Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Feds File Charges Against Muhammad, Could Lead to Death Penalty; Bush Administration Urging Kremlin to Tell What Gas Was Used in Standoff

Aired October 29, 2002 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, HOST: And good evening, again, everyone.
We admit to some confusion tonight, not for the first time. The governor of Maryland uncomfortable it seems with the way the death penalty is administered in his state, declared a moratorium so the state could look at some of the issues involved. And there are issues involved.

No matter where you stand in the death penalty, there have been enough cases where men had been wrongly convicted to give anyone pause, or at least so we hope. In any case, the governor declared this moratorium and Maryland stopped executing people while the study was being done. This was all in that period we can now refer to as BTS, before the sniper.

The other day, the governor said the moratorium wouldn't apply to the sniper case. He said it only applies to old cases. Call me cynical, but I have a feeling there's a bit of politics at play here. Either there are institutional problems with the death penalty in Maryland or there aren't.

Could it be just the possibility that the governor, faced with a certain outcry from people who want the death penalty here, caved in to a political reality? Now to us it looks a bit silly. And what is really strange is that he didn't have to do it at all. Even in the climate of this moment there was not going to be a trial, a verdict, a sentence and a set of appeals in the sniper case by April, when the moratorium was set to expire.

There is no moratorium on capital cases, just on executions. So if the flip flop wasn't political, what else could it have been?

On to The Whip and the day's news. The federal government weighs in on the sniper case. Kelli Arena on that tonight. Kelli, a headline, please.

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, today the federal government entered a legal fray filing charges against John Allen Muhammad. Charges that could lead to the death penalty.

BROWN: Kelli, thank you.

On to Moscow and the hostage crisis and the actions of the Russian government. John King tonight on how the White House has responded to it all. John, a headline from you.

JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, privately the administration is urging the Kremlin to be more forthcoming to tell it what kind of gas was used to end the deadly standoff. The administration is worried if Russian troops have it, perhaps the Russian mob and terrorists could get it. But publicly, the president is telling top aides no criticism of President Putin, a man he views as a key ally in the war on terrorism.

BROWN: John, thank you.

Out in the Midwest tonight, a memorial service for Minnesota Senator Paul Wellstone and the others killed in the plane crash last Friday. Jonathan Karl is following the political twists and turns that no one could have expected in this race. Jon, a headline from you tonight.

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the Wellstone memorial, which is still going on, looks more like a political rally than a funeral, as Wellstone's friends and his former staffers come together with the rallying cry of winning next week's election in Paul Wellstone's name.

BROWN: Jon, thank you.

And on to Florida now to end The Whip, and the Haitians who swam to shore today by the hundreds. Mark Potter covered that all afternoon. He's with us tonight. Mark, a headline from you.

MARK POTTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, more than 200 Haitians on a grossly overloaded freighter came ashore near Miami and are now in detention awaiting hearings on whether they can stay in the United States. Their chances may not be very good -- Aaron.

BROWN: Mark, thank you. Back with all of your shortly.

Also coming up on the program tonight, the Lieutenant Governor of Maryland, Democrat Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, she is in a very tight race for governor there. We will talk to her about guns, the death penalty and the sniper case.

Jeff Greenfield tonight on a political story that has been marked by tragedy. Not Minnesota, this time. This time, Missouri. Jeanne Carnahan trying to keep her Senate seat two years after taking her husband's spot after he died in a plane crash. This is a very tight race.

And a bitterly divisive issue on the ballot in Oklahoma. Something turning brother against brother, chicken against chicken. Whether to ban cock fighting.

And tonight, as well, free speech on a Wisconsin campus, where the issues are race and murder and young killers. Did the rules change?

All that and more in the hour ahead. We begin with the case against John Muhammad.

He appeared in federal court today and heard the charges, 20 counts, with one clear aim, according to the attorney general, to make him pay the ultimate price the government can demand. And with jurisdictions from Washington state to Maryland fighting over Muhammad and his young friend, today the federal government staked a powerful claim.

We begin tonight with CNN's Kelli Arena.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARENA (voice-over): At least one of the federal charges against John Allen Muhammad carries a death penalty sentence. And according to Attorney General John Ashcroft, ensuring that penalty is the overriding concern.

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: There are already people who are saying that they don't think the ultimate penalties ought to be available, whether they're editorialist or others who don't believe in the death penalty. I believe that the ultimate sanction ought to be available here.

ARENA: Charges in the federal complaints include the use of a firearm during a crime of violence, conspiracy to commit offenses against the United States, conspiracy to affect interstate commerce by extortion, and discharging a firearm into a school zone. :

ASHCROFT: It alleges the most severe and atrocious of crimes. It provides a basis for additional investigation.

ARENA: Muhammad was read the charges against him in court and said he understood them.

JIM WYDA, MUHAMMAD'S ATTORNEY: At this point we still have not heard any evidence in a court of law against Mr. Muhammad. We know a few things at this point. Mr. Muhammad is a 41-year-old father. He was an American who served in the Persian Gulf. He was honorably discharged from the United States military. He has never been convicted of another crime at any time, anywhere.

ARENA: The government's complaint does not name the younger suspect, 17-year-old John Malvo, because he is a juvenile. But it is expected that he too will be charged with federal capital offenses though he cannot federally face the death penalty. The federal complaint follows the filing of charges by four counties in Maryland and Virginia. Justice Department sources say a county in Virginia will probably get the chance to go to court first.

PAUL BUTLER, FMR. FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Virginia jurors are much more likely to sentence someone to death than Maryland. And executions are much more likely to be carried out in Virginia, including executions of minors.

(END VIDEOTAPE) ARENA: The government affidavit alleges that Muhammad referred to Malvo as sniper, at least according to one acquaintance. That seems to support allegations by some investigators that the juvenile was the shooter in at least one of the attacks -- Aaron.

BROWN: Kelli, just if you can, who will make this decision on who prosecutes first? Is it the federal government's call or some sort of negotiation that has to go on?

ARENA: Well, it is ultimately the Justice Department's call. These two individuals are in federal custody, although there are lots of discussions going on among the involved prosecutors and justice officials. But at the end of the day, Aaron, it is the attorney general who gets to make the call.

BROWN: Because the federal government would then deliver the alleged snipers to the jurisdictions...

ARENA: That's right. Transfer from federal custody to whichever jurisdiction's custody.

BROWN: Kelli, thank you. Kelli Arena tonight.

A quick update now from Moscow. The Russian government still isn't saying what kind of gas was used in that hostage rescue, though doctors now have a pretty good idea. If they're right, many of the 115 people who died from the gas could have been saved. They believe, and United States officials agree with this, the gas has properties similar to a morphine-based drug that is used in hospital anesthetics. They figured it out after trying a number of different treatments. And the one for morphine is the one that worked.

Experts say if victims had gotten it quickly on the scene, many would have survived. But there was no medical attention on the scene.

One other note, officials now confirm an American is among the dead. Sandy Booker (ph) was an electrician for General Motors in Oklahoma. He had come to Moscow to bring his Russian fiance back to the United States.

The reaction now at the White House and the balancing act for the president. In private there is concern about the loss of life and especially all the secrecy surrounding the gas of the Russians, says one reporter the Russians used. As one reporter put it, the Russians are acting awfully Soviet these days. But if the administration has private concerns, it also has very public objectives on terrorism, on Iraq, and it needs Russia's help to achieve them both.

Again, our Senior White House Correspondent, John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): The President set the tone with a call to President Putin early in the hostage standoff and has told top aides repeatedly in recent days to be nothing but supportive. ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The President makes no mistake about who is to blame for this. The people who put people in harm's way are the terrorists who took the lives.

KING: The solidarity with the man Mr. Bush calls "friend" comes despite Russia's refusal to tell the United States what kind of gas it used to retake a Moscow theater from Chechen rebels. 115 hostages were killed by the gas. And U.S. Ambassador, Alexander Virshbau (ph), was quoted Tuesday as saying, "It is clear that with perhaps a little more information, at least a few more of the hostages may have survived."

Administration sources tell CNN the State Department quickly told the ambassador there should be no public criticism of the Russian government. Mr. Bush is known for his loyalty, and President Putin has been a steadfast ally on the war on terrorism. Mr. Putin did not object, for example, when the Pentagon moved forces into the former Soviet republic of (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Tajikistan and Uzbekistan to help with the war in Afghanistan. Or when the United States sent military personnel to train special forces in Georgia, which has tense relations with Moscow.

And Mr. Bush wants Russia's support now in confronting Iraq and in isolating North Korea because of its nuclear weapons program.

JIM STEINBERG, FMR. DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: I think we're in a posture where we're not likely to be asking too many questions. But I think it is not in our long-term interest to ignore the problems here.

KING: U.S. officials believe the gas was fentanyl, a fast-acting opiate. And one worry is that if Russian special forces have the drug in gas form, that the Russian mob or terrorist might be able to get their hands on it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Senior officials say the administration is making it quite clear to President Putin that it believes it is urgent that he be more forthcoming. But in private, top aides say here a President, who himself has taken some controversial steps to fight the war on terrorism is not about to openly criticize a leader he considers not only an ally, but a friend -- Aaron.

BROWN: Does anybody at the White House know or believe they know why the Russians have not said what the gas is?

KING: President Putin is a former KGB chief. He is a man prone to secrecy. They believe that he will react to public pressure in Russia, let alone this international pressure, and come clean more. What the White House argument, Aaron, is that Mr. Putin, you would quiet the criticism if you explain the tough choice you faced. No one here questioning that the Russians had to react to the hostage crisis. They say President Putin should be more open about his choices, but they also say this is a cultural question. The Soviet Union is now Russia, it has been a democracy for some time. But it does not have open press, it does not have open government. The transparency that we're used to in the United States is still very much a work in progress in Moscow.

BROWN: And prior to September 11 a year ago, what did the United States -- how did the United States government refer to the Chechen separatists? Were they called terrorists then, or is that a word that came into play post 9/11?

KING: That is the key point. Everyone in this administration acknowledges September 11 changed everything. Prior to September 11, the Clinton administration and the Bush administration more publicly critical of the Russian government, saying, yes, there are some terrorist organizations in Chechnya, but overall it is a political issue, a civil civilian strife issue and that it should be settled politically.

That is still the administration's position, that it should be settled politically. But after September 11, the rules changed. This government still has people held in Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere who have not been charged for more than a year. The changes the president has implemented in how he defines terrorism here at home have broad international ramifications, and we're looking at one of them right now.

BROWN: John, thank you very much. Our Senior White House Correspondent, John King, with us tonight.

More now on the U.S. effort at the U.N. Security Council. The Russians and the French still publicly opposing a tough American resolution on Iraq. But today the administration appeared to back away from forcing an early vote on the measure. Instead, the order of the day and perhaps the rest of the week seems to be more arm twisting, more wordsmithing and a lot of back and forth in French.

For the latest on the situation at the Security Council, we turn to CNN's Richard Roth at the U.N. Richard, good evening.

RICHARD ROTH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening. Bon soir, Aaron.

The urgency not seen here tonight at the U.N. Security Council. The planned meeting to go over the resolution again put off until tomorrow morning. Perhaps the most significant development will be in Washington tomorrow. Hans Blix, the chief U.N. weapons inspector in Iraq, and Mohammed al Barade (ph), the executive director of the International Atomic Energy Agency, will be at the White House for talks with Vice President Cheney, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, and likely President Bush.

Mr. Blix was just in Moscow making the rounds with key permanent members of the Security Council. In the past, U.S. officials have been critical of Mr. Blix, perhaps questioning his aggressiveness. Now it seems like if inspectors are indeed going to go into Iraq, they might as well make the inspection mandate as tough as possible. Here in New York, the major difference business between the U.S. and France, and it's over language, tricky words like material breach, serious consequence. It may seem like word games to other people, but this is international law and years from now, no matter what happens, in Iraq, diplomats, the world will look back on these resolutions and follow the words indeed say on the paper.

U.N. Secretary General Annan talked with me about President Bush's criticisms that the U.N. is taking too long, comparing it to the League of Nations. Mr. Annan said these deliberations take time. Secretary of State Powell said they're still hoping to find the bridging language with France, but he raised the strong possibility that a vote won't happen until next week -- Aaron.

BROWN: Richard, au revoir. Richard Roth at the U.N. tonight -- thank you.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT: cockfighting. Inside the fighting ring and the debate that's going on in Oklahoma. It's a ballot initiative there.

Also ahead, the D.C.-area sniper shootings and the effect on politics. We'll talk with the lieutenant governor of the state of Maryland, a candidate for governor, Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: If you're looking to see the impact that the sniper story had on Maryland politics, the sniper tragedy, you can find plenty of evidence of it on the airwaves in campaign ads in a very tight race for governor. The Democratic candidate, Lieutenant Governor Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, put out ads late last week, describing her Republican opponent as, "the NRA candidate for governor." Soon after, Republican Congressman Robert Ehrlich criticized Ms. Kennedy's record -- Ms. Townsend's record on crime in his own attack ad.

We want to talk about politics, guns, the death penalty, where the sniper suspect should be tried, with Kathleen Kennedy Townsend. We of course also extend an invitation to Congressman Ehrlich, and we hope and expect that he'll come talk to us before this week is out.

The lieutenant governor joins us from Washington tonight. Nice to see you. I apologize for messing up the introduction. Let's talk about...

KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND (D), LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, MARYLAND: You know what, a lot of people get it mixed up. You're not alone.

BROWN: That I'm sure of.

KENNEDY TOWNSEND: It doesn't matter at all.

BROWN: Serious business here. You supported the moratorium on executions in your state. Clearly that means that you had some concerns there might be institutional problems, but you said in this case it is appropriate. How do you square these two positions?

KENNEDY TOWNSEND: Very easily. I have always said and I have always been for the death penalty. But I think there needs to be a moratorium, when there is a study taking place as to whether the death penalty is applied in a fair and just manner. There is no question that in this case that this is a death penalty case and should be applied here.

BROWN: So the question has to do with whether these other cases were appropriate death penalty cases or whether the trials themselves were fair?

KENNEDY TOWNSEND: This is all -- this is what the study is looking into. Just so you understand what is going on in Maryland, there's a study that is taking place to see how the death penalty has been applied in Maryland. During that time, I thought it made sense to have a moratorium, because you would hate to have someone executed and then the study determined that the death penalty wasn't applied in a fair and just manner. That's a very, very serious consequence, and you don't want to second-guess yourself, especially if the study comes out and says that it wasn't very fairly applied.

So I believe that the study, which is supposed to come in with its findings in December, the legislature will then have the opportunity over the next legislative session to work with the next governor to figure out is the death penalty applied? How should it be applied more fairly and justly? If it has to be. You know we don't even know the results of the study.

And the moratorium, I had always said, would be lifted by the end of next April. It does not apply to these cases that are going forward, it really only applies to waiting, to waiting to execute people while they're on death row while the study is taking place.

BROWN: And just one more quick one on the death penalty and we'll move on.

KENNEDY TOWNSEND: Sure.

BROWN: Can you tell me -- Maryland law has, I think, ten circumstances in capital cases where the death penalty is considered a factor. Which one of those ten or which ones of those ten applies to the sniper case?

KENNEDY TOWNSEND: Well, we would have to look at them. But my belief is that it's clearly -- this is one of the most heinous crimes in American history, and Maryland law would definitely elect, be applied in this case.

BROWN: OK. Just a kind of overview here. Has this horrible tragedy that took place in Maryland and in Virginia, has it become the overriding issue in the campaign?

KENNEDY TOWNSEND: It is an important issue, but there are a number of other important issues. People want to know what we're going to do on education. And I have a plan to reduce class size and have early childhood education. People want to know about prescription drugs wherever I go across the state of Maryland. And I have a plan to reduce the cost of prescription drugs from 28 to 55 percent for 200,000 seniors that don't have prescription drugs.

People across our state care very much about the Chesapeake Bay and our beautiful environment and, again, I'm the candidate who wants to protect our bay. This is, of course, an important question, which is how are we going to have common sense gun laws in the state of Maryland and how are we going to make sure they're enforced? And, again, there is a big difference, as you know, between my record and my plans and my opponent's.

I have fought very hard to have common sense gun laws for a long period of time. And today I announced a proposal to make sure that we could have ballistic fingerprinting for assault weapons. We are already one of two states in the country that have it for handguns, but I think it makes sense to have it for assault weapons as well.

I also propose that assault weapons be regulated by a gun roster board so that we have experts deciding whether a gun meets the definition of an assault weapon. Right now, we have a federal law, but, as we saw in this case, it is easy to get around that federal law by making adjustments in the shape of the gun and it gets around the intent of the law, and I don't think that's is the right thing to do.

BROWN: Ms. Townsend, just briefly as you can, because we're really tight tonight, would these have been issues? Would you have raised them? Would the ads have run? Would they have been issues if the sniper tragedy had not happened?

KENNEDY TOWNSEND: Well, we've always had -- certainly were having the questions on both of these, whether we should have ballistic fingerprinting was raised earlier this summer, because when -- and the gun roster board, because both of these issues had been raised by my opponent when he was asked which laws should be looked at and maybe even changed or repealed. He pointed to these two laws.

So, obviously, interestingly enough, these are the two laws that he had raised earlier this summer as objects for repeal. And I'm saying, no, not only shouldn't it be repealed, they should be expanded.

BROWN: Ms. Townsend, thank you for joining us.

Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, the democratic candidate for the governor in Maryland. And, again, we hope the Republican will join us before the week is out. The invitation is out there and we assume it will be accepted.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, crying foul over cockfighting. The issue hits the ballot in Oklahoma.

And straight ahead, hundreds of asylum seekers along Florida's coast. Certainly the most dramatic pictures of the day. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We were, like many of you, we suspect, watching the pictures come in from south Florida this afternoon, as hundreds of Haitians poured over the side of a boat into the bay and tried to swim to shore. One shot in particular tore our heart out. A little girl was being lowered into the water and she had on this beautiful white dress as if she was going to church. As if her parents really understood the wonder of this place, the United States.

(UNINTELLIGIBLE), it seemed to us. And through this little girl they were paying their respects. Did they know, we wonder, that barring a miracle, they and their little child would not be allowed to stay? Here's CNN's Mark Potter.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

POTTER (voice-over): The 50-foot wooden coastal freighter, grossly overloaded with more than 200 Haitian migrants, ran around within sight of the downtown skyline, about 20 yards south of the bridge between Miami and Key Biscayne.

As the boat reached shallow water, the Haitians began jumping overboard. Men, women and children desperate to reach dry land. Some of them took off their shoes, threw them as far as they could and then retrieved them on shore. Some hit deeper water, couldn't swim and had to be rescued by the U.S. Coast Guard. Most, however, made it easily to shore and began running through traffic on the bridge. Some approaching motorists apparently seeking rides to leave the area.

JOE CETESTIN, NORTH MIAMI MAYOR: They were really desperate, it shows clearly in their faces. And it was very unhuman the way they were flying off the ship and I hope the United States would give them the proper care and understand these people are looking and seeking for a better life.

POTTER: Local and federal authorities quickly converged, sealed off the roadway and began to round up the Haitians. They were taken into custody and are being held in an immigration detention facility where INS officials say they will be given food, water and clothing before they are questioned about whether they have a credible fear of persecution in Haiti and the right to political asylum in the U.S.

Legal and political activist are urging fair treatment.

LIDA RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF, PRESIDENT ACLU GREATER MIAMI: If they do demonstrate that political fear, what should be happening is that they should be released to relatives or friends in the community.

POTTER: As police rounded up the migrants, a handful of Haitian- Americans protested U.S. immigration policy which gives special privileges to Cuban immigrants. Haitians are often seen as economic migrants and are frequently sent back to Haiti.

CHERYL LITTLE, FLORIDA MIGRANT ADVOCACY CENTER: They're not from a communist country and so folks tend to assume that they're simply economic refugees. They don't have the kind of political clout that a lot of other groups have. And frankly, I think the color of their skin has something to do with it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

POTTER: Immigration advocates say that they will ask INS officials to release most of those Haitians shortly so that they can get lawyers and more effectively argue their asylum claims.

But they also concede that even if that does happen, it is highly likely that most of the Haitians will be sent back to their home country -- Aaron?

BROWN: Mark, thank you. Mark Potter in Miami tonight.

An update quickly on the investigation into American Airlines Flight 587, the crash last year in Queens, New York, happened just months after September 11. A transcript of the cockpit recording was released today. It started the hearings in Washington. It showed that the crew seemed unaware that the tailfin of the jet had fallen off as they tried to control the plan.

Investigators believe the swings and the rudder whipped the tail so severely the tail broke off. The entire flight of 587 lasted 103 seconds.

Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, Missouri's Senate race and why it's under the very watchful eye of one very divided Congress.

Also, a big name Republican is asked not to attend Paul Wellstone's memorial service in Minneapolis tonight. That story as NEWSNIGHT continues from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Strange mix today in Minnesota -- strange but as it turns out, not all that rare. Personal and public tragedy playing out against a political backdrop.

With just a week to go before one of the tightest elections in memory, sources tell us former Vice President and former Senator Walter Mondale has agreed to take the late Senator Paul Wellstone's place on the ballot. He'll make a formal statement tomorrow.

Tonight though, he went to the memorial service along with fellow Democrats and Republicans and all the people going who will be going at it hammer and nail to Election Day.

As we said, strange mix. Here's CNN's Jonathan Karl.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KARL (voice-over): The overflow crowd came as much to celebrate Paul Wellstone's life as to mourn his death.

In attendance, a political who's who, including Bill and Hillary Clinton, Al Gore and more than half the United States Senate, including Republican leader Trent Lott. Noticeably absent was Vice President Cheney. The Wellstone family declined his offer to attend.

A campaign-style video made for the service closed with a reminder that Wellstone's death came in the midst of a hard fought Senate campaign, a campaign that is about to begin again.

NORM COLEMAN (R-MN), SENATE CANDIDATE: We will lead the way. This is the state I love. This is the state I represent and I intend to win this Senate race.

KARL: Democrats believe former Vice President Walter Mondale is the person to pick up where Wellstone left off. Mondale is expected to be tapped to replace Wellstone as the Democratic nominee at a hastily planned convention Wednesday night.

Former Senator Frank Lautenberg says he understands why the former vice president would like to go back to the Senate.

FRANK LAUTENBERG, FORMER SENATOR: Walter Mondale once said something to me, after he served as vice president and I asked him if that was the best job he ever had. He said, No, no. He said, the best job one can have in government is in the United States Senate.

KARL: Democrats say the old green bus Wellstone used as a campaign trademark will be put back to work for their new candidate in a race they say will be about Wellstone and his legacy than about the person running to replace him. The beat up old bus was on display outside the arena where the overflow crowd remembered Wellstone, fully aware there isn't much time to mourn with an election just a week away.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: As for the Republicans, their candidate Norm Coleman suspended all campaign activity on Friday after news of Wellstone's death. But he his the ground running tomorrow morning, 6:15 wheels up, he goes around the state continuing that Republican campaign. There's only six days of campaigning left and they'll be using every minute of it here in Minnesota, Aaron.

BROWN: Jon, thank you. Jonathan Karl in Minneapolis tonight.

President Bush will be in Minnesota campaigning for Mr. Coleman on Sunday.

In many ways, the vote this year in Minnesota echoes the one two years ago in Missouri.

There a popular politician died three weeks before the election but his name stayed on the ballot and a deal was made so that if he won, beating the now Attorney General John Ashcroft, his wife would take the seat. He did, she did and now Jean Carnahan is trying to hang on to that seat as if control of the Senate hangs in the balance, which it may.

Here's CNN's Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It mirrors America more than any other state.

Its six million people crowd into big cities and spread out over farms and small towns.

It lays claim to birthing the blues. While the town of Branson draws millions to the mecca of country music.

And if you want to know where America is politically, you come to Missouri, the state that would with one small exception, voted for the winner of every presidential contest of the 20th Century.

And this year, once again, Missouri is an American microcosm producing one of the closest, most hotly contested Senate races anywhere.

The incumbent, 68-year-old Jean Carnahan, who was named to fill the Senate seat won by her late husband, Governor Mel Carnahan. He died in a plane crash three weeks before the 2000 election and he wound up with more votes than Senator John Ashcroft did.

That inexperience, says St. Louis Post-Dispatch reporter Deidre Sheshgreen is a target for Republicans.

DEIDRE SHESHGREEN, "ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH" REPORTER: The Republicans have tried to raise questions about her competence during her two years in the Senate, suggesting that she was essentially lost in the Senate.

GREENFIELD: While her campaign is working feverishly to get out the Democratic base vote, minorities and labor, Carnahan stresses a more centrist message.

SEN. JEAN CARNAHAN (D), MISSOURI: I have worked with the president. In fact, I voted for the tax cut. I voted with him on the education "Leave No Child Behind" program and I have brought -- worked with him and voted with him on the defense issues.

GREENFIELD: Her opponent: 46-year-old Jim Talent, here at a Republican fund raiser with the First Lady.

With eight years in the state legislature, eight more in Congress and a photo finish loss for governor two years ago, he is a rare challenger with more experience than the incumbent.

REP. JIM TALENT (R), MISSOURI: I think my record is what I have been emphasizing the most. I have a strong record of performance in the House. I chaired the small business committee.

GREENFIELD: The commercials, unsurprisingly, stress somewhat harsher themes.

Carnahan is anti-Missouri.

COMMERCIAL ANNOUNCER: She admits the Bush energy plans would create Missouri jobs, but then votes against him.

GREENFIELD: Talent's endangering the elderly.

COMMERCIAL ANNOUNCER: Jim Talent co-sponsored legislation that takes $3 trillion from the Social Security trust fund and gives it to Wall Street to invest instead.

GREENFIELD: In their debate last week, Carnahan challenged Talent's criticisms of her votes on defense and national security.

CARNAHAN: I would not doubt your patriotism nor would I doubt the patriotism of any member of the United States State Senate, Republican or Democrat, and I don't want you to doubt mine again.

TALENT: You don't question anybody's motives much less their patriotism when you talk about votes.

GREENFIELD (on camera): As if the Senate race isn't close enough, tens of thousands of provisional ballots may be cast on election day. That could mean it will take days, maybe even a couple of weeks before Missouri knows who its senator is, and before America knows which party controls the U.S. Senate.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, St. Louis.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, holding welfare responsible for children gone bad, very bad. The issue, the controversy, and the university student who started it all, when NEWSNIGHT continues from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Busy morning ahead on "AMERICAN MORNING." Here with an example is Paula Zahn.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR (on camera): Thanks, Aaron. Tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," we are going to have all the latest developments in the sniper investigation, and we're going to take a look at an intriguing announcement that scientists have actually found a gene that causes obesity. If that's the case, a pill to fight fat may not be far behind.

We are all for that, and we are going to cover this from a bunch of different angles tomorrow, starting at 7:00 Eastern time. Hope you join then -- Aaron.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Paula, thank you. And ahead on NEWSNIGHT, a battle over free speech. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We want to revisit a story that shocked all of us last month, the man in the inner city of Milwaukee savagely beaten to death, allegedly by a mob of teenagers, some younger than that, kids using shovels and pipes and baseball bats and boards. It was one of those stories that screams the question, Why? Why did these kids do it? It's something editorial writers have been trying to answer, including one student at the University of Wisconsin at Waukesha, except the answer he has given, and especially the way he has given it has created an enormous controversy on campus.

Dan Hubert believes it is welfare that has destroyed responsible families and parents. African-American leaders have not done enough to promote a sense of right and wrong. Dan joins us from Milwaukee tonight, along with Natalie Vance of the African-American Union, a student group on the campus -- welcome to both of you.

Dan, let's start with you. You wrote, "Stop the welfare payments and you'll stop the madness." The madness you refer to is the killing, but more than that. Is that literally what you meant?

That is a bad start. Dan, can you hear me? Can you hear?

DAN HUBERT, ASSISTANT EDITOR, "OBSERVER": There is nothing.

BROWN: Apparently not. OK.

I'll tell you what. Let's try and fix and that, we'll go on to something else, and we'll come back to that without the big windup.

Quickly, a couple of stories from around the world tonight.

Terrible fire in Vietnam, at least 54 people were killed in Ho Chi Minh City. More than 120 injured in a fire that began in a disco. The death toll expected to rise, no word yet on what caused the fire, but several big fires in recent years in the city have been blamed on electrical problems.

More trouble in Italy tonight at Mt. Etna, Europe's most active volcano. If it wasn't dangerous, it would beautiful, isn't it? The volcano has been spouting enormous amounts of lava and ash. Today a violent earthquake hit the area. More and 1,000 people have fled their homes. The Italian government has issued a state of emergency, but at this point, there is no word on any serious injuries.

Having done that, let's go back to Milwaukee. I'm going to assume that everyone remembers what we're about to do, OK?

Dan, let's go back to you, Dan Hubert out there in Milwaukee. You wrote that if you stop -- I want to get the quote right -- "stop the welfare payments, you will stop the madness" -- the killing, the drug use, the rest -- is that literally what you meant?

HUBERT: I felt that my article reflected that ending the welfare would -- instead of driving a family apart, would bring it back together again. I feel that welfare payments in general really drive the family apart, and these kids didn't have parents who are around to give them the attention in the time that they needed. As far as -- that's my point.

BROWN: And what has happened since is that there's been a considerable backlash. You have been called racist, there are people who have called for your expulsion from the university, correct?

HUBERT: Yes, that is true. I feel very hurt by that, if there's one thing that you can't call me, it is a racist because I stood up -- in my article, I was standing up for Charlie Young Jr., who was beaten to death by a mob of monsters, and for a white man to defend a black man and then for me to be called a racist, you're going to have to change the word -- the definition of racism to make that fit for me.

BROWN: All right. Let me turn to Natalie for a second, and Dan, we'll come back to you in a moment.

Natalie, what trouble do you have with -- is it the theme of the article you have a problem with, or the way it was laid out?

NATALIE VANCE, AFRICAN-AMERICAN UNION: My problem with the article was mainly the generalizations and stereotypes that were in the article. To me, the article wasn't based on fact, it was just based on an incident that took place, and then I felt that Dan took that incident and went off on his own tangent about how he felt about African-Americans, and there's one thing to base an article or an editorial on fact, and then give an opinion, but to not establish an audience, to not give any facts, but to go off on how you felt about it, I just thought that that was wrong to not have it based on any fact at all.

BROWN: And do you think he should be expelled? Do you think the university should stop funding the newspaper? Do you think any of those punishments for this are appropriate?

VANCE: You know what -- no, I don't. Expelling Dan would not fix the problem. He had every right to say what he said in that article. I mean, I am a firm believer in the First Amendment right to freedom of speech, and I believe that he was speaking his mind. I believe that the way Dan chose to go about it, and the things that he said is punishment in itself. The things that he is going through now, after what he did, and having to deal with the anger of not only the African-American students, but the Caucasian students, the Hispanic students -- that is punishment enough, I believe.

BROWN: Dan, I read -- and you'll tell me if this is accurate -- that you had some concern that what you wrote might ultimately affect your desire, at some point in life, to run for public office, and you have -- apologized, I think, is a fair word, you have apologized for the way you said what you said, not necessarily the theme you were writing, but what you said. I am just wondering how sincere the apology is, given your concern about how it might affect the future.

HUBERT: I am sincerely sorry for the people who were offended at it. I don't think that I stereotyped or generalized anybody or anything. What I said was based on 2002 -- I'm sorry, 2000 Census Bureau data, it is based also on an article in the "Milwaukee Journal- Sentinel," and also some other non-profit organizations, their Web sites their information that was provided to me.

I am sorry that people are offended over this. I am not sorry for my defense for my defense of Charlie Young and I'm not sorry for standing up for what I believe in.

BROWN: Dan, Natalie, I thank you both. It's an interesting issue and I know the university's working hard to sort it all out. Thank you both for your time tonight. Thank you.

Still ahead on the program, cockfighting, is it animal cruelty or just plain fun? Voters in Oklahoma will get to decide that, we'll show you the debate when we wrap it up on NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Finally from us tonight, one more political story, lots of interesting initiatives on the ballot on Tuesday including 687 in Oklahoma. Boy, it certainly has the ruffled feathers on the rooster lobby.

Here's CNN's Candy Crowley with an explanation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There are 202 statewide ballot measures this election season.

In Oklahoma, State Question 687 is for the birds.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The issue is human cruelty. The purpose in slashing these birds to death in front of these crowds is for gambling and for the entertainment of people.

CROWLEY: Yes, cockfighting is legal in Oklahoma. Has been since the 60's, when a court ruled that animal cruelty laws do not apply to chickens because chickens are not animals.

Animal rights activists have been crying foul ever since.

Enough with the puns. This is serious stuff to Janet Halliburton, animal rights' activists, lawyer.

JANET HALLIBURTON, ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: These cockfighters involve their children in the cockfights. And so the children see these animals being slashed to death for gambling purposes. And this desensitization makes it more likely that there's going to be human violence involved at some other stage..

CROWLEY: Six eighty-seven would make cockfighting and raising cockfighters illegal. It is a big bucks battle.

COMMERCIAL ANNOUNCER: Knives strapped to bird's legs. Placed in a pit to fight to the death. They call this sport?

CROWLEY: Oklahoma City, with its faux river walk, trendy restaurants and yes, coffee shops, may seem an unlikely spot for a devise debate over cockfighting. But the truth is you don't have to leave city limits to find a view and views that are very different.

Devin Smith, husband, father, radio ad salesman, game foul breeder, cockfighter.

DEVIN SMITH, FREEDOM OF CHOICE ADVOCATE: Well, I enjoy the competition of it, just to be honest with you. There's a competition -- maybe it's a man thing.

CROWLEY: Smith sees 687 as an overwritten first step by out of state liberals to take away his freedom and change Oklahoma culture.

There are fewer bucks on this side but enough to make the point.

COMMERCIAL ANNOUNCER: The long-term goal is to outlaw fishing, hunting, rodeos, all animal sports. They say these sports are cruel and inhumane. Sportsmen, it's time to wake up. These California radicals are here.

CROWLEY: There is no bridging this divide. No middle ground. Not even any commonality of facts.

This, say animal rights activists, is what a cockfight looks like. Cockfighters won't allow pictures of the real thing, but Smith says this is more typical.

SMITH: As you can see, neither rooster is injured at all.

CROWLEY: He describes a rural community of game foul and pump $100 million into the state economy. He said he uses tiny leather boxing gloves on his roosters. And that mostly, in Oklahoma, the roosters don't die.

HALLIBURTON: You've been lied to.

CROWLEY: She describes an Oklahoma embarrassment, an underworld of gambling and criminals, supported by a bloodsport.

She's been at this for years and now senses victory.

He's been fighting and raising game foul for 30 years and he senses momentum.

SMITH: The animal rights activists support is slipping away like a California mudslide, as I like to say.

CROWLEY: Candy Crowley, CNN, Oklahoma City.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That's all. We'll see you tomorrow. Good night.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Penalty; Bush Administration Urging Kremlin to Tell What Gas Was Used in Standoff>


Aired October 29, 2002 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: And good evening, again, everyone.
We admit to some confusion tonight, not for the first time. The governor of Maryland uncomfortable it seems with the way the death penalty is administered in his state, declared a moratorium so the state could look at some of the issues involved. And there are issues involved.

No matter where you stand in the death penalty, there have been enough cases where men had been wrongly convicted to give anyone pause, or at least so we hope. In any case, the governor declared this moratorium and Maryland stopped executing people while the study was being done. This was all in that period we can now refer to as BTS, before the sniper.

The other day, the governor said the moratorium wouldn't apply to the sniper case. He said it only applies to old cases. Call me cynical, but I have a feeling there's a bit of politics at play here. Either there are institutional problems with the death penalty in Maryland or there aren't.

Could it be just the possibility that the governor, faced with a certain outcry from people who want the death penalty here, caved in to a political reality? Now to us it looks a bit silly. And what is really strange is that he didn't have to do it at all. Even in the climate of this moment there was not going to be a trial, a verdict, a sentence and a set of appeals in the sniper case by April, when the moratorium was set to expire.

There is no moratorium on capital cases, just on executions. So if the flip flop wasn't political, what else could it have been?

On to The Whip and the day's news. The federal government weighs in on the sniper case. Kelli Arena on that tonight. Kelli, a headline, please.

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, today the federal government entered a legal fray filing charges against John Allen Muhammad. Charges that could lead to the death penalty.

BROWN: Kelli, thank you.

On to Moscow and the hostage crisis and the actions of the Russian government. John King tonight on how the White House has responded to it all. John, a headline from you.

JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, privately the administration is urging the Kremlin to be more forthcoming to tell it what kind of gas was used to end the deadly standoff. The administration is worried if Russian troops have it, perhaps the Russian mob and terrorists could get it. But publicly, the president is telling top aides no criticism of President Putin, a man he views as a key ally in the war on terrorism.

BROWN: John, thank you.

Out in the Midwest tonight, a memorial service for Minnesota Senator Paul Wellstone and the others killed in the plane crash last Friday. Jonathan Karl is following the political twists and turns that no one could have expected in this race. Jon, a headline from you tonight.

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the Wellstone memorial, which is still going on, looks more like a political rally than a funeral, as Wellstone's friends and his former staffers come together with the rallying cry of winning next week's election in Paul Wellstone's name.

BROWN: Jon, thank you.

And on to Florida now to end The Whip, and the Haitians who swam to shore today by the hundreds. Mark Potter covered that all afternoon. He's with us tonight. Mark, a headline from you.

MARK POTTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, more than 200 Haitians on a grossly overloaded freighter came ashore near Miami and are now in detention awaiting hearings on whether they can stay in the United States. Their chances may not be very good -- Aaron.

BROWN: Mark, thank you. Back with all of your shortly.

Also coming up on the program tonight, the Lieutenant Governor of Maryland, Democrat Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, she is in a very tight race for governor there. We will talk to her about guns, the death penalty and the sniper case.

Jeff Greenfield tonight on a political story that has been marked by tragedy. Not Minnesota, this time. This time, Missouri. Jeanne Carnahan trying to keep her Senate seat two years after taking her husband's spot after he died in a plane crash. This is a very tight race.

And a bitterly divisive issue on the ballot in Oklahoma. Something turning brother against brother, chicken against chicken. Whether to ban cock fighting.

And tonight, as well, free speech on a Wisconsin campus, where the issues are race and murder and young killers. Did the rules change?

All that and more in the hour ahead. We begin with the case against John Muhammad.

He appeared in federal court today and heard the charges, 20 counts, with one clear aim, according to the attorney general, to make him pay the ultimate price the government can demand. And with jurisdictions from Washington state to Maryland fighting over Muhammad and his young friend, today the federal government staked a powerful claim.

We begin tonight with CNN's Kelli Arena.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARENA (voice-over): At least one of the federal charges against John Allen Muhammad carries a death penalty sentence. And according to Attorney General John Ashcroft, ensuring that penalty is the overriding concern.

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: There are already people who are saying that they don't think the ultimate penalties ought to be available, whether they're editorialist or others who don't believe in the death penalty. I believe that the ultimate sanction ought to be available here.

ARENA: Charges in the federal complaints include the use of a firearm during a crime of violence, conspiracy to commit offenses against the United States, conspiracy to affect interstate commerce by extortion, and discharging a firearm into a school zone. :

ASHCROFT: It alleges the most severe and atrocious of crimes. It provides a basis for additional investigation.

ARENA: Muhammad was read the charges against him in court and said he understood them.

JIM WYDA, MUHAMMAD'S ATTORNEY: At this point we still have not heard any evidence in a court of law against Mr. Muhammad. We know a few things at this point. Mr. Muhammad is a 41-year-old father. He was an American who served in the Persian Gulf. He was honorably discharged from the United States military. He has never been convicted of another crime at any time, anywhere.

ARENA: The government's complaint does not name the younger suspect, 17-year-old John Malvo, because he is a juvenile. But it is expected that he too will be charged with federal capital offenses though he cannot federally face the death penalty. The federal complaint follows the filing of charges by four counties in Maryland and Virginia. Justice Department sources say a county in Virginia will probably get the chance to go to court first.

PAUL BUTLER, FMR. FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Virginia jurors are much more likely to sentence someone to death than Maryland. And executions are much more likely to be carried out in Virginia, including executions of minors.

(END VIDEOTAPE) ARENA: The government affidavit alleges that Muhammad referred to Malvo as sniper, at least according to one acquaintance. That seems to support allegations by some investigators that the juvenile was the shooter in at least one of the attacks -- Aaron.

BROWN: Kelli, just if you can, who will make this decision on who prosecutes first? Is it the federal government's call or some sort of negotiation that has to go on?

ARENA: Well, it is ultimately the Justice Department's call. These two individuals are in federal custody, although there are lots of discussions going on among the involved prosecutors and justice officials. But at the end of the day, Aaron, it is the attorney general who gets to make the call.

BROWN: Because the federal government would then deliver the alleged snipers to the jurisdictions...

ARENA: That's right. Transfer from federal custody to whichever jurisdiction's custody.

BROWN: Kelli, thank you. Kelli Arena tonight.

A quick update now from Moscow. The Russian government still isn't saying what kind of gas was used in that hostage rescue, though doctors now have a pretty good idea. If they're right, many of the 115 people who died from the gas could have been saved. They believe, and United States officials agree with this, the gas has properties similar to a morphine-based drug that is used in hospital anesthetics. They figured it out after trying a number of different treatments. And the one for morphine is the one that worked.

Experts say if victims had gotten it quickly on the scene, many would have survived. But there was no medical attention on the scene.

One other note, officials now confirm an American is among the dead. Sandy Booker (ph) was an electrician for General Motors in Oklahoma. He had come to Moscow to bring his Russian fiance back to the United States.

The reaction now at the White House and the balancing act for the president. In private there is concern about the loss of life and especially all the secrecy surrounding the gas of the Russians, says one reporter the Russians used. As one reporter put it, the Russians are acting awfully Soviet these days. But if the administration has private concerns, it also has very public objectives on terrorism, on Iraq, and it needs Russia's help to achieve them both.

Again, our Senior White House Correspondent, John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): The President set the tone with a call to President Putin early in the hostage standoff and has told top aides repeatedly in recent days to be nothing but supportive. ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The President makes no mistake about who is to blame for this. The people who put people in harm's way are the terrorists who took the lives.

KING: The solidarity with the man Mr. Bush calls "friend" comes despite Russia's refusal to tell the United States what kind of gas it used to retake a Moscow theater from Chechen rebels. 115 hostages were killed by the gas. And U.S. Ambassador, Alexander Virshbau (ph), was quoted Tuesday as saying, "It is clear that with perhaps a little more information, at least a few more of the hostages may have survived."

Administration sources tell CNN the State Department quickly told the ambassador there should be no public criticism of the Russian government. Mr. Bush is known for his loyalty, and President Putin has been a steadfast ally on the war on terrorism. Mr. Putin did not object, for example, when the Pentagon moved forces into the former Soviet republic of (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Tajikistan and Uzbekistan to help with the war in Afghanistan. Or when the United States sent military personnel to train special forces in Georgia, which has tense relations with Moscow.

And Mr. Bush wants Russia's support now in confronting Iraq and in isolating North Korea because of its nuclear weapons program.

JIM STEINBERG, FMR. DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: I think we're in a posture where we're not likely to be asking too many questions. But I think it is not in our long-term interest to ignore the problems here.

KING: U.S. officials believe the gas was fentanyl, a fast-acting opiate. And one worry is that if Russian special forces have the drug in gas form, that the Russian mob or terrorist might be able to get their hands on it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Senior officials say the administration is making it quite clear to President Putin that it believes it is urgent that he be more forthcoming. But in private, top aides say here a President, who himself has taken some controversial steps to fight the war on terrorism is not about to openly criticize a leader he considers not only an ally, but a friend -- Aaron.

BROWN: Does anybody at the White House know or believe they know why the Russians have not said what the gas is?

KING: President Putin is a former KGB chief. He is a man prone to secrecy. They believe that he will react to public pressure in Russia, let alone this international pressure, and come clean more. What the White House argument, Aaron, is that Mr. Putin, you would quiet the criticism if you explain the tough choice you faced. No one here questioning that the Russians had to react to the hostage crisis. They say President Putin should be more open about his choices, but they also say this is a cultural question. The Soviet Union is now Russia, it has been a democracy for some time. But it does not have open press, it does not have open government. The transparency that we're used to in the United States is still very much a work in progress in Moscow.

BROWN: And prior to September 11 a year ago, what did the United States -- how did the United States government refer to the Chechen separatists? Were they called terrorists then, or is that a word that came into play post 9/11?

KING: That is the key point. Everyone in this administration acknowledges September 11 changed everything. Prior to September 11, the Clinton administration and the Bush administration more publicly critical of the Russian government, saying, yes, there are some terrorist organizations in Chechnya, but overall it is a political issue, a civil civilian strife issue and that it should be settled politically.

That is still the administration's position, that it should be settled politically. But after September 11, the rules changed. This government still has people held in Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere who have not been charged for more than a year. The changes the president has implemented in how he defines terrorism here at home have broad international ramifications, and we're looking at one of them right now.

BROWN: John, thank you very much. Our Senior White House Correspondent, John King, with us tonight.

More now on the U.S. effort at the U.N. Security Council. The Russians and the French still publicly opposing a tough American resolution on Iraq. But today the administration appeared to back away from forcing an early vote on the measure. Instead, the order of the day and perhaps the rest of the week seems to be more arm twisting, more wordsmithing and a lot of back and forth in French.

For the latest on the situation at the Security Council, we turn to CNN's Richard Roth at the U.N. Richard, good evening.

RICHARD ROTH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening. Bon soir, Aaron.

The urgency not seen here tonight at the U.N. Security Council. The planned meeting to go over the resolution again put off until tomorrow morning. Perhaps the most significant development will be in Washington tomorrow. Hans Blix, the chief U.N. weapons inspector in Iraq, and Mohammed al Barade (ph), the executive director of the International Atomic Energy Agency, will be at the White House for talks with Vice President Cheney, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, and likely President Bush.

Mr. Blix was just in Moscow making the rounds with key permanent members of the Security Council. In the past, U.S. officials have been critical of Mr. Blix, perhaps questioning his aggressiveness. Now it seems like if inspectors are indeed going to go into Iraq, they might as well make the inspection mandate as tough as possible. Here in New York, the major difference business between the U.S. and France, and it's over language, tricky words like material breach, serious consequence. It may seem like word games to other people, but this is international law and years from now, no matter what happens, in Iraq, diplomats, the world will look back on these resolutions and follow the words indeed say on the paper.

U.N. Secretary General Annan talked with me about President Bush's criticisms that the U.N. is taking too long, comparing it to the League of Nations. Mr. Annan said these deliberations take time. Secretary of State Powell said they're still hoping to find the bridging language with France, but he raised the strong possibility that a vote won't happen until next week -- Aaron.

BROWN: Richard, au revoir. Richard Roth at the U.N. tonight -- thank you.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT: cockfighting. Inside the fighting ring and the debate that's going on in Oklahoma. It's a ballot initiative there.

Also ahead, the D.C.-area sniper shootings and the effect on politics. We'll talk with the lieutenant governor of the state of Maryland, a candidate for governor, Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: If you're looking to see the impact that the sniper story had on Maryland politics, the sniper tragedy, you can find plenty of evidence of it on the airwaves in campaign ads in a very tight race for governor. The Democratic candidate, Lieutenant Governor Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, put out ads late last week, describing her Republican opponent as, "the NRA candidate for governor." Soon after, Republican Congressman Robert Ehrlich criticized Ms. Kennedy's record -- Ms. Townsend's record on crime in his own attack ad.

We want to talk about politics, guns, the death penalty, where the sniper suspect should be tried, with Kathleen Kennedy Townsend. We of course also extend an invitation to Congressman Ehrlich, and we hope and expect that he'll come talk to us before this week is out.

The lieutenant governor joins us from Washington tonight. Nice to see you. I apologize for messing up the introduction. Let's talk about...

KATHLEEN KENNEDY TOWNSEND (D), LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, MARYLAND: You know what, a lot of people get it mixed up. You're not alone.

BROWN: That I'm sure of.

KENNEDY TOWNSEND: It doesn't matter at all.

BROWN: Serious business here. You supported the moratorium on executions in your state. Clearly that means that you had some concerns there might be institutional problems, but you said in this case it is appropriate. How do you square these two positions?

KENNEDY TOWNSEND: Very easily. I have always said and I have always been for the death penalty. But I think there needs to be a moratorium, when there is a study taking place as to whether the death penalty is applied in a fair and just manner. There is no question that in this case that this is a death penalty case and should be applied here.

BROWN: So the question has to do with whether these other cases were appropriate death penalty cases or whether the trials themselves were fair?

KENNEDY TOWNSEND: This is all -- this is what the study is looking into. Just so you understand what is going on in Maryland, there's a study that is taking place to see how the death penalty has been applied in Maryland. During that time, I thought it made sense to have a moratorium, because you would hate to have someone executed and then the study determined that the death penalty wasn't applied in a fair and just manner. That's a very, very serious consequence, and you don't want to second-guess yourself, especially if the study comes out and says that it wasn't very fairly applied.

So I believe that the study, which is supposed to come in with its findings in December, the legislature will then have the opportunity over the next legislative session to work with the next governor to figure out is the death penalty applied? How should it be applied more fairly and justly? If it has to be. You know we don't even know the results of the study.

And the moratorium, I had always said, would be lifted by the end of next April. It does not apply to these cases that are going forward, it really only applies to waiting, to waiting to execute people while they're on death row while the study is taking place.

BROWN: And just one more quick one on the death penalty and we'll move on.

KENNEDY TOWNSEND: Sure.

BROWN: Can you tell me -- Maryland law has, I think, ten circumstances in capital cases where the death penalty is considered a factor. Which one of those ten or which ones of those ten applies to the sniper case?

KENNEDY TOWNSEND: Well, we would have to look at them. But my belief is that it's clearly -- this is one of the most heinous crimes in American history, and Maryland law would definitely elect, be applied in this case.

BROWN: OK. Just a kind of overview here. Has this horrible tragedy that took place in Maryland and in Virginia, has it become the overriding issue in the campaign?

KENNEDY TOWNSEND: It is an important issue, but there are a number of other important issues. People want to know what we're going to do on education. And I have a plan to reduce class size and have early childhood education. People want to know about prescription drugs wherever I go across the state of Maryland. And I have a plan to reduce the cost of prescription drugs from 28 to 55 percent for 200,000 seniors that don't have prescription drugs.

People across our state care very much about the Chesapeake Bay and our beautiful environment and, again, I'm the candidate who wants to protect our bay. This is, of course, an important question, which is how are we going to have common sense gun laws in the state of Maryland and how are we going to make sure they're enforced? And, again, there is a big difference, as you know, between my record and my plans and my opponent's.

I have fought very hard to have common sense gun laws for a long period of time. And today I announced a proposal to make sure that we could have ballistic fingerprinting for assault weapons. We are already one of two states in the country that have it for handguns, but I think it makes sense to have it for assault weapons as well.

I also propose that assault weapons be regulated by a gun roster board so that we have experts deciding whether a gun meets the definition of an assault weapon. Right now, we have a federal law, but, as we saw in this case, it is easy to get around that federal law by making adjustments in the shape of the gun and it gets around the intent of the law, and I don't think that's is the right thing to do.

BROWN: Ms. Townsend, just briefly as you can, because we're really tight tonight, would these have been issues? Would you have raised them? Would the ads have run? Would they have been issues if the sniper tragedy had not happened?

KENNEDY TOWNSEND: Well, we've always had -- certainly were having the questions on both of these, whether we should have ballistic fingerprinting was raised earlier this summer, because when -- and the gun roster board, because both of these issues had been raised by my opponent when he was asked which laws should be looked at and maybe even changed or repealed. He pointed to these two laws.

So, obviously, interestingly enough, these are the two laws that he had raised earlier this summer as objects for repeal. And I'm saying, no, not only shouldn't it be repealed, they should be expanded.

BROWN: Ms. Townsend, thank you for joining us.

Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, the democratic candidate for the governor in Maryland. And, again, we hope the Republican will join us before the week is out. The invitation is out there and we assume it will be accepted.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, crying foul over cockfighting. The issue hits the ballot in Oklahoma.

And straight ahead, hundreds of asylum seekers along Florida's coast. Certainly the most dramatic pictures of the day. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We were, like many of you, we suspect, watching the pictures come in from south Florida this afternoon, as hundreds of Haitians poured over the side of a boat into the bay and tried to swim to shore. One shot in particular tore our heart out. A little girl was being lowered into the water and she had on this beautiful white dress as if she was going to church. As if her parents really understood the wonder of this place, the United States.

(UNINTELLIGIBLE), it seemed to us. And through this little girl they were paying their respects. Did they know, we wonder, that barring a miracle, they and their little child would not be allowed to stay? Here's CNN's Mark Potter.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

POTTER (voice-over): The 50-foot wooden coastal freighter, grossly overloaded with more than 200 Haitian migrants, ran around within sight of the downtown skyline, about 20 yards south of the bridge between Miami and Key Biscayne.

As the boat reached shallow water, the Haitians began jumping overboard. Men, women and children desperate to reach dry land. Some of them took off their shoes, threw them as far as they could and then retrieved them on shore. Some hit deeper water, couldn't swim and had to be rescued by the U.S. Coast Guard. Most, however, made it easily to shore and began running through traffic on the bridge. Some approaching motorists apparently seeking rides to leave the area.

JOE CETESTIN, NORTH MIAMI MAYOR: They were really desperate, it shows clearly in their faces. And it was very unhuman the way they were flying off the ship and I hope the United States would give them the proper care and understand these people are looking and seeking for a better life.

POTTER: Local and federal authorities quickly converged, sealed off the roadway and began to round up the Haitians. They were taken into custody and are being held in an immigration detention facility where INS officials say they will be given food, water and clothing before they are questioned about whether they have a credible fear of persecution in Haiti and the right to political asylum in the U.S.

Legal and political activist are urging fair treatment.

LIDA RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF, PRESIDENT ACLU GREATER MIAMI: If they do demonstrate that political fear, what should be happening is that they should be released to relatives or friends in the community.

POTTER: As police rounded up the migrants, a handful of Haitian- Americans protested U.S. immigration policy which gives special privileges to Cuban immigrants. Haitians are often seen as economic migrants and are frequently sent back to Haiti.

CHERYL LITTLE, FLORIDA MIGRANT ADVOCACY CENTER: They're not from a communist country and so folks tend to assume that they're simply economic refugees. They don't have the kind of political clout that a lot of other groups have. And frankly, I think the color of their skin has something to do with it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

POTTER: Immigration advocates say that they will ask INS officials to release most of those Haitians shortly so that they can get lawyers and more effectively argue their asylum claims.

But they also concede that even if that does happen, it is highly likely that most of the Haitians will be sent back to their home country -- Aaron?

BROWN: Mark, thank you. Mark Potter in Miami tonight.

An update quickly on the investigation into American Airlines Flight 587, the crash last year in Queens, New York, happened just months after September 11. A transcript of the cockpit recording was released today. It started the hearings in Washington. It showed that the crew seemed unaware that the tailfin of the jet had fallen off as they tried to control the plan.

Investigators believe the swings and the rudder whipped the tail so severely the tail broke off. The entire flight of 587 lasted 103 seconds.

Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, Missouri's Senate race and why it's under the very watchful eye of one very divided Congress.

Also, a big name Republican is asked not to attend Paul Wellstone's memorial service in Minneapolis tonight. That story as NEWSNIGHT continues from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Strange mix today in Minnesota -- strange but as it turns out, not all that rare. Personal and public tragedy playing out against a political backdrop.

With just a week to go before one of the tightest elections in memory, sources tell us former Vice President and former Senator Walter Mondale has agreed to take the late Senator Paul Wellstone's place on the ballot. He'll make a formal statement tomorrow.

Tonight though, he went to the memorial service along with fellow Democrats and Republicans and all the people going who will be going at it hammer and nail to Election Day.

As we said, strange mix. Here's CNN's Jonathan Karl.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KARL (voice-over): The overflow crowd came as much to celebrate Paul Wellstone's life as to mourn his death.

In attendance, a political who's who, including Bill and Hillary Clinton, Al Gore and more than half the United States Senate, including Republican leader Trent Lott. Noticeably absent was Vice President Cheney. The Wellstone family declined his offer to attend.

A campaign-style video made for the service closed with a reminder that Wellstone's death came in the midst of a hard fought Senate campaign, a campaign that is about to begin again.

NORM COLEMAN (R-MN), SENATE CANDIDATE: We will lead the way. This is the state I love. This is the state I represent and I intend to win this Senate race.

KARL: Democrats believe former Vice President Walter Mondale is the person to pick up where Wellstone left off. Mondale is expected to be tapped to replace Wellstone as the Democratic nominee at a hastily planned convention Wednesday night.

Former Senator Frank Lautenberg says he understands why the former vice president would like to go back to the Senate.

FRANK LAUTENBERG, FORMER SENATOR: Walter Mondale once said something to me, after he served as vice president and I asked him if that was the best job he ever had. He said, No, no. He said, the best job one can have in government is in the United States Senate.

KARL: Democrats say the old green bus Wellstone used as a campaign trademark will be put back to work for their new candidate in a race they say will be about Wellstone and his legacy than about the person running to replace him. The beat up old bus was on display outside the arena where the overflow crowd remembered Wellstone, fully aware there isn't much time to mourn with an election just a week away.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: As for the Republicans, their candidate Norm Coleman suspended all campaign activity on Friday after news of Wellstone's death. But he his the ground running tomorrow morning, 6:15 wheels up, he goes around the state continuing that Republican campaign. There's only six days of campaigning left and they'll be using every minute of it here in Minnesota, Aaron.

BROWN: Jon, thank you. Jonathan Karl in Minneapolis tonight.

President Bush will be in Minnesota campaigning for Mr. Coleman on Sunday.

In many ways, the vote this year in Minnesota echoes the one two years ago in Missouri.

There a popular politician died three weeks before the election but his name stayed on the ballot and a deal was made so that if he won, beating the now Attorney General John Ashcroft, his wife would take the seat. He did, she did and now Jean Carnahan is trying to hang on to that seat as if control of the Senate hangs in the balance, which it may.

Here's CNN's Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It mirrors America more than any other state.

Its six million people crowd into big cities and spread out over farms and small towns.

It lays claim to birthing the blues. While the town of Branson draws millions to the mecca of country music.

And if you want to know where America is politically, you come to Missouri, the state that would with one small exception, voted for the winner of every presidential contest of the 20th Century.

And this year, once again, Missouri is an American microcosm producing one of the closest, most hotly contested Senate races anywhere.

The incumbent, 68-year-old Jean Carnahan, who was named to fill the Senate seat won by her late husband, Governor Mel Carnahan. He died in a plane crash three weeks before the 2000 election and he wound up with more votes than Senator John Ashcroft did.

That inexperience, says St. Louis Post-Dispatch reporter Deidre Sheshgreen is a target for Republicans.

DEIDRE SHESHGREEN, "ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH" REPORTER: The Republicans have tried to raise questions about her competence during her two years in the Senate, suggesting that she was essentially lost in the Senate.

GREENFIELD: While her campaign is working feverishly to get out the Democratic base vote, minorities and labor, Carnahan stresses a more centrist message.

SEN. JEAN CARNAHAN (D), MISSOURI: I have worked with the president. In fact, I voted for the tax cut. I voted with him on the education "Leave No Child Behind" program and I have brought -- worked with him and voted with him on the defense issues.

GREENFIELD: Her opponent: 46-year-old Jim Talent, here at a Republican fund raiser with the First Lady.

With eight years in the state legislature, eight more in Congress and a photo finish loss for governor two years ago, he is a rare challenger with more experience than the incumbent.

REP. JIM TALENT (R), MISSOURI: I think my record is what I have been emphasizing the most. I have a strong record of performance in the House. I chaired the small business committee.

GREENFIELD: The commercials, unsurprisingly, stress somewhat harsher themes.

Carnahan is anti-Missouri.

COMMERCIAL ANNOUNCER: She admits the Bush energy plans would create Missouri jobs, but then votes against him.

GREENFIELD: Talent's endangering the elderly.

COMMERCIAL ANNOUNCER: Jim Talent co-sponsored legislation that takes $3 trillion from the Social Security trust fund and gives it to Wall Street to invest instead.

GREENFIELD: In their debate last week, Carnahan challenged Talent's criticisms of her votes on defense and national security.

CARNAHAN: I would not doubt your patriotism nor would I doubt the patriotism of any member of the United States State Senate, Republican or Democrat, and I don't want you to doubt mine again.

TALENT: You don't question anybody's motives much less their patriotism when you talk about votes.

GREENFIELD (on camera): As if the Senate race isn't close enough, tens of thousands of provisional ballots may be cast on election day. That could mean it will take days, maybe even a couple of weeks before Missouri knows who its senator is, and before America knows which party controls the U.S. Senate.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, St. Louis.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, holding welfare responsible for children gone bad, very bad. The issue, the controversy, and the university student who started it all, when NEWSNIGHT continues from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Busy morning ahead on "AMERICAN MORNING." Here with an example is Paula Zahn.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR (on camera): Thanks, Aaron. Tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," we are going to have all the latest developments in the sniper investigation, and we're going to take a look at an intriguing announcement that scientists have actually found a gene that causes obesity. If that's the case, a pill to fight fat may not be far behind.

We are all for that, and we are going to cover this from a bunch of different angles tomorrow, starting at 7:00 Eastern time. Hope you join then -- Aaron.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Paula, thank you. And ahead on NEWSNIGHT, a battle over free speech. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We want to revisit a story that shocked all of us last month, the man in the inner city of Milwaukee savagely beaten to death, allegedly by a mob of teenagers, some younger than that, kids using shovels and pipes and baseball bats and boards. It was one of those stories that screams the question, Why? Why did these kids do it? It's something editorial writers have been trying to answer, including one student at the University of Wisconsin at Waukesha, except the answer he has given, and especially the way he has given it has created an enormous controversy on campus.

Dan Hubert believes it is welfare that has destroyed responsible families and parents. African-American leaders have not done enough to promote a sense of right and wrong. Dan joins us from Milwaukee tonight, along with Natalie Vance of the African-American Union, a student group on the campus -- welcome to both of you.

Dan, let's start with you. You wrote, "Stop the welfare payments and you'll stop the madness." The madness you refer to is the killing, but more than that. Is that literally what you meant?

That is a bad start. Dan, can you hear me? Can you hear?

DAN HUBERT, ASSISTANT EDITOR, "OBSERVER": There is nothing.

BROWN: Apparently not. OK.

I'll tell you what. Let's try and fix and that, we'll go on to something else, and we'll come back to that without the big windup.

Quickly, a couple of stories from around the world tonight.

Terrible fire in Vietnam, at least 54 people were killed in Ho Chi Minh City. More than 120 injured in a fire that began in a disco. The death toll expected to rise, no word yet on what caused the fire, but several big fires in recent years in the city have been blamed on electrical problems.

More trouble in Italy tonight at Mt. Etna, Europe's most active volcano. If it wasn't dangerous, it would beautiful, isn't it? The volcano has been spouting enormous amounts of lava and ash. Today a violent earthquake hit the area. More and 1,000 people have fled their homes. The Italian government has issued a state of emergency, but at this point, there is no word on any serious injuries.

Having done that, let's go back to Milwaukee. I'm going to assume that everyone remembers what we're about to do, OK?

Dan, let's go back to you, Dan Hubert out there in Milwaukee. You wrote that if you stop -- I want to get the quote right -- "stop the welfare payments, you will stop the madness" -- the killing, the drug use, the rest -- is that literally what you meant?

HUBERT: I felt that my article reflected that ending the welfare would -- instead of driving a family apart, would bring it back together again. I feel that welfare payments in general really drive the family apart, and these kids didn't have parents who are around to give them the attention in the time that they needed. As far as -- that's my point.

BROWN: And what has happened since is that there's been a considerable backlash. You have been called racist, there are people who have called for your expulsion from the university, correct?

HUBERT: Yes, that is true. I feel very hurt by that, if there's one thing that you can't call me, it is a racist because I stood up -- in my article, I was standing up for Charlie Young Jr., who was beaten to death by a mob of monsters, and for a white man to defend a black man and then for me to be called a racist, you're going to have to change the word -- the definition of racism to make that fit for me.

BROWN: All right. Let me turn to Natalie for a second, and Dan, we'll come back to you in a moment.

Natalie, what trouble do you have with -- is it the theme of the article you have a problem with, or the way it was laid out?

NATALIE VANCE, AFRICAN-AMERICAN UNION: My problem with the article was mainly the generalizations and stereotypes that were in the article. To me, the article wasn't based on fact, it was just based on an incident that took place, and then I felt that Dan took that incident and went off on his own tangent about how he felt about African-Americans, and there's one thing to base an article or an editorial on fact, and then give an opinion, but to not establish an audience, to not give any facts, but to go off on how you felt about it, I just thought that that was wrong to not have it based on any fact at all.

BROWN: And do you think he should be expelled? Do you think the university should stop funding the newspaper? Do you think any of those punishments for this are appropriate?

VANCE: You know what -- no, I don't. Expelling Dan would not fix the problem. He had every right to say what he said in that article. I mean, I am a firm believer in the First Amendment right to freedom of speech, and I believe that he was speaking his mind. I believe that the way Dan chose to go about it, and the things that he said is punishment in itself. The things that he is going through now, after what he did, and having to deal with the anger of not only the African-American students, but the Caucasian students, the Hispanic students -- that is punishment enough, I believe.

BROWN: Dan, I read -- and you'll tell me if this is accurate -- that you had some concern that what you wrote might ultimately affect your desire, at some point in life, to run for public office, and you have -- apologized, I think, is a fair word, you have apologized for the way you said what you said, not necessarily the theme you were writing, but what you said. I am just wondering how sincere the apology is, given your concern about how it might affect the future.

HUBERT: I am sincerely sorry for the people who were offended at it. I don't think that I stereotyped or generalized anybody or anything. What I said was based on 2002 -- I'm sorry, 2000 Census Bureau data, it is based also on an article in the "Milwaukee Journal- Sentinel," and also some other non-profit organizations, their Web sites their information that was provided to me.

I am sorry that people are offended over this. I am not sorry for my defense for my defense of Charlie Young and I'm not sorry for standing up for what I believe in.

BROWN: Dan, Natalie, I thank you both. It's an interesting issue and I know the university's working hard to sort it all out. Thank you both for your time tonight. Thank you.

Still ahead on the program, cockfighting, is it animal cruelty or just plain fun? Voters in Oklahoma will get to decide that, we'll show you the debate when we wrap it up on NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Finally from us tonight, one more political story, lots of interesting initiatives on the ballot on Tuesday including 687 in Oklahoma. Boy, it certainly has the ruffled feathers on the rooster lobby.

Here's CNN's Candy Crowley with an explanation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There are 202 statewide ballot measures this election season.

In Oklahoma, State Question 687 is for the birds.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The issue is human cruelty. The purpose in slashing these birds to death in front of these crowds is for gambling and for the entertainment of people.

CROWLEY: Yes, cockfighting is legal in Oklahoma. Has been since the 60's, when a court ruled that animal cruelty laws do not apply to chickens because chickens are not animals.

Animal rights activists have been crying foul ever since.

Enough with the puns. This is serious stuff to Janet Halliburton, animal rights' activists, lawyer.

JANET HALLIBURTON, ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: These cockfighters involve their children in the cockfights. And so the children see these animals being slashed to death for gambling purposes. And this desensitization makes it more likely that there's going to be human violence involved at some other stage..

CROWLEY: Six eighty-seven would make cockfighting and raising cockfighters illegal. It is a big bucks battle.

COMMERCIAL ANNOUNCER: Knives strapped to bird's legs. Placed in a pit to fight to the death. They call this sport?

CROWLEY: Oklahoma City, with its faux river walk, trendy restaurants and yes, coffee shops, may seem an unlikely spot for a devise debate over cockfighting. But the truth is you don't have to leave city limits to find a view and views that are very different.

Devin Smith, husband, father, radio ad salesman, game foul breeder, cockfighter.

DEVIN SMITH, FREEDOM OF CHOICE ADVOCATE: Well, I enjoy the competition of it, just to be honest with you. There's a competition -- maybe it's a man thing.

CROWLEY: Smith sees 687 as an overwritten first step by out of state liberals to take away his freedom and change Oklahoma culture.

There are fewer bucks on this side but enough to make the point.

COMMERCIAL ANNOUNCER: The long-term goal is to outlaw fishing, hunting, rodeos, all animal sports. They say these sports are cruel and inhumane. Sportsmen, it's time to wake up. These California radicals are here.

CROWLEY: There is no bridging this divide. No middle ground. Not even any commonality of facts.

This, say animal rights activists, is what a cockfight looks like. Cockfighters won't allow pictures of the real thing, but Smith says this is more typical.

SMITH: As you can see, neither rooster is injured at all.

CROWLEY: He describes a rural community of game foul and pump $100 million into the state economy. He said he uses tiny leather boxing gloves on his roosters. And that mostly, in Oklahoma, the roosters don't die.

HALLIBURTON: You've been lied to.

CROWLEY: She describes an Oklahoma embarrassment, an underworld of gambling and criminals, supported by a bloodsport.

She's been at this for years and now senses victory.

He's been fighting and raising game foul for 30 years and he senses momentum.

SMITH: The animal rights activists support is slipping away like a California mudslide, as I like to say.

CROWLEY: Candy Crowley, CNN, Oklahoma City.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That's all. We'll see you tomorrow. Good night.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Penalty; Bush Administration Urging Kremlin to Tell What Gas Was Used in Standoff>