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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Illinois Governor Pardons Four Death Row Inmates; Interview With Kevin Lyons; Is North Korea Using Nukes As U.S. Attack Deterrent

Aired January 11, 2003 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, HOST: And good evening again, everyone. Much of the program tonight literally centers around life and death. Today, the governor of Illinois pardoned four people who had been on death row. All had confessed to murders. And, according to the governor, there is plenty of reason to believe all were tortured into confessing.
Tomorrow, the governor may commute to life the sentences of well over 100 other people on death row, because the governor came to believe the death penalty system in the state of Illinois was broken, a failure. There are very likely going to be a lot of unhappy people in Illinois tomorrow. But if the governor is right, if the Illinois system for deciding who should be put to death and who should live is a failed system, then a word or two is in order about those it has failed. And it's not just the people on death row.

The families of the victims have been failed by this system as well. They put their faith in the system. They expected that everyone from the cop on the beat on up would do the job right and fairly, and that once the bad guy was charged and convicted and sentenced, they could at least find some peace in that. And yet over the past year, the families have had to relive their personal nightmares over and over again, telling their stories to a commission looking into the cases, wondering what might become of the person they believe killed their loved one and most likely did.

This was awful to watch and must have been a thousand times worse to have lived through. And while we also believe the governor has taken a principled and courageous stand, the sort of thing few politicians anywhere anytime are willing to do, our hearts go out to the victims' families tonight for the pain that for them must seem unending.

That's our lead story tonight, what is going on in Illinois. Jeff Flock has been working it for a while now. Jeff, a headline from you.

JEFF FLOCK, CNN CHICAGO BUREAU CHIEF: Aaron, dramatic developments here in Chicago tonight. Four pardons, likely four more dramatic developments tomorrow. Perhaps commutations of sentences for men who may well not be innocent.

BROWN: Jeff, back you to at the top tonight. Now to a development in the war on terror involving the group called the Buffalo Six. Susan Candiotti has worked that now for months. Susan, a headline please. SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron. One of the Buffalo Six says, OK, I did it. I knew it was wrong. But I did go to an al Qaeda training camp. I bought a uniform. I learned how to use explosives. And he reveals for first time more details about what Osama bin Laden told the group just a few months before the September 11 attacks.

BROWN: Susan, thank you. On to New Jersey and the ongoing look at three children lost in the child welfare system there. And other kids we may not know about. Jamie Colby is with us tonight. Jamie, a headline from you.

JAMIE COLBY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There are sweeping new child welfare rules meant to protect New Jersey kids. So why are 110 still missing -- Aaron.

BROWN: Thank you, Jamie. And to North Korea and the tensions that will not go away, Andrea Koppel from the State Department tonight. Andrea, the headline from you.

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, today North Korea threatened World War III if more economic sanctions are levied against it. But here in Washington, Secretary of State Colin Powell and the head of the IAEA signaled that barring a breakthrough, that's exactly where they're headed.

BROWN: Andrea, thank you. Back to all of you shortly. Also coming up tonight, we'll talk with an Illinois prosecutor who is outraged by what the governor in the state is doing. Someone who says the three men he prosecuted deserve to be on death row and should stay there.

New Jersey's Governor Jim McGreevey on the storm of controversy over those three little boys, what the state plans to do to prevent more tragedies. You'll hear from him tonight as well.

And $41 never tasted so good. We pay homage tonight to the world's most expensive -- man that looks good -- hamburger. But that's dessert.

We begin tonight with the governor and the death penalty. With what the governor of the state of Illinois did today and what he's expected to do tomorrow, after grappling for three years with how his state administers the ultimate punishment. Three years ago he wrote the first chapter in this story. This weekend he'll write the latest. Not the last of that, we're fairly sure.

As you'll see tonight, the debate over crime and punishment and life and death will not be settled by pardons today or whatever comes to pass tomorrow. We begin with Jeff Flock, who joins us from Chicago. Jeff, good evening.

FLOCK: Indeed, I think you're absolutely right, Aaron. This is only the beginning in some sense, even though George Ryan's term ends on Monday. What he did today as a sort of last stroke was pardon four men on death row, sentenced to death. One man who had been there for 19 years. Men he says were wrongly convicted. He truly believes they're innocent.

As to what will happen tomorrow, tomorrow will be the day that he will make a decision on commutation of sentences. These are men who quite likely are not innocent. Men who he feels -- and women, I should say, who he feels perhaps got an unfair trial or an unfair shake from the legal system. He feels it is not right to put anyone to death who the government is not 100 percent sure about.

And so there may be mass commutations of sentence from death to life in prison without parole. That is not likely to make the victims of those families very happy. We expect to hear from them on mass tomorrow -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, let's play with it a couple of questions here. First of all, the four who were pardoned today, the governor -- well, they were all at some point in the same station house in Chicago; a station house that became notorious. And why don't you fill in a few of those blanks.

FLOCK: Area two, police headquarters, commanded by a man named Jon Burge. There were 10 people on death row in all who had been allegedly tortured by Burge. Confessions tortured out of them. How do we know that? Well, the police told us. Internal police investigation found copious evidence that Burge commanded this unit that frequently tortured confessions out of suspects.

BROWN: And just one more piece of color, if you will on that. One of the men who was pardoned today, it is said while he was confessing was also denying -- literally denying that the confession was accurate.

FLOCK: The case of Aaron Patterson is amazing if you believe it. And there is some evidence, because beneath a bench in the station house there were scrawled the words in a paper clip "Aaron lied." "Police tried to suffocate me," and other words. Mixed messages perhaps from that station house.

BROWN: Well -- and again, tomorrow the governor is expected to announce exactly hat he's going to do. He sent letters to all the family members of the victims telling them what his plan is. And he'll make it public tomorrow and we'll see where it goes. Jeff, thank you. Thank you for your work all day today.

It's safe to say few people expected George Ryan would be the person to reopen the debate he and his party once helped settle. But he saw what he saw and he couldn't reconcile his belief in capital punishment with the way it was practiced in his state. You don't win elections in Illinois or many other states by opposing the death penalty. So what it seems we have here right or wrong is a man who saw what he believed was an injustice. Here is CNN's Beth Nissen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): By law in Illinois, the governor can independently decide whether death row inmates get lethal injects or life in prison without parole. (on camera): You have the power to change sentences from death to life.

GOV. GEORGE RYAN (R), ILLINOIS: Awesome power.

NISSEN: Do you plan to empty death row before you leave the governor's office?

RYAN: It would be an option that I'm going to consider, frankly. Just to commute all the sentences.

NISSEN (voice-over): Many believe that's exactly what the governor will do tomorrow. Ryan set the stage for such an action three years ago when he declared a moratorium on all executions in the state of Illinois.

RYAN: I can't support a system which in its administration has proven to be so fraught with error and has come so close to the ultimate nightmare: the state's taking of innocent life.

NISSEN: Ryan is deeply troubled by one set of statistics. Since Illinois reinstated the death penalty in 1977, 12 inmates have been executed. But 13 others have been freed, exonerated, or had their convictions reversed.

RYAN: How can you take the ultimate penalty and be only right half the time? That's pretty startling.

NISSEN: The governor's actions were startling to many who new this Republican as a long-time supporter of the death penalty.

RYAN: I watched James Cagney movies and they used to show James Cagney fighting going to the chair. But bad people paid the price and people who were really bad paid the ultimate price. I got elected governor and I became the executioner. I had to make the decision about who lived and who died. That's when I started to think about it.

NISSEN: As governor, Ryan did sign an execution order for Andrew Kokoralis (ph), a murderer prosecutors called monstrous.

RYAN: In my mind I was convinced that Andrew Kokoralis (ph) was guilty and that he had a fair trial. So we executed him.

NISSEN: But the anguish of deciding Kokoralis' (ph) fate was a turning point for the governer.

RYAN: It is an awesome responsibility that you can say that somebody can live or die. It is just an awesome responsibility. And I'm not sure that any one person ought to have that.

NISSEN: Whatever George Ryan does tomorrow will be one of his last acts as governor. He did not seek reelection and he leaves office on Monday. Beth Nissen, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: Our legal analyst Jeff Toobin is here tonight to talk a bit more about this. First of all, it is all -- I mean, anybody who has spent any time looking at the death penalty over the course of their lives, this is an extraordinary event that is happening in Illinois.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It is an incredible story. It is like an opera in a way. I mean, here is this politician who is charitably described as a hack by his admirers and he has seemed to have had a true crisis of conscience in office. He is just someone who is torn up by this issue and he has said no more -- no more executions while I'm the governor. And he may clear death row tomorrow afternoon.

BROWN: Is there anything unique or dramatically unique about the Illinois death penalty law that makes it more susceptible to abuse than any other states?

TOOBIN: Not really. In fact, many respects it is better. I mean, it is a system where everybody has lawyers and the standard of lawyering in Illinois, while not great, is certainly better than it is in Alabama or Mississippi, where a lot of these cases are really even worse in terms of the adequacy of representation. And so what is so chilling about his agony about the death penalty is that you have to think, if it is that bad in Illinois, it is probably just as bad if not worse elsewhere.

BROWN: Why?

TOOBIN: Because the system doesn't work very well. I mean, the system that is meant to guarantee that you are only going to execute people, you are absolutely sure that they're guilty, it's simply -- this legal system doesn't work that well. Guilty people -- innocent people, that is, they sometimes confess. Cops don't handle evidence properly or intentionally engage in misconduct. It happens elsewhere and, you know, it is a concern.

BROWN: The -- I'm trying to -- let me -- the governor has sent to the legislature -- a commission sent to the governor, which sent to the legislature a set of recommendations on how to clean up the death penalty, if you will. Did they go anywhere?

TOOBIN: Nowhere, zero. And, in fact, I think if the governor clears death row tomorrow, he will use that as his explanation. He's going to say, look, the legislature had a chance. We had this commission, very high powered commission, people like Scott Turrow (ph), the writer, were on it. And it was also -- it was not an abolitionist commission.

It wasn't people saying we want to abolish the death penalty. It was people saying if you want to have a death penalty, this is how to do it fairly. Legislature did nothing. Looks like Ryan tomorrow will say forget it.

BROWN: Anything in those recommendations that is particularly controversial for the... TOOBIN: Not controversial, but expensive. I mean, you know, more lawyers, more access to scientific evidence by the defense, more opportunity for -- more of a requirement for prosecutors and cops to tape interrogations, which is something that is very -- would stop a lot of these bad confession cases.

BROWN: Why would prosecutors, by the way, oppose that? You were a prosecutor. Why would you oppose having the -- I think it is the entirety of the interrogation, not simply the confession which is routinely videotaped so juries can see that. The entirety of the interrogation taped, why not?

TOOBIN: Because it is -- for one thing, jurors probably would rebel at how tough cops can be and how -- and how they mislead, how they harass, how they -- you know, they're tough. And it is not illegal to be tough, but it is often not pretty.

And also, I think it just would lessen the number of confessions you would get. And I think, you know, people want confessions because they want guilty people to go away.

BROWN: Do you think -- this is a terribly unfair question I'm going ask you, but you're my friend. So...

TOOBIN: Go ahead.

BROWN: Do you think what is happening in Illinois is a good thing?

TOOBIN: Yeah, I do. I mean, I think it forces people to confront the issue of whether innocent people are being executed. The interesting thing about the death penalty debate is that in the '60s and '70s, it was really about the morality of the death penalty, about whether a society should be doing that. For better or worse, this country has really kind of made up its mind that we're going to do that.

But now what is going on -- and it is mostly because DNA evidence has made these evidences -- made this so clear that innocent people have been executed or have been sentenced to death, it is not -- it -- we're being forced to confront just how important it is to get these things right.

BROWN: Jeffrey, thank you very much. Jeffrey Toobin.

Next we'll be joined by someone who I assure you does not think what is going on in the state of Illinois is a good thing. A prosecutor from the state, Kevin Lyons. He joins us after a break. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A bit more now on Illinois and the death penalty debate there. We focus so far on the victims of justice. The men who either didn't commit the crimes they were sentenced to death for or those who did but were victims of an unfair system, at least in the eyes of the governor and others in the state of Illinois. Not everyone to be sure.

But as we said at the top, there is another set of victims that deserves attention tonight, the families of those who were murdered. On this program they'll be represented by Kevin Lyons, who is a prosecutor who has handled death penalty cases, including some that may be commuted to life tomorrow. Good evening, sir. Thanks for joining us.

KEVIN LYONS, PEORIA COUNTY STATE'S ATTORNEY: Thanks for having me.

BROWN: Do you believe that on Illinois's death row tonight there are innocent people?

LYONS: I am not aware of a single innocent soul on death row in Illinois. Not one.

BROWN: That's not to play lawyer with you, OK. That's slightly different than saying you do not believe there are any. You don't know of any is what you're saying?

LYONS: Other than the used tea leaves. And there is nothing in any evidence that I'm aware of or any case law or any facts that I'm aware of, either from any of my colleagues or me to indicate that, no.

BROWN: OK. Do you believe there is anything fundamentally flawed about the system, the death penalty system in the state of Illinois?

LYONS: I do not. I do believe that the system of justice in Illinois is long and loud. It has gone through the district courts, the Supreme Court. Everybody has had not their day in court, they've had their years in court and been on death row for more than a decade. And it is shameful that the victims of this state, in fact, have to not fear the courts, not the defense lawyers, not the defendants, but they have to fear their very own governor, and that's wrong.

BROWN: Why do you say they have to fear their governor? He has looked at this system. He has reached a conclusion, albeit different than the one you've reached. But presumably he's done this in an honorable way. Aren't you being a little harsh?

LYONS: No. I don't think that when each person on death row -- and I might add, what about the people who pleaded guilty, for heavens' sakes -- but each person on death row who has been judged by a judge if they chose or by 12 people, and then appealed until every last appellate decision has been rendered, and then only this governor thinks that only he gets it.

This afternoon he said bad police, bad prosecutors, bad juries, bad judges. And then he ran out of people. He couldn't think of anybody more. But he is one notch beyond that, and that is disgust. Disgusting governor.

That only he gets it. No appellate court, no Supreme Court, no prosecutors, none of us get it but him. And I must do this before I leave office on Monday because nobody in the future will get it either except George Ryan. That's shameful.

BROWN: The Constitution in the state of Illinois gives him that power.

LYONS: It gives him the authority to review cases. And it is kind of ironic that we try people one case, one name, one face at a time and yet apparently a flaw in a case in Kankakee or a flaw in a case in Chicago is supposed to free a murderer in Peoria or free a murderer in Belleville (ph). I do know the difference between right and wrong. And I do know that when you have a flat tire on the car, you don't buy a new car.

And yet this governor believes that even though he cannot say -- because I might add I know it and he knows it -- that the people on death row from Peoria are not pretty much guilty, are not probably guilty, they are guilty beyond all doubt, and he knows that. And yet he believes that he is compelled, for reasons not related to the death penalty, that they must go free. And it says much more about George Ryan than it does about the death penalty.

BROWN: Final question. Tell me to the extent you can or willing to what your families -- the families of the victims that you represented in court have been saying to you the last couple of days.

LYONS: This afternoon the daughter of a husband -- of a parent -- parents who were murdered in 1987 said to me that this tells me what I knew, that George Ryan is an evil man. Because he doesn't care, she doesn't believe, about victims. And I would say that I tend to agree with that.

I believe that he is wiping his muddy shoes on the face of victims, using them as the door mat as he leaves his office in about 48 to 72 hours. It is not good. And in fact he believes -- or he purports to believe that he does this for the good of the order. But I tell you this, he knows the people on death row that he did not pardon today, he knows the balance of people on death row are guilty.

And for him to say that I reviewed them all, I looked at the evidence, I took them one case, one name, one face at a time, and I concluded that those sentences must be commuted is silliness. Only it has gone into the field of the absurd. He knows that. And the victims know it, too.

There are people who know about these cases more than the governor. And those are the people who live to be survivors of the people who were murdered from death row inmates.

BROWN: Mr. Lyons, you're clearly a terrific advocate of your position. We appreciate your time tonight a lot.

LYONS: Thanks for having me.

BROWN: Thank you, sir, very much. Kevin Lyons in Peoria, the state's attorney in Peoria, Illinois.

Later on NEWSNIGHT, the confrontation with North Korea seems to grow a bit worse by the day. Up next: New Jersey's plans to reform its child welfare system. But first it has to find the children it has lost. This is NEWSNIGHT around the world.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in terms of those little boys in Newark. Our ver next thought -- yours too, we suspect -- could be summed up with three words: how many others? The scary fact is of this terrible story is that we simply don't know how many others. The state hasn't been able to find all the kids that run at risk of abuse.

Today, the governor addressed that fact and called for reform. Not another blue ribbon panel, but actual reform. You'll hear from him in a moment. First, the day's developments from CNN's Jamie Colby.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COLBY (voice-over): New Jersey's division of Youth and Family Services says it wants to protect kids, if only it could find them. The discovery last weekend of two brothers locked in a basement badly malnourished and a third dead led human services commissioner Gwen Harris to call for a media tracking of 280 kids alleged to have been abused whose whereabouts were unknown.

GWENDOLYN HARRIS, COMMISSIONER: Since the time of this order, the number has now been reduced to 110. We found 170 of those children, saw them within the last 48 hours.

COLBY: The division had lost track of the three Williams brothers.

HARRIS: We all know by now that this Williams family had their case closed with an outstanding allegation of abuse and neglect, and the caseworker had not visibly seen the child in over a year. By any standard, this never, ever should have happened.

COLBY: But Harris' report to the governor reveals of 17 child fatalities last year due to abuse or neglect, six were open DYFS cases. Still, Harris insists new measures will find kids and keep them safe, particularly modernized tracking technology, appropriate case loads for caseworkers, a new independent review panel and no more case closures at the district level.

HARRIS: I have instituted a directive that the district office no longer has the authority to close that case. They can only recommend that closure and submit their recommendation to the division director.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLBY: That alone may have saved Faheem Williams and spares his brothers months of unimaginable torture. Their caseworker closed their case the day after visiting the house, but not actually seeing the kids -- Aaron. BROWN: New Jersey, like just about every other state in the country right now, can't pay its bills. So where does the money come from for all of this?

COLBY: Well, there are 47,000 kids in the system needing services. Just in the last 48 hours going out and finding the 280, which they ended up not finding them all. A lot of that money was probably used up just in evaluating this case and trying to locate them.

They're calling for new computers, new systems, new supervisors. It is a pretty ambitious plan, and no one is saying where the money will come from.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you. Jamie Colby.

COLBY: Thank you.

BROWN: We talked a lot this week about accountability of the boys' caretaker, if you dare call her that. About their mother, their caseworker, the supervisor at the child welfare agency. But the accountability also extends to the governor of the state. If this system is going to get fixed, the governor will have to drive the reform.

We spoke with Governor Jim McGreevey of New Jersey about his reform plan earlier tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Governor, why did it take tragedy of this magnitude for you to talk about the reforms that you talked about today? Surely, for example, the lack of updated computer technology that most states already put into effect, you knew about that. Why is it always the tragedy that causes the reform?

GOV. JAMES MCGREEVEY (D), NEW JERSEY: Well, actually what we did is we put in $23 million in the last budget year to bolster DYFS, and put the authorization for the funding in the last budget year. So we're moving forward. And during the entirety of my professional life, I've been an advocate for DYFS and for bringing about the right changes. Despite having a Herculean budget deficit of $6 billion, we actually increased DYFS funding.

But this isn't just about the money. This is about changing managerial practices, having heightened degree of accountability, and I think we have begun that process to produce those basic changes.

BROWN: When you talk about heightened accountability, does that extend beyond the case worker and the case worker's supervisors level?

MCGREEVEY: Yes. Basically if I can, Aaron, what we have done in the instant cases, DYFS has taken custody of the two boys. We've looked at all outstanding circumstances where there are allegations of brutality and abuse and we haven't discovered or haven't found the children. What we're doing now is literally tracking down all of those instances where there are outstanding allegations but yet we haven't identified the children.

And what we're going to be doing in terms of the Newark office, we have just sent the chief of staff, the former chief of staff of the Department of Human Services to the Newark office to provide hands-on jurisdiction and managerial control.

But what we need to understand for DYFS and the protection of our children is ultimately it's a case worker's decision. And that case worker needs to have from our perspective another set of eyes and ears to determine whether or not they're making the right decision. So what we're going to do is to use case practice specialists, individuals with greater experience, God willing, greater wisdom, to oversee the decision of the case worker and the supervisor to make sure that we're making the right decision.

BROWN: If things haven't changed since earlier today, you've got 110 kids out there still you haven't been able to locate. What do you know about those children? Anything at all?

MCGREEVEY: Well, a great majority of the children we're tracking down we have received preliminary information from families. In certain cases, they're older children, but we're tracking them down, we're working with the court system, we're working with the police departments, and we will continue to track down all of those children in these intervening weeks.

And we have also made good progress to date working with police systems, but sometimes we also have situations where children may have been moved out of state, but we're working with our police departments.

But the point here in all of this is we can't lose focus. This has to be about the children, about our kids. And what I say to the DYFS workers, the point being, if I can just emphasize this one point, Aaron, is that a case worker, there was a case of brutality and there was a missing child in back in October of '01. In February of '02, that case worker closed the file.

The point is, at the end of the day, it is not just about money. It has to be about accountability. That case worker made a very bad decision. And what we have to do is to bring all the interested parties to the table, but also have another set of eyes and ears to make sure that case workers are making the right decision to protect the interests of that child.

BROWN: Governor, I hope we never have to have this conversation again. I think we both do.

MCGREEVEY: That makes two of us.

BROWN: Thank you, sir, very much.

MCGREEVEY: Thanks, Aaron.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Jim McGreevey, the governor of New Jersey.

Tonight still to come on NEWSNIGHT, a surprising turn of events in the case of the so-called Buffalo Six. And talks continue in an effort to diffuse the growing confrontation with North Korea, which grew a little bit more today.

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: New terror warning to tell you about tonight. The State Department says it has received information that a terrorist group may be planning an attack against Americans on the Tanzanian island of Zanzibar. Americans are being told to be cautious. The potential targets include restaurants, clubs and hotels.

Soon after they were arrested, we took to calling them the Buffalo Six. Six Americans of Yemeni descent living in Western New York and charged as a terror cell that was supporting al Qaeda. The scene that's beginning today, the name the Buffalo Six has clearly outlived its usefulness. A split has opened wide among the six; one of them pleading guilty and revealing for the first time that Osama bin Laden asked him and the other recruits to do. Here is CNN's Susan Candiotti.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In pleading guilty, gas station owner Faysal Galab reveals new details about what Osama bin Laden told the group of would-be terrorists at an al Qaeda training camp, just a few months before the September 11 attacks.

WILLIAM HOCHUL, ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY: He indicates that bin Laden said at an appearance at the camp that 50 men were in a position to attack America.

CANDIOTTI: But after coming home to the U.S., the six men didn't tell anyone what happened, claiming they were too afraid. The plea agreement also says co-defendant Saheem Alwan had a private meeting with bin Laden in which bin Laden asked whether anyone in America is willing to die for the cause. The plea followed what are described as extensive negotiations with the government.

MICHAEL BATTLE, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY: By entering this plea of guilty, the defendant, Faysal Galab, has admitted that he is a citizen of the United States, that he knowingly and willfully contributed funds and/or services for the benefit of a specially designated terrorist, notably Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda.

CANDIOTTI: The government has never said it ever had any evidence the men were planning an attack in the U.S. But in a bail hearing last month, a prosecutor told the court it might conclude the Buffalo Six was a sleeper cell, waiting to carry out some future orders.

In court, Galab told a trial judge he agreed with everything in the plea agreement.

JOSEPH LATONA, GALAB'S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He has not admitted being a member of al Qaeda. He has not admitted planning or preparing or agreeing to engage in any act of terrorism whatsoever.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI: But he did admit to breaking the law, and in return for pleading to lesser charges, Galab now faces a maximum of seven to 10 years in prison instead of a maximum 15 to 20. Of course, he must cooperate and testify against his five friends, if it comes to that -- Aaron.

BROWN: The charges that the other five face are what then?

CANDIOTTI: Providing material support to a foreign terrorist organization. There seems to be a distinction without much of a difference there with the exception of the number of years that they face a penalty for. So in this case, of course, you see what I explained the maximum was, the difference between one charge and the other. But other than that, there doesn't appear to be much of a difference.

CANDIOTTI: Susan, thank you very much.

Susan Candiotti on the buffalo six or perhaps now the buffalo five.

BROWN; On to the crisis with North Korea which comes to us tonight by way of Santa Fe, New Mexico. North Korean diplomats have been meeting with New Mexico's Governor, Bill Richardson. governor Richardson who did this sort of thing in an official capacity during the Clinton administration, seems to be doing it again unofficially now for President Bush. And he remembers the language of diplomacy. The governor today called to talks positive, frank and candid which says very little. He did say they'll be trying again tomorrow. And given the developments of today, there does seem to be plenty to talk about.

For us tonight here is CNN's Andrea Koppel.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDREA KOPPEL, STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Only hours after North Korea blasted the United States anew and threatened war, Secretary of State Powell fired back and condemned North Korea's decision to withdraw from the nuclear nonproliferation treaty.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We hope that the North Korean leadership will realize in folly of its actions. Will realize the international community and the United States will not be intimidated and we'll continue to work for a peaceful solution.

KOPPEL: But Powell and the head of the U.N.'s nuclear watchdog agency warned Pyongyang if it doesn't reverse course soon, the next step will be the U.N. Security Council. POWELL: This kind of disrespect for such an agreement cannot go undealt with.

PAK GIL YON, N. KOREAN AMB. TO U.N.: What we're talking about this matter of weeks.

KOPPEL: Earlier in the day, North Korea's ambassador to the U.N. had a warning of his own.

PAK: Any economic sanctions can be taken by the Security Council of the United Nations against is a PPRK is a declaration of war.

KOPPEL: But the Bush White House still refused this a crisis.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today's announcement is a serious concern to North Korea's neighbors and to the entire international community.

KOPPEL: All this while in New Mexico, North Korean diplomats held a second day of private talks with Governor Bill Richardson.

GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D), NEW MEXICO: The talks have been, in a very good atmosphere. Talks have been positive, frank and candid too.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL: While emphasizing that Governor Richardson is not an official envoy or emissary of this administration, Secretary of State Powell did say he had spoken to Richardson several times since the talks began last night. And is expected to speak with him again tomorrow, Aaron, after the talks end, sometime after they pick up again at 10:30 in the morning. In addition, the White House says that President Bush called China's president Jiang Zemin, a close trading partner of North Korea in the hopes of trying to end this nuclear standoff -- Aaron.

BROWN: Just to be clear. Governor Richardson is not freelancing on this. He's obviously -- the North Koreans wouldn't have been there if the State Department hadn't allowed them to travel there. Do we know what message the State Department would like delivered to the North Koreans by Governor Richardson?

KOPPEL: You're absolutely right. I think publicly the State Department would certainly not say that Governor Richardson is freelancing, but there are others out there that would have preferred the North Koreans had selected. Nevertheless, I'm told by administration sources that Secretary Powell did ask Richardson to let the North Koreans know that if they freeze their nuclear weapons program, that the U.S. Would be willing to put in righting that security agreement that the North has been seeking for the U.S. not to attack the North.

BROWN: Andrea, thank you very much. Andrea Koppel at the State Department.

A little more on North Korea after the break. We'll talk with Wendy Sherman who advised the Clinton administration on how to deal with North Korea.

A break first this a NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: North Korea again for a few minutes. It seems to us at least this crisis developed at the speed of light.

Wendy Sherman worked at the North Korea problem for the Clinton administration. She joins us tonight to talk about it.

Welcome to the program again.

If we, the United States, give the North Koreans this written assurance we won't attack them, have they won?

WENDY SHERMAN, FORMER CLINTON ADVISER: Well, I don't think they've won, Aaron. In fact, the kind of security assurance they're looking for was negotiated between Secretary Madeleine Albright and Vice Marshall Cho, the envoy that Kim Jong Il sent to the United States to meet with president Clinton in 2000. And there was a giant communique in that October that gave those kind of no hostile intent by either party. So I don't think we have won. I think we have reaffirmed something that is absolutely core to North Korea and that is that we won't be a threat to them.

BROWN: What is it -- I apologize for what I'm sure is a really dumb question, but that what is this all about in the end?

SHERMAN: In the end, for North Korea, this is about regime survival. Being able to continue to exist and be the way they are. It is not a place any of us would really enjoy living in in the very least. For the United States and for the world it really does have to be about nuclear weapons. The Clinton administration worked very hard to negotiate a missile agreement and the reason we did that is because missiles carry nuclear weapons. Missiles in and of themselves are not great conventional weapons you want to have around but it is missiles carrying nuclear weapons that is a risk to the entire world and it is very serious.

BROWN: And the North -- lets go back to the North Korean mind set here. You said it is about to them their regime survival. Who was threatening in their view in their world outlook, who was threatening their regime?

SHERMAN: We are threatening their regime. When former Secretary of Defense Bill Perry who did a policy review for President Clinton, Secretary Albright and I went to North Korea in may of 1999, we were bombing Yugoslavia at the time and in every meeting, every North Korean said to us, we will not be Yugoslavia.

And I'm sure when Assistant Secretary James Kelly for the Bush administration went to Pyongyang a few months ago and that now famous meeting, they were saying to him, we will not be Iraq. So they believe they need weapons of mass destruction to be a deterrent against us. BROWN: The Chinese Cannot be too terribly thrilled to have another country in their neighborhood with nuclear weapons. Why aren't they seemingly pushing harder in North Korea?

SHERMAN: I think China is pushing on North Korea. They do not and have never wanted a nuclear peninsula. Nor do they want an arms race on the peninsula because there are other powers in the region that may go in the same direction this and be with a great threat to China.

But China has a very complicated relationship with North Korea, and they're probably doing this pretty gingerly because they have discovered what I think we all have, which is if you push North Korea very, very hard, even though you would think they would cave they tend to escalate and go in the other direction. So you to be careful. And China probably likes having North Korea in the region, but it certainly does not want it to be a nuclear power.

BROWN: Does the government of North Korea listen to anyone?

SHERMAN: Well, when we talk about the government of North Korea, we're principally talking about one person and that's Kim Jong Il who really inherited the throne in many ways from his father, Kim Il Sung when he died. And it really in many ways is a country, but it is also a cult.

It is in many ways a Confucion (ph) society where one person rules all, when we were coming to the end of the administration and Kim Jong Il wanted President Clinton to come to Pyongyang, it is because he believes only leaders can make decisions. He doesn't understand a Congress, a press, a public being part of that decision. He's the one who does it.

BROWN: Half a minute. Do you think this will end soon and well?

SHERMAN: I hope for the world it ends soon and well. That's the optimist in me. The pessimist in me thinks if we're not very careful, if we don't tell North Korea now, we're ready for talks but here's where and when we're ready to have them, we could find ourselves going over the edge of the cliff and it will be very catastrophic.

BROWN: Miss Sherman, thank you very much.

SHERMAN: You're welcome.

BROWN: Thanks for joining us. We'll talk to you again, I hope. Wendy Sherman who dealt with North Korea during the Clinton years.

A couple more stories from "Around the World: tonight. Staring with the ricin story. Sources telling CNN that one of the men being detained by British authorities did train in Afghanistan with al Qaeda. Also today, the FBI advised state and local authorities to study up on ricin, how the poison may be use and what the symptoms of the poisoning are.

From Paris, a follow-up on the airport baggage handler caught last month with a car load of guns, explosives and airline uniforms. Today police said he was the victim of a setup that's all they said. So we don't know who set the man up or who the weapons really belonged to.

Next on NEWSNIGHT, is it gold or is it ground beef? The $41 hamburger when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, now finally from us tonight and for the week, an exciting development. Something the world has been breathlessly waiting for a long time. Is as of today no longer a far fetched fantasy, but a reality. Not the cloned baby. Nothing as trivial as that.

But a mile from where I'm sitting inside a 134-year-old restaurant that has a life size statue of an Angus steer on is awning you can at lest sit yourself down and order the two-fisted eater's dream come true, the great American dish in its ultimate form, the red meat holy grail, a $41 hamburger.

We will show you this heart stopping thing. But not right away because we don't want you to rush away in a crazed hunger. We want you to watch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): Here's where you go to get this modern wonder of the world made from the fabled beef cattle of Kobe, Japan. Cattle who spend their days being massaged with rice wine, drinking the best cold beer, pampered and petted and coddled and cooed at, who live quite frankly a whole lot better than most of us here at NEWSNIGHT. With the result that when the pampering is over, they produce.

They produce something that needs not a reporter, but a Shakespeare to properly describe. This is it, my friends. At $41, nearly twice as expensive as its nearest competitor. Shirley Debard (ph) would have been moved to poetry.

What sits in marbled splendor upon a burnished plate fit the appetite of king or queen or emperor to state. The Michelangelo's David of meat consists of 20 ounces of Kobe's best with exotic mushrooms and homemade sauces and champagne laced stone ground mustard and a lot of garnishes honestly I can't pronounce.

Tell you what, I've seen men walk on the moon, seen a presidency decided by pregnant chads, seen cell phones the size of sugar cubes, but I never thought I would live to see this. I'm stunned. And starved.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: OK. Now, see for $41 you can get one hamburger. But we cannot feed the staff that way. But with $41 you can get 70 of these babies and we'll feed the whole crew. And you if you come by. Tonight or on Monday. We'll see you then have a great weekend from all of us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Interview With Kevin Lyons; Is North Korea Using Nukes As U.S. Attack Deterrent>


Aired January 11, 2003 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: And good evening again, everyone. Much of the program tonight literally centers around life and death. Today, the governor of Illinois pardoned four people who had been on death row. All had confessed to murders. And, according to the governor, there is plenty of reason to believe all were tortured into confessing.
Tomorrow, the governor may commute to life the sentences of well over 100 other people on death row, because the governor came to believe the death penalty system in the state of Illinois was broken, a failure. There are very likely going to be a lot of unhappy people in Illinois tomorrow. But if the governor is right, if the Illinois system for deciding who should be put to death and who should live is a failed system, then a word or two is in order about those it has failed. And it's not just the people on death row.

The families of the victims have been failed by this system as well. They put their faith in the system. They expected that everyone from the cop on the beat on up would do the job right and fairly, and that once the bad guy was charged and convicted and sentenced, they could at least find some peace in that. And yet over the past year, the families have had to relive their personal nightmares over and over again, telling their stories to a commission looking into the cases, wondering what might become of the person they believe killed their loved one and most likely did.

This was awful to watch and must have been a thousand times worse to have lived through. And while we also believe the governor has taken a principled and courageous stand, the sort of thing few politicians anywhere anytime are willing to do, our hearts go out to the victims' families tonight for the pain that for them must seem unending.

That's our lead story tonight, what is going on in Illinois. Jeff Flock has been working it for a while now. Jeff, a headline from you.

JEFF FLOCK, CNN CHICAGO BUREAU CHIEF: Aaron, dramatic developments here in Chicago tonight. Four pardons, likely four more dramatic developments tomorrow. Perhaps commutations of sentences for men who may well not be innocent.

BROWN: Jeff, back you to at the top tonight. Now to a development in the war on terror involving the group called the Buffalo Six. Susan Candiotti has worked that now for months. Susan, a headline please. SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron. One of the Buffalo Six says, OK, I did it. I knew it was wrong. But I did go to an al Qaeda training camp. I bought a uniform. I learned how to use explosives. And he reveals for first time more details about what Osama bin Laden told the group just a few months before the September 11 attacks.

BROWN: Susan, thank you. On to New Jersey and the ongoing look at three children lost in the child welfare system there. And other kids we may not know about. Jamie Colby is with us tonight. Jamie, a headline from you.

JAMIE COLBY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There are sweeping new child welfare rules meant to protect New Jersey kids. So why are 110 still missing -- Aaron.

BROWN: Thank you, Jamie. And to North Korea and the tensions that will not go away, Andrea Koppel from the State Department tonight. Andrea, the headline from you.

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, today North Korea threatened World War III if more economic sanctions are levied against it. But here in Washington, Secretary of State Colin Powell and the head of the IAEA signaled that barring a breakthrough, that's exactly where they're headed.

BROWN: Andrea, thank you. Back to all of you shortly. Also coming up tonight, we'll talk with an Illinois prosecutor who is outraged by what the governor in the state is doing. Someone who says the three men he prosecuted deserve to be on death row and should stay there.

New Jersey's Governor Jim McGreevey on the storm of controversy over those three little boys, what the state plans to do to prevent more tragedies. You'll hear from him tonight as well.

And $41 never tasted so good. We pay homage tonight to the world's most expensive -- man that looks good -- hamburger. But that's dessert.

We begin tonight with the governor and the death penalty. With what the governor of the state of Illinois did today and what he's expected to do tomorrow, after grappling for three years with how his state administers the ultimate punishment. Three years ago he wrote the first chapter in this story. This weekend he'll write the latest. Not the last of that, we're fairly sure.

As you'll see tonight, the debate over crime and punishment and life and death will not be settled by pardons today or whatever comes to pass tomorrow. We begin with Jeff Flock, who joins us from Chicago. Jeff, good evening.

FLOCK: Indeed, I think you're absolutely right, Aaron. This is only the beginning in some sense, even though George Ryan's term ends on Monday. What he did today as a sort of last stroke was pardon four men on death row, sentenced to death. One man who had been there for 19 years. Men he says were wrongly convicted. He truly believes they're innocent.

As to what will happen tomorrow, tomorrow will be the day that he will make a decision on commutation of sentences. These are men who quite likely are not innocent. Men who he feels -- and women, I should say, who he feels perhaps got an unfair trial or an unfair shake from the legal system. He feels it is not right to put anyone to death who the government is not 100 percent sure about.

And so there may be mass commutations of sentence from death to life in prison without parole. That is not likely to make the victims of those families very happy. We expect to hear from them on mass tomorrow -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, let's play with it a couple of questions here. First of all, the four who were pardoned today, the governor -- well, they were all at some point in the same station house in Chicago; a station house that became notorious. And why don't you fill in a few of those blanks.

FLOCK: Area two, police headquarters, commanded by a man named Jon Burge. There were 10 people on death row in all who had been allegedly tortured by Burge. Confessions tortured out of them. How do we know that? Well, the police told us. Internal police investigation found copious evidence that Burge commanded this unit that frequently tortured confessions out of suspects.

BROWN: And just one more piece of color, if you will on that. One of the men who was pardoned today, it is said while he was confessing was also denying -- literally denying that the confession was accurate.

FLOCK: The case of Aaron Patterson is amazing if you believe it. And there is some evidence, because beneath a bench in the station house there were scrawled the words in a paper clip "Aaron lied." "Police tried to suffocate me," and other words. Mixed messages perhaps from that station house.

BROWN: Well -- and again, tomorrow the governor is expected to announce exactly hat he's going to do. He sent letters to all the family members of the victims telling them what his plan is. And he'll make it public tomorrow and we'll see where it goes. Jeff, thank you. Thank you for your work all day today.

It's safe to say few people expected George Ryan would be the person to reopen the debate he and his party once helped settle. But he saw what he saw and he couldn't reconcile his belief in capital punishment with the way it was practiced in his state. You don't win elections in Illinois or many other states by opposing the death penalty. So what it seems we have here right or wrong is a man who saw what he believed was an injustice. Here is CNN's Beth Nissen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): By law in Illinois, the governor can independently decide whether death row inmates get lethal injects or life in prison without parole. (on camera): You have the power to change sentences from death to life.

GOV. GEORGE RYAN (R), ILLINOIS: Awesome power.

NISSEN: Do you plan to empty death row before you leave the governor's office?

RYAN: It would be an option that I'm going to consider, frankly. Just to commute all the sentences.

NISSEN (voice-over): Many believe that's exactly what the governor will do tomorrow. Ryan set the stage for such an action three years ago when he declared a moratorium on all executions in the state of Illinois.

RYAN: I can't support a system which in its administration has proven to be so fraught with error and has come so close to the ultimate nightmare: the state's taking of innocent life.

NISSEN: Ryan is deeply troubled by one set of statistics. Since Illinois reinstated the death penalty in 1977, 12 inmates have been executed. But 13 others have been freed, exonerated, or had their convictions reversed.

RYAN: How can you take the ultimate penalty and be only right half the time? That's pretty startling.

NISSEN: The governor's actions were startling to many who new this Republican as a long-time supporter of the death penalty.

RYAN: I watched James Cagney movies and they used to show James Cagney fighting going to the chair. But bad people paid the price and people who were really bad paid the ultimate price. I got elected governor and I became the executioner. I had to make the decision about who lived and who died. That's when I started to think about it.

NISSEN: As governor, Ryan did sign an execution order for Andrew Kokoralis (ph), a murderer prosecutors called monstrous.

RYAN: In my mind I was convinced that Andrew Kokoralis (ph) was guilty and that he had a fair trial. So we executed him.

NISSEN: But the anguish of deciding Kokoralis' (ph) fate was a turning point for the governer.

RYAN: It is an awesome responsibility that you can say that somebody can live or die. It is just an awesome responsibility. And I'm not sure that any one person ought to have that.

NISSEN: Whatever George Ryan does tomorrow will be one of his last acts as governor. He did not seek reelection and he leaves office on Monday. Beth Nissen, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: Our legal analyst Jeff Toobin is here tonight to talk a bit more about this. First of all, it is all -- I mean, anybody who has spent any time looking at the death penalty over the course of their lives, this is an extraordinary event that is happening in Illinois.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It is an incredible story. It is like an opera in a way. I mean, here is this politician who is charitably described as a hack by his admirers and he has seemed to have had a true crisis of conscience in office. He is just someone who is torn up by this issue and he has said no more -- no more executions while I'm the governor. And he may clear death row tomorrow afternoon.

BROWN: Is there anything unique or dramatically unique about the Illinois death penalty law that makes it more susceptible to abuse than any other states?

TOOBIN: Not really. In fact, many respects it is better. I mean, it is a system where everybody has lawyers and the standard of lawyering in Illinois, while not great, is certainly better than it is in Alabama or Mississippi, where a lot of these cases are really even worse in terms of the adequacy of representation. And so what is so chilling about his agony about the death penalty is that you have to think, if it is that bad in Illinois, it is probably just as bad if not worse elsewhere.

BROWN: Why?

TOOBIN: Because the system doesn't work very well. I mean, the system that is meant to guarantee that you are only going to execute people, you are absolutely sure that they're guilty, it's simply -- this legal system doesn't work that well. Guilty people -- innocent people, that is, they sometimes confess. Cops don't handle evidence properly or intentionally engage in misconduct. It happens elsewhere and, you know, it is a concern.

BROWN: The -- I'm trying to -- let me -- the governor has sent to the legislature -- a commission sent to the governor, which sent to the legislature a set of recommendations on how to clean up the death penalty, if you will. Did they go anywhere?

TOOBIN: Nowhere, zero. And, in fact, I think if the governor clears death row tomorrow, he will use that as his explanation. He's going to say, look, the legislature had a chance. We had this commission, very high powered commission, people like Scott Turrow (ph), the writer, were on it. And it was also -- it was not an abolitionist commission.

It wasn't people saying we want to abolish the death penalty. It was people saying if you want to have a death penalty, this is how to do it fairly. Legislature did nothing. Looks like Ryan tomorrow will say forget it.

BROWN: Anything in those recommendations that is particularly controversial for the... TOOBIN: Not controversial, but expensive. I mean, you know, more lawyers, more access to scientific evidence by the defense, more opportunity for -- more of a requirement for prosecutors and cops to tape interrogations, which is something that is very -- would stop a lot of these bad confession cases.

BROWN: Why would prosecutors, by the way, oppose that? You were a prosecutor. Why would you oppose having the -- I think it is the entirety of the interrogation, not simply the confession which is routinely videotaped so juries can see that. The entirety of the interrogation taped, why not?

TOOBIN: Because it is -- for one thing, jurors probably would rebel at how tough cops can be and how -- and how they mislead, how they harass, how they -- you know, they're tough. And it is not illegal to be tough, but it is often not pretty.

And also, I think it just would lessen the number of confessions you would get. And I think, you know, people want confessions because they want guilty people to go away.

BROWN: Do you think -- this is a terribly unfair question I'm going ask you, but you're my friend. So...

TOOBIN: Go ahead.

BROWN: Do you think what is happening in Illinois is a good thing?

TOOBIN: Yeah, I do. I mean, I think it forces people to confront the issue of whether innocent people are being executed. The interesting thing about the death penalty debate is that in the '60s and '70s, it was really about the morality of the death penalty, about whether a society should be doing that. For better or worse, this country has really kind of made up its mind that we're going to do that.

But now what is going on -- and it is mostly because DNA evidence has made these evidences -- made this so clear that innocent people have been executed or have been sentenced to death, it is not -- it -- we're being forced to confront just how important it is to get these things right.

BROWN: Jeffrey, thank you very much. Jeffrey Toobin.

Next we'll be joined by someone who I assure you does not think what is going on in the state of Illinois is a good thing. A prosecutor from the state, Kevin Lyons. He joins us after a break. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A bit more now on Illinois and the death penalty debate there. We focus so far on the victims of justice. The men who either didn't commit the crimes they were sentenced to death for or those who did but were victims of an unfair system, at least in the eyes of the governor and others in the state of Illinois. Not everyone to be sure.

But as we said at the top, there is another set of victims that deserves attention tonight, the families of those who were murdered. On this program they'll be represented by Kevin Lyons, who is a prosecutor who has handled death penalty cases, including some that may be commuted to life tomorrow. Good evening, sir. Thanks for joining us.

KEVIN LYONS, PEORIA COUNTY STATE'S ATTORNEY: Thanks for having me.

BROWN: Do you believe that on Illinois's death row tonight there are innocent people?

LYONS: I am not aware of a single innocent soul on death row in Illinois. Not one.

BROWN: That's not to play lawyer with you, OK. That's slightly different than saying you do not believe there are any. You don't know of any is what you're saying?

LYONS: Other than the used tea leaves. And there is nothing in any evidence that I'm aware of or any case law or any facts that I'm aware of, either from any of my colleagues or me to indicate that, no.

BROWN: OK. Do you believe there is anything fundamentally flawed about the system, the death penalty system in the state of Illinois?

LYONS: I do not. I do believe that the system of justice in Illinois is long and loud. It has gone through the district courts, the Supreme Court. Everybody has had not their day in court, they've had their years in court and been on death row for more than a decade. And it is shameful that the victims of this state, in fact, have to not fear the courts, not the defense lawyers, not the defendants, but they have to fear their very own governor, and that's wrong.

BROWN: Why do you say they have to fear their governor? He has looked at this system. He has reached a conclusion, albeit different than the one you've reached. But presumably he's done this in an honorable way. Aren't you being a little harsh?

LYONS: No. I don't think that when each person on death row -- and I might add, what about the people who pleaded guilty, for heavens' sakes -- but each person on death row who has been judged by a judge if they chose or by 12 people, and then appealed until every last appellate decision has been rendered, and then only this governor thinks that only he gets it.

This afternoon he said bad police, bad prosecutors, bad juries, bad judges. And then he ran out of people. He couldn't think of anybody more. But he is one notch beyond that, and that is disgust. Disgusting governor.

That only he gets it. No appellate court, no Supreme Court, no prosecutors, none of us get it but him. And I must do this before I leave office on Monday because nobody in the future will get it either except George Ryan. That's shameful.

BROWN: The Constitution in the state of Illinois gives him that power.

LYONS: It gives him the authority to review cases. And it is kind of ironic that we try people one case, one name, one face at a time and yet apparently a flaw in a case in Kankakee or a flaw in a case in Chicago is supposed to free a murderer in Peoria or free a murderer in Belleville (ph). I do know the difference between right and wrong. And I do know that when you have a flat tire on the car, you don't buy a new car.

And yet this governor believes that even though he cannot say -- because I might add I know it and he knows it -- that the people on death row from Peoria are not pretty much guilty, are not probably guilty, they are guilty beyond all doubt, and he knows that. And yet he believes that he is compelled, for reasons not related to the death penalty, that they must go free. And it says much more about George Ryan than it does about the death penalty.

BROWN: Final question. Tell me to the extent you can or willing to what your families -- the families of the victims that you represented in court have been saying to you the last couple of days.

LYONS: This afternoon the daughter of a husband -- of a parent -- parents who were murdered in 1987 said to me that this tells me what I knew, that George Ryan is an evil man. Because he doesn't care, she doesn't believe, about victims. And I would say that I tend to agree with that.

I believe that he is wiping his muddy shoes on the face of victims, using them as the door mat as he leaves his office in about 48 to 72 hours. It is not good. And in fact he believes -- or he purports to believe that he does this for the good of the order. But I tell you this, he knows the people on death row that he did not pardon today, he knows the balance of people on death row are guilty.

And for him to say that I reviewed them all, I looked at the evidence, I took them one case, one name, one face at a time, and I concluded that those sentences must be commuted is silliness. Only it has gone into the field of the absurd. He knows that. And the victims know it, too.

There are people who know about these cases more than the governor. And those are the people who live to be survivors of the people who were murdered from death row inmates.

BROWN: Mr. Lyons, you're clearly a terrific advocate of your position. We appreciate your time tonight a lot.

LYONS: Thanks for having me.

BROWN: Thank you, sir, very much. Kevin Lyons in Peoria, the state's attorney in Peoria, Illinois.

Later on NEWSNIGHT, the confrontation with North Korea seems to grow a bit worse by the day. Up next: New Jersey's plans to reform its child welfare system. But first it has to find the children it has lost. This is NEWSNIGHT around the world.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in terms of those little boys in Newark. Our ver next thought -- yours too, we suspect -- could be summed up with three words: how many others? The scary fact is of this terrible story is that we simply don't know how many others. The state hasn't been able to find all the kids that run at risk of abuse.

Today, the governor addressed that fact and called for reform. Not another blue ribbon panel, but actual reform. You'll hear from him in a moment. First, the day's developments from CNN's Jamie Colby.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COLBY (voice-over): New Jersey's division of Youth and Family Services says it wants to protect kids, if only it could find them. The discovery last weekend of two brothers locked in a basement badly malnourished and a third dead led human services commissioner Gwen Harris to call for a media tracking of 280 kids alleged to have been abused whose whereabouts were unknown.

GWENDOLYN HARRIS, COMMISSIONER: Since the time of this order, the number has now been reduced to 110. We found 170 of those children, saw them within the last 48 hours.

COLBY: The division had lost track of the three Williams brothers.

HARRIS: We all know by now that this Williams family had their case closed with an outstanding allegation of abuse and neglect, and the caseworker had not visibly seen the child in over a year. By any standard, this never, ever should have happened.

COLBY: But Harris' report to the governor reveals of 17 child fatalities last year due to abuse or neglect, six were open DYFS cases. Still, Harris insists new measures will find kids and keep them safe, particularly modernized tracking technology, appropriate case loads for caseworkers, a new independent review panel and no more case closures at the district level.

HARRIS: I have instituted a directive that the district office no longer has the authority to close that case. They can only recommend that closure and submit their recommendation to the division director.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLBY: That alone may have saved Faheem Williams and spares his brothers months of unimaginable torture. Their caseworker closed their case the day after visiting the house, but not actually seeing the kids -- Aaron. BROWN: New Jersey, like just about every other state in the country right now, can't pay its bills. So where does the money come from for all of this?

COLBY: Well, there are 47,000 kids in the system needing services. Just in the last 48 hours going out and finding the 280, which they ended up not finding them all. A lot of that money was probably used up just in evaluating this case and trying to locate them.

They're calling for new computers, new systems, new supervisors. It is a pretty ambitious plan, and no one is saying where the money will come from.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you. Jamie Colby.

COLBY: Thank you.

BROWN: We talked a lot this week about accountability of the boys' caretaker, if you dare call her that. About their mother, their caseworker, the supervisor at the child welfare agency. But the accountability also extends to the governor of the state. If this system is going to get fixed, the governor will have to drive the reform.

We spoke with Governor Jim McGreevey of New Jersey about his reform plan earlier tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Governor, why did it take tragedy of this magnitude for you to talk about the reforms that you talked about today? Surely, for example, the lack of updated computer technology that most states already put into effect, you knew about that. Why is it always the tragedy that causes the reform?

GOV. JAMES MCGREEVEY (D), NEW JERSEY: Well, actually what we did is we put in $23 million in the last budget year to bolster DYFS, and put the authorization for the funding in the last budget year. So we're moving forward. And during the entirety of my professional life, I've been an advocate for DYFS and for bringing about the right changes. Despite having a Herculean budget deficit of $6 billion, we actually increased DYFS funding.

But this isn't just about the money. This is about changing managerial practices, having heightened degree of accountability, and I think we have begun that process to produce those basic changes.

BROWN: When you talk about heightened accountability, does that extend beyond the case worker and the case worker's supervisors level?

MCGREEVEY: Yes. Basically if I can, Aaron, what we have done in the instant cases, DYFS has taken custody of the two boys. We've looked at all outstanding circumstances where there are allegations of brutality and abuse and we haven't discovered or haven't found the children. What we're doing now is literally tracking down all of those instances where there are outstanding allegations but yet we haven't identified the children.

And what we're going to be doing in terms of the Newark office, we have just sent the chief of staff, the former chief of staff of the Department of Human Services to the Newark office to provide hands-on jurisdiction and managerial control.

But what we need to understand for DYFS and the protection of our children is ultimately it's a case worker's decision. And that case worker needs to have from our perspective another set of eyes and ears to determine whether or not they're making the right decision. So what we're going to do is to use case practice specialists, individuals with greater experience, God willing, greater wisdom, to oversee the decision of the case worker and the supervisor to make sure that we're making the right decision.

BROWN: If things haven't changed since earlier today, you've got 110 kids out there still you haven't been able to locate. What do you know about those children? Anything at all?

MCGREEVEY: Well, a great majority of the children we're tracking down we have received preliminary information from families. In certain cases, they're older children, but we're tracking them down, we're working with the court system, we're working with the police departments, and we will continue to track down all of those children in these intervening weeks.

And we have also made good progress to date working with police systems, but sometimes we also have situations where children may have been moved out of state, but we're working with our police departments.

But the point here in all of this is we can't lose focus. This has to be about the children, about our kids. And what I say to the DYFS workers, the point being, if I can just emphasize this one point, Aaron, is that a case worker, there was a case of brutality and there was a missing child in back in October of '01. In February of '02, that case worker closed the file.

The point is, at the end of the day, it is not just about money. It has to be about accountability. That case worker made a very bad decision. And what we have to do is to bring all the interested parties to the table, but also have another set of eyes and ears to make sure that case workers are making the right decision to protect the interests of that child.

BROWN: Governor, I hope we never have to have this conversation again. I think we both do.

MCGREEVEY: That makes two of us.

BROWN: Thank you, sir, very much.

MCGREEVEY: Thanks, Aaron.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Jim McGreevey, the governor of New Jersey.

Tonight still to come on NEWSNIGHT, a surprising turn of events in the case of the so-called Buffalo Six. And talks continue in an effort to diffuse the growing confrontation with North Korea, which grew a little bit more today.

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: New terror warning to tell you about tonight. The State Department says it has received information that a terrorist group may be planning an attack against Americans on the Tanzanian island of Zanzibar. Americans are being told to be cautious. The potential targets include restaurants, clubs and hotels.

Soon after they were arrested, we took to calling them the Buffalo Six. Six Americans of Yemeni descent living in Western New York and charged as a terror cell that was supporting al Qaeda. The scene that's beginning today, the name the Buffalo Six has clearly outlived its usefulness. A split has opened wide among the six; one of them pleading guilty and revealing for the first time that Osama bin Laden asked him and the other recruits to do. Here is CNN's Susan Candiotti.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In pleading guilty, gas station owner Faysal Galab reveals new details about what Osama bin Laden told the group of would-be terrorists at an al Qaeda training camp, just a few months before the September 11 attacks.

WILLIAM HOCHUL, ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY: He indicates that bin Laden said at an appearance at the camp that 50 men were in a position to attack America.

CANDIOTTI: But after coming home to the U.S., the six men didn't tell anyone what happened, claiming they were too afraid. The plea agreement also says co-defendant Saheem Alwan had a private meeting with bin Laden in which bin Laden asked whether anyone in America is willing to die for the cause. The plea followed what are described as extensive negotiations with the government.

MICHAEL BATTLE, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY: By entering this plea of guilty, the defendant, Faysal Galab, has admitted that he is a citizen of the United States, that he knowingly and willfully contributed funds and/or services for the benefit of a specially designated terrorist, notably Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda.

CANDIOTTI: The government has never said it ever had any evidence the men were planning an attack in the U.S. But in a bail hearing last month, a prosecutor told the court it might conclude the Buffalo Six was a sleeper cell, waiting to carry out some future orders.

In court, Galab told a trial judge he agreed with everything in the plea agreement.

JOSEPH LATONA, GALAB'S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He has not admitted being a member of al Qaeda. He has not admitted planning or preparing or agreeing to engage in any act of terrorism whatsoever.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI: But he did admit to breaking the law, and in return for pleading to lesser charges, Galab now faces a maximum of seven to 10 years in prison instead of a maximum 15 to 20. Of course, he must cooperate and testify against his five friends, if it comes to that -- Aaron.

BROWN: The charges that the other five face are what then?

CANDIOTTI: Providing material support to a foreign terrorist organization. There seems to be a distinction without much of a difference there with the exception of the number of years that they face a penalty for. So in this case, of course, you see what I explained the maximum was, the difference between one charge and the other. But other than that, there doesn't appear to be much of a difference.

CANDIOTTI: Susan, thank you very much.

Susan Candiotti on the buffalo six or perhaps now the buffalo five.

BROWN; On to the crisis with North Korea which comes to us tonight by way of Santa Fe, New Mexico. North Korean diplomats have been meeting with New Mexico's Governor, Bill Richardson. governor Richardson who did this sort of thing in an official capacity during the Clinton administration, seems to be doing it again unofficially now for President Bush. And he remembers the language of diplomacy. The governor today called to talks positive, frank and candid which says very little. He did say they'll be trying again tomorrow. And given the developments of today, there does seem to be plenty to talk about.

For us tonight here is CNN's Andrea Koppel.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDREA KOPPEL, STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Only hours after North Korea blasted the United States anew and threatened war, Secretary of State Powell fired back and condemned North Korea's decision to withdraw from the nuclear nonproliferation treaty.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We hope that the North Korean leadership will realize in folly of its actions. Will realize the international community and the United States will not be intimidated and we'll continue to work for a peaceful solution.

KOPPEL: But Powell and the head of the U.N.'s nuclear watchdog agency warned Pyongyang if it doesn't reverse course soon, the next step will be the U.N. Security Council. POWELL: This kind of disrespect for such an agreement cannot go undealt with.

PAK GIL YON, N. KOREAN AMB. TO U.N.: What we're talking about this matter of weeks.

KOPPEL: Earlier in the day, North Korea's ambassador to the U.N. had a warning of his own.

PAK: Any economic sanctions can be taken by the Security Council of the United Nations against is a PPRK is a declaration of war.

KOPPEL: But the Bush White House still refused this a crisis.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today's announcement is a serious concern to North Korea's neighbors and to the entire international community.

KOPPEL: All this while in New Mexico, North Korean diplomats held a second day of private talks with Governor Bill Richardson.

GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D), NEW MEXICO: The talks have been, in a very good atmosphere. Talks have been positive, frank and candid too.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL: While emphasizing that Governor Richardson is not an official envoy or emissary of this administration, Secretary of State Powell did say he had spoken to Richardson several times since the talks began last night. And is expected to speak with him again tomorrow, Aaron, after the talks end, sometime after they pick up again at 10:30 in the morning. In addition, the White House says that President Bush called China's president Jiang Zemin, a close trading partner of North Korea in the hopes of trying to end this nuclear standoff -- Aaron.

BROWN: Just to be clear. Governor Richardson is not freelancing on this. He's obviously -- the North Koreans wouldn't have been there if the State Department hadn't allowed them to travel there. Do we know what message the State Department would like delivered to the North Koreans by Governor Richardson?

KOPPEL: You're absolutely right. I think publicly the State Department would certainly not say that Governor Richardson is freelancing, but there are others out there that would have preferred the North Koreans had selected. Nevertheless, I'm told by administration sources that Secretary Powell did ask Richardson to let the North Koreans know that if they freeze their nuclear weapons program, that the U.S. Would be willing to put in righting that security agreement that the North has been seeking for the U.S. not to attack the North.

BROWN: Andrea, thank you very much. Andrea Koppel at the State Department.

A little more on North Korea after the break. We'll talk with Wendy Sherman who advised the Clinton administration on how to deal with North Korea.

A break first this a NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: North Korea again for a few minutes. It seems to us at least this crisis developed at the speed of light.

Wendy Sherman worked at the North Korea problem for the Clinton administration. She joins us tonight to talk about it.

Welcome to the program again.

If we, the United States, give the North Koreans this written assurance we won't attack them, have they won?

WENDY SHERMAN, FORMER CLINTON ADVISER: Well, I don't think they've won, Aaron. In fact, the kind of security assurance they're looking for was negotiated between Secretary Madeleine Albright and Vice Marshall Cho, the envoy that Kim Jong Il sent to the United States to meet with president Clinton in 2000. And there was a giant communique in that October that gave those kind of no hostile intent by either party. So I don't think we have won. I think we have reaffirmed something that is absolutely core to North Korea and that is that we won't be a threat to them.

BROWN: What is it -- I apologize for what I'm sure is a really dumb question, but that what is this all about in the end?

SHERMAN: In the end, for North Korea, this is about regime survival. Being able to continue to exist and be the way they are. It is not a place any of us would really enjoy living in in the very least. For the United States and for the world it really does have to be about nuclear weapons. The Clinton administration worked very hard to negotiate a missile agreement and the reason we did that is because missiles carry nuclear weapons. Missiles in and of themselves are not great conventional weapons you want to have around but it is missiles carrying nuclear weapons that is a risk to the entire world and it is very serious.

BROWN: And the North -- lets go back to the North Korean mind set here. You said it is about to them their regime survival. Who was threatening in their view in their world outlook, who was threatening their regime?

SHERMAN: We are threatening their regime. When former Secretary of Defense Bill Perry who did a policy review for President Clinton, Secretary Albright and I went to North Korea in may of 1999, we were bombing Yugoslavia at the time and in every meeting, every North Korean said to us, we will not be Yugoslavia.

And I'm sure when Assistant Secretary James Kelly for the Bush administration went to Pyongyang a few months ago and that now famous meeting, they were saying to him, we will not be Iraq. So they believe they need weapons of mass destruction to be a deterrent against us. BROWN: The Chinese Cannot be too terribly thrilled to have another country in their neighborhood with nuclear weapons. Why aren't they seemingly pushing harder in North Korea?

SHERMAN: I think China is pushing on North Korea. They do not and have never wanted a nuclear peninsula. Nor do they want an arms race on the peninsula because there are other powers in the region that may go in the same direction this and be with a great threat to China.

But China has a very complicated relationship with North Korea, and they're probably doing this pretty gingerly because they have discovered what I think we all have, which is if you push North Korea very, very hard, even though you would think they would cave they tend to escalate and go in the other direction. So you to be careful. And China probably likes having North Korea in the region, but it certainly does not want it to be a nuclear power.

BROWN: Does the government of North Korea listen to anyone?

SHERMAN: Well, when we talk about the government of North Korea, we're principally talking about one person and that's Kim Jong Il who really inherited the throne in many ways from his father, Kim Il Sung when he died. And it really in many ways is a country, but it is also a cult.

It is in many ways a Confucion (ph) society where one person rules all, when we were coming to the end of the administration and Kim Jong Il wanted President Clinton to come to Pyongyang, it is because he believes only leaders can make decisions. He doesn't understand a Congress, a press, a public being part of that decision. He's the one who does it.

BROWN: Half a minute. Do you think this will end soon and well?

SHERMAN: I hope for the world it ends soon and well. That's the optimist in me. The pessimist in me thinks if we're not very careful, if we don't tell North Korea now, we're ready for talks but here's where and when we're ready to have them, we could find ourselves going over the edge of the cliff and it will be very catastrophic.

BROWN: Miss Sherman, thank you very much.

SHERMAN: You're welcome.

BROWN: Thanks for joining us. We'll talk to you again, I hope. Wendy Sherman who dealt with North Korea during the Clinton years.

A couple more stories from "Around the World: tonight. Staring with the ricin story. Sources telling CNN that one of the men being detained by British authorities did train in Afghanistan with al Qaeda. Also today, the FBI advised state and local authorities to study up on ricin, how the poison may be use and what the symptoms of the poisoning are.

From Paris, a follow-up on the airport baggage handler caught last month with a car load of guns, explosives and airline uniforms. Today police said he was the victim of a setup that's all they said. So we don't know who set the man up or who the weapons really belonged to.

Next on NEWSNIGHT, is it gold or is it ground beef? The $41 hamburger when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, now finally from us tonight and for the week, an exciting development. Something the world has been breathlessly waiting for a long time. Is as of today no longer a far fetched fantasy, but a reality. Not the cloned baby. Nothing as trivial as that.

But a mile from where I'm sitting inside a 134-year-old restaurant that has a life size statue of an Angus steer on is awning you can at lest sit yourself down and order the two-fisted eater's dream come true, the great American dish in its ultimate form, the red meat holy grail, a $41 hamburger.

We will show you this heart stopping thing. But not right away because we don't want you to rush away in a crazed hunger. We want you to watch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): Here's where you go to get this modern wonder of the world made from the fabled beef cattle of Kobe, Japan. Cattle who spend their days being massaged with rice wine, drinking the best cold beer, pampered and petted and coddled and cooed at, who live quite frankly a whole lot better than most of us here at NEWSNIGHT. With the result that when the pampering is over, they produce.

They produce something that needs not a reporter, but a Shakespeare to properly describe. This is it, my friends. At $41, nearly twice as expensive as its nearest competitor. Shirley Debard (ph) would have been moved to poetry.

What sits in marbled splendor upon a burnished plate fit the appetite of king or queen or emperor to state. The Michelangelo's David of meat consists of 20 ounces of Kobe's best with exotic mushrooms and homemade sauces and champagne laced stone ground mustard and a lot of garnishes honestly I can't pronounce.

Tell you what, I've seen men walk on the moon, seen a presidency decided by pregnant chads, seen cell phones the size of sugar cubes, but I never thought I would live to see this. I'm stunned. And starved.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: OK. Now, see for $41 you can get one hamburger. But we cannot feed the staff that way. But with $41 you can get 70 of these babies and we'll feed the whole crew. And you if you come by. Tonight or on Monday. We'll see you then have a great weekend from all of us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Interview With Kevin Lyons; Is North Korea Using Nukes As U.S. Attack Deterrent>