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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Shootings Continue in Virginia, the District After 5 Shot to Death in Montgomery County; Lindh Sentenced in Court

Aired October 04, 2002 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening again. I'm Aaron Brown.
OK, listen up. Here's a proposition. Think how much time and trouble the country would save, not to mention how much money candidates would save, if we allowed them to skip that pesky campaign and election stuff altogether? They'd just go directly to court.

You're thinking that's crazy, but listen on. There'd be no more negative ads, no more sound bytes, no more tedious interviews, no more fundraisers and phone calls. The whole painful business would come down to just a couple of days before the bar.

The candidates could get up before the judge and make their best arguments, call a couple of character witnesses if they want. There may be a forensic expert or two to establish that the candidate has no criminal record and perhaps introduce a few other facts into evidence.

And presto: the judge would tell us who the next senator was going to be or representative or perhaps even a president. It seems to be the way things are headed anyway, so why not just get on with it?

It would be a nice change for judges, too, probably, who otherwise only get to deal with a lot of riff-raff. OK, maybe it wouldn't make that difference to judges. But if elections are coming down to be just a speed bump on the way to court anyway, why not just eliminate the middle man, meaning you, voters, altogether.

The gavel comes down, the election is over, we all go back to work. Going back to work in our case, however, means turning to the first truly troubling and terrible story of a long and difficult week.

We begin "The Whip" with a frightening story from suburban Washington. The deadly shooting attacks that seem to be going on. Kathleen Koch is with us. Kathleen, start us off with a headline, please.

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the list of victims in these sniper shootings is growing, as is the fear that is gripping now two states and the District of Columbia.

BROWN: Thank you very much. Back with you in just a moment.

Sentencing day for John Walker Lindh. Quite a day in court. Susan Candiotti covered that for us and is with us this evening. Susan, a headline from you.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello Aaron. He smiled at his family for support, but the smile quickly disappeared when John Walker Lindh faced the music. The 21-year-old American- Taliban choked back tears for what he did. A judge told him he'll have to pay for the choices he made -- Aaron.

BROWN: Susan, thank you.

On to another group arrested, most of them American citizens accused of conspiring to support terror. Our legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin is following that for us. Jeffrey, I think this is a first. A headline, please.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Aaron, the Feds busted what they said was another al Qaeda cell here in the United States. This one in Oregon. It's an important story on its own. But what makes it especially important is what it says about the new way that the federal government is doing law enforcement.

AARON: Jeffrey, thank you. Good to have you with us. Back to you and the rest in just a moment.

Also, coming up on this Friday night, a visit to a place known by some as Little Beirut. A small part of the inner city of Milwaukee that's become known nationwide for a dreadful murder committed by a mob of children.

And Jeff Greenfield tonight on truth in advertising. Or should we say half-truths. This is politics we're talking about, and after a rough week, there are a few smiles here. It is a reason to stay up. Well, we like to think the whole program is a reason to stay up, but that as well.

We all begin with a story of terror. Terror is a word we've used a lot over the last 12 months. But this is a reminder that terror isn't always spelled with a capital "T." It isn't always about groups in foreign lands with political grievances. Sometimes terror is as simple as a guy with a gun.

And that terror is what we begin with tonight, or at least it so appears. If you think we are overstating, here are the words of a mother today in suburban Washington, a place where five people have been murdered in the last 48 hours; perhaps two more cases connected.

Here's what he she said this mom: "My kids are scared. They're more scared now than on September 11." This killing spree appears to be continuing and so far not a hint of a suspect.

So we go back to CNN's Kathleen Koch.

KOCH: Aaron, we do have breaking news tonight, because CNN has learned that based on preliminary tests police now believe that the sniper who they think is responsible for five murders here in Montgomery County Maryland also shot dead a sixth man. That was last night in Washington D.C. And with preliminary tests that they are now awaiting -- forensics tests that they're hoping for on this shooting in Virginia today, could be responsible for a seventh shooting. The shooting of a woman in Fredericksburg, Virginia.

Now, Aaron, all these killings strikingly similar. All happened, all but one, in broad daylight. All in public places; all with sniper-style precision from a distance. And all as people were going about their very mundane activities: mowing their lawn, sitting on a park bench.

Now last night's shooting, a 72-year-old man was standing on a street corner in northern D.C. when he was shot in the chest. And police say he died immediately, and basically there were no witnesses to that shooting.

And that shooting, though, occurred just a few miles south of where the five shootings in Maryland occurred. Now today's shooting was outside a Michael's craft store in Fredericksburg, Virginia, where a 43-year-old woman alone was loading packages into her van.

Again, no witnesses to this shooting. But as the woman leaned over to load the packages into her van she was shot in the back. The bullet passed through her body and the woman is hospitalized tonight and is in stable condition.

But unlike the other cases here in Maryland and the case, at this point, in Washington D.C., police have found some really good solid evidence on the scene. They have found at least one shell casing. And that has been taken to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for analysis.

But sources tell us closest to the investigation they believe it was a .223 round, a high-powered round that was fired from a high- powered rifle. Now police today brought out an array of rifles. Some assault-style military rifles and also hunting rifles that they say could fire this type of round.

And they asked viewers, they asked everyone listening if they knew of anyone who opened a weapon like this who had used it recently who might be acting strangely. Anyone that might arouse some suspicion. And, Aaron, they also asked whoever it is who is responsible to surrender.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF CHARLES MOOSE, MONTGOMERY COUNTY POLICE: The person or persons that have done this need to recognize the error of their ways and surrender to law enforcement officials. You know, let them understand that there is honor in surrendering and turning yourself in and stopping this madness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOCH: And they also released a very detailed description of this white box truck that they have been watching, that was at least seen in one of these scenes, and they believe may have been involved in the shootings. Very detailed information.

They aren't telling us where the information came from. But they say the box truck had something as mundane as a bumper bent on the rear passenger side. They say that it had writing on the back and on the rear. Two different lines of boxed letters.

The vehicle has six wheels, four in the rear. It also has a roll-up rear door. So, Aaron, we were asking them were there more witnesses? Was this perhaps from a video camera that saw (ph) the truck?

And they won't tell us at this point, but a lot of fear in this county in Virginia and in Washington tonight.

BROWN: Well, do they, on the record, or in any other way, suggest to you that they have any idea at all who is doing this?

KOCH: They do not. We are waiting for a profile. They've been waiting on one from the FBI that they are hoping to get very soon. And they hope that that will give them some clues.

I've heard reports from FBI profilers that we've had on our air and other networks that this is someone obviously who is very skilled. Someone who knows how to use a weapon like this; someone who has been trained. Because using weapons like this, if you know what you're doing, you can hit a target with precision with one shot from distances up to 500 yards. That's the length of five football fields.

But again, as to the motivation, they think perhaps a thrill seeker, someone who gets, you know, gets their kicks from killing people. Sad and twisted.

BROWN: Kathleen, thank you. Kathleen Koch on the story tonight. Let's see where this one goes.

Now to the government's war on terror with a capital "T." Three very important stories about that tonight. We'll start with one that we think may be the most perplexing, at least in this moment.

Four people arrested in Oregon and Michigan. Two others charged. They are out of the country.

Accused of conspiring to support terrorism. There are echoes in this case of the arrest last month in upstate New York near Buffalo, a man also accused of supporting terror. And a perplexing part: how precisely have they broken the law?

Later, we'll hear once again from our legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin. But first the accusations and the suspects from CNN's Kelli Arena.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: These six individuals are charged with being part of an al Qaeda terrorist cell. Five are American-born U.S. citizens. One even served in the U.S. Army as a reservist.

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: Today is a defining day in America's war against terrorism. We have neutralized a suspected terrorist cell within our borders.

ARENA: Four of the accused are currently in custody, arrested in Portland, Oregon and Detroit, Michigan. Two remain at large overseas. The six are not charged with planning a specific terrorist act inside the U.S. or anywhere else, but rather conspiracy to wage war against the United States. To provide material support and resources to al Qaeda, and to contribute services to al Qaeda and the Taliban.

If convicted, they will face life in prison.

CHARLES MATTHEWS, FBI PORTLAND: A group of Oregon residents, most of whom were U.S. citizens, after September 11, and the attacks on the United States, decided to go to Afghanistan and fight for al Qaeda and the Taliban against the United States military.

Five of those individuals left the country. One stayed behind, and wire transferred money to support them while they were overseas.

ARENA: The five who tried to get to Afghanistan never made it. At least one made it only as far as Bangladesh. Three returned to the United States. Before that, one of the three, Jeffrey Battle, allegedly joined the U.S. Army Reserves to learn about U.S. military tactics and weapons.

ASHCROFT: While in Bangladesh, attempting to gain entry into Afghanistan, Battle caused himself to be discharged administratively from the United States Army Reserve, in which he had enlisted in order to receive military training intended for use against the United States.

ARENA: The investigation started a year ago, sparked by a tip from a local sheriff from Washington state, where the authorities say the suspects were using a gravel pit for weapons training.

CHARLES BRYAN: Started as a routine call. He -- a neighbor had heard noise of gunfire. A deputy was dispatched by himself, then encountered these individuals, which started, I guess, connecting the dots. That was the first dot.

ARENA (on camera): Officials will not comment on possible associates, but they do say the investigation is still under way. They are asking citizens to be on alert and to support any suspicious activity.

Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: As we said earlier, the case raises lots of questions. We'll talk with Jeffrey Toobin in a bit about some of them.

Now to the sentencing today of John Walker Lindh, the so-called American Taliban. "TIME" magazine this week had a serious of pictures of John Walker Lindh, starting out as a happy, seemingly at least, toddler, all the way to his capture with the Taliban, a young man with the hardened eyes of a fanatic. Well, the hardened eyes have softened for John Walker Lindh with the full weight of what he's done and what he's facing becoming all too clear. But for the judge and the family of another young American caught up in Afghanistan, the tears and the apologies come far too late. Once again, CNN's Susan Candiotti.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI (voice-over): Almost a year after U.S. forces captured him fighting alongside the Taliban, the long hair is gone. So is his freedom. John Walker Lindh entered the courtroom smiling at his parents, brother and sister, but not for long. He appeared to choke back tears and paused several times as he addressed the court for 14 minutes, before receiving a sentence of 20 years in prison. "I did not go to war to fight against America, and I never did," he told the judge.

The government saw it differently.

PAUL MCNULTY, U.S. ATTORNEY, EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA: John Walker Lindh chose to fight with the Taliban. And those who ally themselves with America's enemies may find themselves behind prison bars in America.

CANDIOTTI: The 21-year-old publicly condemned as the American Taliban denied he ever supported terrorism, yet he admitted training in Osama bin Laden's training camps and accepted his thanks for joining jihad. He said, "I want the American people to know, had I realized then what I know now about the Taliban, I would never have joined them." Of bin Laden, Walker Lindh then added this: "His grievances, whatever they may be, cannot be addressed by acts of injustice and violence against innocent people in America." Walker Lindh's lawyers continued to deny he was a member of al Qaeda.

JAMES BROSNAHAN, WALKER LINDH'S ATTORNEY: It's time for the American government, and I include the Attorney General Mr. Ashcroft, to get out and get some real terrorists.

CANDIOTTI: Trial Judge T.S. Ellis called the plea deal agreed to last July fair, just and reasonable, but gave it to Walker Lindh straight. "Life is making choices, and living with the consequences," he told the defendant. "You made a bad choice to join the Taliban."

Also addressing the court, the father of CIA Officer Johnny Michael Spann, killed in the prison uprising where Walker Lindh was held and captured. Unhappy the government dropped the charge of conspiring to kill U.S. nationals, Spann's father told the judge: "I don't believe the things Walker Lindh is saying to us." The judge replied: "We don't convict people without evidence beyond a reasonable doubt."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI: Walker Lindh denied he played a role in Spann's death. He did not deny hearing rumors about future possible attacks against America after September 11 and not telling anyone. Of that, the judge said, "you were willing to give your life for the Taliban, but not for your country" -- Aaron.

BROWN: Two quick ones. He has been talking to investigators as part of the plea deal, right?

CANDIOTTI: That's correct. And the government says he is cooperating fully and is providing helpful information.

BROWN: And two-part question. Of those 20 years, how many is he likely to serve under the sentencing guidelines, and where will he serve them?

CANDIOTTI: He'll serve most all of them. He does qualify for time off for good behavior at the end of each year, so that could make it more like 17 years, I'm told, and the judge did not say precisely where he'll serve his time. Not yet, anyway. He said he'd like to be near his parents in California and he'd like to stay some place where he can continue his education, but the judge said, more or less, we'll see.

BROWN: Susan, thank you. Susan Candiotti.

Tonight, the emotional regret from John Walker Lindh in stark contract to the attitude of Richard Reid, the man accused of trying to blow up a trans-Atlantic flight with explosives hidden in his shoes. Reid pleaded guilty today, and like Lindh, had a message for Americans, though a dramatically different one. "I did it, and I am your enemy." From Boston tonight, CNN's Bill Delaney.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL DELANEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Having sat through proceedings likely to send him to jail for life with an almost whimsical air, occasionally smiling at charges like murder, Richard Reid plead guilty to eight counts. Answering mostly in monosyllables -- though at one point saying "I am a member of al Qaeda, pledged to Osama bin Laden, and I am an enemy of your country." There were no deals, said the U.S. attorney, Michael Sullivan.

MICHAEL SULLIVAN, U.S. ATTORNEY: Richard Reid is an al Qaeda- trained Islamic extremist who, while on a martyrdom mission, engaged in acts of international terrorism that were motivated by his hate of the United States.

DELANEY: Federal Judge William Young denied a defense request to strike language accusing Reid of being trained by al Qaeda from the original indictment against Reid. Young then meticulously, charge by charge, made sure Reid knew the gravity of pleading guilty, and asked why he decided to. Reid said: "Because at the end of the day, I know I did the actions," including trying to ignite plastic explosive in his sneaker on an American Airline 767 three days before Christmas last year.

Boston's top FBI official praised passengers and crew who subdued Reid who was alone on the flight, not alone in the attempt to bring it down.

CHARLES PROUTY, FBI: I think it's a matter of public record that he did not -- that there is indications within the bomb itself that it was someone else who was involved in the construction of it. So he probably did have some help in making it, and that is of great concern to us.

DELANEY: Sentencing scheduled for January 8. 29-year-old Reid facing a minimum of 60 years in prison, a maximum of life.

(on camera): The prosecution will still lay out its entire case against Richard Reid at the sentencing hearing. Though much information they have may now remain confidential to protect witnesses, leaving intact much of the mystery still surrounding Richard Reid. How this man with just a fifth grade education managed to nearly bring down a 767, alone, as he's always claimed.

Bill Delaney, CNN, Boston.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Tough first section tonight.

Later on NEWSNIGHT -- a California jury awards $28 billion to a smoker with lung cancer. Up next -- more on the war on terror and the tactics being used to round up alleged supporters of al Qaeda.

Jeffrey Toobin joins us as NEWSNIGHT continues from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: So we heard the attorney general, John Ashcroft, call this a defining day in America's struggle against terrorism. In the wake of the arrests in Oregon and Michigan it's certainly an interesting phrase, defining day. Makes us ask in, legal and other terms, I think, just what it was that was defind.

Again answers from legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin. Nice to see you again. Walk me through some things here. If I say -- if I get on this program any place and say, I support al Qaeda, I believe in al Qaeda, and honestly, given the opportunity, I would join al Qaeda -- have I committed a crime?

TOOBIN: I don't think so.

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: The rules are changing. That's what is so interesting about these cases is that the Justice Department is taking a completely different tack into the whole idea of what law enforcement is. They are -- the whole goal of law enforcement now is prevention of future terrorist acts instead of prosecution of crimes that have already been committed. So it's a different perspective, and it's a different kind of prosecution.

BROWN: But clearly if I say, I support al Qaeda, I believe in al Qaeda and given the opportunity I would join al Qaeda, I merely -- merely, he says -- exercising his right of free speech in a political matter.

TOOBIN: You are. You got a pass from me so far.

BROWN: So far, OK. At what point then, in the eyes of the law, did these people commit a crime? When they got on the airplane?

TOOBIN: It really does seem to be that the airplane is highly significant. If this wasn't so serious, there would be almost a comic element to it. These guys from Oregon trying to go to Afghanistan. One of them gets stuck in Bangladesh. The other gets stuck in Beijing, China, of all places. And they keep getting wired money in Beijing to try to keep this ridiculous plot alive and they never make it to Afghanistan.

What's interesting here is that the charge is simply going to these countries en route...

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: Well going to China and going to Bangladesh en route is the crime. To fill out the picture, there are also accusations they bought weapons in the United States and did some kind of training within the United States, although didn't shoot any -- didn't commit any acts of terror in the United States. That's part of the charges as well.

BROWN: That's the other thing. There is no allegation here that they planned a crime? I'm sorry. There obviously is an allegation they were engaged in a crime.

That they planned some terrorist action or that they had committed some terrorist action. It is -- setting aside the gun charge for a second, it's merely -- mearly -- that they got on this airplane with the intent of ending up in Afghanistan and training with al Qaeda.

TOOBIN: It is. If youve seen them -- look at the words used in the charge. Count two, conspiracy to provide material support and resources to al Qaeda. What they mean is conspiracy to provide themselves to al Qaeda.

BORWN: Right.

TOOBIN: Their training, their work. What's peculiar, interesting, complicated about this is, you can advocate being in al Qaeda. You can speak out. You could probably even go over there and study the Koran with al Qaeda, but you can't go over there and train. And here -- they didn't even go there. They just conspired, planned to go. It's pretty far removed from waging war against the United States.

BROWN: Is there -- can you think of another context that isn't terror, that a law -- that would be somehow parallel to this? TOOBIN: Well, conspiracy law is famously broad. I mean, you don't have to be the bank robber to be convicted of conspiracy to commit bank robbery. If you rent the getaway car days before, you are -- it's an act in furtherance of the conspiracy. But this is unusual. And it's intentionally unusual because of the stakes involved.

The Justice Department has simply decided we are not going to wait. We may take some legal risks in pushing the envelope on these cases, but we are not going to wait until a crime is committed because we're not going to have another September 11.

BROWN: And the legal risk is they may get to court and a judge may say, You can't do this or a jury will say, We can't figure out what the crime is -- or a jury may not.

TOOBIN: Right. And in this environment, don't held hold your breath for a lot of judges being anxious to throw these cases out or juries being sympathetic.

But even John Walker Lindh -- when that case was brought, he was supposedly committing treason. That was very much a shrinking case. By the time he plead guilty it was a much reduced crime. He did not plead guilty to doing anything against America. So sometimes on the way to court these cases, they can grow, they can become more significant or they can turn out to be something less than meets the eye.

BROWN: In any case (UNINTELLIGIBLE) we have to move on. But it is an extraordinary redefinition of what law enforcement does, and I think that's the point is.

TOOBIN: It's exactly the point.

BROWN: Good to see you.

TOOBIN: Indeed.

BROWN: Have a good weekend.

Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT, a little bit later: a $28 billion court award against the biggest of the big tobacco companies.

Up next, a Milwaukee neighborhood and its group of alleged killers. This is NEWSNIGHT on a Friday from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A few stories from around the country making news. We begin with an update in the Jennifer Short disappearance -- one we wish we didn't have to give. Bone fragments and a skull found in North Carolina have now been identified as the remains of the youngster. Her parent were shot and killed seven weeks ago. She's been missing ever since. No arrests in the case. But police want to interview a man who is now in Canada whose mobile home was recently searched. Police found a map that had the Short's home marked on it. Police say he is one of handful of people they would like to speak with.

Clean up time in the Southeast after Lili. The Strom caused quite a mess. A lot of power outages. But we can report -- finally in one story tonight -- no deaths. And apparently there were only a few injuries, none too terribly serious.

And the closing bell couldn't come soon enough on Wall Street today. The Dow fell more than 2 percent, sixth straight losing week for the stock market.

Now to Milwaukee, and a few details you may have missed involving the young kids charged in the brutal death of a man on in the neighborhood on Sunday. It has been reported that one 14-year-old in the case is the father of a baby girl. He's in the eighth grade and was arrested before at the age of 10 charged with burglary.

Another of the youngsters was convicted of possessing a nine millimeter gun; another is being raised by his sister; and yet another, aged 13, does not know the name of the school he attends, when he attends.

Welcome to a world where it's hard, if not impossible for kids to be kids and maybe not that unthinkable for kids to become killers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEAN WHITE, MILWAUKEE RESIDENT: A lot of them dealing drugs. They really do. I'm not going to lie. It's just - I mean it's a little wild on this block. It's wild on this block. It really is.

BROWN (voice over): From their front porch in a Milwaukee neighborhood so dangerous, some residents call it Little Beirut. Jean and Bob White have seen almost everything.

J. WHITE: You really don't surprise me. I mean, from what I've seen there, you can expect this kind of stuff.

BOB WHITE, MILWAUKEE RESIDENT: A lot of them wants to make their money. A lot of them wants to be about the streets. You see what I'm saying?

BROWN: The Whites say they've seen at least some of the eight boys, who late Sunday night, according to police and prosecutors bludgeoned to death a 36-year-old man named Charlie Young Jr. Police say he was hit with broom handles, a shovel, broken tree limbs, even a 2 X 4. A fight that began over a thrown egg.

Bob White says she wasn't at home that night, but chillingly, police told him, what happened.

B. WHITE: They came up here and got my broom, my shovel and everything.

J. WHITE: We had a shovel right there, too.

B. WHITE: Yes, and they came up came up here and they got my stuff off my porch.

DORIS WILLIAMS, MOTHER OF TWO SUSPECTS: My kids aren't no angels. This I do know. But I know they are well mannered, and I try to teach them the best I know.

BROWN: Doris Williams, who has seven children in all, works overnight at a nursing home. She's the mother of two of the boys in custody. There's no father at home. The first sign of trouble, she says, was when one of her sons came home with a broken tooth.

WILLIAMS: When my son came in the house, he told me, he said, Mama, I was hit in the mouth. And I said by who? He said this man named June (ph). And I said, why did he hit you? He said, I don't know.

BROWN: June was the dead man's street name police say. And records show he'd been convicted four times on various felonies. And Doris Williams said he had a neighborhood reputation as well.

WILLIAMS: They would come in and say that he picks on kids. You know, he picks on smaller kids. Even my daughter, my 18-year-old she said the same thing. The he picks on kids and he threatened them and stuff like that.

BROWN: Police here are still astounded that one of the boys is only 10. He's being held here in the county juvenile detention center along with the other boys who range in age from 13 to 18.

PHIL HENNINGSEN, MILWAUKEE ALDERMAN: It's a terrible lesson for Milwaukee and a terrible incident for Milwaukee. I hope that we can work together to overcome this and to prevent a situation like this from happening again. But it's going to take the work of all sectors of society and the parents have got to wake up.

BROWN: That kind of sentiment has taken over the public debate here, in the wake of the beating death. Parents, community leaders say, must be more responsible. Doris Williams says she is responsible, but there was only so much one person can do.

WILLIAMS: It's really kind of hard, you know. Like I've been raising them from day one by myself. You know? So, it's kind of hard.

J. WHITE: I think that these kids really don't know the extent of what they've done. Ain't no way they can really know what they've done.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: The view from Milwaukee tonight.

Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT some great new political commercials. Well, they're the commercials we'd like to see. In fact, you may be seeing them soon. And up next, the court award of $28 billion in a smoking case. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: Tobacco litigation is a funny thing. On the one hand, jurors know that anyone smart enough to light a match is smart enough to know cigarettes kill. It nearly says that on the pack.

On the other hand the industry itself behaved in such a reprehensible manner for so many years that every now and then the jury sets aside the industry's argument, that everyone knows cigarettes kill, and focuses on the behavior of the industry itself.

In California, today, a jury did just that, and assessed punitive damages against the largest of the cigarette makers that give real meaning to the word punitive, even to an industry with 50 million addicted customers. Here's more from CNN's Allan Dodds Frank.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALLAN DODDS FRANK, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The punitive damage award by the California Superior Court jury was so large the jury forewoman wrote out the number $28 billion, to make sure everyone understood the message. The winning plaintiff, 64-year- old Betty Bullock, a long-time smoker, was too sick with lung cancer to attend a press conference.

MICHAEL PIUZE, BETTY BULLOCKS'S ATTORNEY: When Mrs. Bullock decided to take this case and go forward with it, she knew that she would never, ever see a penny of this. She didn't do it for personal gain. She did it to try to get back at people who lied to her.

DODDS FRANK: Philip Morris said it would appeal.

WILLIAM OHLEMEYER, ASSOCIATE GENERAL COUSEL, PHILIP MORRIS: The law in California, and the law, as the Supreme Court has set it out, is that there has to be a reasonable relationship between compensatory damages and punitive damages. In this case that relationship per this jury's verdict is 33,000 times.

DODDS FRANK: The same jury last week awarded Bullock just $850,000 in compensatory damages. The much larger punitive damages verdict highlights a troubling three-year losing streak on the West Coast for tobacco companies. Still on appeal, the five other cases in California and Oregon involving punitive damage awards of $10 of millions each. A California jury awarded Richard Bocan, a 56-year-old smoker $3 billion in punitive damages last year. But the judge reduced that the to $100 million. And it remains on appeal.

MARY ARONSON, TOBACCO LAW ANALYST, ARONSON WASHINGTON RESEARCH: The California juries, you know, we're the first to see a lot of the negative information that was made public by document release and whistleblowers during the mid '90s. And I think it's just a matter of time before attorneys in other jurisdictions are energized to try these cases elsewhere.

DODDS FRANK (on camera): The tobacco companies insist they'll prevail on appeal. Maybe so, but the verdict on Wall Street Friday was harsh. Philip Morris stocks slid more than 7 percent and lost $6.2 billion in market capitalization. Allan Dodds Frank, CNN Financial News, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: I've known our guests for a while, because for a while we wrote about and reported on tobacco related mattes. Mary Aronson, who you saw briefly in Allan's piece, is an independent analyst on tobacco litigation, sending her work to Wall Street firms for a fee, and to the occasional reporter.

Welcome, Mary. It's good to see you.

ARONSON: Great to see you.

BROWN: All right. There are so many things to ask here. Realistically, will a $28 billion punitive damage award stand?

ARONSON: No. How is that for a pithy answer.

BROWN: That's a good, clean answer, Mary. And it won't because?

ARONSON: Well, it's too big. I really do think that the trial judge himself is likely to lower the award before the rest of the appeals process starts. The judges in the other California cases, which have been multimillion and in one case a $3 billion punitive damage award certainly did that. And I think the same thing is likely to happen here.

How much of it is likely to stand at the very, very end of the appellate process is anyone's guess.

BROWN: The industry will not only appeal the punitive damages, they'll appeal the decision to award any damages at all. Is there anything about this case that is ripe for appeal that you know?

ARONSON: You know, I think this case is somewhat typical of a lot of the other cases we've seen over the years. The reason this case is a little bit different is because it's benefiting from the negative information, the negative documents released during the '90s when you really couldn't get away from all the bad things that the tobacco industry did. Looking at the evening news, looking at the newspapers, almost every week there was another story for about three or four-year period of time.

So, you know, I think this case is one case where the full benefit of those documents is being felt. The jury that was educated during that negative period is sitting in judgment, and the same public, the same juries are going to be sitting in judgment in all the other cases that come forward.

And then finally, this case is the first case to go to trial in California since the repeal of a law that was first enacted about 10, 12 years ago. A lot of people were thinking that when that law was repealed the industry would be protected from any bad behavior from the date of repeal on back, and the Supreme Court in the state recently said no. So this is the first case to be tried since that decision.

BROWN: It is interesting to me, or at least it seems to me -- you tell me I'm wrong, you have before. That you can take the same case, in many cases, or roughly the same case, the same set of facts, the same set of evidence, present it to a jury on the West Coast, and you'll get damages assessed against the industry. And present that case in the Midwest or the East Coast and the jury rules for the companies in about as much time as it takes to smoke a cigarette.

ARONSON: Yeah, you are wrong.

BROWN: You disagree?

ARONSON: Well, remember, there was a case in Florida where there was a class-action suit and in that case there was $145...

BROWN: No, I agree -- no, no, I'm not -- but these are individual smoker cases in places like New York, in Ohio, in Indiana...

ARONSON: Kansas?

BROWN: That have not gone anywhere, that I know of.

ARONSON: There was a case in Kansas several months ago, I'm losing track of time with all the cases we're seeing, in which not only was a fairly hefty award made, around $15 million if my memory serves me, but it was also in a federal case. Until this time, the federal courts were the haven or viewed as the havens for the tobacco industry. The state courts were, you know, the places where all of the locally elected judges were, and it was felt as a safer place for plaintiffs to be. Here was a case in Kansas where $15 million was awarded in a federal court. There was another federal lawsuit that was concluded earlier this week where...

BROWN: Mary, I'm convinced on this point, I'm wrong. I've got less than a minute, I want to try to get two things in.

ARONSON: Oh, never enough time for tobacco.

BROWN: Thank you. Any -- quickly. Any difference in the tactics the industry is using to defend itself these days?

ARONSON: I wasn't at this trial so I can't really answer that. But, you know, I think the individual cases are clearly going to be a problem for the industry for some time to come because of the documents, because of this educated public that I spoke about. Document that were released about the industry's bad behavior, and there are plenty of attorneys who are willing to bring these suites now that they see they can be won.

BROWN: Mary, good to see you. Thanks for your time tonight.

ARONSON: Thank you.

BROWN: Mary Aronson, tobacco analyst. Ahead on NEWSNIGHT some amazing claims made in political commercials. It's a lovely spot. Coming up at the end of the program.

And up next, the debate on Iraq begins on Capitol Hill. I'm a go (ph).

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Travel plans for the United Nations Chief Weapons Inspector Hans Blix, are still up in the air where a trip to Baghdad is concerned. Mr. Blix, he's the one in the green tie, there, did make the trip to Washington today to meet with the secretary of State. The State Department spokesman said that that Secretary Powell urged Hans Blix not to take no for an answer, from the Iraqis, whenever it is that he and his team go looking for weapons of mass destruction.

Diplomacy goes on, so does the debate in the U.S. Senate. Political pundits expect that eventually the White House will get a resolution authorizing military force against Iraq under some circumstances. But there is still some opposition.

And the Senate being the Senate, the debate often comes with a lot of high-minded flourish. Here today an exchange between Senator John Warner, the ranking Republican on the Armed Services Committee and Senator Robert Byrd, the senior Democrat in the Senate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN WARNER (R-VA), ARMED SERVICES CMTE.: Is there a word in this resolution, and I hold myself responsible for the words in this resolution, is there any word, is there any sentence, is there any paragraph that exceeds the authority given to the president of the United States in the Constitution which you love and defend so dearly?

SEN. ROBERT BYRD (D), WEST VIRGINIA: Absolutely. Absolutely. This whole piece of -- this great expenditure of paper is nothing more than a blank check given to the president of the United States to use the forces of this country, the military forces, in whatever way he determines, whenever he determines?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Senator Byrd and Senator Warner, and then me for some reason in the middle of it.

President Bush expected to deliver a speech to the country Monday 8 o'clock in the evening Eastern Time. The president will be in Cincinnati to talk about Iraq and the threat it poses to the United States. We will carry that speech live. Again that's 8 o'clock Monday night here on CNN.

Quick look at some of the other stories making news around the world today. In Gaza today, thousands of Palestinians took to the streets to protest a new American law that recognizes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. President Bush signed the law, even though he opposes that provision of it. White House says American policy in the matter of Israel's capital has not actually changed, law or no law. None of which stopped today's protest.

In Belfast, Northern Ireland police raided the offices Shin Fein (ph), of the political wing of the Irish Republican Army, making arrests and seizing documents and computer discs. Police were investigating the activities of Republican terrorists.

And this is 43-year-old Terry Watson after being plucked by the Coast Guard off a small sailboat off the coast of North Carolina. He was delusional and emaciated at the time. So, his story still isn't precisely clear, but it seems Mr. Watson may have been adrift in the Atlantic since late July. Officials say he eventually should be OK.

Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT, truth in advertising, political advertising. Short break, right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Remember that clever little tongue in cheek proposal with which we began the program? Do away with campaigns and let elections be decided by the courts? That would make political commercials the thing of the past, which in turn, would deprive CNN's Political Analyst Jeff Greenfield from some very good material.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST (on camera): Promise, large promise, is the soul of advertising Samuel Johnson once wrote. When it comes to political ads from incumbents, the promise of great things done is very large indeed. Listen to enough of these ads and you think they were all running for re-election as governor of Eden.

ANNOUNCER: No governor has done more than our governor, George Pataki. Cleaner air and water. More open space. Healthcare for children.

FEMALE CANDIDATE: I also fought for tighter accounting rules and prison time for CEOs who commit fraud.

ANNOUNCER: He gave us the $500 per child tax credit and the Social Security Benefits Guarantee Act.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Having Tim Johnson on the appropriations committee meant for the Watertown School District a grant of $220,000.

ANNOUNCER: The finance committee chairman who got millions for Montana highways, creating 11,000 jobs.

GREENFIELD: All pretty standard stuff, you'd agree. But there's one incumbent senator who has, we think, broken bold, new ground with one of his claims.

WAYN ALLARD: It's going to be a close race.

GREENFIELD: The incumbent, Colorado Senator Wayne Allard, locked in a tough re-election fight with Tom Strickland. In a mailing to senior citizens the Allard campaign claims "Social Security benefits for Colorado seniors have increased every year Wayne Allard has served Colorado in the U.S. Senate."

Now, that claim is literally true. Of course, benefits have increased for all seniors, not just those in Colorado because those cost of living increases were long ago locked into the law. Those benefits would have gone up even if Senator Allard had never set foot in the U.S. Senate.

When "The Rocky Mountain News" pointed this out to the campaign manager his response was, and we're quoting here, "OK, but what's your point?"

Well, maybe the Allard campaign is on to something here. We think it opens up whole new vistas of opportunity for hard-pressed incumbents. For instance, maybe Minnesota's Paul Wellstone could argue that:

ANNOUNCER: In the 2 years that Wellstone has been our senator, Minnesota has never been hit by a category five hurricane.

GREENFEILD: Or perhaps, Maine's Susan Collins could claim that:

ANNOUNCER: The gross domestic product has increased by $2.269 trillion during her years in office.

GREENFIELD: And why doesn't California Governor Gray Davis argue that:

ANNOUNCER: Not one, not two, but three California baseball teams made the postseason even before he finished his first team.

GREENFIELD: In fact it's too bad that South Carolina's Strom Thurmond has decided at age 100 not to run again for the U.S. Senate. Do you realize how much faster automobiles go ever since Strom first got into the Senate?

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Have a great weekend. We'll see you on Monday. Good night from all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





to Death in Montgomery County; Lindh Sentenced in Court>


Aired October 4, 2002 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening again. I'm Aaron Brown.
OK, listen up. Here's a proposition. Think how much time and trouble the country would save, not to mention how much money candidates would save, if we allowed them to skip that pesky campaign and election stuff altogether? They'd just go directly to court.

You're thinking that's crazy, but listen on. There'd be no more negative ads, no more sound bytes, no more tedious interviews, no more fundraisers and phone calls. The whole painful business would come down to just a couple of days before the bar.

The candidates could get up before the judge and make their best arguments, call a couple of character witnesses if they want. There may be a forensic expert or two to establish that the candidate has no criminal record and perhaps introduce a few other facts into evidence.

And presto: the judge would tell us who the next senator was going to be or representative or perhaps even a president. It seems to be the way things are headed anyway, so why not just get on with it?

It would be a nice change for judges, too, probably, who otherwise only get to deal with a lot of riff-raff. OK, maybe it wouldn't make that difference to judges. But if elections are coming down to be just a speed bump on the way to court anyway, why not just eliminate the middle man, meaning you, voters, altogether.

The gavel comes down, the election is over, we all go back to work. Going back to work in our case, however, means turning to the first truly troubling and terrible story of a long and difficult week.

We begin "The Whip" with a frightening story from suburban Washington. The deadly shooting attacks that seem to be going on. Kathleen Koch is with us. Kathleen, start us off with a headline, please.

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the list of victims in these sniper shootings is growing, as is the fear that is gripping now two states and the District of Columbia.

BROWN: Thank you very much. Back with you in just a moment.

Sentencing day for John Walker Lindh. Quite a day in court. Susan Candiotti covered that for us and is with us this evening. Susan, a headline from you.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello Aaron. He smiled at his family for support, but the smile quickly disappeared when John Walker Lindh faced the music. The 21-year-old American- Taliban choked back tears for what he did. A judge told him he'll have to pay for the choices he made -- Aaron.

BROWN: Susan, thank you.

On to another group arrested, most of them American citizens accused of conspiring to support terror. Our legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin is following that for us. Jeffrey, I think this is a first. A headline, please.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Aaron, the Feds busted what they said was another al Qaeda cell here in the United States. This one in Oregon. It's an important story on its own. But what makes it especially important is what it says about the new way that the federal government is doing law enforcement.

AARON: Jeffrey, thank you. Good to have you with us. Back to you and the rest in just a moment.

Also, coming up on this Friday night, a visit to a place known by some as Little Beirut. A small part of the inner city of Milwaukee that's become known nationwide for a dreadful murder committed by a mob of children.

And Jeff Greenfield tonight on truth in advertising. Or should we say half-truths. This is politics we're talking about, and after a rough week, there are a few smiles here. It is a reason to stay up. Well, we like to think the whole program is a reason to stay up, but that as well.

We all begin with a story of terror. Terror is a word we've used a lot over the last 12 months. But this is a reminder that terror isn't always spelled with a capital "T." It isn't always about groups in foreign lands with political grievances. Sometimes terror is as simple as a guy with a gun.

And that terror is what we begin with tonight, or at least it so appears. If you think we are overstating, here are the words of a mother today in suburban Washington, a place where five people have been murdered in the last 48 hours; perhaps two more cases connected.

Here's what he she said this mom: "My kids are scared. They're more scared now than on September 11." This killing spree appears to be continuing and so far not a hint of a suspect.

So we go back to CNN's Kathleen Koch.

KOCH: Aaron, we do have breaking news tonight, because CNN has learned that based on preliminary tests police now believe that the sniper who they think is responsible for five murders here in Montgomery County Maryland also shot dead a sixth man. That was last night in Washington D.C. And with preliminary tests that they are now awaiting -- forensics tests that they're hoping for on this shooting in Virginia today, could be responsible for a seventh shooting. The shooting of a woman in Fredericksburg, Virginia.

Now, Aaron, all these killings strikingly similar. All happened, all but one, in broad daylight. All in public places; all with sniper-style precision from a distance. And all as people were going about their very mundane activities: mowing their lawn, sitting on a park bench.

Now last night's shooting, a 72-year-old man was standing on a street corner in northern D.C. when he was shot in the chest. And police say he died immediately, and basically there were no witnesses to that shooting.

And that shooting, though, occurred just a few miles south of where the five shootings in Maryland occurred. Now today's shooting was outside a Michael's craft store in Fredericksburg, Virginia, where a 43-year-old woman alone was loading packages into her van.

Again, no witnesses to this shooting. But as the woman leaned over to load the packages into her van she was shot in the back. The bullet passed through her body and the woman is hospitalized tonight and is in stable condition.

But unlike the other cases here in Maryland and the case, at this point, in Washington D.C., police have found some really good solid evidence on the scene. They have found at least one shell casing. And that has been taken to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for analysis.

But sources tell us closest to the investigation they believe it was a .223 round, a high-powered round that was fired from a high- powered rifle. Now police today brought out an array of rifles. Some assault-style military rifles and also hunting rifles that they say could fire this type of round.

And they asked viewers, they asked everyone listening if they knew of anyone who opened a weapon like this who had used it recently who might be acting strangely. Anyone that might arouse some suspicion. And, Aaron, they also asked whoever it is who is responsible to surrender.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF CHARLES MOOSE, MONTGOMERY COUNTY POLICE: The person or persons that have done this need to recognize the error of their ways and surrender to law enforcement officials. You know, let them understand that there is honor in surrendering and turning yourself in and stopping this madness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOCH: And they also released a very detailed description of this white box truck that they have been watching, that was at least seen in one of these scenes, and they believe may have been involved in the shootings. Very detailed information.

They aren't telling us where the information came from. But they say the box truck had something as mundane as a bumper bent on the rear passenger side. They say that it had writing on the back and on the rear. Two different lines of boxed letters.

The vehicle has six wheels, four in the rear. It also has a roll-up rear door. So, Aaron, we were asking them were there more witnesses? Was this perhaps from a video camera that saw (ph) the truck?

And they won't tell us at this point, but a lot of fear in this county in Virginia and in Washington tonight.

BROWN: Well, do they, on the record, or in any other way, suggest to you that they have any idea at all who is doing this?

KOCH: They do not. We are waiting for a profile. They've been waiting on one from the FBI that they are hoping to get very soon. And they hope that that will give them some clues.

I've heard reports from FBI profilers that we've had on our air and other networks that this is someone obviously who is very skilled. Someone who knows how to use a weapon like this; someone who has been trained. Because using weapons like this, if you know what you're doing, you can hit a target with precision with one shot from distances up to 500 yards. That's the length of five football fields.

But again, as to the motivation, they think perhaps a thrill seeker, someone who gets, you know, gets their kicks from killing people. Sad and twisted.

BROWN: Kathleen, thank you. Kathleen Koch on the story tonight. Let's see where this one goes.

Now to the government's war on terror with a capital "T." Three very important stories about that tonight. We'll start with one that we think may be the most perplexing, at least in this moment.

Four people arrested in Oregon and Michigan. Two others charged. They are out of the country.

Accused of conspiring to support terrorism. There are echoes in this case of the arrest last month in upstate New York near Buffalo, a man also accused of supporting terror. And a perplexing part: how precisely have they broken the law?

Later, we'll hear once again from our legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin. But first the accusations and the suspects from CNN's Kelli Arena.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: These six individuals are charged with being part of an al Qaeda terrorist cell. Five are American-born U.S. citizens. One even served in the U.S. Army as a reservist.

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: Today is a defining day in America's war against terrorism. We have neutralized a suspected terrorist cell within our borders.

ARENA: Four of the accused are currently in custody, arrested in Portland, Oregon and Detroit, Michigan. Two remain at large overseas. The six are not charged with planning a specific terrorist act inside the U.S. or anywhere else, but rather conspiracy to wage war against the United States. To provide material support and resources to al Qaeda, and to contribute services to al Qaeda and the Taliban.

If convicted, they will face life in prison.

CHARLES MATTHEWS, FBI PORTLAND: A group of Oregon residents, most of whom were U.S. citizens, after September 11, and the attacks on the United States, decided to go to Afghanistan and fight for al Qaeda and the Taliban against the United States military.

Five of those individuals left the country. One stayed behind, and wire transferred money to support them while they were overseas.

ARENA: The five who tried to get to Afghanistan never made it. At least one made it only as far as Bangladesh. Three returned to the United States. Before that, one of the three, Jeffrey Battle, allegedly joined the U.S. Army Reserves to learn about U.S. military tactics and weapons.

ASHCROFT: While in Bangladesh, attempting to gain entry into Afghanistan, Battle caused himself to be discharged administratively from the United States Army Reserve, in which he had enlisted in order to receive military training intended for use against the United States.

ARENA: The investigation started a year ago, sparked by a tip from a local sheriff from Washington state, where the authorities say the suspects were using a gravel pit for weapons training.

CHARLES BRYAN: Started as a routine call. He -- a neighbor had heard noise of gunfire. A deputy was dispatched by himself, then encountered these individuals, which started, I guess, connecting the dots. That was the first dot.

ARENA (on camera): Officials will not comment on possible associates, but they do say the investigation is still under way. They are asking citizens to be on alert and to support any suspicious activity.

Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: As we said earlier, the case raises lots of questions. We'll talk with Jeffrey Toobin in a bit about some of them.

Now to the sentencing today of John Walker Lindh, the so-called American Taliban. "TIME" magazine this week had a serious of pictures of John Walker Lindh, starting out as a happy, seemingly at least, toddler, all the way to his capture with the Taliban, a young man with the hardened eyes of a fanatic. Well, the hardened eyes have softened for John Walker Lindh with the full weight of what he's done and what he's facing becoming all too clear. But for the judge and the family of another young American caught up in Afghanistan, the tears and the apologies come far too late. Once again, CNN's Susan Candiotti.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI (voice-over): Almost a year after U.S. forces captured him fighting alongside the Taliban, the long hair is gone. So is his freedom. John Walker Lindh entered the courtroom smiling at his parents, brother and sister, but not for long. He appeared to choke back tears and paused several times as he addressed the court for 14 minutes, before receiving a sentence of 20 years in prison. "I did not go to war to fight against America, and I never did," he told the judge.

The government saw it differently.

PAUL MCNULTY, U.S. ATTORNEY, EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA: John Walker Lindh chose to fight with the Taliban. And those who ally themselves with America's enemies may find themselves behind prison bars in America.

CANDIOTTI: The 21-year-old publicly condemned as the American Taliban denied he ever supported terrorism, yet he admitted training in Osama bin Laden's training camps and accepted his thanks for joining jihad. He said, "I want the American people to know, had I realized then what I know now about the Taliban, I would never have joined them." Of bin Laden, Walker Lindh then added this: "His grievances, whatever they may be, cannot be addressed by acts of injustice and violence against innocent people in America." Walker Lindh's lawyers continued to deny he was a member of al Qaeda.

JAMES BROSNAHAN, WALKER LINDH'S ATTORNEY: It's time for the American government, and I include the Attorney General Mr. Ashcroft, to get out and get some real terrorists.

CANDIOTTI: Trial Judge T.S. Ellis called the plea deal agreed to last July fair, just and reasonable, but gave it to Walker Lindh straight. "Life is making choices, and living with the consequences," he told the defendant. "You made a bad choice to join the Taliban."

Also addressing the court, the father of CIA Officer Johnny Michael Spann, killed in the prison uprising where Walker Lindh was held and captured. Unhappy the government dropped the charge of conspiring to kill U.S. nationals, Spann's father told the judge: "I don't believe the things Walker Lindh is saying to us." The judge replied: "We don't convict people without evidence beyond a reasonable doubt."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI: Walker Lindh denied he played a role in Spann's death. He did not deny hearing rumors about future possible attacks against America after September 11 and not telling anyone. Of that, the judge said, "you were willing to give your life for the Taliban, but not for your country" -- Aaron.

BROWN: Two quick ones. He has been talking to investigators as part of the plea deal, right?

CANDIOTTI: That's correct. And the government says he is cooperating fully and is providing helpful information.

BROWN: And two-part question. Of those 20 years, how many is he likely to serve under the sentencing guidelines, and where will he serve them?

CANDIOTTI: He'll serve most all of them. He does qualify for time off for good behavior at the end of each year, so that could make it more like 17 years, I'm told, and the judge did not say precisely where he'll serve his time. Not yet, anyway. He said he'd like to be near his parents in California and he'd like to stay some place where he can continue his education, but the judge said, more or less, we'll see.

BROWN: Susan, thank you. Susan Candiotti.

Tonight, the emotional regret from John Walker Lindh in stark contract to the attitude of Richard Reid, the man accused of trying to blow up a trans-Atlantic flight with explosives hidden in his shoes. Reid pleaded guilty today, and like Lindh, had a message for Americans, though a dramatically different one. "I did it, and I am your enemy." From Boston tonight, CNN's Bill Delaney.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL DELANEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Having sat through proceedings likely to send him to jail for life with an almost whimsical air, occasionally smiling at charges like murder, Richard Reid plead guilty to eight counts. Answering mostly in monosyllables -- though at one point saying "I am a member of al Qaeda, pledged to Osama bin Laden, and I am an enemy of your country." There were no deals, said the U.S. attorney, Michael Sullivan.

MICHAEL SULLIVAN, U.S. ATTORNEY: Richard Reid is an al Qaeda- trained Islamic extremist who, while on a martyrdom mission, engaged in acts of international terrorism that were motivated by his hate of the United States.

DELANEY: Federal Judge William Young denied a defense request to strike language accusing Reid of being trained by al Qaeda from the original indictment against Reid. Young then meticulously, charge by charge, made sure Reid knew the gravity of pleading guilty, and asked why he decided to. Reid said: "Because at the end of the day, I know I did the actions," including trying to ignite plastic explosive in his sneaker on an American Airline 767 three days before Christmas last year.

Boston's top FBI official praised passengers and crew who subdued Reid who was alone on the flight, not alone in the attempt to bring it down.

CHARLES PROUTY, FBI: I think it's a matter of public record that he did not -- that there is indications within the bomb itself that it was someone else who was involved in the construction of it. So he probably did have some help in making it, and that is of great concern to us.

DELANEY: Sentencing scheduled for January 8. 29-year-old Reid facing a minimum of 60 years in prison, a maximum of life.

(on camera): The prosecution will still lay out its entire case against Richard Reid at the sentencing hearing. Though much information they have may now remain confidential to protect witnesses, leaving intact much of the mystery still surrounding Richard Reid. How this man with just a fifth grade education managed to nearly bring down a 767, alone, as he's always claimed.

Bill Delaney, CNN, Boston.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Tough first section tonight.

Later on NEWSNIGHT -- a California jury awards $28 billion to a smoker with lung cancer. Up next -- more on the war on terror and the tactics being used to round up alleged supporters of al Qaeda.

Jeffrey Toobin joins us as NEWSNIGHT continues from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: So we heard the attorney general, John Ashcroft, call this a defining day in America's struggle against terrorism. In the wake of the arrests in Oregon and Michigan it's certainly an interesting phrase, defining day. Makes us ask in, legal and other terms, I think, just what it was that was defind.

Again answers from legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin. Nice to see you again. Walk me through some things here. If I say -- if I get on this program any place and say, I support al Qaeda, I believe in al Qaeda, and honestly, given the opportunity, I would join al Qaeda -- have I committed a crime?

TOOBIN: I don't think so.

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: The rules are changing. That's what is so interesting about these cases is that the Justice Department is taking a completely different tack into the whole idea of what law enforcement is. They are -- the whole goal of law enforcement now is prevention of future terrorist acts instead of prosecution of crimes that have already been committed. So it's a different perspective, and it's a different kind of prosecution.

BROWN: But clearly if I say, I support al Qaeda, I believe in al Qaeda and given the opportunity I would join al Qaeda, I merely -- merely, he says -- exercising his right of free speech in a political matter.

TOOBIN: You are. You got a pass from me so far.

BROWN: So far, OK. At what point then, in the eyes of the law, did these people commit a crime? When they got on the airplane?

TOOBIN: It really does seem to be that the airplane is highly significant. If this wasn't so serious, there would be almost a comic element to it. These guys from Oregon trying to go to Afghanistan. One of them gets stuck in Bangladesh. The other gets stuck in Beijing, China, of all places. And they keep getting wired money in Beijing to try to keep this ridiculous plot alive and they never make it to Afghanistan.

What's interesting here is that the charge is simply going to these countries en route...

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: Well going to China and going to Bangladesh en route is the crime. To fill out the picture, there are also accusations they bought weapons in the United States and did some kind of training within the United States, although didn't shoot any -- didn't commit any acts of terror in the United States. That's part of the charges as well.

BROWN: That's the other thing. There is no allegation here that they planned a crime? I'm sorry. There obviously is an allegation they were engaged in a crime.

That they planned some terrorist action or that they had committed some terrorist action. It is -- setting aside the gun charge for a second, it's merely -- mearly -- that they got on this airplane with the intent of ending up in Afghanistan and training with al Qaeda.

TOOBIN: It is. If youve seen them -- look at the words used in the charge. Count two, conspiracy to provide material support and resources to al Qaeda. What they mean is conspiracy to provide themselves to al Qaeda.

BORWN: Right.

TOOBIN: Their training, their work. What's peculiar, interesting, complicated about this is, you can advocate being in al Qaeda. You can speak out. You could probably even go over there and study the Koran with al Qaeda, but you can't go over there and train. And here -- they didn't even go there. They just conspired, planned to go. It's pretty far removed from waging war against the United States.

BROWN: Is there -- can you think of another context that isn't terror, that a law -- that would be somehow parallel to this? TOOBIN: Well, conspiracy law is famously broad. I mean, you don't have to be the bank robber to be convicted of conspiracy to commit bank robbery. If you rent the getaway car days before, you are -- it's an act in furtherance of the conspiracy. But this is unusual. And it's intentionally unusual because of the stakes involved.

The Justice Department has simply decided we are not going to wait. We may take some legal risks in pushing the envelope on these cases, but we are not going to wait until a crime is committed because we're not going to have another September 11.

BROWN: And the legal risk is they may get to court and a judge may say, You can't do this or a jury will say, We can't figure out what the crime is -- or a jury may not.

TOOBIN: Right. And in this environment, don't held hold your breath for a lot of judges being anxious to throw these cases out or juries being sympathetic.

But even John Walker Lindh -- when that case was brought, he was supposedly committing treason. That was very much a shrinking case. By the time he plead guilty it was a much reduced crime. He did not plead guilty to doing anything against America. So sometimes on the way to court these cases, they can grow, they can become more significant or they can turn out to be something less than meets the eye.

BROWN: In any case (UNINTELLIGIBLE) we have to move on. But it is an extraordinary redefinition of what law enforcement does, and I think that's the point is.

TOOBIN: It's exactly the point.

BROWN: Good to see you.

TOOBIN: Indeed.

BROWN: Have a good weekend.

Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT, a little bit later: a $28 billion court award against the biggest of the big tobacco companies.

Up next, a Milwaukee neighborhood and its group of alleged killers. This is NEWSNIGHT on a Friday from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A few stories from around the country making news. We begin with an update in the Jennifer Short disappearance -- one we wish we didn't have to give. Bone fragments and a skull found in North Carolina have now been identified as the remains of the youngster. Her parent were shot and killed seven weeks ago. She's been missing ever since. No arrests in the case. But police want to interview a man who is now in Canada whose mobile home was recently searched. Police found a map that had the Short's home marked on it. Police say he is one of handful of people they would like to speak with.

Clean up time in the Southeast after Lili. The Strom caused quite a mess. A lot of power outages. But we can report -- finally in one story tonight -- no deaths. And apparently there were only a few injuries, none too terribly serious.

And the closing bell couldn't come soon enough on Wall Street today. The Dow fell more than 2 percent, sixth straight losing week for the stock market.

Now to Milwaukee, and a few details you may have missed involving the young kids charged in the brutal death of a man on in the neighborhood on Sunday. It has been reported that one 14-year-old in the case is the father of a baby girl. He's in the eighth grade and was arrested before at the age of 10 charged with burglary.

Another of the youngsters was convicted of possessing a nine millimeter gun; another is being raised by his sister; and yet another, aged 13, does not know the name of the school he attends, when he attends.

Welcome to a world where it's hard, if not impossible for kids to be kids and maybe not that unthinkable for kids to become killers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEAN WHITE, MILWAUKEE RESIDENT: A lot of them dealing drugs. They really do. I'm not going to lie. It's just - I mean it's a little wild on this block. It's wild on this block. It really is.

BROWN (voice over): From their front porch in a Milwaukee neighborhood so dangerous, some residents call it Little Beirut. Jean and Bob White have seen almost everything.

J. WHITE: You really don't surprise me. I mean, from what I've seen there, you can expect this kind of stuff.

BOB WHITE, MILWAUKEE RESIDENT: A lot of them wants to make their money. A lot of them wants to be about the streets. You see what I'm saying?

BROWN: The Whites say they've seen at least some of the eight boys, who late Sunday night, according to police and prosecutors bludgeoned to death a 36-year-old man named Charlie Young Jr. Police say he was hit with broom handles, a shovel, broken tree limbs, even a 2 X 4. A fight that began over a thrown egg.

Bob White says she wasn't at home that night, but chillingly, police told him, what happened.

B. WHITE: They came up here and got my broom, my shovel and everything.

J. WHITE: We had a shovel right there, too.

B. WHITE: Yes, and they came up came up here and they got my stuff off my porch.

DORIS WILLIAMS, MOTHER OF TWO SUSPECTS: My kids aren't no angels. This I do know. But I know they are well mannered, and I try to teach them the best I know.

BROWN: Doris Williams, who has seven children in all, works overnight at a nursing home. She's the mother of two of the boys in custody. There's no father at home. The first sign of trouble, she says, was when one of her sons came home with a broken tooth.

WILLIAMS: When my son came in the house, he told me, he said, Mama, I was hit in the mouth. And I said by who? He said this man named June (ph). And I said, why did he hit you? He said, I don't know.

BROWN: June was the dead man's street name police say. And records show he'd been convicted four times on various felonies. And Doris Williams said he had a neighborhood reputation as well.

WILLIAMS: They would come in and say that he picks on kids. You know, he picks on smaller kids. Even my daughter, my 18-year-old she said the same thing. The he picks on kids and he threatened them and stuff like that.

BROWN: Police here are still astounded that one of the boys is only 10. He's being held here in the county juvenile detention center along with the other boys who range in age from 13 to 18.

PHIL HENNINGSEN, MILWAUKEE ALDERMAN: It's a terrible lesson for Milwaukee and a terrible incident for Milwaukee. I hope that we can work together to overcome this and to prevent a situation like this from happening again. But it's going to take the work of all sectors of society and the parents have got to wake up.

BROWN: That kind of sentiment has taken over the public debate here, in the wake of the beating death. Parents, community leaders say, must be more responsible. Doris Williams says she is responsible, but there was only so much one person can do.

WILLIAMS: It's really kind of hard, you know. Like I've been raising them from day one by myself. You know? So, it's kind of hard.

J. WHITE: I think that these kids really don't know the extent of what they've done. Ain't no way they can really know what they've done.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: The view from Milwaukee tonight.

Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT some great new political commercials. Well, they're the commercials we'd like to see. In fact, you may be seeing them soon. And up next, the court award of $28 billion in a smoking case. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: Tobacco litigation is a funny thing. On the one hand, jurors know that anyone smart enough to light a match is smart enough to know cigarettes kill. It nearly says that on the pack.

On the other hand the industry itself behaved in such a reprehensible manner for so many years that every now and then the jury sets aside the industry's argument, that everyone knows cigarettes kill, and focuses on the behavior of the industry itself.

In California, today, a jury did just that, and assessed punitive damages against the largest of the cigarette makers that give real meaning to the word punitive, even to an industry with 50 million addicted customers. Here's more from CNN's Allan Dodds Frank.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALLAN DODDS FRANK, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The punitive damage award by the California Superior Court jury was so large the jury forewoman wrote out the number $28 billion, to make sure everyone understood the message. The winning plaintiff, 64-year- old Betty Bullock, a long-time smoker, was too sick with lung cancer to attend a press conference.

MICHAEL PIUZE, BETTY BULLOCKS'S ATTORNEY: When Mrs. Bullock decided to take this case and go forward with it, she knew that she would never, ever see a penny of this. She didn't do it for personal gain. She did it to try to get back at people who lied to her.

DODDS FRANK: Philip Morris said it would appeal.

WILLIAM OHLEMEYER, ASSOCIATE GENERAL COUSEL, PHILIP MORRIS: The law in California, and the law, as the Supreme Court has set it out, is that there has to be a reasonable relationship between compensatory damages and punitive damages. In this case that relationship per this jury's verdict is 33,000 times.

DODDS FRANK: The same jury last week awarded Bullock just $850,000 in compensatory damages. The much larger punitive damages verdict highlights a troubling three-year losing streak on the West Coast for tobacco companies. Still on appeal, the five other cases in California and Oregon involving punitive damage awards of $10 of millions each. A California jury awarded Richard Bocan, a 56-year-old smoker $3 billion in punitive damages last year. But the judge reduced that the to $100 million. And it remains on appeal.

MARY ARONSON, TOBACCO LAW ANALYST, ARONSON WASHINGTON RESEARCH: The California juries, you know, we're the first to see a lot of the negative information that was made public by document release and whistleblowers during the mid '90s. And I think it's just a matter of time before attorneys in other jurisdictions are energized to try these cases elsewhere.

DODDS FRANK (on camera): The tobacco companies insist they'll prevail on appeal. Maybe so, but the verdict on Wall Street Friday was harsh. Philip Morris stocks slid more than 7 percent and lost $6.2 billion in market capitalization. Allan Dodds Frank, CNN Financial News, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: I've known our guests for a while, because for a while we wrote about and reported on tobacco related mattes. Mary Aronson, who you saw briefly in Allan's piece, is an independent analyst on tobacco litigation, sending her work to Wall Street firms for a fee, and to the occasional reporter.

Welcome, Mary. It's good to see you.

ARONSON: Great to see you.

BROWN: All right. There are so many things to ask here. Realistically, will a $28 billion punitive damage award stand?

ARONSON: No. How is that for a pithy answer.

BROWN: That's a good, clean answer, Mary. And it won't because?

ARONSON: Well, it's too big. I really do think that the trial judge himself is likely to lower the award before the rest of the appeals process starts. The judges in the other California cases, which have been multimillion and in one case a $3 billion punitive damage award certainly did that. And I think the same thing is likely to happen here.

How much of it is likely to stand at the very, very end of the appellate process is anyone's guess.

BROWN: The industry will not only appeal the punitive damages, they'll appeal the decision to award any damages at all. Is there anything about this case that is ripe for appeal that you know?

ARONSON: You know, I think this case is somewhat typical of a lot of the other cases we've seen over the years. The reason this case is a little bit different is because it's benefiting from the negative information, the negative documents released during the '90s when you really couldn't get away from all the bad things that the tobacco industry did. Looking at the evening news, looking at the newspapers, almost every week there was another story for about three or four-year period of time.

So, you know, I think this case is one case where the full benefit of those documents is being felt. The jury that was educated during that negative period is sitting in judgment, and the same public, the same juries are going to be sitting in judgment in all the other cases that come forward.

And then finally, this case is the first case to go to trial in California since the repeal of a law that was first enacted about 10, 12 years ago. A lot of people were thinking that when that law was repealed the industry would be protected from any bad behavior from the date of repeal on back, and the Supreme Court in the state recently said no. So this is the first case to be tried since that decision.

BROWN: It is interesting to me, or at least it seems to me -- you tell me I'm wrong, you have before. That you can take the same case, in many cases, or roughly the same case, the same set of facts, the same set of evidence, present it to a jury on the West Coast, and you'll get damages assessed against the industry. And present that case in the Midwest or the East Coast and the jury rules for the companies in about as much time as it takes to smoke a cigarette.

ARONSON: Yeah, you are wrong.

BROWN: You disagree?

ARONSON: Well, remember, there was a case in Florida where there was a class-action suit and in that case there was $145...

BROWN: No, I agree -- no, no, I'm not -- but these are individual smoker cases in places like New York, in Ohio, in Indiana...

ARONSON: Kansas?

BROWN: That have not gone anywhere, that I know of.

ARONSON: There was a case in Kansas several months ago, I'm losing track of time with all the cases we're seeing, in which not only was a fairly hefty award made, around $15 million if my memory serves me, but it was also in a federal case. Until this time, the federal courts were the haven or viewed as the havens for the tobacco industry. The state courts were, you know, the places where all of the locally elected judges were, and it was felt as a safer place for plaintiffs to be. Here was a case in Kansas where $15 million was awarded in a federal court. There was another federal lawsuit that was concluded earlier this week where...

BROWN: Mary, I'm convinced on this point, I'm wrong. I've got less than a minute, I want to try to get two things in.

ARONSON: Oh, never enough time for tobacco.

BROWN: Thank you. Any -- quickly. Any difference in the tactics the industry is using to defend itself these days?

ARONSON: I wasn't at this trial so I can't really answer that. But, you know, I think the individual cases are clearly going to be a problem for the industry for some time to come because of the documents, because of this educated public that I spoke about. Document that were released about the industry's bad behavior, and there are plenty of attorneys who are willing to bring these suites now that they see they can be won.

BROWN: Mary, good to see you. Thanks for your time tonight.

ARONSON: Thank you.

BROWN: Mary Aronson, tobacco analyst. Ahead on NEWSNIGHT some amazing claims made in political commercials. It's a lovely spot. Coming up at the end of the program.

And up next, the debate on Iraq begins on Capitol Hill. I'm a go (ph).

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Travel plans for the United Nations Chief Weapons Inspector Hans Blix, are still up in the air where a trip to Baghdad is concerned. Mr. Blix, he's the one in the green tie, there, did make the trip to Washington today to meet with the secretary of State. The State Department spokesman said that that Secretary Powell urged Hans Blix not to take no for an answer, from the Iraqis, whenever it is that he and his team go looking for weapons of mass destruction.

Diplomacy goes on, so does the debate in the U.S. Senate. Political pundits expect that eventually the White House will get a resolution authorizing military force against Iraq under some circumstances. But there is still some opposition.

And the Senate being the Senate, the debate often comes with a lot of high-minded flourish. Here today an exchange between Senator John Warner, the ranking Republican on the Armed Services Committee and Senator Robert Byrd, the senior Democrat in the Senate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN WARNER (R-VA), ARMED SERVICES CMTE.: Is there a word in this resolution, and I hold myself responsible for the words in this resolution, is there any word, is there any sentence, is there any paragraph that exceeds the authority given to the president of the United States in the Constitution which you love and defend so dearly?

SEN. ROBERT BYRD (D), WEST VIRGINIA: Absolutely. Absolutely. This whole piece of -- this great expenditure of paper is nothing more than a blank check given to the president of the United States to use the forces of this country, the military forces, in whatever way he determines, whenever he determines?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Senator Byrd and Senator Warner, and then me for some reason in the middle of it.

President Bush expected to deliver a speech to the country Monday 8 o'clock in the evening Eastern Time. The president will be in Cincinnati to talk about Iraq and the threat it poses to the United States. We will carry that speech live. Again that's 8 o'clock Monday night here on CNN.

Quick look at some of the other stories making news around the world today. In Gaza today, thousands of Palestinians took to the streets to protest a new American law that recognizes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. President Bush signed the law, even though he opposes that provision of it. White House says American policy in the matter of Israel's capital has not actually changed, law or no law. None of which stopped today's protest.

In Belfast, Northern Ireland police raided the offices Shin Fein (ph), of the political wing of the Irish Republican Army, making arrests and seizing documents and computer discs. Police were investigating the activities of Republican terrorists.

And this is 43-year-old Terry Watson after being plucked by the Coast Guard off a small sailboat off the coast of North Carolina. He was delusional and emaciated at the time. So, his story still isn't precisely clear, but it seems Mr. Watson may have been adrift in the Atlantic since late July. Officials say he eventually should be OK.

Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT, truth in advertising, political advertising. Short break, right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Remember that clever little tongue in cheek proposal with which we began the program? Do away with campaigns and let elections be decided by the courts? That would make political commercials the thing of the past, which in turn, would deprive CNN's Political Analyst Jeff Greenfield from some very good material.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST (on camera): Promise, large promise, is the soul of advertising Samuel Johnson once wrote. When it comes to political ads from incumbents, the promise of great things done is very large indeed. Listen to enough of these ads and you think they were all running for re-election as governor of Eden.

ANNOUNCER: No governor has done more than our governor, George Pataki. Cleaner air and water. More open space. Healthcare for children.

FEMALE CANDIDATE: I also fought for tighter accounting rules and prison time for CEOs who commit fraud.

ANNOUNCER: He gave us the $500 per child tax credit and the Social Security Benefits Guarantee Act.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Having Tim Johnson on the appropriations committee meant for the Watertown School District a grant of $220,000.

ANNOUNCER: The finance committee chairman who got millions for Montana highways, creating 11,000 jobs.

GREENFIELD: All pretty standard stuff, you'd agree. But there's one incumbent senator who has, we think, broken bold, new ground with one of his claims.

WAYN ALLARD: It's going to be a close race.

GREENFIELD: The incumbent, Colorado Senator Wayne Allard, locked in a tough re-election fight with Tom Strickland. In a mailing to senior citizens the Allard campaign claims "Social Security benefits for Colorado seniors have increased every year Wayne Allard has served Colorado in the U.S. Senate."

Now, that claim is literally true. Of course, benefits have increased for all seniors, not just those in Colorado because those cost of living increases were long ago locked into the law. Those benefits would have gone up even if Senator Allard had never set foot in the U.S. Senate.

When "The Rocky Mountain News" pointed this out to the campaign manager his response was, and we're quoting here, "OK, but what's your point?"

Well, maybe the Allard campaign is on to something here. We think it opens up whole new vistas of opportunity for hard-pressed incumbents. For instance, maybe Minnesota's Paul Wellstone could argue that:

ANNOUNCER: In the 2 years that Wellstone has been our senator, Minnesota has never been hit by a category five hurricane.

GREENFEILD: Or perhaps, Maine's Susan Collins could claim that:

ANNOUNCER: The gross domestic product has increased by $2.269 trillion during her years in office.

GREENFIELD: And why doesn't California Governor Gray Davis argue that:

ANNOUNCER: Not one, not two, but three California baseball teams made the postseason even before he finished his first team.

GREENFIELD: In fact it's too bad that South Carolina's Strom Thurmond has decided at age 100 not to run again for the U.S. Senate. Do you realize how much faster automobiles go ever since Strom first got into the Senate?

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Have a great weekend. We'll see you on Monday. Good night from all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

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