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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Suicide Bomber Strikes Israel Again; Trial Underway in Danielle van Dam Case

Aired June 05, 2002 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: And good evening again, everyone.

A week that was supposed to be about moving towards something like peace in the Middle East has quickly turned into something else. There was a suicide bombing, and now tonight the Israelis have moved back into Ramallah, back to the Arafat compound. And the cycle, which never really seems to end, is on again.

All of this leads us to what we really wanted to talk about here tonight, the story of two men, both with grievances, whose impact and tactics could not have been more different.

We saw the impact of one of them today, or perhaps the aftermath is a better word. A young Palestinian whose anger at Israel was so overwhelming, so blinding, that he drove alongside a bus, exploded his car, and killed 17 people. Witnesses at the scene say a man and a woman embraced as they died, trapped inside that burning bus.

And then there is this young man, 13 years ago today, the hand raised in defiance, an image beamed around the world that, in a flash, humiliated the Chinese government and how it treats its own people.

It is tragic to think that Hamsa Simoodi (ph), the bomber named by the Islamic Jihad, believed he would become a hero by becoming a killer, that he would live on in the memory of his people. Perhaps he even will. That's even more troubling.

The tank man, however, will live on in the memory of the entire world, the conscience of the whole world, every man, woman, and child who understands real courage and values freedom.

And to this day, we do not know his name. Nor do we have to.

On we go tonight to the whip, and it begins, as we're sure you've figured out, in Jerusalem, Jim Bittermann is there on a very busy morning.

Jim, the headline from you.

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Yasser Arafat is under siege again, his compound stormed by Israeli troops early this morning. One person is dead, according to reports, and at least 20 seriously injured. Aaron?

BROWN: Jim, back to you in a flash. This -- the Mideast was on the agenda at the White House, but not like this.

The reaction from our senior White House correspondent. John, a headline from you.

JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, profound frustration. They are still here at the White House scrambling tonight to try to get a sense from Israel just what the mission is as those troops go back into the Arafat compound in Ramallah. But they say they do know this, already difficult diplomacy planned for this weekend now much more difficult for the president yet again.

BROWN: John, thank you. And we are back with you in a moment as well.

A dramatic day in the trial of the man accused of killing 7-year- old Danielle van Dam in San Diego. Thelma Gutierrez is out West covering that for us.

Thelma, your headline tonight.

THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, it was a very long, tough, and emotional day for Damon Van Dam. He was the father of 7- year-old Danielle van Dam, who was kidnapped and murdered, Aaron.

BROWN: Thank you, Thelma. Back with all of you shortly.

Also coming up in the hour ahead, we'll try and give you as many voices on the possible situation in Israel. We'll get some perspective from Robin Wright, the chief diplomatic correspondent for "The Los Angeles Times." We'll also hear from a spokesman from the Israeli consulate and the chief Palestinian representative in the United States as well.

Even if the Israelis were not storming his compound, the question is vital to answer. Who will eventually succeed Yasser Arafat? We'll take a look at some possible successors tonight.

And at the end of the program, we'll all need something lighter, and tonight we'll meet a modern-day Jesse James, literally. This one's a lot more law-abiding than the old one. And he is on the rise.

All of that in the hour ahead, not exactly the program we thought we were going to do late this afternoon. The world has a way of changing things.

We begin with the crisis in Israel, which followed a horrifying and, let's admit it, a predictable path today. The suicide bombing this morning, the Israeli response tonight.

The suicide attack was on a bus, the dead mostly soldiers. The response, the Israelis moved into Ramallah, and again, it seems, to the Yasser Arafat compound. It is very early in this. The implications are not yet clear. The Israeli intentions are not yet known. But the ante has clearly been raised yet again.

So we begin our coverage with Jim Bittermann back in Jerusalem.

Jim, good evening to you.

BITTERMANN: Good evening, Aaron.

Just as you mention, in fact, there is no clear intention that one can determine by what's happened tonight. In fact, the heavy shooting has -- the heavy firing has only stopped about 15 minutes ago. There's still some small-arms fire being heard around the Arafat compound.

At about 2:00 this morning, 30, more -- the more tanks and APCs surrounded the compound and started going in. As they went in, they fired some people said as many as 30 artillery rounds into the compound itself. A number of buildings were damaged, a sky bridge connecting two of Arafat's offices were damaged. One building, or the third floor above Arafat's office, apparently was completely destroyed. Also, we understand, bullets struck his office and his bedroom.

Now, Saeb Erakat, who is the chief negotiator for the Palestinians, said all of this was a dangerous escalation in the Middle East events. He said that he had fears for Arafat's safety. Gideon Meir, however, the Israeli government spokesman, said that Arafat is not the target.

Still, all day long, you know, many people here, including government ministers, have mentioned the possibility that the Israeli government might try to expel Arafat to some other country. I asked Saeb Erakat earlier this evening, the PLO chief negotiator, what kind of impact that would have, an expulsion of Yasser Arafat.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAEB ERAKAT, CHIEF PALESTINIAN NEGOTIATOR (on phone): I think this will be the most strategic mistake Israel will ever commit. This will be the most stupidest mistake, actually, that Israel will commit, because, you know, they can say whatever they want to say about President Arafat, he is the elected leader of the Palestinian people.

He as the elected leader of the Palestinian people have made the agreement with the Israelis to have recognized the state of Israel. And I think if the Israelis will move to kill President Arafat or to deport President Arafat or to harm President Arafat, I think this will be the greatest mistake Israel will ever commit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BITTERMANN: Now, Gideon Meier, the government spokesman, said later this evening that, in fact, the response in Ramallah is the minimum Israelis can do as an active self-defense after the massive, vicious terrorist attacks on civilians in Israel. And in part, he must have been referring to the attack that occurred earlier today in northern Israel, when a suicide bomber drove his car alongside of a loaded bus headed from Tel Aviv to points north in Israel and blew himself and the bus up.

Seventeen people were killed, more than three dozen were injured, some of them seriously. Among the 17, there were 13 soldiers.

The rescue workers at the scene said they had rarely seen such an intense blast and such an intense fire following the blast, it -- that occurred in northern Israel.

So that was what the cause was for the reaction tonight. Ariel Sharon says that he's going to postpone his departure from Israel by one day. He's supposed to fly to Washington to see President George Bush on Monday. He's postponing his departure now until Saturday, but he'll still see President Bush on Monday.

Aaron?

BROWN: All right, Jim, quickly, Gideon Meier says Arafat not the target. Does he say what is the target?

BITTERMANN: Totally not clear. One of the things that's a bit confusing about this action tonight is that a number of bulldozers have been brought along with the tanks and APCs that attacked the compound this evening, and those bulldozers have already started heaping up earth around the compound.

So it may not be that they're looking to evacuate Arafat or expel him to some other location but it may be that they're trying to put him under siege once again. He has only been out of siege about five weeks. He got out of his siege, thanks to American government help, on May 2.

So he's only been a free man for about five weeks, and now he is under siege again tonight.

Aaron?

BROWN: Jim, thank you. Jim Bittermann in Jerusalem.

Today's suicide attack comes after the director of the CIA visited with Arafat and ahead of visits to the United States by Prime Minister Sharon, as Jim just mentioned, and also by Egypt's President Hosni Mubarak. Perhaps those small steps towards peace motivated the planners of the suicide bombing. That is possible, it's happened before. And of course it is a reminder that whatever the plan or process the White House envisions for the Middle East, someone or some group can and probably will try and stop it.

We go back to our senior White House correspondent, John King.

John, it must be a little bit frantic there tonight.

KING: Exactly right, Aaron. Breaking news for us, but in many ways a recurrent nightmare for the president of the United States.

Mr. Bush was in casual clothes tonight. It was the 7:00 hour. He was just about to go out and give a brief pep talk to a congressional picnic, an annual affair here at the White House, previously scheduled for September 11, rescheduled for today.

Just before the president went outside, his deputy national security adviser, Steve Hadley, knocked on the door and told him the Israeli troops were rolling once again into Ramallah. Until just a short time ago, the national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, working the phones here at the White House, late at night, trying to get a sense from Israel as to just what is the mission, just how long will those troops be there.

As Jim Bittermann said, is the target Yasser Arafat? White House officials saying they are still trying to gather more answers, but they say it is without question that this will complicate the president's planned weekend of Middle East diplomacy.

President Mubarak, as you noted, is here in Washington, staying across the street from the White House tonight. He sees the vice president tomorrow, the president over the weekend. Prime Minister Sharon due here on Monday. U.S. officials even before the military response tonight saying it was the president's view that it was not time, still too many disagreements between the parties, for Mr. Bush to put a new American plan on the table.

Instead, plans for just more consultations. Now, of course, consultations amid more violence. And even again, even before the troops rolled into Ramallah, this administration escalating its already biting criticism of the Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat, the press secretary, Ari Fleischer, saying the president has never considered Mr. Arafat someone who had played a role of someone who can be trusted or effective. Mr. Fleischer making clear the administration was looking to find a new generation of Palestinian leadership.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: From the president's point of view, it's not the business of the United States to pick the leaders of the Palestinian people. Chairman Arafat is the leader of the Palestinian Authority. What the president is interested in is results, from whatever corner they may come from. If that's Chairman Arafat, that's fine with the president. If it's others, that's fine with the president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Still, despite that new criticism of Arafat, senior White House officials stressing to us tonight, they believe it would be dramatically counterproductive if the goal of this Israeli military operation now under way was to send Mr. Arafat, expel him from the territories.

Aaron?

BROWN: John, thank you. We'll let you break away and do some reporting. If you come up with anything, let us know.

We turn now to Robin Wright, who's the chief diplomatic correspondent for "The Los Angeles Times," and obviously spent a lot of time working this lately.

Robin, it's nice to see you.

What do you make of this tonight?

ROBIN WRIGHT, CHIEF DIPLOMATIC CORRESPONDENT, "THE LOS ANGELES TIMES": Well, I think the administration is really under the gun. This -- these two events, the bombing in Megiddo and the counterstrike by the Israelis in Ramallah really come at the worst possible time.

The administration has been trying since April 4 to jump-start the peace process, to get things moving, Powell's -- Secretary of State Powell's trip to the region, more recent negotiations in Washington with an array of Middle East leaders. And this comes at what was supposed to be the tail end of those consultations with the Egyptian president and the Israeli prime minister.

The administration hoping to get some kind of conference, international conference, organized for the beginning or some part of July, and of course rather than being -- looking forward, the administration now is just trying to prevent the situation from escalating into another round of raging tit-for-tat violence.

BROWN: You think that the -- that international meeting, whatever it was supposed to ultimately be, is still a live concept tonight?

WRIGHT: I think that you will find over the next four days, as the administration hosts the Israeli and Egyptian leaders, that the administration will emphasize that it is still trying to get everyone together.

They believe that actually the cards have never been better. You have the Arab world for the first time talking about recognizing Israel, formal ties and trade, the Palestinians pledging to do -- the -- take steps against extremists.

The problem is, you know, Yasser Arafat hasn't followed through, or hasn't been able to follow through, whichever is the case. And...

BROWN: The other -- I'm sorry. The other problem, it's always seemed to me, is that in that deck of cards, as good as they may be, there's always a joker or two who can, in a moment's notice, upset the whole hand.

WRIGHT: The rule of thumb in the Middle East for the 30 years that I've covered it is that events on the ground always overtake diplomacy, and this administration is discovering just how true that is once again.

BROWN: Is Mubarak going to pressure the president pretty hard on setting some sort of date certain to establish a Palestinian state?

WRIGHT: The Egyptians have a very strong message to President Bush about both a timetable to get -- to offer some kind of prospect of hope to the Palestinians so that this can pull the rug out from underneath the extremists who are launching these attacks. They want some sense that the administration will have something tangible.

The Israelis, on the other hand, want to say, Let's take one step at a time, let's not look -- talk about the last step before we talk about the first one. So that there's a real difference, not only in the substance of what both sides want, but also the process in getting there.

BROWN: Six weeks ago, I would have said to you that I think the administration now believes they need to marry security and politics, and a political solution into one package. I'm not so sure tonight that that's where the administration is. Is it still there?

WRIGHT: The administration is trying to cater to both needs, the political aspirations of the Palestinians married with Israel's security concerns. And I think that will continue to be the focus, that they will continue to argue that this is, you know, unavoidable. You cannot do one without the other, whatever the insistence or whatever the actions of either party.

BROWN: Last question, half a minute, is the administration on the same page in this? The administration is not always, depending on if you were at the Pentagon or the State Department, vice president's office, agreed on what American policy ought to be. Where are they today?

WRIGHT: I think that probably the area of biggest disagreement is about Arafat himself, the White House sending out very stark words about Yasser Arafat and talking about approaching a new generation of leaders.

The State Department, much more attuned to the concerns of the Arab world and the fact that Arafat was selected by the Palestinian people, has emphasized that the United States can't be in the position of deciding who leads the Palestinians.

BROWN: Robin, thank you. Robin Wright, the chief diplomatic correspondent for "The Los Angeles Times," joining us from Washington. Nice to talk to you, thank you.

WRIGHT: Thank you.

BROWN: We're going to take a break. When we come back, later in the program, by the way, we'll take a look at this question of who succeeds Arafat, when and if that day comes. Well, it will come eventually, won't it?

Next on NEWSNIGHT, the Israeli and the Palestinian side on today's events and where it takes us.

This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Both the Israeli and the Palestinian perspective in this segment on what has happened, what led up to it, where it all leads. Ido Aharoni is the spokesman for the consulate here in New York, the Israeli consulate in New York. And we begin with you. Nice to see you.

What -- have you talked to your government? Do you know what its intention is here in Ramallah?

IDO AHARONI, SPOKESMAN, ISRAELI CONSULATE: Well, we don't have the entire situational picture at hand right now. But we do know that the military objective, which is limited in nature, is to keep them on the run, all the time, to make sure that the people who are interested in carrying out more acts of terrorism and violence do not have the ability, to deny them from that ability to take the time out, to regroup, and try to carry out more attacks.

BROWN: Are you going after Arafat?

AHARONI: Well, Arafat was never the target, not before, and I believe that he's not the target now.

BROWN: Are you going to hold him in that compound, as you did before?

AHARONI: Well, the military objective, as I said, in general, is to fight terrorism, to dismantle terrorism infrastructure emanating from his own turf. None of this would have happened if Yasser Arafat would have done what he was supposed to be doing under the agreement.

BROWN: I understand that, and I mean this respectfully. It's a -- that's a pretty direct question. Do you know if the plan is to hold him in that compound again?

AHARONI: Well, as I said before, the military objective in general is to dismantle terrorism infrastructure. Yasser Arafat provided us so far with nothing but nice statements. We judge Yasser Arafat ultimately by his deeds and not by his words. Yasser Arafat talked about implementing a comprehensive reform. We've seen nothing. Yasser Arafat talked about dismantling terrorism infrastructure. We've seen nothing. Yasser Arafat talked about stopping incitement, stopping educating their children to hate Israelis and Jews. We've seen nothing so far.

BROWN: You know, if I were making the Palestinian argument, I don't need to here, Mr. Rahman will shortly, one of the things I might say is, you guys, the Israelis, pretty much took out the Palestinian security forces, and it had only been five weeks, and how much can the guy do? Is your expectation reasonable, or are you just setting him up? He's a good and convenient bad guy. And is -- every -- no matter what happens, you're going to blame him.

AHARONI: Two answers to your question.

BROWN: Sure.

AHARONI: The first is, in early 1996, Yasser Arafat did crack down on terrorism infrastructure. In fact, he was so effective and efficient doing so that they didn't recover for months, and Islamic Jihad until late 1997. The second answer is, that Yasser Arafat controls directly some 50,000 armed people, while Hamas and Islamic Jihad all together at best, we're looking at a few hundred.

So Yasser Arafat and his people have the ability, they just don't have the desire.

BROWN: It's nice to see you, thank you. I appreciate how difficult it is to get information in moments like this, and thanks for coming in on short notice.

AHARONI: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you.

To Washington now, the other side, Hassan Abdel Rahman, a frequent -- I want to say guest on the program, the chief Palestinian representative in the United States. Nice to see you, sir.

HASSAN ABDEL RAHMAN, CHIEF PLO REPRESENTATIVE IN THE UNITED STATES: Thank you.

BROWN: Quick take on what is happening there. What do you think is going on?

RAHMAN: I think the objective of the Israeli government is really to delay the diplomatic efforts and to sabotage all this international work that has been done in the last few weeks to put things back on track. Mr. Sharon is opposed to it. He finds a pretext in the operation that was directed together against mostly Israeli soldiers by a fringe Palestinian organization.

Yasser Arafat is not responsible. He was the first to condemn it. But Israel, of course, does not want to hear the fact. Israel want to find a pretext in order to undo and damage whatever political process is being put back on track.

BROWN: Mr. Rahman, in fairness, what has happened over the last several weeks, it seems to me sitting here, is this. There's been a series of attacks. There've been a number of people, some of them military, but most of them civilian, who have been killed in these attacks. The Palestinian leadership, every time that happens, comes running out and says, We oppose this, we oppose this, this is terrible. But the fact is, the attacks go on.

And the Israeli government position is, Stop the attacks. We don't care what you say, we care what you do.

RAHMAN: Yes, but Mr. Brown, had anyone watched or counted how many Palestinians have been killed in the last three weeks? We have 80 Palestinians killed at the hands of the Israeli army. Israel never left the West Bank and Gaza. Israel arrested over 6,000 people in the last five weeks alone.

So what are we talking about here? So it was not, quiet on one side and not-quiet on the other side. Israel continues its criminal behavior against the Palestinians in the territories. And there are some Palestinians who want to avenge the killing of Palestinians.

So Jihad Islami (ph) is doing that. We are telling Mr. Sharon, let's break this cycle of violence. Stop your invasion of Palestinian towns and villages. Move out of your army. Stop building Jewish settlements in the Palestinian territories, and let's go back to the negotiating table.

Israel cannot have their cake and eat it. They cannot continue to kill Palestinians and expect no reaction from Palestinians. We don't like it, we oppose it, we think it is damaging to our cause. But this should not be used as a pretext by the Israeli government to sabotage Mr. Barak's effort, Mr. Tenet's effort, the Saudis effort, the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) effort.

We are hopeful that the diplomatic effort will put us back on track. Mr. Sharon does not like it. He wants to undo it. And I believe that he is using this event as a pretext to do that exactly.

BROWN: OK, Mr. Rahman, that's the Palestinian side. We've heard from both sides. Good to see you again, thanks for joining us.

RAHMAN: Thank you, sir.

BROWN: It always amazes me that almost no matter what happens, the conversations always in some respects feel quite the same.

Anyway, we keep an eye on that as we move on.

What next after Arafat, should that happen? We'll take a look at some of the possibilities as NEWSNIGHT continues on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, given where we've already been tonight, I suppose some of this is a little redundant. But it's been clear for months that one of the Israeli objectives is to get rid of Yasser Arafat. And while no one doubts the Israelis could get rid of him, exile or worse, neither the United States nor the international community would be very happy, at least not publicly.

But removing Arafat is a goal, and there are men, younger men in waiting, who may or may not be better for the Israelis to deal with should somehow Arafat leave the stage.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): At best, Yasser Arafat is an old man. At worst, he is a man who is losing his grip on power, power that has been virtually unchallenged for more than a quarter of a century.

JIBRIL RAJOUB, WEST BANK SECURITY CHIEF: When the Israelis destroyed the hope of the Palestinian people, when the Israelis stopped the progress in the peace process, I think that frustration, disappointment, led to the reaction, not in Jenin but everywhere.

BROWN: And this man is just one of several who might someday, perhaps even soon, replace him. He's Jibril Rajoub, Palestinian security chief in the West Bank.

Or perhaps it will be this man, the rival security chief in the Gaza strip, Mohammed Dahlan, the one with the largest number of Palestinian fighters under his control.

Or you might be wise to place your bet on this man. His credentials, from the Palestinian point of view, are impeccable. He's Marwan Barghouti, and he has been in an Israeli jail for the past several weeks.

HENRY SIGMAN, SENIOR FELLOW, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: He is seen as a product of the people, and he also sat in Israeli jails, which is where he learned Hebrew. And therefore he has an easy rapport with, oddly enough, with Israeli leaders, more so than the older generation, because he can talk to them in Hebrew. He has a deep appreciation, as most younger-generation Palestinians do, of Israeli democracy.

BROWN: This talk of the future is being fueled by a reality of the present. Yasser Arafat is no longer as popular as he once was. His political support among Palestinians sits at about 35 percent for a variety of different reasons.

SIGMAN: They're deeply frustrated because the goals that they assumed were set by his government for the Palestinian people, namely, ending the occupation, establishing a Palestinian state, but also having a truly democratic and participatory government, none of these goals have been achieved.

BROWN: But, Yasser Arafat didn't survive this long without knowing how to navigate the often insidious and dangerous politics of Palestine. Just recently, some of his own followers tried to reduce his role.

SIGMAN: They came there to demand reform and, more specifically, that he assumed the position of president in a more symbolic manner, and allow a new executive, a prime minister, to take over by changing the government into a parliamentary system. He, essentially, threw them out of his office.

BROWN: Which is a reminder that the old man is, above all, a survivor and well may survive this crisis, too.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(on camera): And this crisis too now includes being under siege in his compound in Ramallah. Our coverage of the Middle East tonight.

Later on the program, Danielle van Dam's father testifies about the night she disappeared in San Diego. And up next, should the U.S. government be fingerprinting some foreign visitors. The Bush administration plan, we'll give you the details on that and talk about it some as NEWSNIGHT continues from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Not sure what is going to happen now.

More than 200 years ago, the president of the time, John Adams, signed the Alien Sedition Act which allowed the federal government to report aliens dangerous to the peace and safety of the United States. It wouldn't be the last time the threat of war caused extreme measures to be taken against aliens living in this country, and each one of them has been extremely controversial.

The latest comes today. The attorney general, John Ashcroft, announcing a plan to fingerprint thousands of foreign visitors to the United States. Not every foreign visitor, just some. And therein lies the rub. Here's CNN's Kelli Arena.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The controversial new regulations are aimed at fingerprinting, photographing and otherwise tracking what the attorney general calls "high-risk visitors who might be terrorists."

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: This system will expand substantially America's scrutiny of those foreign visitors who may pose a national security concern and enter our country. And it will provide a vital line of defense in the war against terrorism.

ARENA: It's expected that 100,000 visitors would be checked in the first year alone from countries that the U.S. says sponsor state terrorism. And others, but Ashcroft refused to name them.

Sources say the regulations will focus on young men from Middle Eastern countries, which could include Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Pakistan and Somalia.

And that has Muslim-American groups seething.

NIHAD AWAD, COUNCIL ON AMERICAN ISLAMIC RELATIONS: Richard Reid will not fit the profile. John Walker will not fit the profile. And that tells us that terrorism comes in all colors and races, and you should not just focus on one ethnicity and one race. It is pure form of racism.

ARENA: New arrivals will be processed at U.S. ports of entry and be required to register with the INS after 30 days in the United States to make sure they're not lying about why they came.

Skeptics say the plan simply will not work.

JEANNE BUTTERFIELD, AMERICAN IMMIGRATION LAWYERS ASSOCIATION: People who really intend to come to do us harm are not going to be deterred by a voluntary requirement that you report after 30 days. They're simply not going to show up.

ARENA: What's more, immigration lawyers warn the regulations will cause a bureaucratic nightmare, causing backlogs at air and seaports.

Supporters, though, say it's worth it.

REP. MARK FOLEY (R), FLORIDA: We know the countries that terrorists are spawned from. And I think to tighten, if you will, the security and ensure the safety of Americans is going to require some inconvenience.

ARENA (on camera): As for people who meet the guidelines who are already in the United States, anti-terror teams will help immigration officials track them down and register them. Those in violation will face a variety of penalties, including fines and possible deportation.

Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Joining us now to talk about this new plan, David Ray of the Federation for American Immigration Reform, the group supporting the proposal; and Jean AbiNader of the Arab American Institute, who among other things, believe racial profiling won't help security. They join us from Washington tonight. Nice to see both of you.

Jean, I have the feeling that, actually, you wouldn't mind if this happened if it happened overseas before these young men, and I think they're going to be young men, get to the country.

JEAN ABINADER, MANAGING DIRECTOR, ARAB AMERICAN INSTITUTE: Yes. I think the premise of pulling people aside in lines when they enter the United States really smacks of not the kind of impression we want to make on people when they come to this country.

I think, you know, visas are issued at consulates and embassies overseas. And this is where we can do really good background checks. This is where the information resides. We have got to invest money in our embassies overseas to have the right kind of people there, where these fingerprinting exercises and photographic exercises can be done in the countries. And that makes a heck of a lot more sense and makes it seem not that you're signaling out certain groups because of their ethnicity or their origin.

BROWN: That's the other side of your argument, is that it is going to be a humiliating experience, right?

ABINADER: It doesn't have to be a humiliating experience. You know, we've gone through lots since September 11th. And in general, I think most people in the law enforcement services and the airlines have tried to do a pretty good job. But just as the lawsuits that came out yesterday showed, there have been a lot of breakdowns.

And this is a very critical area, this area of saying, we've got to tighten up law enforcement without really showing that this is going to be an effective law enforcement tool.

BROWN: David, let me turn next to you then. Does it make you at all uncomfortable that in a world of people who harbor bad feelings about the United States, to be honest, that we've selected -- the countries selected one group and not everyone to keep track of in this way?

DAVID RAY, FEDERATION FOR AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM: Well, it's important to note that the attorney general's program is the first step in a program that by 2005 will require all foreign visitors coming to the United States to voluntarily submit to having their fingerprints taken and so that the United States government can focus on who's coming into the country, why they're coming here, how long they stay and making sure that they leave. If we don't have some sort of entry/exit control, then we're going to have no border security whatsoever and...

BROWN: David, I don't mean to interrupt, though clearly I am. I'm not sure how this helps ensure that people who are on short-term visas leave the country. Maybe it raises a red flag if they don't leave, but it doesn't help find them.

RAY: Well, that's the second part, the follow-up step that the INS really needs to take. We, first of all, have to establish the entry-exit system to see whether people are leaving or not. And then the attorney general alluded today to a program whereby state and local officials, if they come across people who haven't left -- who have overstayed their visas and are illegally in the United States for whatever reason -- if they're pulled over by state and local law enforcement officials, then the immigration service could take charge at that point.

It's just good common sense law enforcement. And it's a good step in the right direction if we're ever going to get control of our immigration problem in this country.

BROWN: And would you just address, please, the point Jean made. I assume you would have no problem at all if this fingerprinting and photographing and all the rest was done in embassies and consulates overseas. You just want it done, right?

RAY: We just want it done, and it should be applied to everyone. Unfortunately, you know, the INS is a beleaguered organization. It's strapped. And so the attorney general is trying to take one step in the right direction.

But, you know, the underlying truth is that this is a completely voluntary process for people who are currently in the United States. We're asking them to come forth and submit to fingerprinting. If they don't want to, staying in the United States or leaving is their own option.

But it's necessary to prevent another September 11 attack to have some sort of handle on who it is who's coming into the United States, why they're here and when they're going home.

BROWN: Well, that's the source of some, I think, disagreement, too. Jean, do you believe, whatever you may think of the form this takes, that this will, in fact, make the country more secure?

ABINADER: There's no basis on which to make that claim. I wish it were true. But we know, for example, in the late '70s we registered 300,000 Iranians in this country. It didn't prevent all of the experiences -- the bad experiences we had in Iran. But it certainly proved that the people who were here from Iran in this country turned out to be good citizens and good visitors to this country.

And I think we're going to find the same thing out about the Arabs and Muslim people who are here. They're here because they want to be in the United States because this is a country that's attractive to them. And by erecting these barriers, what we're doing is we're creating obstacles to good relations with these people, and creating suspicion in the minds of regular Americans as to why they're being targeted by the U.S. government.

BROWN: Well, I mean the truth is, Jean, everybody knows why they're being targeted: because 3,000 people died at the 11th of September, and the perpetrators were from the Arab world.

ABINADER: Yes, but we both know that the profiles that have been developed are much more complex and much more rich than that.

Unfortunately, this kind of tends to simplify it in the way it's being presented.

BROWN: Thank you. Fair point, both of you. Nice job tonight; thank you both.

We'll take a break. When we come back, the trial of Danielle van Dam -- or the killer of this young child. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Tough day in court today for the father of Danielle van Dam. Not only did he have to testify about the night his daughter disappeared, he had to talk about, in the most intimate way, his lifestyle.

He's CNN's Thelma Gutierrez.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): More than four hours on the stand for the father of a murdered little girl.

DAMON VAN DAM, DANIELLE'S FATHER: And after the police let us back into the house, I asked the room -- I asked the room not be cleaned. So we put one of the dog gates up and put a do not enter sign on the door.

UNIDENTIFIED JUDGE: Do you need a moment, or are you able to continue?

VAN DAM: I'll try. I'll try.

GUTIERREZ: And sometimes you got the impression he was the one on trial.

STEVEN FELDMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Now does that mean you, in fact, did agree with Brenda to withhold information from the police?

VAN DAM: I do not recall.

GUTIERREZ: Damon van Dam, the father of 7-year-old Danielle van Dam. Taken from her bed, then murdered, then dumped.

JEFF DUSEK, PROSECUTOR: The evidence in this case that we will present will focus on David Westerfield.

GUTIERREZ: The prosecution says they have physical evidence: Danielle's blood, hair, and fingerprints to prove David Westerfield is the killer.

FELDMAN: And you lied to the police, isn't that true?

VAN DAM: Moments before being told the gravity of the situation and how important it was, yes, I did.

GUTIERREZ: But defense attorney Steven Feldman says many people could have had access to Danielle because of her parents' lifestyle. Details, he says, they didn't reveal to police at first.

VAN DAM: Many details were left out of what I told the first officer.

FELDMAN: Among the details that you left out, were your marijuana use the night preceding, isn't that true?

VAN DAM: Yes.

FELDMAN: The fact that Barbara Easton had gotten into bed with you the night before. That's true, isn't it?

VAN DAM: Yes.

GUTIERREZ: Barbara Easton and Denise Kemel (ph) are two of the women who went out with Brenda van Dam the last night Danielle was seen alive.

Damon testified on other occasions he had been intimately involved with both.

FELDMAN: With regard to Denise Kemel, when did you have sexual relations with Denise Kemel?

VAN DAM: October, 2000, I believe.

FELDMAN: And since then?

VAN DAM: None.

FELDMAN: With regard to Barbara Easton, I think you told us you only have sexual relations with her on one time. Was that your testimony, sir?

VAN DAM: Yes. GUTIERREZ: But are these sordid details important to the case? Some legal analysts say, absolutely.

JUSTIN BROOKS, LEGAL ANALYST: It's a legitimate inquiry as to the lifestyle surrounding the parents, because it's relevant to the control over the child.

GUTIERREZ: As his testimony wrapped up, van Dam denied obstructing the investigation in any way, and said he is a grieving father.

VAN DAM: I have opened my private life up and given every detail possible to try and get my daughter back, and now to get justice for her.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GUTIERREZ: Brenda van Dam is expected to take the stand perhaps as early as tomorrow. If she does testify, she will likely be asked the same tough and very personal questions about her life.

Aaron, back to you.

BROWN: Tell me, as you watched this testimony and this -- these intimate revelations, does the jury react at all?

GUTIERREZ: That's a great question, Aaron. But I've got to tell you that we have not been in the courtroom for most of that time, although some of the people who have been observing the jurors, they said that the jurors squirmed a few times and that, at one point, when autopsy photographs came out, that people tended to look away.

But I would imagine that it would make one squirm.

BROWN: I would too. Thank you Thelma, very much. Thelma Gutierrez in San Diego tonight.

Next on NEWSNIGHT: "On the Rise," an occasional series of ours. Tonight, a man making his mark making motorcycles. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Finally from us tonight, "On The Rise," our occasional series looking at trailblazing entrepreneurs. Tonight, Jesse James. No, not that Jesse James, for goodness sakes. Though this Jesse James is a descendent, he is no outlaw, but he does have a wild west spirit and the wheels to prove it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JESSE JAMES, WEST COAST CHOPPERS: My name is Jesse James. This is West Coast Choppers.

I build motorcycles. I kind of build them, every one of them, like I'm building it for myself. It's hard for me to let them go, which means that I'm pouring a lot into it, you know. I'm doing everything just the way I like it. And I guess, you know, people think that's cool.

We make our own chassis, tanks, fenders, front end, exhaust, wheels. You know, everything but the motor and transmission we make right in the shop here. This is where I work up here. This is like kind of where I do my thing. This is like a blank sheet of canvas where I start.

I used to be a bodyguard. You know, one day came home and said, you know what? I really want to do something I love. And I never thought this would ever pay my bills. I rented a little corner of a friend of mine's shop, which was about the half the size of a garage. And I remember like two days after I was there, two of my friends came in, Jim and Fast Eddie (ph), and I remember exactly what they said. He'll be out of business in a month.

My first clients were a lot of just friends and acquaintances until like people I've never met or seen face-to-face would like send me a check. Did a bike for Shaq, Keanu Reeves, Goldberg, Tony Martin from the Falcons and then just a bunch of other people with lots of money.

Kid Rock and I have actually went back and forth for about a year and we've never really hooked up until finally, you know, a few weeks ago when he came down to see the shop. When someone that walks in here that's never been here and doesn't really know what to expect, it's like Willy Wonka and the motorcycle factory.

KID ROCK, MUSICIAN: Every time you see a bad-ass chopper pull up, everyone is going, is that a Jesse James? Is that a Jesse James? His name just is getting out there. It's all over, man. Guy's like a mini rock star at this point.

JAMES: I get like 20 people a day come in asking how much it is to build them a bike. Have to say they average between three, if I really like you, to like 125 grand.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can buy a brand new Harley for $16,000. That's a down payment on one of these.

JAMES: Bill Harley and Willy (ph) Davidson aren't actually out there making the gas tanks for their bikes or they're not actually out there bending pipes and designing wheels and stuff like that. It's just a name. You know, if someone walks in that door with 100 grand tomorrow and wants a Jesse James bike, Jesse James is actually going to be making it.

It takes a few weeks, but that's so fulfilling. And then what even takes it a step further is when you could jump on it, and I'm going down the freeway and I feel the acceleration and the way the bike works and then I could look down and see my reflection in something that I made. How many people can say that?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Just one, Jesse.

That's the report for tonight. We'll see you all tomorrow night at 10:00 Eastern time. Good night from all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

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