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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Communication Not Easy Between Police, Sniper; How Did Sniper, Police Enter Dialogue?

Aired October 21, 2002 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening, again, everyone.
In the two weeks since this horrible sniper business began, there have been scary days and very sad days. There was one hopeful day and then there was today, a day that can only be described as a confusing day. The minimum standard for the program tonight is simple: make sense of it all.

The events themselves have been very confused since the shooting on Saturday night. Not only the longer than usual wait to see if the shooting was related, but then there were the notes, the calls, the two men taken into custody and the news conferences and the messages the police sent out to the sniper or whoever.

It has seemed like there have been more facts in the last 24 hours than in the whole of the last two weeks. We get lots of notes from people who say they believe we're spending too much time on the story. We see far more, far more from people who do not feel that way at all. Tonight we'll hear from someone certain that we are over- covering, and while we are somewhat embarrassed to take issue with Walter Cronkite, we do so gently here.

Not everyone watches all the time. Some people tune CNN on when they wake up and keep it on all day and all night, and we have a special affection for them. But we don't program for them necessarily. Most people tune in and tune out a little here and a little there, and for them it is not repetitious, it is new. And while we'd like to talk them into joining that other group, the smaller group who never turns the dial, we accept that's probably not going to happen. So we'll keep reporting what we know.

Tonight, we're going to take it very slowly, so that at the end of the night the timelines are clear, the events make sense, as much as they can, and like Mr. Cronkite, we can't wait for the day when we don't have to report this anymore.

We begin once again in the suburbs of Washington. Kathleen Koch in Montgomery County, Maryland. Kathleen, a headline from you, please.

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, police today speaking in code that only a killer understands, and the communication has not been easy.

BROWN: Kathleen, that is a part of the story you'll be dealing with.

The latest now on the investigation. Jeanne Meserve has been working tonight, developing some new information on the calls and the notes. Jeanne, a headline from you.

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, how did the sniper and the police enter a dialogue? We'll have some of the specifics about how it started and what has happened since -- Aaron.

BROWN: Thank you, Jeanne.

And on to a community that thought it might be out of reach of the sniper. Michael Okwu tonight on the status of the latest victim, this one in the Richmond, Virginia, area. Michael, a headline from you tonight.

MICHAEL OKWU, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the sniper's 12th victim is battling for his life in stable, but critical condition. Prognosis hopeful, but doctors say that he has a very long, arduous journey ahead -- Aaron.

BROWN: Michael, thank you. Back with all of you coming up shortly.

Also on the program tonight, we'll go to the Middle East. A suicide bombing killed more than a dozen Israelis today, where the only constant seems to be violence and bloodshed on both sides.

And my talk today with two legends playing two other legends from centuries ago, Walter Cronkite and Warren Buffett, starring as two of the founding fathers, a cartoon for kids about the American revolution. We'll talk about the series, and we'll talk about other areas of their expertise. News and money with Mr. Cronkite and Mr. Buffett.

All of that in the hour ahead.

We begin with an exhausting day in the hunt for the sniper. It began with an arrest and the hope that perhaps this would be it. But at the end of the day the two men taken into custody had nothing to do with the killings at all. The sniper is still out there, having found a new locality to terrorize.

That part is simple. The rest gets tricky. There was a note, perhaps a demand for money. There were phone calls. There was a plea for another. There were all sorts of moving parts today, enough so that you might forget that a man in a Richmond hospital is fighting for his life. Our coverage begins now with CNN's Kathleen Koch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KOCH (voice-over): It is a path fraught with problems, communicating with a killer. Police for a second time in one day trying to reach out to the sniper who shot 12 people.

CHIEF CHARLES MOOSE, MONTGOMERY COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT: The person you called could not hear everything that you said. The audio was unclear, and we want to get it right. Call us back so that we can clearly understand.

KOCH: That, as miles south in Richmond, Virginia, police moved in on a man at a phone booth in a white van hoping to catch the killer. Instead, they apprehended two undocumented workers, apparently in the wrong place at the wrong time. Chief Moose in an earlier message had implied police were working to keep the dialogue open.

MOOSE: We are going to respond to a message that we have received. We will respond later. We are preparing our response at this time.

KOCH: The words, just as carefully parsed as they were Sunday night, when Moose first sent a message through the media. That in response to a note found in the woods behind the latest shooting site at the Ponderosa restaurant in Ashland, Virginia. So when and whether police speak has become a minute-to-minute guessing game.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I hope that everyone will appreciate that we are at a very sensitive stage of this investigation, and therefore, it is critical that we determine when it is appropriate to speak, who speaks, and what they say.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KOCH: So for now, the police continue using the media as a virtual conduit to the killer. No word yet on whether or not he or they have called back, have responded to police Chief Moose's call. And police Chief Moose would not say personally whether or not he is more optimistic or encouraged now that this dialogue has been opened -- Aaron.

BROWN: Just one quick one, I think, tonight. As I was watching the chief this afternoon making this plea for another call, it seemed to me he was reading exactly what he wanted to say. The impression I got is just that, is that they had thought long and hard about each word they were going to use in that statement.

KOCH: Well, Aaron, you know his message earlier this morning was that they were preparing a response to what the killer or killers had given them. So perhaps this indeed was the response. Though we were expecting somewhat more. This very carefully worded answer, or request to please call back.

But yes, every single word is very carefully chosen, very carefully phrased. To have the impact, the desired impact on the caller.

BROWN: And not to make the problem worse. Kathleen, thank you. Kathleen Koch has had a long day out in Montgomery County.

Some of the details are emerging now from the note found near the scene of the latest shooting. A lot of intriguing ones that may help us better understand what police have been saying, why they have been saying it. Jeanne Meserve is in Washington tonight. She's been working that part of the story. Jeanne, why don't you go ahead and begin, and we'll see where it leads us.

MESERVE: OK, Aaron. We've heard only one side of the conversation between the sniper and the police. Now some of the details on what the sniper is saying and how the communications began. As you heard Kathleen say, officials have told CNN that hours after the Ashland, Virginia shooting a call came in instructing the police where to find a letter.

As we know, it was found behind the Ponderosa steakhouse, where the shooting took place. In the letter these officials tell us was a phone number. Police were to call the sniper at that number. These officials say that the phone number was for a residence and police surmised that the sniper might have inadvertently transposed some numbers.

So they played a bit with the numbers, and when they switched the last two it was the number for a business, which seemed a more likely point of contact. Officials had both of those numbers rerouted to the task force headquarters, and then Chief Moose came before the cameras saying, you gave you us a telephone number, we want to talk to you, call us at the number you provided.

According to sources, investigators believe the sniper called on Monday morning using some kind of mechanism to disguise his voice. And then, at about 4:15 this afternoon Chief Moose came before the cameras again to say the person you called could not hear everything you said, the audio was unclear, call us back. No word from our sources on whether the sniper has responded with another call.

Sources tell CNN the note found behind at the Ponderosa contains specific demands, including hints of demands for money and a timeline for officials to act on his desires.

If they fail to act, he threatened another attack. As a result, I'm told, there is heavy commitment of law enforcement resources in the greater Richmond area tonight, including a robust federal presence. And tomorrow ten public school districts in the metro Richmond area have decided to cancel classes -- Aaron.

BROWN: OK. I've been writing down as you've been talking. This first phone call came to whom? Do we know?

MESERVE: There has been -- there's conflicting information on this. I will tell you that the source who I consider most reliable indicated to me that that call came in to the FBI tip line.

BROWN: Is that different from the task force tip line?

MESERVE: No. I'm referring to -- the task force tip line is answered by the FBI at FBI headquarters.

BROWN: Got it. And they have determined that this is a question that neither the business or the residence in this transposed phone number that you were dealing with, that neither the residence nor the business have anything to do with this?

MESERVE: I don't know if that's been clarified or not. I know that when they looked at a residence phone number it seemed unlikely to them. They played with the numbers, came up with this business. That looked more likely.

We don't know why that looked more likely to them. But apparently, the sniper must have known what number they were dealing with because they received a subsequent communication from him.

BROWN: And just one more on the letter, if I may. You've said the letter contains specific demands and hinted at money.

MESERVE: Right.

BROWN: So I took from that two different ideas coming out of that note. Do we know -- set the money aside. That's pretty -- that part we all get. Do we have any idea what the specific demands were?

MESERVE: I do not know what the other demands are. It was demands, plural. When my sources spoke to me, we have heard about the hints of money from Kelli Arena's sources. We do not know what the other demands are.

BROWN: And just because -- I know where this is going, but I'll ask it anyway. And apologize for doing so, actually. We have no idea the amount of the money, do we?

MESERVE: No.

BROWN: OK. Thank you. This is what reporters do, is they try and put these pieces together. And you've done a terrific job tonight, Jeanne. Thank you.

MESERVE: A lot of pieces to put together, Aaron.

BROWN: There are. And we'll give you some time to work on some of them and come back to you later on in the program and try to sort through the rest. Thank you. Jeanne Meserve working hard tonight.

More now on the latest victim. Doctors used the word "insult" to describe an injury or trauma to the body. A .223 caliber bullet is just that, an insult. It desecrates whatever it touches and traumatizes the rest. This is the man who sends it on his way is doing to entire communities. The victim's story now from CNN's Michael Okwu.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

OKWU (voice-over): The 12th victim, a 37-year-old man, is only the third who wasn't killed by the sniper's signature single shot. He is in stable but critical condition, having survived two operations, just the start of what doctors say will be several surgeries he will need.

DR. RAO IVATURY, MEDICAL COLLEGE OF VIRGINIA: He is conscious. He's responding to his wife's voice. He's moving all the extremities. His vital signs have remained very stable. And all his numbers are coming back to normal.

So he's in a stable but critical condition. There is still a long way to go. We expect a lot of complications because of all the injuries he has received.

OKWU: The gunshot echoed across a busy corridor of fast food restaurants and motels Saturday night in Ashland, Virginia. Again, it happened just off I-95, but this time, 70 miles outside of Washington, D.C. Now the furthest targeted point south of the nation's capital.

The man, who authorities have not identified, was struck in the parking lot of a Ponderosa restaurant. Authorities believe the shot was fired from this adjacent wooded area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And as they were leaving after eating their meal, walking across the lot, his wife heard what she thought was a backfire of an automobile, and about that time her husband declared that he had been shot and went to his knees.

OKWU: Doctors say the bullet had an explosive effect on the victim's organs. To save his life, they removed his spleen and parts of his stomach and pancreas. He lost almost five liters of blood. Fragments of the bullet still remain inside. A hospital official read a statement from the victim's wife.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "The hospital has taken care of all of our needs. So there is no need to send anything other than continued prayer."

Please pray also for the attacker and that no one else is hurt.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

OKWU: Highly unfortunate timing for this couple. They happen to be from out of state and were driving on the interstate when they decided to take a break and perhaps catch a little food at the Ponderosa restaurant when all of this happened. Hospital officials say that just recently the victim started opening his eyes but he's still not in the position of being able to talk yet, Aaron. But they're very, very quick to add that he's very, very lucky to be alive -- Aaron.

BROWN: Michael, thank you. Our prayers are with him and his family tonight. Go to the Web page for the town of Ashland, Virginia, and you'll see a banner that reads, "Welcome to the center of the universe." Residents call it that, even though they know it isn't, and they're probably glad it's not. This is a town that prides itself on its history, its schools, and the feeling of safety and community that people who live here enjoy, or at least did enjoy.

Tomorrow, kids in Ashland won't be going to school for the second straight day because the sniper's still out there. And, at least for now, Ashland is the center of the universe. Here's CNN's Kevin Sites.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KEVIN SITES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Normally, sixth grader James Tuck (ph) would be in school right now, not doing flips on the back yard trampoline. But this is no ordinary Monday in Ashland, Virginia. Because of the recent shootings, 200 schools in four area school districts closed. More than 150,000 kids stayed home.

Judy Tuck (ph) is happy to have her kids home and safe. She was worried there could be more violence.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's a possibility that, you know, he had hit so many times in one area, that maybe Ashland was, you know, could be hit again, a second time.

SITES: Other parents believe the worst is over.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's so unusual, you don't see this type of stuff. So I can't imagine, you know, lightning would strike twice type of situation.

SITES: Angie Miller (ph) enjoyed the bonus day with her children, but not the way she got it. An innocent man gunned down in her town.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, it was pretty scary. You know, the helicopters in the back yards. And yeah, it was pretty scary.

SITES (on camera): For hundreds of schools around the area the scene is the same: darkened classrooms, empty playgrounds, empty school buses. So when will things get back to normal for the kids here? It may be a while. According to Hanover public school officials, until further notice, all outside activities will be suspended.

ALLAN FUNK, ASHLAND PARENT: I don't think keeping them out of school is going to do any good. Like I say, I think it's just going to create more fear.

SITES (voice-over): And fear is impacting more than just the schools here. Many businesses stayed closed today, while others say they probably should have.

(on camera): On a Monday, how many customers do you usually have in here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Usually about 30 or 40 customers.

SITES: How many are in here now?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right now? Two.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Today specifically we usually by this time of day have done 20 to 25 tanners, and we've done three to four today already. SITES (voice-over): Ashland is literally split in two, east and west, by railroad tracks. In some ways the recent violence here has roared through the heart of the city like a freight train. Those who live here are eager to put it past them, and there are signs that may already be happening. While so many schools and shops were closed here today, Ponderosa reopened for business.

Kevin Sites, CNN, Ashland, Virginia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: While the latest victim struggles to survive, another victim, the one killed a week ago tonight, was laid to rest. Linda Franklin was supposed to be unpacking in her new home today along with her husband. Instead, hundreds of people turned out in Arlington, Virginia to mourn the 47-year-old FBI analyst, the mother of two, a breast cancer survivor.

She was killed last Monday outside a Home Depot in Falls Church, Virginia, while loading packages with her husband. Her father described her as a rambunctious kid fond of little pranks. "That was just Linda having fun," he said. Linda Franklin, buried today, was about to become a grandmother.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll get some more insight into the sniper investigation from former FBI deputy director Weldon Kennedy. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We said at the beginning of the program that the day to us at least seemed somewhat confusing. It's not only the sequence of events and the notes, the calls and the rest, but it's also giving some meaning to them. So we're particularly pleased to have Weldon Kennedy with us tonight. He's a former deputy director of the FBI, a key player in the Oklahoma City investigation. And oh, if this one had only ended so quickly.

WELDON KENNEDY, FMR. DEPUTY DIRECTOR, FBI: Absolutely.

BROWN: We were talking before, and I said now we've got these notes and what do they tell you, and the first thing you said is if they're legit.

KENNEDY: Yes, because we can only guess at this point. We, the public, or the general public, don't really know what's going on inside the investigation. But we've already seen one person step forward who furnished very false information to the investigators.

BROWN: We -- in just watching the police chief today and the way he was talking, the things he said, does that lead you to believe that they believe they're legit?

KENNEDY: And they have to operate as if it is legit because it very well may be. But obviously, he was in whatever programmatic way he had been directed, was trying to communicate with this individual. BROWN: And so you got the same impression that I did, that they had picked every word in that statement...

KENNEDY: Very carefully.

BROWN: That they'd run it by the forensic psychiatrists and the whole group to figure out what words will draw him in and not upset him?

KENNEDY: Or alienate him or make him angry or have him react in some very undesirable way.

BROWN: Does the fact that this person, assuming now legitimacy, that the person asked for money, does that change in any sense how you view what they are trying to deal with?

KENNEDY: Not really. But it throws an entirely new dimension to this scenario. Unless that is some sort of a red herring. And that would be the way I believe that I would be approaching it at this point. Even a red herring, even if it's a legitimate communication from this individual.

BROWN: That he is toying with them?

KENNEDY: Well, not necessarily toying, but he's throwing out a false clue, or a false lead in essence.

BROWN: And inviting them to waste plenty of time on something that's not going anywhere?

KENNEDY: Possibly, yes.

BROWN: I said to you earlier that in all the time I covered cop stories that the one thing I came to believe is that by and large criminals are stupid. In this case you've got someone who I don't think anyone actually believes that.

KENNEDY: That he's stupid? No. But they are human beings still, in spite of all the horrific crimes that have been committed. And sooner or later, potentially a mistake can and possibly will be made.

BROWN: And the mistake can be tiny.

KENNEDY: Yes.

BROWN: And do you at some level believe the mistake has been made but not yet recognized?

KENNEDY: That's entirely possible. It may be already in the system. Some person may have already called in and said, I believe that this person could possibly be so and so, by name even, and that maybe is even already in the system and it has not been surfaced yet.

BROWN: We were talking about McVeigh, which was your case. And the thing that led to this very quick capture of McVeigh was that it was a traffic violation, a moving violation. What led to the moving violation is really the story.

KENNEDY: Yes. McVeigh had left a vehicle parked behind a building, YMCA building, adjacent to, or near to the Murrah Building. He left it there over the weekend, and he put a note on the dashboard, said "Do not tow, dead battery" attempting to hope that no one would think the car had been abandoned and just tow it away so he that would still have an escape vehicle when he got there.

And indeed he did. And he drove away in that escaped vehicle, and 60 minutes later Trooper Hanger (ph) of the Oklahoma highway patrol stopped him for one reason. No license plate on the rear of his vehicle.

BROWN: And somebody likely, very possibly, stole the license plate.

KENNEDY: That's my personal theory, because it was in an area of the city where that possibly could have happened.

BROWN: And the lesson in that is that good police work is a combination of very disciplined stuff and a little bit of luck?

KENNEDY: Yes, Aaron. You're correct.

BROWN: And so far they have not had the little bit of luck?

KENNEDY: Not so far apparently.

BROWN: It's nice to see you again.

KENNEDY: Thank you. Good to be with you.

BROWN: I know you'll understand when I say I hope I don't see you again for a while.

KENNEDY: True. Absolutely. Thanks.

BROWN: Weldon Kennedy.

A few other quick stories to fit in tonight, beginning with the U.S. Supreme Court and the death penalty before the court again. The court decided not to hear two capital murder cases today. One involved a man facing the death penalty for a murder he committed when he was 17 years old, and the other for a man who spent nearly three decades on death row waiting to die.

The court split along traditional lines, as it does in death penalty cases. Four more liberal judges saying the court should continue re-examining issues surrounding the death penalty. Last year, you'll recall, the court banned executions of those who are considered mentally retarded.

Upstate New York next, and the war on terror. Six men from the suburb of Boston indicted today on charges of supporting terrorism. They had been arrested before the indictment came down from the grand jury today. Charges they trained in an al Qaeda camp in Afghanistan. Arraignment formally set for tomorrow. The men face up to 15 years in prison should they be convicted.

(UNINTELLIGIBLE) reported to federal prison today. Mr. Kennedy, you probably never imagined you'd see this. Former Louisiana Governor Ed Edwards began serving a ten-year sentence for extorting money from those applying for riverboat casino licenses. This is a guy who dodged more bullets than Deringer (ph). The former governor spent his final day as a free man walking his dog and eating a hamburger at his favorite Louisiana diner.

And an update on the insider trading scandal involving Martha Stewart. Enforcement staff at the Securities and Exchange Commission has told Ms. Stewart that they'll recommend civil charges be filed against her. What those charges would be are not precisely clear tonight. Investigators are looking into whether she had an inside tip when she dumped shares of Imclone late last year, just before the stock plunged. These are civil violations. Criminal violations could come as well, but they haven't yet.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, violence again in the Middle East.

Also, later in the program, we'll update the investigation in the sniper case. A long way to go yet tonight. This is NEWSNIGHT on a Monday from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: In a minute, we'll tell you about a discovery that could be the oldest link between the Jesus of the bible and Jesus the man. That's the wonder of the Middle East.

But first, we have to get through the continuing horror of the Middle East. A suicide bombing this morning on the road between Tel Aviv and Haifa, which, of course, followed Israeli actions on the West Bank and Gaza, which followed other suicide bombings, which followed -- who remembers exactly what?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): There was a sick and sad familiarity about the scene. The names and numbers of the dead different, but everything else, like so many other attacks over so many years.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know that a car loaded with explosives hit the bus from behind while it was on its way to Hadera, toward Tel Aviv. And of course, the hit when the car exploded, this caused immediately the fire on the bus, and most of the casualties.

BROWN: Israeli authorities later said the vehicle was a small SUV packed with about 250 pounds of explosives. Fourteen people, at least some of them soldiers, died inside the bus. About 45 were injured.

The two suicide bombers inside the vehicle were also killed. The response from the Israeli government was also familiar.

RA'AAN GISSIN, ISRAELI GOVERNMENT SPOKESMAN: All the too familiar views of carnage and death and terrorist attacks. And it comes really at a time when we are trying so diligently to charter a road map towards peace. While the Palestinian terrorist organization and part of the Palestinian authority are chartering only a blood path.

BROWN: And familiar, too, was the response from Yasser Arafat.

YASSER ARAFAT, PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY: We are condemning completely these terrorist activities against civilians to be civilian -- Israeli civilians or Palestinian civilians.

BROWN: But as always is the case, that was rejected amid a new charge that Palestinian groups have now banded together to wage a greater terror campaign. No evidence to support that charge by the Israeli government was offered.

Like all things in the Middle East, nothing happens in isolation. Over the weekend Israeli troops moved against a band of Jewish settlers near Nablus. This particular ultra right-wing group had set up an illegal settlement in Palestinian territory. Some of the group's members had launched what authorities said was unprovoked attacks against Palestinian farmers in the West Bank just a day earlier. Something Palestinians claim has been going on for weeks.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Israel today.

A few other stories from around the world before we go to break. President Bush said today he is hopeful the world can persuade North Korea to give up its nuclear weapons program. The tone at the White House, one of calm concern. Pretty clear the administration is trying to keep this low-key. Mr. Bush says he'll ask China's president for additional help in pressuring North Korea when the two meet later this week.

In Iraq the prisons are mostly empty, mostly. Saddam Hussein granting a blanket amnesty over the weekend. A thank you, he said, for his election victory. There are questions. Amnesty International wants to know how many political prisoners remain behind bars and what happened to the thousands of other people who simply disappeared after the Gulf War.

And in Jerusalem a discovery of biblical proportions. A paper published today in a prestigious archaeological journal says the writing on that burial box probably refers to Jesus of Nazareth. The box bears an inscription. The box bears an inscription when translated it reads "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus." If true, it would be the oldest and therefore the closest historical link to Jesus Christ.

A little bit later on NEWSNIGHT we'll talk with Warren Buffet and Walter Cronkite about money, news, and American history.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, two American icons, Warren Buffett and Walter Cronkite, talk about some earlier American icons.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The episode is called "We The People" and it's chock full of context on the writing of the U.S. Constitution, compromise on the slavery issue, the inauguration of the first president, George Washington.

This isn't the History Channel or some documentary on late-night C-SPAN. It's a cartoon called "Liberty's Kids," trying to teach children about the American Revolution.

And today we had a chance to speak with two members of an extraordinary cast. You will no doubt recognize the voice of Benjamin Franklin, played by Walter Cronkite. And maybe the investment philosophy of the multi-billionaire who plays James Madison, an unassuming guy from Omaha named Warren Buffett.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WARREN BUFFETT, AS JAMES MADISON: I believe in free press. But to succeed in our goals each delegate must know he can change his mind without public embarrassment. Besides, I'll keep my own notes for the historians.

WALTER CRONKITE, AS BENJAMIN FRANKLIN: I'm sorry, but James Madison is right. The delegates need to be left alone to do their work. But I know if I tell you what's happening you'd never write anything you shouldn't.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Not in a million years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Benjamin Franklin probably did sound like Walter Cronkite.

Earlier today I met with Mr. Cronkite and Mr. Buffett to talk about "Liberty's Kids" and how media have handled the sniper and how the '90s will be remembered in terms of corporate America. All of that and more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Were you happy doing Madison? Was there anything -- did you know much about Madison before?

BUFFETT: I boned up a little bit. I got out my "World Book" and did a little reading. So a I'm better versed on Madison now than before.

BROWN: Do you like him now more than before?

BUFFETT: I like most of the characters. But it's true. When you see the contribution that a relatively -- a handful of people made to a -- to this country and what they created, the document they created in the Constitution, it's mind blowing. I mean, it is a -- it is an instrument that has taken this country from 3 million people largely on -- in farming to the greatest country in the world. And it's had to be modified very little over that time.

BROWN: I think that's the remarkable thing about it, isn't it? Is that you look at all of the changes in 200 years of history, all of the changes in society over that time, the changes in the population, all of that. And with just a little tweaking here and there the document is incredibly alive.

BUFFETT: Yes, just take the first ten Amendments. I mean, you know, Walter Cronkite is a product, you know, of the First Amendment. In a state-controlled communications system who knows what would have happened?

It's caused the best -- the cream to rise to the top in many areas of America. And that's why that little struggling country of 3 million, you know, is the world leader by a huge margin.

And it's not because we're smarter than the rest of the world. It's not because we're physically different. It's not because our natural resources are that much superior to other civilizations. But that framework that was set at that time is incredible wisdom, has produced an incredible country.

CRONKITE: Clearly, freedom of the press is a foundation of any democracy. You can't call it nation or democracy if it doesn't have freedom of press. And where freedom of press is in any way restricted, that diminishes the democracy.

And I think we in our country understand freedom of press to the degree that we judge other countries on how free their press is.

BROWN: When you watch, for example, the kinds of wall-to-wall, non-stop coverage of something like the sniper thing that's going on outside Washington, where there's honestly, as you know, very few facts and certainly very little new, and we can still make 24 hours out of it, how do you see that? Is that overkill?

CRONKITE: Yes. Of course, one of the problems is that the networks are so heavily focused on Washington and Washington, quite obviously, was engrossed with this thing. I mean, you didn't know whether walking on the street you were going to be the next victim or not.

And since Washington was engrossed, they overplayed it nationally. I don't think the national audience needed to know all that was carried hour after hour on the national networks about the sniper attacks. It's a very important story, important for various reasons, but just besides being sensational, it's a story about our times and gun control again is brought up now and is a serious discussion again across the country, which is important, I think, to our country and our future.

It had the potential of being a terrorist operation. So it was a bigger story than it might have been just with a few shootings. But I do think that it was overdone.

BROWN: Since we started talking about history, how do you think history will record the '90s in your universe, the universe of business and money?

BUFFETT: Well, I think they'll regard the late '90s as something of a mass hallucination that people suspended disbelief and gave up quantifying the value of businesses and did a great many foolish things and because they were happy during that period they overlooked a lot of behavior that now is being examined more carefully and doesn't reflect well on certain perpetrators.

BROWN: Well, there's actually two things there. I mean, there's the business, ethical part of it, which I assume angers you.

BUFFETT: It angered me at the time, even. I mean, what happens is that I think when you get that kind of a -- kind of a mass financial party going on, an anything-goes philosophy tends to spread. And some of the most egregious things are really not what the crooks did but how, in effect the norms slipped.

I mean, I say it was a little bit like too many CEO followed the career path of Mae West, who said, you know, I was Snow White but I drifted. Well, too many CEOs drifted during that period. It was easy to do because there were no checks on it.

I mean, if the stock went up, everything else was OK. And we're past that period now. But it was some party.

BROWN: And on just the other side of that, there's the CEO side of that, and then there's the rest of us, I suppose, who didn't read very carefully your annual report and thought there was easy money to be made if only we threw the dart reasonably close to the center.

BUFFETT: Well, the interesting thing is if you just invest in American business over the decades, you do fine. I mean, you can -- you know, the Dow started in the 1900s at 66 and it ended at 11,000.

You'd think, Well, how can you avoid doing well in a period like that? But people managed to because, you know, they, you know, they get very greedy and they think they should make a lot more money than just sort of following the track of American business.

American business has done fine for investors over time. But a lot of times investors have shot themselves in the foot. And they did in the late '90s.

BROWN: Thank you all.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Warren Buffett and Walter Cronkite. It was an afternoon. Next on NEWSNIGHT we'll update the sniper investigation. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, we said at the outset the goal tonight of the program was fairly simple: take a confusing set of events over the last 24 hours or so and make them clear and try and lay out a simple timeline.

We've made some progress in that regard. We'll try and make some more now. Kelli Arena covers the justice department for us. Jeanne Meserve, who you saw earlier, has been working her police sources and others. Both join us now for a few of the back details on today's developments.

Good to see you both. I want to start with something that Weldon Kennedy brought up, which is this question of whether or not these communications, the phone calls and the note, in fact come from the sniper. The thinking, Kelli, is what and why?

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Sources that I've spoken to, Aaron, do -- are working on the presumption that the note is legitimate. At first, sources told us that initially it did not look like the handwriting was the same handwriting as was found on the Tarot card after the shooting in Bowie, Maryland. That, as we know, is being analyzed.

But sources say that there were certain similarities between the note and the Tarot card which have not been divulged publicly, but that investigators are aware of that make them think that this is coming from the same person. So that it is a legitimate communication from the sniper.

BROWN: Is there in these notes, are they suggesting to you that there's been some attempt to disguise the handwriting?

ARENA: Not sure, Aaron. Like I said, initially, it did not look the same, but I was told that that analysis is going deeper now to find out if there is anything that can be drawn in terms of whether this was written by the same person and just somebody trying to change it. I mean, there are ways that a good handwriting analyst can determine whether or not the same person wrote it even if someone tries to change their handwriting.

So that is being done at the FBI lab, along with your usual profiling and DNA analysis as well.

BROWN: Right. And that would include what kind of paper it was written on, I assume. And just, this may sound obvious to everyone, but me, but it was handwritten, it wasn't typed out. It wasn't on the computer.

ARENA: That's right. Handwritten, just like the Tarot card was.

BROWN: OK. Jeanne, on the phone calls, there were two. The call that -- the call that goes to the tip line, impossible to trace where that came from?

MESERVE: Actually, Kelli just made a motion as if she has some hard and fast information on this. I'm going to defer to her.

BROWN: That's fine. We work together here. Kelli, go ahead.

MESERVE: We certainly do. Let me tell you.

ARENA: It's been a tag team today. The -- what we've reported, Aaron, is that the call that initially came in to the FBI tip line was, in fact, traced to an address in Richmond, Virginia, which is what initially brought investigators, all those federal agents that you saw this morning swarming on that van this morning, to make those arrests of the two individuals it turned out not to have any connection to this case.

But it was that first call that came in on the tip line that was traced to an address, and then that whole area was canvassed by local, state, and federal agents.

MESERVE: And I was told, Aaron, that that call came in in the early hours of Sunday morning, which would have been not too long after that Ashland shooting.

BROWN: OK. Here's -- one of you needs to now unconfuse me, if you will. The note has a phone number on it. I gather now that the phone number, which we've been through maybe had transposed numbers, maybe did not, whatever. In any case, that's a different line, I gather, than the line they traced off the tip line phone. Is that right?

MESERVE: That's right. And the sniper said, Call, according to our sources, said, Call me at this number.

But as I told you earlier there, was a little confusion when they looked at the number because it went to a residence which appeared apparently to have no relationship at all to this case.

So then they started playing a bit with the numbers, figuring out if he had unintentionally transposed something, and they finally deduced that he may have and felt that it was the number for a business.

BROWN: And very quickly, as the two of you have been comparing notes today, you've both been working the phones pretty hard, are your sources generally telling you the same things?

ARENA: Yes.

BROWN: They're in agreement?

ARENA: Well, they are eventually in agreement when we bring it to you, Aaron, and to our viewers. No, I have to tell you, I mean, the one thing that I have found is that you get some really strong indications. For example...

MESERVE: Today, certainly.

ARENA: ... when those two individuals were taken into custody, there was a lot of optimism and some confidence that perhaps this had been a major breakthrough in this case. And then all of a sudden you started to get people backing off. So once you get a consensus is when we go to air with information.

MESERVE: But we both were getting that build-up, Oh, wow, this is something hot. And then we both were getting the signal, No, bring it down.

BROWN: Jeanne, Kelli, you guys have been terrific today. Thank you both. Appreciate it very much.

And we'll wrap it up for the night with one different way to look at all of this in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Finally, from us tonight, wishes that can't come true. You know what children do when they're in a bad spot, they fantasize a way out, they call on an imaginary friend or superhero or some other powerful make-believe figure who isn't bound by the laws of gravity or possibility or logic or any of that stuff.

Truth is children aren't the only ones who do that. Grown-ups, even reporters, daydream sometimes about waking up to find a terrible problem magically solved the way it might be, say, in a movie. Well, the way it was, in fact, solved in a particular movie that we've been thinking about lately.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Remember "Dirty Harry," that Clint Eastwood film of the early '70s? Its catch phrases are part of the language now.

CLINT EASTWOOD, ACTOR: You've got to ask yourself one question: do I feel lucky? Well, do you, punk?

BROWN: The title character Harry Callahan, is a loose cannon cop out to catch a sniper, a killer with a rifle and a telescopic sight who's been picking people off one by one in a terrorized San Francisco.

That must be why the film's come to mind more than once in the last couple of weeks. It's a measure of the anger and frustration we feel that Harry Callahan's the guy we half-wish would jump off the screen and head over to Maryland and Virginia. What a terrible thing to find yourself yearning not for a hero but for an avenging angel.

And that's what Dirty Harry is, after all, almost as violent as the man he's trying to catch. He wreaks havoc on his way to dishing out his own brand of justice. Harry plays by no rules but his own. He's a vigilante who just happens to be wearing a badge, ruthless and wrathful, as unstoppable as a shark that scented blood. Now, don't misunderstand, please. We don't mean to disparage all those real cops who are doing real work of trying to catch a very real killer just now. Their job is very difficult, can be very tedious, and needless to say, these days is awfully frustrating.

Which is why, heaven help us, like kids hoping for a caped crusader or a man of steel, we keep thinking about Hollywood's avenging angel.

EASTWOOD: You've got to ask yourself a question: do I feel lucky? Well, do you, punk?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We'll leave you with that for tonight. Paula Zahn and "AMERICAN MORNING" updates the investigation beginning at 7:00 Eastern time. We'll see you tomorrow night at 10:00 Eastern. Until then, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Sniper, Police Enter Dialogue?>


Aired October 21, 2002 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening, again, everyone.
In the two weeks since this horrible sniper business began, there have been scary days and very sad days. There was one hopeful day and then there was today, a day that can only be described as a confusing day. The minimum standard for the program tonight is simple: make sense of it all.

The events themselves have been very confused since the shooting on Saturday night. Not only the longer than usual wait to see if the shooting was related, but then there were the notes, the calls, the two men taken into custody and the news conferences and the messages the police sent out to the sniper or whoever.

It has seemed like there have been more facts in the last 24 hours than in the whole of the last two weeks. We get lots of notes from people who say they believe we're spending too much time on the story. We see far more, far more from people who do not feel that way at all. Tonight we'll hear from someone certain that we are over- covering, and while we are somewhat embarrassed to take issue with Walter Cronkite, we do so gently here.

Not everyone watches all the time. Some people tune CNN on when they wake up and keep it on all day and all night, and we have a special affection for them. But we don't program for them necessarily. Most people tune in and tune out a little here and a little there, and for them it is not repetitious, it is new. And while we'd like to talk them into joining that other group, the smaller group who never turns the dial, we accept that's probably not going to happen. So we'll keep reporting what we know.

Tonight, we're going to take it very slowly, so that at the end of the night the timelines are clear, the events make sense, as much as they can, and like Mr. Cronkite, we can't wait for the day when we don't have to report this anymore.

We begin once again in the suburbs of Washington. Kathleen Koch in Montgomery County, Maryland. Kathleen, a headline from you, please.

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, police today speaking in code that only a killer understands, and the communication has not been easy.

BROWN: Kathleen, that is a part of the story you'll be dealing with.

The latest now on the investigation. Jeanne Meserve has been working tonight, developing some new information on the calls and the notes. Jeanne, a headline from you.

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, how did the sniper and the police enter a dialogue? We'll have some of the specifics about how it started and what has happened since -- Aaron.

BROWN: Thank you, Jeanne.

And on to a community that thought it might be out of reach of the sniper. Michael Okwu tonight on the status of the latest victim, this one in the Richmond, Virginia, area. Michael, a headline from you tonight.

MICHAEL OKWU, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the sniper's 12th victim is battling for his life in stable, but critical condition. Prognosis hopeful, but doctors say that he has a very long, arduous journey ahead -- Aaron.

BROWN: Michael, thank you. Back with all of you coming up shortly.

Also on the program tonight, we'll go to the Middle East. A suicide bombing killed more than a dozen Israelis today, where the only constant seems to be violence and bloodshed on both sides.

And my talk today with two legends playing two other legends from centuries ago, Walter Cronkite and Warren Buffett, starring as two of the founding fathers, a cartoon for kids about the American revolution. We'll talk about the series, and we'll talk about other areas of their expertise. News and money with Mr. Cronkite and Mr. Buffett.

All of that in the hour ahead.

We begin with an exhausting day in the hunt for the sniper. It began with an arrest and the hope that perhaps this would be it. But at the end of the day the two men taken into custody had nothing to do with the killings at all. The sniper is still out there, having found a new locality to terrorize.

That part is simple. The rest gets tricky. There was a note, perhaps a demand for money. There were phone calls. There was a plea for another. There were all sorts of moving parts today, enough so that you might forget that a man in a Richmond hospital is fighting for his life. Our coverage begins now with CNN's Kathleen Koch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KOCH (voice-over): It is a path fraught with problems, communicating with a killer. Police for a second time in one day trying to reach out to the sniper who shot 12 people.

CHIEF CHARLES MOOSE, MONTGOMERY COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT: The person you called could not hear everything that you said. The audio was unclear, and we want to get it right. Call us back so that we can clearly understand.

KOCH: That, as miles south in Richmond, Virginia, police moved in on a man at a phone booth in a white van hoping to catch the killer. Instead, they apprehended two undocumented workers, apparently in the wrong place at the wrong time. Chief Moose in an earlier message had implied police were working to keep the dialogue open.

MOOSE: We are going to respond to a message that we have received. We will respond later. We are preparing our response at this time.

KOCH: The words, just as carefully parsed as they were Sunday night, when Moose first sent a message through the media. That in response to a note found in the woods behind the latest shooting site at the Ponderosa restaurant in Ashland, Virginia. So when and whether police speak has become a minute-to-minute guessing game.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I hope that everyone will appreciate that we are at a very sensitive stage of this investigation, and therefore, it is critical that we determine when it is appropriate to speak, who speaks, and what they say.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KOCH: So for now, the police continue using the media as a virtual conduit to the killer. No word yet on whether or not he or they have called back, have responded to police Chief Moose's call. And police Chief Moose would not say personally whether or not he is more optimistic or encouraged now that this dialogue has been opened -- Aaron.

BROWN: Just one quick one, I think, tonight. As I was watching the chief this afternoon making this plea for another call, it seemed to me he was reading exactly what he wanted to say. The impression I got is just that, is that they had thought long and hard about each word they were going to use in that statement.

KOCH: Well, Aaron, you know his message earlier this morning was that they were preparing a response to what the killer or killers had given them. So perhaps this indeed was the response. Though we were expecting somewhat more. This very carefully worded answer, or request to please call back.

But yes, every single word is very carefully chosen, very carefully phrased. To have the impact, the desired impact on the caller.

BROWN: And not to make the problem worse. Kathleen, thank you. Kathleen Koch has had a long day out in Montgomery County.

Some of the details are emerging now from the note found near the scene of the latest shooting. A lot of intriguing ones that may help us better understand what police have been saying, why they have been saying it. Jeanne Meserve is in Washington tonight. She's been working that part of the story. Jeanne, why don't you go ahead and begin, and we'll see where it leads us.

MESERVE: OK, Aaron. We've heard only one side of the conversation between the sniper and the police. Now some of the details on what the sniper is saying and how the communications began. As you heard Kathleen say, officials have told CNN that hours after the Ashland, Virginia shooting a call came in instructing the police where to find a letter.

As we know, it was found behind the Ponderosa steakhouse, where the shooting took place. In the letter these officials tell us was a phone number. Police were to call the sniper at that number. These officials say that the phone number was for a residence and police surmised that the sniper might have inadvertently transposed some numbers.

So they played a bit with the numbers, and when they switched the last two it was the number for a business, which seemed a more likely point of contact. Officials had both of those numbers rerouted to the task force headquarters, and then Chief Moose came before the cameras saying, you gave you us a telephone number, we want to talk to you, call us at the number you provided.

According to sources, investigators believe the sniper called on Monday morning using some kind of mechanism to disguise his voice. And then, at about 4:15 this afternoon Chief Moose came before the cameras again to say the person you called could not hear everything you said, the audio was unclear, call us back. No word from our sources on whether the sniper has responded with another call.

Sources tell CNN the note found behind at the Ponderosa contains specific demands, including hints of demands for money and a timeline for officials to act on his desires.

If they fail to act, he threatened another attack. As a result, I'm told, there is heavy commitment of law enforcement resources in the greater Richmond area tonight, including a robust federal presence. And tomorrow ten public school districts in the metro Richmond area have decided to cancel classes -- Aaron.

BROWN: OK. I've been writing down as you've been talking. This first phone call came to whom? Do we know?

MESERVE: There has been -- there's conflicting information on this. I will tell you that the source who I consider most reliable indicated to me that that call came in to the FBI tip line.

BROWN: Is that different from the task force tip line?

MESERVE: No. I'm referring to -- the task force tip line is answered by the FBI at FBI headquarters.

BROWN: Got it. And they have determined that this is a question that neither the business or the residence in this transposed phone number that you were dealing with, that neither the residence nor the business have anything to do with this?

MESERVE: I don't know if that's been clarified or not. I know that when they looked at a residence phone number it seemed unlikely to them. They played with the numbers, came up with this business. That looked more likely.

We don't know why that looked more likely to them. But apparently, the sniper must have known what number they were dealing with because they received a subsequent communication from him.

BROWN: And just one more on the letter, if I may. You've said the letter contains specific demands and hinted at money.

MESERVE: Right.

BROWN: So I took from that two different ideas coming out of that note. Do we know -- set the money aside. That's pretty -- that part we all get. Do we have any idea what the specific demands were?

MESERVE: I do not know what the other demands are. It was demands, plural. When my sources spoke to me, we have heard about the hints of money from Kelli Arena's sources. We do not know what the other demands are.

BROWN: And just because -- I know where this is going, but I'll ask it anyway. And apologize for doing so, actually. We have no idea the amount of the money, do we?

MESERVE: No.

BROWN: OK. Thank you. This is what reporters do, is they try and put these pieces together. And you've done a terrific job tonight, Jeanne. Thank you.

MESERVE: A lot of pieces to put together, Aaron.

BROWN: There are. And we'll give you some time to work on some of them and come back to you later on in the program and try to sort through the rest. Thank you. Jeanne Meserve working hard tonight.

More now on the latest victim. Doctors used the word "insult" to describe an injury or trauma to the body. A .223 caliber bullet is just that, an insult. It desecrates whatever it touches and traumatizes the rest. This is the man who sends it on his way is doing to entire communities. The victim's story now from CNN's Michael Okwu.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

OKWU (voice-over): The 12th victim, a 37-year-old man, is only the third who wasn't killed by the sniper's signature single shot. He is in stable but critical condition, having survived two operations, just the start of what doctors say will be several surgeries he will need.

DR. RAO IVATURY, MEDICAL COLLEGE OF VIRGINIA: He is conscious. He's responding to his wife's voice. He's moving all the extremities. His vital signs have remained very stable. And all his numbers are coming back to normal.

So he's in a stable but critical condition. There is still a long way to go. We expect a lot of complications because of all the injuries he has received.

OKWU: The gunshot echoed across a busy corridor of fast food restaurants and motels Saturday night in Ashland, Virginia. Again, it happened just off I-95, but this time, 70 miles outside of Washington, D.C. Now the furthest targeted point south of the nation's capital.

The man, who authorities have not identified, was struck in the parking lot of a Ponderosa restaurant. Authorities believe the shot was fired from this adjacent wooded area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And as they were leaving after eating their meal, walking across the lot, his wife heard what she thought was a backfire of an automobile, and about that time her husband declared that he had been shot and went to his knees.

OKWU: Doctors say the bullet had an explosive effect on the victim's organs. To save his life, they removed his spleen and parts of his stomach and pancreas. He lost almost five liters of blood. Fragments of the bullet still remain inside. A hospital official read a statement from the victim's wife.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "The hospital has taken care of all of our needs. So there is no need to send anything other than continued prayer."

Please pray also for the attacker and that no one else is hurt.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

OKWU: Highly unfortunate timing for this couple. They happen to be from out of state and were driving on the interstate when they decided to take a break and perhaps catch a little food at the Ponderosa restaurant when all of this happened. Hospital officials say that just recently the victim started opening his eyes but he's still not in the position of being able to talk yet, Aaron. But they're very, very quick to add that he's very, very lucky to be alive -- Aaron.

BROWN: Michael, thank you. Our prayers are with him and his family tonight. Go to the Web page for the town of Ashland, Virginia, and you'll see a banner that reads, "Welcome to the center of the universe." Residents call it that, even though they know it isn't, and they're probably glad it's not. This is a town that prides itself on its history, its schools, and the feeling of safety and community that people who live here enjoy, or at least did enjoy.

Tomorrow, kids in Ashland won't be going to school for the second straight day because the sniper's still out there. And, at least for now, Ashland is the center of the universe. Here's CNN's Kevin Sites.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KEVIN SITES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Normally, sixth grader James Tuck (ph) would be in school right now, not doing flips on the back yard trampoline. But this is no ordinary Monday in Ashland, Virginia. Because of the recent shootings, 200 schools in four area school districts closed. More than 150,000 kids stayed home.

Judy Tuck (ph) is happy to have her kids home and safe. She was worried there could be more violence.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's a possibility that, you know, he had hit so many times in one area, that maybe Ashland was, you know, could be hit again, a second time.

SITES: Other parents believe the worst is over.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's so unusual, you don't see this type of stuff. So I can't imagine, you know, lightning would strike twice type of situation.

SITES: Angie Miller (ph) enjoyed the bonus day with her children, but not the way she got it. An innocent man gunned down in her town.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, it was pretty scary. You know, the helicopters in the back yards. And yeah, it was pretty scary.

SITES (on camera): For hundreds of schools around the area the scene is the same: darkened classrooms, empty playgrounds, empty school buses. So when will things get back to normal for the kids here? It may be a while. According to Hanover public school officials, until further notice, all outside activities will be suspended.

ALLAN FUNK, ASHLAND PARENT: I don't think keeping them out of school is going to do any good. Like I say, I think it's just going to create more fear.

SITES (voice-over): And fear is impacting more than just the schools here. Many businesses stayed closed today, while others say they probably should have.

(on camera): On a Monday, how many customers do you usually have in here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Usually about 30 or 40 customers.

SITES: How many are in here now?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right now? Two.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Today specifically we usually by this time of day have done 20 to 25 tanners, and we've done three to four today already. SITES (voice-over): Ashland is literally split in two, east and west, by railroad tracks. In some ways the recent violence here has roared through the heart of the city like a freight train. Those who live here are eager to put it past them, and there are signs that may already be happening. While so many schools and shops were closed here today, Ponderosa reopened for business.

Kevin Sites, CNN, Ashland, Virginia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: While the latest victim struggles to survive, another victim, the one killed a week ago tonight, was laid to rest. Linda Franklin was supposed to be unpacking in her new home today along with her husband. Instead, hundreds of people turned out in Arlington, Virginia to mourn the 47-year-old FBI analyst, the mother of two, a breast cancer survivor.

She was killed last Monday outside a Home Depot in Falls Church, Virginia, while loading packages with her husband. Her father described her as a rambunctious kid fond of little pranks. "That was just Linda having fun," he said. Linda Franklin, buried today, was about to become a grandmother.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll get some more insight into the sniper investigation from former FBI deputy director Weldon Kennedy. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We said at the beginning of the program that the day to us at least seemed somewhat confusing. It's not only the sequence of events and the notes, the calls and the rest, but it's also giving some meaning to them. So we're particularly pleased to have Weldon Kennedy with us tonight. He's a former deputy director of the FBI, a key player in the Oklahoma City investigation. And oh, if this one had only ended so quickly.

WELDON KENNEDY, FMR. DEPUTY DIRECTOR, FBI: Absolutely.

BROWN: We were talking before, and I said now we've got these notes and what do they tell you, and the first thing you said is if they're legit.

KENNEDY: Yes, because we can only guess at this point. We, the public, or the general public, don't really know what's going on inside the investigation. But we've already seen one person step forward who furnished very false information to the investigators.

BROWN: We -- in just watching the police chief today and the way he was talking, the things he said, does that lead you to believe that they believe they're legit?

KENNEDY: And they have to operate as if it is legit because it very well may be. But obviously, he was in whatever programmatic way he had been directed, was trying to communicate with this individual. BROWN: And so you got the same impression that I did, that they had picked every word in that statement...

KENNEDY: Very carefully.

BROWN: That they'd run it by the forensic psychiatrists and the whole group to figure out what words will draw him in and not upset him?

KENNEDY: Or alienate him or make him angry or have him react in some very undesirable way.

BROWN: Does the fact that this person, assuming now legitimacy, that the person asked for money, does that change in any sense how you view what they are trying to deal with?

KENNEDY: Not really. But it throws an entirely new dimension to this scenario. Unless that is some sort of a red herring. And that would be the way I believe that I would be approaching it at this point. Even a red herring, even if it's a legitimate communication from this individual.

BROWN: That he is toying with them?

KENNEDY: Well, not necessarily toying, but he's throwing out a false clue, or a false lead in essence.

BROWN: And inviting them to waste plenty of time on something that's not going anywhere?

KENNEDY: Possibly, yes.

BROWN: I said to you earlier that in all the time I covered cop stories that the one thing I came to believe is that by and large criminals are stupid. In this case you've got someone who I don't think anyone actually believes that.

KENNEDY: That he's stupid? No. But they are human beings still, in spite of all the horrific crimes that have been committed. And sooner or later, potentially a mistake can and possibly will be made.

BROWN: And the mistake can be tiny.

KENNEDY: Yes.

BROWN: And do you at some level believe the mistake has been made but not yet recognized?

KENNEDY: That's entirely possible. It may be already in the system. Some person may have already called in and said, I believe that this person could possibly be so and so, by name even, and that maybe is even already in the system and it has not been surfaced yet.

BROWN: We were talking about McVeigh, which was your case. And the thing that led to this very quick capture of McVeigh was that it was a traffic violation, a moving violation. What led to the moving violation is really the story.

KENNEDY: Yes. McVeigh had left a vehicle parked behind a building, YMCA building, adjacent to, or near to the Murrah Building. He left it there over the weekend, and he put a note on the dashboard, said "Do not tow, dead battery" attempting to hope that no one would think the car had been abandoned and just tow it away so he that would still have an escape vehicle when he got there.

And indeed he did. And he drove away in that escaped vehicle, and 60 minutes later Trooper Hanger (ph) of the Oklahoma highway patrol stopped him for one reason. No license plate on the rear of his vehicle.

BROWN: And somebody likely, very possibly, stole the license plate.

KENNEDY: That's my personal theory, because it was in an area of the city where that possibly could have happened.

BROWN: And the lesson in that is that good police work is a combination of very disciplined stuff and a little bit of luck?

KENNEDY: Yes, Aaron. You're correct.

BROWN: And so far they have not had the little bit of luck?

KENNEDY: Not so far apparently.

BROWN: It's nice to see you again.

KENNEDY: Thank you. Good to be with you.

BROWN: I know you'll understand when I say I hope I don't see you again for a while.

KENNEDY: True. Absolutely. Thanks.

BROWN: Weldon Kennedy.

A few other quick stories to fit in tonight, beginning with the U.S. Supreme Court and the death penalty before the court again. The court decided not to hear two capital murder cases today. One involved a man facing the death penalty for a murder he committed when he was 17 years old, and the other for a man who spent nearly three decades on death row waiting to die.

The court split along traditional lines, as it does in death penalty cases. Four more liberal judges saying the court should continue re-examining issues surrounding the death penalty. Last year, you'll recall, the court banned executions of those who are considered mentally retarded.

Upstate New York next, and the war on terror. Six men from the suburb of Boston indicted today on charges of supporting terrorism. They had been arrested before the indictment came down from the grand jury today. Charges they trained in an al Qaeda camp in Afghanistan. Arraignment formally set for tomorrow. The men face up to 15 years in prison should they be convicted.

(UNINTELLIGIBLE) reported to federal prison today. Mr. Kennedy, you probably never imagined you'd see this. Former Louisiana Governor Ed Edwards began serving a ten-year sentence for extorting money from those applying for riverboat casino licenses. This is a guy who dodged more bullets than Deringer (ph). The former governor spent his final day as a free man walking his dog and eating a hamburger at his favorite Louisiana diner.

And an update on the insider trading scandal involving Martha Stewart. Enforcement staff at the Securities and Exchange Commission has told Ms. Stewart that they'll recommend civil charges be filed against her. What those charges would be are not precisely clear tonight. Investigators are looking into whether she had an inside tip when she dumped shares of Imclone late last year, just before the stock plunged. These are civil violations. Criminal violations could come as well, but they haven't yet.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, violence again in the Middle East.

Also, later in the program, we'll update the investigation in the sniper case. A long way to go yet tonight. This is NEWSNIGHT on a Monday from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: In a minute, we'll tell you about a discovery that could be the oldest link between the Jesus of the bible and Jesus the man. That's the wonder of the Middle East.

But first, we have to get through the continuing horror of the Middle East. A suicide bombing this morning on the road between Tel Aviv and Haifa, which, of course, followed Israeli actions on the West Bank and Gaza, which followed other suicide bombings, which followed -- who remembers exactly what?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): There was a sick and sad familiarity about the scene. The names and numbers of the dead different, but everything else, like so many other attacks over so many years.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know that a car loaded with explosives hit the bus from behind while it was on its way to Hadera, toward Tel Aviv. And of course, the hit when the car exploded, this caused immediately the fire on the bus, and most of the casualties.

BROWN: Israeli authorities later said the vehicle was a small SUV packed with about 250 pounds of explosives. Fourteen people, at least some of them soldiers, died inside the bus. About 45 were injured.

The two suicide bombers inside the vehicle were also killed. The response from the Israeli government was also familiar.

RA'AAN GISSIN, ISRAELI GOVERNMENT SPOKESMAN: All the too familiar views of carnage and death and terrorist attacks. And it comes really at a time when we are trying so diligently to charter a road map towards peace. While the Palestinian terrorist organization and part of the Palestinian authority are chartering only a blood path.

BROWN: And familiar, too, was the response from Yasser Arafat.

YASSER ARAFAT, PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY: We are condemning completely these terrorist activities against civilians to be civilian -- Israeli civilians or Palestinian civilians.

BROWN: But as always is the case, that was rejected amid a new charge that Palestinian groups have now banded together to wage a greater terror campaign. No evidence to support that charge by the Israeli government was offered.

Like all things in the Middle East, nothing happens in isolation. Over the weekend Israeli troops moved against a band of Jewish settlers near Nablus. This particular ultra right-wing group had set up an illegal settlement in Palestinian territory. Some of the group's members had launched what authorities said was unprovoked attacks against Palestinian farmers in the West Bank just a day earlier. Something Palestinians claim has been going on for weeks.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Israel today.

A few other stories from around the world before we go to break. President Bush said today he is hopeful the world can persuade North Korea to give up its nuclear weapons program. The tone at the White House, one of calm concern. Pretty clear the administration is trying to keep this low-key. Mr. Bush says he'll ask China's president for additional help in pressuring North Korea when the two meet later this week.

In Iraq the prisons are mostly empty, mostly. Saddam Hussein granting a blanket amnesty over the weekend. A thank you, he said, for his election victory. There are questions. Amnesty International wants to know how many political prisoners remain behind bars and what happened to the thousands of other people who simply disappeared after the Gulf War.

And in Jerusalem a discovery of biblical proportions. A paper published today in a prestigious archaeological journal says the writing on that burial box probably refers to Jesus of Nazareth. The box bears an inscription. The box bears an inscription when translated it reads "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus." If true, it would be the oldest and therefore the closest historical link to Jesus Christ.

A little bit later on NEWSNIGHT we'll talk with Warren Buffet and Walter Cronkite about money, news, and American history.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, two American icons, Warren Buffett and Walter Cronkite, talk about some earlier American icons.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The episode is called "We The People" and it's chock full of context on the writing of the U.S. Constitution, compromise on the slavery issue, the inauguration of the first president, George Washington.

This isn't the History Channel or some documentary on late-night C-SPAN. It's a cartoon called "Liberty's Kids," trying to teach children about the American Revolution.

And today we had a chance to speak with two members of an extraordinary cast. You will no doubt recognize the voice of Benjamin Franklin, played by Walter Cronkite. And maybe the investment philosophy of the multi-billionaire who plays James Madison, an unassuming guy from Omaha named Warren Buffett.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WARREN BUFFETT, AS JAMES MADISON: I believe in free press. But to succeed in our goals each delegate must know he can change his mind without public embarrassment. Besides, I'll keep my own notes for the historians.

WALTER CRONKITE, AS BENJAMIN FRANKLIN: I'm sorry, but James Madison is right. The delegates need to be left alone to do their work. But I know if I tell you what's happening you'd never write anything you shouldn't.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Not in a million years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Benjamin Franklin probably did sound like Walter Cronkite.

Earlier today I met with Mr. Cronkite and Mr. Buffett to talk about "Liberty's Kids" and how media have handled the sniper and how the '90s will be remembered in terms of corporate America. All of that and more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Were you happy doing Madison? Was there anything -- did you know much about Madison before?

BUFFETT: I boned up a little bit. I got out my "World Book" and did a little reading. So a I'm better versed on Madison now than before.

BROWN: Do you like him now more than before?

BUFFETT: I like most of the characters. But it's true. When you see the contribution that a relatively -- a handful of people made to a -- to this country and what they created, the document they created in the Constitution, it's mind blowing. I mean, it is a -- it is an instrument that has taken this country from 3 million people largely on -- in farming to the greatest country in the world. And it's had to be modified very little over that time.

BROWN: I think that's the remarkable thing about it, isn't it? Is that you look at all of the changes in 200 years of history, all of the changes in society over that time, the changes in the population, all of that. And with just a little tweaking here and there the document is incredibly alive.

BUFFETT: Yes, just take the first ten Amendments. I mean, you know, Walter Cronkite is a product, you know, of the First Amendment. In a state-controlled communications system who knows what would have happened?

It's caused the best -- the cream to rise to the top in many areas of America. And that's why that little struggling country of 3 million, you know, is the world leader by a huge margin.

And it's not because we're smarter than the rest of the world. It's not because we're physically different. It's not because our natural resources are that much superior to other civilizations. But that framework that was set at that time is incredible wisdom, has produced an incredible country.

CRONKITE: Clearly, freedom of the press is a foundation of any democracy. You can't call it nation or democracy if it doesn't have freedom of press. And where freedom of press is in any way restricted, that diminishes the democracy.

And I think we in our country understand freedom of press to the degree that we judge other countries on how free their press is.

BROWN: When you watch, for example, the kinds of wall-to-wall, non-stop coverage of something like the sniper thing that's going on outside Washington, where there's honestly, as you know, very few facts and certainly very little new, and we can still make 24 hours out of it, how do you see that? Is that overkill?

CRONKITE: Yes. Of course, one of the problems is that the networks are so heavily focused on Washington and Washington, quite obviously, was engrossed with this thing. I mean, you didn't know whether walking on the street you were going to be the next victim or not.

And since Washington was engrossed, they overplayed it nationally. I don't think the national audience needed to know all that was carried hour after hour on the national networks about the sniper attacks. It's a very important story, important for various reasons, but just besides being sensational, it's a story about our times and gun control again is brought up now and is a serious discussion again across the country, which is important, I think, to our country and our future.

It had the potential of being a terrorist operation. So it was a bigger story than it might have been just with a few shootings. But I do think that it was overdone.

BROWN: Since we started talking about history, how do you think history will record the '90s in your universe, the universe of business and money?

BUFFETT: Well, I think they'll regard the late '90s as something of a mass hallucination that people suspended disbelief and gave up quantifying the value of businesses and did a great many foolish things and because they were happy during that period they overlooked a lot of behavior that now is being examined more carefully and doesn't reflect well on certain perpetrators.

BROWN: Well, there's actually two things there. I mean, there's the business, ethical part of it, which I assume angers you.

BUFFETT: It angered me at the time, even. I mean, what happens is that I think when you get that kind of a -- kind of a mass financial party going on, an anything-goes philosophy tends to spread. And some of the most egregious things are really not what the crooks did but how, in effect the norms slipped.

I mean, I say it was a little bit like too many CEO followed the career path of Mae West, who said, you know, I was Snow White but I drifted. Well, too many CEOs drifted during that period. It was easy to do because there were no checks on it.

I mean, if the stock went up, everything else was OK. And we're past that period now. But it was some party.

BROWN: And on just the other side of that, there's the CEO side of that, and then there's the rest of us, I suppose, who didn't read very carefully your annual report and thought there was easy money to be made if only we threw the dart reasonably close to the center.

BUFFETT: Well, the interesting thing is if you just invest in American business over the decades, you do fine. I mean, you can -- you know, the Dow started in the 1900s at 66 and it ended at 11,000.

You'd think, Well, how can you avoid doing well in a period like that? But people managed to because, you know, they, you know, they get very greedy and they think they should make a lot more money than just sort of following the track of American business.

American business has done fine for investors over time. But a lot of times investors have shot themselves in the foot. And they did in the late '90s.

BROWN: Thank you all.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Warren Buffett and Walter Cronkite. It was an afternoon. Next on NEWSNIGHT we'll update the sniper investigation. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, we said at the outset the goal tonight of the program was fairly simple: take a confusing set of events over the last 24 hours or so and make them clear and try and lay out a simple timeline.

We've made some progress in that regard. We'll try and make some more now. Kelli Arena covers the justice department for us. Jeanne Meserve, who you saw earlier, has been working her police sources and others. Both join us now for a few of the back details on today's developments.

Good to see you both. I want to start with something that Weldon Kennedy brought up, which is this question of whether or not these communications, the phone calls and the note, in fact come from the sniper. The thinking, Kelli, is what and why?

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Sources that I've spoken to, Aaron, do -- are working on the presumption that the note is legitimate. At first, sources told us that initially it did not look like the handwriting was the same handwriting as was found on the Tarot card after the shooting in Bowie, Maryland. That, as we know, is being analyzed.

But sources say that there were certain similarities between the note and the Tarot card which have not been divulged publicly, but that investigators are aware of that make them think that this is coming from the same person. So that it is a legitimate communication from the sniper.

BROWN: Is there in these notes, are they suggesting to you that there's been some attempt to disguise the handwriting?

ARENA: Not sure, Aaron. Like I said, initially, it did not look the same, but I was told that that analysis is going deeper now to find out if there is anything that can be drawn in terms of whether this was written by the same person and just somebody trying to change it. I mean, there are ways that a good handwriting analyst can determine whether or not the same person wrote it even if someone tries to change their handwriting.

So that is being done at the FBI lab, along with your usual profiling and DNA analysis as well.

BROWN: Right. And that would include what kind of paper it was written on, I assume. And just, this may sound obvious to everyone, but me, but it was handwritten, it wasn't typed out. It wasn't on the computer.

ARENA: That's right. Handwritten, just like the Tarot card was.

BROWN: OK. Jeanne, on the phone calls, there were two. The call that -- the call that goes to the tip line, impossible to trace where that came from?

MESERVE: Actually, Kelli just made a motion as if she has some hard and fast information on this. I'm going to defer to her.

BROWN: That's fine. We work together here. Kelli, go ahead.

MESERVE: We certainly do. Let me tell you.

ARENA: It's been a tag team today. The -- what we've reported, Aaron, is that the call that initially came in to the FBI tip line was, in fact, traced to an address in Richmond, Virginia, which is what initially brought investigators, all those federal agents that you saw this morning swarming on that van this morning, to make those arrests of the two individuals it turned out not to have any connection to this case.

But it was that first call that came in on the tip line that was traced to an address, and then that whole area was canvassed by local, state, and federal agents.

MESERVE: And I was told, Aaron, that that call came in in the early hours of Sunday morning, which would have been not too long after that Ashland shooting.

BROWN: OK. Here's -- one of you needs to now unconfuse me, if you will. The note has a phone number on it. I gather now that the phone number, which we've been through maybe had transposed numbers, maybe did not, whatever. In any case, that's a different line, I gather, than the line they traced off the tip line phone. Is that right?

MESERVE: That's right. And the sniper said, Call, according to our sources, said, Call me at this number.

But as I told you earlier there, was a little confusion when they looked at the number because it went to a residence which appeared apparently to have no relationship at all to this case.

So then they started playing a bit with the numbers, figuring out if he had unintentionally transposed something, and they finally deduced that he may have and felt that it was the number for a business.

BROWN: And very quickly, as the two of you have been comparing notes today, you've both been working the phones pretty hard, are your sources generally telling you the same things?

ARENA: Yes.

BROWN: They're in agreement?

ARENA: Well, they are eventually in agreement when we bring it to you, Aaron, and to our viewers. No, I have to tell you, I mean, the one thing that I have found is that you get some really strong indications. For example...

MESERVE: Today, certainly.

ARENA: ... when those two individuals were taken into custody, there was a lot of optimism and some confidence that perhaps this had been a major breakthrough in this case. And then all of a sudden you started to get people backing off. So once you get a consensus is when we go to air with information.

MESERVE: But we both were getting that build-up, Oh, wow, this is something hot. And then we both were getting the signal, No, bring it down.

BROWN: Jeanne, Kelli, you guys have been terrific today. Thank you both. Appreciate it very much.

And we'll wrap it up for the night with one different way to look at all of this in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Finally, from us tonight, wishes that can't come true. You know what children do when they're in a bad spot, they fantasize a way out, they call on an imaginary friend or superhero or some other powerful make-believe figure who isn't bound by the laws of gravity or possibility or logic or any of that stuff.

Truth is children aren't the only ones who do that. Grown-ups, even reporters, daydream sometimes about waking up to find a terrible problem magically solved the way it might be, say, in a movie. Well, the way it was, in fact, solved in a particular movie that we've been thinking about lately.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Remember "Dirty Harry," that Clint Eastwood film of the early '70s? Its catch phrases are part of the language now.

CLINT EASTWOOD, ACTOR: You've got to ask yourself one question: do I feel lucky? Well, do you, punk?

BROWN: The title character Harry Callahan, is a loose cannon cop out to catch a sniper, a killer with a rifle and a telescopic sight who's been picking people off one by one in a terrorized San Francisco.

That must be why the film's come to mind more than once in the last couple of weeks. It's a measure of the anger and frustration we feel that Harry Callahan's the guy we half-wish would jump off the screen and head over to Maryland and Virginia. What a terrible thing to find yourself yearning not for a hero but for an avenging angel.

And that's what Dirty Harry is, after all, almost as violent as the man he's trying to catch. He wreaks havoc on his way to dishing out his own brand of justice. Harry plays by no rules but his own. He's a vigilante who just happens to be wearing a badge, ruthless and wrathful, as unstoppable as a shark that scented blood. Now, don't misunderstand, please. We don't mean to disparage all those real cops who are doing real work of trying to catch a very real killer just now. Their job is very difficult, can be very tedious, and needless to say, these days is awfully frustrating.

Which is why, heaven help us, like kids hoping for a caped crusader or a man of steel, we keep thinking about Hollywood's avenging angel.

EASTWOOD: You've got to ask yourself a question: do I feel lucky? Well, do you, punk?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We'll leave you with that for tonight. Paula Zahn and "AMERICAN MORNING" updates the investigation beginning at 7:00 Eastern time. We'll see you tomorrow night at 10:00 Eastern. Until then, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

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