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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Dresden Struggling to Keep Flood Waters Back; Families of September 11 Victims File Suit Against Banks, Sudan, Saudi Princes, Many More.

Aired August 15, 2002 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, I'm Aaron Brown.
It's August. It has been dreadfully hot here in the East. The president is taking the month off in Texas, the Congress is out of Washington, back home or on some junket, neither making much news. It's not that nothing is happening these days, things are, but the best stories of the day are hardly going to change life as we know it on the planet.

I say the best stories, which is different from the important stories. There are plenty of important stories, we'll deal with them tonight. But the best stories are something else. And to us, at least, they both involve baseball. At the Little League World Series, officials have determined that the team from Harlem, here in New York, is clean, more or less. That despite charges made by someone, that the league that all the kids do live within the boundaries, they are entitled to play and they shall.

This is an issue because, as you may recall, last year another New York team made the World Series by cheating, really cheating, using a pitcher too old. Anyway, the Harlem kids are legal and we are delighted. We hope the adults who run these programs learned some things last year, though we doubt it. Winning, even at the Little League level, apparently is everything.

The other baseball story involves the best players in the world and the strongest union in the country. Tomorrow, it seems virtually certain Major League players will set a strike date in an effort to force owners to be, oh, shall we say, a little more flexible at the negotiating table. As someone once said in an entirely different context, baseball needs a strike like a fish needs a bicycle.

Here again, adults seem intent on messing up something wonderful and fun. As I was writing this, I received a note from a 14-year-old who told me he was very smart and wanted to be an anchorman when he grew up. He wondered if he might anchor the program the next time I was off. Given how badly adults seem to be messing things up these days, I probably should have said yes.

Onto the day's news. We begin with "The Whip." The perilous situation across Europe, it is especially bad in Germany, the flooding. Gaven Morris is in Dresden for us.

Gaven, the headline please. GAVEN MORRIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The emergency here continues to worsen as the river Elbe reaches its peak and keeps going. The people of Dresden are struggling to keep the water back - Aaron.

BROWN: Thank you. Onto the anthrax investigation, and increasing criticism of the FBI. That's Kelli Arena's beat, and Kelli joins us tonight.

A headline, please.

KELLI ARENA CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: The FBI says it's following strict investigative protocols in the anthrax case. And supporters point out the bureau is after all running an investigation and not a public relations campaign - Aaron.

BROWN: Kelli, thank you. Onto a lawsuit that involves some of the lawyers who went after the big tobacco and the asbestos industry, too. This time the legal assault has to do with 9/11. Bob Franken working that for us.

Bob, a headline from you, please.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And they're representing the family members of the victims, the September 11 attacks. And they're very open about it. They say they're seeking retribution, as one of them said. So they want to shrivel up the terrorist organizations by cutting off their money and their going after individuals, organizations and countries.

BROWN: Bob, thanks you very much. Back with you shortly.

And again, the Little League controversy apparently resolved, Keith Olbermann covering that.

I'm not sure, Keith, if I left you a headline or not but give it a go.

KEITH OLBERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's a kids game, Aaron, but that's only on the field. Little League Baseball as played by the adults is a sport of suspicion and controversy. And that latest controversy is officially over tonight with the Harlem kids cleared to play in the Little League World Series, but will the ill will linger - Aaron.

BROWN: Thank you. Thank all of you. We'll be back with you shortly. Also coming up in the program tonight, the pope's trip to Poland, is it a one-way journey? going back home for good? We've heard this line in the past, but the speculation this time seems especially intense. We'll talk tonight with John Allen of the "National Catholic Reporter" who covers the Vatican.

Also tonight, the future of Ground Zero. One of the officials in charge of the rebuilding efforts, Roland Betts, on the decision that we at least think is a smart one, taking a bit more time to come up with some more inspiring ideas. A lot has been going on down there. And we'll deal with much of it tonight. And what in the world is happening with weather? Europe's drenched. A giant dust cloud hanging over Asia. And in New York and across the East, in fact, it feels like we're being barbecued. We'll take a look at the science of what might be happening.

David Mattingly tonight with the story of a boxer whose pro career began after spending a generation behind bars. Joey Torres, a fascinating character and you'll meet him before we say good night.

All of that to come in the hour ahead. We begin in Dresden, a city that has seen an awful lot over the years. In World War II, it was bombed and burned to the ground. Tonight, floodwaters are washing the ground out from under the city and threatening to carry parts of it away. We turn again to CNN's Gaven Morris who is, we hope, in someplace dry.

Good evening.

MORRIS: Only just, Aaron, I'm on the edge of the river here. And it's still approaching fast. The problem here has been that it's gone beyond what everybody thought it would. There were dire predictions of 8.5 meters, 8.6 meters, well, it's gone beyond that even. And so we're talking now of very historic levels, in fact, probably levels that have not been seen in any time that records have been kept.

Now what that's meant is that it's risen above many of the defenses that were put in place to hold the water back. Some of the sandbags walls and things that have been put along. So the water has breached many of those defenses. And I can tell you that over on the other side of the river in the main path of the Old Town, we can no longer go there because of the water. But there's a plaza outside the Semper Opera House and the Zwinger Museum. These are magnificent buildings with incredible art collections, that sort of thing. The plaza outside is flooded. The basements of those buildings are flooded. And that was something everybody in Dresden did not want to see. There's an old town just next to that. That, too, is increasingly becoming flooded.

But up and down this river all sorts of new flood fronts have opened up during this night. And it's almost minute by minute dramas happening. Just a few minutes we saw a ferry boat come down this river, smash into the main bridge here, shatter into pieces and sort of slide under the bridge and kept going. These sorts of events have been happening all night. Earlier there was dam also which that broke, just adding to the problems.

So Aaron, it's been a dramatic night here. And unfortunately the worst is not over. I can also tell you that it's started raining again, and that's the worst thing the people of Dresden wanted to see - Aaron.

BROWN: How big a city is Dresden?

MORRIS: It's got a couple of hundred thousand people, maybe a quarter of a million people. And that is - you know, is a substantial city in this part of Germany. Obviously it's the former East Germany. It's been developing quite quickly since obviously the Wall came down. But before that, it was quite undeveloped. That also means that the historic part of the city was quite well kept despite the bombing in World War II.

But all the people have been out on the streets. We've seen them all day. Very quiet once they started to evacuate the key areas. And now, of course, it's the middle of the night so we can't see any of them. But still a tense situation for the people here - Aaron.

BROWN: Gaven, thank you very much. Those pictures are something. Thank you very much. It's a very nasty scene there. It's nasty here, too.

We turn to the war on terror, a new tactic in the war, there's something quite American about it. The premise is simple: sue 'em. Find out who's supporting al Qaeda, take them to court, try and take their money.

Today, a group representing hundreds of people who lost family members on the Eleventh of September filed suit against banks, Islamic foundations, Saudi princes and the company run by Osama bin Laden's family. The lawyers are asking for billions of dollars, if not more, and they're accustomed to at least thinking about big numbers. They've taken on Libya, big tobacco. And, whatever you may think of trial lawyers, if you were in trouble, you would want these guys on your side.

Here again, CNN's Bob Franken.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN (voice-over): Hundreds of the victims' family members are joining in a multi-billion-dollar lawsuit aimed at those who allegedly provide support for the terrorists, who provide the money.

DEENA BURNETT, HUSBAND DIED IN 9/11 PA. CRASH: It's up to us to bankrupt the terrorists and those who finance them, so they will never again have the resources to commit such atrocities against the American people, as we experienced on September 11.

ELLEN SARACINI, HUSBAND DIED IN 9/11 WTC CRASH: This is now a defining time when we show terrorists that we will not stand still and allow them to do as they please. I join with the families of September 11 to strike back at the terrorists.

FRANKEN: The suit was filed in Washington, D.C., federal court. The lead attorney, Ronald Motley, one of the principal lawyers in the actions against the tobacco companies. Defendants range from Osama bin Laden to international banks, to Islamic charities, to the government of Sudan. But it was particularly aimed at Saudi Arabia. Targets include three members from the royal family.

RON MOTLEY, PLAINTIFF'S ATTORNEY: That kingdom sponsors this terrorism.

FRANKEN: Saudi officials reserved comment on the lawsuit, but insisted their country is part of the solution, not the problem.

ADEI AL-JUBEIR, SAUDI FOREIGN POLICY ADVISER: We are committed to rooting out terrorism. We have been cooperating with the international community on every single issue.

FRANKEN: The plaintiffs' lawyers say they got zero paper, zero help, from the State Department, where the favorable descriptions of diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia are ongoing.

PHILIP REEKER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: I think we've been quite clear about the support that Saudi Arabia has given to us.

FRANKEN: The victims' lawyers are the first to admit that their lawsuit faces huge obstacles: legal, as well as diplomatic. But they're determined, they say, and so are their clients.

MATT SELLITTO, FATHER OF WTC VICTIM: The banks, so-called charities and the individuals named in this action have the blood of my son on their hands.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: The lawyers say they expect many more people to join, as matter of fact, they expect more than a thousand. But as one the participants in the lawsuit said, there will never be closure -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, we agree with that part. What's the next step here? They go to discovery, and what is it that they're trying to discover. Well, as a matter of fact, it's interesting. One of their aims here is to make those people overseas come to the United States, force them to come to the United States, and testify under oath on this side of the Atlantic.

So part of this is to just really to cause them to be embarrassed, to perhaps humiliate some of them. There's going to be a tremendous amount of legal maneuvering, of course the pressure on the defendants would be that if they don't participate, there could be a summary judgment.

In other words, the judge would say, as a result they have to do whatever the defendants ask, so there's going to be a huge amount of legal maneuvering complicated by the diplomatic interference that might come, too.

BROWN: And one more question. We've known Ron Motley for a long, long time, and while I'm sure he's interested in symbolic victory, he wants the money, and he believes he can get, if not all of it, at least some of it, because it's here, right?

FRANKEN: Well, the money is there, but what is so complex here is the diplomatic part of this thing. The State Department, of course, has an interest in it.

There are many people, many experts who say that the administration cannot afford to just allow this to go forward. You're aware that there have been complications in other lawsuits where the plaintiffs have won in court but the State Department has interfered. So this is going to be a long road.

BROWN: That will be an interesting fight in and of itself. Mr. Franken, thank you. It's good to see you. Bob Franken in Washington tonight.

Across the Potomac in Washington, a quiet victory to report. Eleven months after American Airlines Flight 77 slammed into it, the Pentagon is nearly whole again. It is absolutely true that we pay less attention to the Pentagon than we do to the Trade Center site. The work to rebuild there has gone ahead quietly and without much controversy, and not much news in that, we guess.

But this is wonderful news indeed. This morning, some of the people whose offices were destroyed went back to work. Most are Marines and the civilians who work with them in the Pentagon. They were located in what's called the E-ring of the complex, the outer portion of that building. More or less disintegrated when the plane struck it.

Officials expect the entire reconstruction effort to be completed by the end of the year.

On the subject of anthrax now, and complaints about the investigation, some of which you heard on the program last night. Patrick Clawson, the spokesman for Dr. Steven Hatfill, told us the FBI is conducting the investigation as if his friend, Mr. Hatfill, were the only person of interest, to borrow a phrase.

Today, sources close to the investigation, knowledgeable in the techniques of the FBI, defended the way the bureau is doing business, but in fairness, neither we nor Mr. Clawson, have the entire picture here, just two sides of the same story. CNN's Kelli Arena with a report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARENA (voice-over): The FBI and its supporters say there is nothing wrong with canvassing this Princeton, New Jersey neighborhood showing only one photo, that of researcher Steven Hatfill. Former FBI official Buck Revell offers this defense.

BUCK REVELL, FORMER FBI COUNTERINTELLIGENCE OFFICIAL: This is to determine if a specific individual has been seen in a specific neighborhood, and it's a very appropriate investigative technique.

ARENA: Testing continues to see if preliminary findings showing anthrax contamination on a mailbox in Princeton are confirmed.

Investigators now believe some of the anthrax letters may have been mailed from that area last fall, and has made the surrounding neighborhood a focus of the investigation.

PATRICIA EMERY, STOER MANAGER: The block has been kind of swarming with guys in suits in 99-degree weather, so we knew there was something up.

ARENA: Officials say there are at least 20 so-called persons of interest under scrutiny. But agents are only showing Hatfill's picture.

PATRICK CLAWSON, HATFILL SPOKESMAN: He has been singled out. They are circulating only his photograph and not that of any other person. Second, if indeed he is being treated the same as others, then this country is in a serious, serious amount of trouble, because the constitutional rights of Dr. Hatfill are being trammeled.

ARENA: What's more, law enforcement sources say Hatfill is the only person who has been subject to a search under a criminal warrant. All this as the anniversary of the anthrax mailings approaches, leading some to question whether the FBI is short-cutting the investigation to name a suspect by that time. An FBI official says the bureau is following strict protocol, and supporters say publicity is not a factor.

REVELL: It is unfortunate that an individual who may not be involved is being perhaps somewhat stigmatized by this process, but there is nothing they've done that is illegal or improper, and their job is to solve the case, not to be concerned about the niceties of public relations.

ARENA: Officially, the FBI has been very careful not to comment on Hatfill or anyone else.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

And agents say they remember all too well the case involving Richard Jewell, who was wrongly identified as a possible suspect in the Olympic Park Bombing in 1996, who was later exonerated -- Aaron.

BROWN: All right. Let's look at someone other than Dr. Hatfill for a second. You've got 20 other people they are supposedly looking at. Does this group of people have something in common? Are they in any -- I don't mean connected as in they know each other -- but are they connected in some way?

ARENA: Well, they are. We are told by sources they're all members of the scientific community that have expertise in dealing with biological weapons such as anthrax and who would have had some access to a lab here in the United States. That would have given them access to the anthrax virus, Aaron.

BROWN: So domestic rather than foreign in any case?

ARENA: So far it looks that way. Of course, the investigators we have spoken to say they are not completely ruling out foreign activity. However, the investigation thus far has been focused primarily on domestic goings-on.

BROWN: Kelli, thank you. Kelli Arena in Washington.

Tonight, ahead on NEWSNIGHT, yet another trip for the pope, who's not in the best of health. This time he goes home to Poland. And up next, just what's going on with the weather? We'll take a look. This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A bit of perspective now on the flooding in Europe, and all the strange weather we've been seeing all around the world. Eighty years ago a French novelist wrote this about nature, and the nature of things. "A change in the weather," he wrote, "is sufficient to recreate the world and ourselves."

These days, people who look at weather for a living have been turning that phrase upside down and are asking this: By recreating the world with the cars and the factories and all the rest, are we changing the weather?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): If you're taking a snapshot of the world's weather these days, the image you'll get is, well, unsettling. There are those floodwaters that are raging through the ancient capitals of Europe.

In the United States, the government says last month was the fifth-warmest on record, and the records go back to 1895. And, perhaps most depressing of all, there is a giant, awful-looking dust cloud hovering over the heart of Asia, which, as strange as it may seem, might cause of a good deal of very bad weather.

NITIN DESAI, UNITED NATIONS: What it does is it actually lowers temperatures, changes, makes big changes in precipitation patterns, causing droughts in some places, floods elsewhere. It increases the chances of temperature inversion, which leads to severe health problems.

BROWN: The United Nations will spend a lot of time talking about the world climate at an upcoming summit on the environment later this month in South Africa. But is this strange weather, scorching in many areas, downpours in others, just occurring now, just this year? Or has it been with us for some time?

ANDREW REVKIN, ENVIRONMENT REPORTER, THE "NEW YORK TIMES": Any one year's heat or temperature or rainfall doesn't tell you a huge amount. What you look at is patterns, and the last 10, 15 years is where they've seen this spike that many scientists, they call it the hockey stick, because it's got this upward curve at the end that's like the end of a hockey stick.

BROWN: And after years of controversy, most scientists say human beings are in fact the ones responsible for that curve on the hockey stick.

REVKIN: They said, it appears that most of the warming of the last 50 years is human-caused, essentially from all the greenhouse gases, these heat-trapping gasses like carbon-dioxide that we've been pumping into the air basically since the Industrial Revolution. BROWN: Agreement on that, however, is not universal.

LAURENCE KALKSTEIN, CLIMATOLOGIST, UNIVERSITY OF DELAWARE: I don't think it's safe to say that man is responsible quite yet. I don't think we have the smoking gun. The majority of climatologists do believe that human involvement is at play here. But, quite honestly, we have not yet been definitively able to link the warming with human greenhouse gases at this particular point.

BROWN: But the hotter it gets each summer here, and the more unusual the weather seems over there, is leading practically every scientist involved to one single conclusion: get used it to it. Generally hotter summers, a generally warmer climate overall, the shape of the future.

KALKSTEIN: Now the question becomes, how much harm does that cause? And how much longer will it continue? Of course, if it's a human-induced factor, it can continue for many, many years, and then we can have a real problem. If this is just part of a natural cycle, maybe it will begin to go down again. No one can truly answer that question with perfection.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: At least not yet.

Here are a few stories making news around the country today, beginning with a man who's just accepted what we think may be one of the toughest jobs in America today. Jerry Regier was appointed by Florida's governor Jeb Bush as the new head of the state's very troubled Child Welfare Agency. He used to head the social service agency in Oklahoma for five years.

He replaces Kathleen Kearney, who quit Tuesday after a storm of criticism over children lost within Florida's system.

Abilene, Texas, a former prison guard arraigned today for allegedly kidnapping Nancy Chavez from a Wal-Mart parking lot. Paula Roach will be asked to enter a plea at a later hearing. If convicted, she could face a maximum of 99 years in prison. And an emotional day in court for a teenager who killed two students and wounded 13 others at a California high school last year.

When the school shooting seemed to dominate the news, Charles Williams, known as Andy, was sentenced to 50 years to life.

The teen said, "If I could go back to that day, I would never have gotten out of bed."

Some of the kids he hurt spoke today as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The bullet is still in me. It's in my back now. It entered from the front, missed my heart by one inch -- one inch from my heart, hit my lung, and now it's stuck in my back. My life was decided by one inch.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I forgive him, but that doesn't take away the pain that is still inside. That doesn't take away the fear.

BROWN: Andy Williams will be eligible for parole in the year 2051. He'll be 65.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, let them play. Something that could be said about both Little League and Major League Baseball. Also coming up on the program, the future of ground zero from one who must decide it. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

It's been said that boxing is America's tragic theater, and that seems to fit our boxing story tonight pretty well. It's about young kid with a whole lot of promise who committed a terrible crime, destroying someone else's life and almost his own. Almost. After decades behind bars, Joey Torres got himself out of jail and back in the ring. This tragic theater does not have a predictable ending or a predictable protagonist, as it turns out, either.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The top's down, the sun is shining. What kind of day are you having?

JOEY TORRES, FORMER BOXER: Every day, life is great, this is every day thing. This is my life.

MATTINGLY (voice-over): These days life for Joey Torres means living large.

TORRES: I'm the champ, baby.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you?

MATTINGLY: He's a big tipper. He's a big salesman for the hip- hop clothing line Thug Life (ph). He's an ex-boxer, ex-gang banger, and an ex-con who, until nine months ago, serving a near-lifetime behind bars for killing his manager in a fight over money.

TORRES: I went to punch him, and he pulled a gun from the drawer. I dove over the counter, and the gun, in the melee, I shot him in the shoulder. And, with my luck, he died of shock.

MATTINGLY: Also dying that day, Joey's dreams of a professional boxing career. Just 18 at the time, he was a top-ranked amateur, seemingly destined for the U.S. Olympic team. Instead, he spent the next 22 years fighting to save himself in some of the toughest prisons in America.

TORRES: I aspired to be the baddest of the baddest, and I found out that you don't have to be. You could be the smartest of the smartest, and education and knowledge is the key to life. MATTINGLY: Joey got that education, and from behind bars he organized charity youth events and befriended some of the biggest names in sports. He saved the life of a female prison guard who was being attacked by inmates. Then, Torres studied the law and found his ticket to freedom one night in an obscure provision in the California code.

TORRES: And I screamed, woke everybody up.

Shut up! (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you! Shut up!

I'm going home.

Yeah, right.

MATTINGLY: Turns out, he was right. A judge determined mistakes were made when Joey was sentenced, and after 22 years behind bars, ordered him released. The celebs he befriended while in prison sang his praises publicly.

ERIC DAVIS, FORMER MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL PLAYER: This man here is a prime example of how you can turn your life around if you believe in yourself.

RING ANNOUNCER: Ladies and gentlemen, the remarkable Joey Torres!

MATTINGLY: Joey believed in himself so much that four months later, at the age of 41, he stepped into the ring for his first and last professional fight.

But even though he was knocked flat on his face in round one, he came back to win with a controversial TKO in the second. Yet after all this success of freedom, as suddenly as Joey was released from prison, he could suddenly go back.

(on camera): A judge's decision to release Torres now being appealed by the Los Angeles DA The Los Angeles District Attorney's office declined to be interviewed for our story, saying it's still too early in the appeals process to comment.

It's an unusual position for prosecutors to be in, appealing a judge's decision. But there's nothing unusual about the possible outcomes. Either Joey Torres goes back to prison, or he goes back to court to face the same charges all over again.

(voice-over): An attorney for Torres is pursuing a new deal with the DA that would keep Joey free with time served. Though retired from the ring, he still goes to the gym almost every day to work out his frustrations, aware that he's in for the biggest fight of his life.

TORRES: I'm going to beat this. I'm going to beat this. I have to beat it. I have got to beat it. I've beat everything else.

MATTINGLY: In the meantime, he's shopping his story around to publishers and to Hollywood. All it needs now, he says, is a happy ending.

David Mattingly, CNN, Las Vegas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We're halfway home for a Thursday night. Much left to do. At the end of the program we'll take a look at the Little League controversy, the latest one. We'll also talk about the future of Ground Zero tonight. And the pope's trip to Poland as well. Is the pope's retirement ahead? So there's much to do in the next 30 minutes.

This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Pope John Paul returns home to Poland tomorrow. We don't often think about it, but popes do have homes to go back to. They have parishioners and families and childhood friends and history, this pope, especially so. Pope John Paul II is a hero in Poland, of course, but at least in a physical sense, he is a fading hero. So his latest visit carries more than the usual significance because it may well be his last.

John Allen joins us again tonight. He is in Krakow tonight. He's the Vatican correspondent for the "National Catholic Reporter" and a religion analyst for CNN.

John, good to see you in more ways than one as it turns out, it's good to see you.

JOHN ALLEN, CNN RELIGION ANALYST: Hi, Aaron.

BROWN: An awful lot of rumor, lot of talk about the possibility of the pope's retiring. Where is this all coming from?

ALLEN: Well, largely out of thin air. The reality is that this is an aging, an ailing pope who has been in office now for some 23 years. And I think that inevitably that invites some speculation about how the end game might play itself out. But if you talk to the people around the pope, which I've been doing again this week in the light of some of these rumors, there's absolutely no current thinking about a resignation. In fact, I interviewed Monsignor Renato Bacardo (ph), who is chief organizers of Papal trips this week, and he stepped me through what he's doing to get ready for his next trip to Croatia and what seems an increasingly likely trip to Manila in January.

So while clearly the pope's weakness, his physical condition, beckons a certain degree of speculation about what might happen at the end, we're not there yet, Aaron.

BROWN: I don't want to make this grossly secular, but there's no palace coup sort of thing going on where people within the Vatican structure itself seem to spreading rumors in an effort to try and encourage the pope to resign? ALLEN: You've obviously been reading some Papal history. This sort of thing has happened in the past. My read however at the moment is that that's not what's going on. I think what's going on is that talk about a Papal resignation simply makes good journalistic copy. And so people like to write about it, like to sort of tease out the scenarios.

But the reality is, that the pope, in terms of his mental, his psychological, his emotional condition, is much stronger than the worst 30 seconds that you see on TV would suggest. In fact, I had lunch with a senior Vatican official last Saturday who tells me he really believes something has happened in the last few months, because the pope seems a stronger man than we were seeing him even, say, six months ago or perhaps the trip to Bulgaria just few months ago.

So I mean, clearly, look, the guy is 82. He has got a number of serious physical problems. At some stage, something dramatic is going to happen. But I think what I get from the people around the pope is that that moment has not yet arrived.

BROWN: And has the Vatican moved forcefully and publicly to shoot this sort of talk down?

ALLEN: Well, they've moved him out as forcefully as they ever do. Look, nine times out of 10 you can publish something false about the Vatican and they're not going to respond to it because they think it's beneath their dignity. Now on stories like this, the Vatican spokesperson, Joaquin Navarro-Valls, has said unequivocally, look, the pope is not going to stay in Poland. The pope is coming back at 6:30 on the nineteenth, as we've planned.

In my interview with Monsignor Bacardo this week, he said exactly the same thing. He said I can rule this out flatly, unequivocally with no scintilla of doubt that the pope is not going to remain in Poland. He's going to be coming back to Rome to take up his duties. So that's as clear and as firm a denial as you ever get from the Vatican on anything.

BROWN: So then tell us what you expect these days in Poland to be like for the pope now?

ALLEN: Well, this is an unusually personal journey, I would say. Normally he's coming to meet with the local church, he's coming to follow what is a fairly standard schedule. But in this case, he's doing things that really come out of his own personal biography. He's going to be dedicating a shrine to Divine Mercy, which is a devotion that was launched by a Polish nun in the early 20th Century, who is very near and dear to the pope's heart. He is going to be visiting a cathedral that prayed at as a young man. He's going to be going to a sanctuary outside of Krakow that he visited, he and his family when he was young. He'll be praying at the tomb of his parents.

So I expect that it's going to be a very wistful, a very nostalgic sort of trip down memory lane for Karol Wojtyla. And although, I hasten to add, this is his ninth trip to Poland, on his sixth, seventh and eighth, we were also talking about it being his last. So I wouldn't rule anything out. Nevertheless, most of the Poles I talk to feel a special urgency to try to turn out for this event because they know it may be their last chance to see this man on his native soil. And so there's going to be that atmosphere of a potential farewell surrounding the thing as well.

BROWN: We're envious, it sounds like a wonderful story to cover over the next several days, it's always good to talk to you, John. Thank you very much. The pope's journey home at 82.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, controversies from Little League to the big leagues.

And up next, the huge question for New York and the country and for history as well: What to do with those 16 acres. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Your ideas for ground zero now. We got a bunch to flip through, so we'll dispense with the big windup, though I'm partial to the big windup.

We're collecting your ideas on the Web site CNN.com/NEWSNIGHT. Not a contest, no prizes. We love your ideas, however, and we spend a lot of time looking at them throughout today. This one came from Israel. Its theme we've seen quite a bit: Towers as wire frames. Kind of interesting.

And we like this drawing from Carmen in Iowa. Grass and trees around a stone plaza with statues of firemen and policemen walking toward the plaza center. Another theme we've seen quite a bit: Beams of light as part of the memorial. This comes to us from David Lopez in New Jersey.

Andrew in Florida had beams, as well, with reflecting pools and footprints -- in the footprints, rather, of the old towers.

Scott from Colorado, sort of interesting concept here: A tower that is a 2,823-feet high -- you know what that number means. That's one foot for each victim. And, from Alan from North Carolina: a bold new building that would retain the original purpose of the Trade Center, creating office space, says Alan. The real estate is simply too valuable to be used just for a memorial.

In our view it is hard to overstate the complexity of the challenge for those 16 acres. There are so many competing needs and hopes, and each, in their own way, is absolutely valid. The city will someday need all that office space, maybe not today, but eventually.

The families, the country, history requires a memorial as special and as wonderful as the attack was horrible. The people charged with satisfying these competing needs are the members of the LMDC, the Lower Manhattan Development Corporation. Roland Betts of the LMDC joins us now.

I said to you before you sat down, that I think you guys, all of you -- you're not all guys -- is both a blessing and a burden that you carry.

This is such an enormously important project. A number of decisions have been made in the last 48 hours. Let's talk about the memorial decision first, which has been thrown wide open.

ROLAND BETTS, LOWER MANHATTAN DEVELOPMENT CORP.: Let me back up just a second and talk to you about the decision that we made, that we went public with yesterday, which is to throw this open, to bring in five new architectural firms.

As you know, we released six plans about a month ago. Those plans have been widely discussed all over the world. I mean, you talk about the humbling nature of this experience. On the 16th of July, when the plans were released, by 5:00 p.m. in the evening, on our Web site, we were receiving hits at a rate of 4,000 per second.

BROWN: That's unbelievable.

BETTS: From around the world.

BROWN: Yes.

BETTS: By 10:00 p.m. at night we had received 50,000 visits to the Web site. All of this just suggest the tremendous interest that the public has in this process. Honestly, looking at some of the plans now. The plans have been exposed extensively. There was large meeting (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and so on, and we've been in a listening mode, trying to figure out what elements of the plans are keepers, if you will, and what elements of plans need further attention.

There are several things that I think the public responded positively to and will be part of the program going forward. The most dramatic, I think, is this big boulevard that runs from the World Trade Center site all the way down to the Battery Park, which we've analogized to the Champs Elysees. It's the same width and roughly two-thirds the length.

The issue of restoring the footprints to the original site is extremely important. Whether they're pedestrian -- restoring the street grid to the original site is very important. The issue of footprints is very important, although...

BROWN: The footprints, for people who don't know, is where the buildings literally stood.

BETTS: Yes, where the buildings literally stood. Should they be treated as hallowed ground, as they are, for example, in the Oklahoma City memorial, or should there -- should there be buildings related to the memorial allowed to touch them or encroach on them or something in that nature.

BROWN: I want to move you along just because I hear the clock ticking even as you might not. On the memorial itself, and I think this is a decision that will please lots of people, you're essentially saying we want to see the best ideas out there for the memorial. BETTS: We want to see the best ideas on all of this. I mean, the memorial process is going to be very big, very open, very competitive. The addition of the five new architects that we're -- the RFQ we've sent out today for the five new architects is designed to bring energy and creativity and excitement to the plans. And so the two efforts are related.

BROWN: We've got about a minute left. Let me just a couple quick ones. Do you think you can make everybody happy here, maybe not immediately, but you think maybe 10 years from now, when it's done, actually, we'll look this and go, bingo, you got it?

BETTS: Well, you know, I certainly hope so. We are searching for that higher ground. We think there's a great idea out here. And it's everything that we're going to do to find it.

BROWN: There is so much here of -- for us to talk about. I hope you will come back. Went much too quickly today. But again, I think those of us who are familiar with the work the LMDC is doing have great respect for the effort that you're making.

BETTS: I appreciate it.

BROWN: Thank you. We wish you nothing but great luck.

BETTS: Thank you very much.

BROWN: We also believe you'll need it.

BETTS: Yes.

BROWN: Thank you very much.

Next on NEWSNIGHT, little kids from Harlem get the OK to play ball. We'll look at that. Plus the big boys, too. All of that and more as NEWSNIGHT wraps it up for Thursday. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Finally from us tonight, kids playing baseball. What could be simpler than that? Right. This is the Little League World Series we're talking about. Controversy again this year, and again, it has to do with a team from New York. Late today, the league or Little League or the people who run that thing ruled on the controversy, saying the Harlem kids could play, looks like they dodged a bullet here, but things are never, of course, that simple, in Little League or the rest of life. Which is why make Keith Olbermann join us really late in the program.

Good to have you.

OLBERMANN: My pleasure.

Were they really 12-year-olds? Were they really from Harlem? The simple answers to both questions were yes. Little League headquarters ruled tonight that the Harlem organizers had messed up their paperwork, but that their kids can play in the Little League World Series. But, those answers came only after two investigations, and a controversy that is not likely to just go away. And, unfortunately, controversies are nothing new to this game in which the kids are often bewildered bystanders.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): The Harlem Little Leaguers, winning the Mid- Atlantic Championship Tuesday night. Was this celebration earned and honest? or was it like this celebration just year ago by a team from just a few miles away. The Bronx All-Stars, third place, 2001. Led by pitcher Danny Almonte, and nicknamed in honor of their neighbors, the New York Yankees, the Baby Bombers.

Only Almonte wasn't quite enough of a baby. He proved to be 14 years old. The Bronx kids were stripped of their laurels and Little League was stripped of a little more of its remaining innocence.

Little League is a long way for its start as an organization devoted to just letting the kids play. Every individual Little League worldwide is restricted both in terms of physical area and the number of 12-year-olds in that area. In 1992, Zamboanga (ph) in the Philippines beat Long Beach, California, for the championship, but it proved half the Philippines players weren't from Zamboanga. Long Beach was declared the champion.

Last month the coach the coach in Kearny, New Jersey, was accused of telling his players to lose so their opponent had a better chance of advancing in regional competition.

Once only the championship was televised. Now preliminary rounds are shown nationwide, and more kids shown crying nationwide.

According to the New York newspaper "Newsday," last week Little League officials and rival teams received anonymous accusations, by fax, by phone, by overnight package, that some of Harlem's all-star were overage. Those accusations against those players were officially investigated and dismissed.

One of the protesting coaches, Tom Raynor, of Hamilton, New Jersey, told CNN today: "They said to me the kids are eligible to play, then why is Little League still investigating? That means that they didn't investigate or didn't investigate thoroughly enough, so they just blew me off. Every kid in New York and the Mid-Atlantic region has been cheated if this is true."

And now neighbors have told "The New York Times" that three of Harlem's other stars, pitcher Alibay Barkley, shortstop Jeremy Lopez, and third baseman Andrew Diaz, all live at least part-time in other parts of New York City.

ARCADIO DIAZ, FATHER OF ANDREW DIAZ: Children, as you know, in the minority community, live with extended families. For whatever reason, which, you know, we have family problems, which I'm not getting involved in that, you know? But many of our children live with extended family, whether you call it an aunt, an uncle, there's a kid that lives with his grandfather.

OLBERMANN: Tonight clearing those children of extended families to play their first game Saturday against a team from North Carolina, Little League issued a written statement: "The tournament committee reviewed all of the facts involved and interviewed the families and other persons personally involved. The families also provided documentation."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

Unlike some international teams disqualified because their players were imported from literally hundreds of miles away, there was something of a question of degree here as well. According to the New York newspapers, two of the players lived part-time about two-and-a- half miles north of Harlem league's boundary, and the third baseman, Andrew Diaz, lives part of the time on West 170th Street. The Harlem league's northwestern boundary is at 160th Street. And that is about a 10-minute walk, Aaron, even for a 12-year-old.

BROWN: Let them play. Let's get on with it.

Now we have got a minute here, tell me about the big boys. Are they going to set a strike date tomorrow?

OLBERMANN: They're going to set a strike date tomorrow late in the morning or early in the afternoon. And that will be for games - or after the games of Thursday, August 29. So it's essentially two weeks from right now.

BROWN: So it gives them two weeks to get some business done. And on the business front, is there anything - actually, the sense was its moving along pretty well and then yesterday it hit a wall.

OLBERMANN: It did. The union is convinced that the strike deadline being set is the impetus that will be necessary to bring them over the hump in the so-called luxury tax bump.

BROWN: Yes, that's worked every other time.

OLBERMANN: But as I was going to point out, yeah, every time they have gone out - or set a strike deadline, they've gone on strike with one exception, and they only deferred it for a year that time.

BROWN: But - we just got a few seconds, not every strike has ruined - that's subjective, not every strike has killed off every season. Some strikes have been longer than others.

OLBERMANN: Right. And there are banking influences, as we discussed earlier, that could come into play here, because a lot of the owners are heavily in debt to the banks, and the banks might not want to see a strike last more than few days.

BROWN: Well, I'm sure they will resolve it in the spirit of the National Pastime.

OLBERMANN: The Little League spirit, how about that. BROWN: Well, I hope they resolve it one way or another. Thank you for coming in to do baseball, young and old.

Thank you for joining us as well. We're all back here tomorrow at, oh, let's say, 10:00 Eastern time. Join us then. Good night from all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

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