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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Congress Debates Use of Force in Iraq; Bond Hearings Held for Alleged Buffalo Terrorists; Bombing Leads to Israeli Military Action

Aired September 19, 2002 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, again, everyone. It was a party we heard about that must have been an absolute blast. It costs more than $2 million. There were waiters in togas, people posing as gladiators standing at the door, rented fig trees, unlimited caviar, and an ice sculpture of Michelangelo's David with vodka coming out of -- well, picture the David and you get the idea.
Imagine paying the bill for a party like that. And the really cruel thing is that some of you actually did. It was a party thrown by Tyco International, one of those companies that may well have been in a mutual fund that you own. It makes you a stockholder, and stockholders pay. They own the company, even if they don't get invited to the parties.

The party was thrown by the former Tyco chief Dennis Kozlowski, who today faced a bail hearing after being brought up on fraud charges.

This is a man who lived large, as they say. The government also says he lived with company money, stockholders' money, maybe your money. Money you thought might be better spent on, oh, let's say medicine when you get older. That money.

Compare that to Warren Buffet. Mr. Buffet, the legendary investor, among the richest men in the world, a man who still drives an old car, last time I checked, and carries his lunch to work in a brown paper sack.

Which one would you rather have handling your money?

Free marketers bristle at any thoughts of somehow reining in the outsized salaries and fairy tale perks, that this will set off some great exodus of top talent out of the boardroom. Somehow, we doubt it.

We think most of these people making $200 million a year, or $100 million, because these are tough times, would gladly do the job for $75 million, maybe even $50 million. Some might stoop so low as $25 million.

Stockholders, of course, would see the benefits of this. Though, in fairness, it would mean the CEO's would have to drink their vodka out of a glass.

With that out of my system, we go to the news of the day. We begin with Iraq and pressure from the White House on the Congress and the United Nations. Senior White House correspondent John King on duty tonight. John, headline, please.

JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Tough questions from Congress tonight, Aaron. Some Democrats wondering if the president wants too much power to go to war with Iraq.

Still, it is clear tonight the president will get most of what he wants from Capitol Hill. By this time tomorrow, we'll have a better sense of whether he'll be so lucky at the United Nations.

BROWN: John, thank you. Back to you at the top of the program.

On to Buffalo now, and another day of bail hearings for the men accused of supporting terrorism. Susan Candiotti is on that again for us tonight.

Susan, headline.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron. The defense came on strong this day. And scoffed at the notion of a Buffalo terrorist cell operating right here in western New York. They even offered an explanation for that intriguing e-mail we told you about last night.

BROWN: Susan, thank you.

To the Middle East next; another round of violence there, violence like we haven't seen in more than a month. Mike Hanna is back with us tonight.

So Mike, a head line from you, please.

MIKE HANNA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Aaron. Dramatic escalation in the level of conflict. Two suicide bombings in Israel within 24 hours, and Israeli forces once again lay siege to Yasser Arafat and his compound.

BROWN: Mike, thank you. Back to you, all of you, in just a moment.

Also coming up on the program tonight, more on the Middle East. We'll be joined by the Israeli ambassador to the United States, Daniel Ayalon.

And Anna Quindlen tonight on getting past the 9/11 anniversary, and a whole lot of other topics. We're glad she'll be with us.

Ken Auletta on a story that couldn't hit much closer to our home: what in the world is going on with AOL Time-Warner? All of that in the hour ahead.

We begin with the administration's effort to win congressional support for action against Iraq. For the first time today, the president formally laid out what he wants from Congress. The proposed resolution, he said, amounts to authorizing him to make war, should he decide to. Not a declaration of war, this is something no president since Franklin Roosevelt has sought for the Congress, but permission to wage war.

So lawmakers now have in front of them a piece of paper to consider, to change, to amend, all which the administration would like to happen as quickly as possible.

Again, our senior White House correspondent, John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): The subject, Iraq; the purpose, make sure there is zero ambiguity.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And if the United Nations Security Council won't deal with the problem, the United States and some of our friends will.

KING: To reinforce the point, the White House asked Congress to give the president a broad mandate to use military force against Iraq. A draft administration resolution calls for regime change in Baghdad and urges Congress to authorize the president " to use all means he determines to be appropriate, including force," to achieve three objectives:

Forcing Iraqi compliance with United Nations resolutions, defending the national security interests of the United States, and restoring peace and security in the Middle East region.

BUSH: You want to keep the peace, you've got to have the authorization to use force.

KING: The exact language is subject to negotiation, and some in Congress believe the White House draft gives Mr. Bush too much latitude.

SEN. RICHARD DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: We've spoken a lot about Iraq, but this proposal coming from the White House makes some vague reference to the region. Does that mean the entire Middle East or what? I mean, these are important questions that need to be asked and answered.

KING: But lawmakers who met with the president Thursday predict he will get most of what he wants.

REP. NORMAN DICKS, (D) WASHINGTON: It is becoming more and more obvious that Saddam Hussein not only possesses but has the intent to use weapons of mass destruction against U.S. interests abroad and possibly the United States.

KING: Claims by Iraq's foreign minister that his country has no weapons of mass destruction and has cooperated with the United Nations were met with scorn.

BUSH: It's the same old song and dance that we've heard for 11 long years. And the United Nations Security Council must show backbone, must step up and hold this regime to account.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: That tough talk directed at, among other nations, Russia. Will it work? The foreign minister and the defense minister from Russia will be here to see the president in the morning. We're also told Mr. Bush will pick up the phone and call the Russian President Vladmir Putin.

So Aaron, by this time tomorrow night, we should have a much better sense of whether the president can turn the tide and convince Russia, and then it will be France and China to lobby next to consider a new, tough resolution in the Security Council.

BROWN: Well, I see the stick; the tough talk is the stick. Is there any carrot out there that the president could offer?

KING: Depends on the country you're talking about. Overall, his carrot is the credibility of United Nations. When it comes to Russia, we are told one of the messages the president gives to Russia is, you do have a relationship with Iraq. You do want to get back in and have an economic relationship that would include oil. The president's message is a post Saddam Hussein Iraq would be a much more lucrative market than a continuation of the current stand-off with Saddam Hussein.

BROWN: And the Iraqis, as my memory goes, owe the Russians a good deal of money?

KING: A good deal of money, dating back to the Soviet Union. President Putin has made clear, he wants that money. That's why Russia over the past several years has urged sanctions to be lifted or at least eased. Mr. Bush case is, if you have a regime change, you'll get that money a whole lot sooner.

BROWN: John, thank you. Senior Whit House correspondent John King, again with us tonight.

To Buffalo now. And another day of bail hearings for the six Yemeni-Americans accused of training with Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.

The government is making the case this adds up to material support for terrorists. A crime. There may be more to the government's case. We clearly have not heard it all yet, but that's the best evidence put out there so far.

But, did the men go willingly? Did they actually train when they got there? That was the focus of the defense today.

Here again, CNN's Susan Candiotti.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI (voice-over): Defense attorneys raised pointed questions about the government's evidence, including an explanation for an e-mail sent last July by suspect Mukhtar al-Bakri to someone in western New York.

The e-mail read in part: "The next meal will be very huge. No one will be able to withstand it except for those with faith."

The government said it referred to a threat using explosives against Americans. Al-Bakri's lawyer said his client was only passing something he heard from on old man and a cab driver.

JOHN MALLOY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The old man indicated that he had heard that there was going to be some sort of action, most likely involving Americans. The van driver said basically, yeah, I heard the same thing. And not only that, people have had visions about this.

CANDIOTTI: Al-Bakri's lawyer says his client admits going to a camp but insists he wanted out once he got there.

An attorney for Sahim Alwan told the court his client had no idea he was going for Al Qaeda training, and once there he tried at least twice to leave. In a statement to the FBI, Sahim Alwan said, "I cried, I could not sleep. I even faked an ankle injury."

His lawyer says Alwan voluntary met with the FBI when he got back from the camp. But according to his client, Alwan was too scared to admit he and others were there.

JAMES HARRINGTON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: When I say terrified, they were terrified that there might be repercussions to them, at least to him, for having gone to Afghanistan and gone to this camp. And after September the 11th happened, those fears increased dramatically. He was between a rock and a hard place in terms of what he felt he could do.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI: The lawyers said their clients were all young and impressionable when they wound up at those camps. Although not every lawyer conceded that their clients were there. There will be more discussion tomorrow.

And frankly, Aaron, we're not quite sure when the judge will make up his mind about whether to grant bond. Back to you.

BROWN: And just a couple of perhaps small points. The government is opposing any bail for all of the men, they're treating them all of them the same?

CANDIOTTI: That's true. Unless down the road they decide to concede some points, at this time, the government maintains that all are too dangerous to be let out on bond, and have a risk of flight, a risk of running away.

BROWN: And has the government put out a reason why they believe they're a flight risk, other than they're facing fairly serious charges, certainly not the most serious charges that people face out there? CANDIOTTI: In the case of most or not all of them, it's because the government argues they have relatives overseas. And clearly because they have the means to travel overseas, because they went over there ostensibly for religious training and some allegedly wound up in these training camps, that that is the reason why they fear they could leave again.

BROWN: Susan, thank you. It's fascinating to watch this unfold. There just haven't been cases like this. Thank you. Susan Candiotti in Buffalo, New York.

Israel now. The tanks surrounding Yasser Arafat's compound tonight after a suicide bombing earlier today in Israel. Second such attack in two days, and cold water on the hopes of many Israelis, who were beginning to act as if life was returning to normal.

Normal is, of course, quite different on the Palestinian side. Israeli troops still control much of the West Bank, and curfews continue to make life less than pleasant for them. So we are back in an all too familiar pattern.

Here again, CNN's Mike Hanna.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HANNA (voice-over): A suicide bombing in the middle of Tel Aviv, the massive blast coming shortly after 1:00, at a time when Allenby Street was at its most crowded.

Five declared dead on the scene, more than 60 people wounded. And the horror, fixed in the minds of those who were the first to respond.

TIRAN SLOMON, EYEWITNESS: I saw their bodies and now I feel like half a man, like my legs, they cannot move. And my hands. Terrible. Absolutely terrible.

HANNA: This attack, along with the suicide bombing in northern Israel Wednesday, ended a period of more than five weeks in which there were no successful operations against Israeli civilians in Israel.

Faint hopes that had risen in the past five weeks that the attacks were drawing to close, now blown away. The realization among Israelis that they may be once again the targets of a renewed terror offensive.

This despite widespread Israeli military operations in Palestinian territory, during which dozens of Palestinians were arrested and as many as 70 Palestinians killed.

Within hours of the Tel Aviv attack, Israeli forces on the move in the West Bank city of Ramallah. Tanks and armored personnel carriers again entering the compound of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, the compound still bearing the scars of a similar Israeli operation earlier this year. (END VIDEOTAPE)

HANNA: The word from the Israeli government that it has once again decided to physically isolate Yasser Arafat and is also demanding that some 20 people in the compound with the Palestinian leader, whom Israel describes as wanted terrorists, be handed over -- Aaron.

BROWN: And they got some of those men tonight, did they not?

HANNA: Well, there's confusion and dispute over whether or not they got some of the men. Eyewitnesses did see as many as eight Palestinians walking out of the compound with their hand up. That Israeli ambassador has said that they were, in fact, some of those wanted people.

However, a source within the compound itself says the people who walked out were in fact being held by the Palestinians, accused of being collaborators in the cells, in the compound, saying there weren't any of those on Israel's wanted list. So dispute about that, Aaron.

BROWN: So that will take some more reporting and more time. And we'll let you do that. Just one other thing, because we haven't had a chance to talk about this much over the last couple of weeks.

Through this all, there actually have been some significant developments on the Palestinian side, and a weakening of the Arafat government.

HANNA: Very much so, Aaron. Recent weeks there's been a big debate in Palestinian society and within Yasser Arafat's own political movement, Fatah, about whether there should be attacks against Israeli civilians. The overwhelming belief, it would appear, was that there should not. That is against the interests of the Palestinian people. There was document going out to this effect, distributed widely through the Fatah movement. So that was out there.

Also our there was a rejection by the Palestinian legislative council of Yasser Arafat's cabinet. The cabinet was forced into resigning. A new cabinet now has been nominated by Yasser Arafat, which the Palestinian council may or may not accept.

So there have been in recent week two things happening: one, a rejection of violence as a political strategy among Fatah followers. And secondly, a rejection of those political leaders appointed by Yasser Arafat. And by association, the Palestinian leader himself.

BROWN: Mike, thank you. Mike Hanna in Jerusalem for us this evening. Another day in the Middle East.

And ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll talk to Israel's ambassador to the United States, talk about the day, Israeli reaction and more. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (AUDIO/VIDEO GAP)

DANIEL AYALON, ISRAELI AMBASSADOR TO THE US: ... was misleading, because this quiet period was not because of lack of attempts with Palestinian terrorists, but because of effective interception on our part. Unfortunately, the Palestinian leadership is still inspiring, financing, encouraging and committing terror.

Statistics, unfortunately, works against us. Currently, they find the holes to do it. Like they did today, like they did yesterday. But we are not deterred. We have to defend ourselves. And the only way to do it is by keep pressing on the terrorists and those who harbor them. And they see it right now in Ramallah with Arafat.

BROWN: As you look at the last couple of weeks, at least from here, and you may see it otherwise, we've seen what we would describe as encouraging signs coming out of the Palestinian side.

There seems to be some genuine frustration with Palestinian leadership, for one thing. A cabinet forced to resign.

Doesn't this in some respects, simply play into the hands of the hardest of the hard-liners on that side and against those who really want reform?

AYALON: No, Aaron, I don't think so. True, there is a growing realization among growing circles in the Palestinian society that this leadership did serve them wrong, betrayed their national interests and their national dreams. It is true.

But it takes a combination of measures: political and military. And it was a momentous speech of President Bush, 24th of June this year, that made it clear that terror will not pay.

And before we make any progress, terror should end, reforms must be made, so new leadership could take place, a leadership that is trustworthy, that is committed to peace and that is serious an effective.

BROWN: Respectfully, I want to try the question again, because I'm not sure, I'm not sure I heard the answer. All I'm saying here is that given that there is some, some momentum on the Palestinian side to do precisely what the Israeli government has been asking: change the leadership, reform Palestinian authority, doesn't a move like went on today, play into the hands of those that are least friendly to the state of Israel by hardening the positions on that side?

AYALON: No, because it shows a commitment not to be deterred by terror. And in fact, what this move that we made today, already yielded results.

You know, in Arafat's headquarters he harbors and shelters 19 murderers with blood on their hands. Nineteen murderers who were getting orders and financing terror. Now since we made this move a few hours ago, eight already turned themselves in. And we demand the rest of them to do the same.

It is very important, of course, to keep encouraging the cause for democratic reforms in the Palestinians. With transparency of finances, with new leadership, with separations of power.

But at the same time, we have also have to make sure that the terror doesn't reign, that Israelis are not killed brutally like they did today.

BROWN: We literally have about 20 seconds left. How long do you expect the military to be in Ramallah?

AYALON: Well, I can't really say, given a time frame. We demand the handing over of the rest of those terrorists that stay there, and the sooner we have them, and the sooner we break this infrastructure of terror, the better.

BROWN: Ambassador, it's good to meet you. Thanks for coming in today.

AYALON: Thank you very much.

BROWN: Israeli ambassador to the United States.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, there's no war with Iraq, yet, but there is a war of words underway already. We'll hear some of the words from both sides as NEWSNIGHT continues from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We talked about Iraq at the top of the program tonight . We told you we'd take a bit more time to look at some of today's developments in a bit more detail.

It is very possible, some even believe likely, that the fight between Iraq and the United States will, at some point, be fought with bombs and missiles, maybe bullets which would make it a very nasty war, indeed.

But for now, at least, words are the weapons of choice, the battles being fought in New York before the U.N. General Assembly and in Washington in front of the U.S. Congress. Both bodies may have something to say, as well, before any of the actual shooting starts.

But today, at least, the Iraqi foreign minister used the U.N. as his target, and the secretary of state aimed his words at the Congress.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NAJI SABRI, IRAQI FOREIGN MINISTER: In response to several appeals made by the inspector general, peace loving state and regional organizations, my government decided to allow the return of U.N. weapons inspectors without conditions. As this presents to us a comprehensive solution that includes the lifting of the sanctions imposed on Iraq and the timely implementation of other provisions of relevance, Security Council resolutions and including Resolution 671991.

I hereby declare in front of you, that Iraq is totally clear of all nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. If there are anyone amongst you who might still worry that the fabrications announced by American officials about Iraq might possibly be true, our country is ready to receive any scientific experts accompanied by politicians. You choose to represent any one of your countries to tell us which place and scientific and industrial installations they would wish to see, particularly those about which the American officials been fabricating false studies, alleging that they contain prohibited material productivity.

Our assets and oil revenues have been frozen. And we are unable to use them, except through a U.N.-run inefficient system already proven to be unfeasible. Substantial amounts of our revenues have been illegitimately seized in manner tantamount to looting. Contrary to the principles enshrined in the United Nations charter.

Therefore, we call for a discussion of the issue of inspection teams in accordance with international law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Iraqi foreign minister said the Iraq would let inspectors in, quote, "without conditions." And this morning in a speech at the United Nations, he challenged President Bush's September 12 speech. He even called for a discussion of the issue of inspection change, in accordance, quote, "with international law," he says.

He is already walking back. He is already stepping away from the "without conditions" statement that they made on Monday. But he is not deceiving anybody. It is a ploy we have seen before. We have seen it on many occasions and on each occasion, once inspectors began to operate, Iraq continued to do everything to frustrate their work.

The United States has made it clear to our Security Council colleagues that we will not fall for this ploy. This is the time, not to welcome what they said and become giddy, as some have done. This is the time to apply even more pressure.

We must not relent. We must not believe that inspectors going in under the same conditions that caused their withdrawal four years ago, is in any way acceptable or will bring us to a solution to this problem.

We can have debates and discussions and disagreements about the size and nature of the Iraqi stockpile of weapons of mass destruction, and we can discuss whether they are or not violating the range constraints on the missiles that they have.

But no one can doubt the record of Iraqi violations of United Nations Security Council resolutions. That is not debatable. It's a fact. It's a stated fact. And no one can doubt Iraq's intention to continue to try to get these weapons of mass destruction, unless they are stopped. And that is also not debatable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: The war of words on Iraq today still to come on NEWSNIGHT. A trip back in time with the first President Bush -- he reminisces about his extraordinary experiences in World War II. It's coming up at the end of the program.

Up next, we'll talk with journalist, Ken Auletta, about the troubled times from the guy that brought you, "You've got mail."

This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: About five years ago, a veteran producer in the news business said this to one of our young staffers: "Just wait," he said, "Soon enough, we'll all be working for an Internet company."

Well, he was right in the literal sense, but not in the spirit in which he said it back then. The Internet in those days seemed all- conquering. New media was going to trump the old ink-stained types, and we were all going to go forth in some grand, digitized future. It, of course, reached the pinnacle with the merger of AOL and Time Warner, and we know what's happened since -- a corporate mess, the stock price that sunk like a stone.

There was a board meeting today, and a lot of speculation that investors would try and push Chairman Steve Case out. They didn't.

Earlier this evening, I spoke with Ken Auletta, who has written a lot about the company for the "New Yorker" magazine. And on the subject of the media, he is one of the savviest people we know.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (on camera): First off, how did Steve Case go from the smartest guy on the block to something less than the smartest guy on the block? What happened there?

KEN AULETTA, "NEW YORKER" MAGAZINE: Well, if you take the long view, I mean, if you went back to the early '90s, he was the dumbest guy on the block.

BROWN: Yes.

AULETTA: His company was going to go out of business. It was going to be sold to Microsoft, and he fought that off. He looked like he was secure, and then in '95, '96, they had this crisis of service. It looked like he was the dumbest guy in the world, and then he was the smartest guy in the world, and he was. He bought Time Warner without his own money. It was a very clever move. And now, he looks like the dumbest guy in the world. Or maybe the real answer is that time Warner looks like the dumbest guy in the world. But they...

BROWN: Because they got snookered? AULETTA: They got snookered.

BROWN: These smart guys that were running the parent company of this network overpaid.

AULETTA: Oh, overpaid and ceded control for a time.

BROWN: Yes.

AULETTA: I mean, AOL was the acquirer...

BROWN: Right.

AULETTA: ... of Time Warner -- Time Warner, this company, with all these great assets. So, you know, if you're Ted Turner you're sitting there and you're some of the other board members, you're very dispirited, because you see your stock price going down. And that puts the pressure on Steve Case, but it's also a way of saying, we need a scapegoat here.

BROWN: Yes.

AULETTA: And it's a way of not looking at what your own responsibilities are.

BROWN: Now, do you think he survives?

AULETTA: Well, he survived today.

BROWN: I know that.

AULETTA: There was board meeting, and nothing happened, as was likely nothing would happen. He had three votes to block it at least...

BROWN: Yes.

AULETTA: ... and probably more. I think what happens next is largely out of Steve Case's control. It relates to three questions: What happens to the stock price, which he doesn't control? What happens to AOL's performance, which he has a little more control over? And lastly, which he has no control over, what does the SEC do? What does the investigation show? Does it show that Steve Case in some way is culpable for false reporting, for some of the inflated figures that AOL is supposedly guilty of?

BROWN: It seems to me that two or three of the best business- side stories these days are centered around media companies, whether Michael Eisner survives Disney. Why is it that media companies have become -- I mean, you must feel like it's Christmas every day of the year now. Why is it that these media conglomerates have become such important markers in the news business?

AULETTA: Well, first after all, they are very visible companies. They're in our living rooms or at our computer in our offices. And these companies made a decision in the way of peoplization (ph) of communications, that it's important to put a personality next to that name as a way of building your brand. So, Steve Case became a public personality and Michael Eisner became a public personality and so on down the line.

And obviously, as well, they play an important role. These are powerful companies and it's understood that the movies that they make and the television shows they make and the CNN shows that they are responsible for and the newspapers they produce have a great impact on our thinking and the information we use in our democracy.

So, these are much more vivid figures to us than most anyone in business, with some exceptions: Jack Welch, particularly in recent weeks.

BROWN: But they become sort of the steel barons of this time, it seems to me -- that they are the people, people talk about.

AULETTA: Well, I think we have talked about business people...

BROWN: Yes.

AULETTA: ... and not just them, for a long period of time, and part of it is our own infatuation with the stock market, which now 50 percent of all Americans invest in. That was unheard of 12 years ago.

BROWN: Yes.

AULETTA: And so, therefore, we had a kind of rooting (ph) interest in the performance of many of these companies. And now that these companies go bust and the stock market plummets, we have a kind of rooting (ph) interest, too, because we're sitting there and we're saying, my god, what happens to my 401(k)?

BROWN: Just 20 seconds left. Do you see a time when these -- these big media companies have tried this synergy, this integration. Do you see a time when they will divest, become smaller companies?

AULETTA: Well, I think that's happening now. I think there's a real argument that all of this hype about synergy -- and AOL Time Warner was as guilty as anyone of that -- has really created this notion that maybe these companies are too big.

BROWN: Yes.

AULETTA: Maybe you get so big, so cumbersome you cannot perform, and maybe small is better. So, I think you will see some divestitures.

BROWN: We'd love to continue this more. Will you come back and see us?

AULETTA: Oh, anytime.

BROWN: It's always good to see you. Ken Auletta, thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: And did we mention AOL Time Warner is the parent company of CNN? But you knew that, didn't you?

Later on NEWSNIGHT, a trip down memory lane with the first President Bush. Up next, we talk with author and columnist, Anna Quindlen. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: There was an interesting note in our guest file -- the one line that is supposed to give you an instant idea of what we'll be talking about with a certain person. For Anna Quindlen, it said this: "We can talk to her about her new novel and just about anything."

This would seem, at first glance, to be the kiss of death in terms of interviews -- the all-purpose guest, who can comment on anything and give insight into nothing. Anna Quindlen is not your all-purpose guest. We spoke with her this afternoon about her new novel called, "Blessing," and more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (on camera): First of all, nice to have you with us. And secondly, you have 30 seconds to tell me about the book.

ANNA QUINDLEN, AUTHOR, "BLESSING": It's a story of a baby left in a box on the doorstep of a big house in the middle of nowhere, and how that baby changes everything, in that way that babies always do.

BROWN: It changes -- that child changes all sorts of lives of all sorts of interesting characters who pop up in this mansion or this estate called "Blessings."

QUINDLEN: Right.

BROWN: Where did the idea come from? Had it been swirling around?

QUINDLEN: The idea of writing a novel about redemption had been with me for a long time -- about people finally getting it right at the last minute, after having it been wrong for some reason. And little by little, I came up with the idea of this older woman, Lydia Blessing, who is 80, and having made a lot of wrong turns in her life. She shut herself off really from living, and having this opportunity to suddenly open herself to all the joy there is out there.

BROWN: Do you think about who will like this book while you're writing the book?

QUINDLEN: No.

BROWN: Do you think about it afterwards?

QUINDLEN: No.

BROWN: Do you just kind of go through life assuming everyone will like the book if they grab it?

QUINDLEN: No, actually the worst case is I assume no one will like the book.

BROWN: Really?

QUINDLEN: When I have finished a book, when I finish the final draft, I take about a week and I read it aloud, which is how long it takes me to do it. Because I write by ear, and if I read aloud, I can hear all of the clunks in it, the places where the meter of the sentence doesn't quite scan.

And then at the end of reading the whole thing aloud, I sit down and I have to make a deal with myself. And the deal is, I like this. This is good work. I can send it out into the world. And I use that deal with myself to ward off the stresses of reviews, the stresses of marketing, the worries about, you know, how the book is going to do. But also, because the audience potentially is too big, the deal has to be with yourself -- yes, this is good.

BROWN: Has that changed over time? You've written successful novels, successful nonfiction, you're a much celebrated columnist. Are you -- has the process of -- has the fear factor changed at all over time?

QUINDLEN: Not much. I think what builds confidence is the understanding that you don't know what plays. I mean, it became commonplace for me when I was a columnist to write a column where I'd think, OK, I'm the only person in the world who feels this way. This one is just going to sink like a stone and get hundreds of letters from people saying, oh, thank you for saying that.

And conversely that you'd write one where you think, ah, this is a biggie, you know, I'm feeling good today. Nothing. So that you're not entirely sure what the heart of readers is yearning for until it gets out there.

BROWN: Do you ever go back and read your own books?

QUINDLEN: Never. Never, because when I do, all I see are the mistakes, I never see the good stuff.

BROWN: Can we talk about a couple of other things?

QUINDLEN: Sure.

BROWN: How did you explain 9/11 to your youngest child, who was probably 12 at the time?

QUINDLEN: I don't remember really explaining it to her in precisely that way, because given the fact that we live in Manhattan, so much of the first two days was logistics -- getting her home from school, trying to be in touch with her brother who was away at college, trying to figure out where her father was going to spend the night because he was on the other side of the river -- things like that. As the year has progressed and we've watched a lot of television coverage, we've talked with some frequency about how there's the capacity in human beings to do really, really bad things.

Luckily, a huge part of the story of 9/11 is the capacity of human beings to do really, really good things, and that's helped all of us as parents I think to explain what really happened here.

BROWN: You wrote a column about year ago, last October, in which you played with this idea a bit that out of this terrible tragedy, good has come. You were writing about the news business at the time, but you certainly could have been writing about a lot of other things. And you wondered at the end, will it last? So a year later?

QUINDLEN: I think it's lasted. I think a lot of it has lasted. I think people are just conscious. They're conscious of their own vulnerability, and being conscious of their vulnerability I think makes them more open to really an authentic living of their lives.

I sense individuals as much more in the moment now, than they were a year ago. And I think it's also helped to -- not to get rid of, but to lessen the hold of the celebrity culture a little bit. I mean, you know, when people cheered firefighters, you know that there's been a sea change in America.

BROWN: The book is called "Blessings." We wish you nothing but great success in this and everything else. You're a wonderful writer.

QUINDLEN: Thank you, Aaron.

BROWN: Thank you.

QUINDLEN: I'm happy to come back anytime.

BROWN: We'll take you up on it.

QUINDLEN: OK.

BROWN: Thank you again, Anna Quindlen.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT, a trip back in time to World War II and a man who would later become president and the father of another president. George Bush remembers as NEWSNIGHT continues from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Finally from us tonight, a president remembers. As the first chapters of George W. Bush's war story are being written, George H.W. Bush is finally laying out the key chapters of his, and his, of course, are quite different.

He wasn't the commander-of-chief. He was the lieutenant JG who could fly. He wasn't protected by scores of security agents. His protection in the end came from God or fate -- whatever you believe. His son is of a generation that may prove itself to be great some day. The father is of a generation that already has.

"War and Remembrance" tonight from a former president, who is lucky to have survived, is reported by Paula Zahn.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): On a spectacular sunny day in June, former President George Bush is trying to close a chapter on his life off the remote Japanese island of Chichijima.

GEORGE H.W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This way is America -- back there.

ZAHN: He has waited nearly 60 years to return to this spot, where he almost lost his life.

BUSH: I knew I had to get out of there. I had to stay away from the land, and I swam.

ZAHN: In these waters on September 2, 1944, Navy pilot George Bush was bobbing in a rubber raft, similar to this one, after his plane was shot down by Japanese soldiers dug in on the island.

BUSH: I was crying, I've got to confess. And I was scared. I was 20 years old.

ZAHN: Bush had been on a bombing raid, targeting a Japanese radio installation on Chichijima, when his plane was hit. He parachuted into the water and lost all contact with his two crew members.

BUSH: And I thought about my family, and you think about survival. You think, how am I going to make it?

ZAHN (on camera): Did you think you were going to die?

BUSH: I'm not sure I did. I was scared about it. I don't remember now thinking I've had it, there's nothing I can do, I'm going to die.

ZAHN (voice-over): One thing he knew, he couldn't drift ashore into enemy hands.

BUSH: But we were all shown pictures of an officer kneeling, and the guy with the big sword over his head about to kill him. And we were shown that as indoctrination photos when we were going out to the Pacific to make clear to us that being captured would be no picnic.

ZAHN: Then, after nearly three hours of paddling, drifting and praying, a remarkable vision.

BUSH: And suddenly you see a periscope, then you see a conning tower, and then you see a submarine. And the only thought I had was, well, God, I hope it's one of ours. And sure enough, it was the USS Finback. And they pulled me aboard, and I walked up dazed kind of -- I mean, still scared, I guess.

ZAHN: Incredibly, Bush's rescue was captured on film by a Navy photographer.

On board the Finback, he would learn his two crewmembers, Ted White and Jack Delaney, were lost. Eyewitnesses had seen one other parachute, but neither body was found.

BUSH: God, we were close to that island.

ZAHN: Today, as Bush visits the spot where he was rescued, there is no escaping the memory of the two who were lost.

BUSH: I think a lot of about them, and I think about them and I'm wondering, well, is there something I might have done differently? Is there some way that I might have saved their lives?

That's for Ted White and for Delaney -- Delaney. There we go. That's beautiful.

ZAHN (on camera): How did September 2, 1944 define your life?

BUSH: It taught me that when you face adversity, do what mother said, "Do your best, George, try your hardest." I look at all of this as having made me a better man. A little kid made into a man by a series of circumstances over which he had no control.

ZAHN (voice-over): And, Bush says, his rescue deepened his sense of commitment to country. After a month on board the sub, he returned to Pearl Harbor, where he was told he could go home.

BUSH: I said no, I want to go back and finish our tour. Hitchhiked back out to the fleet and flew some more missions over the Philippines.

ZAHN: After the war, Bush was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for his bravery on the bombing mission at Chichijima.

(on camera): You are a decorated war hero. Why don't you view yourself that way?

BUSH: I was doing what everybody else was doing. How come a guy who gets his airplane shot down is a hero, and a guy that's good enough that he doesn't get shot down is not? I asked Kennedy about it, why are you a hero? He said, "They sank my boat." Why am I a hero? They shot down my airplane.

ZAHN (voice-over): Like so many World War II veterans, Bush never said much about his combat experiences, even to his family.

BUSH: And I don't lecture today my sons, those in politics and out. I'm very, very close to them, but I don't tell them, here's the way it was, you ought to do this or you ought to do that or do this in your life or don't do that.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: The first President Bush on his experience. More of Paula's interview with the former president runs tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING."

And through the magic of television, and it is magic, isn't it? Here is Paula again with a preview.

ZAHN: Thanks, Aaron.

On the next "AMERICAN MORNING," what does the first President Bush say about Saddam Hussein today? Well, in the final part of our exclusive series with the former president, he looks back at his war with Iraq, and looks ahead at what his son, the current President Bush, may be facing.

Please join us tomorrow at 7:00 a.m. -- Aaron.

BROWN: In that fancy new studio of theirs, 7:00 a.m. Eastern Time for "AMERICAN MORNING." We hope you will come back and join us tomorrow night. If you want to e-mail us, you can do that at newsnight@cnn.com -- or cnn.com/newsnight, I think that's actually how it works.

In any case, we're all back here tomorrow, and we'll straighten that out, too. Good night from all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.





for Alleged Buffalo Terrorists; Bombing Leads to Israeli Military Action>


Aired September 19, 2002 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, again, everyone. It was a party we heard about that must have been an absolute blast. It costs more than $2 million. There were waiters in togas, people posing as gladiators standing at the door, rented fig trees, unlimited caviar, and an ice sculpture of Michelangelo's David with vodka coming out of -- well, picture the David and you get the idea.
Imagine paying the bill for a party like that. And the really cruel thing is that some of you actually did. It was a party thrown by Tyco International, one of those companies that may well have been in a mutual fund that you own. It makes you a stockholder, and stockholders pay. They own the company, even if they don't get invited to the parties.

The party was thrown by the former Tyco chief Dennis Kozlowski, who today faced a bail hearing after being brought up on fraud charges.

This is a man who lived large, as they say. The government also says he lived with company money, stockholders' money, maybe your money. Money you thought might be better spent on, oh, let's say medicine when you get older. That money.

Compare that to Warren Buffet. Mr. Buffet, the legendary investor, among the richest men in the world, a man who still drives an old car, last time I checked, and carries his lunch to work in a brown paper sack.

Which one would you rather have handling your money?

Free marketers bristle at any thoughts of somehow reining in the outsized salaries and fairy tale perks, that this will set off some great exodus of top talent out of the boardroom. Somehow, we doubt it.

We think most of these people making $200 million a year, or $100 million, because these are tough times, would gladly do the job for $75 million, maybe even $50 million. Some might stoop so low as $25 million.

Stockholders, of course, would see the benefits of this. Though, in fairness, it would mean the CEO's would have to drink their vodka out of a glass.

With that out of my system, we go to the news of the day. We begin with Iraq and pressure from the White House on the Congress and the United Nations. Senior White House correspondent John King on duty tonight. John, headline, please.

JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Tough questions from Congress tonight, Aaron. Some Democrats wondering if the president wants too much power to go to war with Iraq.

Still, it is clear tonight the president will get most of what he wants from Capitol Hill. By this time tomorrow, we'll have a better sense of whether he'll be so lucky at the United Nations.

BROWN: John, thank you. Back to you at the top of the program.

On to Buffalo now, and another day of bail hearings for the men accused of supporting terrorism. Susan Candiotti is on that again for us tonight.

Susan, headline.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron. The defense came on strong this day. And scoffed at the notion of a Buffalo terrorist cell operating right here in western New York. They even offered an explanation for that intriguing e-mail we told you about last night.

BROWN: Susan, thank you.

To the Middle East next; another round of violence there, violence like we haven't seen in more than a month. Mike Hanna is back with us tonight.

So Mike, a head line from you, please.

MIKE HANNA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Aaron. Dramatic escalation in the level of conflict. Two suicide bombings in Israel within 24 hours, and Israeli forces once again lay siege to Yasser Arafat and his compound.

BROWN: Mike, thank you. Back to you, all of you, in just a moment.

Also coming up on the program tonight, more on the Middle East. We'll be joined by the Israeli ambassador to the United States, Daniel Ayalon.

And Anna Quindlen tonight on getting past the 9/11 anniversary, and a whole lot of other topics. We're glad she'll be with us.

Ken Auletta on a story that couldn't hit much closer to our home: what in the world is going on with AOL Time-Warner? All of that in the hour ahead.

We begin with the administration's effort to win congressional support for action against Iraq. For the first time today, the president formally laid out what he wants from Congress. The proposed resolution, he said, amounts to authorizing him to make war, should he decide to. Not a declaration of war, this is something no president since Franklin Roosevelt has sought for the Congress, but permission to wage war.

So lawmakers now have in front of them a piece of paper to consider, to change, to amend, all which the administration would like to happen as quickly as possible.

Again, our senior White House correspondent, John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): The subject, Iraq; the purpose, make sure there is zero ambiguity.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And if the United Nations Security Council won't deal with the problem, the United States and some of our friends will.

KING: To reinforce the point, the White House asked Congress to give the president a broad mandate to use military force against Iraq. A draft administration resolution calls for regime change in Baghdad and urges Congress to authorize the president " to use all means he determines to be appropriate, including force," to achieve three objectives:

Forcing Iraqi compliance with United Nations resolutions, defending the national security interests of the United States, and restoring peace and security in the Middle East region.

BUSH: You want to keep the peace, you've got to have the authorization to use force.

KING: The exact language is subject to negotiation, and some in Congress believe the White House draft gives Mr. Bush too much latitude.

SEN. RICHARD DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: We've spoken a lot about Iraq, but this proposal coming from the White House makes some vague reference to the region. Does that mean the entire Middle East or what? I mean, these are important questions that need to be asked and answered.

KING: But lawmakers who met with the president Thursday predict he will get most of what he wants.

REP. NORMAN DICKS, (D) WASHINGTON: It is becoming more and more obvious that Saddam Hussein not only possesses but has the intent to use weapons of mass destruction against U.S. interests abroad and possibly the United States.

KING: Claims by Iraq's foreign minister that his country has no weapons of mass destruction and has cooperated with the United Nations were met with scorn.

BUSH: It's the same old song and dance that we've heard for 11 long years. And the United Nations Security Council must show backbone, must step up and hold this regime to account.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: That tough talk directed at, among other nations, Russia. Will it work? The foreign minister and the defense minister from Russia will be here to see the president in the morning. We're also told Mr. Bush will pick up the phone and call the Russian President Vladmir Putin.

So Aaron, by this time tomorrow night, we should have a much better sense of whether the president can turn the tide and convince Russia, and then it will be France and China to lobby next to consider a new, tough resolution in the Security Council.

BROWN: Well, I see the stick; the tough talk is the stick. Is there any carrot out there that the president could offer?

KING: Depends on the country you're talking about. Overall, his carrot is the credibility of United Nations. When it comes to Russia, we are told one of the messages the president gives to Russia is, you do have a relationship with Iraq. You do want to get back in and have an economic relationship that would include oil. The president's message is a post Saddam Hussein Iraq would be a much more lucrative market than a continuation of the current stand-off with Saddam Hussein.

BROWN: And the Iraqis, as my memory goes, owe the Russians a good deal of money?

KING: A good deal of money, dating back to the Soviet Union. President Putin has made clear, he wants that money. That's why Russia over the past several years has urged sanctions to be lifted or at least eased. Mr. Bush case is, if you have a regime change, you'll get that money a whole lot sooner.

BROWN: John, thank you. Senior Whit House correspondent John King, again with us tonight.

To Buffalo now. And another day of bail hearings for the six Yemeni-Americans accused of training with Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.

The government is making the case this adds up to material support for terrorists. A crime. There may be more to the government's case. We clearly have not heard it all yet, but that's the best evidence put out there so far.

But, did the men go willingly? Did they actually train when they got there? That was the focus of the defense today.

Here again, CNN's Susan Candiotti.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI (voice-over): Defense attorneys raised pointed questions about the government's evidence, including an explanation for an e-mail sent last July by suspect Mukhtar al-Bakri to someone in western New York.

The e-mail read in part: "The next meal will be very huge. No one will be able to withstand it except for those with faith."

The government said it referred to a threat using explosives against Americans. Al-Bakri's lawyer said his client was only passing something he heard from on old man and a cab driver.

JOHN MALLOY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The old man indicated that he had heard that there was going to be some sort of action, most likely involving Americans. The van driver said basically, yeah, I heard the same thing. And not only that, people have had visions about this.

CANDIOTTI: Al-Bakri's lawyer says his client admits going to a camp but insists he wanted out once he got there.

An attorney for Sahim Alwan told the court his client had no idea he was going for Al Qaeda training, and once there he tried at least twice to leave. In a statement to the FBI, Sahim Alwan said, "I cried, I could not sleep. I even faked an ankle injury."

His lawyer says Alwan voluntary met with the FBI when he got back from the camp. But according to his client, Alwan was too scared to admit he and others were there.

JAMES HARRINGTON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: When I say terrified, they were terrified that there might be repercussions to them, at least to him, for having gone to Afghanistan and gone to this camp. And after September the 11th happened, those fears increased dramatically. He was between a rock and a hard place in terms of what he felt he could do.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI: The lawyers said their clients were all young and impressionable when they wound up at those camps. Although not every lawyer conceded that their clients were there. There will be more discussion tomorrow.

And frankly, Aaron, we're not quite sure when the judge will make up his mind about whether to grant bond. Back to you.

BROWN: And just a couple of perhaps small points. The government is opposing any bail for all of the men, they're treating them all of them the same?

CANDIOTTI: That's true. Unless down the road they decide to concede some points, at this time, the government maintains that all are too dangerous to be let out on bond, and have a risk of flight, a risk of running away.

BROWN: And has the government put out a reason why they believe they're a flight risk, other than they're facing fairly serious charges, certainly not the most serious charges that people face out there? CANDIOTTI: In the case of most or not all of them, it's because the government argues they have relatives overseas. And clearly because they have the means to travel overseas, because they went over there ostensibly for religious training and some allegedly wound up in these training camps, that that is the reason why they fear they could leave again.

BROWN: Susan, thank you. It's fascinating to watch this unfold. There just haven't been cases like this. Thank you. Susan Candiotti in Buffalo, New York.

Israel now. The tanks surrounding Yasser Arafat's compound tonight after a suicide bombing earlier today in Israel. Second such attack in two days, and cold water on the hopes of many Israelis, who were beginning to act as if life was returning to normal.

Normal is, of course, quite different on the Palestinian side. Israeli troops still control much of the West Bank, and curfews continue to make life less than pleasant for them. So we are back in an all too familiar pattern.

Here again, CNN's Mike Hanna.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HANNA (voice-over): A suicide bombing in the middle of Tel Aviv, the massive blast coming shortly after 1:00, at a time when Allenby Street was at its most crowded.

Five declared dead on the scene, more than 60 people wounded. And the horror, fixed in the minds of those who were the first to respond.

TIRAN SLOMON, EYEWITNESS: I saw their bodies and now I feel like half a man, like my legs, they cannot move. And my hands. Terrible. Absolutely terrible.

HANNA: This attack, along with the suicide bombing in northern Israel Wednesday, ended a period of more than five weeks in which there were no successful operations against Israeli civilians in Israel.

Faint hopes that had risen in the past five weeks that the attacks were drawing to close, now blown away. The realization among Israelis that they may be once again the targets of a renewed terror offensive.

This despite widespread Israeli military operations in Palestinian territory, during which dozens of Palestinians were arrested and as many as 70 Palestinians killed.

Within hours of the Tel Aviv attack, Israeli forces on the move in the West Bank city of Ramallah. Tanks and armored personnel carriers again entering the compound of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, the compound still bearing the scars of a similar Israeli operation earlier this year. (END VIDEOTAPE)

HANNA: The word from the Israeli government that it has once again decided to physically isolate Yasser Arafat and is also demanding that some 20 people in the compound with the Palestinian leader, whom Israel describes as wanted terrorists, be handed over -- Aaron.

BROWN: And they got some of those men tonight, did they not?

HANNA: Well, there's confusion and dispute over whether or not they got some of the men. Eyewitnesses did see as many as eight Palestinians walking out of the compound with their hand up. That Israeli ambassador has said that they were, in fact, some of those wanted people.

However, a source within the compound itself says the people who walked out were in fact being held by the Palestinians, accused of being collaborators in the cells, in the compound, saying there weren't any of those on Israel's wanted list. So dispute about that, Aaron.

BROWN: So that will take some more reporting and more time. And we'll let you do that. Just one other thing, because we haven't had a chance to talk about this much over the last couple of weeks.

Through this all, there actually have been some significant developments on the Palestinian side, and a weakening of the Arafat government.

HANNA: Very much so, Aaron. Recent weeks there's been a big debate in Palestinian society and within Yasser Arafat's own political movement, Fatah, about whether there should be attacks against Israeli civilians. The overwhelming belief, it would appear, was that there should not. That is against the interests of the Palestinian people. There was document going out to this effect, distributed widely through the Fatah movement. So that was out there.

Also our there was a rejection by the Palestinian legislative council of Yasser Arafat's cabinet. The cabinet was forced into resigning. A new cabinet now has been nominated by Yasser Arafat, which the Palestinian council may or may not accept.

So there have been in recent week two things happening: one, a rejection of violence as a political strategy among Fatah followers. And secondly, a rejection of those political leaders appointed by Yasser Arafat. And by association, the Palestinian leader himself.

BROWN: Mike, thank you. Mike Hanna in Jerusalem for us this evening. Another day in the Middle East.

And ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll talk to Israel's ambassador to the United States, talk about the day, Israeli reaction and more. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (AUDIO/VIDEO GAP)

DANIEL AYALON, ISRAELI AMBASSADOR TO THE US: ... was misleading, because this quiet period was not because of lack of attempts with Palestinian terrorists, but because of effective interception on our part. Unfortunately, the Palestinian leadership is still inspiring, financing, encouraging and committing terror.

Statistics, unfortunately, works against us. Currently, they find the holes to do it. Like they did today, like they did yesterday. But we are not deterred. We have to defend ourselves. And the only way to do it is by keep pressing on the terrorists and those who harbor them. And they see it right now in Ramallah with Arafat.

BROWN: As you look at the last couple of weeks, at least from here, and you may see it otherwise, we've seen what we would describe as encouraging signs coming out of the Palestinian side.

There seems to be some genuine frustration with Palestinian leadership, for one thing. A cabinet forced to resign.

Doesn't this in some respects, simply play into the hands of the hardest of the hard-liners on that side and against those who really want reform?

AYALON: No, Aaron, I don't think so. True, there is a growing realization among growing circles in the Palestinian society that this leadership did serve them wrong, betrayed their national interests and their national dreams. It is true.

But it takes a combination of measures: political and military. And it was a momentous speech of President Bush, 24th of June this year, that made it clear that terror will not pay.

And before we make any progress, terror should end, reforms must be made, so new leadership could take place, a leadership that is trustworthy, that is committed to peace and that is serious an effective.

BROWN: Respectfully, I want to try the question again, because I'm not sure, I'm not sure I heard the answer. All I'm saying here is that given that there is some, some momentum on the Palestinian side to do precisely what the Israeli government has been asking: change the leadership, reform Palestinian authority, doesn't a move like went on today, play into the hands of those that are least friendly to the state of Israel by hardening the positions on that side?

AYALON: No, because it shows a commitment not to be deterred by terror. And in fact, what this move that we made today, already yielded results.

You know, in Arafat's headquarters he harbors and shelters 19 murderers with blood on their hands. Nineteen murderers who were getting orders and financing terror. Now since we made this move a few hours ago, eight already turned themselves in. And we demand the rest of them to do the same.

It is very important, of course, to keep encouraging the cause for democratic reforms in the Palestinians. With transparency of finances, with new leadership, with separations of power.

But at the same time, we have also have to make sure that the terror doesn't reign, that Israelis are not killed brutally like they did today.

BROWN: We literally have about 20 seconds left. How long do you expect the military to be in Ramallah?

AYALON: Well, I can't really say, given a time frame. We demand the handing over of the rest of those terrorists that stay there, and the sooner we have them, and the sooner we break this infrastructure of terror, the better.

BROWN: Ambassador, it's good to meet you. Thanks for coming in today.

AYALON: Thank you very much.

BROWN: Israeli ambassador to the United States.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, there's no war with Iraq, yet, but there is a war of words underway already. We'll hear some of the words from both sides as NEWSNIGHT continues from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We talked about Iraq at the top of the program tonight . We told you we'd take a bit more time to look at some of today's developments in a bit more detail.

It is very possible, some even believe likely, that the fight between Iraq and the United States will, at some point, be fought with bombs and missiles, maybe bullets which would make it a very nasty war, indeed.

But for now, at least, words are the weapons of choice, the battles being fought in New York before the U.N. General Assembly and in Washington in front of the U.S. Congress. Both bodies may have something to say, as well, before any of the actual shooting starts.

But today, at least, the Iraqi foreign minister used the U.N. as his target, and the secretary of state aimed his words at the Congress.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NAJI SABRI, IRAQI FOREIGN MINISTER: In response to several appeals made by the inspector general, peace loving state and regional organizations, my government decided to allow the return of U.N. weapons inspectors without conditions. As this presents to us a comprehensive solution that includes the lifting of the sanctions imposed on Iraq and the timely implementation of other provisions of relevance, Security Council resolutions and including Resolution 671991.

I hereby declare in front of you, that Iraq is totally clear of all nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. If there are anyone amongst you who might still worry that the fabrications announced by American officials about Iraq might possibly be true, our country is ready to receive any scientific experts accompanied by politicians. You choose to represent any one of your countries to tell us which place and scientific and industrial installations they would wish to see, particularly those about which the American officials been fabricating false studies, alleging that they contain prohibited material productivity.

Our assets and oil revenues have been frozen. And we are unable to use them, except through a U.N.-run inefficient system already proven to be unfeasible. Substantial amounts of our revenues have been illegitimately seized in manner tantamount to looting. Contrary to the principles enshrined in the United Nations charter.

Therefore, we call for a discussion of the issue of inspection teams in accordance with international law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Iraqi foreign minister said the Iraq would let inspectors in, quote, "without conditions." And this morning in a speech at the United Nations, he challenged President Bush's September 12 speech. He even called for a discussion of the issue of inspection change, in accordance, quote, "with international law," he says.

He is already walking back. He is already stepping away from the "without conditions" statement that they made on Monday. But he is not deceiving anybody. It is a ploy we have seen before. We have seen it on many occasions and on each occasion, once inspectors began to operate, Iraq continued to do everything to frustrate their work.

The United States has made it clear to our Security Council colleagues that we will not fall for this ploy. This is the time, not to welcome what they said and become giddy, as some have done. This is the time to apply even more pressure.

We must not relent. We must not believe that inspectors going in under the same conditions that caused their withdrawal four years ago, is in any way acceptable or will bring us to a solution to this problem.

We can have debates and discussions and disagreements about the size and nature of the Iraqi stockpile of weapons of mass destruction, and we can discuss whether they are or not violating the range constraints on the missiles that they have.

But no one can doubt the record of Iraqi violations of United Nations Security Council resolutions. That is not debatable. It's a fact. It's a stated fact. And no one can doubt Iraq's intention to continue to try to get these weapons of mass destruction, unless they are stopped. And that is also not debatable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: The war of words on Iraq today still to come on NEWSNIGHT. A trip back in time with the first President Bush -- he reminisces about his extraordinary experiences in World War II. It's coming up at the end of the program.

Up next, we'll talk with journalist, Ken Auletta, about the troubled times from the guy that brought you, "You've got mail."

This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: About five years ago, a veteran producer in the news business said this to one of our young staffers: "Just wait," he said, "Soon enough, we'll all be working for an Internet company."

Well, he was right in the literal sense, but not in the spirit in which he said it back then. The Internet in those days seemed all- conquering. New media was going to trump the old ink-stained types, and we were all going to go forth in some grand, digitized future. It, of course, reached the pinnacle with the merger of AOL and Time Warner, and we know what's happened since -- a corporate mess, the stock price that sunk like a stone.

There was a board meeting today, and a lot of speculation that investors would try and push Chairman Steve Case out. They didn't.

Earlier this evening, I spoke with Ken Auletta, who has written a lot about the company for the "New Yorker" magazine. And on the subject of the media, he is one of the savviest people we know.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (on camera): First off, how did Steve Case go from the smartest guy on the block to something less than the smartest guy on the block? What happened there?

KEN AULETTA, "NEW YORKER" MAGAZINE: Well, if you take the long view, I mean, if you went back to the early '90s, he was the dumbest guy on the block.

BROWN: Yes.

AULETTA: His company was going to go out of business. It was going to be sold to Microsoft, and he fought that off. He looked like he was secure, and then in '95, '96, they had this crisis of service. It looked like he was the dumbest guy in the world, and then he was the smartest guy in the world, and he was. He bought Time Warner without his own money. It was a very clever move. And now, he looks like the dumbest guy in the world. Or maybe the real answer is that time Warner looks like the dumbest guy in the world. But they...

BROWN: Because they got snookered? AULETTA: They got snookered.

BROWN: These smart guys that were running the parent company of this network overpaid.

AULETTA: Oh, overpaid and ceded control for a time.

BROWN: Yes.

AULETTA: I mean, AOL was the acquirer...

BROWN: Right.

AULETTA: ... of Time Warner -- Time Warner, this company, with all these great assets. So, you know, if you're Ted Turner you're sitting there and you're some of the other board members, you're very dispirited, because you see your stock price going down. And that puts the pressure on Steve Case, but it's also a way of saying, we need a scapegoat here.

BROWN: Yes.

AULETTA: And it's a way of not looking at what your own responsibilities are.

BROWN: Now, do you think he survives?

AULETTA: Well, he survived today.

BROWN: I know that.

AULETTA: There was board meeting, and nothing happened, as was likely nothing would happen. He had three votes to block it at least...

BROWN: Yes.

AULETTA: ... and probably more. I think what happens next is largely out of Steve Case's control. It relates to three questions: What happens to the stock price, which he doesn't control? What happens to AOL's performance, which he has a little more control over? And lastly, which he has no control over, what does the SEC do? What does the investigation show? Does it show that Steve Case in some way is culpable for false reporting, for some of the inflated figures that AOL is supposedly guilty of?

BROWN: It seems to me that two or three of the best business- side stories these days are centered around media companies, whether Michael Eisner survives Disney. Why is it that media companies have become -- I mean, you must feel like it's Christmas every day of the year now. Why is it that these media conglomerates have become such important markers in the news business?

AULETTA: Well, first after all, they are very visible companies. They're in our living rooms or at our computer in our offices. And these companies made a decision in the way of peoplization (ph) of communications, that it's important to put a personality next to that name as a way of building your brand. So, Steve Case became a public personality and Michael Eisner became a public personality and so on down the line.

And obviously, as well, they play an important role. These are powerful companies and it's understood that the movies that they make and the television shows they make and the CNN shows that they are responsible for and the newspapers they produce have a great impact on our thinking and the information we use in our democracy.

So, these are much more vivid figures to us than most anyone in business, with some exceptions: Jack Welch, particularly in recent weeks.

BROWN: But they become sort of the steel barons of this time, it seems to me -- that they are the people, people talk about.

AULETTA: Well, I think we have talked about business people...

BROWN: Yes.

AULETTA: ... and not just them, for a long period of time, and part of it is our own infatuation with the stock market, which now 50 percent of all Americans invest in. That was unheard of 12 years ago.

BROWN: Yes.

AULETTA: And so, therefore, we had a kind of rooting (ph) interest in the performance of many of these companies. And now that these companies go bust and the stock market plummets, we have a kind of rooting (ph) interest, too, because we're sitting there and we're saying, my god, what happens to my 401(k)?

BROWN: Just 20 seconds left. Do you see a time when these -- these big media companies have tried this synergy, this integration. Do you see a time when they will divest, become smaller companies?

AULETTA: Well, I think that's happening now. I think there's a real argument that all of this hype about synergy -- and AOL Time Warner was as guilty as anyone of that -- has really created this notion that maybe these companies are too big.

BROWN: Yes.

AULETTA: Maybe you get so big, so cumbersome you cannot perform, and maybe small is better. So, I think you will see some divestitures.

BROWN: We'd love to continue this more. Will you come back and see us?

AULETTA: Oh, anytime.

BROWN: It's always good to see you. Ken Auletta, thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: And did we mention AOL Time Warner is the parent company of CNN? But you knew that, didn't you?

Later on NEWSNIGHT, a trip down memory lane with the first President Bush. Up next, we talk with author and columnist, Anna Quindlen. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: There was an interesting note in our guest file -- the one line that is supposed to give you an instant idea of what we'll be talking about with a certain person. For Anna Quindlen, it said this: "We can talk to her about her new novel and just about anything."

This would seem, at first glance, to be the kiss of death in terms of interviews -- the all-purpose guest, who can comment on anything and give insight into nothing. Anna Quindlen is not your all-purpose guest. We spoke with her this afternoon about her new novel called, "Blessing," and more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (on camera): First of all, nice to have you with us. And secondly, you have 30 seconds to tell me about the book.

ANNA QUINDLEN, AUTHOR, "BLESSING": It's a story of a baby left in a box on the doorstep of a big house in the middle of nowhere, and how that baby changes everything, in that way that babies always do.

BROWN: It changes -- that child changes all sorts of lives of all sorts of interesting characters who pop up in this mansion or this estate called "Blessings."

QUINDLEN: Right.

BROWN: Where did the idea come from? Had it been swirling around?

QUINDLEN: The idea of writing a novel about redemption had been with me for a long time -- about people finally getting it right at the last minute, after having it been wrong for some reason. And little by little, I came up with the idea of this older woman, Lydia Blessing, who is 80, and having made a lot of wrong turns in her life. She shut herself off really from living, and having this opportunity to suddenly open herself to all the joy there is out there.

BROWN: Do you think about who will like this book while you're writing the book?

QUINDLEN: No.

BROWN: Do you think about it afterwards?

QUINDLEN: No.

BROWN: Do you just kind of go through life assuming everyone will like the book if they grab it?

QUINDLEN: No, actually the worst case is I assume no one will like the book.

BROWN: Really?

QUINDLEN: When I have finished a book, when I finish the final draft, I take about a week and I read it aloud, which is how long it takes me to do it. Because I write by ear, and if I read aloud, I can hear all of the clunks in it, the places where the meter of the sentence doesn't quite scan.

And then at the end of reading the whole thing aloud, I sit down and I have to make a deal with myself. And the deal is, I like this. This is good work. I can send it out into the world. And I use that deal with myself to ward off the stresses of reviews, the stresses of marketing, the worries about, you know, how the book is going to do. But also, because the audience potentially is too big, the deal has to be with yourself -- yes, this is good.

BROWN: Has that changed over time? You've written successful novels, successful nonfiction, you're a much celebrated columnist. Are you -- has the process of -- has the fear factor changed at all over time?

QUINDLEN: Not much. I think what builds confidence is the understanding that you don't know what plays. I mean, it became commonplace for me when I was a columnist to write a column where I'd think, OK, I'm the only person in the world who feels this way. This one is just going to sink like a stone and get hundreds of letters from people saying, oh, thank you for saying that.

And conversely that you'd write one where you think, ah, this is a biggie, you know, I'm feeling good today. Nothing. So that you're not entirely sure what the heart of readers is yearning for until it gets out there.

BROWN: Do you ever go back and read your own books?

QUINDLEN: Never. Never, because when I do, all I see are the mistakes, I never see the good stuff.

BROWN: Can we talk about a couple of other things?

QUINDLEN: Sure.

BROWN: How did you explain 9/11 to your youngest child, who was probably 12 at the time?

QUINDLEN: I don't remember really explaining it to her in precisely that way, because given the fact that we live in Manhattan, so much of the first two days was logistics -- getting her home from school, trying to be in touch with her brother who was away at college, trying to figure out where her father was going to spend the night because he was on the other side of the river -- things like that. As the year has progressed and we've watched a lot of television coverage, we've talked with some frequency about how there's the capacity in human beings to do really, really bad things.

Luckily, a huge part of the story of 9/11 is the capacity of human beings to do really, really good things, and that's helped all of us as parents I think to explain what really happened here.

BROWN: You wrote a column about year ago, last October, in which you played with this idea a bit that out of this terrible tragedy, good has come. You were writing about the news business at the time, but you certainly could have been writing about a lot of other things. And you wondered at the end, will it last? So a year later?

QUINDLEN: I think it's lasted. I think a lot of it has lasted. I think people are just conscious. They're conscious of their own vulnerability, and being conscious of their vulnerability I think makes them more open to really an authentic living of their lives.

I sense individuals as much more in the moment now, than they were a year ago. And I think it's also helped to -- not to get rid of, but to lessen the hold of the celebrity culture a little bit. I mean, you know, when people cheered firefighters, you know that there's been a sea change in America.

BROWN: The book is called "Blessings." We wish you nothing but great success in this and everything else. You're a wonderful writer.

QUINDLEN: Thank you, Aaron.

BROWN: Thank you.

QUINDLEN: I'm happy to come back anytime.

BROWN: We'll take you up on it.

QUINDLEN: OK.

BROWN: Thank you again, Anna Quindlen.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT, a trip back in time to World War II and a man who would later become president and the father of another president. George Bush remembers as NEWSNIGHT continues from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Finally from us tonight, a president remembers. As the first chapters of George W. Bush's war story are being written, George H.W. Bush is finally laying out the key chapters of his, and his, of course, are quite different.

He wasn't the commander-of-chief. He was the lieutenant JG who could fly. He wasn't protected by scores of security agents. His protection in the end came from God or fate -- whatever you believe. His son is of a generation that may prove itself to be great some day. The father is of a generation that already has.

"War and Remembrance" tonight from a former president, who is lucky to have survived, is reported by Paula Zahn.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): On a spectacular sunny day in June, former President George Bush is trying to close a chapter on his life off the remote Japanese island of Chichijima.

GEORGE H.W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This way is America -- back there.

ZAHN: He has waited nearly 60 years to return to this spot, where he almost lost his life.

BUSH: I knew I had to get out of there. I had to stay away from the land, and I swam.

ZAHN: In these waters on September 2, 1944, Navy pilot George Bush was bobbing in a rubber raft, similar to this one, after his plane was shot down by Japanese soldiers dug in on the island.

BUSH: I was crying, I've got to confess. And I was scared. I was 20 years old.

ZAHN: Bush had been on a bombing raid, targeting a Japanese radio installation on Chichijima, when his plane was hit. He parachuted into the water and lost all contact with his two crew members.

BUSH: And I thought about my family, and you think about survival. You think, how am I going to make it?

ZAHN (on camera): Did you think you were going to die?

BUSH: I'm not sure I did. I was scared about it. I don't remember now thinking I've had it, there's nothing I can do, I'm going to die.

ZAHN (voice-over): One thing he knew, he couldn't drift ashore into enemy hands.

BUSH: But we were all shown pictures of an officer kneeling, and the guy with the big sword over his head about to kill him. And we were shown that as indoctrination photos when we were going out to the Pacific to make clear to us that being captured would be no picnic.

ZAHN: Then, after nearly three hours of paddling, drifting and praying, a remarkable vision.

BUSH: And suddenly you see a periscope, then you see a conning tower, and then you see a submarine. And the only thought I had was, well, God, I hope it's one of ours. And sure enough, it was the USS Finback. And they pulled me aboard, and I walked up dazed kind of -- I mean, still scared, I guess.

ZAHN: Incredibly, Bush's rescue was captured on film by a Navy photographer.

On board the Finback, he would learn his two crewmembers, Ted White and Jack Delaney, were lost. Eyewitnesses had seen one other parachute, but neither body was found.

BUSH: God, we were close to that island.

ZAHN: Today, as Bush visits the spot where he was rescued, there is no escaping the memory of the two who were lost.

BUSH: I think a lot of about them, and I think about them and I'm wondering, well, is there something I might have done differently? Is there some way that I might have saved their lives?

That's for Ted White and for Delaney -- Delaney. There we go. That's beautiful.

ZAHN (on camera): How did September 2, 1944 define your life?

BUSH: It taught me that when you face adversity, do what mother said, "Do your best, George, try your hardest." I look at all of this as having made me a better man. A little kid made into a man by a series of circumstances over which he had no control.

ZAHN (voice-over): And, Bush says, his rescue deepened his sense of commitment to country. After a month on board the sub, he returned to Pearl Harbor, where he was told he could go home.

BUSH: I said no, I want to go back and finish our tour. Hitchhiked back out to the fleet and flew some more missions over the Philippines.

ZAHN: After the war, Bush was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for his bravery on the bombing mission at Chichijima.

(on camera): You are a decorated war hero. Why don't you view yourself that way?

BUSH: I was doing what everybody else was doing. How come a guy who gets his airplane shot down is a hero, and a guy that's good enough that he doesn't get shot down is not? I asked Kennedy about it, why are you a hero? He said, "They sank my boat." Why am I a hero? They shot down my airplane.

ZAHN (voice-over): Like so many World War II veterans, Bush never said much about his combat experiences, even to his family.

BUSH: And I don't lecture today my sons, those in politics and out. I'm very, very close to them, but I don't tell them, here's the way it was, you ought to do this or you ought to do that or do this in your life or don't do that.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: The first President Bush on his experience. More of Paula's interview with the former president runs tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING."

And through the magic of television, and it is magic, isn't it? Here is Paula again with a preview.

ZAHN: Thanks, Aaron.

On the next "AMERICAN MORNING," what does the first President Bush say about Saddam Hussein today? Well, in the final part of our exclusive series with the former president, he looks back at his war with Iraq, and looks ahead at what his son, the current President Bush, may be facing.

Please join us tomorrow at 7:00 a.m. -- Aaron.

BROWN: In that fancy new studio of theirs, 7:00 a.m. Eastern Time for "AMERICAN MORNING." We hope you will come back and join us tomorrow night. If you want to e-mail us, you can do that at newsnight@cnn.com -- or cnn.com/newsnight, I think that's actually how it works.

In any case, we're all back here tomorrow, and we'll straighten that out, too. Good night from all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

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