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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Pentagon Conducts Military Exercise; Bush to Speak Before U.N. Thursday; Afghans Commemorate Anniversary of Massoud's Death

Aired September 09, 2002 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening again, everyone. It is going to be a long and difficult week for all of us, on all sides of the camera. We seem to have 90 minutes worth of program tonight to get in the next 60, so we will keep this page short.
We have been thinking about a different kind of Ground Zero today. He had a name, and now he has a number. His name was Mychal Judge and his number is 00001.

The first official homicide at the World Trade Center, the number alone is fascinating. The authorities choosing to use five digits, clearly expecting the death total to top 10,000. The image of Father Judge was the first we saw of someone killed that day. His body, in fact, so different from the thousands whose would come after him.

His story was the first of so many we would learn about. The beloved fire department chaplain, the man with such a radiant smile, and a warm and giving heart. We think of him as a kind of Ground Zero, because the story of 9/11 at its core, is not about a place, it is about people. From case number 00001 all the way up to case 2,801. And the hundreds of others killed at the Pentagon and in Pennsylvania.

This week, we will have a lot of reporting on the big and important issues, but we hope that fundamentally, we will try and tell it through the eyes of people, and the people they left behind. To see only the big picture and the grand and important issues is to forget something equally important. We have been changed. We have all been changed by the friends and neighbors we have lost. We have been changed because even surviving changed us. We are different, and those stories will, in many ways, be our stories this week.

Quite a bit on 9/11 tonight, and today there was an intriguing story about air defenses being deployed around Washington, D.C. over the next few days. Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon begins it for us. So, Jamie, please, a headline?

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: The headline, Aaron, when I looked out my window at the Pentagon about halfway through the afternoon today, I saw a Stinger battery as air defenses went up around military installations in Washington. The Pentagon says it is just an exercise, but could be a sign of things to come -- Aaron.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you. On to Iraq and the White House trying to rally support for a possible war. Suzanne Malveaux is working tonight for us at the White House. Suzanne, a headline from you, please.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, President Bush is going to go before the United Nations to give Saddam Hussein an ultimatum, saying comply with weapons inspections, or face the consequences. But he's also going to give a tough talk to United Nations, telling them that they should enforce Saddam Hussein, to go ahead with those agreements, and force those agreements, or step aside and let the U.S. take action.

BROWN: Suzanne, thank you. A very different one-year anniversary story was marked in Afghanistan today. Christiane Amanpour is there for us. Christiane, a headline from you now?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, as America prepares to reflect and commemorate its disaster of September 11, here in Afghanistan they are also commemorating the loss two days earlier of the legendary military commander Ahmed Shah Massoud. He was the greatest of all resistance leaders here, and it is believed his death was linked to September 11. It is believed he was assassinated by al Qaeda militants. We will have a report on his legacy.

BROWN: Christiane, thank you. Good to see you. Back with all of you shortly. Also coming up on the program tonight, embarrassment of riches in terms of guests. A number of good friends of the program, people we admire and like a lot. Joe Allbaugh, the director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency is here. Some more personal thoughts on what happened to the country and to his friend, the president of the United States.

The New York City Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly is here with us as well. How safe is the city now. Preparations for Wednesday.

Documentary filmmaker Ric Burns is adding another episode to the New York documentary, to cover the extraordinary history of the last 365 days.

And David Halberstam joins us, and being David, he can talk about any number of topics involving 9/11, including the firehouse he spent months in, writing about the dozen men who were lost there.

And we will end it all tonight with a poem. "How My Life Has Changed." A poem written by a woman who lost many co-workers that day. We aired this once before, on the six-month mark. We do not generally air pieces again. But as you will hear, if you stay with us tonight, how could we not.

All of that in the hour ahead.

We begin with what is either one more security measure around the nation's capital or one heck of a coincidence. The Pentagon calls it a training exercise, nothing more. But Clear Skies II has the feel of an air defense operation set up just in time for 9/11/2002. And seeing it and considering what happened a year ago, training or not, this is the story that belongs at the top of the program. So we go back to CNN's Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon -- Jamie. MCINTYRE: This is also a story, Aaron, about how things have changed in one year. But the idea of this exercise, Clear Skies II, as you called it, is to see if the U.S. military could protect key targets in Washington with short-range Stinger missiles and battlefield radars. Now there is a lot of debate about whether there would be enough reaction time, whether there would be a danger of shooting down the wrong plane but that is what this exercise is about.

Now, as I said, you could look out my window today and see a Stinger missile launcher out there, but I can't show you that. The Pentagon asked us not to take any pictures of it. But just to show you what you might see if you were actually driving around places in Washington.

First of all, they have deployed some sentinel radars. These are battlefield radars. They would be quickly moved into position to track everything from cruise missiles to small planes. Then, to back it up, the avenger system. This is a -- mounted on a Humvee usually, Stinger missile battery. Each one of those tubes can fire four Stinger missiles at short notice.

And also, they are practicing with actual Stinger missile tubes, the handheld version that can be mounted on your shoulder to fire against a plane. Now at this point, none of these systems are armed with weapons. But the Pentagon is being very cagey about this. They are saying no live ammunition is being used in the exercise, but they will not say if any live ammunition is available nearby. Presumably, this is just going to be an exercise to test the connectivity and see if the whole concept works the way it is supposed to. But if there were an actual threat during the next four days, we are led to believe they would be able to get to live ammunition, and perhaps take some action, that a year ago was not possible -- Aaron.

BROWN: Wow! They call it a training exercise and I do not question that. The timing of it is obviously what is most intriguing here, so when you ask about them about the timing, what do they say?

MCINTYRE: Well, you know, originally before they announced this, they were planning to announce that it was both a training exercise and a security measure. But somewhere between the time when they came up with that idea and the announcement, they decided to just emphasize the training, and keep the security enhancement sort of an operational detail they did not want to discuss.

But clearly, it is both. And it does provide them some options that is they would not have had, if the worst were to happen. Now again, they are not really concerned about big airliners crashing into something. They are more concerned about small planes, which are harder to detect.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you. I imagine that the Pentagon and lots of places in your city in Washington it is plenty edgy these days. We appreciate your work tonight, thank you.

Al-Jazeera, the Arab news channel, today ran a portion of videotape it says came from al Qaeda. It is hard to know what to make of it, because we saw a few clips and what we saw was highly edited. Parts of the tape show what looks like the number of -- looks like rather, a number of the 9/11 hijackers planning their attack. There is a fragment of man's voice said to be that of Osama bin Laden, but it is just a fragment. We will know more on Thursday apparently, when Al-Jazeera airs the rest of the footage. Until then, what we have seen is pretty unsettling enough, as you are about to see from CNN's Nic Robertson.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): In this, the first video a group of September 11 hijackers, to be released by al Qaeda, there is little to hint at the atrocity these men are planning. Relaxing in an Afghan style classroom in Kandahar, the men bear little resemblance to their clean-shaven look they used to enter the United States.

According to Al-Jazeera, the Gulf news agency that obtained the tapes from al Qaeda, the men are Hamza Alghamdi, who helped crash United Airlines Flight 175 into the south tower of the World Trade Center. Saeed Alghamdi, one of the hijackers aboard United Airlines 93, that ultimately crashed in a field in Pennsylvania. Wail M. Alshehri, a hijacker aboard American Airlines Flight 11, the first plane to hit its target. And Ahmed Alnami, another of the hijackers aboard UA 93. Another of the tapes al Jazeera obtained, the suicide statement by Abdulaziz Alomari, one of the hijackers.

It is the second such video al Qaeda has released. This hijacker, who flew with Mohammed Atta in the north tower of the World Trade Center, cast scorn to the United States, and praises Osama bin Laden for his help.

ABDULAZIZ ALOMARI (through translator): God praise everybody who trained and helped me, namely the leader, Sheik Osama bin Laden, may God bless him.

ROBERTSON: The third tape, Al-Jazeera claims, carries the voice of Osama bin Laden. We hear what could be the al Qaeda leader naming and praising the hijackers for the first time.

OSAMA BIN LADEN (through translator): These great men have considered in their faith in the house of believers and undermined the plans of the crusaders, and their agents in the region.

ROBERTSON: For terrorism expert, Peter Bergen, this tape in itself, not conclusive proof bin Laden is alive.

PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: It obviously takes place after 9/11, but that does not necessarily prove that it happened in the last month or so. It could have been disproving material that was audio recorded with bin Laden earlier, late last year.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And that was a piece filed by CNN's Nic Robertson. We move on now to Iraq, and as the president gears up to make his case in front of the U.N. on Thursday morning, a thorn in the administration's side, the former U.N. weapon inspector is making the opposite case now in Baghdad, and getting lots of attention.

Scott Ritter addressed Iraqi Parliament today. "My country," he said, "is on the verge of making an historic mistake. Iraq is not a threat to its neighbors," said Ritter. "The administration," he said, "the U.S. administration does not have the facts to back up the allegations that Iraq is building weapons of mass destruction."

However, Mr. Ritter did go on to urge Saddam to let U.N. weapons inspectors back into Iraq to avert war. And it seems clear tonight that the president will push for exactly that, when he goes before the U.N. general assembly on Thursday, one last ultimatum for Saddam. The president has been lobbying other nations hard. The administration seems to have come to the conclusion that the case can be made that a number of governments who support would be welcome, if not necessary, are open to persuasion. Here again, CNN White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX (voice-over): President Bush is courting key U.S. allies to join him in the campaign to overthrow Saddam Hussein. Today, Canada's Prime Minister Jean Chretien, the two in Detroit, reviewed stepped up security measures along the U.S.-Canadian border initiated after September 11.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Nearly a year ago, we saw the terrorists, cold blooded killers, using our openness -- the openness of our societies against us. We were awakened to threats that can arrive across our borders. We realize, at least in our country, that we have become a battle field.

MALVEAUX: But the big question, how far does that battlefield extend? And will it include Iraq? Vice President Dick Cheney tells CNN the administration has irrefutable evidence Iraq is rebuilding and resupplying the biological chemical and capabilities. Today, the president called the head of the United Nations, the European Union and other world leaders, to remind them that the international community has a responsibility to force Saddam to comply with U.N. Security Council guidelines.

Aides say when Mr. Bush goes before the U.N. General Assembly Thursday, he will argue that the United Nations must immediately demand that Saddam allow weapons inspectors back to sites, at any place, any time, and that if Saddam does not comply, the U.N. should step aside to allow U.S. forces to follow through.

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We would like to have the support of the international community as we go forward here. We have worked with them in the past on this issue. In a sense, it is the failure of the international effort that puts us in the position we are in today, where we are having to even think about the possibility of military action in Iraq. (END VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX: President Bush will be meeting personally with half a dozen world leaders in the next couple days, in continued attempt to win international support before he addresses the United Nations. White House aides say, at the very least now, these world leaders are beginning to change their focus on how to confront Saddam Hussein -- Aaron.

BROWN: Before we get to the president on Thursday, we are going to hear from the president on Wednesday night just after 9:00 o'clock. Are we getting any signs out of the White House about what the president is going to say?

MALVEAUX: The president is actually going to say that the nation should remain strong, and is going to be a time for remembrance, for mourning, but also for people to look forward. It is supposed to set the stage for what is to come on Thursday, before the United Nations General Assembly. And that really is to take the war on terror one step further, that is to look to Iraq.

BROWN: Suzanne, thank you. Suzanne Malveaux at the White House tonight. The president speaks before the U.N. General Assembly. We will cover that on Thursday morning here on CNN.

A year ago today, a story moved only the AP news wire, an Afghan opposition leader had been killed. He was assassinated by a pair of suicide bombers. His name meant little to most people at the time, but his death would come to mean a great deal two days later. He was remembered today.

Again, here is CNN's Christiane Amanpour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Thousands of Afghans packed Kabul's national stadium, to pay tribute to their fallen resistance leader Ahmed Shah Massoud. He spent a lifetime battling, first the 10 year Soviet occupation and then the fundamentalist Taliban regime. This was a stadium of terror under the Taliban, said one speaker. Executions used to happen here. But on this day, the symbolism defied everything the Taliban ever stood for. Women took part. Modestly dressed, but not a burka to be seen. An 8-year-old girl addressed an audience of thousands. Under the Taliban, she would not have been able to attend school. Today she represented the nation's children, as she greeted Massoud's 13-year-old son and survivor.

The child himself had a stadium full of grizzled war veterans and mujahideen enthralled as he endlessly greeted dignitaries and extolled his father's legacy. "The enemies," he said, "thought that by killing my father the hero, Ahmed Shah Massoud, they could kill his dreams. They did not know that Massoud was more than just a mortal. He was an idea. A vision."

Massoud's body lies in a hilltop mausoleum in the Panjshir, north of Kabul. Black flags fluttered throughout the valley, and thousands of villagers came to pay tribute. He was killed by two Arabs, posing as journalists, believed to have been sent by Osama bin Laden. Their camera gear packed with explosives. His death was supposed to remove the last pocket of anti-Taliban resistance. Instead, coming two days before September 11, it preceded a massive U.S. campaign that ended the Taliban rule.

In Kabul, speaker after speaker said Massoud's goal was a free and independent Afghanistan. His vision was national unity. His religion, moderate Islam. In death his legend has only grown. He is lionized as a fearless warrior and martyr in the great struggles against both communism and terrorism.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And even as Afghanistan commemorates this anniversary, 10 months after the fall of the Taliban, there are parts of this country that are still at war with itself. And voice after voice, a chorus of criticism being raised, a chorus of warning really, that security is the key issue today. Without it, the new moderate transitional government may not survive, and peace process for this country may falter as well. Back to you, Aaron.

BROWN: Christiane, quickly, does the 9/11 anniversary have any particular meaning to the people of Afghanistan? It certainly set off a string of events that changed their lives.

AMANPOUR: Yes, it does, because without September 11, it is clear that Afghanistan would have probably been totally occupied by the Taliban. That, according to the president here. And as you know, Massoud led the northern alliance. After September 11, they became the U.S. allies, and history changed last November.

BROWN: Christiane, thank you, and we will see you Wednesday here. Thank you very much. Christiane Amanpour.

A number of interesting guests join us tonight. We begin with the New York City Police Commissioner Ray Kelly, to talk about the city on the anniversary, and the future.

This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: ... more money, I assume, by the way.

COMMISSIONER RAYMOND KELLY, NEW YORK POLICE DEPARTMENT: That is true. We need more money in a city that is coming close to $5 billion deficit.

BROWN: Yeah, these are tough financial times.

KELLY: Yes.

BROWN: When you were here, as you reminded me a minute ago, eight months ago, when you were appointed again, we talked about how running the police department changed, and how it is different than the first time you had the job. And you said then, that the biggest difference is, that now, counterterrorism really is the first focus, not the only focus, but the first focus. Have your feelings about that changed in the last eight months?

KELLY: Not really. I mean, we still obviously have to focus on conventional crime, and I am happy to report that crime continues to decline in New York City. It is down over 6 percent this year. The homicide rate is as low as it has ever been since we started recording it. But superimposed on that, are all the issues of counterterrorism. We have done a lot. We put a new kind of terrorism bureau in place. We have made our intelligence division a lot more robust. We are putting people in countries overseas.

We are doing our own intelligence analysis. We have retired Marine General Frank Labootie (ph) in charge of our counterterrorism operations. David Cohen, former director of the CIA -- director of operations of the CIA, is in charge of our intelligence operation. So we are doing a lot of things differently, but still the core mission of the department is to fight crime and keep the city safe as possible from conventional crime, as well as terrorism.

BROWN: I know, and I respect, that there is some things you will not answer even as I may curse under my breath, OK? Subways particularly vulnerable?

KELLY: Subways are an issue, no question about it. We saw what happened in Tokyo in 1995, with the sarin gas.

(CROSSTALK)

KELLY: So yes, the subways are vulnerable. We have police officers assigned to strategic posts and spots in the subway system. Certainly we are concerned about certain areas more than others in that system, and we have put additional resources there. The Metropolitan Transportation Authority is concerned. They are doing a lot to protect the system. But yes, it is an area of concern. We have lots of areas of concern.

BROWN: There are lots of areas in New York that are multi- jurisdictional, to make up a word. The port and the harbor, New York harbor, the city has responsibilities, the Coast Guard has others. To what extent is the city and the federal government talking more better, whether it is the police department and FBI, the Coast Guard and your guys? That whole thing?

KELLY: There is no question about it. There is a lot more cooperation. A lot freer flow of information from the federal government to the state and local agencies. We have a lot closer relationship with the Coast Guard, for instance. They have additional vessels here for the next week or so. So, communication has improved tremendously, and that is certainly very positive development.

BROWN: Are you nervous about Wednesday?

KELLY: Not nervous in the sense that we have information that Wednesday will be different than any other day. It is an anniversary. You have to be concerned about it. We all have, I believe, appropriate resources in place, and in the right places, to address any event that may happen. But...

BROWN: Is everybody working on Wednesday?

KELLY: Well, we have to police the city 24 hours a day, you know. We have to police it the next day. So we cannot have everybody working, but we will have additional folks working, certainly.

BROWN: I am sure I am not the first to tell you, I hope you have the most boring imaginable day. You spend it watching television.

KELLY: Me too.

BROWN: It is always nice to see you. God bless. Good luck.

KELLY: Thanks a lot.

BROWN: Thank you. Ray Kelly, the New York City police commissioner.

Coming up next, the man to call when the going gets tough. He is kind of a tough guy himself. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We pulled up a speech dated September 10, 2001. A speech given by Joe Allbaugh, the director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency. He said: "I believe there are three types of people in this world, those who make this happen, those that watch things happen, and those who wonder what just happened." I would like to think he said, that I am the first type. I want to make things happen. He would prove it the very next day, and the day after that, and in the weeks and the months that would follow.

We are always happy to have the director of FEMA, Mr. Allbaugh, with us. We will not call Joe. We are not going through that again tonight. It is nice to see you, sir.

JOE ALLBAUGH, DIRECTOR, FEMA: Thank you, Mr. Brown.

BROWN: Is it true that when you are out in Montana, they send out some little Air Force jet to bring you back?

ALLBAUGH: F-16.

BROWN: And did you fit in?

ALLBAUGH: Not exactly. I waited for a C-17 and then a KC-135. The ironic thing is, the KC-135 took exactly the same amount of time that an F-16 would take, so ...

BROWN: There you go.

ALLBAUGH: We made it back in fine fashion.

BROWN: You are the director of FEMA. You're also a friend of the president's. You're his friend.

What can you tell us about the president a year ago on the 11th? When you got to Washington, I think it was late in the afternoon.

ALLBAUGH: Arrived at about 4:45 from Montana, changed clothes. Went to the White House at 5:30. It was the first time we actually had an opportunity to speak.

He was, I think, shocked and angered, just like the rest of us as Americans at what happened. But I have never seen the President as resilient and resolved and focused as he was during that cabinet meeting, on into the evening at the PEOC. And ...

BROWN: I'm sorry, ...

ALLBAUGH: ... the speech that ...

BROWN: ... that's a word most people don't know.

ALLBAUGH: President's Emergency Operations Center.

BROWN: Thank you, sir.

ALLBAUGH: And then this speech to the nation that evening.

And I am proud that he is the President of the United States during these tough times for our country. He is not afraid to lead our country and to speak his mind about things that we need to talk about as a country.

BROWN: We, you and I on a cold Sunday -- as I recall, it was cold -- walked down to Ground Zero, walked through Ground Zero. We talked a lot that day. Have you been down there since?

ALLBAUGH: I go every time I come to New York City.

BROWN: And when you see it now -- and really, the day we went down there, it had been pretty much cleared out -- does it seem different, feel different to you?

ALLBAUGH: It is the same hallowed ground today as it was the very first day I showed up, which was on the 12th. And I am overwhelmed that in 8.5 months, heavy equipment operators, pipe fitters, steel workers, all types of people from all walks of life removed 100,000 truckloads of debris.

BROWN: There's a live picture there of Ground Zero tonight with the highway next to it.

ALLBAUGH: It's an incredible place. And it just goes to show you that we are a resilient country. And when we make up our mind to do something, we do it. And it sets us apart from the rest of the world, quite frankly.

BROWN: I suppose there's a million policy things we could talk about and probably should, but let me ask you a couple of things that aren't.

When you think about this year and the role of government, has your view -- I mean, you're a conservative guy and have a conservative view of government and what it does. Has your view of government and what government should and needs to do changed at all?

ALLBAUGH: No. None whatsoever. I think we're right no target insofar as what the citizens of this country demand of their government.

There are times, I know, particularly here in New York City, because there are so many people we're trying to reach and help, that we need to push the envelope as much as we possibly can within the law. I've asked Congress to do a multitude of things they have under consideration, all to help our neighbor, all to help our loved ones that are hurting right now.

And that's the job of government, to protect our shores, deliver the mail and take care of us in time of need.

And we at FEMA, we're lucky, because we essentially represent all that's good and great about America when we try to help those who are in need.

BROWN: FEMA is in the help business, essentially.

ALLBAUGH: Partially.

BROWN: Partially. When you look at FEMA of September 10th, 2001, was it ready?

ALLBAUGH: I think we were as ready as we possibly could be, given the resources that we had at the time. We are trying to lead our nation to be a better prepared nation. I think September 11 really got everyone's attention, insofar as what we have to do as a country. We're on our way.

Are we better prepared than we were on the 10th of September? Yes, we are. Are we where we need to be? No, we're not there yet, but we're on the right track. And it will take time.

And one thing that's great about our country is we never quit, we never give up.

BROWN: Where are you going to be at Wednesday?

ALLBAUGH: I'm going to see downtown.

BROWN: You're going to be downtown?

ALLBAUGH: Yes, sure enough.

BROWN: Yeah.

ALLBAUGH: That morning. Absolutely. I wouldn't be nowhere else. BROWN: Need I say, it's nice to see you and ...

ALLBAUGH: Thanks. I appreciate it.

BROWN: ... we know a lot of what the agency has done over the last year. And we -- I think all New Yorkers appreciate it a good deal.

ALLBAUGH: Well, thank you for what you do, and your compadres. I mean, part of this is a partnership to help educate everyone. And thanks.

BROWN: I wasn't fishing for one.

ALLBAUGH: No, I know.

BROWN: But I always appreciate it.

ALLBAUGH: You deserve it.

BROWN: Thank you, sir.

ALLBAUGH: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you. Joe Allbaugh, the director of FEMA.

With us still to come on NEWSNIGHT, a new chapter in Ric Burns' story of New York. This is NEWSNIGHT from New York. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: When documentary filmmaker Ric Burns was done with his film about New York, it clocked in at a mere 14 hours or so. The final two episodes were all ready to air last September just as the towers came crumbling down.

Mr. Burns knew immediately that the story demanded another episode to include this hugely important and historic event in the City of New York's history.

We're pleased that Ric Burns joins us again tonight. It's nice to see you.

Was it, beyond the pain of being here and going through it, was redoing or adding on to the film -- I'm going to use a word I'll regret -- fun?

RIC BURNS, FILMMAKER: It felt inevitable. I mean, ...

BROWN: OK.

BURNS: ... there's that -- by nightfall on Tuesday the 11th, it seemed clear that, you know, New York had already lurched forward into a new chapter of its history, who had probably begun that lurching before the 11th. BROWN: Do you think we're a changed city, really?

BURNS: I do think we're a changed city. And I think that, among the things that fell with the towers was the illusion that we could be a global city without being involved with the globe.

BROWN: Yeah.

BURNS: It's a funny kind of schizophrenic cosmopolitanism that I think New Yorkers had been engaging in for a very long time. And I think that we understood that, you know, you don't get the Internet and instantaneous financial transactions in Wall Street without also getting connection with all the blood and guilt and ...

BROWN: Yeah, that's a really interesting ...

BURNS: ... (INAUDIBLE) in the world.

BROWN: ... notion, because New Yorkers -- and I think people in the country who learned a fair amount about New Yorkers in the last year -- New Yorkers like to think of themselves as living in the capital of the world.

And this idea that we could live in the capital of the world but not, in a sense, experience the trauma of the world wasn't very realistic.

BURNS: I think that's over. I mean, I think we're a little bit like the largest ostrich with its head in the sand.

BROWN: Yeah.

BURNS: I mean, and although what happened on 9/11 seemed to come out of the blue, in many ways it was a very long time coming.

BROWN: There is a -- there was an event in World War II that seems to have some resonance. And I want to just -- I want to look at this.

But, was it 1940 ...

BURNS: Forty-five, ...

BROWN: ... '45.

BURNS: ... two weeks before the end of the Second World War.

BROWN: A plane hit what really was, in many New Yorkers' minds -- still is -- the great skyscraper symbol, the Empire State Building.

What happened here?

BURNS: You know, three weeks before the end of ...

BROWN: Yeah. BURNS: ... the Second World War, a plane, a B-25 bomber lost its way coming back from Europe. And some -- mistook the East River for the Hudson River, took a left turn right into the mid skyscrapers of midtown Manhattan.

And it was a -- barely missed a couple of the large towers. People could see it through broken clouds from the streets, looking up in horror below. And finally it smashed into the 79th floor of the Empire State Building, killing all the crew members, of course.

What was striking at the time was that, although there was death and carnage, it was, of course, nothing like the scale of what happened on September 11. And people on the south side of the building, opposite to where the plane went in, didn't even know the building had been hit, for lots of reasons.

And there was a funny way in which that moment, there at the end of the Second World War, especially after 9/11, was very haunting to us who had worked on the film. A sense in which -- that image of modernity turning against itself in New York.

All those air-minded things in New York -- skyscrapers, airplanes -- suddenly being turned against themselves was sort of a haunting premonition of what was going to happen 50 years later.

And there's a way in which, looking back, I think one can see that the events of 9/11 really have their roots in that period right after the Second World War, as America began this tremendous global projection of economic power, really unlike any other empire in the history of empires.

And that phrased in that context, World Trade Center is striking to discover that it was invented in 1946 by New Yorkers who understood, as that projection began, that there needed to be a place in New York which would be the headquarters of this new global empire.

BROWN: We have give or take about a minute here.

Have you thought about what you'd like to see down on that site?

BURNS: You know, not in the sense -- I'm not an architect, and I wouldn't presume, but ...

BROWN: Like, you know, just ...

BURNS: What I know in my heart is that it has to be something that soars, emotionally soars imaginatively and touches us all.

You know, I mean, I think it has to be tall. The Empire State Building doesn't want to be the tallest building in Manhattan, you know. It was probably, you know, grumpy when it was superseded by the World Trade Center, but I don't think it was happy to reassume that responsibility.

We need to have something that acknowledges what happens, but that soars and heals broken hearts. And I think that it's going to take all the wit and ingenuity of architects and urbanists and engineers to come up with something which answers this crying need, and answers it well, you know -- it's the most important building project, I think, in the history of New York City.

It has to answer that need while the whole world is watching. And the whole world really has a piece of Manhattan. New York is really a kind of a global possession. And so what happens down there matters tremendously and has to soar emotionally.

BROWN: I said at the beginning of the program, we seem to have loaded the program up with people who are good friends of the program, with people we enjoy having a lot with us. It's nice to see you again. You're certainly one of them.

BURNS: Good to see. Thank you for having me.

BROWN: Thank you. Filmmaker Ric Burns.

Tonight, coming up, a moving tribute to friends lost on 9/11. We'll talk also next with David Halberstam the writer in just a moment. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: It's a testament to our next guest that when you look through our guest file and see all the topics he can talk about, he is clearly a guy that knows stuff -- 9/11 and the new normal, a firehouse that lost a dozen men. He wrote a book on that.

The current situation in Iraq. He has been working in the way David works as a reporter. The battle in the Korean War, the topic of yet another book.

The guy can report and write, and occasionally will stop by and say hi to us. We're very pleased to have David Halberstam with us.

DAVID HALBERSTAM, JOURNALIST, AUTHOR, "FIREHOUSE": Nice to be with you.

BROWN: Good to see you. Let's do a couple of quick things here. Has your city changed? Do you feel like New York has changed?

HALBERSTAM: Well, it's more economically vulnerable. You've had a hard year economically because of the down -- the decline in the economy, and the tourism is down.

But I think the strength of the city, it's like you've been inoculated. The grittiness, the resilience of the people is just extraordinary.

The sense of New Yorkers of the pride of being together, of coming together after this. I think the resilience is extraordinary.

I think we all feel just prouder than ever -- and luckier -- that we're New Yorkers.

BROWN: Do you have any sense, any feeling one way or another as whether that's lasting or ephemeral?

HALBERSTAM: I think it's both.

BROWN: OK.

HALBERSTAM: I think that there was a sort of quick lift, and then underneath there's a truth to it. There was a price. You learn the vulnerability of the city you live in.

You appreciate more the people who are part of your lives, who make your life more bearable that you did not always see -- firemen, policemen -- ordinary people who are the support people in the city, and not the glitz of the city.

I think there's a greater appreciation of community.

I like to think of myself now -- I used to say I was a New Yorker. Now I like to think of myself as a citizen of the city.

BROWN: Of the city. Of this -- you mentioned firemen. I was thinking about you today. I was interviewing someone who had survived the collapse of the tower and was starting to feel the real pangs of survivor's guilt.

And I wondered if your firefighters who you wrote about in this firehouse up on the West Side here in New York, are starting to get that ...

HALBERSTAM: I think that ...

BROWN: ... that feeling?

HALBERSTAM: ... I think that a number of them had a very hard year. I mean, first off you, in a small firehouse, I don't know, maybe of 15 men you lose 12, I mean, sudden, all this burden on one little institution.

And they are close. There is an intimacy. You live together, risk your lives together, cook together, pair each other's houses together. And then you're caught immediately in taking care of their families, your families, doing all of these things.

And then there was some degree, probably, of survivor guilt. And then there's just exhaustion. And then there's the, hey, you do it and you do it and you're doing two or three jobs, and you're sort of lifting yourself up, month after month, week after week.

And then one day some of them, I think, have really hit a wall. I think it's very hard. I mean, they're extraordinary men. And what they went through is not -- it's almost like being in a combat unit where half your people are wiped out.

And you think, why not me? Why them? And it's very hard.

BROWN: Someone asked me today if I was nervous, or how I felt about the anniversary, and I said, it's ridiculous. There are real people who suffered enormously, about whom this anniversary must be profoundly powerful.

HALBERSTAM: And painful.

BROWN: And painful. And I think of the firemen, the Port Authority police officers, the -- and all sorts of others.

HALBERSTAM: I think the families, you know, that were ripped apart. I mean, ...

BROWN: Yeah.

HALBERSTAM: ... you tear -- it's like -- and the anniversary's hard. It's like tearing the stitches out. You have to go through it again. I think they are strengthened by each other, the families.

I talked to the widow of one fireman today, and she was saying, at least, you know, all the children were going to be there. And that was good. And they were good to be there as a family. But I think it's a hard time.

We observers, you know, you and I were very lucky. We didn't pay a very high price.

BROWN: As always, it's nice to see you, my friend.

HALBERSTAM: Nice to see you.

BROWN: Thanks. You come back again.

HALBERSTAM: Anytime you want.

BROWN: We'll talk about the new book next time you come back.

HALBERSTAM: OK.

BROWN: Thank you, David Halberstam.

HALBERSTAM: Thank you.

BROWN: Next on NEWSNIGHT, perhaps the best single piece we ever put on the program -- a moving account of how one person's life was changed by 9/11 revisited. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Finally tonight, a memory. In all the months of reporting this story, this one piece, the piece you're about to see, said better than anything what the story of September 11 was really about.

Not just war and terror and Ground Zero, but in thousands of homes every day, not just the 2,800 homes where family members died, but in their friends' home, and in the homes of the people they knew and worked with -- in all those places, about a person no longer there. One person. One life. Thousands of times over. This poem was written by a woman who worked in the Trade Center, worked for AON. We asked Mary Tyler Moore to read it for us. And as you will hear, she did.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARY TYLER MOORE, ACTRESS: "How My Life Has Changed," a poem by Hillary North, an employee of the AON Corporation, which lost 176 people on September 11.

I can no longer flirt with Lou. I can no longer dance with Myra. I can no longer eat brownies with Suzanne Y. I can no longer meet the deadline with Mark.

I can no longer talk to George about his daughter. I can no longer drink coffee with Rich.

I can no longer make a good impression on Chris. I can no longer smile at Paul L. I can no longer confide in Lisa. I can no longer work on a project with Donna R.

I can no longer get to know Yolanda. I can no longer call the client with Nick.

I can no longer contribute to Karen's book drive. I can no longer hang out with Millie.

I can no longer give career advice to Suzanne P. I can no longer laugh with Donna G.

I can no longer watch Mary Ellen cut through the bull, and no longer drink beer with Paul B.

I can no longer have a meeting with Dave W. I can no longer leave a message with Andrea. I can no longer gossip with Anna. I can no longer run into Dave P. at the vending machine.

I can no longer call Steve about my computer.

I can no longer compliment Lorenzo. I can no longer hear Herman's voice. I can no longer trade voice mails with Norman.

I can no longer ride the elevator with Barbara. I can no longer say hello to Steven every morning.

I can no longer see the incredible view from the 103rd floor of the South Tower.

I can no longer take my life for granted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Mary Tyler Moore.

A special program tomorrow of the stories of five people. Join us please. Good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com