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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Smart's Family Member Faces Scrutiny; Judge Allows Moussaoui to Act as Own Lawyer; Airline Dispatcher May Have Been Deterred From Reporting Reid Incident

Aired June 13, 2002 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, I'm Aaron Brown. You could look at a hotel conference room in Dallas today as maybe the largest confessional booth in the history of the Catholic Church. The sinners were the many Catholic bishops responsible for covering up decades of abuse by priests and they couldn't apologize enough.

Bishop Wilton Gregory, who has taken the lead in this said, by our count, the word "sorry" four times, "apology" three times, and "forgiveness" a whopping nine times. He apologized to everyone imaginable in this horrible mess and, of course, the victims were the first in line.

But we found ourselves stuck on something said last night on this program. It was one of those things said it an interview that went by too quickly. Father Gary Hayes, himself abused as a child, was hackled by protesters as he walked out of a hotel yesterday, the hecklers assuming, we guess, that he and every other priest was an abuser or an enabler or something.

The latest numbers today show that roughly 250 American priests have left their posts because of abuse accusations. That works out to about one-half of 1 percent of all priests in America. Then remember the numbers out last night in the program from the "Dallas Morning News," two-thirds of the church leadership -- two-thirds -- was found to be protecting this tiny fraction of bad priests.

Even today, amid all their apologies, many say look, we were operating on the best medical advice we have and maybe that is true. But don't you, at its core, believe what really worried the American Catholic leadership was the threat of scandal, which is why even today -- even today -- they still resist opening the files and revoking the gag orders so that Catholics might know how many and how often and how much has been paid out?

We're not Catholics, and perhaps we're not the best ones to judge here, but in that regard it does seem to us the cover-up continues, and that is a sin. We'll have more on that story as we go along tonight.

But we go to "The Whip" and the latest on the case of Elizabeth Smart in Salt Lake City.

Frank Buckley starts us off.

Frank a headline from you.

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, tonight a law enforcement source involved in the Elizabeth Smart investigation tells me that a member of Elizabeth Smart's extended family is under increased scrutiny tonight, after the results of a polygraph exam came back as inconclusive -- Aaron.

BROWN: Frank, thank you. We'll get to you in a moment.

A big development today in the case of the only person charged so far in the September 11 attack, Deborah Feyerick covering that.

Deborah, from Washington, a headline from you.

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, he's accused of being the 20th hijacker, but Zacarias Moussaoui says he's got information that will set him free, he thinks, in the next few days. This, after a judge gives Moussaoui the thumbs-up to act as his own lawyer -- Aaron.

BROWN: Deborah, thank you.

An almost unbelievable story if it all checks out about a whistleblower within American Airlines involved in the case of the alleged shoe bomber Richard Reid. Patty Davis working on that.

Patty a headline from you please.

PATTY DAVIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A dispatcher at the airline says her boss tried to stop her from alerting authorities about the alleged shoe bombing incident as it was happening. She claims her supervisor was worried the plane might get delayed on the ground -- Aaron.

BROWN: Patty, and on to Colorado and the wildfires.

Once again, Charles Molineaux is on that, and tonight, the headline from you.

CHARLES MOLINEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, the firefighters are trying to make the most of yet another day of favorable weather as they battle Colorado's biggest ever wildfire. That's the good news. The bad news is that the instability and threat on some fire fronts continue and the latest word is that this one could be with us until autumn.

BROWN: That is unbelievable. Charles thank you, back with all of you shortly.

Also coming up on the program, someone who probably knows better than anyone in the country what it takes to prosecute terrorists, a former U.S. Attorney here in New York, Mary Jo White. We'll also hear from victims and bishops in the church scandal. They spoke both at the meeting today. Jim Bitterman tonight on the patchwork war zone known as the West Bank, Israel tried to secure itself. The result, neighborhoods carved up, lives rerouted, Palestinian anger growing.

And a very Barbie Segment 7, we'll meet her biggest fan, Dixie Myers (ph) as channeled by our Jason Bellini, all of that coming up in the next 60 minutes.

We begin with the case of Elizabeth Smart, the Salt Lake City teenager who remains missing. Police say they have a number of theories as to how she vanished, but today a single theory is grabbing the headlines, one that focuses on a relative and tonight, we understand better why.

Here again, CNN's Frank Buckley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BUCKLEY (voice over): Tonight, a member of Elizabeth Smart's extended family is under increased scrutiny, after questions were raised by the results of a polygraph exam. A law enforcement source involved in the investigation tells CNN, the results were inconclusive, prompting investigators to take a closer look.

Earlier in the day, police said the theory that a member of Elizabeth's family was involved in her abduction, was just one of many theories being probed.

CAPTAIN SCOTT ATKINSON, SALT LAKE CITY POLICE: I don't think that we're putting any more weight on this particular theory than we have any others.

BUCKLEY: But it was front page news in the "Salt Lake Tribune" and one of Elizabeth's uncles said it was understandable that the family would be scrutinized.

DAVE SMART, UNCLE: As you know in investigations, there are many boxes that need to be checked and we feel that the family box is one of those boxes, and if the police did not do their job, if they did not investigate us, they would not be doing their job. They'd be negligent.

BUCKLEY: Today, Elizabeth's nine-year-old sister, Mary Catherine, was again interviewed by investigators. She was sleeping in the room with Elizabeth and is the only known witness to the abduction.

BUCKLEY (on camera): If it was, in fact, a family member, an extended family member, wouldn't she recognize that person and, if so, why wouldn't you be able to quickly make an arrest?

ATKINSON: That's correct. If she had recognized the person and been able to give us a name or recognize it as being a family member, we believe that she probably would have told us that.

BUCKLEY (voice over): Still, investigators have not ruled out family involvement, but they have virtually ruled out this man, Bret Edmunds, a transient whom police say they are seeking only for questioning. Police say they want to talk to Edmunds because he was seen in the Smart neighborhood a night or two before the abduction and may have noticed something. He is not, they say, a suspect.

ATKINSON: We do not believe that Mr. Edmunds was involved.

BUCKLEY: This evening, police dogs were at the Smart family home, but detectives were saying little about it, only calling it a precaution.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BUCKLEY (on camera): And police continue to say that the family is fully cooperative. Whenever they are asked to provide anything, from DNA samples to submitting to a polygraph exam, they do it in a timely fashion.

And finally, Aaron, the law enforcement source that I talked to tonight said that the theory put forth in the Salt Lake Tribune this morning, that this could be an inside family job, in part because it appears as though, according to the article, the crime scene was staged, is opinion not fact.

This source tells me that the evidence cited in this article, that a window screen appears to have been cut from the inside, rather than the outside, is not backed up by forensic evidence -- Aaron.

BROWN: OK, we've heard that a number of times and so they did say that's not true. Go back to the question for a second that you asked the officer in the piece. If it was a family member, the nine- year-old sister would have known him. He didn't really answer that exactly. What do we make of this then?

BUCKLEY: Yes, you're absolutely right, Aaron. It was sort of a curious response and the response is "well, you're right. We think that if it was a family member, she would recognize this person."

But a couple of things could be in play there. One, it was in the middle of the night. It was dark. The person was wearing a hat. Who knows if the little girl recognized this person or potentially if, in fact, a family member is involved and that's a big if, there could have been some intimidation.

We do know or we've been told since the beginning that this nine- year-old Mary Catherine didn't tell her parents for a couple of hours because she was afraid that Elizabeth would be harmed, so that could be a possible explanation.

But again, it's a huge leap at this point to say that a family member or an extended family member is involved. It's just one of the many theories that police are looking at.

BROWN: Frank, thank you. Frank Buckley in Salt Lake City tonight on the latest developments in Elizabeth Smart. Now Zacarias Moussaoui and a judge's decision today to allow him to act as his own lawyer. For all the reasons that it should not happen, the Constitution, as we'll hear later from former U.S. Attorney Mary Jo White, makes it a pretty simple call.

Defense lawyers know it is a foolish thing for defendants to do. Prosecutors, while their work is likely easier, also know that the trial itself can become a circus when the defendant is the lawyer as well, and there are other issues here too.

More from CNN's Deborah Feyerick.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FEYERICK (voice over): While giving Zacarias Moussaoui the green light to be his own lawyer, the judge called the move rational but unwise. His public defenders called it a disaster.

EDWARD MACMAHON, FORMER MOUSSAOUI ATTORNEY: We still don't believe that Mr. Moussaoui can get a fair trial given the conditions of his confinement and the restrictions imposed upon him by the government in terms of reviewing evidence.

FEYERICK: Moussaoui told the judge he had secret information proving he had nothing to do with the September 11 attacks. The information, he said, would compel the judge to release him immediately, his legal team, now on the sidelines, unaware of what it might be.

FRANK DUNHAM, FORMER MOUSSAOUI ATTORNEY: We don't know why Mr. Moussaoui believes the way he does. It's that belief that caused us to question his mental status.

FEYERICK: Speaking in fluent, heavily-accented English, Moussaoui accused the government of conducting, in his words, "a covert operation against me and potentially the 19 hijackers," claiming the government had been watching him since he arrived in America to take flying lessons. One former prosecutor says Moussaoui's move to represent himself could ultimately work in his favor.

DICK SAUBER, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I do think him representing himself does raise the chances that if there is a death sentence imposed, that that would be scrutinized very carefully by the court of appeals.

FEYERICK: Moussaoui's mother from France was in court to see her son, the first time since his arrest last August. She said he looked tired and gaunt. Moussaoui rejected the lawyer she brought with her, saying while he understood his mother's desire to help, he said she had no understanding of the reality of this case.

RANDY HAMUD, ATTORNEY FOR MOTHER OF ZACARIAS MOUSSAOUI: The duty of a mother is never finished, and I don't think anybody could have said that any better.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FEYERICK: Before her ruling, Judge Leonie Brinkema reminded Moussaoui that four of the six Conspiracy counts against him carry the death penalty and that if he is convicted, the best Moussaoui could hope for was life in prison without parole. Moussaoui's response, "I will never see the light again. I understand this." Aaron.

BROWN: Deborah, thank you. Deborah Feyerick on the Moussaoui case.

A little later in the hour, an interview we did a bit ago with Mary Jo White, the former U.S. Attorney here in New York. It was great experience in prosecuting these terrorism cases because of the first World Trade Center bombing. That's coming up in just a little bit.

A little bit more of news of day first from Colorado, where even the good news, I guess, comes with a footnote. The good news is the winds have blown the massive wildfire a bit farther away from Denver. The footnote, however, is a whopper.

Not everyone -- now everyone, we should say, farther south of Denver is looking straight at a disaster, and even with more help on the way. Officials say this fire could burn until September.

So we go back to CNN's Charles Molineaux for the update.

Good evening.

MOLINEAUX: Good evening. I'll tell you what, Aaron, we're seeing the possibility that it could very well be September because this is a huge fire with many hot spots and a lot of fuel out there in the forest.

However, the Forest Service put it pretty simply this evening, saying that this was actually a pretty good day. Yes, the threat does continue on the extreme southeastern portions of the fire. There was more expansion there and more threat to home.

But it remains at about 90,000 acres and the fact is that it did not advance towards Denver's extreme southwestern suburbs for another day today. That meant another opportunity for firefighters with now the wind at their backs, to create new barriers in its path. Today, we went out on the fire lines and joined the firefighters as they worked to deny this fire another opportunity to go on a rampage.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MOLINEAUX (voice over): These latest reinforcements on the fire lines had to hit the ground running. After coming in from Oregon and California, they dashed out to work, some barely an hour after they arrived.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were on shift and they came in and said "there's a fire in Colorado. Who wants to go?" And we were all jumping up ready to go. MOLINEAUX (on camera): Right now, firefighters are standing guard along a very narrow and small containment line that they have dug here. This is actually meant to contain a much bigger one, which is being built right now using fire itself. They have lit backfires here outside of Becker (ph) to keep the fire from coming down this ridge. Once it does, this fire is under enough control, it will allow the undergrowth to be burned out, dangerous flammable grass, which is bone dry right now, removed from the area, depriving the fire of fuel and setting up a much larger containment line along this hill.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have pretty good-sized trees. These won't last very long. Probably in a couple of hours, they'll be ashes.

MOLINEAUX: And burn out all by itself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

MOLINEAUX (voice over): The sky crane helicopters can be a really welcome sight out on the fire line. As you can see, it's a huge orange color, with its distinctive twin rotor blades as it comes out of the smoke and comes in to drop that huge bucket into the South Platte River. It picks up about 500 to 1,000 gallons of water at a time, a welcome relief on a hot spot. We've got one burning on this ridge right over here. Another challenge is the altitude. These lines are at 6,500 feet and some of these fire crews are from sea level.

JAVIER HERNANDEZ, OREGON FIREFIGHTER: The first couple days, you know, we get out and kind of hike a little bit and work around and it's a little tough on your lungs, but there's a lot of clean air up here. It's good for you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MOLINEAUX: And, of course, these are pretty healthy guys. The latest word is 22 homes have been destroyed by this fire. That's actually unchanged from what we've seen over the past couple of days. Tragic for them, but good news considering that thousands of homes were considered threatened.

Yet again, we're watching the weather forecast. It has been very cooperative today. It's expected to be cooperative again tomorrow. It's actually pretty cool here this evening but, Aaron, the expectation is this evening we can see the weather -- rather, this weekend, we could see the weather start to heat up again, and that is not good news.

BROWN: Charles, thank you. Charles Molineaux outside of Denver, where the fire battle continues, men and women on the fire lines there.

As NEWSNIGHT continues, we'll hear from some of the victims of the priest sexual abuse scandal who spoke today at the bishops' conference in Dallas and some bishops as well.

This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Today, American Catholics got something they have waited for for a year, a message that came with no strings, no passive voice, no Nixon-like turn of a phrase: a simple "we're sorry." It came from the leader of Catholic bishops in Dallas, an extraordinary, and many would say, long overdue gesture. But as one abuse victim said on this program last night, sorry doesn't cut it. It's actions that count.

We won't know the details of the new policy to stop abuse until tomorrow, but what we got today, along with the apology, was a compelling look at why a tough new policy is so desperately needed.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHAEL BLAND, ABUSE VICTIM: He was an adult. He was a priest. I was a minor. He sexually abused me.

CRAIG MARTIN, ABUSE VICTIM: A child who's abused is put in a frightening and confusing situation. They may have never heard of anything like this happening. Nobody's told them it's right. Nobody's told them it's wrong. Everybody may like and respect the person who is doing these things.

BISHOP WILTON GREGORY, PRESIDENT. U.S. CONFERENCE OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS: Both what we have done and what we have failed to do contributed to the sexual abuse of children and young people by clergy and church personnel. The crisis in truth is about a profound loss of confidence by the faithful in our leadership as shepherds.

DAVID CLOHESSY, ABUSE VICTIM: I could describe nights curling up in the fetal position and sobbing hysterically, while my wife, Lori (ph), simply held me and eventually having to get up and change the bed sheets, because they were soaked with tears.

GREGORY: In the name of all of the bishops, I offer a profound apology for the hurt and the embarrassment you have suffered. We ask your forgiveness.

PAULA GONZALES ROHRBACHER, ABUSE VICTIM: Please heed the words of our Holy Father; there is no place in priestly ministry for those who harm children. I urge you to adopt a policy of zero tolerance for all offenders, whether they have abused one child or adolescent or many, whether past, present, or future.

CLOHESSY: Of course, the greatest honor survivors could be given by you gentlemen would be simply, of course, to radically change your behavior, to do what Jesus would do when a deeply-wounded person approached him.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Well you have to understand, I suppose, to some degree the culture of the church to grasp just how stunning the events in Dallas were today. We're pleased to say we have someone who has been covering the church and its culture, the players, for decades.

We're joined from Dallas tonight by Tom Roberts, the editor of the "National Catholic Reporter."

Tom nice to see you. What made it so remarkable in your mind? Why was it such an extraordinary day?

TOM ROBERTS, EDITOR, "THE CATHOLIC REPORTER": The day began, as you pointed out, with the kind of apology that people have been waiting for, not only for a year, but I would say for at least 17 years, since this scandal broke nationwide. This was the unqualified apology where it didn't contain the phrases that said it was only a few priests involved or that it was the culture at large that mattered or that the press drove this.

It was a straightforward, blunt apology and a real recognition by Bishop Gregory that the Catholics, that this scandal had driven a wedge between the Catholics and their leadership. That's a profound recognition at this point.

BROWN: Do you think that...

ROBERTS: What followed that -- I'm sorry.

BROWN: I'm sorry -- do you think that the leadership now understands and embraces, as opposed to paying lip service too, understands and embraces that this scandal has moved away from an individual priest and an individual parish who abuse someone to the leadership itself, that it is the failure of the leadership that has driven this story, this tragedy, for some time now?

ROBERTS: We've said editorially in our own paper, and I think that this is the sense of people in the pews, that this is no longer just a story about sexual abuse.

It has become really a story about the abuse of power, and it was interesting that the speakers that followed that apology R. Scott Appleby and Margaret Steinfels (ph) are both respected and high- profile Catholics in different disciplines. Scott's an academic and Margaret is an editor of "Common Wheel" magazine.

Both started with the sex abuse scandal but went very quickly to this idea that this is a problem of leadership, that this is a real breach of trust and that deeper reforms than a policy that will be issued this week are needed. That's where the sticky part comes, because there really is no mechanics for enacting that kind of reform and Rome isn't viewing reform very favorably these days.

In fact, Margaret Steinfels in her talk said, "we no longer have the luxury of saying we have to wait for the next papacy." So the bishops listened to some really powerful and disturbing stuff today and then those two talks were followed, of course, by the victims and very wrenching stories.

BROWN: I want to talk...

ROBERTS: In that sense, it was a very different kind of a day.

BROWN: I want to talk a bit about the policy, but let me ask you one more question about the day. Have you had a chance to talk to any of the bishops since? Do you have any sense of how they heard all of this today?

ROBERTS: I don't have a great sense of how they heard it. I did talk to one bishop midday. Of course, they've been sort of sequestered, and I think are still meeting; and this may go into the night.

One exchange I had was "you heard a lot of difficult stuff today. It must have been tough being in that room." And the bishop said "it was hell," but he also added this was the best presidential speech, that apology speech, that he has heard in a long time, and he really welcomed the talks by Appleby and by Steinfels. So there may be some shift of mood here.

BROWN: Let's talk about the policy in Rome and try and do them all at the same time if we can. What has happened in the weeks since they floated a draft of the policy? Do we expect any changes in what they floated a week ago and what is the expectation from Rome at this point?

ROBERTS: I think there will be changes in the policy. The expectations from Rome is difficult to read, although we know that there are some high-powered leaders who have made it clear that they think the scandal has been driven by the media, that it's a peculiarly American fascination with this kind of scandal.

They also resist the idea of the zero tolerance policy and I really don't think that the American bishops have any option anymore. In order to satisfy the public clamor for accountability, there has to be some form of zero tolerance policy, and I think it will probably come with, as I was told by somebody who's been close to the negotiations, with a couple of options on what to do with priests who have been accused or convicted of crimes.

BROWN: And we'll get all the details tomorrow, Tom thank you, Tom Roberts the Editor of the National Catholic Reporter joining us from Dallas. It is an extraordinary moment for the church in the United States certainly.

Later on NEWSNIGHT: Should an accused terrorist be allowed to be his own lawyer? What are the problems, particularly in the Moussaoui case? We'll talk with former U.S. Attorney Mary Jo White.

Up next an airline dispatcher, this is an extraordinary story, who says her boss tried to get in the way when she was trying to help a passenger in trouble, in big trouble.

This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: In "1984," George Orwell wrote about a world in which Big Brother is watching. In the year 2002, you can watch what Big Brother is watching. These pictures are taken by U.S. spy planes over Bosnia. NATO peacekeeping forces use them to monitor the truce there, and now you can monitor the truce as well, uncut, unencrypted on a commercial satellite in Europe where this story is getting huge play, one British paper calling it a security lapse.

The Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld shot that down today. He said the pictures revealed no great secrets, none that we can see either, and putting them up on a commercial satellite is no big deal and besides, all the military satellites are busy doing other things.

Even before the 11th of September, experts worried that airlines shortchanged security for fear it would impact the bottom line. Reinforced cockpit doors, for example, were considered too expensive. So were skilled and reliable security checkpoints and the people to man them.

Today it seems almost inconceivable that this mindset has not changed. And the airlines, in fact, say it has, but today an American Airlines dispatcher, who handled the flight the accused shoe bomber Richard Reid was on, presents a compelling and frightening story that suggests something quite different.

Here's CNN's Patty Davis.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVIS (voice-over): American Airlines dispatcher Julie Robichaux claims in her letter to the FAA, a supervisor tried to stop her from alerting authorities about alleged shoe bomber Richard Reid on board this American Airlines flight. She recalled the incident in this union training tape made to help airline crews in similar situations.

JULIE ROBICHAUX: As soon as the dispatcher tells the manager that they have a possible hijacking or bombing on board one of their flights, it should be taken seriously immediately

DAVIS: It was 9:00 a.m. Central time on December 22, when the dispatcher was first alerted to a passenger misconduct situation by the captain. She tells the pilot to divert to Boston. Robichaux says that about 15 minutes later, she was told by the captain the passenger's shoes appeared to have some kind of pyrotechnic device. The dispatcher said she told her supervisor that the crew believed it had found shoe bombs.

In a complaint to the FAA, Robichaux claims her supervisor worried about delays on the ground told her, "it would be forever before we could get the plane out of there if law enforcement got involved."

HANS MANTEL, PILOT, AMERICAN AIRLINES FLIGHT 53: The company's already thinking about where we're going with the aircraft afterward? They want to take it to the gate and go from there immediately.

DAVIS: But Robichaux did get on the phone with NORAAD, the North American Aerospace Defense Command, which scrambled jets to escort the plane. Robichaux says a manager interfered then, too.

ROBICHAUX: And he told me whoever I was talking to, I needed to call him back. I said, "Well, it's NORAAD kind of coordinating this." And he said, "Well, get a number and call him back. You're busy with other flights."

DAVIS: American Airlines says its managers were already on with NORAAD. And it wasn't Robichaux's job to handle security incidents. The airline says that "at no time did we take any disciplinary action against Ms. Robichaux."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DAVIS: Robichaux has asked for federal whistle-blower protection, saying that she has fears retaliation from American for speaking out, Aaron.

BROWN: OK. I want to know what American said here. Did American Airlines, does American Airlines concede that the supervisor that this woman was talking to said it'll be hours or days or months or whatever, before this plane get out of here if law enforcement is involved? Did that conversation occur, according to the airlines?

DAVIS: American Airlines says that it has not yet interviewed that supervisor. And what a spokesperson told me was that there's no way the supervisor would have said such a thing, had he known that there was possibility to have a shoe bomb, that perhaps that conversation took place when the plane was just reporting an unruly passenger. But there's no way the spokesman says, that that supervisor, a long time employee, would have done that -- had the presence of possible explosives been revealed to him.

BROWN: I hope they're right. Patty, thank you. Patty Davis in Washington.

NEWSNIGHT continues with behind the scenes story of a trip to the Barbie convention. That's later on in the hour.

Up next, the Moussaoui case through the eyes of a former top prosecutor and the decision to allow him to be his own lawyer.

This is NEWSNIGHT on a Thursday from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: As we reported earlier in the program, the so-called 20th the hijacker, Zacarias Moussaoui, will act as his own lawyer in his death penalty trial. Mary Jo White is a former U.S. attorney here in New York, who successfully prosecuted a number of high-profile cases, a number of terrorist cases, including the case of those who bombed the World Trade Center in 1993. She knows well the risks of this and the legal realities, even in a death penalty case. And even in this case, where there is highly classified information that the accused, Mr. Moussaoui, will not be allowed to see, whether he acts as his own lawyer or not.

We spoke with Mary Jo White a little bit earlier tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: If I understand the law and the constitution, the judge essentially had no choice but to allow Moussaoui to defend himself.

MARY JO WHITE, FMR. U.S. ATTORNEY: I think that's right. The Constitution is very clear that so long as the defendant understands what he's doing, the pluses and the minuses, that he's entitled to represent himself as a matter of constitutional right. He was found to be competent, mentally competent by the court-appointed psychiatrist. So essentially, the judge didn't have any choice.

BROWN: Now what the framers could not have imagined is that there would be in a case, a lot of highly sensitive classified information that the defendants/lawyer, or at least the person -- you know, he's representing himself, would not have access to. How do you get around that?

WHITE: Well, I think, it hasn't been decided yet. And it certainly is an issue that has to be dealt with correctly. But the stand-by counsel are still in the case. His defense attorneys are in as advisers to him. They have, I believe, security clearances themselves. And so, there could be a procedure worked out, whereby they get access to those materials. But so long as -- it's explained to the defendant that because of the nature of that classified information, one of the things he may give up is not only the right to read that, but to make use of it. And if he still persists in making a knowing decision to represent himself, he may not be able to have access to that.

BROWN: The law and the Constitution don't protect you from being foolish?

WHITE: Essentially, that's right, although the Constitution does require that the judge, as she did here, very carefully explained what it means, the lack of wisdom perhaps of the decision to defend yourself. But once you understand that, and the judge is satisfied you understand it, then you are recognizing the risks you take, the Constitution let's you go forward.

BROWN: Now the other side of this, it seems to me, which would be worrisome to everyone involved, is that it opens up the possibility that Mr. Moussaoui will use this trial and his status now in the trial, to turn it into a political circus.

WHITE: No question about that. I mean, that is at high risk. I think his behavior performance in the pretrial proceedings suggests that's really quite a high risk. The judge does have the power to deal with that, if it occurs. If he can't follow the rules, if he's disrupting the proceedings, she can then decide he can't continue to go forward representing himself. One reason you have stand-by counsel, standing by should they be needed to step in.

BROWN: You had cases in your office, when you were the U.S. attorney here, where defendants defended themselves, right? WHITE: Ramzi Yousef...

BROWN: Yes.

WHITE: ... one the masterminds of the Trade Center bombing defended himself.

BROWN: And did he turn it into a circus?

WHITE: Not at all. He actually decided very late in the Manila air plot, which was the plot to blow up the dozen jumbo jets, to represent himself. And the rules were explained to him. And he behaved himself. And in fact put in a very impressive performance. At sentencing, he had some other things to say, being proud to be a terrorist. But during the proceedings, he was quite well behaved, followed the judge's instructions, did have a stand-by counsel to help him, and proceeded in a very orderly way. Did an excellent job.

BROWN: About a half a minute left. Your office handled what I described to you earlier as the precursor case, the first Trade Center bombing and things that went with it. When you heard about 9/11, how did you react?

WHITE: Devastated, as I think everybody was. And shock as everyone was. No doubt it was bin Laden. Once it was clear it was a terrorist attack. The same was true when the embassies were bombed in '98 in terms of my reaction. We're in this for the long haul, and -- but devastated like everyone else.

BROWN: And there are so many things we could talk about. I hope you'll come back.

WHITE: Absolutely.

BROWN: Thank you. It's nice to see you.

WHITE: Nice to see you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Former U.S. attorney here in New York, Mary Jo White.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

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BROWN: One of the issues that has fueled the violence of recent months in the Middle East is Palestinian anger at what Palestinians believe the Israeli government is doing to the West Bank. Not simply the occupation, as they call it, but slicing the West Bank into smaller pockets, controllable pockets, barbed wire, endless checkpoints, making an already difficult life even harder.

Whether this is good or bad, justified or not, is not the point of the story. Showing you what is happening and the impact on both sides is. Here's CNN's Jim Bitterman.

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JIM BITTERMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the new look of the occupation in the West Bank, growing coils of razor wire that have gone up in the past couple of weeks, and internal boundaries that increasingly seem like international borders. But they are not. These are barriers which separate Palestinian from Palestinian, one part of the West Bank from another. The Israelis have created a permit system to control the movement of people. And they've set up the barriers to make it work.

MAJ. DANIEL BEAUDOIN, COORDINATOR'S OFFICE FOR THE TERRITORIES: We're not making it difficult for them to move around. We're making it possible for them to move around in a reality where we're being shot at on a daily basis.

BITTERMAN: But few would question that the barriers are disrupting the Palestinian economy and lives, barriers sometimes as simple as this: earthen mounds cutting the road length between two Palestinian villages. While the Israelis can speed along a bypass road, the Palestinians, without special permission, are forced to use a smaller crossroad, which has now been cut.

Everything must be off-loaded and carried across by hand or cart and reloaded onto vehicles on the other side. Ali Ahmeidat makes window and door frames. A 15-minute delivery now takes hours. His transportation costs have gone up 10-fold. And his profits have been cut by 75 percent. He says the situation has been like this for four months, and he does not know how much longer he can continue.

Ramallah lawyer Hatim Abbas was rushing to get home to his ailing mother, but he could not get out of the city. So he took a taxi to a suburb, only to discover it is now surrounded by barbed wire. He managed to find a way across, but then faced a long, hot walk, unless someone gave him a ride. Israel says all these new internal barriers between Palestinian communities are necessary in the name of security for its citizens, no matter what it does to those in the West Bank.

BEAUDOIN: We are not operating in a vacuum. We're not operating in a -- I call it in a sterile atmosphere. We're operating in an atmosphere of unprecedented violence in the West Bank. And that makes movement difficult.

BITTERMAN: It is not just Palestinians who are angry with the restrictions on movement. The international community is, too. Food and aid deliveries have been disrupted, thousands of employees often cannot get to work, and diplomats have been stopped and searched.

RICHARD COOK, DIRECTOR, UNRWA WEST BANK OPERATIONS: We cannot predict whether we will reach our destination, because of checkpoints. There are many checkpoints throughout the West Bank. At any one time, up to 200 of them. And so, we can never be sure that we will actually reach our destination. And once having reached it, whether our people would get back. BITTERMAN: Palestinian map-maker Khalil Tfakji (ph) believes the Israelis are working toward permanent division of the West Bank into eight non-contiguous cantons, centered around eight major cities, something the Israelis flatly deny. But there is little denying another of Tfakji's (ph) contentions -- that construction is now under way of a major east-west road, with wide security zones, that will cut straight across the West Bank, dividing north from south, the first of what he fears will be many.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Daily confiscated land, daily cutted more trees, daily a new military order to close this or that area, daily we speak about new roads which are under construction.

BITTERMAN: And, daily, too, according to aid workers here, the frustrations of those being penned in are growing with what Palestinians say is the strangulation of the West Bank.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is so-called strangling the West Bank today is the Palestinian Authority's consistent wave of terror and incessant wave of terrorism attack. They are holding the Palestinian population hostage, not we. It is strange. Sometimes we have the impression that we want to help the population more than Palestinian Authority wants to help its occupation.

BITTERMAN: No doubt there are many in the occupied territories who would disagree. The new measures are not meant to control movements off the West Bank, but nonetheless, the Israeli military insists the internal closures disrupt terrorist networks and deter terrorists from reorganizing.

(on camera): The Israelis say all of this is only temporary, that it will be removed when it's no longer needed. But as one long time international observer of the 35 years of occupation put it, temporary things here have a way of becoming permanent ones.

Jim Bittermann, CNN, at the Iran checkpoint in the West Bank.

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BROWN: And still ahead on the program tonight, the program that brought you the Pez anniversary goes to the Barbie convention undercover.

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BROWN: Well now, you can say what you want about our Jason Bellini, and to be honest I probably already have, but you cannot say he's got limited range. The last big thing he did for the program was some unexpected and very impressive coverage of a suicide bombing in Israel. Tonight, Barbie. Yes, that Barbie, that pint-sized icon who has her own national convention, which this year is in Denver, Colorado.

Now this is not one of those events you can just parachute into. It has its own language, its own culture, its own rules. And so, to tell the Barbie story, you really have to find a native, the super-fan to guide you through it, which is how Jason met Dixie.

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JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Dixie Myers, a Barbie collector, a Barbie lover, but not a Barbie freak, she wants us to know,

DIXIE MYERS: My daughter says, "I don't play with dolls, but my mom does."

BELLINI: I accepted my camera and my assignment: to capture the essence of the National Barbie Convention.

MYERS: Nobody who comes to this convention is really pretty wishy-washy. I mean, either you love it, or you don't.

BELLINI: It's not just about loving Barbie. It's about buying more and more of her, and her friends.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This would be like one of my holy grails of Midge collecting. It's really calling my name. I don't know if I'll have a husband to come home to if I buy that or not.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is so beautiful.

BELLINI: Here perhaps -- perhaps -- some people's material cravings stem from emotional desires.

(on camera): What's so special about Barbie?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She has glamour. She has elegance that most of us don't have on a normal basis. I mean, very few...

BELLINI: She certainly has a figure.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, she definitely has a better figure. She has better clothes. And they always fit right.

BELLINI: In the diorama contest, Barbie never holds a job. She's never washing dishes. She never has a bad hair day. She's never unhappy.

Isn't all of this a little bizarre?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

BELLINI: I'm talking about the convention.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. It's a once...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Once a year.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People honestly look forward to it once a year. We have a thousand fanatics get together that nobody looks at us like we're crazy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She doesn't deal with being rejected. She cannot cope with abandonment.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm trying to move. I'm trying to walk away. Bye, bye, bye.

BELLINI (voice-over): In some ways, this is the ideal Barbie world, where just about anyone can be popular.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The most important part of Barbie collecting is the social aspect, and the friendships that you make.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All the way from Singapore, 22 hours. And you know, I just want to play my part, you know, in the convention.

BELLINI: Barbie collectors are proud to feel part of something larger than themselves.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Understand something. Barbie is the number two collected thing in the world behind stamps.

MYERS: Let's go back to that home store and see if that purse is still available.

BELLINI: Dixie ends up buying the purse for $2,000. Her final exciting challenge, getting all the stuff she bought home.

MYERS: I'm tired. I'm tired. I shopped, I shopped, I shopped. There's my buddy Margaret coming in. Look at her. She's dragging a box. This is one way to get it home, isn't it? Yes, OK, here I am. Yes, this is my bellman. This is my stuff. I'm shipping home. Yes, this is the stuff I'm not actually carrying home, believe it or not. Yes, probably oh, easily 1,000 pounds here and there. This is why God invented bellmen, because, you know, so that they can take all the things that I carry all the over to the shipping department.

BELLINI: Dixie Myers, after adding up her shipping, her shopping, and other expenses dropped $6,000 at the convention. Mattel, the maker of Barbie, estimates a half-million dollars changed hands over the course of four days.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Which for four people coming to a dumb old Barbie convention, that's a lot of money, isn't it?

BELLINI: You can laugh, you can judge, you can roll your eyes, but make no mistake, there's a future in plastic.

Jason Bellini, CNN, Denver, Colorado.

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BROWN: We should get them with the Pez people.

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