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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Deadly Storms Kill At Least 35 in Midwest, East, South

Aired November 11, 2002 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, I'm Aaron Brown. Here's a depressing thought, I turned 54 over the weekend and that means I only matter for another 364 more days. That's right. On the day I turn 55, I am irrelevant, not completely irrelevant of course, some of you will still like me but to advertisers irrelevant.
Advertisers, or at least the people who advise them, figured out that when you reach the ripe old age of 55 you are no longer willing to change your mind so you don't matter. If at 54, you decided you preferred Heinz over Hunts, well that's the way it's going to stay. At 54, you're willing to try new and improved Dawn. At 55, you stick with Palmolive.

Fifty-four-year-olds, or better yet those even younger, can be persuaded to try almost anything. They'll give up their Wrigley's for Trident. They will just because the ad is really cool trade their Chevy in for a Ford or the other way around. But those 55-year-olds and above, why they just stick to what they're used to.

There is a lot of research on this I'm sure and I know this is true of my mother. I tried to get her to eat Risotto once, a really good one, but after tasting it she told me she preferred rice. But it is rice, I said mom. Well, you know, she responded regular rice, see proof.

Now, I'm sure that some of you who are 55 or older think this is bunk. You may even be able to come up with an example of where you've changed your mind. Maybe you used to use Crest and now you use Colgate, or you used to like Whoppers but you were seduced recently by a Value Meal at Wendy's. Maybe you used to really love Jane but now you love Barbara. Congratulations to you but that's not normal. Normal is being stuck in your ways.

So, I'm going to try everything this year, a new beer, a different car, dump my old insurance company, say goodbye to my barbecue sauce, my soap, all of it and live large while I can. I want to make the most of being relevant for as long as it lasts and the clock, sadly, is ticking.

On to the news of the day and it begins in Tennessee where we start the whip. A tornado, deadly tornadoes that hit over the weekend, Miles O'Brien starts us off, Miles, a headline from you please.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: An unusual time of year, some unusual places, a stunning toll in the wake of some killer storms. BROWN: Miles, thank you, back to you at the top tonight. On to Baghdad and some of the political theater going on responding to the U.N. resolution involving Iraq, Jane Arraf is there for us, Jane a headline from you tonight.

JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: An emergency session of Iraq's parliament is condemning that resolution and recommending that Iraq reject it but that might not be the final word.

BROWN: Jane, thank you, good to see you. And the first tonight in a series of reports on life in Saudi Arabia, the place that brought us 15 of the 19 hijackers, Christiane Amanpour has that, Christiane a headline from you.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, more than a year after September 11th, Saudi Arabia is still extremely defensive about the role those 15 played in those terrible attacks, still very bitter, perhaps as bitter as America itself. But, it is instituting very slowly, beginning to institute some fundamental changes.

BROWN: Christiane, thank you, back with you shortly, all of you in a moment. Also coming up on the program, always a really tough assignment interviewing the man, our talk with Ted Turner and his partner for the day Mohammad Yunus on the idea of giving small loans, quite small, to the poorest of the poor around the world and how it changes their lives. And, oh yes, we bring up the hot topic of the moment around our water coolers and in the media pages these days, the possibility of a merger between ABC News and CNN.

Also the fight over letting women become members at Augusta National Golf Club, there's not debate it seems in the mind of August Chairman Hootie Johnson. Mr. Johnson in interviews being published tomorrow is more defiant than ever. We'll talk with a woman who's trying to force a change, Martha Burk (ph) of the National Council of Women's Organizations and Steve Rushin (ph) one of the reporters to interview Mr. Johnson.

So, it's a full Monday night. We begin with the storms that laid waste to so much of the country. From Alabama to Ohio, the tornadoes came and people died. Homes were destroyed and businesses ruined. It was the worst devastation but, in all honesty, we have little in the way of words to describe it. The pictures say it all and our first look tonight comes from CNN's Miles O'Brien.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN (voice over): Two weeks before Thanksgiving is not the season for tornadoes but don't bother telling that to folks who live in Mossy Grove, Tennessee, or Walker County, Alabama, or Van Wert, Ohio. In those places, it is now the day after. The sun rose this morning on a season of sadness.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't know what to think when you see this. You think well it didn't happen to you but you pray for the people it did happen to.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have nothing. It's like you got to start your life all over again but we're alive. That's all that matters.

O'BRIEN: Thirty-six people are now confirmed dead, dozens injured, many others missing in the wake of the storm that swept from north to south across the eastern half of the country, spurning no less than 50 funnel clouds, some of the spinning at better than 200 miles an hour, flattening, uprooting, or snapping just about anything in their path.

DON SIEGELMAN, ALABAMA GOVERNOR: Outlying parts of the county, the houses are totally annihilated, devastated. I mean it's like somebody, you know, wrapped up sticks of dynamite and just blew these things, these homes into little tiny pieces.

O'BRIEN: As is always the case, the damage was capricious and the stories of survival seemingly miraculous. In Van Wert, Ohio, 60 movie watchers walked away unscathed because they were warned and got out of their seats before the theater became a drive-in. But in places where tornadoes are rare, there was less warning.

In Morgan County, Tennessee, where they have seen only three tornadoes in 53 years one of the worst sites of death and destruction, seven were killed in Mossy Grove alone, a community so small it does not appear on most maps. Now, it is struggling to rebuild.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everybody's hugging each other and just glad to see that everybody's all right, and everybody's checking on everybody.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN (on camera): And, while they're checking on everybody, the authorities in this area have cordoned off all the areas hard hit by the tornadoes. The concern here is with the power out, there might be looting, sort of the best and the worst comes out of people in the wake of such things -- Aaron.

BROWN: Is everyone now accounted for?

O'BRIEN: No, there's still 12 people missing in this part of the world, Aaron. I think that's missing with a lower case 'm.' It could be just people who have not touched base. Nevertheless, the search continues. Authorities are not trying to give us too much of an undertone to all that and the possibility of more fatalities. Nevertheless, 12 people still unaccounted for.

BROWN: Miles, thank you, Miles O'Brien. Tonight, all across the region, people who might have been killed survived the storm instead. Some got early warning, as Miles indicated. Some, only a few minutes of warning, even seconds before the tornadoes hit, but enough time to take cover. Others, of course, got no warning at all. Instead they got lucky. Here's CNN's Jeff Flock.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF FLOCK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): This is what it looked like heading for town. Over at the Van Wert Cinemas, they were watching "Santa Clause 2" when the emergency radio system started sending out warnings.

STEPHEN GHERES, MAYOR: One of them was directly to the theater here and the theater people did a wonderful job by acting on it.

FLOCK: About 60 people left in the theater raced to the bathrooms and hallways. Jessica Ross says everyone was running and crying.

JESSICA ROSS, SURVIVOR: And then we all ran into the bathroom and tried to get whatever we could get and cover ourselves and then we could feel it shaking.

FLOCK: You weren't upset though?

ROSS: No, I was just like, hold on, please be with me. I was just like praying the whole time, please don't let me die.

FLOCK: No one died. We met Jessica as she watched them drag out two cars that had blown into the middle of the seats where everyone had been sitting. Without the emergency warning, Mayor Stephen Gheres told us...

GHERES: I think all the kids would be dead now.

FLOCK (on camera): Instead, everyone who was here at the movies lived through an experience that sounds like it could have been out of a movie. I'm Jeff Flock CNN, in Van Wert, Ohio.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: In other news tonight, the sniper case got a little bit simpler but in some ways more complicated as well, simpler in that we know more about the crime. Young John Lee Malvo apparently talked at great length to authorities but it also got more complicated because of young Mr. Malvo's juvenile status. Will investigators be able to admit into court what they heard from him? Here's CNN's Patty Davis.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PATTY DAVIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): A senior source tells CNN 17-year-old John Lee Malvo has told investigators he pulled the trigger in some of the sniper shootings. That includes the murder of FBI Analyst Linda Franklin outside this Home Depot in Falls Church, Virginia October 14.

Those statements came during seven to eight hours of interrogation by authorities in Virginia without Malvo's lawyer present. Because of that, his court-appointed lawyer says he will move to suppress anything incriminating. Even though Malvo is a juvenile, legal experts say his statements will most likely be admissible in court.

PAUL KAMENAR, WASHINGTON LEGAL FDN: I think his statements will be admissible as long as the police did read him his rights and as long as Malvo knowingly and voluntarily waived those rights. DAVIS: Unlike previous interrogations, Malvo is said to have been very talkative. Among evidence investigators say they found in John Muhammad's blue Chevy Caprice, two-way radios. CNN's source says Malvo described the shootings as a military type operation and that he and his partner communicated with two-way radios.

Malvo is being tried as an adult. The 17-year-old's court- appointed guardian says he tried to intervene during the questioning but was escorted out of the building. Some say that could give the defense an opening.

JERALYN MERRITT, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: For the same reason that juveniles are considered not allowed to vote, not allowed to marry, not allowed to own property, they're considered not old enough to be interrogated in the absence of a parent or guardian.

DAVIS (on camera): Malvo's guardian says he hopes to track Malvo's mother down so she knows that her son could face the death penalty in Virginia if convicted of his alleged crimes. Patty Davis CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: President Bush marked Veterans Day with a country at war on a number of fronts and on the brink of war with Iraq. Iraq has until Friday to accept the terms of the U.N. Security Council resolution and let weapons inspectors back in. Today at Arlington National Cemetery, the president signaled again his impatience.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This great nation will not live at the mercy of any foreign plot or power. The dictator of Iraq will fully disarm or the United States will lead a coalition and disarm him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Iraqi lawmakers meantime spent the day attacking the Security Council resolution. They'll go back at it again tomorrow, but appearances aside, only one voice matters in Iraq and so far no one knows what Saddam Hussein will do. Smart money says he'll string things along a bit longer before giving in but whatever his decision, it's a pretty safe bet his parliament will agree. For the latest on the state of play, we go back to Baghdad and CNN's Jane Arraf -- Jane.

ARRAF: Hi, Aaron. Well, those lawmakers discussed late into the night the resolution and predictably they condemned it. They said it was unworkable, impossible to comply with, and basically a recipe for a U.S. attack. They also recommended, many of them, that Iraq reject it but that's not really the word that matters. They will send their recommendation to the body that does matter, the Revolution Command Council, chaired by the Iraqi president.

Now, this is a really interesting dilemma going on because Iraq is expected to accept this resolution, but to do that it basically has to reverse what it's been saying for years, months, and weeks, about having the weapons inspectors back and this resolution in general. Now, it's going to have to say that actually the weapons inspectors are welcome to return and it wants to give them unconditional access -- Aaron.

BROWN: In any way, how does this parallel how the Iraqi behaved before the first Gulf War?

ARRAF: In terms of the weapons inspections, this is such a different scenario I think that the feeling is that really it's a whole different ballgame because this really is a last chance. Before the first Gulf War, and after the Gulf War when the weapons inspectors came for the first time and stayed here for seven years, we have to remember, there really was a feeling that there was time to spare and that's probably why it took seven years when that disarmament process was intended to take six months after the Gulf War.

Now, there's a very strict deadline in this resolution to get things moving along and get things done and there's a real realization in the leadership here that it really doesn't have any more chances, that this may indeed be its very last chance to do this -- Aaron.

BROWN: And, on the street, is there a sense the clock is ticking?

ARRAF: There is. You know that clock ticking is heard very clearly here most of the time because it seems that Iraq has been under one sort of threat or another. Now, it's much louder these days with the deadline basically. We're racing towards that deadline for Iraq to accept the resolution and then several more deadlines that have to be met to avoid Iraq being in further material breach of the Gulf War and risk being attacked.

That includes complying with declarations for the weapons, having the inspectors come back, and having them go anywhere they want to in the country and unrestricted, unconditional access, which is a pretty tall order, so people here have a real apprehension about what could happen during the next coming weeks and the coming months -- Aaron.

BROWN: Jane, thank you, Jane Arraf in Baghdad tonight. We'll be seeing more of her in the weeks ahead no doubt. Later on NEWSNIGHT, we'll talk to CNN founder Ted Turner. Up next, Christiane Amanpour in a special look at a critical U.S. partner, Saudi Arabia. Tonight we take a look at what kids are learning in school there, that and more. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Tonight and for the rest of the week, we'll be looking at Saudi Arabia and how Saudis and Americans see one another. This is a relationship that got a whole lot more strained on the 11th of September a year ago, but has always been complicated and is getting more so each day. There is resentment, a resentment that comes from each country having what the other country can't easily live without, their oil, our military strength. There's a divide over United States support for Israel and Saudi reluctance to back the United States against Iraq. There's a growing suspicion that Saudi Arabia is preaching and teaching a brand of intolerance that breeds terrorism. The Saudis say things are changing. Take another look, they ask, and so we did. Here's CNN's Christiane Amanpour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR (voice over): At this weekly audience, known as the Majles (ph) Saudis meet, greet, and petition their country's de facto ruler Crown Prince Abdullah, and these days he's developed a message for them. In speeches, gatherings and in the press, he's telling them to stick to moderate Islam and shun provocative actions.

AMANPOUR (on camera): Ever since September 11th, the spotlight has been on Saudi Arabia's austere brand of Islam. Why did 15 young Saudis take part in those attacks? What's being preached in the mosques or taught in the schools that might encourage hatred or anti- Americanism?

AMANPOUR (voice over): Saudis heatedly deny their system graduates terrorists. At the same time, though, there is an unprecedented sensitivity to the need for new thinking.

PRINCE SULTAN BIN SALMAN, DIRECTOR, TOURISM COMMISSION: Of course there are certain aspects of education system (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that has to be examined and this self examination is going on and it's going on even faster now maybe after the focus of September 11th.

AMANPOUR: Five to ten percent of what's in Saudi textbooks was found to be objectionable. What Saudis call anti-Zionist material is now being removed and an urgent review of the national education system is calling for language, computer science, and technology, to be taught in English from grade school.

DUAA HAMDUDA (ph), DIETITIAN: I would like to be more creative and to be able to have critical thinking rather than the spoon-feeding education.

AMANPOUR: For the first time in Saudi Arabia, the public is demanding educational reforms to prepare students to integrate into the modern world and its job market.

DR. FAHAD ABDEL JABBER, DIRECTOR, KING ABDUL AZIZ MEDICAL CITY: I think the curriculum has to be changed. It has to be developed. It has to be contemporary, that curriculum. This is, I think, very important. They are actually getting more and more enlightened people that are having influence and they are overcoming the extremists.

AMANPOUR: Religious classes still form about a quarter of the curriculum and some people now admit that some of those do foster hatred of non-Muslims. But the head of Islamic studies at this school says that shouldn't happen.

TAHSIN ABDUL LATIF, KING FAISAL SCHOOL (through translator): Islam is not a religion that fosters (UNINTELLIGIBLE) or ignorance or hatred towards others. On the contrary, it's a religion that teaches students to like others and to think well about them.

AMANPOUR: Saudi Arabia has developed a shiny, modern infrastructure and modern message are beamed in via the Internet and satellite television. Now faced with a delicate balancing act, even Saudi rulers say they need to develop a more modern way of thinking to match.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR (on camera): The big focus has been on the money going from alleged charities or wealthy individuals to allegedly some of these terrorist groups. According to a top U.S. diplomat in Saudi Arabia, the Crown Prince has recently met with many of these charities and they've instituted, he says, some kind of transparency mechanism and made serious warnings to these charities not to misuse their funds and have instituted some kind of infrastructure to control better the funds that go to these charities -- Aaron.

BROWN: Let's try a couple things, Christiane. Number one, just how freely are you able to report out of Saudi Arabia? Are there minders with you all the time? Are you allowed to go where you want to go or is it difficult?

AMANPOUR: Well, I think the answer to those is yes. Basically it is difficult and yes we did have minders following us, but the minders were more, if you like, facilitators. There wasn't really a place that I asked to go that I was not allowed to go; however, it is difficult particularly with a camera. People are very reluctant, even women. You'll see some pieces that I've done, you know, coming this week.

It's very difficult to get women to agree to be interviewed on camera, and of course, it's very difficult to penetrate the netherworlds of whether it's financing or some of these Islamic classes. But what I found interesting was that for the first time there is a sense of introspection and just the fact that that is happening is, in itself, quite remarkable in Saudi Arabia, which has changed really in a glacial fashion.

BROWN: Christiane, thank you, a fascinating look. We look forward to the rest of the week. Christiane Amanpour who's made her way back to London and will join us this week all the way through.

On to other matters, there are lies that will not die, no matter how many stakes you drive through their hearts. Take the book called "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion," long exposed as a forgery that was cooked up by the secret police in the days of the Czar in Russia.

The protocols purport to be the minutes of a meeting of a cabal of Jews boasting of their invincibility, plotting to establish sovereignty over all of the world, to form a super government administration that will subdue all nations. There are also tidbits about the sacramental use of blood of Christian infants. Sounds like bang up entertainment, wouldn't you say? That's what an Egyptian TV company thought as well.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice over): It's called "Horseman Without a Horse," a month-long miniseries independently produced in Egypt but beamed by satellite to much of the Arab world. And this is Ramadan, a time of the year for blockbusters equivalent to sweep season in this country.

Many Muslims go home to break their daytime fast and watch TV, and what they are watching night after night, all month long, is a melodrama based in large part on the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion," a volume Adolf Hitler was quite keen on. In other parts of the world, there is consternation and sadness and anger over this, but Egyptians, a government spokesman among them, sees it another way.

MOHAMMAD SOBHI, WRITER AND ACTOR "HORSEMAN WITHOUT A HORSE": Here we are dealing with a work of art and we should deal with the work of art on its merits and demerits. But, any political blackmail from any quarter will not be accepted.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): One minute of news seen by the kids in the Arab world is much worse than when it is mentioned in the "Protocols of Zion."

BROWN: Maybe we oughtn't get on our high horse too much about "Horseman Without a Horse." The protocols have been passed from hand- to-hand in this country too. Henry Ford published them in a newspaper he owned in Michigan back in the 1920s. And today do an Internet search, you'll find dozens of Web sites breathlessly passing on the secrets revealed in an old pamphlet full of even older lies.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): This is not anti- Semitic. It is only showing the facts.

BROWN: It's not about gullibility, really. It's about wanting to believe and there is a different, a big one.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (on camera): Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, we'll talk micro- credit and other things with Ted Turner. Up next, the uproar over whether Augusta National should admit women, a new chapter written tonight. We're right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A few stories from around the world making news tonight, beginning with violence in the Middle East. Reuters is reporting that an Israeli army is moving into the West Bank camp of Poharm (ph). The move came after a Palestinian attack on a Kibbutz today, rather yesterday. The attack left five people dead, a mother and her two children among them.

Violence in Gaza as well, two Israeli Apache helicopters fired on a target in central Gaza City early today. At least four missiles fired. They appeared to be targeting a workshop. Also in Gaza, Palestinian hospital sources say a two-year-old died after being hit by gunfire, three other children hurt at a place where there's often been shooting between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

On to what seems to be a defection from Cuba, a Cuban plane, eight people aboard, landed in Key West, Florida today. The people onboard will be placed in the custody of the Immigration and Naturalization Service after they are questioned by the FBI. Cubans who reach U.S. soil are typically released and get permanent residency after one year.

And, just when you think it can not get much more sordid, it does. Diana's butler, Paul Burrell, was in New York today but then considering the latest uproar going on in Britain, allegations that an aide to Prince Charles once raped a male servant. There's speculation that Burrell had a taped recollection by the servant that Princess Diana had been keeping. Burrell denies this. This is a huge story in London.

Later on NEWSNIGHT we'll talk with Ted Turner. Up next, we'll take a look at the latest chapter in the flap over Augusta. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The battle over Augusta National after a short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: For months now the controversy has been swirling around Augusta National Golf Club, the host of the Masters, one of golf's premiere events, and it's refusal to admit a woman for membership. The chairman of the club issued a long and angry letter a few months back saying the club was being threatened by a woman's group. He later said the tournament would go on without commercials so that it's three sponsors would not be harmed. And then Hootie Johnson went silent and the controversy swirled.

Some club members, some who are big names in business world, said they would work quietly to change the club's policies. Most of 300 members stayed silent. Mr. Johnson is now smoking again in a series of interviews. He does not give one inch in arguing that the club is simply a private organization and the fact that it holds a public event doesn't change that fact.

"We have no timetable on a woman member," he says at one point. And then he says, "Racial discrimination and gender discrimination are different things."

Just as a historical note, the club did not allow African- Americans to play at the Masters at all until the early 70s and didn't have a black member of the club until 1990 at a time when the golf world was reeling from the issue of discrimination.

In a moment we'll talk with Martha Burk who started this battle. But first, we'll Steve Rushin from "Sports Illustrated" who did one of the interviews with Hootie Johnson. Steve, good to see you. He indicated, as I read the interview, it doesn't sound to me like a woman will be admitted to Augusta National any time soon or not so soon. It doesn't sound like it's going to happen.

STEVE RUSHIN, "SPORTS ILLUSTRATED": He said they have no timetable to admit a woman as a member and he said that the time may come when they do admit a woman. He has said that before but that time was "some time out in the future" was his exact phrase. For the time being, he said, we hold dear our traditions and, quote, "our constitutional rights to choose."

BROWN: He makes an almost impassionate defense of single-gender clubs. He talks about the comraderie of men being together, he talks about the all-male parties, that sort of thing.

RUSHIN: Right, they have all-male parties at Augusta, all-female parties. Women do play the course.

He likened the Augusta National to the Junior League and Girl Scouts. No one has come to my door trying to sell me cookies from Augusta but he puts them in the same league as single-gender organizations that have the constitutional right to have single-gender membership.

BROWN: And he just discounts the event because they hold this massively public event they are something other than a private club.

RUSHIN: What he said was -- and I'm hardly a spokesman, believe me. But what he said was because they hold this week-long event that 150 million people around the world watch every year brings happiness to golf fans and money to the community. Because we do that good for one week each year, we shouldn't be punished for it. Now, his punishment presumably is being forced, as he feels, to admit a woman as a member.

BROWN: You brought up the question of gender and race and he discounts the relationship at all. Do you press him on that as to why they are not linked?

RUSHIN: He simply answered that no constitutional lawyer would link the two or he put civil rights activist. I don't know about the latter. But he read part of his answer he read from a prepared, typewritten statement that I imagine a lawyer may have vetted at some point. He was very careful to read it from a prepared statement.

I did ask him why the club felt the need to admit African- American members or why the club admitted African-American members in 1990 and he said because it was the right thing to do. Presumably he doesn't feel that admitting a woman is the right thing to do.

BROWN: Twenty seconds or so, why did he do these interviews? Is he feeling the heat?

RUSHIN: He said he wasn't so much feeling the heat but clearly they are and clearly he felt the need to get his side of the story out. He thought that might do some good.

He also showed me a stack of 500 letters on his desk, over 99 percent of which, he said, were basically telling him stick to your guns, give them hell, don't admit a woman as a member. I think he feel that a large segment of America feels that way, whether he's right or wrong.

BROWN: Steve, thank you. Steve Rushin of "Sports Illustrated." His interview will appear in this week's edition.

Martha Burk started all of this by sending a letter to Augusta and Ms. Burk joins us now.

It's nice to see you. I gather you're not surprised or are you surprised by this set of interviews that Mr. Johnson gave?

MARTHA BURK, CHAIR, NAT. COUNCIL OF WOMEN'S ORGS.: Yes and no. I'm not surprised by anything Hootie Johnson does these days. He seems to be saying, Aaron, We've always discriminated, we like it that way, we intend to continue discriminating. I don't think it's the last word at all.

BROWN: Well, I don't think anyone does.

He makes the argument that gender and race are different, that if men want to hang with men they ought to be able to and that's different from racism. I gather you disagree there, too?

BURK: Of course I do. It is different from racism, it's sexism. He says no civil rights activism would make the statement that race and gender discrimination are the same. He's wrong about that.

I am a civil rights activist, have been for 35 years. And I believe they are the same. Julian Bond, who is the chair of the board of the NAACP put out a very strong statement in support of us and said discrimination is discrimination wherever we find it.

So Mr. Johnson is wrong about that and I know the American people agree with me.

BROWN: One of the arguments he makes and this is an interesting one to me, is that this is sort of the controversy of the moment but a year from now, it'll fade away, his sponsors will be back, you'll go away and the issue will be done.

BURK: I don't know of a single, responsible American corporation that would sponsor an event at a venue that discriminates against half of its customers. So I think he's wrong about that.

BROWN: Mr. Johnson also makes the argument this has gone pretty much the way he thought it would, chapter by chapter. Has it gone pretty much wait you thought it would chapter by chapter?

BURK: Well it's interesting, Aaron, because when this first came to the public light which I want to point out to the viewers was Augusta's choice, not mine. I had written a private letter. He laid out a whole program that said we would do a corporate campaign, we would go to the members, we would go to the sponsors, we would go to public. Of course we would do all that. We have done all that and intend to continue. The American people are with us on this.

BROWN: Ms. Burk, good to talk to you on this. We appreciate that as well. Martha Burke joining us on the Augusta Controversy.

Ted Turner and more when we continue tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Quick look at what is coming up tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING WITH PAULA ZAHN" -- here's Paula.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Aaron. Tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," the tornadoes came fast and furiously. Now, a region five states wide is beginning the recovery process, totaling the damage, and asking if any of those dozens of deaths could have been avoided. We are going to hear from some of the survivors whose homes were destroyed in an instant.

All that plus the latest overnight developments from Iraq tomorrow at 7:00 am Eastern -- Aaron.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Thank you, Paula. Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll talk to the founder of CNN, Ted Turner, about planting the seeds of capitalism in the third world and more. We are right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Ted Turner is one of those people who can make you nuts. He can and does say some pretty outrageous things. He also had the brains and the visions and the guts to start an all-news cable network when no one though he would make a dime doing that. Today, CNN makes a lot of dimes, and Mr. Turner has gone on to other things. We talked with him today.

He wanted to talk about a fascinating summit going on this week, a concept called microcredit, a way to help poor people in the world prosper, and he brought along the concept's creator, Mohammed Yunus. We wanted to talk about that too, but we also wanted to talk about the possibility of a CNN-ABC News merger. Mr. Turner has been mostly silent on that.

Like all guests, we made no deal with Mr. Turner about what we would ask, or not ask, and like all guests he had the option of answering or not.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: How can it be that micro-credit, small credit, loans as little as $200, maybe less, can dramatically change the fate of people's lives?

MOHAMMED YUNUS, FOUNDER, GRAMEEN MOVEMENT: Well, you can imagine how much $200 can grow. For many people who are making less than $1 a day, $200 is a lot of money.

And also, when I say less than $1 a day, it could be a few cents.

The first loan that I gave, when the whole thing began in 1976, was $27 to 42 people total.

BROWN: Half-a-buck a person.

YUNUS: Half-a-buck a person.

BROWN: And what did they do with that money?

YUNUS: First, buy some paddy, husk them, clean them, sell the rice, immediately bring some income.

If you can take a little bit bigger loan, you buy a cow and sell milk, pay back the bank, and you become the owner of the cow and the cow. Or start basket making. You buy the materials, make baskets, sell it to them.

BROWN: Where does the money come from?

YUNUS: In the beginning, what I did, I became a guarantor, personally. I signed the banks documents, take it from the commercial banks and give it to people. I took the risk. I didn't know whether people would pay back or not.

But after I have done the $27, that was from my own pocket. So there was such an excitement to the people when I gave that money, because they are borrowing it from the loan sharks with lots of trouble caused by that.

So I thought I can save these people from all this trouble and passing out all their income to the loan sharks. Why don't I give the money to them? $27 is no big deal.

I did that. And the excitement that it brought to those 42 people. I said, if you can achieve so much excitement to so many people with such a small amount of money, why shouldn't you do more of it.

So I thought of how to do that, and I thought maybe banks should lend the money. I went to the bank, and the bank said no, you cannot lend money to the poor people. Why not? Because they're not credit- worthy.

I said, how do you know? Have you ever done this? No. But we know. Poor people cannot pay back.

I said, can you change your minds? No, no way. It took me six months, going around, talking to the officials in the banks. Nobody agreed. So I offered myself as a guarantor. I said I'll sign the papers, you give the loan. So that's how it began.

BROWN: Just one more. I want to bring Mr. Turner into this in a minute. Who's getting this money, in what countries? What kinds of people are getting this money?

YUNUS: In Bangladesh, we began in 1976. The poor women, mostly.

Today we have 2.4 million borrowers in our bank, our main bank. 95 percent of them are women, women who never, most of them, never touched money in their life. Not just used it, but never touched money. Because the man handles this. This is their territory.

When we first said, well, we would like to give you money, they said no, I don't need the money. I can't take the money.

We said, why not? Because I'm scared of it. I don't want to touch it.

So this is the beginning. Now, they own the bank. They are the owners of this bank, a bank which over this period in a cumulative way gave nearly $4 billion U.S. worth of Bangladeshi money. And they have paid back this money, and continue to pay back.

The most exciting thing is, these women take money, change their life, pay back the money, and their repayment record is over 98 percent.

BROWN: Mr. Turner, what's your interest in this? How did you get interested in this, and what is it that you can do here that needs to be done, in your view?

TURNER: Well, a lot of it, really, is attributable to CNN.

When we started CNN, I started -- we put an emphasis on national and international news, because we weren't in the local news business. We were covering the whole country and then, of course, the world.

And the more I watched it, the more I realized how great the needs were in the developing world, and I just became part of the story.

I've used the latter part of my life to try and make the world a better place and join up forces with people like Mohammed here, and try and solve the world's problems, particularly the one of inequity between the rich and poor nations, to make it a more level playing field.

BROWN: We tend to think of these problems in a macro way. We tend to think of them as billions of dollars, or tens of billions of dollars. Do you actually, Mr. Turner, believe the world can be better...

TURNER: You can call me Ted.

BROWN: Then I shall. Ted, do you actually believe that the world can be bettered a couple hundred dollars at a time? TURNER: Absolutely. But it doesn't hurt to -- it doesn't hurt to have lots of money available too. Some problems take lots of money. Some don't take any money, don't take any money at all. They just take a change in attitude and a change in people's habits.

For instance, all the money in the world isn't necessary to have a clean country. We just got to stop throwing trash out the windows of our cars as we drive by. That doesn't cost anybody anything and makes the world a better place.

BROWN: Tell me why you are -- everybody in the media business, everyone who writes about media, thinks about media, wants to be if there's going to be this merger between ABC NEWS and CNN. Obviously, you have a feeling about this. Tell me why you will not talk about it, why you're reluctant to talk about it.

TURNER: Well, first of all, to my knowledge, there hasn't been any decision. There's discussions going on. No decision has been made, and my position as a member of the board and vice-chairman of AOL Time Warner, I'm kind of in an advisory role, not an executive role. And when there's discussions to be made with the press, it's more appropriate that they come from line management at the company rather than from me.

BROWN: You understand why everybody wants to know what Ted Turner thinks about this, though.

TURNER: ...be made with the press. It's more appropriate that they come from line management at the company rather than from me.

BROWN: You understand why everybody wants to know what Ted Turner thinks about this, though?

TURNER: Well maybe so. I don't know about that. But at any rate, I'm trying to keep my mouth shut and my head down.

BROWN: Thank you. Nice to meet you. Thank you for coming in. This is an interesting week for the project and we wish you lots of luck.

YUNUS: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you. Nice to meet you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Finally from us on this holiday night, the flag.

This is a story of a man who wanted to capture the feeling of patriotism that existed in the country in those early months after September 11 and came back with proof that patriotism can be expressed in as many ways as there are Americans.

His name is Don Pogany and he came out of his road trip with photos that make up "Our Flag Was Still There." His story is our way of marking Veterans Day. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DON POGANY, PHOTOGRAPHER: I was on my way to work in Chicago exactly a week after the attacks and I had my camera with me and I saw all the flags and ribbons that were displayed in my neighborhood and I decided I want to take photographs as a way to remember the response following the attacks.

And over the next few days I took more and more photographs in the city of Chicago and started thinking about putting together a collection of photographs.

I think a lot of people across the country felt the same way. The attacks obviously touched them emotionally, but they wanted to show something positive and patriotic and something from the heart as a response.

It became apparent to me that no matter where I went, I would see a tremendous amount of support and it became apparent that no matter where I went it, would be a little bit different in each particular place.

There were these hay bales down in Fort Valley, Georgia outside this peach orchard and I think it was representative of how original we are as people and how innovative we are as people, but also how diverse we are as people.

Meeting people behind all of the displays was definitely the best part of the journey. So many people along the way were affected by the tragedies and they were so far in terms proximity from them.

One that's become my favorite, it's a photograph of a man I'll call the drifter in Albuquerque, New Mexico. This picture of this man represented so much about America to me. He seemed free in this grand sense but he felt this real, real deep attachment to his country so much that he wanted to display the flag literally on his back.

There was a guy in Harrington, Delaware. His name is Clarence Barlow (ph). And for the last 10 years he's painted his barn roof. It happens to be in the flight path of Dover air force base. He says that every once in a while pilots flying back into the air base will actually sort of dip their wings in salute to the flag that he's painted.

I always looked forward to going into a different town because I knew there would be some expression of patriotism from kids there. It's amazing how emotional children are actually about our country and there were some very tender and poignant and sad responses from children about the attacks.

As Americans we were somewhat at a loss as for what to do and to extract some sort of positive meaning and to be able to preserve it in some way is meaningful for people. It's meaningful for me and it's meaningful when I see others see the photograph and see another part of the country and for them to be able to take these memories forward and say Yes, that was a special period, it was a sad period, but the way we responded was good.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That's our report for tonight. We hope you took a moment today to remember why this is a holiday.

We'll see you all again tomorrow at 10:00 Eastern time. Good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired November 11, 2002 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, I'm Aaron Brown. Here's a depressing thought, I turned 54 over the weekend and that means I only matter for another 364 more days. That's right. On the day I turn 55, I am irrelevant, not completely irrelevant of course, some of you will still like me but to advertisers irrelevant.
Advertisers, or at least the people who advise them, figured out that when you reach the ripe old age of 55 you are no longer willing to change your mind so you don't matter. If at 54, you decided you preferred Heinz over Hunts, well that's the way it's going to stay. At 54, you're willing to try new and improved Dawn. At 55, you stick with Palmolive.

Fifty-four-year-olds, or better yet those even younger, can be persuaded to try almost anything. They'll give up their Wrigley's for Trident. They will just because the ad is really cool trade their Chevy in for a Ford or the other way around. But those 55-year-olds and above, why they just stick to what they're used to.

There is a lot of research on this I'm sure and I know this is true of my mother. I tried to get her to eat Risotto once, a really good one, but after tasting it she told me she preferred rice. But it is rice, I said mom. Well, you know, she responded regular rice, see proof.

Now, I'm sure that some of you who are 55 or older think this is bunk. You may even be able to come up with an example of where you've changed your mind. Maybe you used to use Crest and now you use Colgate, or you used to like Whoppers but you were seduced recently by a Value Meal at Wendy's. Maybe you used to really love Jane but now you love Barbara. Congratulations to you but that's not normal. Normal is being stuck in your ways.

So, I'm going to try everything this year, a new beer, a different car, dump my old insurance company, say goodbye to my barbecue sauce, my soap, all of it and live large while I can. I want to make the most of being relevant for as long as it lasts and the clock, sadly, is ticking.

On to the news of the day and it begins in Tennessee where we start the whip. A tornado, deadly tornadoes that hit over the weekend, Miles O'Brien starts us off, Miles, a headline from you please.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: An unusual time of year, some unusual places, a stunning toll in the wake of some killer storms. BROWN: Miles, thank you, back to you at the top tonight. On to Baghdad and some of the political theater going on responding to the U.N. resolution involving Iraq, Jane Arraf is there for us, Jane a headline from you tonight.

JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: An emergency session of Iraq's parliament is condemning that resolution and recommending that Iraq reject it but that might not be the final word.

BROWN: Jane, thank you, good to see you. And the first tonight in a series of reports on life in Saudi Arabia, the place that brought us 15 of the 19 hijackers, Christiane Amanpour has that, Christiane a headline from you.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, more than a year after September 11th, Saudi Arabia is still extremely defensive about the role those 15 played in those terrible attacks, still very bitter, perhaps as bitter as America itself. But, it is instituting very slowly, beginning to institute some fundamental changes.

BROWN: Christiane, thank you, back with you shortly, all of you in a moment. Also coming up on the program, always a really tough assignment interviewing the man, our talk with Ted Turner and his partner for the day Mohammad Yunus on the idea of giving small loans, quite small, to the poorest of the poor around the world and how it changes their lives. And, oh yes, we bring up the hot topic of the moment around our water coolers and in the media pages these days, the possibility of a merger between ABC News and CNN.

Also the fight over letting women become members at Augusta National Golf Club, there's not debate it seems in the mind of August Chairman Hootie Johnson. Mr. Johnson in interviews being published tomorrow is more defiant than ever. We'll talk with a woman who's trying to force a change, Martha Burk (ph) of the National Council of Women's Organizations and Steve Rushin (ph) one of the reporters to interview Mr. Johnson.

So, it's a full Monday night. We begin with the storms that laid waste to so much of the country. From Alabama to Ohio, the tornadoes came and people died. Homes were destroyed and businesses ruined. It was the worst devastation but, in all honesty, we have little in the way of words to describe it. The pictures say it all and our first look tonight comes from CNN's Miles O'Brien.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN (voice over): Two weeks before Thanksgiving is not the season for tornadoes but don't bother telling that to folks who live in Mossy Grove, Tennessee, or Walker County, Alabama, or Van Wert, Ohio. In those places, it is now the day after. The sun rose this morning on a season of sadness.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't know what to think when you see this. You think well it didn't happen to you but you pray for the people it did happen to.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have nothing. It's like you got to start your life all over again but we're alive. That's all that matters.

O'BRIEN: Thirty-six people are now confirmed dead, dozens injured, many others missing in the wake of the storm that swept from north to south across the eastern half of the country, spurning no less than 50 funnel clouds, some of the spinning at better than 200 miles an hour, flattening, uprooting, or snapping just about anything in their path.

DON SIEGELMAN, ALABAMA GOVERNOR: Outlying parts of the county, the houses are totally annihilated, devastated. I mean it's like somebody, you know, wrapped up sticks of dynamite and just blew these things, these homes into little tiny pieces.

O'BRIEN: As is always the case, the damage was capricious and the stories of survival seemingly miraculous. In Van Wert, Ohio, 60 movie watchers walked away unscathed because they were warned and got out of their seats before the theater became a drive-in. But in places where tornadoes are rare, there was less warning.

In Morgan County, Tennessee, where they have seen only three tornadoes in 53 years one of the worst sites of death and destruction, seven were killed in Mossy Grove alone, a community so small it does not appear on most maps. Now, it is struggling to rebuild.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everybody's hugging each other and just glad to see that everybody's all right, and everybody's checking on everybody.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN (on camera): And, while they're checking on everybody, the authorities in this area have cordoned off all the areas hard hit by the tornadoes. The concern here is with the power out, there might be looting, sort of the best and the worst comes out of people in the wake of such things -- Aaron.

BROWN: Is everyone now accounted for?

O'BRIEN: No, there's still 12 people missing in this part of the world, Aaron. I think that's missing with a lower case 'm.' It could be just people who have not touched base. Nevertheless, the search continues. Authorities are not trying to give us too much of an undertone to all that and the possibility of more fatalities. Nevertheless, 12 people still unaccounted for.

BROWN: Miles, thank you, Miles O'Brien. Tonight, all across the region, people who might have been killed survived the storm instead. Some got early warning, as Miles indicated. Some, only a few minutes of warning, even seconds before the tornadoes hit, but enough time to take cover. Others, of course, got no warning at all. Instead they got lucky. Here's CNN's Jeff Flock.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF FLOCK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): This is what it looked like heading for town. Over at the Van Wert Cinemas, they were watching "Santa Clause 2" when the emergency radio system started sending out warnings.

STEPHEN GHERES, MAYOR: One of them was directly to the theater here and the theater people did a wonderful job by acting on it.

FLOCK: About 60 people left in the theater raced to the bathrooms and hallways. Jessica Ross says everyone was running and crying.

JESSICA ROSS, SURVIVOR: And then we all ran into the bathroom and tried to get whatever we could get and cover ourselves and then we could feel it shaking.

FLOCK: You weren't upset though?

ROSS: No, I was just like, hold on, please be with me. I was just like praying the whole time, please don't let me die.

FLOCK: No one died. We met Jessica as she watched them drag out two cars that had blown into the middle of the seats where everyone had been sitting. Without the emergency warning, Mayor Stephen Gheres told us...

GHERES: I think all the kids would be dead now.

FLOCK (on camera): Instead, everyone who was here at the movies lived through an experience that sounds like it could have been out of a movie. I'm Jeff Flock CNN, in Van Wert, Ohio.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: In other news tonight, the sniper case got a little bit simpler but in some ways more complicated as well, simpler in that we know more about the crime. Young John Lee Malvo apparently talked at great length to authorities but it also got more complicated because of young Mr. Malvo's juvenile status. Will investigators be able to admit into court what they heard from him? Here's CNN's Patty Davis.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PATTY DAVIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): A senior source tells CNN 17-year-old John Lee Malvo has told investigators he pulled the trigger in some of the sniper shootings. That includes the murder of FBI Analyst Linda Franklin outside this Home Depot in Falls Church, Virginia October 14.

Those statements came during seven to eight hours of interrogation by authorities in Virginia without Malvo's lawyer present. Because of that, his court-appointed lawyer says he will move to suppress anything incriminating. Even though Malvo is a juvenile, legal experts say his statements will most likely be admissible in court.

PAUL KAMENAR, WASHINGTON LEGAL FDN: I think his statements will be admissible as long as the police did read him his rights and as long as Malvo knowingly and voluntarily waived those rights. DAVIS: Unlike previous interrogations, Malvo is said to have been very talkative. Among evidence investigators say they found in John Muhammad's blue Chevy Caprice, two-way radios. CNN's source says Malvo described the shootings as a military type operation and that he and his partner communicated with two-way radios.

Malvo is being tried as an adult. The 17-year-old's court- appointed guardian says he tried to intervene during the questioning but was escorted out of the building. Some say that could give the defense an opening.

JERALYN MERRITT, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: For the same reason that juveniles are considered not allowed to vote, not allowed to marry, not allowed to own property, they're considered not old enough to be interrogated in the absence of a parent or guardian.

DAVIS (on camera): Malvo's guardian says he hopes to track Malvo's mother down so she knows that her son could face the death penalty in Virginia if convicted of his alleged crimes. Patty Davis CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: President Bush marked Veterans Day with a country at war on a number of fronts and on the brink of war with Iraq. Iraq has until Friday to accept the terms of the U.N. Security Council resolution and let weapons inspectors back in. Today at Arlington National Cemetery, the president signaled again his impatience.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This great nation will not live at the mercy of any foreign plot or power. The dictator of Iraq will fully disarm or the United States will lead a coalition and disarm him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Iraqi lawmakers meantime spent the day attacking the Security Council resolution. They'll go back at it again tomorrow, but appearances aside, only one voice matters in Iraq and so far no one knows what Saddam Hussein will do. Smart money says he'll string things along a bit longer before giving in but whatever his decision, it's a pretty safe bet his parliament will agree. For the latest on the state of play, we go back to Baghdad and CNN's Jane Arraf -- Jane.

ARRAF: Hi, Aaron. Well, those lawmakers discussed late into the night the resolution and predictably they condemned it. They said it was unworkable, impossible to comply with, and basically a recipe for a U.S. attack. They also recommended, many of them, that Iraq reject it but that's not really the word that matters. They will send their recommendation to the body that does matter, the Revolution Command Council, chaired by the Iraqi president.

Now, this is a really interesting dilemma going on because Iraq is expected to accept this resolution, but to do that it basically has to reverse what it's been saying for years, months, and weeks, about having the weapons inspectors back and this resolution in general. Now, it's going to have to say that actually the weapons inspectors are welcome to return and it wants to give them unconditional access -- Aaron.

BROWN: In any way, how does this parallel how the Iraqi behaved before the first Gulf War?

ARRAF: In terms of the weapons inspections, this is such a different scenario I think that the feeling is that really it's a whole different ballgame because this really is a last chance. Before the first Gulf War, and after the Gulf War when the weapons inspectors came for the first time and stayed here for seven years, we have to remember, there really was a feeling that there was time to spare and that's probably why it took seven years when that disarmament process was intended to take six months after the Gulf War.

Now, there's a very strict deadline in this resolution to get things moving along and get things done and there's a real realization in the leadership here that it really doesn't have any more chances, that this may indeed be its very last chance to do this -- Aaron.

BROWN: And, on the street, is there a sense the clock is ticking?

ARRAF: There is. You know that clock ticking is heard very clearly here most of the time because it seems that Iraq has been under one sort of threat or another. Now, it's much louder these days with the deadline basically. We're racing towards that deadline for Iraq to accept the resolution and then several more deadlines that have to be met to avoid Iraq being in further material breach of the Gulf War and risk being attacked.

That includes complying with declarations for the weapons, having the inspectors come back, and having them go anywhere they want to in the country and unrestricted, unconditional access, which is a pretty tall order, so people here have a real apprehension about what could happen during the next coming weeks and the coming months -- Aaron.

BROWN: Jane, thank you, Jane Arraf in Baghdad tonight. We'll be seeing more of her in the weeks ahead no doubt. Later on NEWSNIGHT, we'll talk to CNN founder Ted Turner. Up next, Christiane Amanpour in a special look at a critical U.S. partner, Saudi Arabia. Tonight we take a look at what kids are learning in school there, that and more. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Tonight and for the rest of the week, we'll be looking at Saudi Arabia and how Saudis and Americans see one another. This is a relationship that got a whole lot more strained on the 11th of September a year ago, but has always been complicated and is getting more so each day. There is resentment, a resentment that comes from each country having what the other country can't easily live without, their oil, our military strength. There's a divide over United States support for Israel and Saudi reluctance to back the United States against Iraq. There's a growing suspicion that Saudi Arabia is preaching and teaching a brand of intolerance that breeds terrorism. The Saudis say things are changing. Take another look, they ask, and so we did. Here's CNN's Christiane Amanpour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR (voice over): At this weekly audience, known as the Majles (ph) Saudis meet, greet, and petition their country's de facto ruler Crown Prince Abdullah, and these days he's developed a message for them. In speeches, gatherings and in the press, he's telling them to stick to moderate Islam and shun provocative actions.

AMANPOUR (on camera): Ever since September 11th, the spotlight has been on Saudi Arabia's austere brand of Islam. Why did 15 young Saudis take part in those attacks? What's being preached in the mosques or taught in the schools that might encourage hatred or anti- Americanism?

AMANPOUR (voice over): Saudis heatedly deny their system graduates terrorists. At the same time, though, there is an unprecedented sensitivity to the need for new thinking.

PRINCE SULTAN BIN SALMAN, DIRECTOR, TOURISM COMMISSION: Of course there are certain aspects of education system (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that has to be examined and this self examination is going on and it's going on even faster now maybe after the focus of September 11th.

AMANPOUR: Five to ten percent of what's in Saudi textbooks was found to be objectionable. What Saudis call anti-Zionist material is now being removed and an urgent review of the national education system is calling for language, computer science, and technology, to be taught in English from grade school.

DUAA HAMDUDA (ph), DIETITIAN: I would like to be more creative and to be able to have critical thinking rather than the spoon-feeding education.

AMANPOUR: For the first time in Saudi Arabia, the public is demanding educational reforms to prepare students to integrate into the modern world and its job market.

DR. FAHAD ABDEL JABBER, DIRECTOR, KING ABDUL AZIZ MEDICAL CITY: I think the curriculum has to be changed. It has to be developed. It has to be contemporary, that curriculum. This is, I think, very important. They are actually getting more and more enlightened people that are having influence and they are overcoming the extremists.

AMANPOUR: Religious classes still form about a quarter of the curriculum and some people now admit that some of those do foster hatred of non-Muslims. But the head of Islamic studies at this school says that shouldn't happen.

TAHSIN ABDUL LATIF, KING FAISAL SCHOOL (through translator): Islam is not a religion that fosters (UNINTELLIGIBLE) or ignorance or hatred towards others. On the contrary, it's a religion that teaches students to like others and to think well about them.

AMANPOUR: Saudi Arabia has developed a shiny, modern infrastructure and modern message are beamed in via the Internet and satellite television. Now faced with a delicate balancing act, even Saudi rulers say they need to develop a more modern way of thinking to match.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR (on camera): The big focus has been on the money going from alleged charities or wealthy individuals to allegedly some of these terrorist groups. According to a top U.S. diplomat in Saudi Arabia, the Crown Prince has recently met with many of these charities and they've instituted, he says, some kind of transparency mechanism and made serious warnings to these charities not to misuse their funds and have instituted some kind of infrastructure to control better the funds that go to these charities -- Aaron.

BROWN: Let's try a couple things, Christiane. Number one, just how freely are you able to report out of Saudi Arabia? Are there minders with you all the time? Are you allowed to go where you want to go or is it difficult?

AMANPOUR: Well, I think the answer to those is yes. Basically it is difficult and yes we did have minders following us, but the minders were more, if you like, facilitators. There wasn't really a place that I asked to go that I was not allowed to go; however, it is difficult particularly with a camera. People are very reluctant, even women. You'll see some pieces that I've done, you know, coming this week.

It's very difficult to get women to agree to be interviewed on camera, and of course, it's very difficult to penetrate the netherworlds of whether it's financing or some of these Islamic classes. But what I found interesting was that for the first time there is a sense of introspection and just the fact that that is happening is, in itself, quite remarkable in Saudi Arabia, which has changed really in a glacial fashion.

BROWN: Christiane, thank you, a fascinating look. We look forward to the rest of the week. Christiane Amanpour who's made her way back to London and will join us this week all the way through.

On to other matters, there are lies that will not die, no matter how many stakes you drive through their hearts. Take the book called "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion," long exposed as a forgery that was cooked up by the secret police in the days of the Czar in Russia.

The protocols purport to be the minutes of a meeting of a cabal of Jews boasting of their invincibility, plotting to establish sovereignty over all of the world, to form a super government administration that will subdue all nations. There are also tidbits about the sacramental use of blood of Christian infants. Sounds like bang up entertainment, wouldn't you say? That's what an Egyptian TV company thought as well.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice over): It's called "Horseman Without a Horse," a month-long miniseries independently produced in Egypt but beamed by satellite to much of the Arab world. And this is Ramadan, a time of the year for blockbusters equivalent to sweep season in this country.

Many Muslims go home to break their daytime fast and watch TV, and what they are watching night after night, all month long, is a melodrama based in large part on the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion," a volume Adolf Hitler was quite keen on. In other parts of the world, there is consternation and sadness and anger over this, but Egyptians, a government spokesman among them, sees it another way.

MOHAMMAD SOBHI, WRITER AND ACTOR "HORSEMAN WITHOUT A HORSE": Here we are dealing with a work of art and we should deal with the work of art on its merits and demerits. But, any political blackmail from any quarter will not be accepted.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): One minute of news seen by the kids in the Arab world is much worse than when it is mentioned in the "Protocols of Zion."

BROWN: Maybe we oughtn't get on our high horse too much about "Horseman Without a Horse." The protocols have been passed from hand- to-hand in this country too. Henry Ford published them in a newspaper he owned in Michigan back in the 1920s. And today do an Internet search, you'll find dozens of Web sites breathlessly passing on the secrets revealed in an old pamphlet full of even older lies.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): This is not anti- Semitic. It is only showing the facts.

BROWN: It's not about gullibility, really. It's about wanting to believe and there is a different, a big one.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (on camera): Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, we'll talk micro- credit and other things with Ted Turner. Up next, the uproar over whether Augusta National should admit women, a new chapter written tonight. We're right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A few stories from around the world making news tonight, beginning with violence in the Middle East. Reuters is reporting that an Israeli army is moving into the West Bank camp of Poharm (ph). The move came after a Palestinian attack on a Kibbutz today, rather yesterday. The attack left five people dead, a mother and her two children among them.

Violence in Gaza as well, two Israeli Apache helicopters fired on a target in central Gaza City early today. At least four missiles fired. They appeared to be targeting a workshop. Also in Gaza, Palestinian hospital sources say a two-year-old died after being hit by gunfire, three other children hurt at a place where there's often been shooting between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

On to what seems to be a defection from Cuba, a Cuban plane, eight people aboard, landed in Key West, Florida today. The people onboard will be placed in the custody of the Immigration and Naturalization Service after they are questioned by the FBI. Cubans who reach U.S. soil are typically released and get permanent residency after one year.

And, just when you think it can not get much more sordid, it does. Diana's butler, Paul Burrell, was in New York today but then considering the latest uproar going on in Britain, allegations that an aide to Prince Charles once raped a male servant. There's speculation that Burrell had a taped recollection by the servant that Princess Diana had been keeping. Burrell denies this. This is a huge story in London.

Later on NEWSNIGHT we'll talk with Ted Turner. Up next, we'll take a look at the latest chapter in the flap over Augusta. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

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BROWN: The battle over Augusta National after a short break.

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BROWN: For months now the controversy has been swirling around Augusta National Golf Club, the host of the Masters, one of golf's premiere events, and it's refusal to admit a woman for membership. The chairman of the club issued a long and angry letter a few months back saying the club was being threatened by a woman's group. He later said the tournament would go on without commercials so that it's three sponsors would not be harmed. And then Hootie Johnson went silent and the controversy swirled.

Some club members, some who are big names in business world, said they would work quietly to change the club's policies. Most of 300 members stayed silent. Mr. Johnson is now smoking again in a series of interviews. He does not give one inch in arguing that the club is simply a private organization and the fact that it holds a public event doesn't change that fact.

"We have no timetable on a woman member," he says at one point. And then he says, "Racial discrimination and gender discrimination are different things."

Just as a historical note, the club did not allow African- Americans to play at the Masters at all until the early 70s and didn't have a black member of the club until 1990 at a time when the golf world was reeling from the issue of discrimination.

In a moment we'll talk with Martha Burk who started this battle. But first, we'll Steve Rushin from "Sports Illustrated" who did one of the interviews with Hootie Johnson. Steve, good to see you. He indicated, as I read the interview, it doesn't sound to me like a woman will be admitted to Augusta National any time soon or not so soon. It doesn't sound like it's going to happen.

STEVE RUSHIN, "SPORTS ILLUSTRATED": He said they have no timetable to admit a woman as a member and he said that the time may come when they do admit a woman. He has said that before but that time was "some time out in the future" was his exact phrase. For the time being, he said, we hold dear our traditions and, quote, "our constitutional rights to choose."

BROWN: He makes an almost impassionate defense of single-gender clubs. He talks about the comraderie of men being together, he talks about the all-male parties, that sort of thing.

RUSHIN: Right, they have all-male parties at Augusta, all-female parties. Women do play the course.

He likened the Augusta National to the Junior League and Girl Scouts. No one has come to my door trying to sell me cookies from Augusta but he puts them in the same league as single-gender organizations that have the constitutional right to have single-gender membership.

BROWN: And he just discounts the event because they hold this massively public event they are something other than a private club.

RUSHIN: What he said was -- and I'm hardly a spokesman, believe me. But what he said was because they hold this week-long event that 150 million people around the world watch every year brings happiness to golf fans and money to the community. Because we do that good for one week each year, we shouldn't be punished for it. Now, his punishment presumably is being forced, as he feels, to admit a woman as a member.

BROWN: You brought up the question of gender and race and he discounts the relationship at all. Do you press him on that as to why they are not linked?

RUSHIN: He simply answered that no constitutional lawyer would link the two or he put civil rights activist. I don't know about the latter. But he read part of his answer he read from a prepared, typewritten statement that I imagine a lawyer may have vetted at some point. He was very careful to read it from a prepared statement.

I did ask him why the club felt the need to admit African- American members or why the club admitted African-American members in 1990 and he said because it was the right thing to do. Presumably he doesn't feel that admitting a woman is the right thing to do.

BROWN: Twenty seconds or so, why did he do these interviews? Is he feeling the heat?

RUSHIN: He said he wasn't so much feeling the heat but clearly they are and clearly he felt the need to get his side of the story out. He thought that might do some good.

He also showed me a stack of 500 letters on his desk, over 99 percent of which, he said, were basically telling him stick to your guns, give them hell, don't admit a woman as a member. I think he feel that a large segment of America feels that way, whether he's right or wrong.

BROWN: Steve, thank you. Steve Rushin of "Sports Illustrated." His interview will appear in this week's edition.

Martha Burk started all of this by sending a letter to Augusta and Ms. Burk joins us now.

It's nice to see you. I gather you're not surprised or are you surprised by this set of interviews that Mr. Johnson gave?

MARTHA BURK, CHAIR, NAT. COUNCIL OF WOMEN'S ORGS.: Yes and no. I'm not surprised by anything Hootie Johnson does these days. He seems to be saying, Aaron, We've always discriminated, we like it that way, we intend to continue discriminating. I don't think it's the last word at all.

BROWN: Well, I don't think anyone does.

He makes the argument that gender and race are different, that if men want to hang with men they ought to be able to and that's different from racism. I gather you disagree there, too?

BURK: Of course I do. It is different from racism, it's sexism. He says no civil rights activism would make the statement that race and gender discrimination are the same. He's wrong about that.

I am a civil rights activist, have been for 35 years. And I believe they are the same. Julian Bond, who is the chair of the board of the NAACP put out a very strong statement in support of us and said discrimination is discrimination wherever we find it.

So Mr. Johnson is wrong about that and I know the American people agree with me.

BROWN: One of the arguments he makes and this is an interesting one to me, is that this is sort of the controversy of the moment but a year from now, it'll fade away, his sponsors will be back, you'll go away and the issue will be done.

BURK: I don't know of a single, responsible American corporation that would sponsor an event at a venue that discriminates against half of its customers. So I think he's wrong about that.

BROWN: Mr. Johnson also makes the argument this has gone pretty much the way he thought it would, chapter by chapter. Has it gone pretty much wait you thought it would chapter by chapter?

BURK: Well it's interesting, Aaron, because when this first came to the public light which I want to point out to the viewers was Augusta's choice, not mine. I had written a private letter. He laid out a whole program that said we would do a corporate campaign, we would go to the members, we would go to the sponsors, we would go to public. Of course we would do all that. We have done all that and intend to continue. The American people are with us on this.

BROWN: Ms. Burk, good to talk to you on this. We appreciate that as well. Martha Burke joining us on the Augusta Controversy.

Ted Turner and more when we continue tonight.

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BROWN: Quick look at what is coming up tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING WITH PAULA ZAHN" -- here's Paula.

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PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Aaron. Tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," the tornadoes came fast and furiously. Now, a region five states wide is beginning the recovery process, totaling the damage, and asking if any of those dozens of deaths could have been avoided. We are going to hear from some of the survivors whose homes were destroyed in an instant.

All that plus the latest overnight developments from Iraq tomorrow at 7:00 am Eastern -- Aaron.

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BROWN: Thank you, Paula. Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll talk to the founder of CNN, Ted Turner, about planting the seeds of capitalism in the third world and more. We are right back.

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BROWN: Ted Turner is one of those people who can make you nuts. He can and does say some pretty outrageous things. He also had the brains and the visions and the guts to start an all-news cable network when no one though he would make a dime doing that. Today, CNN makes a lot of dimes, and Mr. Turner has gone on to other things. We talked with him today.

He wanted to talk about a fascinating summit going on this week, a concept called microcredit, a way to help poor people in the world prosper, and he brought along the concept's creator, Mohammed Yunus. We wanted to talk about that too, but we also wanted to talk about the possibility of a CNN-ABC News merger. Mr. Turner has been mostly silent on that.

Like all guests, we made no deal with Mr. Turner about what we would ask, or not ask, and like all guests he had the option of answering or not.

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BROWN: How can it be that micro-credit, small credit, loans as little as $200, maybe less, can dramatically change the fate of people's lives?

MOHAMMED YUNUS, FOUNDER, GRAMEEN MOVEMENT: Well, you can imagine how much $200 can grow. For many people who are making less than $1 a day, $200 is a lot of money.

And also, when I say less than $1 a day, it could be a few cents.

The first loan that I gave, when the whole thing began in 1976, was $27 to 42 people total.

BROWN: Half-a-buck a person.

YUNUS: Half-a-buck a person.

BROWN: And what did they do with that money?

YUNUS: First, buy some paddy, husk them, clean them, sell the rice, immediately bring some income.

If you can take a little bit bigger loan, you buy a cow and sell milk, pay back the bank, and you become the owner of the cow and the cow. Or start basket making. You buy the materials, make baskets, sell it to them.

BROWN: Where does the money come from?

YUNUS: In the beginning, what I did, I became a guarantor, personally. I signed the banks documents, take it from the commercial banks and give it to people. I took the risk. I didn't know whether people would pay back or not.

But after I have done the $27, that was from my own pocket. So there was such an excitement to the people when I gave that money, because they are borrowing it from the loan sharks with lots of trouble caused by that.

So I thought I can save these people from all this trouble and passing out all their income to the loan sharks. Why don't I give the money to them? $27 is no big deal.

I did that. And the excitement that it brought to those 42 people. I said, if you can achieve so much excitement to so many people with such a small amount of money, why shouldn't you do more of it.

So I thought of how to do that, and I thought maybe banks should lend the money. I went to the bank, and the bank said no, you cannot lend money to the poor people. Why not? Because they're not credit- worthy.

I said, how do you know? Have you ever done this? No. But we know. Poor people cannot pay back.

I said, can you change your minds? No, no way. It took me six months, going around, talking to the officials in the banks. Nobody agreed. So I offered myself as a guarantor. I said I'll sign the papers, you give the loan. So that's how it began.

BROWN: Just one more. I want to bring Mr. Turner into this in a minute. Who's getting this money, in what countries? What kinds of people are getting this money?

YUNUS: In Bangladesh, we began in 1976. The poor women, mostly.

Today we have 2.4 million borrowers in our bank, our main bank. 95 percent of them are women, women who never, most of them, never touched money in their life. Not just used it, but never touched money. Because the man handles this. This is their territory.

When we first said, well, we would like to give you money, they said no, I don't need the money. I can't take the money.

We said, why not? Because I'm scared of it. I don't want to touch it.

So this is the beginning. Now, they own the bank. They are the owners of this bank, a bank which over this period in a cumulative way gave nearly $4 billion U.S. worth of Bangladeshi money. And they have paid back this money, and continue to pay back.

The most exciting thing is, these women take money, change their life, pay back the money, and their repayment record is over 98 percent.

BROWN: Mr. Turner, what's your interest in this? How did you get interested in this, and what is it that you can do here that needs to be done, in your view?

TURNER: Well, a lot of it, really, is attributable to CNN.

When we started CNN, I started -- we put an emphasis on national and international news, because we weren't in the local news business. We were covering the whole country and then, of course, the world.

And the more I watched it, the more I realized how great the needs were in the developing world, and I just became part of the story.

I've used the latter part of my life to try and make the world a better place and join up forces with people like Mohammed here, and try and solve the world's problems, particularly the one of inequity between the rich and poor nations, to make it a more level playing field.

BROWN: We tend to think of these problems in a macro way. We tend to think of them as billions of dollars, or tens of billions of dollars. Do you actually, Mr. Turner, believe the world can be better...

TURNER: You can call me Ted.

BROWN: Then I shall. Ted, do you actually believe that the world can be bettered a couple hundred dollars at a time? TURNER: Absolutely. But it doesn't hurt to -- it doesn't hurt to have lots of money available too. Some problems take lots of money. Some don't take any money, don't take any money at all. They just take a change in attitude and a change in people's habits.

For instance, all the money in the world isn't necessary to have a clean country. We just got to stop throwing trash out the windows of our cars as we drive by. That doesn't cost anybody anything and makes the world a better place.

BROWN: Tell me why you are -- everybody in the media business, everyone who writes about media, thinks about media, wants to be if there's going to be this merger between ABC NEWS and CNN. Obviously, you have a feeling about this. Tell me why you will not talk about it, why you're reluctant to talk about it.

TURNER: Well, first of all, to my knowledge, there hasn't been any decision. There's discussions going on. No decision has been made, and my position as a member of the board and vice-chairman of AOL Time Warner, I'm kind of in an advisory role, not an executive role. And when there's discussions to be made with the press, it's more appropriate that they come from line management at the company rather than from me.

BROWN: You understand why everybody wants to know what Ted Turner thinks about this, though.

TURNER: ...be made with the press. It's more appropriate that they come from line management at the company rather than from me.

BROWN: You understand why everybody wants to know what Ted Turner thinks about this, though?

TURNER: Well maybe so. I don't know about that. But at any rate, I'm trying to keep my mouth shut and my head down.

BROWN: Thank you. Nice to meet you. Thank you for coming in. This is an interesting week for the project and we wish you lots of luck.

YUNUS: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you. Nice to meet you.

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BROWN: Finally from us on this holiday night, the flag.

This is a story of a man who wanted to capture the feeling of patriotism that existed in the country in those early months after September 11 and came back with proof that patriotism can be expressed in as many ways as there are Americans.

His name is Don Pogany and he came out of his road trip with photos that make up "Our Flag Was Still There." His story is our way of marking Veterans Day. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DON POGANY, PHOTOGRAPHER: I was on my way to work in Chicago exactly a week after the attacks and I had my camera with me and I saw all the flags and ribbons that were displayed in my neighborhood and I decided I want to take photographs as a way to remember the response following the attacks.

And over the next few days I took more and more photographs in the city of Chicago and started thinking about putting together a collection of photographs.

I think a lot of people across the country felt the same way. The attacks obviously touched them emotionally, but they wanted to show something positive and patriotic and something from the heart as a response.

It became apparent to me that no matter where I went, I would see a tremendous amount of support and it became apparent that no matter where I went it, would be a little bit different in each particular place.

There were these hay bales down in Fort Valley, Georgia outside this peach orchard and I think it was representative of how original we are as people and how innovative we are as people, but also how diverse we are as people.

Meeting people behind all of the displays was definitely the best part of the journey. So many people along the way were affected by the tragedies and they were so far in terms proximity from them.

One that's become my favorite, it's a photograph of a man I'll call the drifter in Albuquerque, New Mexico. This picture of this man represented so much about America to me. He seemed free in this grand sense but he felt this real, real deep attachment to his country so much that he wanted to display the flag literally on his back.

There was a guy in Harrington, Delaware. His name is Clarence Barlow (ph). And for the last 10 years he's painted his barn roof. It happens to be in the flight path of Dover air force base. He says that every once in a while pilots flying back into the air base will actually sort of dip their wings in salute to the flag that he's painted.

I always looked forward to going into a different town because I knew there would be some expression of patriotism from kids there. It's amazing how emotional children are actually about our country and there were some very tender and poignant and sad responses from children about the attacks.

As Americans we were somewhat at a loss as for what to do and to extract some sort of positive meaning and to be able to preserve it in some way is meaningful for people. It's meaningful for me and it's meaningful when I see others see the photograph and see another part of the country and for them to be able to take these memories forward and say Yes, that was a special period, it was a sad period, but the way we responded was good.

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BROWN: That's our report for tonight. We hope you took a moment today to remember why this is a holiday.

We'll see you all again tomorrow at 10:00 Eastern time. Good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

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