueller completely, and so does President Bush, and in the end, I gather that's all that matters.

But with congressional hearings set to start next week, lawmakers, some of them have begun voicing their reservations and at least on certain editorial pages, the knives have come out and they are sharp. Here's CNN's Kelli Arena.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARENA (voice over): It's getting personal. Instead of criticizing the bureau, the darts are now being thrown at FBI Director Robert Mueller. The Wall Street Journal is calling for his resignation, suggesting he "isn't willing or able to change the FBI culture."

The New York Times called Mueller's blueprint for FBI reform, "too timid to get the job done." But his bosses are unwavering in their support.

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: He's grabbed the agency. He has begun to shift the culture. He's - as we were talking earlier, he's established a reformation which will allow us to consolidate the terrorism information in Washington to see where these pieces fit together.

ARENA: Mueller's most public gap was in the early days after 9/11, when he said the bureau had no warning that terrorists might be training at U.S. flight schools. Mueller says he'd been on the job just a little more than a week and did not know about information the FBI did have.

ROBERT MUELLER, FBI DIRECTOR: We must be open to new ideas, to criticism from within and from without and to admitting and learning from our mistakes, and I certainly do not have a monopoly, a monopoly on the right answers.

ARENA: Members of Congress seem willing, for now, to give Mueller time to carry out his proposed changes but some suggest he has yet to make any tough choices.

U.S. SENATOR CHARLES GRASSLEY (R) JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Heads have to roll in the bureaucracy in order for a message to get through.

ARENA: While heads haven't exactly rolled, there has been a significant change in management at the bureau. Since 9/11 there are new people on the job in at least 50 leadership positions, and the Anti-terror Division has been completely overhauled.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ARENA (on camera): Mueller will face tough questions from Congress in the next few weeks, as it looks into whether the FBI missed clues before 9/11. Now how he fares will likely have a big impact on both his credibility and his future. Aaron. BROWN: What's interesting to me about this, Kelli, is whether this story is being driven by editorial pages to Washington or whether in Washington there actually is any real serious movement to toss the director out.

ARENA: Aaron, I'll tell you, I made dozens of phone calls today to find out if there was a serious movement afoot and I did not get one person on the phone who told me that there was any plan to oust Robert Mueller from his position. There was a great deal of concern that was expressed over how he's handled himself since September 11. There was some slack cut for him though because he was not on the job really before 9/11.

They just want to be confident that he has the situation in hand so that he can move forward with some very aggressive reforms, Aaron. As we've been reporting all week, as you know, this is a major undertaking that's going on at the bureau right now. You're changing the entire culture and structure of this agency and so they have said that they want to make sure they have the right man for the job. But no one has gone so far as to say that he's the wrong man for the job just yet, outside of those editorial pages, Aaron.

BROWN: Kelli, thank you, Kelli Arena has had a long week too. Have a good weekend, thank you very much.

ARENA: You too, Aaron.

BROWN: Thank you. As NEWSNIGHT continues, we'll see how the average Indian and Pakistani is getting their news on the crisis that is playing out on their borders. Up next, a high school senior who got her man. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: After September 11, we knew immediately that the war on terror would be a new kind of war fought in different ways by different people. We got a very painful reminder of that back in November, when a 32-year-old CIA officer, not an 18-year-old GI, became the first combat death in Afghanistan.

Today, Mike Spann was honored, along with 78 other intelligence officers who have died in the line of duty, during the history of the CIA. Spann was killed in the prison uprising at Mazar e-Sharif.

Because it's the CIA, we weren't allowed to show pictures of the people gathered for the ceremony at headquarters today, but we are able to show you the star that was carved in his memory. Of the 79 on display out in Langley, only 44 are identified by name.

An old boss of one of our producers once said, you don't ask, you don't get. Clearly, that's a lesson already learned by the 36 members of the Shanksville Stoney Creek High School Class of 2002. The students, led by their Class President Gina Marie Walker, wrote a letter to a person probably more in demand than anyone else in the country as a commencement speaker this year and they got their man, former New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani. Now this just isn't any Pennsylvania town. Shanksville, you'll recall, is the town where United Flight 93 crashed on the 11th of September and so today, after visiting the crash site, the former mayor talked about what ties New York and Shanksville together.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RUDOLPH GIULIANI, FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK: The reason that I accepted Gina's invitation, and the invitation of all of you to come, is that I believe that our two communities are bound together in a bond that's going to last forever. New York is America's largest city. This is a representation of what represents a great deal of the rest of America, a small town with people who know each other.

Seeing a graduating class of 36 students is for me culture shock. I'm used to classes of 36 and 40 students. But the fact is that we're not inextricably bound together because we were the site of this horrible attack in this war of terrorists against us that occurred on battlefields now called the World Trade Center, Shanksville, the Pentagon, and we're also bound together because the heroic bravery of the people who responded to it, turned it around.

When you think about courage and you think about these great heroes that we now have so many stories of, here and in New York and in Washington and you know across the ocean in Afghanistan, they're really no different than you are.

You've got fear and you've got fear of making financial decisions, and you have fears about what's going to happen to you after you graduate from high school and what kind of job do you get or what happens in college or what happens in the military.

You're going to have fears about making choices in your personal life. Just remember that courage is about being able to feel that fear and then going ahead and doing what you believe is right anyway, even if you are afraid.

This is a really wonderful community. It showed a very, very brave, beautiful and compassionate response to the worst attack this country has so far undertaken, and I do feel a special bond with you, and I know everyone in my city does because what we demonstrated is, whether it's America's largest city or one of America's smallest communities, we responded the way we did not because we're from New York or Shanksville, or we're from Washington.

We responded the way we did because we're from America and we share a love of freedom and understanding of what our rights are all about in common, and that binds us together unlike anything else. We've gotten through a very, very difficult year.

We've gotten through it successfully, and that means you can handle what's going to happen to you in the future with much more strength and much more confidence and use it for that. God bless you and God bless America.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: Mayor Rudy Giuliani (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Later on NEWSNIGHT, we'll try to get to the bottom of that pressing national question, just who is Ted L. Nancy? This is a good one, and up next, the priest and the apology. This is NEWSNIGHT on a Friday.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Confession and seeking forgiveness are two central rituals of the Catholic Church, and today we saw two Holy men confessing and asking forgiveness as a result of the sex scandals that have and continue to rock the American Catholic Church.

They weren't just confessing to their God but to congregations and peers and to the public as well. The first was a meeting between Maryland Cardinal William Keeler (ph) and the man Dontee Stokes who has admitted to shooting a priest, a priest he claims molested him years ago. The apology came from the cardinal to Mr. Stokes for the pain that he has suffered.

And the former bishop in Milwaukee, the Archbishop there, Reverend Weakland confessed today as well. His apologies were profuse to a packed church and a prayer service. The archbishop had been accused of sexually assaulting a theology student, a charge he vehemently, adamantly denies. He says that if there were four nouns to describe the feelings he has right now, they are remorse, contrition, shame, and emptiness.

ARCHBISHOP REMBERT WEAKLAND, MILWAUKEE, WISCONSIN: I come before you today to apologize and to beg forgiveness. I know, I am sure you know too that the church to be authentic must be a community that heals, but I also know, you do too, that there is no healing unless it is based on truth.

I acknowledge and fully accept my responsibility for the inappropriate nature of my relationship with Mr. Paul Marku. I apologize for any harm done him.

At that time, 1979, I did not understand that responsibility in the same way as I do now. I have come to see and understand the way in which the power of the Roman collar can work in such relationships, and even more so, (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

There's understandable concern about the money paid out in the settlement agreement of 1998. I understood the settlement agreement in question as compensation for Paul Marku because of the claim that I had interfered with his ability to earn income.

Rather than spend the money litigating this claim, I agreed to an out of court settlement. In hindsight, I can see why it has the appearance of hush money. Perhaps I should have handled this situation differently. If I had done so, there would still have been sizable costs to the church, but at least it would have been out in the open.

One of my fears in not accepting the settlement was the prospect of scandal and embarrassment for myself and for the church. For that lack of courage, I apologize. I thank all of you for the wonderful support shown me through the years, and now at this moment. In the future, I count on your prayers as I hope for your forgiveness.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: What a wonderful shot that is at the end, isn't it? The archbishop not only took responsibility for his misconduct with Mr. Marku, but he also had things to admit about the $450,000 that was paid out as a result of his actions. He had claimed that this was money he had over the years earned in speeches.

Joining us tonight to talk about all of this, Meg Kissinger of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. Meagan has been working the story for a while now and watched the speech in Milwaukee today. It's nice to see you again.

MEG KISSINGER, MILWAUKEE JOURNAL SENTINEL: Thank you.

BROWN: I want to get to the money in a moment. I don't know. I mean you watched this thing play out. I just saw it again. It must have been an unimaginably painful moment for the - for - do we still call him the archbishop?

KISSINGER: Right, he remains there.

BROWN: For him to stand up and do that.

KISSINGER: Yes. It certainly looked that way to all of us, and equally as painful I would imagine to the people who have been victimized by priests in the church and Archbishop Weakland has been a lightning rod in this Catholic community. He has such strong followers and detractors of equal measure.

BROWN: Do we now believe, Meg that we know what this relationship was? The last time we talked, Mr. Marku was essentially saying - not essentially, was saying he was sexually assaulted. The letter from the archbishop seemed to indicate a consensual relationship. Are we any closer to knowing what the truth is?

KISSINGER: Not really, and it's been surprising that he has not, Mr. Marku hasn't been seen or heard from much since then. I'm surprised at that as well.

BROWN: And that is a promise. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Finally from us tonight, and finally may be the operative word, we're going to risk causing an international incident, but here goes. Americans do not get soccer. American parents get kids soccer, but we don't get the kind of soccer that right now is driving most of the rest of the world into a testosterone and beer powered frenzy.

Yes, we're talking about the World Cup, and that's football, thank you very much. Americans have, by and large, trouble relating to some breathless report about the underdog Croatian team. We don't much care that one star is married to Posh Spice, but there's at least one thing we have found that we have common ground on. We have fight songs, and they have fight songs. They have Richard Quest, too, reporting from London.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICHARD QUEST, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It doesn't take much to get them going at the sports cafe. A few drinks, a good game, and soon they're singing national songs. This year, there will be a bumper crop of songs to sing. It's the World Cup and countries are battling, not only on the field, but also for the best or worst football song.

This year's English offering comes from Anton Deck, "We're on the Ball," hardly the height of musical melody, but sure to be heard when England's playing in Japan. After all, it'll be breakfast time back home.

Ireland, too, has a song. "Here Come the Good Times." It's designed to rally the faithful, and maybe help push the team further to the final. From France to Brazil, football songs have always been used to build support, an unofficial national anthem, believes the psychologist Kathy Sinclair.

KATHY SINCLAIR: You know what happens if the national anthem of any country is being played? People get either very moved or very quiet, but their behavior is uniform. It's of the same tonality. Well, when it's a football song, it's much the same, only they're not so much moved. They're moved to action. But it means I belong here. This is my country. It's quite (UNINTELLIGIBLE), quite nationalistic as well.

QUEST: Former madness star, Charles Smash, has written his own unofficial song for the English side.

CHARLES SMASH, SOCCER FAN: What makes a good song is a couple of rolls, mixed up with a good beat. OK? Then a good chorus. Oh, yes we're coming. We're coming over. England are coming for the cup.

QUEST: Meanwhile, back at the sports cafe, the real singing goes on. And it's not long before others join in. Most of us don't sing much in public, leaving vocal chords to the privacy of the bath.

(on camera): There's still some time to go for the true fun to learn the World Cup national song. And no doubt, it'll take a great deal of practice before they finally get it right.

Richard Quest, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Well, there's our World Cup fight song story. Still got the hat. Of course, we could do that piece because "The New York Times" had already written what they were going to say. We weren't stupid. See you next week. Have a great weekend. Good night from all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

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