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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
How Real Are Cyber-Terrorism Threats?; Looking Back at Renowned Who Bassist; John Henry Williams Slugs Into His Father's Footsteps
Aired June 27, 2002 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. The program is called NEWSNIGHT, though tonight it may seem a little more like lifestyles of the celebrities and the sub-lebrities, the famous and the infamous.
When we looked at what we are covering tonight, we realized we are dealing with a pretty eclectic group of characters. We'll talk about the threat of cyber-terrorism, a big story today, with the man once known as America's most wanted computer outlaw, former hacker, convicted hacker, Kevin Mitnick.
We'll look back at someone more famous than infamous, John Entwistle, bassist for The Who, the quiet one -- not hard when you're playing next to Pete Townshend. He was found dead today in Las Vegas, a day before The Who was to start touring.
We'll also meet someone who's not exactly famous yet, but he wants to be just as well known and revered as his father, and that will be no easy task -- excuse me -- Minor League rookie John Henry Williams, whose dad was probably the best slugger in the history of baseball, Ted Williams.
We'll also catch up with Miss Cleo. Miss Cleo of late night infomercial fame, charged with being a sham psychic. We're shocked -- shocked -- I tell you.
The Jamaican government has an even worse accusation: her accent -- it's fake, man. It's true. And, I might become a little infamous myself by the end of the program. You'll have to wait until "Segment 7" to see why. In this business we like to call news, that is a tease.
There was a lot of hard news today, however, and that comes before anything else. The whip begins with the case of Elizabeth Smart. Quite a story broken just a few hours ago by Jeanne Meserve. She is in Salt Lake City for us tonight. Jeanne, the headline.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, Richard Ricci's father-in-law says authorities investigating the Elizabeth Smart abduction took from his trailer a hat matching the description of the one worn by Elizabeth's abductor -- Anderson.
COOPER: On to Kelli Arena and the threat of cyberterrorism. Kelly, your headline.
KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, the threat involves al Qaeda. And we're not talking computer viruses, here. There is evidence that the terrorist organization could be targeting the country's vital infrastructure.
COOPER: A big decision today from the Supreme Court on one of the most controversial issues in education, school vouchers. Bob Franken is following that tonight. Bob, a headline.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, the courts have been ruling on the church-state relationship, and a lot of attention is being paid to the Pledge of Allegiance, but the one with significance could very well be the one that has come out in the Supreme Court today on Cleveland school vouchers.
COOPER: A lot of interesting stories tonight. We will be back with all of you in a moment. We begin, however, with the Elizabeth Smart investigation, which continues to focus squarely on handyman and ex-con Richard Ricci.
Some intriguing developments tonight from our Jeanne Meserve involving several items taken by the FBI from the mobile home of Ricci's father-in-law, and a bit of mystery involving Ricci's Jeep Cherokee. A thousand miles on the odometer unaccounted for around the time of Elizabeth's kidnapping.
So it is back now to Jeanne Meserve, who had a very busy day, indeed, in Salt Lake City -- Jeanne.
MESERVE: Anderson, authorities are working in overdrive, trying to make a connection between Richard Ricci, Elizabeth Smart, and the abduction. We learned today a little bit more about what they're working with.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): David Morse lives in the trailer next door to his son-in-law Richard Ricci. Morse says FBI investigators removed two items from his home.
DAVID MORSE, RICCI'S FATHER-IN-LAW: I give him a machete blade that I use to trim these tree limbs off, and a golf hat I had that matched the description that's been hanging in my kitchen. And that's all, that's all they took from here.
MESERVE (on camera): Did Richard ever use either of those items?
MORSE: No. No. No.
MESERVE: You're sure he wasn't using either one of them the night of the abduction?
MORSE: Positive, yes.
MESERVE (voice-over): The hat, says Morse, was tan, like the one described by Mary Katherine Smart, who witnessed her sister Elizabeth's abduction. Law enforcement sources confirm they took the machete but say they do not know if it has any relevance to their investigation.
No comment from police on the golf hat. Earlier this week, Salt Lake City police asked the public to let them know if they had seen Ricci driving one of three vehicles between May 31 and June 8, the week bracketing the abduction. Investigators tell CNN that Ricci's white jeep was not seen in his driveway during the period, but one thousand miles were put on the odometer.
Those same sources say that when the car returned on June 8, Ricci was observed hurriedly removing items, including seat covers. David Morse says the jeep went in the shop for repairs on about the 25th of May and stayed there, because Richard didn't have the money to get it out.
MORSE: I know it hasn't been around here at all.
MESERVE: So it hasn't been here at all since he put it in the shop?
MORSE: No, no, no.
MESERVE: So he didn't take anything out of the car, as far as you know?
MORSE: No, no. They said it had seat covers, but it didn't even have seat covers.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE: Law enforcement sources tell CNN that among the items belonging to the Smarts found at the Ricci trailer are items of clothing. None of them belong to Elizabeth, and it's not clear when they were taken. Those same sources tell CNN that Ricci has admitted to taking items from the Smarts when he was a handyman there.
He has also admitted to other burglaries in the area, including one of an occupied home at night. That is significant, because one of the theories that investigators have had, is that burglary gone bad explains the abduction of Elizabeth Smart. Anderson, back to you.
COOPER: Jeanne, three startling developments. Have they conducted any forensic tests on the vehicle that's in question?
MESERVE: They have conducted forensic tests. One of the challenges here is that this white jeep used to belong to Ed Smart, and so if they find a hair or a fingerprint of Elizabeth Smart in that vehicle, it's not necessarily conclusive.
But what sources told me today is that amongst the test they're doing are tests of the wheel well. They're trying to determine where that vehicle might have been driven, for that mysterious week between May 31 and June 8 -- Anderson. COOPER: And as always, we should point out, and I still -- I expect this is still the case -- this man is not a suspect, police are still saying he's very interesting, is that right?
MESERVE: That's absolutely right. Still not named as a suspect in this case. They say they have six or seven promising leads, but Richard Ricci is at the very top of that list -- Anderson.
COOPER: All right. Jeanne Meserve. Thanks very much -- in Salt Lake City -- great work.
A quick word on wildfires, not from Arizona, but from the earlier ones that ravaged Colorado. The forest service worker charged with setting the so-called Hayman wildfire intentionally was released from prison.
Terry Barton was ordered to stay in halfway house until her trial on August 26. The other condition gets our "duh" award for the day. She's supposed to stay out of forests.
On now to the war on terror, and a number of areas to explore tonight. New flight restrictions and combat air patrols, a possible break on the money trail, and most notably today, new concerns about whether the next target could be computers. With so much of our money and security depending on computers, the threat is being taken very seriously.
Tonight for more now we turn to CNN's Kelli Arena.
ARENA: Anderson, government officials confirm that al Qaeda has more knowledge about, and an interest in, a possible cyber-attack, than previously thought. CNN has learned that toward the end of last year, investigators discovered a house in Pakistan run by al Qaeda, devoted solely to training for cyber-warfare and hacking. One intelligence official called it a cyber-academy.
Additionally, in response to a report in today's "Washington Post," officials confirm that they found evidence al Qaeda members were gathering information about systems that control U.S. infrastructure, things like dams and power grids.
Officials caution that they have no specific evidence that an attack is underway. They're not convinced at that al Qaeda members have achieved the level of expertise is that's necessary to carry out such an attack, and they are more worried about the likelihood of physical acts of terrorism.
U.S. officials have warned about cyber-attacks on the nation's infrastructure for years. What may be more alarming here, according to some experts, is how much still has to be done to deal with vulnerabilities. Back to you.
COOPER: Kelly, we've heard a lot about increased threats in the last couple of days. There's no new level of threat from the government. I mean, the Office of Homeland Security hasn't issued, hasn't ratcheted up the threat level at all, have they? ARENA: No, it hasn't. It remains at yellow, which is an elevated state of alert, and it has been like that since September 11. We have not seen any change there.
COOPER: All right. Kelli Arena, thanks very much. We're going to have more on cyber-security a bit later in the program. We'll be talking to man who was once the nation's cyber public enemy number one, Kevin Mitnick. He has gone straight since then, and he'll join us about 20 minutes from now.
As we mentioned a moment ago, the FAA is putting new restrictions on flights around U.S. landmarks, making the Statue of Liberty, the Gateway Arch in St. Louis, and Mount Rushmore off limits during the holiday. A no-fly zone is already in place around the Statue of Liberty and will be enforced at the other monuments next week.
The Pentagon is also stepping up combat air patrols during the holiday over a number of major cities in addition to Washington and New York.
Coming up ahead on NEWSNIGHT, is Liza angling for her own reality TV series? Listen, we do not make this stuff up. That's little later on in the program. But up next, public money for private schools -- a major Supreme Court ruling.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, I tell you, you've got to hand it to the Supreme Court. The nine justices sure have a sense of the dramatic.
After two blockbuster rulings on death penalty cases, the supremes closed out their session with a ruling on school vouchers that could affect millions of children across the country. It speaks to the question of whether giving parents money to take their children out of public school amounts to promoting religion, if the vast majority of parents use that money for parochial school.
Here again, CNN's Bob Franken.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN (voice-over): Supporters of school vouchers were thrilled.
CLINT BOLICK, INSTITUTE FOR JUSTICE: This was the Super Bowl for school choice, and the kids won.
FRANKEN: Opponents were appalled, especially those who fight for church-state separation.
BARRY LYNN, AMERICANS UNITED FOR THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE: Today was a major defeat for principle of church-state separation, and the worst decision in this area in the past 50 years.
FRANKEN: By a vote of five-to-four, the Supreme Court's most conservative justices ruled that the school voucher program in Cleveland did not violate the Constitution's ban on government support for religion.
That, even though the taxpayer subsidies can be used at religious schools, even those that require religious classes.
UNIDENTIFIED TEACHER: This is going to be a lesson on the first commandment.
FRANKEN: The court ruled Cleveland's voucher program was neutral, because parents with children in failing public schools had a choice: They could also send their children to secular private schools, or even other public schools in the suburbs.
The court said it simply did not matter that more than 96 percent of voucher students in Cleveland chose religious schools.
"The constitutionality," wrote Chief Justice William Rehnquist, "simply does not turn on whether and why in a particular are at a particular time, most private schools are religious, or most recipients choose to use the aid at a religious school."
Voucher advocates in Cleveland say children and public schools will benefit.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now with this empowering of parents, they can select the school of their choice based on the needs of the child. And so, therefore, we're talking about competition.
FRANKEN: But for teachers' groups, this was a stinging defeat.
MERYL JOHNSON, CLEVELAND TEACHERS UNION: What it means is that the Supreme Court has said it's OK to use public tax dollars for religious schools. And my fear is that it's going to mean the devastation of our public schools.
FRANKEN: One of the four dissenting justices, John Paul Stevens, called the decision "profoundly misguided."
An opinion shared by Senator Edward Kennedy.
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: We don't have to abandon the public schools in order to save them.
FRANKEN: Republican Senator George Voinovich was one of the architects of the Cleveland vouchers program when he was Ohio governor.
SEN. GEORGE VOINOVICH (R), OHIO: I would believe that now that the court has ruled it's constitutional, you're going to see more of these schools being created throughout the country that'll be, quote "nonreligious."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN: And that is exactly what the voucher opponents most fear. They're worried about the political battles, most of which will be fought in the states. They'll be fighting those battles knowing that the legal battle, for all practical purposes, has now been lost to those who favor the vouchers -- Anderson.
COOPER: Well Bob, my question may be better suited to legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin, but does this ruling by the Supreme Court say anything about any possible future rulings by the Supreme Court on church versus state issues?
FRANKEN: Well, if the flag issue ever got to the Supreme Court, it's become quite clear that it would be quickly deflected by the Supreme Court.
But this could also extend into areas of politics. There are discussions about, for instance, the funding of faith-based initiatives, which would be money used for various programs that are run by churches.
And some analysts are saying that there's quite a significance precedent that's been set on the vouchers matter, which might extend to that.
COOPER: All right, Bob Franken, thanks very much for joining us tonight.
You've got to file this one under: Something Like This Was Bound to Happen. The San Francisco appeals court judge who ruled the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional yesterday, well, he put the ruling on hold today.
Judge Alfred T. Goodwin stayed his ruling until the full 9th Circuit Court of Appeals can take up the case. And that day may be pretty quick in coming. Lawyers at the Justice Department spent the day working on the best way to do it. As for why Judge Goodwin issued the stay, he gave no reason for his decision. But it is safe to say he hasn't exactly been Mr. Popularity since the ruling came down.
As NEWSNIGHT continues, we'll go behind today's ruling with legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: From the death penalty to the school vouchers and the pledge, it has been quite a run for the courts, and quite a week for CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin. A lot to talk about tonight.
Welcome back. Thanks for staying up late with us.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hi, Anderson.
COOPER: You must be exhausted. It's been...
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: Busy.
COOPER: Let's talk about the pledge first. How -- is it strange; is it unusual for a judge to stay his own ruling?
TOOBIN: It's not unusual for a controversial ruling to be stayed while the appeals process continues. What is unusual about what Judge Goodwin did today is that no one asked him to stay the ruling. He just did it on his own, I think recognizing that the torrent of abuse that he's facing also represents a likely legal judgment against him.
So I think he's saying, OK, don't panic, everybody can continue saying "under God" for the time being while the courts get ready to beat me up further.
COOPER: And what happens now? I mean...
TOOBIN: What happens now is nothing, quite literally. I mean, the status quo remains the same. The Statue of Liberty -- excuse me, the Pledge of Allegiance is intact, as it has been since 1954 while this decision gets played out in the courts.
COOPER: But it gets played out at the 9th circuit level.
TOOBIN: Right. What the Justice Department announced today is that instead of going directly to the United States Supreme Court, Attorney General John Ashcroft announced that they would go to what's called an on-bank (ph) panel of 11 judges of the 9th circuit to get the 2-1 decision of yesterday reversed.
COOPER: But it's dead on the vine, basically?
TOOBIN: It certainly looks that way to me.
I mean, what I found interesting today was the ACLU, which is the premiere civil liberties organization in the country...
COOPER: Yes, I've heard of it.
TOOBIN: Well, I know you've heard of it.
But they usually are very outspoken on these issues -- said not a word in defense of this ruling.
It just shows how far outside the mainstream this decision is. I haven't heard a single reputable law professor suggest that it's going to be affirmed. I think this whole episode may be much to ado about nothing, and the Pledge of Allegiance is not going anywhere.
COOPER: It's not even getting to the Supreme Court?
TOOBIN: It looks that way, unless Mr. -- the plaintiff tries to get it there. But it looks like the 11th circuit will dispatch it pretty quickly.
COOPER: Has this Supreme Court surprised you this term?
TOOBIN: Well, certainly the death penalty cases were a surprise. I think the church-state issue today, the vouchers, is not a big surprise. If you look at 5-4 split. Five conservatives, the four more moderate, liberals. Exactly the same line-up as in Bush v. Gore a year ago -- two years ago.
The -- so that -- but the death penalty, these were big, big decisions. It's the result of these two decisions, I think hundreds of people are going to be off death row. For a court that has been very pro-death penalty, it was a real message to the states that things maybe have been moving a little too quickly. So out of 3,700 people on death row, that number is going to be reduced considerably.
COOPER: And why didn't vouchers surprise you? I mean, what...
TOOBIN: Well, church-state issues are a perennial subject for the courts. And here you had a law that was what the lawyers call facially neutral. It did not endorse religion in any way, it just said, here, money for parents, parents can spend that money however they want. As it turns out, the vast, vast majority of the parents spend that money on parochial schools.
But it wasn't a direct endorsement of religion. That's the kind of thing that the courts have generally said is OK.
COOPER: And does it point to any, you know, future trend in Supreme Court rulings regarding church and state?
TOOBIN: Well, I think it does. I mean, one of the things President Bush has said -- this is a big victory for him, by the way -- he has also said that he wants faith-based organizations to provide social services. Not just schools, but welfare, soup kitchens.
And this is sort of a green light for the churches to get more involved in delivery of all sorts of services that government used to do.
COOPER: Now, does the Supreme Court have other things on their docket this summer? I mean, I'm not familiar with how much they have.
TOOBIN: Not really. They hear -- they're always -- you know, last-minute stays of execution. But it's not until October -- the famous first Monday in October -- that they will announce what cases they're going to hear next term.
And in many respects, the biggest news of today was the dog that didn't bark: No one retired from the Supreme Court. I mean, that is always a big issue. No one retired. It's often a time that justices retire, at the end of the term. Of course, they could retire tomorrow. There's no rule on when they have to.
But the huge, huge fight that will be a Supreme Court nomination hasn't happened yet, and probably won't happen until after the mid- term elections.
COOPER: All right, Jeffrey Toobin, thanks for coming in.
TOOBIN: OK.
COOPER: Get some sleep.
TOOBIN: I'll try.
COOPER: All right.
We've heard quite a few stories -- urban legends might be a better way to put it, offering other explanations for what happened on 9/11. Most put the blame on the Israelis or on American Jews, and most come from the Middle East.
One theory, however, is making a buzz -- if that is the right word -- in France.
Here's CNN's Jim Bitterman.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JIM BITTERMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Throughout the spring and into the summer, a leading bestseller in France has not been some great work of French literature, but a $17 paperback called "The Horrifying Fraud," a book which casts doubt on the official version of the events of September 11, substituting an elaborate conspiracy concocted by America's military industrial complex in order to increase U.S. military budgets.
It has sold more than 200,000 copies here, a huge success in French terms, Attracting interest from readers like Edward Chabanan (ph) and Napu Lalu (ph), who are always skeptical about current events.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): There is always doubt. I haven't seen any proof, for instance, that man walked on the moon.
BITTERMAN: The creator of the horrifying plot does believe man walked on the moon, but insists, among other things, that it was not a hijacked American Airlines 757 that crashed into the Pentagon on 9/11, but a missile fired by the military itself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The official version is incomplete, and on certain points it's wrong. This bombing was not done by a plane, but by a missile. As far as we are concerned, the plane was destroyed in Ohio.
BITTERMAN: Although he did not personally travel to the U.S. for his research, and does not claim to be an expert, Meyssan bases his theory, and now a follow-up book defending his theory, on his own analysis of official documents and photographs, which he says don't show much that looks like an airline, and do show a hole in the Pentagon too small to be made by an airplane.
Still, photographs Meyssan left out, including some by CNN's Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre, picture debris that clearly came from the hijacked jumbo jet.
The Pentagon spokesperson called the book disgusting.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is no question, there is no doubt what happened that day. And I think it's appalling that anyone might try to put out that kind of myth. I think it's also appalling for anyone to continue to give those sorts of people any kind of publicity.
BITTERMAN: Some French writers are also appalled. Giome Bescia (ph) and another investigative journalist wrote a blistering rebuttal of Meyssan's book, fearing it would reflect badly on serious authors like themselves.
(on camera): By the first anniversary of September 11, Meyssan says he hopes he'll have his book out in 18 different countries, including the United States, where he says no mainstream publisher would dare to take it on for fear of legal complications.
(voice-over): Still, the conspiracy theory business is a good one. In addition to selling hundreds of thousands of copies of his first book, Meyssan's follow-up sold 15,000 copies two days after launch, and is now number seven on one bestseller list. Bestsellers that earn Meyssan $1 to $2 on every transaction.
Jim Bitterman, CNN, Paris.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Pretty unbelievable.
Can al Qaeda use hackers to shut down power grids and emergency systems across the nation? We will talk with an infamous former hacker coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: We want to turn back now to the story about al Qaeda and the cyber-terror threat.
Tracking down hackers can often turn into a high-tech version of a wild goose chase. So our thinking on the challenge tonight is this. If you can't beat them or find them, you can at least try to think like them.
So joining us now from Las Vegas, convicted hacker Kevin Mitnick. He spent years in federal prison for hacking and now works as a computer security expert.
Thanks very much for being with us, Kevin.
KEVIN MITNICK, FORMER HACKER: Hey, thank you, Anderson, nice -- it's an honor to be here.
COOPER: OK, well, you know, obviously you are not privy to the workings of al Qaeda or their computer abilities, but you do know an awful lot about U.S. computer security. How vulnerable are we?
MITNICK: Well, the systems that I actually explored back in my hacking heyday was pretty much the telecommunications infrastructure. And I was really quite surprised how vulnerable the telephone companies are throughout the nation. And if a 17-year-old kid could compromise the telecommunications infrastructure of this country, what can an organized, well-funded attack by our enemies, foreign and domestic do? It's a real good question.
COOPER: You say vulnerable. Vulnerable in what way?
MITNICK: To get access to, for instance, telephone company switches, which give the person who's accessing the switch the same capabilities as if they were an employee of the phone company to effect changes, to add, disconnect, and change telephone services.
Or even, in some cases, if they can get a certain level of access to the switch, they can actually crash the switch and take out, you know, an area of service.
COOPER: I apologize in advance, my questions are stupid, I'm a complete computer boob. But how difficult is a coordinated attack on, say, the phone infrastructure?
MITNICK: Well, a coordinated attack is possible, but in a coordinated attack, the chances that the attackers might be detected is -- it's a pretty good chance. But if an attacker or enemies are going after a particular area of the phone company, or a particular, like, area, like, for example, in Las Vegas, it's definitely possible to interfere with the telecommunications infrastructure.
But, I mean, they can take out The Whole United States. I think that would be a pretty difficult task.
But I must say, in my research, I spoke with a gentleman who authored a book on the SS-7 (ph) network. That's the network of how telephone calls are placed. They -- we call it out of band. And that gentleman told me, who was very familiar with the network, that if he had a laptop and a telephone line, he could actually take down the entire telecommunications infrastructure through the SS-7 network.
And that's what I was told. I don't know if -- I haven't seen it for myself, though.
COOPER: And that's just one individual. What...
MITNICK: That's one individual, so you can imagine a well-funded adversary, like al Qaeda or a terrorist group or a foreign government or even people domestically are, you know, there's -- our infrastructure's run by computer switch control devices.
So computers are inherently vulnerable, so if the attacker gets access to a computer that controls, for instance, a dam, a telephone company switch, part of the power grid, and they can actually control the physical device by gaining access to the computer, then they can do anything that a legitimate operator can do.
COOPER: You know, obviously, whenever we talk about this kind of thing, we get e-mail from people saying, Well, why are you talking about this kind of stuff out loud and giving ideas to people? Obviously the people who are capable of this are already thinking about this and already know about this information. What other -- you talked about telecommunications. Are there other likely targets of an attack that you could foresee from your experience?
MITNICK: Well, you look at -- everything depends on electricity, so you think that energy would be a likely target. Water supply, banking, transportation. There's a thing like, for instance, if we suffer a nuclear attack, you know, or in a nuclear explosion, there's EMP, electronic magnetic pulse. I've learned about some of these devices that will actually emit an EMP pulse, and you could disable electronic devices at a distance, for example.
So you have to wonder if somebody can build one of these devices that are strong enough to, for instance, disable an airplane upon takeoff. I haven't heard of it being done, but I understand it's possible.
COOPER: We only have about 40 seconds left. Is there anything U.S. security officials, U.S. intelligence officials, or lawmakers should be doing regarding computer security, in your opinion, that they are not doing?
MITNICK: Well, yes, I think an early warning system has to be established, that private sector companies that are controlled the critical infrastructures have to -- you know, there has to be legislation or there has to be some sort of agreed partnership where both parties benefit, and then...
COOPER: Well, because, because private companies right now are not reporting if they've been hacked?
MITNICK: Yes, because they don't want the public's confidence undermined. They don't want to lose -- they don't want to be liable to their shareholders or to security vendors.
So they -- a lot of companies do not report it to the government. And if the government doesn't know about it, how can they set up an early warning system? Because they won't know that parts of the critical infrastructure are being -- are under attack.
COOPER: All right, Kevin Mitnick, it is a fascinating topic, very scary. And we appreciate you coming in and talking more about it tonight.
Thanks very much...
MITNICK: Thank you. I hope we could become less vulnerable.
COOPER: I hope so too, I think we all do.
On now to the law, or back to the law, really, since we've already dealt tonight with the Supreme Court's decision on school vouchers and with circuit court said (ph) about the Pledge of Allegiance, important matters, no doubt, very important matters are on a lot of dockets just now.
But the case that tickles us the most tonight concerns a woman whose infomercials call her a Shango (ph) Shaman from Jamaica.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, INFOMERCIAL)
MISS CLEO: But you know I'm telling you the truth, don't you?
CALLER: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER (voice-over): If you stay up as late as we do and have numbed your mind with as much TV as we have, you've certainly seen Miss Cleo, queen of the telepsychics. Her spots have now been pulled off the air by arrangement with the Federal Trade Commission because the state of Florida is suing the producer of Miss Cleo's infomercials and the company that runs the telepsychic service she touts.
The charges, deceptive advertising, billing people who never made any calls, and sending out illegally threatening dunning letters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, INFOMERCIAL)
MISS CLEO: I keep it real. No reason not to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: At a hearing yesterday, the Shango Shaman from Jamaica -- her real name is Youree Dell Harris -- repeatedly took the Fifth -- so much for knows all, tells all, I guess -- when she was asked about her birth certificate, which shows her to have been born in Los Angeles to American parents.
Miss Cleo also said -- hinted, more like -- that her Caribbean accent kind of comes and goes, if you know what I mean, man.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, INFOMERCIAL)
MISS CLEO: You know that one I am talking about, don't you?
CALLER: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Shango Shaman from Jamaica? Yeah. Unless Shango means "bogus," the state of Florida could be onto something. We don't know how the lawsuit's going to come out, but we're confident Miss Cleo does. After all, she's a psychic, right?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MISS CLEO: You are quite finished doing your interview, my darling.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Yes, my darling.
Later on NEWSNIGHT, it worked for Ozzy. Now Liza with a "Z" and her enigmatic husband say they want to be on TV. But first, a famous rookie you probably never heard of.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: So some acts are pretty tough to follow. If you don't believe me, I got three words for you, Frank Sinatra, Jr. As good a singer as the guy is, and he can sing, there's no doubt about it, Junior will never be his dad. Seems like politics and baseball are the only professions in which the child can ever hope to match the parent.
No one ever said, That John Quincy kid just ain't his dad, or wondered when Barry Bonds would step out of the old man's shadow.
But even in baseball, there are dads, and then there are dads, which isn't stopping a minor leaguer named John Henry from taking up the same game as his father, Ted.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): In a way, these guys are the real boys of summer. Teenagers, most of them, playing professional baseball for the first time at the absolute bottom rung of the latter, a rookie league along Florida's Gulf Coast, a place where the pregame meal is a cold sandwich and a banana served on a concrete table, a place where, if you're 33 years old, you wouldn't stand a chance.
JOHN HENRY WILLIAMS, GULF COAST RED SOX: This is my first professional game ever in my life. It's also my first professional -- my first real baseball game in 10 years, if ever.
COOPER: Unless your last name happens to be Williams, as in John Henry Williams, 33, soon to be 34, the son of the man widely held to be the best hitter ever in major league baseball -- that Williams, Ted Williams of the Boston Red Sox.
WILLIAMS: He's been right along for the ride, very excited for my successes, you know, upset about my failures, and talking hitting The Whole time.
COOPER: Ted Williams is in his 80s now, and very ill. He lives in a retirement community north of Tampa. His son says he's been working out since last fall. Both he and his father, he says, approached the Red Sox, and at first didn't want anyone to know about it.
WILLIAMS: There was a lot of talk initially from the beginning to trying to do this as an alias, under an alias name so that no one would know who I was. And unfortunately it was impossible to do it that way.
COOPER: So the Boston Red Sox, acceding to the wishes of their most cherished athlete, publicly signed his son to a minor league contract, $850 a month.
JOHN SANDERS, RED SOX MINOR LEAGUE MANAGER: Respect for Ted Williams and his family. This is something that we've agreed to do, and we all are on the same page. We've all agreed to go with it.
WILLIAMS: Time was right. You know, in life a lot of things happen for many different reasons, some not predetermined. And things lined up right now.
UNIDENTIFIED RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Why doesn't major league baseball take a bold step and say no?
COOPER: In Boston, things are most definitely not lining up for John Henry Williams, not least on sports talk radio. He's been pounded hour after hour, not just because he's old in a young man's game, but because of his past, a past perceived as taking monetary advantage of his father's fame.
GLENN ORDWAY, WEEI RADIO: Really was an outrage back in '99 when we had the All Star game here, Ted Williams is wheeled out in the golf cart, all of the great players of the last 50 years all surround him. Everybody comes out with a designated cap of their team. He comes out with a Hitter.net cap and a T-shirt with a Hitter.net, obviously capitalizing on the moment, his son obviously the one that was the catalyst.
It infuriated an awful lot of people.
COOPER: On the streets outside Fenway Park, that argument is lost in admiration, admiration for the father.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would give him anything he wants, he's a god. Ted Williams is a god of the -- he's like the Babe Ruth of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) baseball here, so give him anything he wants.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's a great, you know, opportunity for him, and since it's Ted's son, I think it's great for the Red Sox.
COOPER: In his first game for the Gulf Coast Red Sox, John Henry Williams went 0 for 3. His last at-bat, a hard line drive to third, was caught. But he didn't strike out and didn't embarrass himself.
WILLIAMS: I really think baseball is a sport that isn't the moment, it takes time. You know, you -- over a period of time, people have hot streaks, they have cold streaks. But at the end of the season, you know, you decide how it really happened.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: An old man at 33. It is a very tough game.
More sad news today, Jay Berwanger (ph) died yesterday. He was 88. And if you're trying to place the name, this might help, no, Mr. Berwanger was not the college running back cast in bronze on the Heisman Trophy. He was, however, the first college athlete to receive one. That was back in 1935 as a senior for the University of Chicago. It wouldn't even be called the Heisman until 1936.
Jay Berwanger won it by running faster than anyone had ever seen before. He was picked first in the draft and acquired by the Chicago Bears, but owner George Hallas (ph) wouldn't agree to the trophy winner's $25,000 a year salary, so Jay Berwanger went into sales and not into pro ball.
And from Las Vegas today, this bit of bad news. John Entwistle, bass player for The Who, was found dead today in his hotel room at the Hard Rock Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas. He was just 57. No word yet on the cause. An autopsy is scheduled for tomorrow, the day The Who was supposed to kick off a 26-city tour. Late tonight, promoters announced the first two dates would be canceled.
No decision about the rest, but it is hard to imagine how they could go on, because in a profession where lead singers get all the glory and lead guitarists get all the solos, John Entwistle was the exception. The Who's first hit, "My Generation," was the first of its kind, a rock tune with a bass solo. The solo and the sound were unique, and still are.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE TOWNSHEND, The Who: And John, completely radical, radically revolutionized the sound of the bass. You know, the kind of basic, funky black bass sound that we hear now is something that, you know, that we white folk have given back to the, you know, the black basses, you know. He invented round-wound (ph) strings for the bass guitar, he invented that open -- you know, the bass up to that point was the sound, you know, smooth sound that you talk about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, The Who lost drummer Keith Moon to a drug overdose more than 20 years ago, so now it's just Roger Daltrey and Pete Townshend left to carry on, and one heck of a rhythm section somewhere, we hope, sitting in.
Coming up next on NEWSNIGHT, the next celebrity reality show. Move over, Ozzy, here comes Liza and Andy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: All right. Finally from us tonight, Ozzy envy. No matter how much hype there has been, and there has been a lot, it is still a thing of wonder to us that Ozzy Osbourne has become the It boy. Incomprehensible, perhaps, but a style setter nonetheless.
He is also the biggest cash cow MTV has ever had. No surprise either that a shower of other falling stars are trying to get their own Ozzy-like shows. A friend of mine calls them sub-lebrities, people like Anna Nicole Smith, Tommy Lee, Gene Simmons of Kiss, David Lee Roth, even Cybill Shepherd.
Then, of course, there is Liza Minnelli, a full-fledged celebrity and her shining new husband, David Gest. According to gossip columnist Liz Smith, they now want their own show.
"New York Post" TV critic Adam Buckman was kind enough to come in to talk about this unlikely phenomena.
Would you watch Liza and David Gest?
ADAM BUCKMAN, TV CRITIC, "NEW YORK POST": I would absolutely watch the Liza and David Gest Show. That's an accident waiting to happen.
COOPER: Yes, I confess I would watch it in a second.
BUCKMAN: Oh, yes, I would love to see the outtakes. They'd be even better.
COOPER: Yes. Why are so many celebrities doing this now? I mean, is it simply about money?
BUCKMAN: Well, I think partly, but I think that celebrities like Liza Minnelli are somewhat addicted to the limelight. I think they don't mind, perhaps, if cameras follow them around and record the everyday moments of their everyday lives.
In addition, they all saw what it did to Ozzy's career. Now Ozzy was no has-been by any stretch of the imagination, but now his audience has broadened incredibly and multiplied many-fold.
COOPER: Right.
BUCKMAN: And I think that someone like Liza would probably be quite envious of that, and then maybe have the ability to attract different demographic groups, different age groups, and perhaps sell records and tickets to shows.
COOPER: Yes, Ozzy wasn't -- I mean, what -- his crew wasn't quite like Spinal Tap or was like (ph), that they would appear and be like a public show named Spinal Tap.
BUCKMAN: No, he seemed to have...
(CROSSTALK)
BUCKMAN: ... this loyal following in his Ozzfest concerts every summer and so forth. So...
COOPER: But he definitely got an entire new generation.
BUCKMAN: Oh, fantastic, everybody buying his records going all the way back to "Black Sabbath" now.
COOPER: Right. And they're making at least $20 million on this next series. Sharon now says they may be even more, she's hinting.
BUCKMAN: Yes, well, she says that the deal is actually worth more than the $20 million that people are reporting. Maybe she's adding up various perks and other things. COOPER: I heard they were apartment shopping in New York, so that will...
BUCKMAN: Yes, they are...
COOPER: ... eat up a fair amount of it.
But, I mean, these shows really depend on the celebrities being honest. I mean...
BUCKMAN: Yes.
COOPER: ... we both like the Ozzy show an awful lot...
BUCKMAN: Love it, love that show.
COOPER: ... and it really was a look at this bizarre family life.
BUCKMAN: Yes.
COOPER: I don't think -- will these other celebrities allow that kind of thing?
BUCKMAN: That's one of the big questions. It seemed like the Osbourne family really, really were so honest that they really didn't care. It seemed like they were utterly without guile and didn't mind this living their lives before the cameras.
I don't think other celebrities -- in fact, some of the one that have been mentioned, such as Sean Puffy Combs, I don't think they're going to be as open as the Osbournes. In fact, the Osbournes may begin putting on for the cameras a little more in the second go-round.
So I feel like the original "Osbournes" was a very, very special show...
COOPER: You don't think they'll be able to...
(CROSSTALK)
BUCKMAN: ... of its kind.
COOPER: You don't think they'll be able to recreate the magic.
BUCKMAN: I really don't know. I think the people who made the show are very smart, and I -- as you and I agree that the show was really well made and really well produced. Maybe they can do just as good, so...
COOPER: Also, how do you top, like, you know, smelling the dog's butt? I mean, there were so many things on that in the first episode...
BUCKMAN: Yes.
COOPER: ... that were so over the top, that...
BUCKMAN: Yes, and...
COOPER: ... I don't know what they can do.
BUCKMAN: And that was a really fun and entertaining introduction to "The Osbournes." However, now we feel like we know them.
COOPER: Right.
BUCKMAN: It'll be interesting to see if they take the locations to -- they apparently have a very large mansion in England, and I think part of the show will be made there, and they have some different environments and some different on location.
COOPER: Right. And some possibly sibling rivalry now that the girl has...
BUCKMAN: That's right, Kelly has an...
COOPER: ... released an album.
BUCKMAN: ... Kelly has an album, and she has a video being played on MTV. Jack, the brother, has got to be jealous about that, and we'll see...
COOPER: Right.
BUCKMAN: ... what happens to that...
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: He's going to sit there po'-faced throughout The Whole second season.
BUCKMAN: Probably.
COOPER: What other celebrities are doing this? I mean, I know Anna, Anna Nicole Smith was on "Larry King"...
BUCKMAN: Anna Nicole Smith.
COOPER: ... with this brilliant...
BUCKMAN: Yes.
COOPER: ... "LARRY KING" interview, and there was a camera crew following her even for that interview. So I know she's doing it.
BUCKMAN: She's going to do a show for E! They've already said so. And the Liza Minnelli and David Gest show, VH1 is talking to them about the show, it is a real idea, if -- I'm not sure if it'll ever come to fruition.
COOPER: But there was a lot of talk about Sean Puffy Combs or Puff Daddy or P Diddy or I'm not sure what he's called right now, but...
BUCKMAN: Yes. I -- we may as well call him Puffy.
COOPER: Puffy, all right.
BUCKMAN: Yes...
COOPER: Is that actually happening?
BUCKMAN: There was talk, but then there was talk that they would -- he wouldn't let cameras follow him around in his private life...
COOPER: Right.
BUCKMAN: ... and that he would only allow them to follow him around at his business life at the office...
COOPER: Right.
BUCKMAN: ... and interacting with hip-hop stars. And that's already a signal that the genre will get diluted...
COOPER: Right.
BUCKMAN: ... if some of these headstrong stars start setting up ground rules...
COOPER: Right.
BUCKMAN: ... and barriers to filming.
COOPER: We've seen that, sir, (ph) that was Lou Perlman and "Making the Band." I mean, I want to see Lou Perlman's...
BUCKMAN: Yes.
COOPER: ... personal life. To me, that would have been the...
BUCKMAN: Exactly.
COOPER: ... that would have made that show.
BUCKMAN: You need -- you really want to get down and dirty, they got to let the cameras in the bedroom, the bathroom, or wherever.
COOPER: Well, we have done just that. I am actually...
BUCKMAN: Really?
COOPER: ... pitching a program, and I know you're a TV critic, and I'd love you to just kind of take a look at it a little bit...
BUCKMAN: I would be honored.
COOPER: ... and see what you think. All right. These are...
BUCKMAN: Yes...
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: ... this is me unplugged, if you will.
BUCKMAN: OK.
COOPER: Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Whoa, not so fast, what are you doing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just wanted to adjust your mike.
COOPER: What's your name again?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Diane (ph).
COOPER: Listen, Martha, I sent out a memo about two weeks ago, all right? not to be -- I don't want to be approached, I don't want to be touched, I don't want to be physically touched without advance -- you have to -- you say to me, you say, Mr. Cooper, I would like to touch you, and then you can come and adjust the mike. You don't just come up, you don't sneak up on an Aaron Brown, do you? No.
Gentle, gentle, please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right.
COOPER: Ah, not so rough.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You got flakes on you.
COOPER: What do you mean I have flakes? Stop looking at me. Don't make eye contact with me. You know how I feel about eye contact. I hate that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sir.
I make him up every night, and you can't make eye contact with him. Can you imagine, trying to make someone up and you can't make eye contact with them?
COOPER: Oops, sorry.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
So there you go. I don't know, I don't, I don't think there's much future to it.
BUCKMAN: It's got possibilities. But hey, I think it's Letterman who has the "Don't look at me" rules, so you might...
COOPER: Oh, is that right?
BUCKMAN: I think so.
COOPER: All right.
What, what is, what is the key to, do you think, to making one of these shows work? I mean, the Osbournes did it.
BUCKMAN: Yes.
COOPER: Is it the producers? Is it...
BUCKMAN: Well, I think a lot of it is how it's made and how it's edited after all the footage is collected. But there's something awfully unique about the Osbourne family," and people have debated whether they're a good family or a damaged family.
But I think they're the kind of family that is so open to each other that they just don't care who observes their life, and what it might look like on TV. That's what's needed to pull these shows off.
COOPER: So bottom line, do you think this Liza thing is actually going to happen?
BUCKMAN: I don't know, I think it'd be like a nervous breakdown every five minutes. You know, I don't know how that would be. I don't envy the crew who would be in charge of that.
COOPER: Because shooting one of these things, I mean, with "The Osbournes," they lived with this family for...
BUCKMAN: Five months.
COOPER: ... five months.
BUCKMAN: Five months, yes.
COOPER: And you end up shooting, I mean, hundreds of hours of tape.
BUCKMAN: I understand that you get used to them pretty quickly. In other words, it's not like they become more of a nuisance as time goes on. They're probably a nuisance in the beginning...
COOPER: Right.
BUCKMAN: ... and you have to kind of get used to them. Will Liza Minnelli want crews tramping through wherever she lives? You'll have to ask Lisa...
COOPER: All right, we'll try, we'll see what we can do.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Thanks very much, Adam, for coming in.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: It was fun.
BUCKMAN: Thank you.
COOPER: And that is NEWSNIGHT for tonight. You can sign up for our daily e-mail. Just go to cnn.com/newsnight. It just kind of rolls off the tongue, doesn't it?
I'm Anderson Cooper. I'll be back tomorrow. Thanks very much. Good night.
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