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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Did the CIA Move Too Slowly Pre-9/11?; Congressional Hearings Could Last Many Months; How Many Children Are Missing in Florida?

Aired June 03, 2002 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone, it's nice and warm in here tonight. A trip to the country courthouse for jury duty, I didn't make the cut as it turned out, kept me out of the office until quite late, which gave writer Linda Keenan a free chance to work her magic on this page, a page where just about anything goes, anything you want to say, any comment you want to make and Linda, bless her, chose cows and their relationship to the 11th of September.

These are the cows you are about to see. Their owners are part of the Masai Tribe in Kenya. They had only recently heard of the tragedy of the 11th from a Masai who was in New York that day and came back to tell everyone in the village tales of people jumping from skyscrapers, buildings none of them had ever seen or could conceive of.

The Masai live a long way from the conveniences of modern life, but they were horrified and they wanted to do something, so they decided to donate 14 of their cows to America. To the Masai, there's nothing more precious, there's nothing more sacred than their cows, the ultimate gift was how one of them put it and one of the best we've heard about since the 11th.

Yes, this is an unabashed, unadulterated feel good story, and it's not a bad way to start a week, a week that if it's anything like last week, we'll need all the cows and all the good news stories that we can dig up. There's the good news on the 11th.

Now we begin with the bad, the finger pointing between the CIA and the FBI. CIA's David -- no, CNN's David Ensor.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, thank you.

BROWN: Yes, you're welcome, begins the whip, David the headline please.

ENSOR: Aaron, the blame game is in full swing on the eve of the congressional hearings into what went wrong prior to September 11. The latest from the CIA is that officials there told the FBI 20 months ago that one of the future hijackers was a man they should investigate, but there are admissions of fault, too, from the CIA, officials saying that they later moved too slowly against that man and against another. BROWN: David of CNN, we'll be back to you shortly. The latest revelations come just ahead of congressional hearings, which start tomorrow. Jonathan Karl trying to track that story tonight, Jon a headline from you.

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And, Aaron, if there is to be any finger pointing on Capitol Hill tomorrow, it will be classified. The first hearing will be behind closed doors and the first order of business will be setting a timetable for an investigation, including public hearings that could go well into next year.

BROWN: Jon, thank you. Just when you thought the Rilya Wilson story couldn't get much worse, tonight there is word of more Rilyas, many more. Susan Candiotti continues to work that for us in our Miami Bureau, Susan a headline please.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Aaron. How many children are missing in Florida, or is Rilya Wilson an isolated case? Well tonight, dueling numbers from a couple of Florida State agencies and the answer might depend on how you define missing. We'll see you later.

BROWN: Yes, we will and now on to the tensions between India and Pakistan. Matthew Chance is in Kazakhstan where Asian leaders are attending a regional security meeting, Matthew the headline from you please.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, they're here in the same place at the same time, but such is the nature of the bitter relations between India and Pakistan over Kashmir at the moment. That very fact is no guarantee that the leaders of those two countries are likely to meet. There is a lot of international pressure here for them to do that, but will it be enough? That's the big question we'll be answering later on in the show.

BROWN: And Matthew thank you, back with all of you in a few moments. Also coming up on this Monday edition of NEWSNIGHT the fate of Michael Skakel in the hands of a Connecticut jury tonight, the story that's been sad and sordid and utterly confusing at the same time. Our legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin will join us to talk about closing arguments and the rest.

We're also pleased to say that author David Halberstam is here tonight to talk about his latest book, "Firehouse" inside one firehouse in New York, a firehouse that lost a dozen men in a matter of minutes on the 11th.

And you saw how the Masai paid tribute to those killed that day. At the end of the program, you'll hear how one volunteer honored the workers at Ground Zero, a lovely poem called "The Worker's Lament." All of that to come on this Monday from New York.

But we begin with a word of caution about the latest installment of who knew what prior to 9/11, and more importantly, who told whom. Everything we're about to report is a bit like looking at pictures from the Hubble telescope. The events happened months or years ago. The light is only reaching us now. Things may have changed a lot since then, may have. Cooperation between the FBI and the CIA and the rest of the alphabet soup may be a lot better today.

But that picture is yet to come. Tonight's picture is all about a report the CIA never told the FBI a pair of al Qaeda terrorists, and the CIA saying oh yes we did. This bureaucratic back and forth would be sort of fun if it were not for the tragedy of the 11th and the growing if not yet conclusive evidence that it might have been prevented. Here again, CNN's David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR (voice over): CIA officials tell CNN their internal documents show that on January 5, 2000, more than a year-and-a-half before September 11, the agency advised the FBI that one of the men who later rammed a plane into the Pentagon, Khalid al-Midhar, should be the subject of further investigation by the FBI.

The CIA told the FBI, officials say, that al-Midhar was expected at a meeting in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia within days, the meeting including suspected terrorists. Officials say the FBI was also sent the original intelligence tip received in late December '99 by the National Security Agency about the meeting in Kuala Lumpur.

The revelations come from CIA officials stunned by reports suggesting they had withheld information from the FBI, but the CIA made mistakes too before September 11. It lost more than six critical months, officials confirm, before putting al-Midhar and the other suspected terrorist, Nawaf al-Hazmi, on a watch list to be kept out of the United States.

SEN. BOB GRAHAM (D-FL), CHAIRMAN, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Had these people been on the watch list 90 days earlier, then when the other information, such as that which the FBI was collecting had been checked against names, these people might have emerged. It might have caused further intelligence to be gathered and at the end of the day, might have avoided September the 11th.

ENSOR: Not only were al-Midhar and al-Hazmi at the meeting in Kuala Lumpur in January of 2000, in March of 2000, officials now confirm, another nation told the CIA that al-Hazmi had flown from the Malaysian meeting to Los Angeles, California.

In October, 2000 came the attack on the USS Cole in Yemen. Then in January, 2001 officials now say, the FBI identified a third man who attended that meeting in Kuala Lumpur, Tawfiq Attash Khallad, as a suspect in the Cole bombing.

At that point, the CIA could have put al-Midhar and al-Hazmi and all others who attended the meeting in Malaysia on a watch list to be kept out of the U.S. It was not done. On July 4, al-Midhar was able to reenter the U.S. from a trip outside the country.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: All of this will get close attention at this week's closed Intelligence Committee hearings on Capitol Hill. The new information suggests U.S. intelligence and law enforcement were talking but not enough, and neither was able to connect the dots, neither moved quickly enough to exclude from this country two very dangerous men. Aaron.

BROWN: Well in a moment we're going to talk to one of the reporters from "Newsweek" magazine who's reporting has started this latest flurry, and in their reporting, they talk about the FBI not being told and you're reporting you have the FBI being told. How do we square this, if we can square this?

ENSOR: I can only tell you what the sources I have tell me.

BROWN: Right.

ENSOR: There is a blame game going on here. There's finger pointing going on as we've said. On the eve of these hearings, nobody wants to be the fall guy. That much is clear.

But the sources that I talked to who are in the intelligence community, which I cover, are adamant that on January 5, 2000 there was a document sent to the FBI telling them that this one individual at least was suspected of having connections with terrorist groups, was going to the Kuala Lumpur meeting upcoming, and ought to be investigated by the FBI. That's their side.

BROWN: You handled that question about as well as you can. I apologize for the question. Let me ask you another. Is there within the intelligence community, the sources you're dealing with, a belief that had all systems worked they could have stopped this?

ENSOR: I haven't talked to people who...

BROWN: OK.

ENSOR: ... are sure of that, no. There are, you heard Senator Graham say it might have worked.

BROWN: Yes.

ENSOR: But I haven't talked to people in the federal government who are confident that it would have worked. You just may not be able to stop all of these. That's sort of the view I get.

BROWN: Fair enough point, David thank you, David Ensor. Let's bring in now Dan Klaidman, who along with Michael Isikoff wrote the story for "Newsweek" magazine, the cover story of the magazine this week that started this all rolling this time. Dan comes to us from Washington, nice to see you.

Do you have any feel for what you're hearing in David's reporting and what the CIA is saying now and how that squares with what your sources were telling you when you guys were reporting this? DAVID KLAIDMAN, "NEWSWEEK": Yes, well we should be precise about what the CIA is saying and what we reported. First of all, we reported in our story that the CIA had told the FBI about the Malaysia meeting and about the presence of al-Midhar and al-Hazmi.

The issue here is whether the CIA fully told the FBI about al- Hazmi's traveling to the United States, and the fact that al-Midhar was able to obtain a multiple reentry visa, which would have allowed him to travel to the United States at will.

Now on the issue of al-Hazmi traveling to the United States, which the CIA knew about, they are not claiming that they told the FBI about him.

I gather they are saying that they told the FBI that al-Midhar had obtained this reentry visa, but the FBI says that's not the case. This is a classic food fight between the CIA and the FBI. It looks like it may be getting nasty and we'll just have to see what happens.

BROWN: Right, and I'm not trying to put you guys in the middle of all of this. A couple quotes from the article. You quote one official: "We didn't know" -- speaking of these two guys -- "We didn't know they were bad guys and what they were doing at the al Qaeda meeting."

Well, what might they have been doing at the al Qaeda meeting other than being bad guys?

KLAIDMAN: That's a good question. They knew that they were serious enough to ask the Malaysians to put them under surveillance and they were clearly interested in them or they wouldn't have done that, and then they were also interested to learn that al-Hazmi had traveled to the United States.

But what happens is, a few months later in December of 2000, they certainly realize that these guys are potentially very bad guys, because as the CIA is investigating the bombing of the USS Cole, they identify a man by the name of Khallad, who is identified as a key architect of the Cole bombing.

And it turns out that Khallad was also a participant in this Kuala Lumpur meeting, and it turns out that the Malaysians took a picture of Khallad and al-Midhar together.

So that linked al-Midhar to the USS Cole bombing. By this time, they also know that al-Hazmi was traveling -- had traveled with al- Midhar to the United States, so they certainly have great concerns about both of these guys. And at this point, you would think that the alarms would start to go off and they might have taken that information and turned it over to the FBI and to other agencies. That didn't happen.

BROWN: Now just to complicate this with one more name. If I follow the tracking in your piece correctly, if they had said to the Malaysians "keep an eye on this for us, there's something bad going on here," they would have eventually run into Moussaoui. Is that correct?

KLAIDMAN: That's right. Eventually they would have run into Moussaoui. Moussaoui, quite a bit, a few months later visits the apartment of a man named Sufat (ph) -- Yazid Sufat. It was in Sufat's apartment that this January 5 meeting in Kuala Lumpur took place. Sufat turns out to be -- have acted as Moussaoui's handler essentially and has ties to al Qaeda.

He was the one who set up Moussaoui with letters that Moussaoui used to establish himself in the United States as a marketing person for some sort of a company and also, we're told, gave some money to Moussaoui a well as he was getting established in Minneapolis.

BROWN: Dan, it's good to talk to you again. It's a wonderful piece of reporting in the magazine this week, in "Newsweek," and it's good to see you.

KLAIDMAN: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you, Dan Klaidman, "Newsweek" magazine. All of this, of course, sets the stage for House and Senate Intelligence Committee hearings that begin tomorrow.

A ranking member of the Senate Intelligence Committee today predicted more revelations to come. The CIA Director George Tenet, he says is in denial, is totally wrong and the facts will bear that out. These words come from a Republican Senator, from Richard Shelby of the state of Alabama.

Democrats are hardly gentler on this. CNN's Jonathan Karl is working this. He is on Capitol Hill and we go to Jon now. Jon, why don't you sort of draw a picture of where these hearings are going to be, because that's as close as any of us are going to get to actually seeing it tomorrow.

KARL: That's right. These hearings, the first hearings will take place in the most secure room in the Capitol complex. It's a small, windowless room, completely soundproof, in the attic of the Capitol Building, not far from the dome. It's the place that they go and have their classified briefings. This will be a classified session.

And basically what the committee is doing here is they're saying that they are not trying to go out and do the game of finger pointing and the blame game. They want to try to learn from mistakes.

Quoting George Santiana (ph), the philosopher, they say: "Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it." So they want to learn the history and, Aaron, at the first that's going to be simply talking to themselves.

There are 24 members of the staff of this joint House and Senate committee that have looking into nothing but September 11 since February. They've interviewed more than 100 people, conducted -- they've compiled about 100,000 pages worth of material. They're going to start to present some of their findings to the members, the actual members of Congress who sit on that committee.

But there will be some public activity this week, Aaron. That is on Thursday. The Judiciary Committee is going to hear from Coleen Rowley, the person that's being called a whistleblower, the Minneapolis field agent who wrote that 13 page letter to Robert Mueller, basically saying that the FBI Headquarters in Washington bungled the Moussaoui investigation.

That will be very interesting. That will be a public hearing on Thursday, and at that very same hearing, Mueller himself will also testify.

BROWN: Now based on just the things that have come out over the last three weeks or so, the Phoenix memo, the Minneapolis memo, the stuff that both David and "Newsweek" are reporting today, they can talk all they want about not wanting to finger point, but the fact is that they are looking at missed signals.

What's tricky it seems to me is particularly for Republicans to do this in a way that brings out the information that's necessary without hurting the administration any more than perhaps is absolutely necessary.

KARL: Well you quoted Richard Shelby at the start of this. Richard Shelby the top Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee has been perhaps the most critical member of that committee, critical of George Bush's CIA. The Republicans here are looking at -- some of the Republicans leading the charge on this are those that have been most critical of abuses of the FBI over the years.

You saw Sensenbrenner, the Chairman of the Judiciary Committee in the House, came out against this plan that the FBI now has to once again begin spying on you know domestic -- spying within the United States.

So you have some Republicans that are going to be very aggressive. Remember, Aaron, these committees are completely divided evenly between Republicans and Democrats.

BROWN: Jon, thank you, Jonathan Karl has his work cut out for him this week as the hearings begin at the Capitol. It's good to see you, Jon. A quick update now on the FBI warning we got just before Memorial Day. Agents have begun contacting dive shop owners around the country, warning them that terrorists may be looking to buy scuba gear or sign up for diving lessons.

Again that is not a specific threat, at least not according to what the FBI is saying tonight, so file this one under "A" as in abundance of caution.

Later on the program tonight, a band of brothers at one New York firehouse, noted author David Halberstam joins us in a little while. Up next the search for the other Rilyas lost by the State of Florida. In a town meeting tonight, a very troubling story gets a whole lot worse. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: When the story of Rilya Wilson, the child the State of Florida lost and still remains unfound tonight first broke, Beth Nissen of our staff opined that this sort of thing happens all the time. Thousands of kids get literally lost in the system.

Well we can't make that case yet, but we can say tonight that in Florida, at least, Rilya is not alone. There may be 100 kids or is it 200? That's part of the problem. Different audits come up with different numbers. No one seems to know how many children are lost in Florida. Susan Candiotti joins us again from Miami, Susan good evening.

CANDIOTTI: Good evening, Aaron, and as tragic as that sounds, we can not give you a definite answer about how many children are currently missing in the State of Florida because we are hearing different numbers from different state agencies.

Now the backdrop for all of this is a town meeting that broke up just a little while ago, where people vented their frustration over the disappearance of Rilya Wilson and over a troubled state agency.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI (voice over): A Florida lawmaker wonders where's the outrage? Why can't anyone find the missing five-year-old?

FREDERICA WILSON, FLORIDA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: We're being looked upon as an unfeeling state who cares nothing about African- American children.

CANDIOTTI: A town hall meeting as new numbers reveal more than 1,200 children in the state's care were ordered to be tracked down in the month of May. But the report raises more questions than answers. It includes 400 runaways, 135 taken by one parent or another, 265 children have yet to be seen.

A separate report, apparently based on the child agency's same numbers comes up with a different total. Florida's Department of Law Enforcement reports 155 missing children, including runaways, but Rilya the only one both agencies consider in danger. Child advocates are outraged pointing out runaways could be in serious trouble too.

CHRISTINA ZAWICZA, CHILDREN FIRST: These children are very vulnerable. I don't know how they can say that just because they're not five years old, they're not important enough for our state to worry about.

CANDIOTTI: In the city of Miami alone, since Rilya's disappearance, police have been handed files of at least 20 children Florida caseworkers can not find, one child missing since 1996 and police not notified until last month.

DELRISH MOSS, MIAMI POLICE SPOKESMAN: The Department of Children and Families were supposed to be keeping tabs on this child and are supposed to know where he is and after several years, they don't know. They don't have any information, so we have even less to go on.

CANDIOTTI: In Rilya's case, police say they don't have much to go on either. So far prayers and a $50,000 reward have not solved the case of the missing five-year-old.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI: And, Aaron, those 255 children referred to earlier in the report, well authorities say they will be seen by the end of the week but they add this. They think they know where they are but they're not 100 percent sure. Aaron.

BROWN: OK, thank you Susan. When they find these kids, then we'll report on that. There's 265 kids they think they know where they are. One other legal story here, this comes out of the U.S. Supreme Court. The Supreme Court today refused to allow the State of Texas to execute an inmate because the inmate's lawyer slept through parts of his trial. That was back in 1984. He's been on death row since.

What the court did not do today was formally accept the case, and in a way the court then can, make that law, that a sleeping lawyer is automatically an incompetent lawyer. The court did not do that and so in some cases, a sleeping lawyer would not be considered incompetent to present a defense.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, one woman's tribute to the workers at Ground Zero. That's coming up a little bit later. Before that, the leaders of India and Pakistan in the same place today though worlds apart. This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: There was a party at the palace today in honor of Her Majesty Britain's Queen Elizabeth, the Queen celebrating her Golden Jubilee in style. That would be 50 years on the throne. It kicked off with a guitarist of the band Queen, how appropriate, playing the song of course the group made so famous, "God Save the Queen."

And all the greats were there including Paul McCartney, Eric Clapton, Rod Stewart and of course, Ozzy Osbourne. You didn't know the Queen was this hip, did you?

At the end of the evening, the Queen led the Royal Family onto the stage to thank all of the performers and her heir, Prince Charles, thanked the performers and thanked his mother as well. And with that, the Jubilee ended with a 14-minute fireworks display.

The Queen closing the party by lighting a beacon, the final one in a chain that spread through the United Kingdom and 50 other commonwealth countries, a big day there.

A big day here too, the presidents of India and Pakistan are as close as they're likely to get tonight. Both have traveled to a regional security conference in the former Soviet Republic of Kazakhstan. Neither appears ready to talk about the pressing security issues, however, in their own region, the conflict over Kashmir, the million or so troops facing off and the possibility that things will end in some sort of nuclear war. Plenty of reasons to talk, you would think, but no talking yet. CNN's Matthew Chance is in Kazakhstan for us tonight. Matt.

CHANCE: Aaron, as you say the leaders of India and Pakistan, those two nuclear neighbors, are in the same place and at the same time but that's no guarantee given the bitter relations over Kashmir between the two countries.

It's no guarantee that they are going to meet, even though that is the will of the international community and a great deal of diplomatic pressure is being brought to bear around the world on India and Pakistan to get to the negotiating table to at least begin a process of de-escalating the tensions that have emerged over Kashmir.

Envoys of course from the United States, from Britain, from Japan, from the United Nations, but whatever happens with those diplomatic initiatives, it is here in this central Asian republic where the current hopes lie.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): The jagged peaks of Kazakstan. Hundreds of miles from Kashmir, but now a focus of international efforts to stop a potentially nuclear war from breaking out there. If only the leaders of India and Pakistan would talk.

But Atal Bihari Vajpayee, India's prime minister, is ruling out that. He's been meeting regional leaders here, including his host, President Nazarbayef (ph). Until Pakistan cracks down further on militants infiltrating Indian administered Kashmir, Indian officials say there will be no talks face-to-face.

OMAR ABDULLAH, INDIAN EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and it's as simple as that.

CHANCE: President Bush arrived in this central Asian republic amid wide anticipation about what can be achieved. The two nuclear neighbors have so far avoided each other here, juggling meetings with regional leaders. But Pakistani officials say they at least have come to talk peace on Kashmir.

NISAR MENOM, PAKISTAN INFORMATION MINISTER: We have taken a lot action. India is time for the world to ask India what India is reciprocating. India has to reciprocate by way of de-escalation, by way of dialogue, by way of stopping all the act of India that it has been doing in order to escalate this.

CHANCE: The diplomatic war of words has already begun in earnest here. And if these very public battles are any measure, it's hard to see what progress, if any, can be made.

(on camera): But it is what happens in private that could decide the outcome of this central Asian summit. Diplomats say the closed meetings between the various countries represented here, and India and Pakistan separately are the real opportunity to put pressure on both sides to step back from the brink.

Expectations may be low, but it is in the interests of every country here to make an effort.

(voice-over): Not least Russia. President Putin comes to Kazakstan as the leader who invited both India and Pakistan to meet here in the first place. Much may now depend on if he can bring them together.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHANCE: Well those Russian diplomatic efforts have begun in earnest already here, with meetings scheduled separately between the Russian President Vladimir Putin and the leaders of India and Pakistan. China is also contributing its considerable diplomatic weight and influence by having its own separate meetings with the leaders of the two nuclear neighbors, India and Pakistan as well. Will it be enough, though, to pressurize the two countries to start that process of de-escalation? That's still the big question here in Kazakstan -- Aaron.

BROWN: Matthew, thank you. It is the only important question. And somehow, to get these people to start talking or at least stop threatening one another. Thank you, Matthew Chance tonight.

Coming up still on the program, it's been a quarter of a century since the crime. Tomorrow, a jury begins deliberating on the fate of Michael Skakel. Our legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, joins us when NEWSNIGHT continues from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Jurors will begin deciding the fate of Michael Skakel tomorrow, the Kennedy cousin accused of killing his 15-year-old neighbor a quarter of a century ago. Well, this thing had elements of a three ring circus. In the end, though, this is about a girl, 15- year old girl, who was clubbed to death by someone. And that someone, whoever it is, has been free for 25 years. Never having been held accountable.

It has been a messy case for the prosecution to make. 25 years is a long time. And the truth is, if it had been a slam dunk in the first place, they would have made it long ago, but they couldn't, which is not the same thing as saying there isn't a case. And if you listen carefully, it looked like a good one today when the prosecution tied it all together, all of which by way we introduce our legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, who watched it all.

I gather you were quite impressed with how Mr. Chips, as you referred to him last week, tied his case together, the prosecution.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Aaron, when we've talked about this case, I've been down on the prosecution. I've said the case was old, that they had their evidence had problems. And I've been belaboring them in one way or another. Jonathan Benedict gave one of the best summations I have ever heard in a courtroom. Every courtroom is quiet. But there were people, they were not even breathing at the end of this summation. It was really riveting, riveting drama.

BROWN: And I gather he used Skakel's own words more literally than you might expect to make his case?

TOOBIN: See, this is what they teach you to be a trial lawyer, to do in summation is you take different parts of the case and you bring it together. And what he did was he took Michael Skakel's book proposal, Michael Skakel gave interviews to a ghostwriter in hopes of writing a book, which he surely regrets ever doing now. And in that, he described the night of the crime. 4 And at the end of his summation, what Jonathan Benedict did was he pulled out certain phrases, certain descriptions that Skakel gave, and he put it up on a screen, those transcripts. And next to the transcripts, he did photographs of the dead body of Martha Moxley, that was so haunting.

And he showed that in that interview, Skakel lied at several key moments that it was pretty clear that he lied. And it was chilling, damaging evidence. Is it enough to win? I don't know.

BROWN: Is it evidence?

TOOBIN: Well it's good evidence.

BROWN: Well, is it evidence? I mean, is a closing argument considered evidence?

TOOBIN: Well, no. He was citing evidence. The argument itself is not evidence, but he was reading from the transcript.

BROWN: I'm not meaning to sound like I know anything about the law.

TOOBIN: But that's a fair question.

BROWN: You know me far better. But one of you legal smart guys once told me a long time ago when we were in California together that jurors often make up their minds what the story is here, the story they're working with, long before we get to closing arguments.

TOOBIN: Well, and in many respects, that's the best thing Jonathan Benedict has going for him, because the evidence isn't that great, but there is a story here of a young man who was resentful of his elder brother, who was more successful with Martha Moxley than he was, who was angry, who had a bad temper and who snapped on the night of October 30, and then panicked trying to cover it up.

That's a story that has some dramatic appeal. There's not a lot of evidence to support that that actually happened, as Mickey Sherman pointed out in his summation. But I'll tell you, I mean, for the first time in that courtroom, there were people saying oh, I see how this evidence fits together.

BROWN: Because the prosecution has the burden, the prosecution gets to be the last word in these things. How did Mickey Sherman close his case, the defense lawyer?

TOOBIN: Mickey Sherman had a wonderful image that he used throughout his summation. He talked about musical chairs. He said, you know, the prosecution here and the cops, first they said Tommy Skakel's our guy. And they prepared an arrest warrant for him. Well, and then they gave up on him.

Then they decided that Ken Littleton, the tutor, he was the main suspect. And they persuaded his ex-wife to do a sting operation. And they taped all sorts of phone calls with him. Then they gave up on Ken Littleton.

Finally, they seized on Michael Skakel. And they said well, now the music's stopped, and he's the one in the chair. But you know, who's to say they aren't going to change their mind again? It was pretty compelling.

BROWN: See, as one who has now spent all of two hours in a jury box before getting...

TOOBIN: That's right. You're a veteran.

BROWN: That's right. That's the part that I think is so troublesome for the prosecution, that that's the very definition of reasonable doubt, other plausible suspects.

TOOBIN: Well, and Mickey Sherman worked with that. And he said -- you remember there's this issue of did Ken Littleton confess? And he sort of threw up his hands and said I don't know whether he confessed or not. It's the same thing with Michael Skakel's confession. We can't tell what those mean either.

By making Michael Skakel look like Kenneth Littleton, look like Tommy Skakel as sort of a possible suspect. But someone who's just a figure in a mystery, that again is the definition of reasonable doubt.

BROWN: I don't want you telling me what it is. I want you to tell me if you believe you know how the jury is going to go here?

TOOBIN: Well, if you would have asked me yesterday, I would have said for sure. Today, I don't know.

BROWN: Thank you, Jeffrey Toobin. We shall see.

Later on NEWSNIGHT, a tribute to the workers at Ground Zero. Up next, the story, a tribute in its own way, of one firehouse and its sacrifices, and its struggles on 9-11 and beyond. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: It's a wonderful story. In David Halberstam's new book about engine company 40, ladder company 35, which lost 12 men on the 11th of September. There are lots of good stories in the book, but this is one of them. The father of one of those young firefighters who died, a fireman himself, once asked his son why he chose to follow in his footsteps. And said the son, "Because you always come home from work happy."

It sort of goes to one of the themes of the book, men who couldn't conceive of doing any other job. One filled with the joy of doing the right thing. Even if the right thing means you are risking your life.

David Halberstam's book is called "Firehouse." It is always, and I do mean always, good to welcome you here. David, it's nice to see you.

DAVID HALBERSTAM, AUTHOR, "FIREHOUSE": Nice to see you.

BROWN: Every reporter at one point in their life chases fire engines. In truth, did you spend much time thinking about firemen, though, prior to the 11th?

HALBERSTAM: No, not really. I mean, I think like most New Yorkers I had a kind of distant admiration for them, because dealing with the high-rises, the skyscrapers, the knowledge that they went up there, and everybody I knew who'd ever dealt with them, came away with a sort of affection of what kind of men they were. But I hadn't really. I went over there after September 11.

BROWN: Yes, and over there in your case was almost literally right down the block.

HALBERSTAM: 3.5 blocks.

BROWN: Yes.

HALBERSTAM: I think we were on 67th. They're on 66th. We're on Central Park West and Columbus. They're over by Amsterdam.

BROWN: Yes, so this is the neighborhood firehouse. And it took a terrible hit on the 11th?

HALBERSTAM: They sent 13 men that day on two rigs, and 12 died. And one was Rudy, the one who survived, Kevin Shea, was very seriously injured. I mean, it's amazing. And he was blown, I don't know, 100 feet or so away from where he was standing. I mean, it's amazing that he's alive.

BROWN: And how's he doing, by the way? I mean...

HALBERSTAM: Well, I don't think -- well, you know, I think he'd like to come back and be a fireman, but I think, you know, they're still trying to figure out where he is, and whether this changes his course there. I don't think it's in his hands right now.

BROWN: The -- in many ways, the New York City fire department, it seems to me is an unchanged institution over 100 years, maybe more, really since the wave of Irish immigration. HALBERSTAM: Well, it's as close to being hermetically sealed as you can get in our era. I mean, every other institution changes, and changes on gender, whatever.

This stays much the same, because the men follow their fathers in. The traditions, the codes are very strong. I mean, you cannot come in and do an egocentric rather -- or idiosyncratic tap dance there. They won't have it.

And so, it's very -- as someone there -- one of the men there said, Terry Holden, the most senior guy said, everything else around us has changed. Everybody's turned over since I first came in. And yet, it's almost exactly the same in what we do, the codes, the sense of honor and who we are.

BROWN: One more little question, I think, and then I want to talk about something else you said today. There are a lot of, I guess, there's a lot of books out there now about the 11th and about the fire department for obvious reasons. Yours is one of the few written by classically a reporter.

HALBERSTAM: Well, I mean, I like going out and clearly asking questions.

BROWN: Yes. What do you want people to get from this, to take from this?

HALBERSTAM: That's a good question. I mean, I think who they are. There's that one image of that day I came down here that first night. You know, I was here. I saw you. Stunned, we walked down the cabs or subways.

That day, the most lasting image is of everybody else fleeing the building and the firemen going in. And that's engraved in my mind. And I wanted to know who they were. And I wanted people to know who they were, and why they do it, and who the 12 men were, or the 13.

BROWN: Yes.

HALBERSTAM: And the families, the widows and children. I wanted that very badly. I mean, what makes it work? Why do these men take such risk for strangers? Even in Vietnam when I was there, when people run across the battlefield and carry somebody off, they're doing it for buddy. These men would do it, take these risks for complete strangers. In the city of Manhattan that they can't afford to live in. I find that just amazing.

BROWN: Yes, it's one of the great ironies of this. We do, with our guests, a pre-interview. And in the pre-interview, if I read the comment right, you said everyone longs for community. And there is less of that now in New York. I've never, and I've known you 15 years, I've never argued with you. I want to argue that in fact there is a greater sense...

HALBERSTAM: No, I mean, there's more of it post September 11.

BROWN: OK, that's the argument I was making.

HALBERSTAM: When I said less of it, I meant there's less of it in general in the modern age.

BROWN: Yes.

HALBERSTAM: We don't know our neighbors as well and other people. Post September 11, it's a much stronger fabric. I think we, in normal times, long for community. After September 11, and I speak for myself here as well, we ached for it. To be connected to those around us. To know the people who were part of the fabric, who we didn't know, but were part of made our lives more bearable.

I mean, I found that was very apparent to me going over there. Who were these men who had protected my home all these years?

BROWN: Yes. I find, just from my own experience, that we are...

HALBERSTAM: No, they got that wrong from the pre-interview.

BROWN: Got it. That happens in life. That the whole sense of New York as a community is closer, tighter, more real to me as someone who has lived here just 10 years.

HALBERSTAM: More respectful of other people. And I used to say that I was, I used to think of myself as a New Yorker. Now I really think of myself more as a citizen of New York. I mean, there's a sense that we -- I mean, you know, you can tear apart again.

BROWN: David, it's wonderful to see you. If I don't see you again, have a wonderful summer.

HALBERSTAM: Same to you.

BROWN: Thank you. Good luck with your book. Thank you, sir.

When NEWSNIGHT continues, a lovely end piece tonight, a poem in honor of the workers at Ground Zero. We're right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Yesterday, they took down all the tributes at St. Paul's Chapel that had come in from around the globe. And this is where the volunteers came for nourishment, emotional as well as physical. They put all these tributes away. They will become part of a permanent memorial. And while the tributes can be packed neatly away, the memories and experiences for the workers cannot.

What will they do now? What will it be like to have a normal job after the job they just completed? It's something that moved one of the volunteers to write a poem, a poem that was picked up at the chapel by NEWSNIGHT producer Sarah Coyle, who then tracked down the volunteer, Susan Mucerelli.

And we are glad to say that Susan read the poem for us. And here it is, a "Worker's Lament." (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUSAN MUCERELLI: The Worker's Lament.

It's over soon. There's an element of fear in the air. My God, what do we do now? Where do we go? Who will listen? Don't they know that it's not nearly over? Yes, our lives have gone on. We do what we must, we do what we can.

In slow motion, in distracted thought. We feel the distance of others. Most are gone. They are healed. It's but a lingering whisper to them. They do not hear intently.

So many souls. So much dust. Why is it so easy to walk away? One more red eyed worker sore, bone tired, speaks of his dreams. I hear people screaming in there. I hear the pain, the terror. I don't know them. I pick up their broken bicycles, their cars, their gnarled and twisted mess of their offices. The parts, parts of their bodies, unknown, yes.

But someone's love, I know. I found the ring. And dear God, I hear their pain. I cry as I walk by day after day. Not for one, but for so many. Who will hear when you are gone? Who will stop to listen? Who will understand?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Some day this stuff's going to break our hearts, but not yet. That's all. We'll see you tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. Good night.

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