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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Saddam Invites U.N. Weapons Inspectors to Return to Iraq Without Condition; Binalshibh in U.S. Custody to Tell What He Knows
Aired September 16, 2002 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, GUEST HOST: Good evening everyone. Aaron Brown is on assignment again.
You know, when we heard earlier this evening that Iraq says it will allow U.N. weapons inspectors into their country, we found ourselves wondering, Does Hallmark make a card for these kind of occasions? You know, something to send out at the very last second to head off an international incident, maybe even a war? Belated acquiescence to a super-power's insistence that you toe the line. That would be the category of the card. It would be right next to the birthday cards.
"Dear super-power," the card might read. "We really and truly did mean to get around to letting you know that of course, we'd be happy to allow arms inspectors back into the country. But gee, you know how it is, we've just been awful busy around here, shooting rifles off the balcony, petting small children, posing for posters. A strong man's day is never done. Isn't that the saying? Somehow, we never got around to putting pen to paper. Hope this note doesn't arrive too late. Sorry if our forgetfulness has caused you any inconvenience."
I guess there wouldn't be a really big market for such a card. There's one customer we can think of, though, which brings us to tonight's whip. We begin with a message from Iraq.
Andrea Koppel is following developments for us. Andrea, the headline, please?
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Okay. Well, Anderson, the rumors were flying all day long. Would he or wouldn't he? Then suddenly late afternoon the news broke, Iraq's President Saddam Hussein had called the U.S. bluff. He invited U.N. weapons inspectors to return to Iraq without condition.
COOPER: All right. More from that in a moment.
On to Buffalo and the sixth man in the custody, accused of supporting terrorists. Susan Candiotti is on that tonight -- Susan, the headline.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good evening. We wanted to tell you, Anderson, that in addition to that one more man now being in custody, tonight CNN has learned the identity of the final so-called mystery man, and government sources call him the recruiter in this operation -- Anderson.
COOPER: All right, back to you in a moment.
And now the latest on the al Qaeda operative captured last week. Kelli Arena is following the story from Washington -- Kelli, the headline.
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ramzi Binalshibh is now officially in U.S. custody. The next challenge is to get him to tell them what he knows -- Anderson.
COOPER: And the verdict today in the penalty phase for the man convicted of killing Danielle van Dam.
Thelma Guitierrez is covering that for us -- Thelma, the headline.
THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Anderson. The jury finally reached a verdict in the penalty phase of the David Westerfield murder trial. It is death by lethal injection for the man convicted of kidnapping and killing 7-year-old Danielle van Dam -- Anderson.
COOPER: We'll be back with all of you in a minute. Also coming up tonight, more on the breakthroughs we've seen in the war on terror with Michael Elliott of "TIME" magazine.
Aaron fans will at least get to hear his voice tonight in a fascinating piece about the mob. No not in New Jersey, and not on HBO, though. This is in Boston, a real story. A story about the gangster and the FBI agent who got in way too deep.
And if you've got something on your mind, make that anything on your mind, these two people want to hear it. A listening tour like no other. That is from Serena Altschul later tonight.
The United Nations heard from this country's secretary of state in person today. And heard from Saddam Hussein by mail. At about the same time that Colin Powell was meeting with Security Council members to prosecute the administration's case against Iraq, give or take an hour or two, a letter was being delivered to U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan that changes things completely, unless it changes nothing at all. Depends who you listen to, I suppose.
We listen tonight to CNN's Andrea Koppel, who has a report for us on Colin Powell's day at the U.N., that message from Iraq, and where things stand now in the face-off between the U.S. and Saddam Hussein.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KOPPEL (voice-over): The Iraqi curve-ball landed at U.N. headquarters late Monday, a letter addressed to the U.N. Secretary General. In it, Iraq accepts the return of United Nations weapons inspectors to Iraq without conditions. Its purpose, wrote Iraq's foreign minister, to remove any doubts that Iraq still has weapons of mass destruction. Kofi Annan welcomed the Iraqi offer and credited President Bush's tough talk at the U.N. for the sudden Iraqi about-face.
KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY GENERAL: I believe the president's speech galvanized the international community, as most of you had, his speech at the general assembly urged Iraq to accept the return of the inspectors.
KOPPEL: But the Bush Administration was hardly celebrating. "We do not take what Saddam says at face value," said one senior U.S. official. "There will be no negotiating."
It seemed as if Saddam Hussein had called the U.S. bluff. Secretary of State Colin Powell had only just begun to try to build consensus among U.N. Security Council members for a new, tougher resolution to force Iraq to accept weapons inspectors or else.
COLIN POWELL, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: We'll see whether or not Iraq understands the seriousness of the position that it is in and whether it will respond to this direction from the Security Council.
KOPPEL: Hours later, it appeared Iraq had taken the upper hand, possibly pre-empting another U.N. resolution, but definitely making Powell's job more complicated.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(on-camera): Now among the many unanswered questions, how would the rest of the U.N. Security Council react to Iraq's offer, and if they accept, how will the U.S. respond? According to one U.S. senior official, the U.S. will act to lay out requirements, or we will, but he, meaning Saddam, has no input -- Anderson.
COOPER: You know, obviously, we know the Iraqis don't have much credibility, and in your statements, you know, they say without conditions. Does that really mean without conditions? Or is this just a wait and see thing?
KOPPEL: I think it's a wait and see kind of thing, and I think when the Iraqis talk about it, what they mean is, you can come back in but remember, 11 years of history shows that the Iraqis have not allowed the U.N. weapons inspectors to ever have unfettered access, which is what the U.S. position was when Bush gave his speech last week. He said, "Look, we've got 16 resolutions. They haven't abided by a single one. What makes you think that they'll abide by the next one?"
COOPER: So exactly what happens now? What is the next step? This thing happened, you know, later in the day today.
KOPPEL: Yes. And now what happens is the letter from the Iraqi foreign minister has been passed to the various members of the Security Council. They presumably have gone back to consult with their capitals, and boy you better bet the sparks are going to be flying hard when they come back and have a meeting of the Security Council. Chances are, there will be not a few members who will say, "This is pretty good."
COOPER: And meanwhile, we've got the 220-some members of the inspections team have been sitting around for the last two or three years. So they're probably pretty excited tonight, I'd imagine.
KOPPEL: Well, they could be.
COOPER: All right. Thanks a lot, Andrea.
From the United Nations in New York, New York, to Buffalo, New York, and Bahrain. Five men who were rounded up over the weekend by authorities in Lackawanna outside Buffalo on suspicion that they once attended an al Qaeda training camp have been joined now by a sixth man, as we reported a few moments ago, also from Lackawanna, who was outside the country when the others were taken into custody.
Now the sixth suspect may have expected to be celebrating with his bride-to-be, but it wasn't to be.
Susan Candiotti has a report for us.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI: Plans for his parents to attend their son's marriage was what led authorities to locate suspect Mukhtar al-Bakri, arrested on his wedding day in Bahrain. The 22-year-old al-Bakri was put on a plane to the U.S. and arrested when he entered U.S. air space.
PETER AHEARN, FBI, BUFFALO: These were upstanding members of the community. They went to school; they did things, that's true. But frankly, that's the same thing that you heard about a lot of the 19 hijackers.
CANDIOTTI: Al-Bakri is a U.S. citizen, like the other five men who were rounded up in Lackawanna over the weekend. They are charged with participating in an al Qaeda training camp in the summer of 2001, and therefore providing material support to a terrorist organization.
Akman Al-Bakri says his brother did travel overseas but could not be involved in doing any harm to the U.S.
AKMAN AL-BAKRI: My brother loves this country. He just graduated from the high school, and he is a U.S. citizen. He's not a member of a terrorist attack or a terrorist organization.
CANDIOTTI: Al-Bakri was last in western New York in July before returning to Bahrain. FBI agents interviewed Al-Bakri on September 11 when America marked the anniversary of the attacks.
The government says Al-Bakri admitted going to an al Qaeda camp and implicated others. That prompted the weekend arrests. He appeared in court wearing leg irons and handcuffs. The judge appointed the unemployed former delivery man an attorney. A not guilty plea was entered on his behalf.
JOHN MALLOY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: My client, it seems, he's a little bit confused, because of everything happening so fast.
CANDIOTTI: Two other suspects are believed to be in Yemen, according to the FBI. One of their names, Jabel Al-Benah (ph), revealed in a criminal complaint unsealed in court.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
And tonight we have learned the name of the final so-called uncharged conspirator. According to government sources, he is called the recruiter. His name Kamal Derwish (ph), also from Lackawanna, New York, also a U.S. citizen, last believed to be in Yemen, although government sources admit to us this evening that they're not quite sure where he is.
So the last two men who are not in custody that authorities are looking for are nowhere to be found at this time. And we expect, Anderson, to learn more about the government's case on Wednesday and precisely what kind of goods that they have on these men that they say they do, during the bond hearing that day -- Anderson.
COOPER: In calling him the recruiter, I mean, it sounds like something out of a John Le Carre novel. Do we know anything more about him? I mean obviously, as you said, we don't know where he is. Do you know how he recruited people, where he recruited them?
CANDIOTTI: Well, certainly, one of the places, according to the government, would be right here in Lackawanna, New York, which is just south of Buffalo, a town of 20,000 people, about 2,000 or so of the population is very tightly knit Muslim community.
Now precisely how he went about it is not clear. Most of the people in the community, you'll recall, say that oftentimes young men were engaged to go overseas to Pakistan for religious training and then, it is alleged by the government, they went on to Afghanistan for this training.
Although when I posed the question tonight, Well, do you know for sure? to my sources. Do you know for sure whether these men intended to go on to Afghanistan to get al Qaeda training, as is charged?
And I was told, Well, that's a question that remains to be answered.
COOPER: You mentioned how some of them appeared in court. Do you know anything about the conditions that they're being held under? You know, access to lawyers, what sort of housing conditions they're in?
CANDIOTTI: They're in a federal detention center, much like others around the country, and they do have access to their lawyers, who for the most part have been appointed by the court. I know that some of them had visits today and will be meeting with them over the next day before their hearing on Wednesday.
COOPER: All right. Susan Candiotti, thanks. Fascinating stuff tonight. The developments in Western New York were dramatic and unsettling, but it seems fair to say that an arrest thousands of miles away is even more significant. Ramzi Binalshibh, the al Qaeda operative captured in Pakistan, important not just for what he knows about September 11 but also for what he may know about any such future September 11.
Here's Kelli Arena.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ARENA (voice-over): Now that Ramzi Binalshibh is in U.S. custody, the objective will be to get him to talk.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He's the one that thought he was going to be the 20th bomber. He thought he could hide. He thought he could still threaten America. But he forgot the greatest nation on the face of the earth is after him. One person at a time.
ARENA: While he's not believed to be a senior member of the al Qaeda organization, the information that Binalshibh provides could be vital and could include intelligence about future attacks.
U.S. officials say the plan is to interrogate Binalshibh at an undisclosed location. It's the same tactic used with considerable success with another al Qaeda operative, Abu Zabaida (ph).
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: The more these people are rounded up and put in jail and interrogated, the more difficult it is to recruit, the more difficult it is to retain people, the more difficult it is to raise money, the more difficult it is to transfer money, the more difficult it is for those folks to move between countries, the more careful they have to be in everything they do.
ARENA: During the raid last week in Pakistan, another al Qaeda operative was also taken.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(on-camera): U.S. officials identified that individual as Umar al-Gharib. He is described a s mid-level al Qaeda operative, but his brother, Khallad Tawfiq al-Attash, is thought to be one of the masterminds behind the bombing of the USS Cole.
Anderson, back to you.
COOPER: Okay. Correct me if I've wrong, but previously the U.S. government was contending that Zacarias Moussaoui was the 20th hijacker. Now we're being told that this new man who's in custody, Ramzi, was actually the intended 20th hijacker. This -- Does Ramzi's arrest do anything to the government's case against Zacarias Moussaoui?
ARENA: No, Anderson, because the government has never alleged in its indictment that Moussaoui was intended to be the 20th hijacker. He's charged with conspiracy. Overall, that was something that sources had told CNN and other news organization that that was their belief.
But you have to consider the timeline here. Ramzi Binalshibh had tried to enter the United States four times, was denied four times. The thinking went that because he couldn't get into the country, that Moussaoui was recruited late in the game. So you have to look at the timeline there.
But no, there was nothing to do -- it won't have any affect on Moussaoui at all.
COOPER: And Michael Elliott from "TIME" is going to be meeting with us in a little while. We're going to talk more about this.
But I just want to ask you one more question tonight, which is that: what to me seems so significant in this and, again, correct me if I'm wrong, is that this guy basically knows about the money operations, knows about the set-up of al Qaeda throughout the world, and if he talks, I mean, that would be an extraordinary window into their ongoing capabilities.
ARENA: Well, absolutely. According to investigators, he provided support and logistics. He was a logistics guy, so the thinking goes that he may very well know about other operations that could be in the works, that it is stuff that he could have met with other al Qaeda leaders during this past year and it's thought that he has always been in Pakistan, since last September 11. So that could be vital.
But again, he is the only person that is in custody with any direct knowledge of the September 11 attacks. So that, of course, will help them fill in all the blanks that are remaining.
COOPER: All right. Good news. Thanks very much, Kelli.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, the jury rules in the murder trial of child killer David Westerfield.
And up next, as I mentioned, we'll talk with "TIME" magazine's Michael Elliott for insight about the continuing al Qaeda round-up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(AUDIO/VIDEO GAP)
MICHAEL ELLIOTT, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, "TIME" MAGAZINE: ...also to Zacarias Moussaoui at one point. And generally being the kind of German end of the operation.
COOPER: And that's why it's so major. I mean, as Kelli Arena said, he's the only one in custody who, as far as we know, has direct knowledge of September 11.
ELLIOTT: There may be two or three people in the world who have as much knowledge as he does. He is one of a tiny, tiny handful of people who really know what went on a year ago, involved in the planning, involved in the execution, involved in the logistics. Incredible catch.
COOPER: Obviously, no one can say whether or not he will talk.
ELLIOTT: No.
COOPER: He's now in U.S. custody at an undisclosed location.
ELLIOTT: Right.
COOPER: Do we know anything about the methods that are being used to get these people to talk? I mean, I know it's obviously kind of a gray area.
ELLIOTT: No. I think it's a very gray area. And I think the methods vary a lot, depending on whether we have them or whether we let someone else have them. But if we have them, I think you can guess that it's the kind of range of psychological pressure.
COOPER: Right.
ELLIOTT: Sleep deprivation. Waking people up in the middle of the night. Withholding and giving them food.
COOPER: I talked to one of, actually a former covert operative who said that, you know, another big technique is threatening to hand them over to another country.
ELLIOTT: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
COOPER: Say, Israel, whose methods might be more severe.
ELLIOTT: Oh, yes. And if these guys are, for example, nationals of Yemen or Egypt or Syria, neither of whose security forces have the delicacy of ours, and if they're wanted on charges there, then all you have to say is to suggest that maybe they'll be handed over.
COOPER: Because, I mean, some have talked. This other man, Omar Al-Faruq, is talking, apparently.
ELLIOT: Yes. Although from what we can gather he clamped up for three months, because he was initially arrested in June in Indonesia; and then our understanding is that he really started singing just a week ago last Monday.
And the story that he had was absolutely hair-raising because what he said was that he had been instructed by very, very senior al Qaeda guys to do a bombing campaign throughout Southeast Asia.
And here is really what got people spooked. He told his investigators that even though he was in detention, he had set up a scheme so that others would carry on the war while he was locked away. And that, of course, was one of the reasons they moved to Code Orange last week.
COOPER: Right, and that was, my understanding, the primary reason.
ELLIOTT: Absolutely. That's what we understand without question.
COOPER: And do we know where he's being -- he was in Bahrain.
ELLIOTT: He was in Bahrain. He was arrested in Indonesia. He was in Bahrain, and I don't know where he is now. I don't know where he is now.
COOPER: But what is so significant is that he provides a window on al Qaeda operations in Southeast Asia, which is where people are believed to...
ELLIOTT: Exactly. I mean, he has, as it were, given proof to what academics and analysts have been surmising for the past six months, which is that al Qaeda would move to Southeast Asia, where they have lots and lots of rich targets and lots of places for them to hide.
And here comes Al-Faruq, essentially proving that thesis in a big way.
COOPER: It's a great article in "TIME" magazine about -- this month and one of the things that really surprised me was that, you know, I think it was "The New York Times" who last week had said that reports were that a lot of al Qaeda people are moving back into Afghanistan. "Time" magazine this week says no.
ELLIOTT: We don't think that's the case. Our reporters say that Afghan intelligence officers are not detecting a lot of al Qaeda people moving back into Afghanistan, which objectively doesn't surprise me. You know, people go where they feel safe. There are a lot of American and allied soldiers in Afghanistan. They may not be getting everyone we want them to get, but they're getting some people. So Afghanistan is quite a dangerous place, I think, if you're an al Qaeda terrorist.
COOPER: You know, these names suddenly pop up that we've never heard of before. Who now -- obviously, Osama bin Laden we're looking for. Are there other people that we should be thinking about?
ELLIOTT: Yes. I think the next guy to keep an eye on is someone who is usually called -- he has a number of aliases -- Karl Shaik Mohammed (ph), who was the other master mind of the September 11 hijacking. And in an interview with the Al Jazeera a couple of weeks ago, actually, an audio tape made last week, he described himself as the chairman of al Qaeda's military committee.
He was in Pakistan with Binalshibh, because they were interviewed by Al Jazeera together. but we don't know where he is now.
COOPER: All right. Michael Elliott, thanks a lot. It was a great article in "TIME."
Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, the Westerfield trial. The verdict is in. We'll have that when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: More now on the jury decision today of David Westerfield for the murder of 7-year-old Danielle van Dam.
Now, during the penalty phase of the case, defense attorneys tried to portray Westerfield as the regular dad next door, a guy with no prior felony record. A good man, one of them said. But for one three-day weekend of terror.
Some legal analysts have pointed out that it seemed like it could be a pretty risky strategy, that it might come across as worse, that a seemingly normal man could commit such a terrible act.
Today a jury decided three horrible days out of 50 years of life were horrible enough to warrant the death penalty. The verdict did not come without its own bit of drama. Jurors initially said today they were deadlocked and a short time later came back with a decision.
Once again, here's Thelma Gutierrez.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GUTIERREZ (voice-over): David Westerfield sat quietly. He stared straight ahead and trembled, as he often does in court, as his punishment was read.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We, the jury, determine that the penalty shall be death.
GUTIERREZ: The same 12 men and women who convicted the 50-year- old father of two of kidnapping and murdering 7-year-old Danielle van Dam in the guilt phase of the trial, recommended the most severe punishment in the penalty phase: death by lethal injection.
TONY, WESTERFIELD JURY FOREMAN: You sort of enter into this thing, you know, possibly knowing that you're for the death penalty, but yet you've never been put to the test in terms of making a vote on it; and everybody had to go through that step in their mind of, "Holy cow, this is real."
GUTIERREZ: All too real for the van Dam family, who hurriedly left the courthouse without addressing reporters.
As for jurors impaneled back in June...
TONY: Personally, I had a hard time thinking about anything else, so it was difficult. So I'd go home and I'd sort of continue thinking in my mind about everything.
GUTIERREZ: For most of the summer, this trial and this job had been all-consuming for the six woman, six man panel.
PAUL PFINGST, SAN DIEGO COUNTY D.A.: The jury was forced to look at exhibits that can only be described as gruesome. They were forced to look at pornographic evidence that was extraordinarily distressing. They were forced to consider the loneliness and terror that confronted a 7-year-old girl prior to her death. They were forced to walk into, or required to walk, into a vehicle where we believe the little girl was killed and think about what happened to that little girl.
These are traumatic life experiences.
GUTIERREZ: Two jurors spoke out, saying despite the emotional testimony, the van Dam's so-called swinging lifestyle and the bug experts who testified on the time of death issue, it all came back to the physical evidence.
TONY: The blood.
JEFFREY, WESTERFIELD JUROR: The blood.
GUTIERREZ: Danielle's blood, found on Westerfield's jacket.
JEFFREY: We were very methodical about it. We all had been through so much, taken a long time. We wanted to do it right.
GUTIERREZ: Defense attorney Steven Feldman had only this to say to the media.
STEVEN FELDMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: We're all very disappointed in the verdict, of course. But we respect the decision of the jury. Tragically, two killings will never justify one.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GUTIERREZ (on-camera): On November 22, David Westerfield will be formally sentenced. Now the jury has recommended death by lethal injection, but the judge, under California law, has the option of reducing that sentence to life in prison without the possibility of parole. We talked to many legal experts out here who say that is highly unlikely.
Anderson, back to you.
COOPER: Well, Thelma, just one question. I mean, I think it was Jeffrey Toobin who said this to me a couple weeks ago, and I just want to double check it with you.
That even if the judge does finalize this verdict of death, given the backlog of death penalty cases in California and the number of people on Death Row, it's very unlikely, if not impossible, that David Westerfield would be executed by the state before he died naturally.
GUTIERREZ: That's a very good point, Anderson. The death sentence, the death penalty was reinstated in the state of California back in 1977. There were 717 people who were sentenced to death. Currently, there are 610 who are sitting on Death Row. The average length of time for people sitting on Death Row, 15 years. The shortest amount of time about nine years.
David Westerfield is already 50 years old, so you may have a point there.
COOPER: All right. Thelma Gutierrez, thanks very much.
A few stories now from around the nation tonight, beginning with a big decision in the case of a man convicted of killing three Yosemite National Park tourists back in 1999.
A jury found that Cary Stayner, shown there, was sane when he murdered the three tourists. Now, that means he could face the death penalty. The penalty phase of the trial is set to begin tomorrow. We will obviously follow that.
Regulators have started an informal look into the perks of former GE chief exec Jack Welch. Details of the lavish perks came out in divorce papers filed by his wife.
Now, Welch said today he's giving up a lot of them, but he came out swinging, as well, saying the perks were given as part of a deal to stay with GE in the '90s, and that he disclosed them years ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACK WELCH, FORMER CHAIRMAN & CEO, GENERAL ELECTRIC: I'll stay with GE and I'll sign a contract not to compete and do everything, but I'd like get in-kind benefits, which I -- a company plane and the use of facilities.
And we wrote up that contract in '96, reported every day and it was fine.
Now I'm in a world that's different.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Certainly is. And a bit more information on the resignation of "Chicago Tribune" columnist Bob Greene. The paper is now reporting that Greene had a sexual encounter with a teenager whom he met in his office while she was working on a high school project. The incident happened more than a decade ago, and the girl was of legal age.
Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, the strange story of the mob boss and the FBI agent who became his informant. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: So we have our own true crime story tonight. It's a mob story, one that's a little bit more Donnie Brasco than Tony Soprano.
It's about two men who grew up in the same South Boston housing project. One, a street fighter who then became a notorious gangster named Whitey Bulger. The other, a younger kid who made good, eventually joining the FBI, John Connolly.
It was their early connection that would bring them together and would be Connolly's undoing. Connolly was sentenced today to more than 10 years in prison for protecting his mob informants and tipping them off to upcoming indictments, including an indictment for Whitey Bulger, who tonight is nowhere to be found.
The story from Aaron Brown.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERT FITZPATRICK, FORMER FBI AGENT: I labeled him a psychopath. My background with the behavioral science unit as a profiler gave me enough background and enough education, and then of experience, to know a psychopath when I was seeing one.
AARON BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Robert Fitzpatrick is retired now, retired from the FBI in Boston. And he's talking about this man, seen only in still photographs, often behind dark glasses -- James "Whitey" Bulger. Right up there on the FBI's 10 most wanted list, and for decades an FBI informer.
FITZPATRICK: How many people would believe that Bulger was an informant? Nobody.
I mean, he's a bad guy. You can't tell me that this guy is an informant.
BROWN: But for more than 20 years, that's exactly what he was, protected, according to government prosecutors, even while he engaged in a series of horrible crimes.
JEFF DONN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, THE ASSOCIATED PRESS: And he was accused in connection with a total of 18 murders. Eleven of them occurred while he was an FBI informant, and the FBI in Boston told headquarters that he was at the -- he was the boss of his gang.
BROWN: It was the deal with the devil, the FBI now says. Protect Whitey Bulger and his key accomplices on the streets of South Boston in exchange for information on the Mafia, operating in another part of town -- a scheme that was approved all the way to Washington.
DONN: Headquarters knew that informants were suspected of murder, knew that they were believed to be leading their own gangs, that in effect these informants were as powerful and as dangerous as the people that they were supposed to be helping to catch.
BROWN: At the center of the arrangement was a young FBI agent named John Connolly. Prosecutors later said he warned Bulger of an impending investigation by other police agencies, and took money from him, as well.
And for part of that time, Robert Fitzpatrick supervised John Connolly.
FITZPATRICK: Bulger is a crafty, intelligent psychopath who unfortunately made the agent the informant, his T.E., and who unfortunately turned the tables in a way that he became the victor, if you want to call it that.
And it got away with murder.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, the public is definitely not a winner. J.M. Lawrence, who has covered the case for the "Boston Herald" says the government has spent possibly millions of dollars chasing Whitey Bulger, and uncovering all the crimes that Bulger committed, crimes that Connolly knew all about.
She joins us tonight from Boston. J.M., thanks for being with us.
J.M. LAWRENCE, REPORTER, BOSTON HERALD: Hi, Anderson.
COOPER: How important was this information that Mr. Bulger was giving to the FBI?
LAWRENCE: Well, it was extremely important in the FBI's battle against La Cosa Nostra.
COOPER: But, I mean, apparently important enough that they would protect this man who, while under their protection was committing 11 murders, according to these stories.
LAWRENCE: Well, the bureau says that he was never given permission to commit murders. And John Connolly, his defense has always claimed that he didn't know the horrible things that Bulger was doing. But federal prosecutors say that's inconceivable that these guys that he was having dinners with for a decade, that he didn't know what they were really up to.
COOPER: And, did it come out in the trial? I mean, why did he do it? Was it just that he had been childhood friends with this man? That -- or was it -- did he become a dupe? Or was he willing?
LAWRENCE: Anderson, I think in the end this is kind of a story of the old, you know, when you dance with the devil, the devil doesn't change. The devil changes you.
And in this case, you see John Connolly going from federal agent to today federal inmate, going away for a maximum 10-year sentence for switching sides and racketeering with Bulger.
COOPER: Is he going to be in some sort of protective custody? I mean, or is he in general pop? Where is he going to do time?
LAWRENCE: I'm sure that the Federal Bureau of Prisons have dealt with corrupt agents and cops in prisons before, and they'll have a special system to protect his safety.
COOPER: All right. So he's doing 10 years. Whitey Bulger, where is he tonight? Do we know?
LAWRENCE: We don't know. And a whole team of people are still looking for him, spending all their time and a lot of our tax dollars in trying to find this man who held such sway over Boston for more than 20 years.
COOPER: Have there been any sightings of him?
LAWRENCE: The last sighting, the actual confirmed sighting was five-plus years ago in Louisiana where Bulger and his moll, Catherine Greig, were hanging out in Louisiana, buying appliances for poor people.
COOPER: I don't understand. What do you mean he was -- first of all, you used the term, his "moll." Is that like a...
LAWRENCE: His moll.
COOPER: ... that's like a gangster term?
LAWRENCE: Yes, it's a gangster term. That's the woman that he disappeared with. And Bulger, his profile is, you know, he's a geriatric sort of psychopath who likes to be the center of attention. Even on the lam, he needed to have the adoration of people around him.
COOPER: He's a geriatric psychopath?
LAWRENCE: He's 73 years old.
COOPER: All right. What -- wow. I'm not even sure. This is such a bizarre case.
I mean, has -- what happens now to the FBI? I mean, in this case. They've set up this task force. What does the task force do now?
LAWRENCE: Well, this task force is still continuing its work, as we heard from a man named John Durham, who is a Connecticut federal prosecutor, who has been doing this work for three years.
He's still listening to all leads, but he's got a problem. When it comes to ferreting out more corruption, whether, you know, John Connolly had others who were helping him help Bulger, there's a statute of limitations that's involved with a lot of the acts that went on in the 1980s and protecting Bulger.
COOPER: Now, I'm no lawyer, but I would imagine that the government has opened itself up to some lawsuits from Bulger's victims. Because, I mean, if it's alleged that the government perhaps knew about some of these cases, the victims' families may have some sort of a case.
LAWRENCE: Yes, in fact there's almost $2 billion worth of lawsuits filed in U.S. district court in Boston against the government over the protection that was given to Bulger.
And we're seeing a strange -- a strange sort of house divided at this point, because here the federal prosecution has done all this work to win this conviction against John Connolly. And now you have the other arm of the Justice Department now trying to fend off these lawsuits seeking almost $2 billion in claims. COOPER: All right. If -- we got to go -- but if you could ask Bulger one question, what would you ask him?
LAWRENCE: Where are you?
COOPER: All right. J.M. Lawrence, thanks very much. Been following the case for a couple of years, "Boston Herald." We appreciate you joining us.
LAWRENCE: Sure.
COOPER: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll just stop and do some listening. But before that, we're going to do some mocking.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Let's take a look at what's coming up on "AMERICAN MORNING" with Paula Zahn -- Paula.
PAULA ZAHN, ANCHOR, "AMERICAN MORNING": Thanks, Anderson.
He used to play the Man of Steel, and in a sense he still is, at least when it comes to a will of steel. We're talking about actor Christopher Reeve.
After he was paralyzed in a horseback riding accident, he vowed to walk again. Well, now he's making some amazing progress.
And on the next "AMERICAN MORNING," we're going to meet someone who has watched it first-hand -- his son, Matthew Reeve. Please join us tomorrow at seven -- Anderson.
COOPER: All right. Thanks, Paula.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, important timesaving information from your friends here at NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: So it happens every week. A new wad of magazines spews onto newsstands. And frankly, they're all pretty much the same, but we review them anyway.
"People" magazine came out with its best and worst dressed issue. You know, sadly, I could barely get a hold of it before certain members of NEWSNIGHT's allegedly highbrow staff snatched it out of my palms, desperate to see who's on the list.
Now, I don't want to point the finger, and I don't want to use any last names, but Aaron, just give it back and I won't say another word. All right?
But the only article I did read in "People" was about one-time actress and full-time Antonio Banderas addict, Melanie Griffith.
The article describes Miss Griffith's efforts on behalf of female street children in Calcutta. Apparently Miss Griffith has only recently been informed that there are street children in Calcutta.
Concerned, she visited the city and was profoundly moved. "I wanted to give everything I owned away," she said after the trip, "except for what I need to survive."
Now, back ensconced in her 20,000-square-foot Los Angeles villa, that notion seems to have kind of faded. Miss Griffith is actually throwing a party to benefit street kids. However, the entertainment at the party -- oh, yes. It's going to be 15 authentic street children flown in from Calcutta.
I mean, can you stand it? That is so chic. Really, what could be better for an Indian street urchin than to be flown to L.A., housed in a mansion, stuffed with hors d'oeuvres, have your photo taken with a celebrity. The day -- and after a couple of days, get sent right back to India's slums.
Talk about the party being over. But, hey, you never know. If the kids play their cards right, maybe they'll make "People's" best- dressed list next year. You never know.
"US Weekly" breathlessly reports that Calista Flockhart and Harrison Ford are going strong after -- can you believe it? -- eight and a half months! Now to be fair, in Hollywood, relationships are measured in dog years.
So, eight and a half months is actually a long time in Hollywood. "US Weekly" promises to talk about the relationship with an expert. But the expert turns out to be a body language expert. And I'm not kidding.
I'm sorry, but did any school actually offer a degree in body language? I mean, besides the New School? This expert analyzes photos of Ford and Flockhart and comes up with such insights as, lifting her skirt shows Calista is sexually open to him. After eight and a half months, I should hope so.
Finally, Rosie's magazine -- which I never read it before, but now that she's not on the cover, I find it a little less scary. So I gave it a try this week.
Unfortunately, the tone of the magazine is still the old Rosie. You know, the supposedly sweet TV Rosie. I was kind of hoping it would be more like the new Rosie, the ballsy, butchy, biker standup Rosie. Now, that would be a magazine.
Celine Dion graces this month's cover. Does she actually have anything to say that you have not heard a million times before? Her baby is great. Rene is great. She is Canadian -- blah, blah, blah.
The headline -- very insightful -- Celine Dion doesn't just sing about love. She feels it down to her soul.
Wasn't Celine Dion supposed to retire? Whatever happened to that? I'm telling you, she milked that for months, on Larry and Rosie and Regis. I think she talked about retiring longer than she actually retired.
Finally, did you see the entertainment weekly, "Shaw Report"? I must admit, I read it with glee, that wanting to marry Aaron Brown is very five minutes ago. I mean, really, you didn't have to tell me that.
But I was a little concerned that lusting after Bill Hemmer is in right now. Anyway, I shouldn't worry. My agent says I'm so five minutes from now, I probably just need to wait a little bit longer.
But, actually, come to think of it, my agent is Aaron's agent. That's not a good thing.
Well, still ahead on NEWSNIGHT, some people who just want to talk.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: So finally from us, there was an article over the weekend about Jerry Seinfeld trying to come up with new material by kind of hanging around New York's Upper West Side. I'm sorry. Is this new? Isn't that what Jerry Seinfeld has talked about for his entire career? In fact, didn't he have some kind of a sitcom about the Upper West Side?
Well, hopefully Seinfeld is watching us now, because this next story might just give him a fresh approach to his comedy. It's about what two young people are doing, moving all around New York and just kind of sitting down for a good chat with anyone who happens to come by.
Serena Altschul was one of them.
(BEGIN PACKAGE)
SERENA ALTSCHUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hustle of New York City, where few people have time to talk, but two people are trying to change that. Liz from North Carolina and Bill from New Jersey sit on New York sidewalks all day long with this sign. Why? They just want to talk to people.
BILL: We're not giving a sales pitch. We're not religious fanatics. We're not tarot card readers. We're just having conversation.
ALTSCHUL: People may be shy at first.
LIZ: Feel free.
ALTSCHUL: But it doesn't take long for them to open up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel bad inside, you know, what -- because it's like, they should treat everybody the same. Everybody's a human being.
BILL: Have you ever brought it up with anyone? Or just talked to anyone about it? If there's anything you can do?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no.
ALTSCHUL: And Danny's (ph) break was over. Time to go back to work.
That's amazing. People really come and talk to you guys about their stuff.
BILL: It's not as if everyone comes up and just opens up like that, but all we're doing is offering the opportunity. People take it for what it's worth, and we'll go with them whether it's about Mets scores or job crisis or anything that's on their minds.
LIZ: Right.
ALTSCHUL: Talk may be cheap, but with Bill and Liz it's free. They don't expect any money. They don't pay rent, and they sleep anywhere they can.
How many days do you think you've been out? Or months, rather?
LIZ: I've been out six weeks and two days.
ALTSCHUL: And you've been out...
BILL: Just over three months.
ALTSCHUL: And this madness is going to stop at some point? Or...
LIZ: Well, we're doing this on $7 a day. That money's coming from jobs that we worked previously. And on that budget, it looks like we should be able to go through October, maybe November.
ALTSCHUL: Not everyone stops to talk. But most are at least curious.
Do you know what they're talking about?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. But I want to know.
ALTSCHUL: Yes?
They just want to talk to people, it seems like. They just like talking.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just talk?
ALTSCHUL: Just talking.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Weird.
ALTSCHUL: They may be weird, but these are people who talk about all sorts of things, from insecurities...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just want to act like me, but I have to act how they want me to act.
ALTSCHUL: ... to poetry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Keep it real. That's a good start. Don't use or abuse drugs.
ALTSCHUL: Even dental accessories.
What's on your gold tooth?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gold caps.
ALTSCHUL: What do you think? Do you think it's ridiculous? Or do you think they're actually doing something for people?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Apparently it attracts people, so it works.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just think it's really nice that these guys are promoting civilized activities in the world.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love it. I love it.
ALTSCHUL: People don't talk enough, maybe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. We don't talk to each other. But when we do, we don't say what we think.
ALTSCHUL: As the day went on, people talked, ...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I think it's nice to come in and...
ALTSCHUL: ... and talked.
UNIDENTIFIED BOY: Having homework...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep the talk. Keep the talk.
ALTSCHUL: At the end of 12 hours, because we've been watching you over the last half day, are you any wiser, or smarter?
LIZ: I've learned a lot more about this neighborhood. I've gained a few more insights into the way this crazy world works, for some more people.
BILL: If nothing else, dozens more people met dozens more people they would have never met otherwise. Not even as a result of us, but as a result of this silly piece of thick cardboard.
ALTSCHUL: It is past midnight, and Bill and Liz got access to a nearby rooftop.
Does the doorman know?
BILL: No.
Hotel a la top. ALTSCHUL: And so tomorrow what, you know, what's your plan for the morning and, what, tomorrow, just do it again?
BILL: Same deal, yes. Just go 30, 40 blocks in a different direction. Wait till 11 or noon. Set up the sign. Do it again. See what happens.
ALTSCHUL: Serena Altschul, CNN, New York.
(END PACKAGE)
COOPER: Wonder where they are tonight? Only in New York.
That is NEWSNIGHT for tonight. Thanks for watching. Be sure to sign up for our daily NEWSNIGHT e-mail. You can just go to cnn.com/newsnight and enter your e-mail address. We send it to you every day, tell you what's going to be on the program.
I'm Anderson Cooper. Aaron Brown returns tomorrow night. I'll see you again soon.
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