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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Hostage Takers in Moscow Threaten to Execute Hostages; A Look At Paul Wellstone's Career

Aired October 25, 2002 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANDERSON COOPER, GUEST HOST: Good evening, again.
We have been pouring over the early career of Senator Paul Wellstone, who died today in a plane crash, along with his wife and daughter, three aides and two pilots. Wellstone blazed into Capitol Hill a liberal firebrand straight off the beat up 1960's school bus he campaigned in, at least in the figurative sense.

Early on, he stepped on a few toes in the Senate, a place where the toes are unusually sensitive. He said he despised the firebrand to his right, Senator Jesse Helms of North Carolina. That was 12 years ago.

Earlier this month, Paul Wellstone was on the Senate floor paying tribute to the retiring Jesse Helms, praising him for the respect he showed average people on the hill, the ones without the fancy titles or the big salaries.

Today, Senator Helms returned the praise, saying this in a statement: He said, "Paul Wellstone was a courageous defender of his beliefs. Despite the contrast between Paul's and my views, he was my friend and I was his."

Those who serve in the Senate say it's like a family. The fights can be brutal, but at some point kinship transcends the squabbling. The Senate is just one of several families in mourning tonight.

There is, of course, a huge political story to discuss, what Wellstone's death might mean for the balance of power in the Senate. But at the base of it all, this is a story about loss for all of the families, and they are in our thoughts tonight.

Much more on this story coming up, but we begin with a story that's gotten overshadowed this week: a hostage crisis in Moscow. Ryan Chilcote is following that story. He joins us by phone.

Ryan, the headline.

RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we just heard a lot of gunfire outside the theater. Inside the theater, as you know, 700 hostages, an estimated 700 hostages inside. There have been threats that have been conveyed through intermediaries that have been going into the building. Threats from the hostage takers that they would start executing hostages if their demands were not met. Now let me reiterate those demands. Those demands are -- there's simply one demand, that Russian forces withdraw their troops from the Republic of Chechnya, where Russia has engaged in a war since 1999. Nothing less they want then an end to the war in Chechnya.

We just heard some gunfire, explosions here on the scene. Also we hear some fresh reports just now that we have two hostages dead, another two wounded. Back to you.

COOPER: All right. Ryan, we will check back in with you momentarily.

Back now to the Wellstone story. We're joined by our colleague, Judy Woodruff, who is in Manchester, New Hampshire -- Judy.

JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: Well, Anderson, you laid it exactly right. An outspoken member of the Senate, perhaps the most outspoken member of the Senate, a Democrat with conviction and passion, Senator Paul Wellstone, killed today in a plane crash with his wife and daughter and five others, leaving his home state of Minnesota in a state of shock, and leaving the political world in upheaval -- Anderson.

COOPER: All right. Back with you in a moment as well. Paul Wellstone, the senator and the man, Candy Crowley is on that for us tonight. Candy, the headline.

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, he came out of nowhere 12 years ago to become the Senate's purist liberal and unrelenting voice for the left. A look back tonight on the politics and the person of the senior senator from Minnesota.

COOPER: And on to the sniper suspects and what they may face in court, or maybe we should say courts plural. Kathleen Koch is in Rockville, Maryland once again tonight. Kathleen, your headline.

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Just a day after the much sought after sniper suspects were taken into custody the infighting has already begun over who gets to take them to trial first -- Anderson.

COOPER: All right. Back with all of you in a moment.

Also coming up tonight, our Jeff Greenfield, who just returned from Minnesota after interviewing Senator Wellstone. Senator Patty Murray, chair of the Democratic Senate Campaign Committee on what the party does now, former Senator Paul Simon, a close friend and a mentor to Mr. Wellstone, he will be with us. And Jeffrey Toobin tonight on the sniper case, as it begins what could be a very windy path through the justice system.

We begin in Russia. Something very dangerous is going on right now in Moscow. CNN's Ryan Chilcote is there and is back on the phone for us. Ryan, what is the latest?

CHILCOTE: Well, we have a hostage crisis here that's been going on now for two days. Now we are in the third day of this hostage crisis. I am outside of the theater, outside of the theater where there are an estimated 700 hostages inside being held by some 40 gunmen threatening to blow them all up if Russian forces raid or attack this theater.

We have heard a lot of gunfire in the last 15 minutes. We have heard a lot of explosions. And I have seen a lot of troops moving around. But those troops were not necessarily moving -- from my vantage point, I can't confirm that they were moving at the building. I don't want to say that there is an attack underway, but they were scurrying around, perhaps moving to other positions closer to the building. Back to you.

COOPER: I wanted to ask you, Ryan, this is about -- the Chechen rebels had said that dawn was their deadline that if Russia did not begin to pull out or signal, some form of pullout from Chechnya or some region in Chechnya, they would begin killing hostages. Very possibly they would blow up the entire building.

It's my understanding it is dawn now in Moscow. It's eight hours ahead of the United States on the East Coast. So it is around dawn. The gunfire you heard and the explosions you heard, are they ongoing or was this several minutes ago?

CHILCOTE: You know it has quieted down right now. These explosions and automatic gunfire I heard were going on for about 15 minutes, and that ended about five or 10 minutes ago. It doesn't sound like there is a huge gunfight underway. It doesn't sound like this building is being attacked right now, quite frankly, at this particular moment.

COOPER: Ryan, we also had reports about three hours ago of an explosion, some kind of explosion outside or inside the building. People couldn't really tell. Are the explosions you heard recently different than the explosions we had a report of earlier?

CHILCOTE: Yes, sure. There have been lots of explosions over the last two days. Probably maybe on a dozen different occasions we heard automatic gunfire or explosions. And it's not always been possible to confirm whether they were inside the theater or whether they were outside. There have been ex-changes of gunfire and explosions.

What is different about this, is that the frequency of the gunfire, I mean it was dah-dah-dah, pow. There was a lot of it for a steady 15 minutes. You know, sort of, there would be a pause every minute or so. But there was a lot greater intensity than anything I have heard in the last two days that I have been here.

Now let me just say about the threats to start executing hostages at dawn, if their demands haven't been met, if the hostage takers demands haven't been met. You know these hostage takers have made other threats and made other promises that they haven't followed through on. So we can only hope that they are not going to follow through on these threats. And these threats, of course, we are only learning about through intermediaries. So we can't necessarily independently confirm them.

But if I just might mention, the hostage takers said there are some 75 foreign nationals in there, including people from the United States, Germany, Holland, Australia, from 16-some different countries, 75 people inside.

The hostage takers said they were going to let them go both yesterday and today. They didn't follow up on that promise. So perhaps this threat that we are learning about independently, or rather indirectly through the intermediaries, perhaps they are not going to follow through on this threat. We can only hope.

COOPER: That is certainly true. We can only hope at this hour. Ryan, I know you have got to go. We appreciate you joining us, and we will come back to you as the story warrants in the next hour. Thanks very much. Ryan Chilcote reporting from outside the theater in Moscow.

Now, more on the death of Senator Wellstone. And for that, I turn things over to our own Judy Woodruff -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: Thanks, Anderson.

I am actually reporting from Manchester, New Hampshire. We came to New Hampshire yesterday to cover a tight Senate race here. Things in the state of New Hampshire not very different from so many other states around the country at this time of the year, with the Senate, literally, United States Senate literally hanging in the balance.

You have candidates rushing from one campaign stop to another trying to squeeze in as many activities as they can. Senator Paul Wellstone of Minnesota no different. He was locked in a tight Senate race. But this morning, when he got up and got on a small plane with his wife, his daughter, three members of his staff, and the two pilots, it wasn't to go to a campaign stop.

Our Bill Delaney picks up the story tonight from there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL DELANEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Senator Paul Wellstone's twin-engine, 11-seat A-100 crashed in freezing rain and light snow.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The plane was making an approach into the Everlet airport when something happened to it and it went down. The area where the plane is at would be, when you look out here, it's pretty much what you are looking at. It's a typical wooded area of northeastern Minnesota. The approach to get into the scene is very swampy, it's wet, a lot of pine trees.

DELANEY: A team from the National Transportation Safety Board left Washington to investigate the tragedy. One mystery: why seven miles out from Everlet, Virginia Municipal Airport, the King Air aircraft reported no problems, only to crash two miles from the airport. Besides the senator, a one-time college professor, raised in Virginia, Sheila, his wife and close advisor, also lost. And the Wellstone's daughter, Marsha, three campaign staffers and two pilots died too.

Wellstone leaves two sons, six grandchildren. He had been on the flight to northeastern Minnesota to attend a funeral; an interlude amid his hard-fought race for re-election. Tributes for perhaps the Senate's most liberal member came from all sides of the political spectrum.

SEN. TOM HARKIN (D), IOWA: Paul Wellstone was my closest friend in the Senate. He was the most principled public servant I have ever known. Paul truly had the courage of his convictions. And his convictions were based on the principles of hope and compassion.

BOB DOLE, FMR. SENATE MAJORITY LEADER: We didn't vote very often together, but we respected one another. And he would come by my desk and I would go back and talk to him now and then and joke back and forth. He had this very lively personality. And he just is a good, decent guy.

DELANEY: And a man who, like all politicians, managed to scale heights of power then to spend endless hours in the air to stay there. Flying home, overseas junkets campaigning. In October, two years ago, Missouri Governor Mel Carnahan running for Senate crashed in bad weather. Running posthumously, he went on to win the seat.

In April, 1981, Senator John Heinz of Pennsylvania was killed when his plane crashed into a helicopter. In September, 1983, Representative Larry McDonald of Georgia was shot down by a Russian MiG on board Korean air flight 007. And now, Paul Wellstone.

Bill Delaney, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WOODRUFF: In a few minutes, we will dig into -- delve into the some times, always interesting, often fascinating, and some times unlikely career of Paul Wellstone. We'll talk to friends and colleagues on both sides of the aisle.

But first, let's consider the broader political implications, political and otherwise, of his passing. Let's turn to my colleague Jonathan Karl, who tonight joins us from St. Paul, Minnesota -- Jonathan.

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Judy, I am here on the steps of the state house, the Minnesota state house here in St. Paul, where just a little while ago there was a candlelight vigil. It happened quite spontaneously tonight. Hundreds of people coming out, hundreds of Minnesotans, many Democrats, but not just Democrats, Republicans and Independents, as well, lighting a candle, singing songs, remembering Paul Wellstone here on the grounds of the state capital. There was also the famous bus, that old beat up bus that Paul Wellstone used when he first ran for Senate back in 1990 and was the staple in all his campaigns. That was here as well. People left flowers and candles on the bus and remembered him.

And they weren't just remembering Paul Wellstone here, Judy. Remember there were eight people of course who died on that plane. There were the two pilots, there was Wellstone's family, the two pilots, and also those three staffers. One of those staffers was Mary McEvoy, who is also the vice chairman of the Democratic Party here in Minnesota. And her daughter was here among those lighting a candle and singing and remembering and crying and laughing and trying to, trying to deal with all this.

Her daughter Rebecca, who is a freshman in high school. And I spoke to her right after this vigil was over. Here's what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REBECCA MCEVOY, DAUGHTER OF WELLSTONE STAFFER: They actually let me hold a sign for my mom. And they -- they were chanting, "Mary." And it just made me feel so special because everyone knew who she was. And everyone liked her so much. And it just feels like she should be here right now. Because it is a Wellstone thing, and she should be here screaming "Wellstone" along with everyone else.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: So, Judy, as you can see, a very, very tough story here. Really Democrats and everybody else in Minnesota in a state of shock. But they also were very well aware they are 11 days away from an election. This, as you know, was ground zero in the battle for control of the Senate. This was one of those half a dozen races that was the most hotly contested. And now Democrats are scrambling to figure out what comes next.

And, as you know and as you have been reporting, one of the names we are hearing a lot is Walter Mondale. What I can tell you about Walter Mondale tonight -- I know Patty Murray is going to be on the show later. I have been told by Democrats, that Patty Murray, who is, of course, Senator from Washington and Chairman of the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, has been reaching out trying to get a hold of Mr. Mondale tonight.

We've also been told that labor leaders, like John Sweeney, of the AFL-CIO, will be reaching out to Mr. Mondale over the next 12 hours trying to ask him to jump in and to take Paul Wellstone's place on the ballot here in Minnesota. The Democrats have until Friday at 4:00. That is their deadline.

By Friday at 4:00 they must decide who they going to put on the ballot to replace Paul Wellstone -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: Jonathan, Karl, thanks very much.

I have been talking to some Democrats as well, all of whom agree that Walter Mondale, if he agreed to do it, would be an immediately well-accepted choice. Senator Mondale, former Senator, former Vice President Mondale, still being a very popular figure in the state of Minnesota. Thank you, Jon.

Well the praise for Paul Wellstone, as you have been hearing, is coming in from all quarters. And one line we liked in particular came from someone -- I guess you would have to say is a leading voice in Minnesota, Garrison Keillor, "A Prairie Home Companion" author. He said he was "delighted by disagreement." That's what Garrison Keillor said about Paul Wellstone.

Somebody you might enjoy arguing with at a dinner party or on the Senate floor. An old school liberal out of political fashion these days. But, as anyone will tell you, fashion was the last thing that motivated Paul Wellstone. He was all about conviction, and about the passion of his beliefs.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senators voting in the negative.

CROWLEY (voice-over): Look up nearly any overwhelming vote in the Senate, 99-1, 98-2, and bet that one of the dissenters was the senator from Minnesota.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mikulski, Murray and Wellstone.

CROWLEY: Paul Wellstone was intensely passionate, purely liberal.

He called drug industry profits obscene, fought bankruptcy laws he thought were anti-consumer and tax policies he said favored the rich.

SEN. PAUL WELLSTONE (D), MINNESOTA: Republicans want some of the largest corporations in the country to pay zero in taxes but they refuse to help the people who are flat on their back, out of work...

CROWLEY: The uncompromising nature of his politics wasn't everybody's cup of tea.

A survey of Congressional staffers called Wellstone one of the Senate's biggest windbags.

WELLSTONE: You can't realize this goal of leaving no child behind. Not on a tin up budget, not unless you make this commitment and there will be no education reform bill because it can't be reformed!

CROWLEY: Lobbyists dubbed him the worst dressed.

But mostly, Wellstone's politics and his passion were softened by the playfulness of his character.

WELLSTONE: We're going to win! CROWLEY: His life was a culmination of unlikely stories. The son of Jewish Russian immigrants who grew up in Virginia, with an old green bus and a set of quirky commercials, Wellstone, a college professor, beat powerful Republican Senator Rudy Boschwitz in 1990. It was one of the decade's political stunners.

Wellstone eventually became the senior citizen from Minnesota, who fought against the big guys for the little guys, the darling of the big burly unions in Minnesota's iron range.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't come better. The best senator in the United States.

CROWLEY: The rap was that Wellstone was so unrelentingly liberal he could never accomplish anything in an increasingly centrist Senate. But he found pockets of bipartisanship to further his passions. He and conservative Senator Domenici, both with mental illness in the family, team up to push for insurance parity for mental illness.

WELLSTONE: It is a matter of fairness and justice and we are going to fight this all the way.

CROWLEY: Wellstone thought in the end what mattered most was not winning, but principle. So when he broke his promise to serve for only two terms, he took some heat. But Wellstone said the stakes were too high in a divided Senate for him to leave.

But winning was not everything. Wellstone was the only Democrat in a tough race to vote against the resolution of war against Iraq.

WELLSTONE: I have to only do what my head and heart and soul tell me is the right thing to do. That's all I can do. CROWLEY: Perhaps it would have cost him some votes, but Wellstone, though he was battling multiple sclerosis, had a fight for his seat that was energetic and typically Wellstone.

WELLSTONE: I think the race has to do with, you know, people in Minnesota saying, Look, this -- you know, we want a senator who is on our side when it comes to jobs or when it comes to being willing to take on these big economic interests. We don't view Paul as a WorldCom guy or an Enron guy or a Global Crossings guy. We view him as one of us and for us.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CROWLEY: There are this evening so many tributes and, as usual, the simplest are the best. Said Democratic Senate Leader Tom Daschle, "Paul Wellstone was the soul of the Senate." -- Anderson.

WOODRUFF: Thanks, Candy, it's actually Judy. And we want you to stay around for a little while, because we're going to come back shortly with more of the life and the death of Paul Wellstone.

Anderson will also be back a little later on the show with more on the charges against the two men who have now been accused of being the snipers in the Washington area. NEWSNIGHT continues. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOODRUFF: We have been talking about Senator Paul Senator, killed tragically today in a plane crash in Minnesota. My colleague, Jeff Greenfield, CNN Senior Analyst, was in Minnesota this week traveling and talking with Senator Wellstone. Jeff is with us now in New York -- Jeff.

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: Judy, on Monday I flew up to Minneapolis. It was snowing. Drove up to Saint Cloud and watched Senator Wellstone engage in a four-way debate in Minnesota, classic Minnesota politics. A contentious debate, issue-oriented and very civil.

And when the debate was over, I followed him to a rally in Saint Cloud (ph), Minnesota at a college. And then in front of that famous bus you have been talking about, Senator Wellstone and I did a brief interview. And I want you to see a bit of it, because it gives you a flavor of the kind of unpretentious, ask me whatever you want I'll answer it kind of guy he was. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WELLSTONE: I'm not 10 feet tall. But you make me feel 10 feet tall. Together we can win this race. And together we can win this race the right way on the basis of our hopes and dreams and love for Minnesota. We'll win the race!

GREENFIELD: Has there been a change in the emphasis that you bring to your job, has 12 years in Washington...

WELLSTONE: Changed me? Yes, it has. Of course 12 years in Washington has changed me. But in this way and not this way. Twelve years in Washington has changed me in that I learned after the first year you need to know the rules and you need to know your leverage and you need to know how to do the work for people in Minnesota.

Second of all, you push the envelope all the time. But every time you can get something done for Minnesota, you do it. And that's what I do. I love coming through for communities. Both Sheila and I love doing that.

What hasn't changed is same values, same hopes, same dreams, and sometimes the same indignation.

GREENFIELD: The use of force resolution you voted against. People actually suggested, well, that actually is proof that you are who you are even if most people disagree with you. And that you're not suffering from that politically.

WELLSTONE: I don't actually to this day know ultimately how that vote will -- what will happen. But I will tell you this, I voted against the resolution and everybody said it is over in Washington. And I didn't know, but I have no numbers, like how many people for or against. But I know this, the people in Minnesota have been unbelievably gracious and respectful to me. People have been so respectful. They come up, and even when they don't agree they have been so respectful about that vote. I am blessed, sounding like a real politician. But I am blessed to be a senator from Minnesota.

GREENFIELD: Is there something about this state that put you in the Senate?

WELLSTONE: Well, this state is special. I will love people of Minnesota for the rest of my life for the opportunity they have given me. And I hope they will give me an opportunity again to be a senator.

But, personally, with my looks I could get elected in any state.

GREENFIELD: I can't top that. All right. Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GREENFIELD: It's often said, you know, Judy, about people on the left, that they love humanity but they're not too crazy about people. Nobody can say that about Paul Wellstone. He ran a campaign and he was having the time of his life in this campaign.

A close race, he was a few points ahead. But this was a hugger. This was a man who embraced friends, he embraced foes. He was on the campaign trail. He really exemplified what Hubert Humphrey once called in 1968 "the politics of joy." That may not have been a good year to talk about that, but Wellstone brought joy to the campaign and he made everybody have a good time, even the people who were going to vote against him -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: Indeed, Jeff. I just -- the word leprechaun came to mind when I saw him. I mean he was, as we said today, small in stature, but a big heart, full of joy. Candy Crowley is back with us now, as well as Jeff.

To Candy, you consider what Paul Wellstone brought. There really is nobody even close to him in terms of his presence, and just the package, if you will, in the Senate. You covered the Senate, Candy?

CROWLEY: There isn't. Because you have liberals, but there are not those as liberal. But you also have this great combination of a man who really was a liberal and a nice guy, what Jeff just alluded to. I mean they liked his sense of humor.

You just sort of look at the people tonight. Jesse Helms, who has nothing in common politically with Paul Wellstone, other than their passion for their own separate beliefs, who said tonight, you know, "Paul Wellstone was my friend and I was his."

So he was able to be a real people person and then cast again these really lonely votes. I mean he hardly ever agreed even with his own party. But he stood on principle. They respected him for that. And they really liked the guy. WOODRUFF: Jeff, is it really so rare that we find a politician with principle? I mean we all seem to be remarking on that today and tonight.

GREENFIELD: You raise a very good point, Judy. There's an echo of what a lot of us are saying about Paul Wellstone that's pretty damning about how we think of politics as usual. Look, Paul Wellstone, in the two Senate races, never got more than 50.5 percent of the vote. He won by two points in 1990, he won by more in 1996, because there was a third-party candidate.

If he won this time out he probably would have gotten about 50 percent. So it's not as the he was beloved in a political sense. A lot of people strongly disagreed with him. But the answer to your question is it is very rare to have a politician who votes the way he feels who has no little voice in the back of his mind saying what are they polling on this. And is a man who can earn the respect and affection and genuine affection of people who fundamentally disagree with him.

You and I both know, all of us know that there is one guy in the Senate, whose name I won't mention, of whom it is said, a very smart guy, even his best friend can't stand him. There are a lot of politicians who survive on sheer will power and tenacity and they're smart. But boy the -- there is very cold steel in their eyes.

Paul Wellstone, in the Yiddish phrase, a mensch. He was a sweet nice guy who had very strong beliefs, but he wasn't a hater, he wasn't a zealot. And I think that's why you are hearing this remarkable mourning from people who couldn't have agreed with him less.

WOODRUFF: And, Candy, I am struck that , as you pointed out, it's not just Democrats, it's not just moderate Republicans, it's Republicans all the way on the right who were calling CNN today making sure that we knew that they cared about this man and that they're going to miss him.

CROWLEY: Sure, yes. And he was -- you know the other thing in talking about -- is he -- is he so different from the other people up there? The thing about Paul Wellstone that made you really appreciate him as a journalist is he never stopped. I mean, the camera would go off and he would be on another subject that he was passionate about.

He just -- he went on and on. I mean, that's what he liked to talk about in his private time. So he was -- you know he is also, as you know, that most of the time when you get a 15-second sound bite it is about half a sentence for most of the politicians. Paul Wellstone could get 12 ideas in 15 seconds. So he was great fun to cover.

WOODRUFF: All right. Well-spoken. Candy Crowley, our political correspondent, Jeff Greenfield, our senior analyst in New York, we thank you both. Appreciate it.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, before we go back to that terrible sniper case, we're going to remember Paul Wellstone with two of his former colleagues, Senator Patty Murray and retired Senator Paul Simon. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOODRUFF: More now on Senator Paul Wellstone. Who he was, the legacy he left, and what happens in the United States Senate. He was fighting a very closely-fought campaign in the state of Minnesota.

We'll talk to Senator Patty Murray, first of all. She is also chair of the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee. We will also talk with a former senator, Paul Simon, of Illinois.

Senator Murray, to you first. You and I talked a little bit earlier today. Have you seen anything quite like this? We have seen the tributes pouring in from Democrats, from Republicans. It's pretty remarkable.

SEN. PATTY MURRAY (D), WASHINGTON: Well, you know, Paul was so full of life, and he made everybody feel that they were important and that their voice was important, and I have seen him with individual people, empowering them, and I have seen him with crowds of a thousand, empowering the entire crowd to feel like they could make a difference, and I think that kind of life is hard to believe that it's gone. I think that's why it is just so difficult for all of us today.

WOODRUFF: Senator, former Senator Paul Simon, I should have said you are joining us from Carbondale, Illinois near your home in Illinois. You yourself known as a liberal Democrat, Senator Wellstone was unabashedly, proudly, a liberal Democrat. Is that a breed that we just don't see much of anymore, but before I ask you that -- what about Senator Wellstone himself?

PAUL SIMON, FORMER SENATOR: Well one of the points that Jeff and others have made, he was fun to be with. Bob Dole mentioned that. But I think that two things that you really think about, Paul Wellstone, are, number one, his compassion; and number two, his courage. If there is one ingredient that government really needs, it's courage.

WOODRUFF: And -- the other part of that question, we don't hear -- it's almost as if "liberal" has become a dirty word in American politics. Does it take more courage to be liberal?

SIMON: Well, I think that many people who are liberal today don't use the tag, but if you ask them where they stand on health care for all Americans, they say we're for it. You know, go on the issues, and I think -- what some people call a "liberal agenda" actually is very much alive, and still very much needed in the nation.

WOODRUFF: Senator Murray, as I mentioned, you are also the chair of the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, and even as the state of Minnesota, the nation, mourns the loss of Paul Wellstone with the election just barely 11 days away, surely thought, we know that thought is being given to what happens in the state of Minnesota. Can you tell us about any discussions you have had, or any discussions you are aware of, in terms of what happens to his name on the ballot.

MURRAY: Well, I think all of us are really focused today on talking to Paul's staff, his family, the many, many people who support and love Paul, and to give them our condolences and our thoughts and our prayers as we get through the next several days.

Certainly, we are very close to an election, and that is difficult for all of us to get over that hurdle and say what do we do next, and that will be something that will have to occur in the next couple days working with, of course, Paul's family in mine as well as his supporters and the party in Minnesota.

WOODRUFF: We can certainly understand that, given the fact that it was just today that the senator's plane went down.

Senator Simon, the name of Fritz Mondale has come up -- the two of you served in the Senate together. Any thought on whether Fritz Mondale -- the speculation has been, perhaps, the party might turn to Walter Mondale. Any thought about whether he would be willing to do this?

SIMON: I have no idea whether he would be willing to do it or not, but he would be superb. He could move into the Senate and serve immediately, and certainly, philosophically, is of the same bent as Paul Wellstone.

WOODRUFF: All right. We want to thank both former Senator Paul Simon and Senator Patty Murray. Thank you both for talking with us this evening. It is good to see you both. We appreciate it.

SIMON: Thank you, Judy.

MURRAY: Thanks, Judy.

WOODRUFF: And one other person we want to talk with tonight, and that is a reporter who spent yesterday covering Paul Wellstone -- traveling around the state as he campaigned in this tight Senate race. He is Alan Elsner, he is a national correspondent for Reuters. He told one of NEWSNIGHT's staff, he said, -- quote -- "I never do TV interviews, but I am doing this tonight to honor the memory of a nice guy."

Alan Elsner, thank you for being with us. Talk about Senator Wellstone yesterday. What did he do yesterday?

ALAN ELSNER, REPORTER, REUTERS: Well, it was a typical Wellstone day. It was his kind of joy of campaigning, as one of your previous guests mentioned. He was driving around. His first event was in Daddy-O's (ph), which was a kind of a cafe diner in Elk River.

But they got there a little early, so he just dove into a Denny's and started shaking people's hands, and I was struck by the fact that nobody seemed that surprised to see the senior senator of their state kind of bobbing up in front of them. You know, everyone said, Hi, Paul. How are you doing? You've got my vote, or maybe not, but nobody said, Oh, wow! It's Senator Wellstone! He just wasn't that kind of guy. Later he went into a Barnes and Noble, completely unscripted, just off the cuff. Let's go in there, see who is hanging around, talk to the people behind the coffee bar, talk to the people picking books.

It was the same kind of thing. He seemed to have a one-on-one relationship with everyone in the state of Minnesota as far as I could see.

WOODRUFF: He went into this campaign, earlier this year, he was considered vulnerable, maybe the most vulnerable Democratic incumbent, and yet he fought his way to a place, I think, where a lot of people thought he had a good chance to hold on to the seat. What were his views when you talked to him yesterday about what his chances were?

ELSNER: Well, I think he -- I was with him for about five or six hours, and a lot of it was off the record, but I think he was utterly convinced he was going to win. He put his trust in his ground operation, his grassroots support that was spread all over the state, and which is what got him elected the first time 12 years ago, and I think that he was absolutely convinced he was going to win, but he was really looking forward to the last week and a half of the campaign. He kept saying how much fun it was going to be.

And you know, there are a lot of politicians out there who just go through campaigning as a kind of chore, it is a drag, it is something you just got to do to get elected, but for Wellstone, it was just a blast. He was having fun.

WOODRUFF: And he was -- and being received well. Alan Elsner, one other thing. His -- his career had been -- he was a professor for 21 years at Carleton College in Minnesota. He went from teaching to politics. Was there anything of the professor in what you saw?

ELSNER: Well, you know, whenever I saw Paul Wellstone, I kind of left with a reading list. He would always have a few books that, You have to read this. You have to read -- yesterday he told me how I had to read this book, "Let Us Now Praise Famous Men," and there was another one that I can't remember, I wish I had written it down. He said it was like 1200 pages long, and he forced everyone at on to read it. He said I should read it too.

And another thing that came out yesterday, you know, came out that my father and his father were born in the same town in Russia, in Odessa, and that seemed to let loose a whole -- a whole set of memories about his father. His father was a -- had wanted to be a writer and an essayist, and he had almost made it, and I got the impression that Wellstone was kind of looking back a little bit, and he was also very concerned to tell me that he wanted to go to Jerusalem with his whole family. He had gone a long way away from organized Judaism, he certainly wasn't considered a supporter -- a prominent supporter of Israel, but he seemed concerned to tell me that there was still a Jewish heart beating in Paul Wellstone, and that was one of the things that I really took away from the day.

WOODRUFF: Alan Elsner, Reuters correspondent, who spent yesterday, Paul Wellstone's last full day of campaigning, he spent the day with Senator Wellstone. Alan, thank you very much for talking with us.

ELSNER: You are very welcome.

WOODRUFF: We appreciate it.

A little later on NEWSNIGHT, you will hear some more about the early career of Paul Wellstone, but there was much more going on in the world today, and for that and more, let's go back to my colleague Anderson Cooper in New York -- Anderson.

COOPER: Judy, thanks very much.

Coming up next, we're going to have a look at the sniper case. The legal process begins against two suspects. We also are following a breaking story out of Moscow right now. Reuters is reporting that Russian special forces have entered the theater, whereas many as 700 people are being held hostage by several dozen heavily armed Chechen rebels. The Reuters report also says that armored personnel carriers are seen going toward the theater, as are ambulances. Five hostages, or people who are believed to be hostages, were seen leaving the theater. But no other information at this time as to casualties or -- or the status of both the hostages and the rebels. Special forces have apparently entered the theater. Gunshots have been heard. And that is the latest from Moscow. We will bring you up to date if warranted. We'll have more news coming right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, how to bring justice in the sniper case? Or the question today -- who to bring justice? We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: And welcome back. You only need to remember the map of the sniper shootings to get an idea of just how complicated it will be to figure out just who will bring these two suspects to justice. Add in the fact that another shooting has now come to light, one back in September in Alabama. And here's what you have got: three states seven counties, the District of Columbia, not to mention the federal government, all trying to stake a claim. Here's Kathleen Koch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KOCH: The infighting began almost immediately. Which county, state or the federal government will get to try the alleged snipers first? Montgomery County's prosecutor stunned many when he announced he is filing six counts of first degree murder against both, and will seek the death penalty for John Muhammad.

DOUG GANSLER, MARYLAND STATE ATTORNEY: We obviously feel that it's appropriate to bring six first degree murder charges here in Montgomery County. We have six victims here in -- seven victims from Montgomery County and six of the homicides occurred here. It is our obligation and it's our duty to charge these men with those charges.

KOCH: Angry Justice Department officials insist there is no agreement. One saying Gansler is, quote, "trying to exploit tragedy for political gain." One factor, whether it's less likely the death penalty would be imposed or carried out in Maryland. Unlike Virginia and Alabama, Maryland law also forbids the execution of minors like Lee Boyd Malvo. Maryland's governor insists that despite his state's moratorium on executions, in this case the death penalty can and should be applied.

GOV. PARRIS GLENDENING, MARYLAND: They will not in any way be deterred or impacted by that moratorium.

KOCH: Alabama, too, announced its intentions early, saying it would also seek the death penalty if the sniper suspects are tried there for a September murder/robbery.

CHIEF JOHN WILSON, MONTGOMERY, ALABAMA POLICE: We'll make an example out of (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

KOCH: The two suspects are being held at an undisclosed location in Maryland.

Meanwhile, flowers and gifts flowed into Montgomery Police headquarters in an outpouring of public gratitude. Elementary school children crafted banners and cards to thank officers for keeping them safe.

OFFICE TOM BAKALIS, MONTGOMERY COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT: Brought a tear to my eye. This is what being a police officer, a Montgomery County police officer is all about. See the love and the appreciation, and just knowing that those kids can go outside and run around today like they did when I was there. It was all worth it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KOCH: Well, the two suspects are apparently not offering much information to their interrogators right now. Sources tell CNN that Malvo, as a matter of fact, tried to escape from his interrogation room at one point when investigators stepped outside for a few minutes by climbing up into a ceiling duct. And luckily, they were able to bring him back down. Obviously, he is in a more secure location now. And as for Muhammad, his next court appearance is schedule for Tuesday -- Anderson.

COOPER: Kathleen, do we know anything about how much they have said previously? Has Muhammad said anything?

KOCH: We are hearing only from our sources, and this really from Kelli Arena, that they are saying precious little why they did this or which one was the trigger person.

COOPER: All right. Kathleen Koch, thanks very much.

An additional tidbit tonight in the sniper story. "The Washington Post" is reporting that one phone number the snipers claimed to have called is CNN's Washington bureau. A CNN spokeswoman said to our knowledge, no one at CNN received such a call.

When we return, bringing Malvo and Muhammad to justice. Can three states come up with one plan? We'll talk with CNN's legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: We continue now on the sniper case and the legal battles that have already began. Legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin is here. Welcome, Jeffrey.

So you have several jurisdictions, District of Columbia, three different states, Alabama, Virginia and Maryland. You would think that they would all just sit down and kind of work it out. That doesn't seem to be happening.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it hasn't happened yet. But I think we can trust that it will. Look, prosecutorial turf battles are well-established, long-standing part of law enforcement. Happens all the time. In a case this high profile, I don't think these prosecutors can really afford to look like they are grasping. It did not start out especially well today.

COOPER: You had the Maryland state attorney coming forward and saying that they're going to be filing -- they're going to be obtaining arrest warrants on six...

TOOBIN: And that's after Alabama filed their case this morning. And the federal government is not happy. Everybody really needs to get into one room and say, look, this is what we're going to do. Let's behave like grown-ups.

COOPER: A source, an F.B.I. source said -- or a federal source said to Kelli Arena: "It's unfortunate, he, the Maryland state attorney, is trying to exploit tragedy for political gain." I mean, is there any other explanation for what the Maryland state attorney was doing today?

TOOBIN: Well, I don't think that's not necessarily entirely fair. I mean, look, these guys are under arrest. Charges have to be filed. They don't have to be filed today. They could have been filed Monday. So I don't think it's not necessarily the wrong thing to do. But you really should get everybody together and decide how to proceed in an orderly way so that you don't have stuff like this. I mean, these cases are simply too important to have this kind of bickering.

COOPER: And just because Maryland has come out and said that they're going to -- they've obtained these arrest warrants, doesn't mean they're going to be the first to prosecute?

TOOBIN: No, by no means. I mean, there is no race to the courthouse. Just because you file your paper first doesn't mean you get the defendant in your courtroom first.

COOPER: Right. Let's talk death penalty. I mean, the drum beats on this thing are pretty extreme. And the rhetoric, the level of rhetoric is kind of unheard of. You don't really have anyone saying that there shouldn't be the death penalty. It's all a question of who is going to be the toughest? TOOBIN: And who'll get it first. You know, it's funny, we live in an era right now where support for the death penalty had actually been falling. We have had all these people on death row with DNA evidence, been freed.

There really -- there's moratorium in Illinois as well as -- well as Maryland. The trend had been in that direction. But this crime was so horrible, that everybody, you know, it seems is rushing to say, Well you know Maryland is a bunch of wimps, they don't execute 17- year-olds. Most countries in the world don't execute 17-year-olds. So people need to take a deep breath on this one.

COOPER: This is going to be a long legal process.

TOOBIN: It certainly will. This is one safe prediction.

COOPER: Thanks very much.

Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT, a look back at the late Senator Paul Wellstone on a mission. The year 1990.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Finally from us, Paul Wellstone, as he might like to be remembered, the feisty campaigner. A look now at a campaign ad from back in 1990 that seems inspired by filmmaker Michael Moore and his hot pursuit of a G.M. executive in "Roger and Me." Wellstone desperately seeking the incumbent at the time, the one he'd go on to beat in a surprise upset. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WELLSTONE: When I decided to run for Senate, there was one thing I was looking forward to. So, as it turns out, were a lot of you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I expect there will be some debates.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'd love to see a debate with you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think there should be debates, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some people have more money than others to play with. If you debate you are kind of standing there without money.

WELLSTONE: Getting a hold of the person I had to debate however, proved easier said than done.

Is Rudy Boschowitz here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, he is not.

WELLSTONE: You don't want me going...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, we don't like strangers walking around.

WELLSTONE: First I tried his campaign headquarters.

The let me give you my home phone number too, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure, I'll make sure that he gets this. And we'll get back to you...

WELLSTONE: What do you think? Do you think we should have debates around the state so that people can see?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll get the message to him.

WELLSTONE: What do you think?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Glad to meet you.

WELLSTONE: About the debates?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks for coming out.

WELLSTONE: OK, OK. All right. I'll see you all.

Nice car.

Then I tried his office.

Is he here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is not here. He is returning from Milwaukee.

WELLSTONE: No luck.

I'll write my home phone. Is this your pen?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm not sure. Probably not.

WELLSTONE: That's a nice one. Well, I don't have a lot of money so I'll keep this for our campaign.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That will be fine.

WELLSTONE: I tried everything. I mean everything.

Is Rudy Boschowitz here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not today.

WELLSTONE: Did Rudy Boschowitz call, did any body get a call from him? Well, if he calls, everybody, let me know. Hey, you guys.

OK, well maybe I can find him somewhere then. Thank you very much. OK, bye-bye.

They say he is in the cities. I don't know where he is. He's not in Minneapolis. They say he is campaigning. Then I go to St. Paul. They say he is in Milwaukee. Rest assured there will be debates on the key issues of this campaign. Look for upcoming dates and places. And in the meantime, if you see a silver-haired gentleman in a plaid shirt mention I'm looking for him.

Yes, information, do you have the telephone number of a Rudy Boschwitz, please, in Plymouth.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Before we go, want to update you on the hostage crisis in Moscow. CNN's Ryan Chilcote correspondent is there and back on the phone for us -- Ryan.

Ryan, go ahead.

CHILCOTE: All right, well I'm right here in front of the theater where a very dramatic hostage crisis situation is developing. This has been going on for the last two days, we have an estimated 700 hostages inside the building being held by some 40 -- 40 gunmen.

We understand that there has been -- well obviously I can tell you that I've seen quite a bit of movement outside the theater in the last -- well let me show you these APCs standing here, behind me. Well the APCs have actually moved up the road. Those troops you see there are from Russia's Interior Troops Division from the Elite Dzerzhinsky Division. I've seen them scurrying up the road. We've seen APCs moving towards that theater and we've been hearing reports that from hostages that were -- were fleeing the building that some of the troops might have actually been moving up in the direction of the building.

And we also have reports that at least two hostages have been killed and two wounded in recent hours here.

COOPER: All right, Ryan Chilcote, thank you very much from Moscow. Obviously it a developing situation. And we will check back in with you as the evening progresses. Thanks very much, Ryan.

Just to update you, Reuters is reporting that Special Forces Troops from Russian Interior Ministry Troops have actually moved into the theater. Ryan Chilcote reporting that he's seen a large number of APCs moving towards the theater. There's continued reports of gunfire. Ryan has heard a report of two hostages being killed. There is nothing else known at this time.

That's about it for us here at NEWSNIGHT. Thanks very much for joining us. Good night.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Look At Paul Wellstone's Career>


Aired October 25, 2002 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, GUEST HOST: Good evening, again.
We have been pouring over the early career of Senator Paul Wellstone, who died today in a plane crash, along with his wife and daughter, three aides and two pilots. Wellstone blazed into Capitol Hill a liberal firebrand straight off the beat up 1960's school bus he campaigned in, at least in the figurative sense.

Early on, he stepped on a few toes in the Senate, a place where the toes are unusually sensitive. He said he despised the firebrand to his right, Senator Jesse Helms of North Carolina. That was 12 years ago.

Earlier this month, Paul Wellstone was on the Senate floor paying tribute to the retiring Jesse Helms, praising him for the respect he showed average people on the hill, the ones without the fancy titles or the big salaries.

Today, Senator Helms returned the praise, saying this in a statement: He said, "Paul Wellstone was a courageous defender of his beliefs. Despite the contrast between Paul's and my views, he was my friend and I was his."

Those who serve in the Senate say it's like a family. The fights can be brutal, but at some point kinship transcends the squabbling. The Senate is just one of several families in mourning tonight.

There is, of course, a huge political story to discuss, what Wellstone's death might mean for the balance of power in the Senate. But at the base of it all, this is a story about loss for all of the families, and they are in our thoughts tonight.

Much more on this story coming up, but we begin with a story that's gotten overshadowed this week: a hostage crisis in Moscow. Ryan Chilcote is following that story. He joins us by phone.

Ryan, the headline.

RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we just heard a lot of gunfire outside the theater. Inside the theater, as you know, 700 hostages, an estimated 700 hostages inside. There have been threats that have been conveyed through intermediaries that have been going into the building. Threats from the hostage takers that they would start executing hostages if their demands were not met. Now let me reiterate those demands. Those demands are -- there's simply one demand, that Russian forces withdraw their troops from the Republic of Chechnya, where Russia has engaged in a war since 1999. Nothing less they want then an end to the war in Chechnya.

We just heard some gunfire, explosions here on the scene. Also we hear some fresh reports just now that we have two hostages dead, another two wounded. Back to you.

COOPER: All right. Ryan, we will check back in with you momentarily.

Back now to the Wellstone story. We're joined by our colleague, Judy Woodruff, who is in Manchester, New Hampshire -- Judy.

JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: Well, Anderson, you laid it exactly right. An outspoken member of the Senate, perhaps the most outspoken member of the Senate, a Democrat with conviction and passion, Senator Paul Wellstone, killed today in a plane crash with his wife and daughter and five others, leaving his home state of Minnesota in a state of shock, and leaving the political world in upheaval -- Anderson.

COOPER: All right. Back with you in a moment as well. Paul Wellstone, the senator and the man, Candy Crowley is on that for us tonight. Candy, the headline.

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, he came out of nowhere 12 years ago to become the Senate's purist liberal and unrelenting voice for the left. A look back tonight on the politics and the person of the senior senator from Minnesota.

COOPER: And on to the sniper suspects and what they may face in court, or maybe we should say courts plural. Kathleen Koch is in Rockville, Maryland once again tonight. Kathleen, your headline.

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Just a day after the much sought after sniper suspects were taken into custody the infighting has already begun over who gets to take them to trial first -- Anderson.

COOPER: All right. Back with all of you in a moment.

Also coming up tonight, our Jeff Greenfield, who just returned from Minnesota after interviewing Senator Wellstone. Senator Patty Murray, chair of the Democratic Senate Campaign Committee on what the party does now, former Senator Paul Simon, a close friend and a mentor to Mr. Wellstone, he will be with us. And Jeffrey Toobin tonight on the sniper case, as it begins what could be a very windy path through the justice system.

We begin in Russia. Something very dangerous is going on right now in Moscow. CNN's Ryan Chilcote is there and is back on the phone for us. Ryan, what is the latest?

CHILCOTE: Well, we have a hostage crisis here that's been going on now for two days. Now we are in the third day of this hostage crisis. I am outside of the theater, outside of the theater where there are an estimated 700 hostages inside being held by some 40 gunmen threatening to blow them all up if Russian forces raid or attack this theater.

We have heard a lot of gunfire in the last 15 minutes. We have heard a lot of explosions. And I have seen a lot of troops moving around. But those troops were not necessarily moving -- from my vantage point, I can't confirm that they were moving at the building. I don't want to say that there is an attack underway, but they were scurrying around, perhaps moving to other positions closer to the building. Back to you.

COOPER: I wanted to ask you, Ryan, this is about -- the Chechen rebels had said that dawn was their deadline that if Russia did not begin to pull out or signal, some form of pullout from Chechnya or some region in Chechnya, they would begin killing hostages. Very possibly they would blow up the entire building.

It's my understanding it is dawn now in Moscow. It's eight hours ahead of the United States on the East Coast. So it is around dawn. The gunfire you heard and the explosions you heard, are they ongoing or was this several minutes ago?

CHILCOTE: You know it has quieted down right now. These explosions and automatic gunfire I heard were going on for about 15 minutes, and that ended about five or 10 minutes ago. It doesn't sound like there is a huge gunfight underway. It doesn't sound like this building is being attacked right now, quite frankly, at this particular moment.

COOPER: Ryan, we also had reports about three hours ago of an explosion, some kind of explosion outside or inside the building. People couldn't really tell. Are the explosions you heard recently different than the explosions we had a report of earlier?

CHILCOTE: Yes, sure. There have been lots of explosions over the last two days. Probably maybe on a dozen different occasions we heard automatic gunfire or explosions. And it's not always been possible to confirm whether they were inside the theater or whether they were outside. There have been ex-changes of gunfire and explosions.

What is different about this, is that the frequency of the gunfire, I mean it was dah-dah-dah, pow. There was a lot of it for a steady 15 minutes. You know, sort of, there would be a pause every minute or so. But there was a lot greater intensity than anything I have heard in the last two days that I have been here.

Now let me just say about the threats to start executing hostages at dawn, if their demands haven't been met, if the hostage takers demands haven't been met. You know these hostage takers have made other threats and made other promises that they haven't followed through on. So we can only hope that they are not going to follow through on these threats. And these threats, of course, we are only learning about through intermediaries. So we can't necessarily independently confirm them.

But if I just might mention, the hostage takers said there are some 75 foreign nationals in there, including people from the United States, Germany, Holland, Australia, from 16-some different countries, 75 people inside.

The hostage takers said they were going to let them go both yesterday and today. They didn't follow up on that promise. So perhaps this threat that we are learning about independently, or rather indirectly through the intermediaries, perhaps they are not going to follow through on this threat. We can only hope.

COOPER: That is certainly true. We can only hope at this hour. Ryan, I know you have got to go. We appreciate you joining us, and we will come back to you as the story warrants in the next hour. Thanks very much. Ryan Chilcote reporting from outside the theater in Moscow.

Now, more on the death of Senator Wellstone. And for that, I turn things over to our own Judy Woodruff -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: Thanks, Anderson.

I am actually reporting from Manchester, New Hampshire. We came to New Hampshire yesterday to cover a tight Senate race here. Things in the state of New Hampshire not very different from so many other states around the country at this time of the year, with the Senate, literally, United States Senate literally hanging in the balance.

You have candidates rushing from one campaign stop to another trying to squeeze in as many activities as they can. Senator Paul Wellstone of Minnesota no different. He was locked in a tight Senate race. But this morning, when he got up and got on a small plane with his wife, his daughter, three members of his staff, and the two pilots, it wasn't to go to a campaign stop.

Our Bill Delaney picks up the story tonight from there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL DELANEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Senator Paul Wellstone's twin-engine, 11-seat A-100 crashed in freezing rain and light snow.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The plane was making an approach into the Everlet airport when something happened to it and it went down. The area where the plane is at would be, when you look out here, it's pretty much what you are looking at. It's a typical wooded area of northeastern Minnesota. The approach to get into the scene is very swampy, it's wet, a lot of pine trees.

DELANEY: A team from the National Transportation Safety Board left Washington to investigate the tragedy. One mystery: why seven miles out from Everlet, Virginia Municipal Airport, the King Air aircraft reported no problems, only to crash two miles from the airport. Besides the senator, a one-time college professor, raised in Virginia, Sheila, his wife and close advisor, also lost. And the Wellstone's daughter, Marsha, three campaign staffers and two pilots died too.

Wellstone leaves two sons, six grandchildren. He had been on the flight to northeastern Minnesota to attend a funeral; an interlude amid his hard-fought race for re-election. Tributes for perhaps the Senate's most liberal member came from all sides of the political spectrum.

SEN. TOM HARKIN (D), IOWA: Paul Wellstone was my closest friend in the Senate. He was the most principled public servant I have ever known. Paul truly had the courage of his convictions. And his convictions were based on the principles of hope and compassion.

BOB DOLE, FMR. SENATE MAJORITY LEADER: We didn't vote very often together, but we respected one another. And he would come by my desk and I would go back and talk to him now and then and joke back and forth. He had this very lively personality. And he just is a good, decent guy.

DELANEY: And a man who, like all politicians, managed to scale heights of power then to spend endless hours in the air to stay there. Flying home, overseas junkets campaigning. In October, two years ago, Missouri Governor Mel Carnahan running for Senate crashed in bad weather. Running posthumously, he went on to win the seat.

In April, 1981, Senator John Heinz of Pennsylvania was killed when his plane crashed into a helicopter. In September, 1983, Representative Larry McDonald of Georgia was shot down by a Russian MiG on board Korean air flight 007. And now, Paul Wellstone.

Bill Delaney, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WOODRUFF: In a few minutes, we will dig into -- delve into the some times, always interesting, often fascinating, and some times unlikely career of Paul Wellstone. We'll talk to friends and colleagues on both sides of the aisle.

But first, let's consider the broader political implications, political and otherwise, of his passing. Let's turn to my colleague Jonathan Karl, who tonight joins us from St. Paul, Minnesota -- Jonathan.

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Judy, I am here on the steps of the state house, the Minnesota state house here in St. Paul, where just a little while ago there was a candlelight vigil. It happened quite spontaneously tonight. Hundreds of people coming out, hundreds of Minnesotans, many Democrats, but not just Democrats, Republicans and Independents, as well, lighting a candle, singing songs, remembering Paul Wellstone here on the grounds of the state capital. There was also the famous bus, that old beat up bus that Paul Wellstone used when he first ran for Senate back in 1990 and was the staple in all his campaigns. That was here as well. People left flowers and candles on the bus and remembered him.

And they weren't just remembering Paul Wellstone here, Judy. Remember there were eight people of course who died on that plane. There were the two pilots, there was Wellstone's family, the two pilots, and also those three staffers. One of those staffers was Mary McEvoy, who is also the vice chairman of the Democratic Party here in Minnesota. And her daughter was here among those lighting a candle and singing and remembering and crying and laughing and trying to, trying to deal with all this.

Her daughter Rebecca, who is a freshman in high school. And I spoke to her right after this vigil was over. Here's what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REBECCA MCEVOY, DAUGHTER OF WELLSTONE STAFFER: They actually let me hold a sign for my mom. And they -- they were chanting, "Mary." And it just made me feel so special because everyone knew who she was. And everyone liked her so much. And it just feels like she should be here right now. Because it is a Wellstone thing, and she should be here screaming "Wellstone" along with everyone else.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: So, Judy, as you can see, a very, very tough story here. Really Democrats and everybody else in Minnesota in a state of shock. But they also were very well aware they are 11 days away from an election. This, as you know, was ground zero in the battle for control of the Senate. This was one of those half a dozen races that was the most hotly contested. And now Democrats are scrambling to figure out what comes next.

And, as you know and as you have been reporting, one of the names we are hearing a lot is Walter Mondale. What I can tell you about Walter Mondale tonight -- I know Patty Murray is going to be on the show later. I have been told by Democrats, that Patty Murray, who is, of course, Senator from Washington and Chairman of the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, has been reaching out trying to get a hold of Mr. Mondale tonight.

We've also been told that labor leaders, like John Sweeney, of the AFL-CIO, will be reaching out to Mr. Mondale over the next 12 hours trying to ask him to jump in and to take Paul Wellstone's place on the ballot here in Minnesota. The Democrats have until Friday at 4:00. That is their deadline.

By Friday at 4:00 they must decide who they going to put on the ballot to replace Paul Wellstone -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: Jonathan, Karl, thanks very much.

I have been talking to some Democrats as well, all of whom agree that Walter Mondale, if he agreed to do it, would be an immediately well-accepted choice. Senator Mondale, former Senator, former Vice President Mondale, still being a very popular figure in the state of Minnesota. Thank you, Jon.

Well the praise for Paul Wellstone, as you have been hearing, is coming in from all quarters. And one line we liked in particular came from someone -- I guess you would have to say is a leading voice in Minnesota, Garrison Keillor, "A Prairie Home Companion" author. He said he was "delighted by disagreement." That's what Garrison Keillor said about Paul Wellstone.

Somebody you might enjoy arguing with at a dinner party or on the Senate floor. An old school liberal out of political fashion these days. But, as anyone will tell you, fashion was the last thing that motivated Paul Wellstone. He was all about conviction, and about the passion of his beliefs.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senators voting in the negative.

CROWLEY (voice-over): Look up nearly any overwhelming vote in the Senate, 99-1, 98-2, and bet that one of the dissenters was the senator from Minnesota.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mikulski, Murray and Wellstone.

CROWLEY: Paul Wellstone was intensely passionate, purely liberal.

He called drug industry profits obscene, fought bankruptcy laws he thought were anti-consumer and tax policies he said favored the rich.

SEN. PAUL WELLSTONE (D), MINNESOTA: Republicans want some of the largest corporations in the country to pay zero in taxes but they refuse to help the people who are flat on their back, out of work...

CROWLEY: The uncompromising nature of his politics wasn't everybody's cup of tea.

A survey of Congressional staffers called Wellstone one of the Senate's biggest windbags.

WELLSTONE: You can't realize this goal of leaving no child behind. Not on a tin up budget, not unless you make this commitment and there will be no education reform bill because it can't be reformed!

CROWLEY: Lobbyists dubbed him the worst dressed.

But mostly, Wellstone's politics and his passion were softened by the playfulness of his character.

WELLSTONE: We're going to win! CROWLEY: His life was a culmination of unlikely stories. The son of Jewish Russian immigrants who grew up in Virginia, with an old green bus and a set of quirky commercials, Wellstone, a college professor, beat powerful Republican Senator Rudy Boschwitz in 1990. It was one of the decade's political stunners.

Wellstone eventually became the senior citizen from Minnesota, who fought against the big guys for the little guys, the darling of the big burly unions in Minnesota's iron range.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't come better. The best senator in the United States.

CROWLEY: The rap was that Wellstone was so unrelentingly liberal he could never accomplish anything in an increasingly centrist Senate. But he found pockets of bipartisanship to further his passions. He and conservative Senator Domenici, both with mental illness in the family, team up to push for insurance parity for mental illness.

WELLSTONE: It is a matter of fairness and justice and we are going to fight this all the way.

CROWLEY: Wellstone thought in the end what mattered most was not winning, but principle. So when he broke his promise to serve for only two terms, he took some heat. But Wellstone said the stakes were too high in a divided Senate for him to leave.

But winning was not everything. Wellstone was the only Democrat in a tough race to vote against the resolution of war against Iraq.

WELLSTONE: I have to only do what my head and heart and soul tell me is the right thing to do. That's all I can do. CROWLEY: Perhaps it would have cost him some votes, but Wellstone, though he was battling multiple sclerosis, had a fight for his seat that was energetic and typically Wellstone.

WELLSTONE: I think the race has to do with, you know, people in Minnesota saying, Look, this -- you know, we want a senator who is on our side when it comes to jobs or when it comes to being willing to take on these big economic interests. We don't view Paul as a WorldCom guy or an Enron guy or a Global Crossings guy. We view him as one of us and for us.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CROWLEY: There are this evening so many tributes and, as usual, the simplest are the best. Said Democratic Senate Leader Tom Daschle, "Paul Wellstone was the soul of the Senate." -- Anderson.

WOODRUFF: Thanks, Candy, it's actually Judy. And we want you to stay around for a little while, because we're going to come back shortly with more of the life and the death of Paul Wellstone.

Anderson will also be back a little later on the show with more on the charges against the two men who have now been accused of being the snipers in the Washington area. NEWSNIGHT continues. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOODRUFF: We have been talking about Senator Paul Senator, killed tragically today in a plane crash in Minnesota. My colleague, Jeff Greenfield, CNN Senior Analyst, was in Minnesota this week traveling and talking with Senator Wellstone. Jeff is with us now in New York -- Jeff.

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: Judy, on Monday I flew up to Minneapolis. It was snowing. Drove up to Saint Cloud and watched Senator Wellstone engage in a four-way debate in Minnesota, classic Minnesota politics. A contentious debate, issue-oriented and very civil.

And when the debate was over, I followed him to a rally in Saint Cloud (ph), Minnesota at a college. And then in front of that famous bus you have been talking about, Senator Wellstone and I did a brief interview. And I want you to see a bit of it, because it gives you a flavor of the kind of unpretentious, ask me whatever you want I'll answer it kind of guy he was. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WELLSTONE: I'm not 10 feet tall. But you make me feel 10 feet tall. Together we can win this race. And together we can win this race the right way on the basis of our hopes and dreams and love for Minnesota. We'll win the race!

GREENFIELD: Has there been a change in the emphasis that you bring to your job, has 12 years in Washington...

WELLSTONE: Changed me? Yes, it has. Of course 12 years in Washington has changed me. But in this way and not this way. Twelve years in Washington has changed me in that I learned after the first year you need to know the rules and you need to know your leverage and you need to know how to do the work for people in Minnesota.

Second of all, you push the envelope all the time. But every time you can get something done for Minnesota, you do it. And that's what I do. I love coming through for communities. Both Sheila and I love doing that.

What hasn't changed is same values, same hopes, same dreams, and sometimes the same indignation.

GREENFIELD: The use of force resolution you voted against. People actually suggested, well, that actually is proof that you are who you are even if most people disagree with you. And that you're not suffering from that politically.

WELLSTONE: I don't actually to this day know ultimately how that vote will -- what will happen. But I will tell you this, I voted against the resolution and everybody said it is over in Washington. And I didn't know, but I have no numbers, like how many people for or against. But I know this, the people in Minnesota have been unbelievably gracious and respectful to me. People have been so respectful. They come up, and even when they don't agree they have been so respectful about that vote. I am blessed, sounding like a real politician. But I am blessed to be a senator from Minnesota.

GREENFIELD: Is there something about this state that put you in the Senate?

WELLSTONE: Well, this state is special. I will love people of Minnesota for the rest of my life for the opportunity they have given me. And I hope they will give me an opportunity again to be a senator.

But, personally, with my looks I could get elected in any state.

GREENFIELD: I can't top that. All right. Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GREENFIELD: It's often said, you know, Judy, about people on the left, that they love humanity but they're not too crazy about people. Nobody can say that about Paul Wellstone. He ran a campaign and he was having the time of his life in this campaign.

A close race, he was a few points ahead. But this was a hugger. This was a man who embraced friends, he embraced foes. He was on the campaign trail. He really exemplified what Hubert Humphrey once called in 1968 "the politics of joy." That may not have been a good year to talk about that, but Wellstone brought joy to the campaign and he made everybody have a good time, even the people who were going to vote against him -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: Indeed, Jeff. I just -- the word leprechaun came to mind when I saw him. I mean he was, as we said today, small in stature, but a big heart, full of joy. Candy Crowley is back with us now, as well as Jeff.

To Candy, you consider what Paul Wellstone brought. There really is nobody even close to him in terms of his presence, and just the package, if you will, in the Senate. You covered the Senate, Candy?

CROWLEY: There isn't. Because you have liberals, but there are not those as liberal. But you also have this great combination of a man who really was a liberal and a nice guy, what Jeff just alluded to. I mean they liked his sense of humor.

You just sort of look at the people tonight. Jesse Helms, who has nothing in common politically with Paul Wellstone, other than their passion for their own separate beliefs, who said tonight, you know, "Paul Wellstone was my friend and I was his."

So he was able to be a real people person and then cast again these really lonely votes. I mean he hardly ever agreed even with his own party. But he stood on principle. They respected him for that. And they really liked the guy. WOODRUFF: Jeff, is it really so rare that we find a politician with principle? I mean we all seem to be remarking on that today and tonight.

GREENFIELD: You raise a very good point, Judy. There's an echo of what a lot of us are saying about Paul Wellstone that's pretty damning about how we think of politics as usual. Look, Paul Wellstone, in the two Senate races, never got more than 50.5 percent of the vote. He won by two points in 1990, he won by more in 1996, because there was a third-party candidate.

If he won this time out he probably would have gotten about 50 percent. So it's not as the he was beloved in a political sense. A lot of people strongly disagreed with him. But the answer to your question is it is very rare to have a politician who votes the way he feels who has no little voice in the back of his mind saying what are they polling on this. And is a man who can earn the respect and affection and genuine affection of people who fundamentally disagree with him.

You and I both know, all of us know that there is one guy in the Senate, whose name I won't mention, of whom it is said, a very smart guy, even his best friend can't stand him. There are a lot of politicians who survive on sheer will power and tenacity and they're smart. But boy the -- there is very cold steel in their eyes.

Paul Wellstone, in the Yiddish phrase, a mensch. He was a sweet nice guy who had very strong beliefs, but he wasn't a hater, he wasn't a zealot. And I think that's why you are hearing this remarkable mourning from people who couldn't have agreed with him less.

WOODRUFF: And, Candy, I am struck that , as you pointed out, it's not just Democrats, it's not just moderate Republicans, it's Republicans all the way on the right who were calling CNN today making sure that we knew that they cared about this man and that they're going to miss him.

CROWLEY: Sure, yes. And he was -- you know the other thing in talking about -- is he -- is he so different from the other people up there? The thing about Paul Wellstone that made you really appreciate him as a journalist is he never stopped. I mean, the camera would go off and he would be on another subject that he was passionate about.

He just -- he went on and on. I mean, that's what he liked to talk about in his private time. So he was -- you know he is also, as you know, that most of the time when you get a 15-second sound bite it is about half a sentence for most of the politicians. Paul Wellstone could get 12 ideas in 15 seconds. So he was great fun to cover.

WOODRUFF: All right. Well-spoken. Candy Crowley, our political correspondent, Jeff Greenfield, our senior analyst in New York, we thank you both. Appreciate it.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, before we go back to that terrible sniper case, we're going to remember Paul Wellstone with two of his former colleagues, Senator Patty Murray and retired Senator Paul Simon. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOODRUFF: More now on Senator Paul Wellstone. Who he was, the legacy he left, and what happens in the United States Senate. He was fighting a very closely-fought campaign in the state of Minnesota.

We'll talk to Senator Patty Murray, first of all. She is also chair of the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee. We will also talk with a former senator, Paul Simon, of Illinois.

Senator Murray, to you first. You and I talked a little bit earlier today. Have you seen anything quite like this? We have seen the tributes pouring in from Democrats, from Republicans. It's pretty remarkable.

SEN. PATTY MURRAY (D), WASHINGTON: Well, you know, Paul was so full of life, and he made everybody feel that they were important and that their voice was important, and I have seen him with individual people, empowering them, and I have seen him with crowds of a thousand, empowering the entire crowd to feel like they could make a difference, and I think that kind of life is hard to believe that it's gone. I think that's why it is just so difficult for all of us today.

WOODRUFF: Senator, former Senator Paul Simon, I should have said you are joining us from Carbondale, Illinois near your home in Illinois. You yourself known as a liberal Democrat, Senator Wellstone was unabashedly, proudly, a liberal Democrat. Is that a breed that we just don't see much of anymore, but before I ask you that -- what about Senator Wellstone himself?

PAUL SIMON, FORMER SENATOR: Well one of the points that Jeff and others have made, he was fun to be with. Bob Dole mentioned that. But I think that two things that you really think about, Paul Wellstone, are, number one, his compassion; and number two, his courage. If there is one ingredient that government really needs, it's courage.

WOODRUFF: And -- the other part of that question, we don't hear -- it's almost as if "liberal" has become a dirty word in American politics. Does it take more courage to be liberal?

SIMON: Well, I think that many people who are liberal today don't use the tag, but if you ask them where they stand on health care for all Americans, they say we're for it. You know, go on the issues, and I think -- what some people call a "liberal agenda" actually is very much alive, and still very much needed in the nation.

WOODRUFF: Senator Murray, as I mentioned, you are also the chair of the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, and even as the state of Minnesota, the nation, mourns the loss of Paul Wellstone with the election just barely 11 days away, surely thought, we know that thought is being given to what happens in the state of Minnesota. Can you tell us about any discussions you have had, or any discussions you are aware of, in terms of what happens to his name on the ballot.

MURRAY: Well, I think all of us are really focused today on talking to Paul's staff, his family, the many, many people who support and love Paul, and to give them our condolences and our thoughts and our prayers as we get through the next several days.

Certainly, we are very close to an election, and that is difficult for all of us to get over that hurdle and say what do we do next, and that will be something that will have to occur in the next couple days working with, of course, Paul's family in mine as well as his supporters and the party in Minnesota.

WOODRUFF: We can certainly understand that, given the fact that it was just today that the senator's plane went down.

Senator Simon, the name of Fritz Mondale has come up -- the two of you served in the Senate together. Any thought on whether Fritz Mondale -- the speculation has been, perhaps, the party might turn to Walter Mondale. Any thought about whether he would be willing to do this?

SIMON: I have no idea whether he would be willing to do it or not, but he would be superb. He could move into the Senate and serve immediately, and certainly, philosophically, is of the same bent as Paul Wellstone.

WOODRUFF: All right. We want to thank both former Senator Paul Simon and Senator Patty Murray. Thank you both for talking with us this evening. It is good to see you both. We appreciate it.

SIMON: Thank you, Judy.

MURRAY: Thanks, Judy.

WOODRUFF: And one other person we want to talk with tonight, and that is a reporter who spent yesterday covering Paul Wellstone -- traveling around the state as he campaigned in this tight Senate race. He is Alan Elsner, he is a national correspondent for Reuters. He told one of NEWSNIGHT's staff, he said, -- quote -- "I never do TV interviews, but I am doing this tonight to honor the memory of a nice guy."

Alan Elsner, thank you for being with us. Talk about Senator Wellstone yesterday. What did he do yesterday?

ALAN ELSNER, REPORTER, REUTERS: Well, it was a typical Wellstone day. It was his kind of joy of campaigning, as one of your previous guests mentioned. He was driving around. His first event was in Daddy-O's (ph), which was a kind of a cafe diner in Elk River.

But they got there a little early, so he just dove into a Denny's and started shaking people's hands, and I was struck by the fact that nobody seemed that surprised to see the senior senator of their state kind of bobbing up in front of them. You know, everyone said, Hi, Paul. How are you doing? You've got my vote, or maybe not, but nobody said, Oh, wow! It's Senator Wellstone! He just wasn't that kind of guy. Later he went into a Barnes and Noble, completely unscripted, just off the cuff. Let's go in there, see who is hanging around, talk to the people behind the coffee bar, talk to the people picking books.

It was the same kind of thing. He seemed to have a one-on-one relationship with everyone in the state of Minnesota as far as I could see.

WOODRUFF: He went into this campaign, earlier this year, he was considered vulnerable, maybe the most vulnerable Democratic incumbent, and yet he fought his way to a place, I think, where a lot of people thought he had a good chance to hold on to the seat. What were his views when you talked to him yesterday about what his chances were?

ELSNER: Well, I think he -- I was with him for about five or six hours, and a lot of it was off the record, but I think he was utterly convinced he was going to win. He put his trust in his ground operation, his grassroots support that was spread all over the state, and which is what got him elected the first time 12 years ago, and I think that he was absolutely convinced he was going to win, but he was really looking forward to the last week and a half of the campaign. He kept saying how much fun it was going to be.

And you know, there are a lot of politicians out there who just go through campaigning as a kind of chore, it is a drag, it is something you just got to do to get elected, but for Wellstone, it was just a blast. He was having fun.

WOODRUFF: And he was -- and being received well. Alan Elsner, one other thing. His -- his career had been -- he was a professor for 21 years at Carleton College in Minnesota. He went from teaching to politics. Was there anything of the professor in what you saw?

ELSNER: Well, you know, whenever I saw Paul Wellstone, I kind of left with a reading list. He would always have a few books that, You have to read this. You have to read -- yesterday he told me how I had to read this book, "Let Us Now Praise Famous Men," and there was another one that I can't remember, I wish I had written it down. He said it was like 1200 pages long, and he forced everyone at on to read it. He said I should read it too.

And another thing that came out yesterday, you know, came out that my father and his father were born in the same town in Russia, in Odessa, and that seemed to let loose a whole -- a whole set of memories about his father. His father was a -- had wanted to be a writer and an essayist, and he had almost made it, and I got the impression that Wellstone was kind of looking back a little bit, and he was also very concerned to tell me that he wanted to go to Jerusalem with his whole family. He had gone a long way away from organized Judaism, he certainly wasn't considered a supporter -- a prominent supporter of Israel, but he seemed concerned to tell me that there was still a Jewish heart beating in Paul Wellstone, and that was one of the things that I really took away from the day.

WOODRUFF: Alan Elsner, Reuters correspondent, who spent yesterday, Paul Wellstone's last full day of campaigning, he spent the day with Senator Wellstone. Alan, thank you very much for talking with us.

ELSNER: You are very welcome.

WOODRUFF: We appreciate it.

A little later on NEWSNIGHT, you will hear some more about the early career of Paul Wellstone, but there was much more going on in the world today, and for that and more, let's go back to my colleague Anderson Cooper in New York -- Anderson.

COOPER: Judy, thanks very much.

Coming up next, we're going to have a look at the sniper case. The legal process begins against two suspects. We also are following a breaking story out of Moscow right now. Reuters is reporting that Russian special forces have entered the theater, whereas many as 700 people are being held hostage by several dozen heavily armed Chechen rebels. The Reuters report also says that armored personnel carriers are seen going toward the theater, as are ambulances. Five hostages, or people who are believed to be hostages, were seen leaving the theater. But no other information at this time as to casualties or -- or the status of both the hostages and the rebels. Special forces have apparently entered the theater. Gunshots have been heard. And that is the latest from Moscow. We will bring you up to date if warranted. We'll have more news coming right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, how to bring justice in the sniper case? Or the question today -- who to bring justice? We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: And welcome back. You only need to remember the map of the sniper shootings to get an idea of just how complicated it will be to figure out just who will bring these two suspects to justice. Add in the fact that another shooting has now come to light, one back in September in Alabama. And here's what you have got: three states seven counties, the District of Columbia, not to mention the federal government, all trying to stake a claim. Here's Kathleen Koch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KOCH: The infighting began almost immediately. Which county, state or the federal government will get to try the alleged snipers first? Montgomery County's prosecutor stunned many when he announced he is filing six counts of first degree murder against both, and will seek the death penalty for John Muhammad.

DOUG GANSLER, MARYLAND STATE ATTORNEY: We obviously feel that it's appropriate to bring six first degree murder charges here in Montgomery County. We have six victims here in -- seven victims from Montgomery County and six of the homicides occurred here. It is our obligation and it's our duty to charge these men with those charges.

KOCH: Angry Justice Department officials insist there is no agreement. One saying Gansler is, quote, "trying to exploit tragedy for political gain." One factor, whether it's less likely the death penalty would be imposed or carried out in Maryland. Unlike Virginia and Alabama, Maryland law also forbids the execution of minors like Lee Boyd Malvo. Maryland's governor insists that despite his state's moratorium on executions, in this case the death penalty can and should be applied.

GOV. PARRIS GLENDENING, MARYLAND: They will not in any way be deterred or impacted by that moratorium.

KOCH: Alabama, too, announced its intentions early, saying it would also seek the death penalty if the sniper suspects are tried there for a September murder/robbery.

CHIEF JOHN WILSON, MONTGOMERY, ALABAMA POLICE: We'll make an example out of (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

KOCH: The two suspects are being held at an undisclosed location in Maryland.

Meanwhile, flowers and gifts flowed into Montgomery Police headquarters in an outpouring of public gratitude. Elementary school children crafted banners and cards to thank officers for keeping them safe.

OFFICE TOM BAKALIS, MONTGOMERY COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT: Brought a tear to my eye. This is what being a police officer, a Montgomery County police officer is all about. See the love and the appreciation, and just knowing that those kids can go outside and run around today like they did when I was there. It was all worth it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KOCH: Well, the two suspects are apparently not offering much information to their interrogators right now. Sources tell CNN that Malvo, as a matter of fact, tried to escape from his interrogation room at one point when investigators stepped outside for a few minutes by climbing up into a ceiling duct. And luckily, they were able to bring him back down. Obviously, he is in a more secure location now. And as for Muhammad, his next court appearance is schedule for Tuesday -- Anderson.

COOPER: Kathleen, do we know anything about how much they have said previously? Has Muhammad said anything?

KOCH: We are hearing only from our sources, and this really from Kelli Arena, that they are saying precious little why they did this or which one was the trigger person.

COOPER: All right. Kathleen Koch, thanks very much.

An additional tidbit tonight in the sniper story. "The Washington Post" is reporting that one phone number the snipers claimed to have called is CNN's Washington bureau. A CNN spokeswoman said to our knowledge, no one at CNN received such a call.

When we return, bringing Malvo and Muhammad to justice. Can three states come up with one plan? We'll talk with CNN's legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: We continue now on the sniper case and the legal battles that have already began. Legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin is here. Welcome, Jeffrey.

So you have several jurisdictions, District of Columbia, three different states, Alabama, Virginia and Maryland. You would think that they would all just sit down and kind of work it out. That doesn't seem to be happening.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it hasn't happened yet. But I think we can trust that it will. Look, prosecutorial turf battles are well-established, long-standing part of law enforcement. Happens all the time. In a case this high profile, I don't think these prosecutors can really afford to look like they are grasping. It did not start out especially well today.

COOPER: You had the Maryland state attorney coming forward and saying that they're going to be filing -- they're going to be obtaining arrest warrants on six...

TOOBIN: And that's after Alabama filed their case this morning. And the federal government is not happy. Everybody really needs to get into one room and say, look, this is what we're going to do. Let's behave like grown-ups.

COOPER: A source, an F.B.I. source said -- or a federal source said to Kelli Arena: "It's unfortunate, he, the Maryland state attorney, is trying to exploit tragedy for political gain." I mean, is there any other explanation for what the Maryland state attorney was doing today?

TOOBIN: Well, I don't think that's not necessarily entirely fair. I mean, look, these guys are under arrest. Charges have to be filed. They don't have to be filed today. They could have been filed Monday. So I don't think it's not necessarily the wrong thing to do. But you really should get everybody together and decide how to proceed in an orderly way so that you don't have stuff like this. I mean, these cases are simply too important to have this kind of bickering.

COOPER: And just because Maryland has come out and said that they're going to -- they've obtained these arrest warrants, doesn't mean they're going to be the first to prosecute?

TOOBIN: No, by no means. I mean, there is no race to the courthouse. Just because you file your paper first doesn't mean you get the defendant in your courtroom first.

COOPER: Right. Let's talk death penalty. I mean, the drum beats on this thing are pretty extreme. And the rhetoric, the level of rhetoric is kind of unheard of. You don't really have anyone saying that there shouldn't be the death penalty. It's all a question of who is going to be the toughest? TOOBIN: And who'll get it first. You know, it's funny, we live in an era right now where support for the death penalty had actually been falling. We have had all these people on death row with DNA evidence, been freed.

There really -- there's moratorium in Illinois as well as -- well as Maryland. The trend had been in that direction. But this crime was so horrible, that everybody, you know, it seems is rushing to say, Well you know Maryland is a bunch of wimps, they don't execute 17- year-olds. Most countries in the world don't execute 17-year-olds. So people need to take a deep breath on this one.

COOPER: This is going to be a long legal process.

TOOBIN: It certainly will. This is one safe prediction.

COOPER: Thanks very much.

Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT, a look back at the late Senator Paul Wellstone on a mission. The year 1990.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Finally from us, Paul Wellstone, as he might like to be remembered, the feisty campaigner. A look now at a campaign ad from back in 1990 that seems inspired by filmmaker Michael Moore and his hot pursuit of a G.M. executive in "Roger and Me." Wellstone desperately seeking the incumbent at the time, the one he'd go on to beat in a surprise upset. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WELLSTONE: When I decided to run for Senate, there was one thing I was looking forward to. So, as it turns out, were a lot of you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I expect there will be some debates.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'd love to see a debate with you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think there should be debates, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some people have more money than others to play with. If you debate you are kind of standing there without money.

WELLSTONE: Getting a hold of the person I had to debate however, proved easier said than done.

Is Rudy Boschowitz here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, he is not.

WELLSTONE: You don't want me going...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, we don't like strangers walking around.

WELLSTONE: First I tried his campaign headquarters.

The let me give you my home phone number too, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure, I'll make sure that he gets this. And we'll get back to you...

WELLSTONE: What do you think? Do you think we should have debates around the state so that people can see?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll get the message to him.

WELLSTONE: What do you think?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Glad to meet you.

WELLSTONE: About the debates?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks for coming out.

WELLSTONE: OK, OK. All right. I'll see you all.

Nice car.

Then I tried his office.

Is he here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is not here. He is returning from Milwaukee.

WELLSTONE: No luck.

I'll write my home phone. Is this your pen?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm not sure. Probably not.

WELLSTONE: That's a nice one. Well, I don't have a lot of money so I'll keep this for our campaign.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That will be fine.

WELLSTONE: I tried everything. I mean everything.

Is Rudy Boschowitz here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not today.

WELLSTONE: Did Rudy Boschowitz call, did any body get a call from him? Well, if he calls, everybody, let me know. Hey, you guys.

OK, well maybe I can find him somewhere then. Thank you very much. OK, bye-bye.

They say he is in the cities. I don't know where he is. He's not in Minneapolis. They say he is campaigning. Then I go to St. Paul. They say he is in Milwaukee. Rest assured there will be debates on the key issues of this campaign. Look for upcoming dates and places. And in the meantime, if you see a silver-haired gentleman in a plaid shirt mention I'm looking for him.

Yes, information, do you have the telephone number of a Rudy Boschwitz, please, in Plymouth.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Before we go, want to update you on the hostage crisis in Moscow. CNN's Ryan Chilcote correspondent is there and back on the phone for us -- Ryan.

Ryan, go ahead.

CHILCOTE: All right, well I'm right here in front of the theater where a very dramatic hostage crisis situation is developing. This has been going on for the last two days, we have an estimated 700 hostages inside the building being held by some 40 -- 40 gunmen.

We understand that there has been -- well obviously I can tell you that I've seen quite a bit of movement outside the theater in the last -- well let me show you these APCs standing here, behind me. Well the APCs have actually moved up the road. Those troops you see there are from Russia's Interior Troops Division from the Elite Dzerzhinsky Division. I've seen them scurrying up the road. We've seen APCs moving towards that theater and we've been hearing reports that from hostages that were -- were fleeing the building that some of the troops might have actually been moving up in the direction of the building.

And we also have reports that at least two hostages have been killed and two wounded in recent hours here.

COOPER: All right, Ryan Chilcote, thank you very much from Moscow. Obviously it a developing situation. And we will check back in with you as the evening progresses. Thanks very much, Ryan.

Just to update you, Reuters is reporting that Special Forces Troops from Russian Interior Ministry Troops have actually moved into the theater. Ryan Chilcote reporting that he's seen a large number of APCs moving towards the theater. There's continued reports of gunfire. Ryan has heard a report of two hostages being killed. There is nothing else known at this time.

That's about it for us here at NEWSNIGHT. Thanks very much for joining us. Good night.

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