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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Did NASA Miss Something Big?

Aired February 03, 2003 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, HOST: And good evening again, everyone. As Larry said, we're coming to you again tonight from the Johnson Space Center in Houston.
It occurred to us today that many, if not most, young people -- the ones born after Challenger -- couldn't give you the name of a single hero astronaut. But actually, that's not exactly true. Many, if not most, could tell you of the detailed exploits of Buzz Light Year, the delusional action figure from "Toy Story" who thinks he is a real hero, a real astronaut.

We think of Buzz when we realize the enormous challenges NASA is facing. Not the investigations, but that so-called vision thing. Selling the idea that space is exciting, that those going into space are still rugged explorers doing dangerous things and important work. Making sure that astronauts are thought of as heroes now for what they are doing, not just heroes when something bad happens.

So who needs convincing the most? You may think it's the money people in Washington, but we think that's not really it. We think it's the kids who need convincing.

Almost everyone in Congress now remembers the glory days of the space program. Twenty years from now, many won't, and neither will the people who vote for them. So what will it take to get kids to say on Halloween, "Daddy, I want to dress up as astronaut Michael Anderson, or Laurel Clark, or Rick Husband, or work someone working here at the Johnson Space Center right now tonight? Real heroes, rather than pretend heroes like Buzz Light Year.

Not an easy task, but the future for the program seems to be demanding nothing less. It's worth noting too that Buzz seems to know he needs to keep his young owner interested, needs to stay in the coolest toy around category. He knows his survival in the toy chest depends on it.

Buzz gets it. Hopefully NASA and the country will as well. But of course, the most pressing question in the short term is what went so wrong over the weekend? And we begin "The Whip" with the latest on the investigation and CNN's Miles O'Brien.

Miles, a headline from you tonight.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN SPACE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, NASA told us a little bit more about the final minutes of Columbia's fiery descent, and they also told us they aren't ruling anything out. But they're also operating on one assumption as well, that possibly some debris which fell off that external fuel tank on launch might have caused some serious damage to those insulating tiles.

BROWN: Miles, thank you. Back to you at the top tonight.

The president's budget was released today. And who would have expected that funding for NASA would get all the attention tonight? Senior White House correspondent John King has that.

John, the headline.

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, that budget was off the printing press well before Saturday's tragedy. Already Mr. Bush was calling for a modest increase in the space shuttle program. Most of that money to go to extending the life of the aging fleet. The big question tonight at the White House, will Columbia be replaced? The White House says the president cannot and will not answer that question until that investigation is complete -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you.

The search goes on for every small police of Columbia that fell to the ground and some large pieces found as well. David Mattingly working that for us.

David, a headline from you.

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hundreds of calls came in again today here in east Texas from people finding pieces of the space shuttle, but authorities say they're still missing some very important parts that they would love to get their hands on. Also, a warning tonight that some explosive material may have hit the ground here -- Aaron.

BROWN: David, thank you.

And a quick turn to a very different sort of story tonight, the arrest of a music industry legend. Paul Vercammen, is on that from Los Angeles.

Paul, a headline from you.

PAUL VERCAMMEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, very different indeed. They might as well crank up the calliope music. A media event here as Phil Spector is arrested on suspicion of murder after a woman is found shot to death in his estate -- Aaron.

BROWN: Paul, thank you. Back to you and all the rest shortly.

Also coming up tonight on NEWSNIGHT, some terrific guests to go at the Columbia story, the tragedy from a number of different angles. Congressman Sherwood Boehlert, who heads the House Science Committee, a committee that will look into the disaster. Easily one of the most respected journalists out there covering the space program and its history, Jeffrey Kluger, who has written the lead story this week in "TIME" magazine, "What Went Wrong." And one of the greats of broadcast news. We'll talk later in the hour to Bob Schieffer about Columbia, the presidency and his life as a journalist.

All of that in a very busy hour ahead from Houston tonight. But we begin with the investigation, and we continue to be struck by a couple of different things. First, NASA's effort to stay out in front and quickly share each new development as it comes along. And the second is how quickly things are unfolding or at least seem to be unfolding.

Columbia's nose cone was located today. It was discovered in Sabine County, where so much of the debris has fallen. How that fits into the larger picture we don't yet know. But tonight a working theory is taking shape. And if true, Columbia may have been doomed a little more than a minute into its flight. We begin tonight again with CNN's Miles O'Brien.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN (voice-over): Today, an even closer look at the area of Columbia drawing most attention, as debris flies off the external fuel tank and strikes the underside of the left wing during the launch on January 16. Shuttle program manager Ron Dittemore.

RON DITTEMORE, SHUTTLE PROGRAM MANAGER: We're making the assumption from the start that the external tank was the root cause of the problem that lost Columbia. And that's a fairly drastic assumption and it's sobering.

O'BRIEN: Also today, home video possibly showing debris flying off the shuttle much farther west over San Francisco. NASA says data shows that temperatures on the shuttle were rising even before the shuttle reached the coast.

DITTEMORE: If we can get our hands on that piece of debris that really helps us indicate where the genesis of the problem is, that would be very important if we find a piece of tile. Each tile is individually coded. And if we find that tile and can decipher the code, we'll know exactly where it came from on the wing. And that's the missing link that we're trying to find.

O'BRIEN: NASA clearly was concerned enough about the launch debris strike to study the problem, producing a memo estimating the size of any possible damage and concluding it would likely cause no burn-through and no safety of flight issue. A point echoed by flight director Leroy Cain during a briefing the day before landing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leroy, could you just review what the minor damage is to the tile on the left wing?

LEROY CAIN, FLIGHT DIRECTOR: I believe at this time we can't say with great detail the degree of the damage other than all of the analysis suggests that it would be very minor in terms of the amount of tile that might actually be missing or had been removed would be very minor. All of the analysis says that we have plenty of margin in those areas in that regard. But I can tell you we think it's going to be very small.

O'BRIEN: Now of course there's a lot of second guessing about that engineering analysis, and it will be redone. But shuttle program manager Ron Dittemore says he heard no reservations prior to Columbia's fiery descent.

DITTEMORE: I am aware here two days later that there had been some reservations expressed by certain individuals. And it goes back in time. And so we're reviewing those reservations again as part of our database. They weren't part of our play book at the time because they didn't surface, they didn't come forward.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: So the question tonight, Aaron, did they miss something big? A couple of other odds and ends that came out, among other things, that 32-second piece of data which they were talking about yesterday that might have been recoverable, they're not quite as optimistic tonight that they can get anything useful out of it.

BROWN: Because?

O'BRIEN: Well, it's raty. That's the term they use. It's just sporadic stuff. It was when a vehicle was breaking up and things were coming down in an intermittent fashion. Of course, this is the best and brightest here. If anybody can get that data out of those ones and zeros out of those computers, they can.

BROWN: Let's go back to the problems on the launch. If they had studied it even more carefully, if they had identified the seriousness of the problem, would it have changed, could it have changed the outcome?

O'BRIEN: Well, there is one scenario that came out in that briefing today which is worth talking about. If they had absolutely definitive, conclusive proof that they had so many tiles taken off the bottom of Columbia that they knew the outcome, they knew they were going to lose the vehicle and crew on descent, they might have come up with a way of bringing the orbiter in in a way that stressed one wing more than the other. In other words, kept the wing that was damaged cooler and made the other one hotter.

Now what that would do, that wouldn't get you to the landing site. That would lead you to an orbiter that would fail. But it could have gotten the crew down to a point where they could have bailed out. But you certainly would not have made that decision unless you knew for sure that was going to happen.

BROWN: Miles, thank you. You'll be joining us tomorrow for the memorial service. The president will be here for that. Sad day. It is. And a long weekend. Thank you, Miles O'Brien.

On to the White House next. The president sent his budget up to Congress today. $2.25 trillion the budget is. It also includes a record deficit, more money for defense and homeland security, as you would expect. That's part of the reason. On any other day, the story and the details of the budget would be the lead, we suspect. Tonight, however, we focus on what the budget and what the president have to say about NASA. Here again, our senior White House correspondent, John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): At the National Institutes of Health, a tribute to Columbia's crew and its work.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Two days ago America was yet reminded again of the sacrifices made in the name of scientific discovery. The seven brave men and women from the Columbia will be remembered for their achievements, their heroism and their sense of wonder.

KING: Mr. Bush met earlier at the White House with NASA administrator Sean O'Keefe, receiving an update on the early phases of the investigation. The new Bush administration budget prepared before the Columbia tragedy complains about NASA management, saying there is no clear measurable relationship between investments in the space shuttle and improvements in the shuttle's operational life, flight safety, or facilities conditions.

The investigative arm of Congress also has warned about job cutbacks and other problems in the shuttle program. But official says there is no evidence tight budgets or management problems had any role in Saturday's tragedy.

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: It would be premature and unwise to make any judgments about that at this time.

KING: The new Bush budget proposes $15.5 billion for NASA, up from $15 billion this year. By comparison, Mr. Bush proposes $24 billion on the new Department of Homeland Security and $380 billion on the Pentagon. Spending on the space shuttle program was $3.3 billion in fiscal 2002 and fell a bit to $3.2 billion this year. But for fiscal 2004, the president proposes a 24 percent increase, up to $3.9 billion.

Most of that new money would be for work that extends the life of the aging shuttle fleet, because tight NASA budgets have delayed work on a next generation orbiter. Aides say Mr. Bush is committed to manned space mission but won't commit to seeking more money to replace Columbia until the investigation is complete.

FLEISCHER: Let's find out what the cause of the accident was before reaching conclusions about what the next course in space exploration should be.

KING: The president heads to Houston Tuesday for a memorial services.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: And aides say at that service the president's priority is on paying tribute to the lost astronauts and trying to bring some comfort to their families. Mr. Bush also hoping to boost morale at the space agency by making clear his commitment to resuming manned flight. Aaron, here at the White House tonight they say they have not ruled out some sort of presidential commission to investigate this tragedy, but their clear preference is to rely on those several investigations already underway.

BROWN: Because?

KING: Because they believe another investigation would serve no purpose unless there are fundamental questions about the impartiality or the cooperation of NASA and someone (ph) else. They know Congress is going to look into this through several committees. You have NASA's internal investigation, plus the independent commission. The White House believes and hopes that that's enough.

BROWN: And just quickly on tomorrow, the president will meet as he has done in other instances in his term with the individual family members quietly or privately?

KING: Privately. While at the Johnson Space Center, he will spend some time with the family members we are told. Remember when he went to New York on the anniversary of September 11 he did so there as well. Something, as you noted last night, this president has been through before.

He will have public remarks at the memorial service. But for the president, his aides say, more important it is to spend some private time with those families.

BROWN: John, thank you. John King at the White House tonight on the president and the White House situation relative to the shuttle tragedy.

Back now to the investigation. NASA today expanding the search for debris, extending it westward. You heard in Miles O'Brien's report why that is so important in far west as California to find what had perhaps fallen earliest in the breakup. A second collection point has been set up now outside Fort Worth at (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Air force Base. But again the major focus was to the east, where the bulk of the debris fell.

Entire counties are checkerboards of yellow crime scene tape. It's hard not to be struck by their dual nature. Each one a piece of the puzzle, but also a memorial site unto itself. Here again, CNN's David Mattingly.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY (voice-over): It was a somber day off for the K through 12 Douglas school in Nacogdoches County. Students stayed away while the EPA directed teams collecting shuttle debris from the roof and the schoolyard.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're all deeply saddened all this happened. We wish we were not getting the notoriety. We wish the astronauts were back with their families.

MATTINGLY: Meanwhile, in town, it was a return to the work week. Just off Main Street, the shuttle fragment that stopped traffic over the weekend had been removed as well. In its place, a memorial of flowers, expressing sentiments of a town now forever linked to a national tragedy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is their sacred resting ground, just like we have sacred Indian grounds here. This is a sacred Columbia ground.

MATTINGLY: All the while, the grim task of searching escalates throughout east Texas, with patrols now from the air. And at the Sabine River lake, teams of divers hit the water, searching for a car- sized chunk of debris the fishermen say splashed down. But the same priorities continue, find the human remains. Fifteen sightings in Nacogdoches County alone now. Also, locate the computer components or circuitry that could yield important data. Some key pieces, according to authorities, shrouded in black rectangular boxes.

THOMAS KERSS, SHERIFF, NACOGDOCHES COUNTY: Unfortunately what we're having here is like much of the debris that's being broken apart or was broken apart during the disaster. So we're finding segments of the box, not an intact piece.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY: The sheriff also warning the public about the existence of some explosive bolts that may have hit the ground here. This part of a safety feature that allows the crew cabin to break away from the shuttle in the time of an emergency. It would not have been effective in this kind of disaster. So it's possible they may have hit the ground here. There are teams from the National Guard that are standing by just in case, Aaron, anybody finds those.

BROWN: David, thank you. David Mattingly, who has been working that part of the story.

One more element of the story here before we go to break. In Racine, Wisconsin this evening there was a memorial service for the mission specialist Laurel Salton Clark, who grew up in that Wisconsin town, went to church there, and is remembered there at least as much for the many accomplishments of her life -- and they were considerable -- as for her death.

Laurel Salton Clark conquered practically every element there is. Diving with Navy Seals and serving as a flight surgeon before venturing out into space. She was a mother, as well, of an 8-year-old son.

In an e-mail she sent home the day before she died, Laurel Clark told her friends and family, "I hope you can feel the positive energy that beamed to the whole planet as we guided over."

And again, our coverage of the memorial service here at the Johnson Space Center begins tomorrow afternoon at 12:30 Eastern Time. The president will be here. We'll be here, along with Judy Woodruff and Miles O'Brien. And if you can, we hope you'll join us as well.

Ahead on this special edition of NEWSNIGHT from Houston, we'll look at the lessons learned from the Challenger investigation and how they may impact this current investigation. And later we'll look at whether space has lost its luster for our children. From Houston, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: It's terrible to say, but there is a template for investigating disasters like this one. We have Challenger to look back on and to learn from. Back then, President Ronald Reagan called for an independent commission, 13 distinguished people from different backgrounds. It was known as the Rogers Commission for former Secretary of State William Rogers, who led the hearings.

They conducted 160 interviews, 35 investigative sessions, and pored through 63,000 documents and pictures. And one more number. They had 120 days to come up with the cause. It didn't take long to zero in on one single factor, the effect that cold weather that day had on the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) joints. Rarely in such a complex situation do you get the sort of gotcha moment. But this one, this investigation had it in a demonstration by the renowned physicist Richard Feynman.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD FEYNMAN, PHYSICIST: Well I took this stuff that I got out of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and I put it in ice water. And I discovered that when you put some pressure on it for a while and then undo it, it maintains, it doesn't stretch back, it stays the same dimension. In other words, for a few seconds at least, and more seconds than that, there's no resilience in this particular material when it's at a temperature of 32 degrees. I believe that has some significance for our problem.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: It had a lot of significance. We should add that President Bush himself has not called for a commission, as John King reported a few moments ago. Today in the editorial pages of "The New York Times," a suggestion that, given the success of the Rogers Commission, the president should at least consider it. The Rogers Commission had 120 days; we've had less than four. And we can't stress enough, despite how much information has come out, we stick with what we know and resist speculation.

We don't worry about that, where our next guest is concerned. Jeffrey Kluger has pieced together the facts we have now for this week's "TIME" magazine. He's also the co-author of the definitive account of Apollo 13, and that successful failure, as they call it, a book called "Lost Moon: The Perilous Voyage of Apollo 13." He joins us from New York. Good to have you with us tonight.

JEFFREY KLUGER, SR. WRITER, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Thanks for having me. BROWN: What's the most surprising piece of information that you've heard in the last couple of days?

KLUGER: I think the most surprising piece of information is one that we've heard a great deal, which is that we have, it seems, the smoking gun even before a commission convenes. It's a bit of good fortune in all this ill fortune that we've seen this piece of foam break off the external tank, that there's footage that accounts for it, and that all of the evidence so far is consistent without having done it, without having been responsible.

Now that said, there is some history for counterintuitive things causing problems. Nobody thought of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in 1986. When TWA Flight 800 exploded in 1996, nobody thought a center fuel tank explosion could be responsible for it. In fact, the thinking at the time was that, yes, it's possible, but it would be the first time in the history of commercial aviation that it happened, and yet it did happen.

So in this case, we shouldn't rush to judgment. But I think we should be grateful that we seem to have what could be the definitive agent responsible for this.

BROWN: I suspect, Jeffrey, that when a lot of us first heard of this, our first impulse -- it may have been fleeting -- but our first impulse was terrorism. You're someone who has covered this a long time. What was your first impulse?

KLUGER: My first impulse was aging shuttle fleet and statistical inevitability. Terrorism after September 11 occurred to everybody, of course, and it occurred to me as well. But the two possibilities, the two ways it could be done, either through a shoulder-launched missile or some bomb being slipped aboard the spacecraft were such long shots, that I was happy that it didn't merit serious attention. And even in the more sensationalistic elements in the media it hasn't gotten sincere attention.

I do think that the space shuttle has always been, while a magnificent piece of engineering, a very temperamental piece of engineering. I think risk analysis has always said that you would have accidents with this kind of vehicle in one in about every 100 flights. And also, keep in mind the vehicles are flying longer than they were intended to.

They were originally meant to fly 100 flights. But to do it in just a handful of years. Columbia's been around for 22 years and was only flown 28 times. A lot of fatigue gets built up in a spacecraft over that period of time, and it's not surprising that another one, especially the oldest one, has now been claimed by an accident.

BROWN: And weigh in on -- because it's one of those things that in these moments everyone talks about, everyone here, everyone in Congress, everyone says corners weren't cut where safety was concerned. But was there some corner cutting to make budget or at least delaying upgrades, when upgrades were called for? KLUGER: I think it's possible that there was some delaying of upgrades, but for all the hits NASA has taken, some deserved, some not so deserved over the years, the kind of attention -- I've been in the orbiter processing facility in Florida and I've seen the kind of meticulous attention that's paid to maintaining these spacecrafts.

I've seen the heat lamps trained on one tile at a time until they've properly (UNINTELLIGIBLE), until they've properly enamelized (ph) onto the surface of the spacecraft. And I think that NASA has done the very best it can within the budgetary limitations it's had. There has always been friction between engineering and politics with this craft.

The shuttle when first conceived was supposed to be a single- staged orbit craft. There would have been no solid boosters, there would have been no external tank. Without solid boosters, we never would have had Challenger. So I think NASA has come up against the hard realities of money, but I believe at least in terms of safety, it's done the very best it could within those limitations.

BROWN: Jeffrey, thanks for your expertise and your time tonight. We appreciate it very much. Thank you.

KLUGER: Thank you for having me.

BROWN: And we continue looking at the shuttle Columbia story from here in Houston as the hour goes on. But after the break we'll check on some of the other stories that made news today, including the murder arrest of famous record producer Phil Spector. From Houston, Texas, this is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Don't adjust your sets. This is not the "E True Hollywood Story." But it certainly has plenty of the elements for that. Phil Spector, a pioneer in the music business during the '60s, arrested today on suspicion of murder. The victim, a young woman in her 20s. The crime scene, his home, which could double for some strange castle. It even has a supporting cast member from that grand daddy of all true Hollywood stories. You had to guess? The O.J. case, of course. How soon we forget. Here's CNN's Paul Vercammen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VERCAMMEN (voice-over): Music mogul Phil Spector, the behind- the-scenes recording studio whiz, finds himself front and center in an unfolding spectacle.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has been arrested and he is booked for murder.

VERCAMMEN: Authorities say, shortly after 5:00 this morning, they received a call reporting someone had been shot at Spector's hilltop estate. Spector was later arrested at his mansion in connection with the shooting death of a female in her 20s, Spector's black sedan, driver side's door wide open, is also part of the investigation.

Robert Shapiro, Spector's longtime lawyer and former O.J. Simpson attorney, spent much of the day at the Alhambra city jail with his client, Spector.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, 1989)

TINA TURNER, SINGER: I'm glad to say that the Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame welcomes Phil Spector.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VERCAMMEN: The Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame member is one of the best-known producers in pop music history, working with the Righteous Brothers, Ike and Tina Turner and the Beatles on "Let It Be." Spector cranked out countless '60s hits, including the Crystals' "Da Doo Ron Ron."

Spector helped launch the careers of the Ronettes and Ronnie Bennett, seen here on "Hollywood A Go-Go." The couple married in 1968 and divorced six years later. Spector's current residence, a testament to his success and riches, is now a crime scene. Some neighbors say noises from the direction of Spector's estate this morning woke them up.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was asleep and then suddenly -- it was about 5:20, 5:25 morning -- when I heard the boom, boom, boom. It was about three or for shots.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VERCAMMEN: And now back here live in Alhambra.

We understand that Phil Spector has just posted bail. He is out of jail. Apparently he and his lawyer, Robert Shapiro, slipped out a side or a back door. They have no comment. One thing for certain: Spector won't be returning to this estate soon. This is a sealed-off crime scene. And sheriff's deputies say he will not be allowed to return to this crime scene for some time now -- Aaron.

BROWN: So, he made bail on a murder charge. That's unusual in Los Angeles. Do we know anything about the victim, anything about the circumstances, or at least the circumstances as police believe them to be?

VERCAMMEN: Well, police are being very tight-lipped. And they are not saying much at all about this victim.

If you look at these circumstances, they say that this call was placed from either inside this estate or on the estate property. And it remains to be seen just what the link is with the car. As we said before, it was just outside this front gate here, with the door suspiciously wide open.

So, it could be assumed or presumed that either Spector made this 911 call or someone else, perhaps someone who works at the estate, made this call to the Alhambra Police Department. The Alhambra Police Department, by the way, is very small. And now jumping into the fray here is the L.A. County Sheriff's Office -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, thank you. And I suspect, at least by tomorrow, we'll know a bit more, at least about what the police think happened.

A few more stories now before we go to break, starting at sea and yet another outbreak of what appears to be the Norwalk virus: More than 250 passengers and crew aboard the Sun Princess have gotten ill this time since the ship set sail from Los Angeles. Most have already recovered. Norwalk isn't especially pleasant, of course, but the symptoms do quickly pass.

The Red Cross today expanded a blood quarantine from Georgia to cover the state of Tennessee as well. Testing is being done to figure out what the white particles are that keep showing up in bags of donated blood. They first showed up last night. The quarantine has forced an area hospital to curtail elective surgery. But emergency operations are still being done, other blood being used in those cases -- a great mystery, that.

And emergency rooms in New Jersey are bracing for trouble tonight. Doctors there have started staging a work slowdown in protest of the prices they have to pay for malpractice insurance. You may remember similar strikes and slowdowns have taken place in West Virginia, Pennsylvania and Florida and Nevada. It is a trend these days.

Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, we'll talk with Congressman Sherwood Boehlert, who chairs the House Science Committee that will investigate the shuttle disaster.

From Houston, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And next on NEWSNIGHT: Is it a question of money? We'll talk with a leading member of Congress who deals with NASA about the work ahead.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Back to the shuttle investigation -- we should make that investigations, plural -- three broad inquiries, with a number of others in the works or gearing up.

Representative Sherwood Boehlert's House committee has oversight responsibility for NASA. He's conducting one of those investigations. The congressman joins us tonight from Washington.

Nice to have you with us, sir.

I know you know, you've heard these questions before. But one of your colleagues, Jim Sensenbrenner of Wisconsin, said to us last night that he did think Congress bore some responsibility, at least in this regard, that the shuttle budget gets all mixed with the space station budget, and the space station budget has been a black hole. Do you agree with that, that at least the space station has been sucking money out of the program?

REP. SHERWOOD BOEHLERT (R), NEW YORK: Well, the space station has been over budget and it's taken a disproportionate share of the budget. But I don't think that's caused sacrificing with the shuttle program.

BROWN: You think they're just separate problems or separate situations?

(CROSSTALK)

BOEHLERT: I do indeed.

BROWN: OK.

Where do you go here? Obviously, there are a lot of facts to gather, but a lot of facts have come out. Do you get the feeling that you have a fairly decent idea of what might have happened?

BOEHLERT: Well, we're not going to jump to any conclusions, nor should we. And we are not going to rule out any options.

We had a meeting this afternoon with Administrator O'Keefe, the congressional leadership, and the leaders of the committees of jurisdiction. And he took us through, step by step, the procedure and where we're going from here. For our sake, the House Science Committee, we have on February 27 a hearing to begin the process of reauthorizing NASA's budget. But now, obviously, the scope of that is going to be expanded.

BROWN: Do you believe that this tragedy will require the country to think very hard about investing in a new upgraded vehicle if man space flight remains a priority?

BOEHLERT: Well, I think this investigation is going to prompt Americans to think long and hard about a lot of things.

But they should have no illusions. We're not going to have a quick answer, but we're going to continue the space program. It's critically important. It's so much more than the shuttle program.

BROWN: Well, it's one thing, of course, to consider the space program. It's another thing to consider the manned part of the space program, which is very expensive, because of all the redundancies and safety that has to be built in.

If we're going to continue manned space flights, should we be continuing it in the shuttle?

BOEHLERT: Well, that's one of the options we're going to look at. We're going to examine it very carefully, but only in light of a very thorough, very comprehensive investigation. We owe that to the families of the Columbia crew and we owe that to their memory. It's going to be a very thorough, very comprehensive investigation. But keep in mind, the space shuttle program, this is the first accident in the 42-year history of the overall space program on reentry. Unfortunately, we've just had one previous accident and that was the Challenger back in '86.

But the fact of the matter is, human space flight, which is something I support, has provided wonderful results, not just for the United States, but for all mankind. Whether or not we continue it is an open question, but I favor it and I think we will conclude that we should continue it.

BROWN: Congressman, that's a good note to leave on. We'll see how these hearings go. I think those of us who have grown up with the program are extraordinarily interested in what you all learn.

Thanks for joining us tonight.

BOEHLERT: Thank you, Aaron.

BROWN: And a couple more stories from around the world before we go to break here: With the two chief weapons inspectors heading back to Iraq, the Iraqi government says it will come away convinced -- or rather they, the weapons inspectors, will come away convinced that Iraq is cooperating. Hans Blix, Mohamed ElBaradei plan to arrive in Baghdad on Saturday. They are expected to push Iraq to allow U-2 overflights by Americans and to permit inspectors to privately interview Iraqi scientists. These are issues that have been there for a while now.

Meantime, in Baghdad, more preparations for war: Saddam Hussein and son met today with commanders of the Jerusalem Army, a volunteer force Saddam created early in the Palestinian uprising. The commanders told their president, not surprisingly, they're prepared to fight street by street, house by house, to defeat any American invasion.

And a late development tonight in the showdown with North Korea: Defense Secretary Rumsfeld has issued a prepare-to-deploy order to send U.S. bombers to Guam, within easy striking distance of the Korean Peninsula. This is a preliminary step, but it is the final step before actually sending them on their way.

Later on this special edition NEWSNIGHT from Houston: Has space lost its luster for our children? Up next: a man who has covered a few big stories along the way. We'll be joined by CBS News correspondent Bob Schieffer.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: As NEWSNIGHT continues from the Johnson Space Center in Houston, we'll talk with CBS News correspondent Bob Schieffer.

We'll be right back after a short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: If this isn't an old saying, it ought to be: The better the journalist, the better the off-duty stories he or she has to tell. It follows, therefore, that Bob Schieffer must have the best yarns of all. And he's written them down. The collection is called "This Just In: What I Couldn't Tell You on TV."

Bob Schieffer joins us now in Washington, which has been his lookout post for a long time, through a lot of presidents, a lot of national ups and downs.

It's good to have you with us, Bob. Thank you.

BOB SCHIEFFER, CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, CBS NEWS: Well, thank you very much, Aaron.

BROWN: Let's talk about the tragedy of this weekend.

It seems to me -- and feel free to disagree -- you won't be the first -- that we see this all different than we saw the tragedy of Challenger 17 years ago.

SCHIEFFER: Well, I think that's right. No. 1, we have just gotten over 9/11. And we're still kind of, I think, in kind of a state of shock about that.

But, Aaron, what strikes me about this -- and I'll bet you had the same thought that I did -- when I first heard about this, the first thing that went through my mind was, was this some kind of act of terrorism? Terrorism has become so much a part of our life. It's so much of a sign of the times, it seems to me, that any time anything untoward happens these days, we think it's the act of terrorists.

I guess that's another way of saying it helps us to understand how much the terrorists have already impacted on our lives and, in a funny kind of way, how much they've already taken from us.

BROWN: That's the terrible part about it. We all have said, so many times we've heard our political leaders say, if we do A or if we fail to do B, then the terrorists have won. But, in a very uncomfortable way, deep inside us, the terrorists have won a little, at least.

SCHIEFFER: Well, they've taken part of our way of life. There's no getting around that.

When you have security cameras at the Washington Monument and the Lincoln Memorial, and when something terrible happens, the first thing you think about, did the terrorists do it, they've done a lot more to us than we sometimes realize, I think.

BROWN: It, to me, at least, seems like months ago the president delivered his State of the Union speech. It wasn't. It was a week ago.

SCHIEFFER: Yes. BROWN: In that speech -- it was really two speeches, as we heard it -- did you hear anything that indicated to you this president does not intend to go to war?

SCHIEFFER: No. I think he left himself very little wiggle room, it seems to me, Aaron. He said: Saddam Hussein must disarm or we intend to disarm him.

Now, having said that, I think there's still a faint hope within the administration. And I know that some of the ranking officials still believe there is a chance that he may go voluntarily. And I think that's what some of this buildup you're seeing is all about, I think. Where you're seeing these war plans being leaked about the kind of lethal attack that we intend to unleash if he does not go, maybe that's what part of that is about, is to give him one more chance.

I think we're going to keep the pressure on until the very end. My guess is, we will not move in there until at least -- well, we know that Colin Powell is going to make a speech this week to lay out some of the proof that he says will show why Saddam Hussein poses such a threat. But I would guess, after that, the president will make another speech, if indeed we do go in.

But, at this point, if he does not disarm, it appears to me that there's going to be some military action.

BROWN: That's the heavy-lifting. Let's talk about the book a bit.

Why did you write it? What are the stories that you wanted to tell that you weren't able to tell? Are these behind-the-scenes tales?

SCHIEFFER: Yes.

These are really -- Aaron, what these are, they're the stories that reporters tell each other at the end of the day, sometimes after a little refreshment, when you're covering a big story, the stories of how you got the story, the stories of the mistakes you made, the funny things that happened along the way. I always found that one of the best parts of journalism. And, frankly, I thought they were kind of funny. And I thought others might find them funny as well. So, that's what these stories are about.

I guess, if there's a serious side, I hope people would come away from this book with a little better of understanding of how we as journalists operate, why we do what we do, and why we go after the stories the way we do. But, most of all, I hope they'll see that I've had a wonderful life in journalism. It's been a lot of fun for me. And I hope they'll understand and come to see a little bit better how the press operates.

BROWN: Well, Bob, we admire your work greatly. We wish you nothing but great success with the book. And thanks for your time tonight.

SCHIEFFER: Thank you very much, Aaron. Thanks for having me.

BROWN: Bob Schieffer, CBS News.

And next on this special edition of NEWSNIGHT from Houston: Is space the final frontier for our children or have they forgotten about it?

From Houston, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We are of that generation that watched Alan Shepard and John Glenn close the space gap and cheered. We were standing guard duty in boot camp the day men landed on the moon and we remember looking up in wonderment. Those were glory days and important days.

And on these sad days, it's hard not to wish that today's kids, including our own, could have that moment. We talked to kids today and listened.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): At Fowler High School in Syracuse, New York, the kids working on Charlotte Archabald's science project live and breath for one thing: their experiment with ants aboard the shuttle Columbia, three seniors and a sophomore laboring for more than three years.

RACHEL POPPE, HIGH SCHOOL SENIOR: It really, really hurt us to know that both our experiment was up there, but the seven lives that were lost. So, it was very, very painful.

BROWN: But if the students at Fowler were devastated by the destruction of Columbia, around the country, even in Houston, home to the shuttle program and the space center, most students we found had no idea, no idea at all that the shuttle was even aloft.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How many of you knew there was even a space shuttle up before the accident?

BRANDON YATES, EIGHTH-GRADER: I didn't know that the space shuttle was up there. I had no idea what they were doing until it came down. I really don't think about the space station on a daily basis or even a yearly basis.

BROWN: In New Jersey, at Demerus Middle School (ph), space exploration, it seems, hardly matters.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We joke around with it, like we probably talk about E.T. or something and just play around with it, but nothing too serious, though.

BROWN: And we found the same in Chicago at Nichols Middle School, which says an awful lot about the space program and children. CHRIS SMITH, EIGHTH-GRADER: I don't think about stuff like that. Like, we know what's out there, because we learned about it in science and stuff like that. But I really don't think about it, because it don't really affect me.

BROWN: That's not meant as a harsh indictment of kids. Space really doesn't affect most of the adults in the country either these days. And science teachers like Lisa Chestnut in Houston know it is an uphill struggle to create interest in the space program.

LISA CHESTNUT, HIGH SCHOOL TEACHER: Do you hear it on a regular basis, a daily basis? I don't hear it often. But if I sit down and talk to them or if we do different projects or science fair projects, some people are interested.

BROWN: But if this makes you think the future of space science is bleak, these kids will tell you, you are wrong. Nearly all we talked to wanted manned exploration of space to continue for the most basic of reasons.

KIRSTEN SALYER, EIGHTH-GRADER: At one time, space was just a big blue sky up there. And now it's so many different possibilities and so many different chances and choices that can be made, with all the knowledge that we've gained and all the knowledge that we can gain in the future.

BROWN: Pure music to the ears of the kids back at Fowler High in Syracuse. They're grown up enough to know that the reason their experiment is getting attention now is because of the awful tragedy that befell Columbia.

POPPE: That's so ironic, because we wanted the attention, but not in this way. We wanted the attention in a positive way. And it took a tragedy for us to get any attention at all.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: The story from Houston tonight.

Memorial service tomorrow. The president will be here. Our coverage begins at 12:30 Eastern time. We hope you'll join us.

Until then, I'm Aaron Brown. Good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired February 3, 2003 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: And good evening again, everyone. As Larry said, we're coming to you again tonight from the Johnson Space Center in Houston.
It occurred to us today that many, if not most, young people -- the ones born after Challenger -- couldn't give you the name of a single hero astronaut. But actually, that's not exactly true. Many, if not most, could tell you of the detailed exploits of Buzz Light Year, the delusional action figure from "Toy Story" who thinks he is a real hero, a real astronaut.

We think of Buzz when we realize the enormous challenges NASA is facing. Not the investigations, but that so-called vision thing. Selling the idea that space is exciting, that those going into space are still rugged explorers doing dangerous things and important work. Making sure that astronauts are thought of as heroes now for what they are doing, not just heroes when something bad happens.

So who needs convincing the most? You may think it's the money people in Washington, but we think that's not really it. We think it's the kids who need convincing.

Almost everyone in Congress now remembers the glory days of the space program. Twenty years from now, many won't, and neither will the people who vote for them. So what will it take to get kids to say on Halloween, "Daddy, I want to dress up as astronaut Michael Anderson, or Laurel Clark, or Rick Husband, or work someone working here at the Johnson Space Center right now tonight? Real heroes, rather than pretend heroes like Buzz Light Year.

Not an easy task, but the future for the program seems to be demanding nothing less. It's worth noting too that Buzz seems to know he needs to keep his young owner interested, needs to stay in the coolest toy around category. He knows his survival in the toy chest depends on it.

Buzz gets it. Hopefully NASA and the country will as well. But of course, the most pressing question in the short term is what went so wrong over the weekend? And we begin "The Whip" with the latest on the investigation and CNN's Miles O'Brien.

Miles, a headline from you tonight.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN SPACE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, NASA told us a little bit more about the final minutes of Columbia's fiery descent, and they also told us they aren't ruling anything out. But they're also operating on one assumption as well, that possibly some debris which fell off that external fuel tank on launch might have caused some serious damage to those insulating tiles.

BROWN: Miles, thank you. Back to you at the top tonight.

The president's budget was released today. And who would have expected that funding for NASA would get all the attention tonight? Senior White House correspondent John King has that.

John, the headline.

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, that budget was off the printing press well before Saturday's tragedy. Already Mr. Bush was calling for a modest increase in the space shuttle program. Most of that money to go to extending the life of the aging fleet. The big question tonight at the White House, will Columbia be replaced? The White House says the president cannot and will not answer that question until that investigation is complete -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you.

The search goes on for every small police of Columbia that fell to the ground and some large pieces found as well. David Mattingly working that for us.

David, a headline from you.

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hundreds of calls came in again today here in east Texas from people finding pieces of the space shuttle, but authorities say they're still missing some very important parts that they would love to get their hands on. Also, a warning tonight that some explosive material may have hit the ground here -- Aaron.

BROWN: David, thank you.

And a quick turn to a very different sort of story tonight, the arrest of a music industry legend. Paul Vercammen, is on that from Los Angeles.

Paul, a headline from you.

PAUL VERCAMMEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, very different indeed. They might as well crank up the calliope music. A media event here as Phil Spector is arrested on suspicion of murder after a woman is found shot to death in his estate -- Aaron.

BROWN: Paul, thank you. Back to you and all the rest shortly.

Also coming up tonight on NEWSNIGHT, some terrific guests to go at the Columbia story, the tragedy from a number of different angles. Congressman Sherwood Boehlert, who heads the House Science Committee, a committee that will look into the disaster. Easily one of the most respected journalists out there covering the space program and its history, Jeffrey Kluger, who has written the lead story this week in "TIME" magazine, "What Went Wrong." And one of the greats of broadcast news. We'll talk later in the hour to Bob Schieffer about Columbia, the presidency and his life as a journalist.

All of that in a very busy hour ahead from Houston tonight. But we begin with the investigation, and we continue to be struck by a couple of different things. First, NASA's effort to stay out in front and quickly share each new development as it comes along. And the second is how quickly things are unfolding or at least seem to be unfolding.

Columbia's nose cone was located today. It was discovered in Sabine County, where so much of the debris has fallen. How that fits into the larger picture we don't yet know. But tonight a working theory is taking shape. And if true, Columbia may have been doomed a little more than a minute into its flight. We begin tonight again with CNN's Miles O'Brien.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN (voice-over): Today, an even closer look at the area of Columbia drawing most attention, as debris flies off the external fuel tank and strikes the underside of the left wing during the launch on January 16. Shuttle program manager Ron Dittemore.

RON DITTEMORE, SHUTTLE PROGRAM MANAGER: We're making the assumption from the start that the external tank was the root cause of the problem that lost Columbia. And that's a fairly drastic assumption and it's sobering.

O'BRIEN: Also today, home video possibly showing debris flying off the shuttle much farther west over San Francisco. NASA says data shows that temperatures on the shuttle were rising even before the shuttle reached the coast.

DITTEMORE: If we can get our hands on that piece of debris that really helps us indicate where the genesis of the problem is, that would be very important if we find a piece of tile. Each tile is individually coded. And if we find that tile and can decipher the code, we'll know exactly where it came from on the wing. And that's the missing link that we're trying to find.

O'BRIEN: NASA clearly was concerned enough about the launch debris strike to study the problem, producing a memo estimating the size of any possible damage and concluding it would likely cause no burn-through and no safety of flight issue. A point echoed by flight director Leroy Cain during a briefing the day before landing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leroy, could you just review what the minor damage is to the tile on the left wing?

LEROY CAIN, FLIGHT DIRECTOR: I believe at this time we can't say with great detail the degree of the damage other than all of the analysis suggests that it would be very minor in terms of the amount of tile that might actually be missing or had been removed would be very minor. All of the analysis says that we have plenty of margin in those areas in that regard. But I can tell you we think it's going to be very small.

O'BRIEN: Now of course there's a lot of second guessing about that engineering analysis, and it will be redone. But shuttle program manager Ron Dittemore says he heard no reservations prior to Columbia's fiery descent.

DITTEMORE: I am aware here two days later that there had been some reservations expressed by certain individuals. And it goes back in time. And so we're reviewing those reservations again as part of our database. They weren't part of our play book at the time because they didn't surface, they didn't come forward.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: So the question tonight, Aaron, did they miss something big? A couple of other odds and ends that came out, among other things, that 32-second piece of data which they were talking about yesterday that might have been recoverable, they're not quite as optimistic tonight that they can get anything useful out of it.

BROWN: Because?

O'BRIEN: Well, it's raty. That's the term they use. It's just sporadic stuff. It was when a vehicle was breaking up and things were coming down in an intermittent fashion. Of course, this is the best and brightest here. If anybody can get that data out of those ones and zeros out of those computers, they can.

BROWN: Let's go back to the problems on the launch. If they had studied it even more carefully, if they had identified the seriousness of the problem, would it have changed, could it have changed the outcome?

O'BRIEN: Well, there is one scenario that came out in that briefing today which is worth talking about. If they had absolutely definitive, conclusive proof that they had so many tiles taken off the bottom of Columbia that they knew the outcome, they knew they were going to lose the vehicle and crew on descent, they might have come up with a way of bringing the orbiter in in a way that stressed one wing more than the other. In other words, kept the wing that was damaged cooler and made the other one hotter.

Now what that would do, that wouldn't get you to the landing site. That would lead you to an orbiter that would fail. But it could have gotten the crew down to a point where they could have bailed out. But you certainly would not have made that decision unless you knew for sure that was going to happen.

BROWN: Miles, thank you. You'll be joining us tomorrow for the memorial service. The president will be here for that. Sad day. It is. And a long weekend. Thank you, Miles O'Brien.

On to the White House next. The president sent his budget up to Congress today. $2.25 trillion the budget is. It also includes a record deficit, more money for defense and homeland security, as you would expect. That's part of the reason. On any other day, the story and the details of the budget would be the lead, we suspect. Tonight, however, we focus on what the budget and what the president have to say about NASA. Here again, our senior White House correspondent, John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): At the National Institutes of Health, a tribute to Columbia's crew and its work.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Two days ago America was yet reminded again of the sacrifices made in the name of scientific discovery. The seven brave men and women from the Columbia will be remembered for their achievements, their heroism and their sense of wonder.

KING: Mr. Bush met earlier at the White House with NASA administrator Sean O'Keefe, receiving an update on the early phases of the investigation. The new Bush administration budget prepared before the Columbia tragedy complains about NASA management, saying there is no clear measurable relationship between investments in the space shuttle and improvements in the shuttle's operational life, flight safety, or facilities conditions.

The investigative arm of Congress also has warned about job cutbacks and other problems in the shuttle program. But official says there is no evidence tight budgets or management problems had any role in Saturday's tragedy.

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: It would be premature and unwise to make any judgments about that at this time.

KING: The new Bush budget proposes $15.5 billion for NASA, up from $15 billion this year. By comparison, Mr. Bush proposes $24 billion on the new Department of Homeland Security and $380 billion on the Pentagon. Spending on the space shuttle program was $3.3 billion in fiscal 2002 and fell a bit to $3.2 billion this year. But for fiscal 2004, the president proposes a 24 percent increase, up to $3.9 billion.

Most of that new money would be for work that extends the life of the aging shuttle fleet, because tight NASA budgets have delayed work on a next generation orbiter. Aides say Mr. Bush is committed to manned space mission but won't commit to seeking more money to replace Columbia until the investigation is complete.

FLEISCHER: Let's find out what the cause of the accident was before reaching conclusions about what the next course in space exploration should be.

KING: The president heads to Houston Tuesday for a memorial services.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: And aides say at that service the president's priority is on paying tribute to the lost astronauts and trying to bring some comfort to their families. Mr. Bush also hoping to boost morale at the space agency by making clear his commitment to resuming manned flight. Aaron, here at the White House tonight they say they have not ruled out some sort of presidential commission to investigate this tragedy, but their clear preference is to rely on those several investigations already underway.

BROWN: Because?

KING: Because they believe another investigation would serve no purpose unless there are fundamental questions about the impartiality or the cooperation of NASA and someone (ph) else. They know Congress is going to look into this through several committees. You have NASA's internal investigation, plus the independent commission. The White House believes and hopes that that's enough.

BROWN: And just quickly on tomorrow, the president will meet as he has done in other instances in his term with the individual family members quietly or privately?

KING: Privately. While at the Johnson Space Center, he will spend some time with the family members we are told. Remember when he went to New York on the anniversary of September 11 he did so there as well. Something, as you noted last night, this president has been through before.

He will have public remarks at the memorial service. But for the president, his aides say, more important it is to spend some private time with those families.

BROWN: John, thank you. John King at the White House tonight on the president and the White House situation relative to the shuttle tragedy.

Back now to the investigation. NASA today expanding the search for debris, extending it westward. You heard in Miles O'Brien's report why that is so important in far west as California to find what had perhaps fallen earliest in the breakup. A second collection point has been set up now outside Fort Worth at (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Air force Base. But again the major focus was to the east, where the bulk of the debris fell.

Entire counties are checkerboards of yellow crime scene tape. It's hard not to be struck by their dual nature. Each one a piece of the puzzle, but also a memorial site unto itself. Here again, CNN's David Mattingly.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY (voice-over): It was a somber day off for the K through 12 Douglas school in Nacogdoches County. Students stayed away while the EPA directed teams collecting shuttle debris from the roof and the schoolyard.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're all deeply saddened all this happened. We wish we were not getting the notoriety. We wish the astronauts were back with their families.

MATTINGLY: Meanwhile, in town, it was a return to the work week. Just off Main Street, the shuttle fragment that stopped traffic over the weekend had been removed as well. In its place, a memorial of flowers, expressing sentiments of a town now forever linked to a national tragedy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is their sacred resting ground, just like we have sacred Indian grounds here. This is a sacred Columbia ground.

MATTINGLY: All the while, the grim task of searching escalates throughout east Texas, with patrols now from the air. And at the Sabine River lake, teams of divers hit the water, searching for a car- sized chunk of debris the fishermen say splashed down. But the same priorities continue, find the human remains. Fifteen sightings in Nacogdoches County alone now. Also, locate the computer components or circuitry that could yield important data. Some key pieces, according to authorities, shrouded in black rectangular boxes.

THOMAS KERSS, SHERIFF, NACOGDOCHES COUNTY: Unfortunately what we're having here is like much of the debris that's being broken apart or was broken apart during the disaster. So we're finding segments of the box, not an intact piece.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY: The sheriff also warning the public about the existence of some explosive bolts that may have hit the ground here. This part of a safety feature that allows the crew cabin to break away from the shuttle in the time of an emergency. It would not have been effective in this kind of disaster. So it's possible they may have hit the ground here. There are teams from the National Guard that are standing by just in case, Aaron, anybody finds those.

BROWN: David, thank you. David Mattingly, who has been working that part of the story.

One more element of the story here before we go to break. In Racine, Wisconsin this evening there was a memorial service for the mission specialist Laurel Salton Clark, who grew up in that Wisconsin town, went to church there, and is remembered there at least as much for the many accomplishments of her life -- and they were considerable -- as for her death.

Laurel Salton Clark conquered practically every element there is. Diving with Navy Seals and serving as a flight surgeon before venturing out into space. She was a mother, as well, of an 8-year-old son.

In an e-mail she sent home the day before she died, Laurel Clark told her friends and family, "I hope you can feel the positive energy that beamed to the whole planet as we guided over."

And again, our coverage of the memorial service here at the Johnson Space Center begins tomorrow afternoon at 12:30 Eastern Time. The president will be here. We'll be here, along with Judy Woodruff and Miles O'Brien. And if you can, we hope you'll join us as well.

Ahead on this special edition of NEWSNIGHT from Houston, we'll look at the lessons learned from the Challenger investigation and how they may impact this current investigation. And later we'll look at whether space has lost its luster for our children. From Houston, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: It's terrible to say, but there is a template for investigating disasters like this one. We have Challenger to look back on and to learn from. Back then, President Ronald Reagan called for an independent commission, 13 distinguished people from different backgrounds. It was known as the Rogers Commission for former Secretary of State William Rogers, who led the hearings.

They conducted 160 interviews, 35 investigative sessions, and pored through 63,000 documents and pictures. And one more number. They had 120 days to come up with the cause. It didn't take long to zero in on one single factor, the effect that cold weather that day had on the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) joints. Rarely in such a complex situation do you get the sort of gotcha moment. But this one, this investigation had it in a demonstration by the renowned physicist Richard Feynman.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD FEYNMAN, PHYSICIST: Well I took this stuff that I got out of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and I put it in ice water. And I discovered that when you put some pressure on it for a while and then undo it, it maintains, it doesn't stretch back, it stays the same dimension. In other words, for a few seconds at least, and more seconds than that, there's no resilience in this particular material when it's at a temperature of 32 degrees. I believe that has some significance for our problem.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: It had a lot of significance. We should add that President Bush himself has not called for a commission, as John King reported a few moments ago. Today in the editorial pages of "The New York Times," a suggestion that, given the success of the Rogers Commission, the president should at least consider it. The Rogers Commission had 120 days; we've had less than four. And we can't stress enough, despite how much information has come out, we stick with what we know and resist speculation.

We don't worry about that, where our next guest is concerned. Jeffrey Kluger has pieced together the facts we have now for this week's "TIME" magazine. He's also the co-author of the definitive account of Apollo 13, and that successful failure, as they call it, a book called "Lost Moon: The Perilous Voyage of Apollo 13." He joins us from New York. Good to have you with us tonight.

JEFFREY KLUGER, SR. WRITER, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Thanks for having me. BROWN: What's the most surprising piece of information that you've heard in the last couple of days?

KLUGER: I think the most surprising piece of information is one that we've heard a great deal, which is that we have, it seems, the smoking gun even before a commission convenes. It's a bit of good fortune in all this ill fortune that we've seen this piece of foam break off the external tank, that there's footage that accounts for it, and that all of the evidence so far is consistent without having done it, without having been responsible.

Now that said, there is some history for counterintuitive things causing problems. Nobody thought of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in 1986. When TWA Flight 800 exploded in 1996, nobody thought a center fuel tank explosion could be responsible for it. In fact, the thinking at the time was that, yes, it's possible, but it would be the first time in the history of commercial aviation that it happened, and yet it did happen.

So in this case, we shouldn't rush to judgment. But I think we should be grateful that we seem to have what could be the definitive agent responsible for this.

BROWN: I suspect, Jeffrey, that when a lot of us first heard of this, our first impulse -- it may have been fleeting -- but our first impulse was terrorism. You're someone who has covered this a long time. What was your first impulse?

KLUGER: My first impulse was aging shuttle fleet and statistical inevitability. Terrorism after September 11 occurred to everybody, of course, and it occurred to me as well. But the two possibilities, the two ways it could be done, either through a shoulder-launched missile or some bomb being slipped aboard the spacecraft were such long shots, that I was happy that it didn't merit serious attention. And even in the more sensationalistic elements in the media it hasn't gotten sincere attention.

I do think that the space shuttle has always been, while a magnificent piece of engineering, a very temperamental piece of engineering. I think risk analysis has always said that you would have accidents with this kind of vehicle in one in about every 100 flights. And also, keep in mind the vehicles are flying longer than they were intended to.

They were originally meant to fly 100 flights. But to do it in just a handful of years. Columbia's been around for 22 years and was only flown 28 times. A lot of fatigue gets built up in a spacecraft over that period of time, and it's not surprising that another one, especially the oldest one, has now been claimed by an accident.

BROWN: And weigh in on -- because it's one of those things that in these moments everyone talks about, everyone here, everyone in Congress, everyone says corners weren't cut where safety was concerned. But was there some corner cutting to make budget or at least delaying upgrades, when upgrades were called for? KLUGER: I think it's possible that there was some delaying of upgrades, but for all the hits NASA has taken, some deserved, some not so deserved over the years, the kind of attention -- I've been in the orbiter processing facility in Florida and I've seen the kind of meticulous attention that's paid to maintaining these spacecrafts.

I've seen the heat lamps trained on one tile at a time until they've properly (UNINTELLIGIBLE), until they've properly enamelized (ph) onto the surface of the spacecraft. And I think that NASA has done the very best it can within the budgetary limitations it's had. There has always been friction between engineering and politics with this craft.

The shuttle when first conceived was supposed to be a single- staged orbit craft. There would have been no solid boosters, there would have been no external tank. Without solid boosters, we never would have had Challenger. So I think NASA has come up against the hard realities of money, but I believe at least in terms of safety, it's done the very best it could within those limitations.

BROWN: Jeffrey, thanks for your expertise and your time tonight. We appreciate it very much. Thank you.

KLUGER: Thank you for having me.

BROWN: And we continue looking at the shuttle Columbia story from here in Houston as the hour goes on. But after the break we'll check on some of the other stories that made news today, including the murder arrest of famous record producer Phil Spector. From Houston, Texas, this is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Don't adjust your sets. This is not the "E True Hollywood Story." But it certainly has plenty of the elements for that. Phil Spector, a pioneer in the music business during the '60s, arrested today on suspicion of murder. The victim, a young woman in her 20s. The crime scene, his home, which could double for some strange castle. It even has a supporting cast member from that grand daddy of all true Hollywood stories. You had to guess? The O.J. case, of course. How soon we forget. Here's CNN's Paul Vercammen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VERCAMMEN (voice-over): Music mogul Phil Spector, the behind- the-scenes recording studio whiz, finds himself front and center in an unfolding spectacle.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has been arrested and he is booked for murder.

VERCAMMEN: Authorities say, shortly after 5:00 this morning, they received a call reporting someone had been shot at Spector's hilltop estate. Spector was later arrested at his mansion in connection with the shooting death of a female in her 20s, Spector's black sedan, driver side's door wide open, is also part of the investigation.

Robert Shapiro, Spector's longtime lawyer and former O.J. Simpson attorney, spent much of the day at the Alhambra city jail with his client, Spector.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, 1989)

TINA TURNER, SINGER: I'm glad to say that the Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame welcomes Phil Spector.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VERCAMMEN: The Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame member is one of the best-known producers in pop music history, working with the Righteous Brothers, Ike and Tina Turner and the Beatles on "Let It Be." Spector cranked out countless '60s hits, including the Crystals' "Da Doo Ron Ron."

Spector helped launch the careers of the Ronettes and Ronnie Bennett, seen here on "Hollywood A Go-Go." The couple married in 1968 and divorced six years later. Spector's current residence, a testament to his success and riches, is now a crime scene. Some neighbors say noises from the direction of Spector's estate this morning woke them up.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was asleep and then suddenly -- it was about 5:20, 5:25 morning -- when I heard the boom, boom, boom. It was about three or for shots.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VERCAMMEN: And now back here live in Alhambra.

We understand that Phil Spector has just posted bail. He is out of jail. Apparently he and his lawyer, Robert Shapiro, slipped out a side or a back door. They have no comment. One thing for certain: Spector won't be returning to this estate soon. This is a sealed-off crime scene. And sheriff's deputies say he will not be allowed to return to this crime scene for some time now -- Aaron.

BROWN: So, he made bail on a murder charge. That's unusual in Los Angeles. Do we know anything about the victim, anything about the circumstances, or at least the circumstances as police believe them to be?

VERCAMMEN: Well, police are being very tight-lipped. And they are not saying much at all about this victim.

If you look at these circumstances, they say that this call was placed from either inside this estate or on the estate property. And it remains to be seen just what the link is with the car. As we said before, it was just outside this front gate here, with the door suspiciously wide open.

So, it could be assumed or presumed that either Spector made this 911 call or someone else, perhaps someone who works at the estate, made this call to the Alhambra Police Department. The Alhambra Police Department, by the way, is very small. And now jumping into the fray here is the L.A. County Sheriff's Office -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, thank you. And I suspect, at least by tomorrow, we'll know a bit more, at least about what the police think happened.

A few more stories now before we go to break, starting at sea and yet another outbreak of what appears to be the Norwalk virus: More than 250 passengers and crew aboard the Sun Princess have gotten ill this time since the ship set sail from Los Angeles. Most have already recovered. Norwalk isn't especially pleasant, of course, but the symptoms do quickly pass.

The Red Cross today expanded a blood quarantine from Georgia to cover the state of Tennessee as well. Testing is being done to figure out what the white particles are that keep showing up in bags of donated blood. They first showed up last night. The quarantine has forced an area hospital to curtail elective surgery. But emergency operations are still being done, other blood being used in those cases -- a great mystery, that.

And emergency rooms in New Jersey are bracing for trouble tonight. Doctors there have started staging a work slowdown in protest of the prices they have to pay for malpractice insurance. You may remember similar strikes and slowdowns have taken place in West Virginia, Pennsylvania and Florida and Nevada. It is a trend these days.

Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, we'll talk with Congressman Sherwood Boehlert, who chairs the House Science Committee that will investigate the shuttle disaster.

From Houston, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And next on NEWSNIGHT: Is it a question of money? We'll talk with a leading member of Congress who deals with NASA about the work ahead.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Back to the shuttle investigation -- we should make that investigations, plural -- three broad inquiries, with a number of others in the works or gearing up.

Representative Sherwood Boehlert's House committee has oversight responsibility for NASA. He's conducting one of those investigations. The congressman joins us tonight from Washington.

Nice to have you with us, sir.

I know you know, you've heard these questions before. But one of your colleagues, Jim Sensenbrenner of Wisconsin, said to us last night that he did think Congress bore some responsibility, at least in this regard, that the shuttle budget gets all mixed with the space station budget, and the space station budget has been a black hole. Do you agree with that, that at least the space station has been sucking money out of the program?

REP. SHERWOOD BOEHLERT (R), NEW YORK: Well, the space station has been over budget and it's taken a disproportionate share of the budget. But I don't think that's caused sacrificing with the shuttle program.

BROWN: You think they're just separate problems or separate situations?

(CROSSTALK)

BOEHLERT: I do indeed.

BROWN: OK.

Where do you go here? Obviously, there are a lot of facts to gather, but a lot of facts have come out. Do you get the feeling that you have a fairly decent idea of what might have happened?

BOEHLERT: Well, we're not going to jump to any conclusions, nor should we. And we are not going to rule out any options.

We had a meeting this afternoon with Administrator O'Keefe, the congressional leadership, and the leaders of the committees of jurisdiction. And he took us through, step by step, the procedure and where we're going from here. For our sake, the House Science Committee, we have on February 27 a hearing to begin the process of reauthorizing NASA's budget. But now, obviously, the scope of that is going to be expanded.

BROWN: Do you believe that this tragedy will require the country to think very hard about investing in a new upgraded vehicle if man space flight remains a priority?

BOEHLERT: Well, I think this investigation is going to prompt Americans to think long and hard about a lot of things.

But they should have no illusions. We're not going to have a quick answer, but we're going to continue the space program. It's critically important. It's so much more than the shuttle program.

BROWN: Well, it's one thing, of course, to consider the space program. It's another thing to consider the manned part of the space program, which is very expensive, because of all the redundancies and safety that has to be built in.

If we're going to continue manned space flights, should we be continuing it in the shuttle?

BOEHLERT: Well, that's one of the options we're going to look at. We're going to examine it very carefully, but only in light of a very thorough, very comprehensive investigation. We owe that to the families of the Columbia crew and we owe that to their memory. It's going to be a very thorough, very comprehensive investigation. But keep in mind, the space shuttle program, this is the first accident in the 42-year history of the overall space program on reentry. Unfortunately, we've just had one previous accident and that was the Challenger back in '86.

But the fact of the matter is, human space flight, which is something I support, has provided wonderful results, not just for the United States, but for all mankind. Whether or not we continue it is an open question, but I favor it and I think we will conclude that we should continue it.

BROWN: Congressman, that's a good note to leave on. We'll see how these hearings go. I think those of us who have grown up with the program are extraordinarily interested in what you all learn.

Thanks for joining us tonight.

BOEHLERT: Thank you, Aaron.

BROWN: And a couple more stories from around the world before we go to break here: With the two chief weapons inspectors heading back to Iraq, the Iraqi government says it will come away convinced -- or rather they, the weapons inspectors, will come away convinced that Iraq is cooperating. Hans Blix, Mohamed ElBaradei plan to arrive in Baghdad on Saturday. They are expected to push Iraq to allow U-2 overflights by Americans and to permit inspectors to privately interview Iraqi scientists. These are issues that have been there for a while now.

Meantime, in Baghdad, more preparations for war: Saddam Hussein and son met today with commanders of the Jerusalem Army, a volunteer force Saddam created early in the Palestinian uprising. The commanders told their president, not surprisingly, they're prepared to fight street by street, house by house, to defeat any American invasion.

And a late development tonight in the showdown with North Korea: Defense Secretary Rumsfeld has issued a prepare-to-deploy order to send U.S. bombers to Guam, within easy striking distance of the Korean Peninsula. This is a preliminary step, but it is the final step before actually sending them on their way.

Later on this special edition NEWSNIGHT from Houston: Has space lost its luster for our children? Up next: a man who has covered a few big stories along the way. We'll be joined by CBS News correspondent Bob Schieffer.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: As NEWSNIGHT continues from the Johnson Space Center in Houston, we'll talk with CBS News correspondent Bob Schieffer.

We'll be right back after a short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: If this isn't an old saying, it ought to be: The better the journalist, the better the off-duty stories he or she has to tell. It follows, therefore, that Bob Schieffer must have the best yarns of all. And he's written them down. The collection is called "This Just In: What I Couldn't Tell You on TV."

Bob Schieffer joins us now in Washington, which has been his lookout post for a long time, through a lot of presidents, a lot of national ups and downs.

It's good to have you with us, Bob. Thank you.

BOB SCHIEFFER, CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, CBS NEWS: Well, thank you very much, Aaron.

BROWN: Let's talk about the tragedy of this weekend.

It seems to me -- and feel free to disagree -- you won't be the first -- that we see this all different than we saw the tragedy of Challenger 17 years ago.

SCHIEFFER: Well, I think that's right. No. 1, we have just gotten over 9/11. And we're still kind of, I think, in kind of a state of shock about that.

But, Aaron, what strikes me about this -- and I'll bet you had the same thought that I did -- when I first heard about this, the first thing that went through my mind was, was this some kind of act of terrorism? Terrorism has become so much a part of our life. It's so much of a sign of the times, it seems to me, that any time anything untoward happens these days, we think it's the act of terrorists.

I guess that's another way of saying it helps us to understand how much the terrorists have already impacted on our lives and, in a funny kind of way, how much they've already taken from us.

BROWN: That's the terrible part about it. We all have said, so many times we've heard our political leaders say, if we do A or if we fail to do B, then the terrorists have won. But, in a very uncomfortable way, deep inside us, the terrorists have won a little, at least.

SCHIEFFER: Well, they've taken part of our way of life. There's no getting around that.

When you have security cameras at the Washington Monument and the Lincoln Memorial, and when something terrible happens, the first thing you think about, did the terrorists do it, they've done a lot more to us than we sometimes realize, I think.

BROWN: It, to me, at least, seems like months ago the president delivered his State of the Union speech. It wasn't. It was a week ago.

SCHIEFFER: Yes. BROWN: In that speech -- it was really two speeches, as we heard it -- did you hear anything that indicated to you this president does not intend to go to war?

SCHIEFFER: No. I think he left himself very little wiggle room, it seems to me, Aaron. He said: Saddam Hussein must disarm or we intend to disarm him.

Now, having said that, I think there's still a faint hope within the administration. And I know that some of the ranking officials still believe there is a chance that he may go voluntarily. And I think that's what some of this buildup you're seeing is all about, I think. Where you're seeing these war plans being leaked about the kind of lethal attack that we intend to unleash if he does not go, maybe that's what part of that is about, is to give him one more chance.

I think we're going to keep the pressure on until the very end. My guess is, we will not move in there until at least -- well, we know that Colin Powell is going to make a speech this week to lay out some of the proof that he says will show why Saddam Hussein poses such a threat. But I would guess, after that, the president will make another speech, if indeed we do go in.

But, at this point, if he does not disarm, it appears to me that there's going to be some military action.

BROWN: That's the heavy-lifting. Let's talk about the book a bit.

Why did you write it? What are the stories that you wanted to tell that you weren't able to tell? Are these behind-the-scenes tales?

SCHIEFFER: Yes.

These are really -- Aaron, what these are, they're the stories that reporters tell each other at the end of the day, sometimes after a little refreshment, when you're covering a big story, the stories of how you got the story, the stories of the mistakes you made, the funny things that happened along the way. I always found that one of the best parts of journalism. And, frankly, I thought they were kind of funny. And I thought others might find them funny as well. So, that's what these stories are about.

I guess, if there's a serious side, I hope people would come away from this book with a little better of understanding of how we as journalists operate, why we do what we do, and why we go after the stories the way we do. But, most of all, I hope they'll see that I've had a wonderful life in journalism. It's been a lot of fun for me. And I hope they'll understand and come to see a little bit better how the press operates.

BROWN: Well, Bob, we admire your work greatly. We wish you nothing but great success with the book. And thanks for your time tonight.

SCHIEFFER: Thank you very much, Aaron. Thanks for having me.

BROWN: Bob Schieffer, CBS News.

And next on this special edition of NEWSNIGHT from Houston: Is space the final frontier for our children or have they forgotten about it?

From Houston, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We are of that generation that watched Alan Shepard and John Glenn close the space gap and cheered. We were standing guard duty in boot camp the day men landed on the moon and we remember looking up in wonderment. Those were glory days and important days.

And on these sad days, it's hard not to wish that today's kids, including our own, could have that moment. We talked to kids today and listened.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): At Fowler High School in Syracuse, New York, the kids working on Charlotte Archabald's science project live and breath for one thing: their experiment with ants aboard the shuttle Columbia, three seniors and a sophomore laboring for more than three years.

RACHEL POPPE, HIGH SCHOOL SENIOR: It really, really hurt us to know that both our experiment was up there, but the seven lives that were lost. So, it was very, very painful.

BROWN: But if the students at Fowler were devastated by the destruction of Columbia, around the country, even in Houston, home to the shuttle program and the space center, most students we found had no idea, no idea at all that the shuttle was even aloft.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How many of you knew there was even a space shuttle up before the accident?

BRANDON YATES, EIGHTH-GRADER: I didn't know that the space shuttle was up there. I had no idea what they were doing until it came down. I really don't think about the space station on a daily basis or even a yearly basis.

BROWN: In New Jersey, at Demerus Middle School (ph), space exploration, it seems, hardly matters.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We joke around with it, like we probably talk about E.T. or something and just play around with it, but nothing too serious, though.

BROWN: And we found the same in Chicago at Nichols Middle School, which says an awful lot about the space program and children. CHRIS SMITH, EIGHTH-GRADER: I don't think about stuff like that. Like, we know what's out there, because we learned about it in science and stuff like that. But I really don't think about it, because it don't really affect me.

BROWN: That's not meant as a harsh indictment of kids. Space really doesn't affect most of the adults in the country either these days. And science teachers like Lisa Chestnut in Houston know it is an uphill struggle to create interest in the space program.

LISA CHESTNUT, HIGH SCHOOL TEACHER: Do you hear it on a regular basis, a daily basis? I don't hear it often. But if I sit down and talk to them or if we do different projects or science fair projects, some people are interested.

BROWN: But if this makes you think the future of space science is bleak, these kids will tell you, you are wrong. Nearly all we talked to wanted manned exploration of space to continue for the most basic of reasons.

KIRSTEN SALYER, EIGHTH-GRADER: At one time, space was just a big blue sky up there. And now it's so many different possibilities and so many different chances and choices that can be made, with all the knowledge that we've gained and all the knowledge that we can gain in the future.

BROWN: Pure music to the ears of the kids back at Fowler High in Syracuse. They're grown up enough to know that the reason their experiment is getting attention now is because of the awful tragedy that befell Columbia.

POPPE: That's so ironic, because we wanted the attention, but not in this way. We wanted the attention in a positive way. And it took a tragedy for us to get any attention at all.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: The story from Houston tonight.

Memorial service tomorrow. The president will be here. Our coverage begins at 12:30 Eastern time. We hope you'll join us.

Until then, I'm Aaron Brown. Good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

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