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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
White House Attempts to Build Coalition Against Iraq; Interview With George Mitchell
Aired January 23, 2003 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening again. I'm Aaron Brown.
It's been exactly one year since journalist Danny Pearl was kidnapped while working on a story in Pakistan. Danny Pearl, the husband, the father, the friend, the reporter, will be honored by his loved ones around the world next month one year after it was confirmed that he'd been killed. Tonight we think we have a fitting way to remember Danny Pearl, the journalist, in a way he probably would have appreciated, we hope so, by bringing you the story of another journalist taken captive.
His name is Robert Pelton. Pelton was kidnapped last Saturday by a Colombian paramilitary group. He was on assignment for "National Geographic Adventure" magazine. Two young American travelers were with him.
When we sat down to write this page, we were going to use it to tell you something about Robert Pelton, a guy who got the first interview with John Walker Lindh in Afghanistan, that he is a globe- trotting journalist who was respected and fearless, that he has a wife and twin daughters waiting for him to come home. We thought Danny Pearl would have liked that. That we were trying to keep another reporter's story alive.
But tonight we're able to say something here we're sure Danny would have liked even more. Reuters, the news agency, is now reporting that Robert Pelton has been released. And we hope that is correct. We are working very, very hard right now to confirm it.
But in this case, our hopes perhaps are replacing our normal caution. Hope is not a terrible thing to have on this page. It beats the heck out of the disappointment and the despair of reporting the other outcome. We'll keep you posted.
On to the news of the day, on to "The Whip," beginning with Iraq and the pressure on the administration to release some intelligence to bolster its case for action. David Ensor on that tonight. David, start us out with a headline, please.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, a senior administration official described some of that intelligence, some of that evidence against Iraq today. He didn't show any of it. However, I'm told there are plans to do just that in the coming weeks.
BROWN: David, thank you.
To the White House next and attempts to build a coalition of the willing. Dana Bash following that for us. So Dana, a headline from you tonight.
DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Aaron. A coalition of the willing. We've been asking here at the White House for some time just who's in that coalition. Today they were finally willing to say.
BROWN: Dana, thank you.
And a look at a pivotal player in the Iraq story. The secretary of state, whose message has changed some since last fall. Andrea Koppel at the State Department with that. So Andrea, a headline from you.
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, it was one of the most telling quotes of the week, "Inspections will not work." You'll remember back in August that was pretty much what Vice President Cheney predicted. Well, Secretary of State Powell, a man known better as the reluctant warrior, has reached the same conclusion.
BROWN: Andrea, thank you. Back to you and the rest in a moment.
Also coming up tonight on NEWSNIGHT, on the 23rd of January, Jason Bellini goes on patrol with the citizens militia along the Mexican border. Are they keeping us safe from terror, as they say, or just a bunch of lawless vigilantes?
A deep freeze, and we thought it was just us. A look at how so many places across the country tonight are blindingly cold.
And we ran out of time for this one last night. It will not happen again, we hope. The story of a murdered little girl and the detectives who simply refuse to forget her. All of that to come in the hour ahead.
We begin with Iraq. Today, in a column in "The New York Times," Condoleezza Rice, the president's national security adviser, wrote, "There is no mystery to voluntary disarmament, and Iraq's behavior could not offer a starker contrast." In essence, we know what disarmament looks like and Iraq isn't disarming.
Proving it, though, amounts to proving a negative. It's a tough case to make, but it appears to be the one the president and the administration trying to make. The president himself we suspect will make it next week in the State of the Union speech. We get some previews today. Here again, CNN's David Ensor.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY: One last chance.
ENSOR (voice-over): Another day, another senior Bush administration official making the case against Iraq, and this time describing some of the evidence.
WOLFOWITZ: Today we know from multiple sources that Saddam has ordered that any scientist who cooperates during interviews will be killed, as well as their families.
ENSOR: Bush administration officials and the CIA leadership know such charges will not be enough to persuade many. That is why senior officials say they are now examining the top-secret file against Saddam Hussein. The evidence of ongoing weapons programs to see what could be declassified and made public in coming weeks.
WOLFOWITZ: We have a powerful case. It is a case grounded in history, it is a case grounded in current intelligence.
GRAHAM FULLER, FMR. CIA ANALYST: I think they will need to be about as frank and forthcoming as they can conceivably being be without really putting an end to a specific valuable source.
ENSOR: For U.S. intelligence, protecting sources and methods is the holy grail. Sources say some of the evidence comes from human agents, Iraqis who are helping the CIA and whose lives could be put in grave danger. Other evidence is aerial photography, but the evidence on Iraq, some of it, is taken by spy satellites that take much better pictures than this commercial one. And the U.S. doesn't want others knowing just how good they are.
Then there are signals intercepts. Iraqi communications monitored by the National Security Agency.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the intercept makes it absolutely clear that you have an ability to read or intercept a specific communication between say one person and another, the risk obviously is that, once that's known, that that will dry up.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR: Despite the need to protect sources and methods, U.S. officials say expect some fairly significant revelations from the intelligence files in coming weeks, as the Bush administration builds its case for war -- Aaron.
BROWN: Let me try two. Walk away from this one if you have to. Do we have any sense of how they're going to present this? Are we going to see pictures of? Are we going to hear tapes of conversations? How is this going to be laid out?
ENSOR: They haven't said how they're going to lay it out. I do gather there's a strong sense that they ought to release some photography. That there ought to be some pictures. Pictures are dramatic.
You remember back in the Cuban crisis, when President Kennedy produced some, that made a big difference. They're hoping to find evidence that will be visually dramatic, as well as some other intelligence that they can safely put out without compromising the sources and methods. BROWN: And you've looked at a lot of the satellite pictures in your role in covering national security matters. Are they going to be as clear cut? I mean, the U-2 pictures that we saw during the Cuban missile crisis, there was no question what we were looking at. We were looking at missiles, and we knew their range. They only had to go 90 miles. Is it going to be that clear this time?
ENSOR: I think the problem is that it is not, Aaron. The people I've talked to who have seen some of the pictures say we've got pictures of facilities, we can tell you that chemical weapons were made inside them. But it doesn't show that on the picture. The problem is the pictures are not as dramatic as they would like them to be. They're still working on this problem, though. They may come up with something.
BROWN: David, thank you. David Ensor, who covers national security for us, in Washington tonight.
On now to the question of allies. Today, Russia's president spoke with the president of the United States and said don't count on us yet. A coalition of the not so willing appears to have the upper hand for now. That could change with the inspectors' report in less than a week, and change again after the president's State of the Union speech the next day. But even if nothing changes, the administration is putting a brave face on it all. Again from the White House, CNN's Dana Bash.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BASH (voice-over): In the face of defiance from key allies, like Germany and France, the White House has a new line: "If you're with us, great. If not, others will be."
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: President Bush is confident that Europe will answer the call. It remains possible that France won't be on the line.
BASH: Administration officials say the U.S. military could topple Saddam Hussein alone. But with polls showing American public support for action drops without a coalition, the U.S. is now making the case that even if the U.N. doesn't approve, plenty of countries will be on board.
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: And I'm quite confident if it comes to that we'll be joined by many nations.
BASH: Who are those nations? Topping the list, Great Britain, preparing to send more than 30,000 troops. Tony Blair comes to Camp David next week to huddle with Mr. Bush. Other European nations who have signaled at least political support for a U.S.-led effort against Saddam Hussein, Spain, Italy, Poland, and the Czech Republic. Romania and Bulgaria are likely to allow U.S. use of their bases and ports.
And Australia this week deployed the first contingent of troops to prepare for an attack on Iraq. Some Arab nations, like Kuwait, Qatar, Amman, and Bahrain, are already allowing logistical support. Turkey and Saudi Arabia have not yet committed, but U.S. officials are optimistic they will.
Two key U.N. nations, China and Russia, have not been as firmly opposed to war as France and Germany, but have not warmed to it either. Mr. Bush phoned Russian President Vladimir Putin to discuss Iraq Thursday morning. Some experts warn moving without some key allies could have long-term diplomatic consequences.
GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: If the resolution doesn't go through the right way and the United States has to go in without a U.N. resolution, we'll still have allies. We won't have the same weight of legitimacy in our actions. And there will be consequences to be paid downstream.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: Now Aaron, Bush officials admit that it will be difficult to do things outside of any kind of attack against Iraq down the road, like trying to rebuild Iraq without a broad coalition of support. And some analysts say there could be other consequences, like some kind of risk to the overall war on terrorism. That is something that some analysts and some experts really do worry about with this.
BROWN: Just quickly, Dana, do we know are there any inducements being offered to any of these willing allies at all?
BASH: Behind the scenes, you never know exactly what's going on. But what the administration is hoping is that the more they make the case, the more they make it clear that they're going to do this, that countries around the world will look at the U.S. and say -- you know, worry if they're going to be with them or we're going to be kind of left in the dust, so we better get with them. But the U.S. is also making it clear -- even responding to comments like what you mentioned earlier from Russia -- that they are -- they don't know how they're going to deal with this, and it really depends on what happens on Monday when the inspectors' report is due at the U.N. They're going to try to figure out how to proceed from there.
BROWN: Dana, thank you. Dana Bash at the White House tonight.
When the full history of this confrontation with Iraq is written -- and it has a long way to go -- it's a good chance it will -- that Colin Powell had his doubts about the wisdom of going to war with the support from only a narrow coalition of allies. The secretary of state has always counseled against rushing into things, and a temperament like that does not change overnight.
So what to make of Mr. Powell's emergence lately as the administration's chief salesman on Iraq. From the State Department tonight, CNN's Andrea Koppel.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
POWELL: In the absence of cooperation, the inspectors will not find anything...
KOPPEL (voice-over): It's now a familiar refrain from an unlikely messenger. Once described as the lone dove among hawks, for months, Secretary of State Powell, who has been the Bush administration's most ardent advocate of giving Iraq's president Saddam Hussein one last chance to disarm.
POWELL: We have to see whether or not Iraq will cooperate and permit the inspectors to do their job.
KOPPEL: It was Powell who pushed President Bush last fall to seek another U.N. resolution demanding Iraq allow weapons inspectors to return.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Saddam has perfected the game of cheat and retreat.
KOPPEL: Vice President Cheney, on the other hand, fought a losing battle last August, when he argued inspections would be a waste of time.
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There is a great danger that it would provide false comfort that Saddam was somehow back in his box.
KOPPEL: A position Powell now supports. The question isn't how much longer do you need for inspections to work, Powell told journalists this week, inspections will not work. Analysts say tougher talk, especially when it comes from Powell, sends a powerful message.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you want to convince the world, if you want to convince the American people, if you want to convince Saddam Hussein that it is time for the United States act, that war is now rather than later, you have to make the case. And Colin Powell is now making that case as well as anybody else in this administration.
KOPPEL: Twelve years ago, when Powell was chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, the now retired four-star general was also initially reluctant to go to war against Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KOPPEL: Even now, Powell aides defend the secretary's preference for going the diplomatic rather than the military route. And despite a growing riff between the United States and some of its key allies on the Security Council, Secretary Powell still believes that his decision and the president's decision to go the U.N. route back in November rather than taking unilateral military action, Aaron, was the best choice.
BROWN: What happened in a sense? I mean what happened to the argument of last fall that inspections will work or might work or could work, that we're now at the point where the secretary says they will not work?
KOPPEL: Well, the secretary likes to say that it's not just the last two months of inspections, but really the last 12 years of Saddam Hussein failing to comply with U.N. resolutions. It's difficult to say, Aaron. I speak with people who know the secretary's thinking, and just two weeks ago I was told that the line that the secretary was pushing is you've got to give inspectors more time. It's working. Containment is working.
Then, just a couple of days ago, the line shifted suddenly and I asked why. And they said, "Well, the big guy" -- and I said, "Who's the big guy?" They said, "The president has pretty much made up his mind. He's very, very close. And Secretary Powell, as you know, is the good soldier, and he follows orders."
BROWN: Andrea, thank you. Andrea Koppel at the State Department tonight.
One more on Iraq, and it's in Iraq. We say this each time we go there. We have no real way of knowing what the average Iraqi is thinking. We do know, however, what a lot of average Iraqis are doing today and have been doing now all week long. CNN's Nic Robertson is in Baghdad for us tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Treading a now familiar path, thousands of protesters poured on to the streets of Baghdad in the current support of President Saddam Hussein. The almost daily demonstrations played back on Iraqi TV, hinting the leadership here is preparing the country for war.
Indications we enforced by President Saddam Hussein's frequent televised appearances with top officials discussing readiness for war. Despite the apparent hardening of the mood and indications of growing intolerance by Iraqis towards the U.N. inspection mission, U.N. experts visited several sites, including conducting a previously contentious helicopter mission into northern Iraq.
Iraqi officials, however, renewed accusations that inspectors the U.N. says were making an off-duty visit to a mosque were in fact inspecting it.
GEN. HUSSAM AMIN, IRAQI NATIONAL MONITORING DIRECTORATE: It is intended inspections visits without the presence of national monitoring directorate staff.
ROBERTSON: At the U.N. Security Council next week Amin says he expects Iraq to get only mediocre marks on the inspection report. And that despite Iraq's best efforts, the key U.N. demand of private interviews with Iraqi scientists has not yet been fully resolved.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did our best to push the scientists and send them to the site. But they refused to make such interviews without the presence of national monitoring directorate (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
ROBERTSON (on camera): Iraq's newspapers are still defiant in the face of possible war. One owned by the president's son warns the United States that the blood lost on September 11 could be, in their words, "like a picnic in comparison to the blood lost during an invasion of Iraq."
Nic Robertson, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight: more on the sales job the administration has to do with Iraq. We'll talk with former Senate Majority Leader George Mitchell about what he thinks still needs to be done.
And later tonight, protecting America from terrorists. At least that's what some people in Arizona say they are trying to do. Others, however, are not so sure. Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Back to making the case on Iraq at home and abroad. It is not a case that easily fits on a bumper sticker or a bullet (ph) chart. With us in Washington to talk about what lies ahead for the administration, former senator, former envoy, Senator George Mitchell. It's always good to see you, Senator. Nice to see you tonight, sir.
Let me start this way. Do you think in your gut, I guess -- do you feel in your gut -- that the president, in fact, that the administration, in fact, has already decided?
GEORGE MITCHELL, FMR. SENATE MAJORITY LEADER: Well, that's hard to know because, of course, the president and secretary of state and many others have said just the opposite. That they've not finally decided and they're keeping the option open. I just don't know -- in the end, I have to take the statements at face value.
BROWN: OK. If the president were to call you up and say, Senator, I seem to be having some trouble convincing enough people that war may be the only way to get this done. What ought I do? What would you tell him?
MITCHELL: Well, I think they're already doing what has to be done, and that's beginning an all-out effort to persuade Americans and others that the only way to disarm Iraq is by force. Your earlier section with David Ensor discussed the review of intelligence data to determine what can safely and prudently be declassified.
What you've had until now is a series of assertions with no evidence to support them. I think what's needed now is a combination of assertion and evidence, and I think that will occur. I think it will occur, to some extent, in the State of the Union address. And beyond that, by the president and other members of the administration.
BROWN: And do you think that will occur both at home and overseas?
MITCHELL: Well, of course the president's speech is going to be watched everywhere by a lot of people around the world, not just Americans. And the statements by Secretary Powell and others are followed carefully around the world. I think it will be a combined effort, but I don't think the audiences can be neatly categorized, because statements made here by the appropriate officials are heard elsewhere as well.
BROWN: Well, right. But I guess I would -- the question really goes to whether they are heard differently. Americans tend to look at their president differently than Italians might look at the president of the United States or Spaniards might look at the president of the United States. Americans, by and large, want to believe their president. That's not necessarily true overseas.
MITCHELL: Oh, I don't think Americans are all that different in their view of their political leaders and people in other countries. It depends upon the leader, of course. And many American president who are disbelieved by a vast majority of American citizens. So I think that the real issue is whether they're going to continue through the U.N. process.
The threshold decision, really, in effect, crossing the Rubicon occurred last fall, when the president made the internal decision to go to the United Nations. I think it would be very difficult now to abruptly simply not fulfill that process. And there's one other point, Aaron, that I think ought to be made. Much of the discussion is based upon what I believe to be a false premise. That the choice is between going to war or going through the U.N.
I don't think going through the U.N. means that there won't be a war. It means that you have to follow a process which could conceivably, and some would argue likely, will lead to conflict. But only after certain circumstances occur and certain events take place. I hope that the president continues through the U.N. with his team, because I think obviously not so much for the military support -- we really don't need any military help in this effort -- but for political, diplomatic and a variety of other reasons, it would be better to have a broadly-based international coalition buttressed and strengthened by a U.N. effort.
BROWN: Do you think the president is going to have political problems at home if he does go it alone in (UNINTELLIGIBLE)? That is to say, without the stamp of the U.N. on it?
MITCHELL: Not immediately. I think the reality is that once the fighting starts and once American men and women are engaged in combat, the American people will overwhelmingly support the commander in chief and the American troops irrespective of the circumstances. Now obviously the polls are quite clear that support for unilateral action or with just Britain, say, is much lower here and abroad. But the significant thing about U.N. action is, Aaron, how dramatically public opinion changes both in the United States and particularly in Europe, and in the Middle East as well, and most of the Arab countries, once U.N. action is involved.
BROWN: Well Senator, I think certainly in the weeks ahead, if not the days ahead, we're going to know the answer. It's good to talk to you. Thanks again for your wisdom tonight, Senator George Mitchell from Washington.
MITCHELL: Thank you, Aaron.
BROWN: Still ahead on the program tonight: protecting the United States. But from what exactly? We'll meet some people patrolling the U.S.-Mexico border on the lookout, they say, for terrorists. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: As we told you last night, Tom Ridge was confirmed as the first homeland security chief. And as you probably heard more than a few times, there are 22 different agencies involved in protecting the country from terror.
Well that number is not exactly right. There are 23. Except you wouldn't call this an agency, exactly. Try posse.
And they don't answer to Tom Ridge or anyone else, for that matter. They see themselves as the guys in the white hats on the hunt for possible terrorists along the Mexican border. Critics say they are vigilantes who should take their guns and go home.
Here's CNN's Jason Bellini.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Caravanning (ph) through the dusty Arizona desert, a modern day Wild West citizens posse heads for the border with Mexico. A militia of former military members who are ranchers, retirees and concerned Americans, self- deputized to help secure the U.S. border. Something they say the U.S. Border Patrol fails to do on its own. Chris Simcox is their leader.
CHRIS SIMCOX, MILITIA LEADER: If anyone wanted to attack America, boy do they have a perfect opportunity right now.
BELLINI: Which means that that leaves it up to the citizens. So they prowl the desert, mostly on weekends.
(on camera): This is not the first group to converge on the U.S. border with Mexico to try to stop illegal entry. But the name Chris Simcox has given to his group civil homeland defense. Suggests an objective that is different: stopping terrorists from entering the United States.
(voice-over): Terrorists, they imagine, sneaking into the U.S. with...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A bag of anthrax.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just come here, by little briefcase and my smallpox and walk right into the United States.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's it.
SIMCOX: So we've made this report back.
BELLINI: Simcox has based his operation from the office of a small newspaper he purchased a year ago, "The Tombstone Tumbleweed," which he uses to spread his message.
SIMCOX: In spite of the president's homeland defense initiatives, we have not done anything realistic about protecting our borders.
BELLINI: His followers...
SIMCOX: On down to the river.
BELLINI: ... numbering on this day around 20, are responding to the president's appeal for Americans to be vigilant and providing what they call their service to America.
But critics, like Isabel Garcia, a lawyer with the immigrant support organization Derechos Humanos, call it something else.
ISABEL GARCIA, DERECHOS HUMANOS: They are vigilantes. They're taking the law into their own hands. And so we don't buy in or believe their claims that somehow they're making us safer.
SIMCOX: Back in August, we came across a group that we know were speaking Arabic.
BELLINI: Simcox's group says they're not vigilantes and their policy is to contact the Border Patrol rather than confront.
The Border Patrol won't comment on the group specifically, but says the job is best left to the government.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would comment, but I can't.
BELLINI: The Border Patrol says immigration as a whole is down and it's not aware of any Middle Easterners illegally entering the U.S. from Mexico. Simcox insists his group doesn't plan to use force.
SIMCOX: They now know that this area is being patrolled.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If any of them get through, that's too many.
BELLINI: But he doesn't mind it if those on the other side fear them.
Jason Bellini, CNN, on the U.S.-Mexico border.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: A few more stories from around the country, beginning in Louisiana at the hearing for two American airmen involved in a friendly fire incident last spring in Afghanistan. You'll recall four Canadians died, eight more wounded when one of the pilots mistakenly dropped a 500-pound bomb on them. Today, the defense had an F-16 flown in, so the officer in charge of the hearing could get a firsthand look at the type of plane involved and the complexity the pilots were dealing with that day. The defense wrapped up with statements from the two airmen defending their actions, but also expressing anguish and regret for the loss of innocent life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARLEY LEGER, WIDOW: I would just like to say to Major Umbach and Major Schmidt, thank you. And I appreciate your apologies and they are accepted. Major Umbach touched me very deeply. And it was very much appreciated and very much needed. So, thank you for that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Defense and prosecution still have final papers to submit, closing arguments to make. Then a hearing officer will decide whether to recommend the men be court-martialed.
The signs say billions served. The company today said $344 million lost. Mark this day in business history, the first ever quarterly loss for McDonald's. The company also announced the closing of about 700 restaurants, including about 200 here in the United States.
Nell Carter died today, an old-fashioned performer, the star of screen and stage and nightclub cabaret, short in stature, huge in presence. Oh, man, could she sing. Nell Carter was just 54.
Still to come on NEWSNIGHT: Are some gay men trying to get HIV? We'll talk with the editor of "Rolling Stone" magazine about a controversial article in his current issue and challenges to that article.
And we'll also head south to enjoy the cold, their news from the deep freeze -- as NEWSNIGHT continues from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: And next on NEWSNIGHT: a controversial story in "Rolling Stone" magazine. Are some gay men trying to get AIDS?
This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: A quick look now at some other stories around the world tonight: first to Kuwait, where a man was arrested for killing one American, seriously wounding another. The man has confessed to the crime, according to Kuwaiti authorities. The suspect ambushed the two American civilians outside the U.S. military camp in Kuwait on Tuesday.
The latest on the ongoing strike in Venezuela: Hundreds of thousands of people from across the country crowded together today to show support for the president, Hugo Chavez. Late this afternoon, a pipe bomb exploded near the plaza where the demonstration took place. Two people died. At least three others were wounded.
And a fascinating discovery in China: a fossil creature that scientists say is a small dinosaur. The creature provides a new link to the origin of birds and their ability to fly.
A story about a story tonight -- sometimes, these can be a bit tedious. We don't think this is one of them. It begins with a truly startling premise found in the pages of "Rolling Stone" magazine, an article arguing that there's an alarming trend among gay men who actively want to get HIV. They are said to be chasing the bug.
"Newsweek" magazine has also looked into the story and says that "Rolling Stone"'s claims are wildly exaggerated, that sources are taken out of context and misrepresented entirely.
Joining us now to defend and discuss the reporting, Ed Needham, who is the managing editor of "Rolling Stone"; and from "Newsweek" magazine, writer Seth Mnookin.
Good to see you both.
Ed, lay out, as quickly as you comfortably can, the basic thrust of the article.
ED NEEDHAM, MANAGING EDITOR, "ROLLING STONE": Sure.
This is a small and unrepresentative, but nevertheless extraordinary group of gay men who, for a number of different reasons, have decided that they would actively like to become HIV-positive.
BROWN: The number that appears in the magazine is up to or as much as 25 percent, one in four.
NEEDHAM: This is the rather inaccurate and misleading story that...
BROWN: That number is not the...
NEEDHAM: ... that "Newsweek" has chosen to report.
If you look at our story carefully, I think you'll see that our source claims that up to 25 percent of men may be in denial about their motives for having unprotected sex with people who they know to be HIV-positive. The "Rolling Stone" story claims that this is a tiny, minute, but nevertheless remarkable group of men. "Newsweek" has seen to fit to claim, to take this percentage
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: I want to turn to Seth in a second.
But you really think that the reader comes away from the "Rolling Stone" piece with a sense that it is a small, minute group of men?
NEEDHAM: Yes. We state that in the story.
BROWN: OK.
All right, tell me, Seth, what your reporting has found. And we'll go from there.
SETH MNOOKIN, "NEWSWEEK": I'll just read.
The "Rolling Stone" article quotes a doctor. And it says, "He estimates that at least 25 percent of all newly infected gay men fall into that category of people who are trying to get infected." First of all, the doctor said he didn't say that. He said that he told the "Rolling Stone" fact-checker he didn't say that.
And I think what that does is, it creates an impression that there's an enormous trend out there and it takes attention away from the real story, which is that there is a very small part of the gay population for which this is an issue.
BROWN: And this is -- no one actually disputes that part. I think this has been out there for some time that, for whatever reasons, there are some gay men who are trying -- I mean, it sounds crazy to say it, but are trying.
MNOOKIN: And even more problematic is the fact that there's this sense, especially among a younger generation, that HIV is something that's treatable. The "Rolling Stone" article quotes them as saying it's like diabetes. And so you have more and more people having unprotected sex.
And one thing I think the article does is conflate having unprotected sex with trying to get HIV. But, really, all we focused on, all "Newsweek" focused on was the fact that there are two medical doctors who are quoted about this. Both of those doctors say that either of their quotes were entirely fabricated or else they were taken completely out of context. And they said they told the fact- checkers that.
BROWN: That is clearly the most serious charge here.
NEEDHAM: Absolutely.
We've gone through the writer's notes and we've gone through the fact-checkers' notes. And both doctors that we spoke to confirmed, both, to the fact-checkers, that that's what they said. What Mr. Mnookin has a problem with is that the facts that he gave to the doctors to confirm were inaccurate. And so, naturally, they would deny that they said that, because they didn't say what "Newsweek" claims they said.
BROWN: I'm sorry. Did you read them the quotes?
MNOOKIN: All I did was read them what was in the article. I also faxed them the articles in their entirety. So, there's nothing that could have been taken out of context. I didn't summarize it in my own words. BROWN: Ed, I think, in that regard, it's your serve. He's said he just sent them the quotes.
MNOOKIN: Well, this is a rigorously researched story. It's a rigorously fact-checked story.
BROWN: Do you think your sources got either cold feet or pressured from gay activist groups or, obviously, and AIDS activist groups who are not thrilled with the story?
NEEDHAM: I don't know what their motives might be for saying something different to us as they did to Mr. Mnookin. You would have to ask them that.
BROWN: You don't have a gut feeling one way or another?
Was there pressure brought to bear either on the reporter or on the magazine not to run the story? Let's try it that way.
NEEDHAM: Absolutely not. No, I think this is an extraordinary story and worth reporting. I think...
BROWN: No group came to you or to the reporter and said, first of all, we think you're wrong, and, secondly, this is a killer story if you put this out there, because this will be seized by anti-gay groups and we're going to get clobbered? No one said that?
NEEDHAM: No, this is a true story and we have two case studies of men who happily cooperated and told us the full facts of their willingness to become HIV-positive. It's undeniably this
(CROSSTALK)
NEEDHAM: ... exists.
BROWN: Well, two is not 25 percent.
NEEDHAM: No. And we do not make claim that it's a trend or that it's 25 percent.
BROWN: Well, go ahead.
MNOOKIN: There's nothing I can do except point to what's in the article. There is a sentence that says up to 25 percent.
And it also -- it goes on to say, with about 40,000 new infections in the United States per year, according to government reports, that would mean about 10,000 each year attributable to this definition of people trying to get HIV. That's another conflation, because almost half of all infections now are heterosexual.
So, when I look at the figures in this story, I get the sense that there was an effort to sort of pump it up and make what is an alarming story, even if it's two people, turn it into something much greater and do this enormous trend story.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: There's "Newsweek"'s reporting and "Rolling Stone"'s reporting. And the best thing to do is read them both and figure out where you come down.
Thank you both for coming in tonight.
NEEDHAM: You're welcome.
MNOOKIN: Thank you for having us.
BROWN: Thank you very, very much.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT: It's very cold. It's really cold. In fact, it's snowing down South. We'll go to West Virginia, I think, to take a look at "Their News" after a break.
And later: the story of baby Hope and the cop who would not give up on the case.
This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: You know how cold it is? This isn't a joke. It's so cold that, in New York, even the rats are staying home, underground, to stay warm. No such luck for local reporters, where, these days, frostbite seems to be the occupational hazard.
A look now at "Their News" from station WAVY in Norfolk, Virginia.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the station on your side, this is WAVY News 10.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Snow, snow and more snow, anywhere from a light dusting on the Peninsula to nearly foot on the Outer Banks. The white stuff is everywhere and, with it, some of the coldest temperatures we've seen in a few years.
This afternoon, we barely got above 20 degrees. And, by tomorrow night, the frigid forecast is going to dip into the single digits. It's winter blast 2003 part two. We have crews all across the area tonight. Tracey Moynihan is live in Virginia Beach. Derek Wing traveled to Carteret County in North Carolina, where the snow was coming down. And Ava Hurdle is standing by live in the Outer Banks, the hardest-hit area by this winter storm.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And some parts of Virginia Beach saw up to 5 inches of snow.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: WAVY News 10 Tracey Moynihan continues our team coverage tonight with more on how the beach is dealing with the white stuff. TRACEY MOYNIHAN, WAVY REPORTER: Well, Carolyn, the white stuff has stopped falling. But I can tell you, the temperatures are continuing to fall. It is freezing out here, about 19 degrees. Let me show you about the amount of snow that we found out here, my trustee ruler.
Take a look right here, about 4 inches of snow out here at the ocean front.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Of course, we do continue our team coverage now with WAVY News 10's Ava Hurdle, who is live on the Outer Banks, one of the areas hardest-hit by the snowstorm.
AVA HURDLE, WAVY REPORTER: Alveta, I think I know what it feels like in a deep freezer right now.
We can tell you that, here on the Outer Banks, the snowstorm made this area come to a virtual standstill before the snowstorm ended in early afternoon.
Blowing, drifting, powdery snow blanketed the Outer Banks, closing businesses and schools, keeping most people indoors. But for those who did venture out, the going was slow.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is our first attempt. We just live right up there. So, it's pretty bad. Yes.
HURDLE: Why are you out?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've got to get -- a friend has got to get to work. So, we have got to get her back to her car. And then we have to get some food.
HURDLE: Other than that, you wouldn't be out here, huh?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No way. It's nasty.
HURDLE: Have you seen it like this before?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never down here, never.
HURDLE: Officials figure the area received between 5 to 10 inches of snow.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, as you can see, the Outer Banks wasn't the only area in North Carolina hit hard by all that snow.
WAVY News 10's Derek Wing continues our team coverage now from Carteret County, where people took advantage of the wintry weather -- Derek.
DEREK WING, WAVY REPORTER: A late Christmas present for the people of Carteret County. They woke up this morning to a blizzard, with snow covering the roads and canceling school and work. So, many decided to take advantage of it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is probably the most I've seen in a while, I reckon. But it's a good thing. That's for sure.
WING: Now, what may not be a good thing is that the temperatures are expected to stay pretty low for the next couple of days. And that means that the snow on roads like this is not expected to disappear any time soon. And that could mean some hazardous driving conditions for motorists.
In Carteret County, North Carolina, Derek Wing, WAVY News 10.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: "Their News" from Virginia tonight.
Next on NEWSNIGHT: segment seven, one police officer's 12-year quest for justice for a tiny unknown victim.
A short break -- right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It's a heartbreaking thing to say: a wake held tonight for a 7-year-old boy, even more painful considering how that boy lived and, of course, how he died. The wake was for Faheem Williams, one of those lost boys of Newark, New Jersey. More than 200 people turned out, including the boy's mother. His brothers are still in the hospital recovering from starvation and abuse. Faheem's funeral will be held tomorrow.
The memorial tonight reminds us of a word and the story of another child who never got a chance to grow up. The word is obsession. We normally think of obsession as a bad thing, as something to conquer before it consumes us. We're told all the time to give it a rest or let it go, to just move on. That's the word.
This story, though, is of a cop who wouldn't let it go, who hasn't moved on and, even though he's no longer a cop, won't give it a rest. His obsession is with a girl with no name and her killer. In that light, we can think of a better word than obsession: devotion.
Here's CNN's Beth Nissen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In a story full of terrible details, one stood out. The 7-year-old boy found dead in that Newark basement had been stuffed into a plastic storage bin.
For police across the river in New York City, that image recalled this one: a plastic picnic cooler found at the site of a Manhattan highway in 1991. Stuffed inside it was the body of a malnourished 4- or 5-year-old girl, naked, bound, abused, suffocated.
RET. DET. JERRY GIORGIO, NEW YORK POLICE DEPARTMENT: It was a horrible sight. People say, with time, memory fades. I can close my eyes and I could picture it today as vividly as I did that day. It was a horrible sight. NISSEN: Veteran NYPD Detective Jerry Giorgio says no case affects cops, even the most veteran, most hardened ones, like the abuse and death of a child.
GIORGIO: Most of us are parents, or grandparents, in my particular case. And it really hits very, very close to home.
NISSEN: Within hours of finding the small, unidentified body in the picnic cooler, detectives in NYPD's 34th Precinct had adopted her, had given her a name -- baby Hope. Forensic dentists and anthropologists helped give her a face, or at least a vague sketch of one.
GIORGIO: Unfortunately, this baby was so badly decomposed that you could not in any way make out her features.
NISSEN: For days, officers and detectives volunteered to work double shifts on the case.
GIORGIO: A case like this, nobody's looking at that clock.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There you go, ma'am. We're investigating a homicide.
GIORGIO: They'll go that extra mile.
NISSEN: Detectives had hundreds of calls, but no solid leads. Months passed, then a year, then two. Baby Hope's file was moved into the cold-case drawer. But Detective Giorgio couldn't forget Hope.
GIORGIO: The cardinal rule, don't get involved? I got involved. I became emotionally involved in the case.
NISSEN: Two years after they found her, Giorgio and his fellow detectives decided to remove baby Hope's unclaimed remains from the morgue and bury her as one of their own. At the funeral, Detective Giorgio and his wife, Catherine (ph), took the position reserved for next of kin.
GIORGIO: I took her as our own. She was our baby. I keep saying our baby, our squad, our baby.
NISSEN: Detectives from the 34th paid for the headstone, engraved with their shield, the only name they ever had for the girl, the only date they were sure of in her short life.
GIORGIO: The day that we found her, which was July 23, 1991.
NISSEN: It's been more than a decade. Detective Giorgio retired from the NYPD. He now works as an investigator for the New York DA's office. Yet he still has a desk at the 34th Precinct. He still has hope that the case will be solved.
GIORGIO: We worked on cases here that were 10, 15, 20 years gone by, past, and we've solved them. So I'm always optimistic.
I'll be back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, Jerry.
NISSEN: Giorgio still visits Hope's grave.
GIORGIO: I sometimes think of what she would be doing now, 11, 12 years later. She'd be a teenager, a junior in high school, dating and looking forward to her future. She's with me every day.
NISSEN: The detective still has Hope.
Beth Nissen, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: That's our report for tonight.
A reminder: If you have not, you can go to our Web site at CNN.com/NEWSNIGHT and sign up for the daily newsletter that we send out, the daily e-mail we send out. It will tell you about the program we are planning and a lot of really cool backstage NEWSNIGHT gossip -- well, not that much, but some.
We'll see you tomorrow at 10:00 Eastern. Until then, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Interview With George Mitchell>
Aired January 23, 2003 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening again. I'm Aaron Brown.
It's been exactly one year since journalist Danny Pearl was kidnapped while working on a story in Pakistan. Danny Pearl, the husband, the father, the friend, the reporter, will be honored by his loved ones around the world next month one year after it was confirmed that he'd been killed. Tonight we think we have a fitting way to remember Danny Pearl, the journalist, in a way he probably would have appreciated, we hope so, by bringing you the story of another journalist taken captive.
His name is Robert Pelton. Pelton was kidnapped last Saturday by a Colombian paramilitary group. He was on assignment for "National Geographic Adventure" magazine. Two young American travelers were with him.
When we sat down to write this page, we were going to use it to tell you something about Robert Pelton, a guy who got the first interview with John Walker Lindh in Afghanistan, that he is a globe- trotting journalist who was respected and fearless, that he has a wife and twin daughters waiting for him to come home. We thought Danny Pearl would have liked that. That we were trying to keep another reporter's story alive.
But tonight we're able to say something here we're sure Danny would have liked even more. Reuters, the news agency, is now reporting that Robert Pelton has been released. And we hope that is correct. We are working very, very hard right now to confirm it.
But in this case, our hopes perhaps are replacing our normal caution. Hope is not a terrible thing to have on this page. It beats the heck out of the disappointment and the despair of reporting the other outcome. We'll keep you posted.
On to the news of the day, on to "The Whip," beginning with Iraq and the pressure on the administration to release some intelligence to bolster its case for action. David Ensor on that tonight. David, start us out with a headline, please.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, a senior administration official described some of that intelligence, some of that evidence against Iraq today. He didn't show any of it. However, I'm told there are plans to do just that in the coming weeks.
BROWN: David, thank you.
To the White House next and attempts to build a coalition of the willing. Dana Bash following that for us. So Dana, a headline from you tonight.
DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Aaron. A coalition of the willing. We've been asking here at the White House for some time just who's in that coalition. Today they were finally willing to say.
BROWN: Dana, thank you.
And a look at a pivotal player in the Iraq story. The secretary of state, whose message has changed some since last fall. Andrea Koppel at the State Department with that. So Andrea, a headline from you.
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, it was one of the most telling quotes of the week, "Inspections will not work." You'll remember back in August that was pretty much what Vice President Cheney predicted. Well, Secretary of State Powell, a man known better as the reluctant warrior, has reached the same conclusion.
BROWN: Andrea, thank you. Back to you and the rest in a moment.
Also coming up tonight on NEWSNIGHT, on the 23rd of January, Jason Bellini goes on patrol with the citizens militia along the Mexican border. Are they keeping us safe from terror, as they say, or just a bunch of lawless vigilantes?
A deep freeze, and we thought it was just us. A look at how so many places across the country tonight are blindingly cold.
And we ran out of time for this one last night. It will not happen again, we hope. The story of a murdered little girl and the detectives who simply refuse to forget her. All of that to come in the hour ahead.
We begin with Iraq. Today, in a column in "The New York Times," Condoleezza Rice, the president's national security adviser, wrote, "There is no mystery to voluntary disarmament, and Iraq's behavior could not offer a starker contrast." In essence, we know what disarmament looks like and Iraq isn't disarming.
Proving it, though, amounts to proving a negative. It's a tough case to make, but it appears to be the one the president and the administration trying to make. The president himself we suspect will make it next week in the State of the Union speech. We get some previews today. Here again, CNN's David Ensor.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY: One last chance.
ENSOR (voice-over): Another day, another senior Bush administration official making the case against Iraq, and this time describing some of the evidence.
WOLFOWITZ: Today we know from multiple sources that Saddam has ordered that any scientist who cooperates during interviews will be killed, as well as their families.
ENSOR: Bush administration officials and the CIA leadership know such charges will not be enough to persuade many. That is why senior officials say they are now examining the top-secret file against Saddam Hussein. The evidence of ongoing weapons programs to see what could be declassified and made public in coming weeks.
WOLFOWITZ: We have a powerful case. It is a case grounded in history, it is a case grounded in current intelligence.
GRAHAM FULLER, FMR. CIA ANALYST: I think they will need to be about as frank and forthcoming as they can conceivably being be without really putting an end to a specific valuable source.
ENSOR: For U.S. intelligence, protecting sources and methods is the holy grail. Sources say some of the evidence comes from human agents, Iraqis who are helping the CIA and whose lives could be put in grave danger. Other evidence is aerial photography, but the evidence on Iraq, some of it, is taken by spy satellites that take much better pictures than this commercial one. And the U.S. doesn't want others knowing just how good they are.
Then there are signals intercepts. Iraqi communications monitored by the National Security Agency.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the intercept makes it absolutely clear that you have an ability to read or intercept a specific communication between say one person and another, the risk obviously is that, once that's known, that that will dry up.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR: Despite the need to protect sources and methods, U.S. officials say expect some fairly significant revelations from the intelligence files in coming weeks, as the Bush administration builds its case for war -- Aaron.
BROWN: Let me try two. Walk away from this one if you have to. Do we have any sense of how they're going to present this? Are we going to see pictures of? Are we going to hear tapes of conversations? How is this going to be laid out?
ENSOR: They haven't said how they're going to lay it out. I do gather there's a strong sense that they ought to release some photography. That there ought to be some pictures. Pictures are dramatic.
You remember back in the Cuban crisis, when President Kennedy produced some, that made a big difference. They're hoping to find evidence that will be visually dramatic, as well as some other intelligence that they can safely put out without compromising the sources and methods. BROWN: And you've looked at a lot of the satellite pictures in your role in covering national security matters. Are they going to be as clear cut? I mean, the U-2 pictures that we saw during the Cuban missile crisis, there was no question what we were looking at. We were looking at missiles, and we knew their range. They only had to go 90 miles. Is it going to be that clear this time?
ENSOR: I think the problem is that it is not, Aaron. The people I've talked to who have seen some of the pictures say we've got pictures of facilities, we can tell you that chemical weapons were made inside them. But it doesn't show that on the picture. The problem is the pictures are not as dramatic as they would like them to be. They're still working on this problem, though. They may come up with something.
BROWN: David, thank you. David Ensor, who covers national security for us, in Washington tonight.
On now to the question of allies. Today, Russia's president spoke with the president of the United States and said don't count on us yet. A coalition of the not so willing appears to have the upper hand for now. That could change with the inspectors' report in less than a week, and change again after the president's State of the Union speech the next day. But even if nothing changes, the administration is putting a brave face on it all. Again from the White House, CNN's Dana Bash.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BASH (voice-over): In the face of defiance from key allies, like Germany and France, the White House has a new line: "If you're with us, great. If not, others will be."
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: President Bush is confident that Europe will answer the call. It remains possible that France won't be on the line.
BASH: Administration officials say the U.S. military could topple Saddam Hussein alone. But with polls showing American public support for action drops without a coalition, the U.S. is now making the case that even if the U.N. doesn't approve, plenty of countries will be on board.
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: And I'm quite confident if it comes to that we'll be joined by many nations.
BASH: Who are those nations? Topping the list, Great Britain, preparing to send more than 30,000 troops. Tony Blair comes to Camp David next week to huddle with Mr. Bush. Other European nations who have signaled at least political support for a U.S.-led effort against Saddam Hussein, Spain, Italy, Poland, and the Czech Republic. Romania and Bulgaria are likely to allow U.S. use of their bases and ports.
And Australia this week deployed the first contingent of troops to prepare for an attack on Iraq. Some Arab nations, like Kuwait, Qatar, Amman, and Bahrain, are already allowing logistical support. Turkey and Saudi Arabia have not yet committed, but U.S. officials are optimistic they will.
Two key U.N. nations, China and Russia, have not been as firmly opposed to war as France and Germany, but have not warmed to it either. Mr. Bush phoned Russian President Vladimir Putin to discuss Iraq Thursday morning. Some experts warn moving without some key allies could have long-term diplomatic consequences.
GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: If the resolution doesn't go through the right way and the United States has to go in without a U.N. resolution, we'll still have allies. We won't have the same weight of legitimacy in our actions. And there will be consequences to be paid downstream.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: Now Aaron, Bush officials admit that it will be difficult to do things outside of any kind of attack against Iraq down the road, like trying to rebuild Iraq without a broad coalition of support. And some analysts say there could be other consequences, like some kind of risk to the overall war on terrorism. That is something that some analysts and some experts really do worry about with this.
BROWN: Just quickly, Dana, do we know are there any inducements being offered to any of these willing allies at all?
BASH: Behind the scenes, you never know exactly what's going on. But what the administration is hoping is that the more they make the case, the more they make it clear that they're going to do this, that countries around the world will look at the U.S. and say -- you know, worry if they're going to be with them or we're going to be kind of left in the dust, so we better get with them. But the U.S. is also making it clear -- even responding to comments like what you mentioned earlier from Russia -- that they are -- they don't know how they're going to deal with this, and it really depends on what happens on Monday when the inspectors' report is due at the U.N. They're going to try to figure out how to proceed from there.
BROWN: Dana, thank you. Dana Bash at the White House tonight.
When the full history of this confrontation with Iraq is written -- and it has a long way to go -- it's a good chance it will -- that Colin Powell had his doubts about the wisdom of going to war with the support from only a narrow coalition of allies. The secretary of state has always counseled against rushing into things, and a temperament like that does not change overnight.
So what to make of Mr. Powell's emergence lately as the administration's chief salesman on Iraq. From the State Department tonight, CNN's Andrea Koppel.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
POWELL: In the absence of cooperation, the inspectors will not find anything...
KOPPEL (voice-over): It's now a familiar refrain from an unlikely messenger. Once described as the lone dove among hawks, for months, Secretary of State Powell, who has been the Bush administration's most ardent advocate of giving Iraq's president Saddam Hussein one last chance to disarm.
POWELL: We have to see whether or not Iraq will cooperate and permit the inspectors to do their job.
KOPPEL: It was Powell who pushed President Bush last fall to seek another U.N. resolution demanding Iraq allow weapons inspectors to return.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Saddam has perfected the game of cheat and retreat.
KOPPEL: Vice President Cheney, on the other hand, fought a losing battle last August, when he argued inspections would be a waste of time.
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There is a great danger that it would provide false comfort that Saddam was somehow back in his box.
KOPPEL: A position Powell now supports. The question isn't how much longer do you need for inspections to work, Powell told journalists this week, inspections will not work. Analysts say tougher talk, especially when it comes from Powell, sends a powerful message.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you want to convince the world, if you want to convince the American people, if you want to convince Saddam Hussein that it is time for the United States act, that war is now rather than later, you have to make the case. And Colin Powell is now making that case as well as anybody else in this administration.
KOPPEL: Twelve years ago, when Powell was chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, the now retired four-star general was also initially reluctant to go to war against Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KOPPEL: Even now, Powell aides defend the secretary's preference for going the diplomatic rather than the military route. And despite a growing riff between the United States and some of its key allies on the Security Council, Secretary Powell still believes that his decision and the president's decision to go the U.N. route back in November rather than taking unilateral military action, Aaron, was the best choice.
BROWN: What happened in a sense? I mean what happened to the argument of last fall that inspections will work or might work or could work, that we're now at the point where the secretary says they will not work?
KOPPEL: Well, the secretary likes to say that it's not just the last two months of inspections, but really the last 12 years of Saddam Hussein failing to comply with U.N. resolutions. It's difficult to say, Aaron. I speak with people who know the secretary's thinking, and just two weeks ago I was told that the line that the secretary was pushing is you've got to give inspectors more time. It's working. Containment is working.
Then, just a couple of days ago, the line shifted suddenly and I asked why. And they said, "Well, the big guy" -- and I said, "Who's the big guy?" They said, "The president has pretty much made up his mind. He's very, very close. And Secretary Powell, as you know, is the good soldier, and he follows orders."
BROWN: Andrea, thank you. Andrea Koppel at the State Department tonight.
One more on Iraq, and it's in Iraq. We say this each time we go there. We have no real way of knowing what the average Iraqi is thinking. We do know, however, what a lot of average Iraqis are doing today and have been doing now all week long. CNN's Nic Robertson is in Baghdad for us tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Treading a now familiar path, thousands of protesters poured on to the streets of Baghdad in the current support of President Saddam Hussein. The almost daily demonstrations played back on Iraqi TV, hinting the leadership here is preparing the country for war.
Indications we enforced by President Saddam Hussein's frequent televised appearances with top officials discussing readiness for war. Despite the apparent hardening of the mood and indications of growing intolerance by Iraqis towards the U.N. inspection mission, U.N. experts visited several sites, including conducting a previously contentious helicopter mission into northern Iraq.
Iraqi officials, however, renewed accusations that inspectors the U.N. says were making an off-duty visit to a mosque were in fact inspecting it.
GEN. HUSSAM AMIN, IRAQI NATIONAL MONITORING DIRECTORATE: It is intended inspections visits without the presence of national monitoring directorate staff.
ROBERTSON: At the U.N. Security Council next week Amin says he expects Iraq to get only mediocre marks on the inspection report. And that despite Iraq's best efforts, the key U.N. demand of private interviews with Iraqi scientists has not yet been fully resolved.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did our best to push the scientists and send them to the site. But they refused to make such interviews without the presence of national monitoring directorate (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
ROBERTSON (on camera): Iraq's newspapers are still defiant in the face of possible war. One owned by the president's son warns the United States that the blood lost on September 11 could be, in their words, "like a picnic in comparison to the blood lost during an invasion of Iraq."
Nic Robertson, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight: more on the sales job the administration has to do with Iraq. We'll talk with former Senate Majority Leader George Mitchell about what he thinks still needs to be done.
And later tonight, protecting America from terrorists. At least that's what some people in Arizona say they are trying to do. Others, however, are not so sure. Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Back to making the case on Iraq at home and abroad. It is not a case that easily fits on a bumper sticker or a bullet (ph) chart. With us in Washington to talk about what lies ahead for the administration, former senator, former envoy, Senator George Mitchell. It's always good to see you, Senator. Nice to see you tonight, sir.
Let me start this way. Do you think in your gut, I guess -- do you feel in your gut -- that the president, in fact, that the administration, in fact, has already decided?
GEORGE MITCHELL, FMR. SENATE MAJORITY LEADER: Well, that's hard to know because, of course, the president and secretary of state and many others have said just the opposite. That they've not finally decided and they're keeping the option open. I just don't know -- in the end, I have to take the statements at face value.
BROWN: OK. If the president were to call you up and say, Senator, I seem to be having some trouble convincing enough people that war may be the only way to get this done. What ought I do? What would you tell him?
MITCHELL: Well, I think they're already doing what has to be done, and that's beginning an all-out effort to persuade Americans and others that the only way to disarm Iraq is by force. Your earlier section with David Ensor discussed the review of intelligence data to determine what can safely and prudently be declassified.
What you've had until now is a series of assertions with no evidence to support them. I think what's needed now is a combination of assertion and evidence, and I think that will occur. I think it will occur, to some extent, in the State of the Union address. And beyond that, by the president and other members of the administration.
BROWN: And do you think that will occur both at home and overseas?
MITCHELL: Well, of course the president's speech is going to be watched everywhere by a lot of people around the world, not just Americans. And the statements by Secretary Powell and others are followed carefully around the world. I think it will be a combined effort, but I don't think the audiences can be neatly categorized, because statements made here by the appropriate officials are heard elsewhere as well.
BROWN: Well, right. But I guess I would -- the question really goes to whether they are heard differently. Americans tend to look at their president differently than Italians might look at the president of the United States or Spaniards might look at the president of the United States. Americans, by and large, want to believe their president. That's not necessarily true overseas.
MITCHELL: Oh, I don't think Americans are all that different in their view of their political leaders and people in other countries. It depends upon the leader, of course. And many American president who are disbelieved by a vast majority of American citizens. So I think that the real issue is whether they're going to continue through the U.N. process.
The threshold decision, really, in effect, crossing the Rubicon occurred last fall, when the president made the internal decision to go to the United Nations. I think it would be very difficult now to abruptly simply not fulfill that process. And there's one other point, Aaron, that I think ought to be made. Much of the discussion is based upon what I believe to be a false premise. That the choice is between going to war or going through the U.N.
I don't think going through the U.N. means that there won't be a war. It means that you have to follow a process which could conceivably, and some would argue likely, will lead to conflict. But only after certain circumstances occur and certain events take place. I hope that the president continues through the U.N. with his team, because I think obviously not so much for the military support -- we really don't need any military help in this effort -- but for political, diplomatic and a variety of other reasons, it would be better to have a broadly-based international coalition buttressed and strengthened by a U.N. effort.
BROWN: Do you think the president is going to have political problems at home if he does go it alone in (UNINTELLIGIBLE)? That is to say, without the stamp of the U.N. on it?
MITCHELL: Not immediately. I think the reality is that once the fighting starts and once American men and women are engaged in combat, the American people will overwhelmingly support the commander in chief and the American troops irrespective of the circumstances. Now obviously the polls are quite clear that support for unilateral action or with just Britain, say, is much lower here and abroad. But the significant thing about U.N. action is, Aaron, how dramatically public opinion changes both in the United States and particularly in Europe, and in the Middle East as well, and most of the Arab countries, once U.N. action is involved.
BROWN: Well Senator, I think certainly in the weeks ahead, if not the days ahead, we're going to know the answer. It's good to talk to you. Thanks again for your wisdom tonight, Senator George Mitchell from Washington.
MITCHELL: Thank you, Aaron.
BROWN: Still ahead on the program tonight: protecting the United States. But from what exactly? We'll meet some people patrolling the U.S.-Mexico border on the lookout, they say, for terrorists. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: As we told you last night, Tom Ridge was confirmed as the first homeland security chief. And as you probably heard more than a few times, there are 22 different agencies involved in protecting the country from terror.
Well that number is not exactly right. There are 23. Except you wouldn't call this an agency, exactly. Try posse.
And they don't answer to Tom Ridge or anyone else, for that matter. They see themselves as the guys in the white hats on the hunt for possible terrorists along the Mexican border. Critics say they are vigilantes who should take their guns and go home.
Here's CNN's Jason Bellini.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Caravanning (ph) through the dusty Arizona desert, a modern day Wild West citizens posse heads for the border with Mexico. A militia of former military members who are ranchers, retirees and concerned Americans, self- deputized to help secure the U.S. border. Something they say the U.S. Border Patrol fails to do on its own. Chris Simcox is their leader.
CHRIS SIMCOX, MILITIA LEADER: If anyone wanted to attack America, boy do they have a perfect opportunity right now.
BELLINI: Which means that that leaves it up to the citizens. So they prowl the desert, mostly on weekends.
(on camera): This is not the first group to converge on the U.S. border with Mexico to try to stop illegal entry. But the name Chris Simcox has given to his group civil homeland defense. Suggests an objective that is different: stopping terrorists from entering the United States.
(voice-over): Terrorists, they imagine, sneaking into the U.S. with...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A bag of anthrax.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just come here, by little briefcase and my smallpox and walk right into the United States.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's it.
SIMCOX: So we've made this report back.
BELLINI: Simcox has based his operation from the office of a small newspaper he purchased a year ago, "The Tombstone Tumbleweed," which he uses to spread his message.
SIMCOX: In spite of the president's homeland defense initiatives, we have not done anything realistic about protecting our borders.
BELLINI: His followers...
SIMCOX: On down to the river.
BELLINI: ... numbering on this day around 20, are responding to the president's appeal for Americans to be vigilant and providing what they call their service to America.
But critics, like Isabel Garcia, a lawyer with the immigrant support organization Derechos Humanos, call it something else.
ISABEL GARCIA, DERECHOS HUMANOS: They are vigilantes. They're taking the law into their own hands. And so we don't buy in or believe their claims that somehow they're making us safer.
SIMCOX: Back in August, we came across a group that we know were speaking Arabic.
BELLINI: Simcox's group says they're not vigilantes and their policy is to contact the Border Patrol rather than confront.
The Border Patrol won't comment on the group specifically, but says the job is best left to the government.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would comment, but I can't.
BELLINI: The Border Patrol says immigration as a whole is down and it's not aware of any Middle Easterners illegally entering the U.S. from Mexico. Simcox insists his group doesn't plan to use force.
SIMCOX: They now know that this area is being patrolled.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If any of them get through, that's too many.
BELLINI: But he doesn't mind it if those on the other side fear them.
Jason Bellini, CNN, on the U.S.-Mexico border.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: A few more stories from around the country, beginning in Louisiana at the hearing for two American airmen involved in a friendly fire incident last spring in Afghanistan. You'll recall four Canadians died, eight more wounded when one of the pilots mistakenly dropped a 500-pound bomb on them. Today, the defense had an F-16 flown in, so the officer in charge of the hearing could get a firsthand look at the type of plane involved and the complexity the pilots were dealing with that day. The defense wrapped up with statements from the two airmen defending their actions, but also expressing anguish and regret for the loss of innocent life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARLEY LEGER, WIDOW: I would just like to say to Major Umbach and Major Schmidt, thank you. And I appreciate your apologies and they are accepted. Major Umbach touched me very deeply. And it was very much appreciated and very much needed. So, thank you for that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Defense and prosecution still have final papers to submit, closing arguments to make. Then a hearing officer will decide whether to recommend the men be court-martialed.
The signs say billions served. The company today said $344 million lost. Mark this day in business history, the first ever quarterly loss for McDonald's. The company also announced the closing of about 700 restaurants, including about 200 here in the United States.
Nell Carter died today, an old-fashioned performer, the star of screen and stage and nightclub cabaret, short in stature, huge in presence. Oh, man, could she sing. Nell Carter was just 54.
Still to come on NEWSNIGHT: Are some gay men trying to get HIV? We'll talk with the editor of "Rolling Stone" magazine about a controversial article in his current issue and challenges to that article.
And we'll also head south to enjoy the cold, their news from the deep freeze -- as NEWSNIGHT continues from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: And next on NEWSNIGHT: a controversial story in "Rolling Stone" magazine. Are some gay men trying to get AIDS?
This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: A quick look now at some other stories around the world tonight: first to Kuwait, where a man was arrested for killing one American, seriously wounding another. The man has confessed to the crime, according to Kuwaiti authorities. The suspect ambushed the two American civilians outside the U.S. military camp in Kuwait on Tuesday.
The latest on the ongoing strike in Venezuela: Hundreds of thousands of people from across the country crowded together today to show support for the president, Hugo Chavez. Late this afternoon, a pipe bomb exploded near the plaza where the demonstration took place. Two people died. At least three others were wounded.
And a fascinating discovery in China: a fossil creature that scientists say is a small dinosaur. The creature provides a new link to the origin of birds and their ability to fly.
A story about a story tonight -- sometimes, these can be a bit tedious. We don't think this is one of them. It begins with a truly startling premise found in the pages of "Rolling Stone" magazine, an article arguing that there's an alarming trend among gay men who actively want to get HIV. They are said to be chasing the bug.
"Newsweek" magazine has also looked into the story and says that "Rolling Stone"'s claims are wildly exaggerated, that sources are taken out of context and misrepresented entirely.
Joining us now to defend and discuss the reporting, Ed Needham, who is the managing editor of "Rolling Stone"; and from "Newsweek" magazine, writer Seth Mnookin.
Good to see you both.
Ed, lay out, as quickly as you comfortably can, the basic thrust of the article.
ED NEEDHAM, MANAGING EDITOR, "ROLLING STONE": Sure.
This is a small and unrepresentative, but nevertheless extraordinary group of gay men who, for a number of different reasons, have decided that they would actively like to become HIV-positive.
BROWN: The number that appears in the magazine is up to or as much as 25 percent, one in four.
NEEDHAM: This is the rather inaccurate and misleading story that...
BROWN: That number is not the...
NEEDHAM: ... that "Newsweek" has chosen to report.
If you look at our story carefully, I think you'll see that our source claims that up to 25 percent of men may be in denial about their motives for having unprotected sex with people who they know to be HIV-positive. The "Rolling Stone" story claims that this is a tiny, minute, but nevertheless remarkable group of men. "Newsweek" has seen to fit to claim, to take this percentage
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: I want to turn to Seth in a second.
But you really think that the reader comes away from the "Rolling Stone" piece with a sense that it is a small, minute group of men?
NEEDHAM: Yes. We state that in the story.
BROWN: OK.
All right, tell me, Seth, what your reporting has found. And we'll go from there.
SETH MNOOKIN, "NEWSWEEK": I'll just read.
The "Rolling Stone" article quotes a doctor. And it says, "He estimates that at least 25 percent of all newly infected gay men fall into that category of people who are trying to get infected." First of all, the doctor said he didn't say that. He said that he told the "Rolling Stone" fact-checker he didn't say that.
And I think what that does is, it creates an impression that there's an enormous trend out there and it takes attention away from the real story, which is that there is a very small part of the gay population for which this is an issue.
BROWN: And this is -- no one actually disputes that part. I think this has been out there for some time that, for whatever reasons, there are some gay men who are trying -- I mean, it sounds crazy to say it, but are trying.
MNOOKIN: And even more problematic is the fact that there's this sense, especially among a younger generation, that HIV is something that's treatable. The "Rolling Stone" article quotes them as saying it's like diabetes. And so you have more and more people having unprotected sex.
And one thing I think the article does is conflate having unprotected sex with trying to get HIV. But, really, all we focused on, all "Newsweek" focused on was the fact that there are two medical doctors who are quoted about this. Both of those doctors say that either of their quotes were entirely fabricated or else they were taken completely out of context. And they said they told the fact- checkers that.
BROWN: That is clearly the most serious charge here.
NEEDHAM: Absolutely.
We've gone through the writer's notes and we've gone through the fact-checkers' notes. And both doctors that we spoke to confirmed, both, to the fact-checkers, that that's what they said. What Mr. Mnookin has a problem with is that the facts that he gave to the doctors to confirm were inaccurate. And so, naturally, they would deny that they said that, because they didn't say what "Newsweek" claims they said.
BROWN: I'm sorry. Did you read them the quotes?
MNOOKIN: All I did was read them what was in the article. I also faxed them the articles in their entirety. So, there's nothing that could have been taken out of context. I didn't summarize it in my own words. BROWN: Ed, I think, in that regard, it's your serve. He's said he just sent them the quotes.
MNOOKIN: Well, this is a rigorously researched story. It's a rigorously fact-checked story.
BROWN: Do you think your sources got either cold feet or pressured from gay activist groups or, obviously, and AIDS activist groups who are not thrilled with the story?
NEEDHAM: I don't know what their motives might be for saying something different to us as they did to Mr. Mnookin. You would have to ask them that.
BROWN: You don't have a gut feeling one way or another?
Was there pressure brought to bear either on the reporter or on the magazine not to run the story? Let's try it that way.
NEEDHAM: Absolutely not. No, I think this is an extraordinary story and worth reporting. I think...
BROWN: No group came to you or to the reporter and said, first of all, we think you're wrong, and, secondly, this is a killer story if you put this out there, because this will be seized by anti-gay groups and we're going to get clobbered? No one said that?
NEEDHAM: No, this is a true story and we have two case studies of men who happily cooperated and told us the full facts of their willingness to become HIV-positive. It's undeniably this
(CROSSTALK)
NEEDHAM: ... exists.
BROWN: Well, two is not 25 percent.
NEEDHAM: No. And we do not make claim that it's a trend or that it's 25 percent.
BROWN: Well, go ahead.
MNOOKIN: There's nothing I can do except point to what's in the article. There is a sentence that says up to 25 percent.
And it also -- it goes on to say, with about 40,000 new infections in the United States per year, according to government reports, that would mean about 10,000 each year attributable to this definition of people trying to get HIV. That's another conflation, because almost half of all infections now are heterosexual.
So, when I look at the figures in this story, I get the sense that there was an effort to sort of pump it up and make what is an alarming story, even if it's two people, turn it into something much greater and do this enormous trend story.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: There's "Newsweek"'s reporting and "Rolling Stone"'s reporting. And the best thing to do is read them both and figure out where you come down.
Thank you both for coming in tonight.
NEEDHAM: You're welcome.
MNOOKIN: Thank you for having us.
BROWN: Thank you very, very much.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT: It's very cold. It's really cold. In fact, it's snowing down South. We'll go to West Virginia, I think, to take a look at "Their News" after a break.
And later: the story of baby Hope and the cop who would not give up on the case.
This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: You know how cold it is? This isn't a joke. It's so cold that, in New York, even the rats are staying home, underground, to stay warm. No such luck for local reporters, where, these days, frostbite seems to be the occupational hazard.
A look now at "Their News" from station WAVY in Norfolk, Virginia.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the station on your side, this is WAVY News 10.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Snow, snow and more snow, anywhere from a light dusting on the Peninsula to nearly foot on the Outer Banks. The white stuff is everywhere and, with it, some of the coldest temperatures we've seen in a few years.
This afternoon, we barely got above 20 degrees. And, by tomorrow night, the frigid forecast is going to dip into the single digits. It's winter blast 2003 part two. We have crews all across the area tonight. Tracey Moynihan is live in Virginia Beach. Derek Wing traveled to Carteret County in North Carolina, where the snow was coming down. And Ava Hurdle is standing by live in the Outer Banks, the hardest-hit area by this winter storm.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And some parts of Virginia Beach saw up to 5 inches of snow.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: WAVY News 10 Tracey Moynihan continues our team coverage tonight with more on how the beach is dealing with the white stuff. TRACEY MOYNIHAN, WAVY REPORTER: Well, Carolyn, the white stuff has stopped falling. But I can tell you, the temperatures are continuing to fall. It is freezing out here, about 19 degrees. Let me show you about the amount of snow that we found out here, my trustee ruler.
Take a look right here, about 4 inches of snow out here at the ocean front.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Of course, we do continue our team coverage now with WAVY News 10's Ava Hurdle, who is live on the Outer Banks, one of the areas hardest-hit by the snowstorm.
AVA HURDLE, WAVY REPORTER: Alveta, I think I know what it feels like in a deep freezer right now.
We can tell you that, here on the Outer Banks, the snowstorm made this area come to a virtual standstill before the snowstorm ended in early afternoon.
Blowing, drifting, powdery snow blanketed the Outer Banks, closing businesses and schools, keeping most people indoors. But for those who did venture out, the going was slow.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is our first attempt. We just live right up there. So, it's pretty bad. Yes.
HURDLE: Why are you out?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've got to get -- a friend has got to get to work. So, we have got to get her back to her car. And then we have to get some food.
HURDLE: Other than that, you wouldn't be out here, huh?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No way. It's nasty.
HURDLE: Have you seen it like this before?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never down here, never.
HURDLE: Officials figure the area received between 5 to 10 inches of snow.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, as you can see, the Outer Banks wasn't the only area in North Carolina hit hard by all that snow.
WAVY News 10's Derek Wing continues our team coverage now from Carteret County, where people took advantage of the wintry weather -- Derek.
DEREK WING, WAVY REPORTER: A late Christmas present for the people of Carteret County. They woke up this morning to a blizzard, with snow covering the roads and canceling school and work. So, many decided to take advantage of it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is probably the most I've seen in a while, I reckon. But it's a good thing. That's for sure.
WING: Now, what may not be a good thing is that the temperatures are expected to stay pretty low for the next couple of days. And that means that the snow on roads like this is not expected to disappear any time soon. And that could mean some hazardous driving conditions for motorists.
In Carteret County, North Carolina, Derek Wing, WAVY News 10.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: "Their News" from Virginia tonight.
Next on NEWSNIGHT: segment seven, one police officer's 12-year quest for justice for a tiny unknown victim.
A short break -- right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It's a heartbreaking thing to say: a wake held tonight for a 7-year-old boy, even more painful considering how that boy lived and, of course, how he died. The wake was for Faheem Williams, one of those lost boys of Newark, New Jersey. More than 200 people turned out, including the boy's mother. His brothers are still in the hospital recovering from starvation and abuse. Faheem's funeral will be held tomorrow.
The memorial tonight reminds us of a word and the story of another child who never got a chance to grow up. The word is obsession. We normally think of obsession as a bad thing, as something to conquer before it consumes us. We're told all the time to give it a rest or let it go, to just move on. That's the word.
This story, though, is of a cop who wouldn't let it go, who hasn't moved on and, even though he's no longer a cop, won't give it a rest. His obsession is with a girl with no name and her killer. In that light, we can think of a better word than obsession: devotion.
Here's CNN's Beth Nissen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In a story full of terrible details, one stood out. The 7-year-old boy found dead in that Newark basement had been stuffed into a plastic storage bin.
For police across the river in New York City, that image recalled this one: a plastic picnic cooler found at the site of a Manhattan highway in 1991. Stuffed inside it was the body of a malnourished 4- or 5-year-old girl, naked, bound, abused, suffocated.
RET. DET. JERRY GIORGIO, NEW YORK POLICE DEPARTMENT: It was a horrible sight. People say, with time, memory fades. I can close my eyes and I could picture it today as vividly as I did that day. It was a horrible sight. NISSEN: Veteran NYPD Detective Jerry Giorgio says no case affects cops, even the most veteran, most hardened ones, like the abuse and death of a child.
GIORGIO: Most of us are parents, or grandparents, in my particular case. And it really hits very, very close to home.
NISSEN: Within hours of finding the small, unidentified body in the picnic cooler, detectives in NYPD's 34th Precinct had adopted her, had given her a name -- baby Hope. Forensic dentists and anthropologists helped give her a face, or at least a vague sketch of one.
GIORGIO: Unfortunately, this baby was so badly decomposed that you could not in any way make out her features.
NISSEN: For days, officers and detectives volunteered to work double shifts on the case.
GIORGIO: A case like this, nobody's looking at that clock.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There you go, ma'am. We're investigating a homicide.
GIORGIO: They'll go that extra mile.
NISSEN: Detectives had hundreds of calls, but no solid leads. Months passed, then a year, then two. Baby Hope's file was moved into the cold-case drawer. But Detective Giorgio couldn't forget Hope.
GIORGIO: The cardinal rule, don't get involved? I got involved. I became emotionally involved in the case.
NISSEN: Two years after they found her, Giorgio and his fellow detectives decided to remove baby Hope's unclaimed remains from the morgue and bury her as one of their own. At the funeral, Detective Giorgio and his wife, Catherine (ph), took the position reserved for next of kin.
GIORGIO: I took her as our own. She was our baby. I keep saying our baby, our squad, our baby.
NISSEN: Detectives from the 34th paid for the headstone, engraved with their shield, the only name they ever had for the girl, the only date they were sure of in her short life.
GIORGIO: The day that we found her, which was July 23, 1991.
NISSEN: It's been more than a decade. Detective Giorgio retired from the NYPD. He now works as an investigator for the New York DA's office. Yet he still has a desk at the 34th Precinct. He still has hope that the case will be solved.
GIORGIO: We worked on cases here that were 10, 15, 20 years gone by, past, and we've solved them. So I'm always optimistic.
I'll be back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, Jerry.
NISSEN: Giorgio still visits Hope's grave.
GIORGIO: I sometimes think of what she would be doing now, 11, 12 years later. She'd be a teenager, a junior in high school, dating and looking forward to her future. She's with me every day.
NISSEN: The detective still has Hope.
Beth Nissen, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: That's our report for tonight.
A reminder: If you have not, you can go to our Web site at CNN.com/NEWSNIGHT and sign up for the daily newsletter that we send out, the daily e-mail we send out. It will tell you about the program we are planning and a lot of really cool backstage NEWSNIGHT gossip -- well, not that much, but some.
We'll see you tomorrow at 10:00 Eastern. Until then, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.
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Interview With George Mitchell>
