Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Congress Grills Powell on Iraq, North Korea

Aired February 06, 2003 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening again, everyone. Just a few seconds at the top tonight, because this really is off (ph) the news but shouldn't go unnoticed. Ten years ago today, the great Arthur Ashe died. Ten years. We don't use the word "great" a lot, and we did not in Mr. Ashes' case say "great athlete." Arthur Ashe was more than that.
You probably remember many of the facts of his life. A child of segregated Richmond. He went on to become a great tennis champion. A black man in a very white sport. He was an activist, he had an extraordinary passion for ending apartheid in South Africa.

He contracted AIDS from a blood transfusion, but he had a lot of health problems even before that. And in those days, AIDS killed very quickly and Arthur Ashe was taken.

There was a fuss of some size over a statue erected in his honor in Richmond, though people will deny it was, of course, about race. We can't escape that subject. And Arthur Ashe knew that better than most. We've talked an awful lot lately about heroes, about bravery and courage. Arthur Ashe was great American hero, and we lost him 10 years ago today.

On to the news of the day. And Iraq begins the program and "The Whip" once again. Today brought the toughest talk yet from the president. Our senior White House correspondent John King with us tonight. John, a headline.

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the president put it about as bluntly as you can. He said flatly today Saddam Hussein will be stopped. The president also said the game is over. The only question, it seems, from Mr. Bush's perspective is whether the United Nations Security Council will join the fight or, as he put it, continue to be "defied and mocked by a dictator" -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you. Back to you at the top tonight.

The latest from another nation included by the president in the so-called axis of evil, North Korea. Andrea Koppel following the developments today from the State Department. Andrea, a headline.

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, just yesterday it was Secretary Powell who put Iraq on notice and taking the offense. One day later on Capitol Hill, it was Secretary Powell who was grilled by Senate Democrats. Not so much on Iraq as on North Korea. BROWN: Andrea, thank you.

On to the investigation into what brought down the Shuttle Columbia. Miles O'Brien of course on that. Miles, a headline from you tonight.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Aaron, if you had the sense finding the solution to what caused Columbia to disintegrate would come fast or easy, you are sorely mistaken. Today NASA investigators say nothing has been ruled out. And one person close to the investigation told me, "We could use a lucky break."

BROWN: Miles, thank you very much. Back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up tonight on NEWSNIGHT for the 6th February, a sparing view of the United States, the push to confront Iraq, and how the world looks at America. We'll talk with Gore Vidal, who is likely to incense more than a few of you. We'll look forward to the e-mails.

And the man who has been described as the pot head's answer to Anne Landers, Ed Rosenthal, who is caught up in a battle between the federal government and the laws of the state of California over growing marijuana for sick people. That and more coming up in the hour ahead.

But we being with an item, a small one perhaps in the larger picture, but it raised a chill like nothing else today. For the first time in its history, the Pentagon is considering the possibility that if war comes, fallen soldiers may have to be cremated because of contamination from chemical or biological attacks. And because, if it comes to that, the number of dead may be overwhelming.

Chilling as it was, telling as it is, this was just one of many larger developments today. All of them sending much the same message: this is serious, time is running out. We begin at the White House. And here's CNN's John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): The president's tough statement included this impatient challenge to the United Nations.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Having made its demands, the Security Council must not back down when those demands are defied and mocked by a dictator.

KING: The late afternoon appearance was designed to echo the key points of Secretary of State Powell's U.N. presentation.

BUSH: We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons.

KING: Mr. Bush says there now should be no doubt that Iraq has active chemical and biological weapons programs, is hiding evidence from U.N. inspectors, and allowing an al Qaeda terrorist cell to operate out of Baghdad. The president said he would welcome a second Security Council resolution, but only if it backs up the threat of force in the first resolution. And he voiced no patience for those who say inspectors deserve more time.

BUSH: The dictator of Iraq is making his choice. Now the nations of the Security Council must make their own.

KING: Earlier, Secretary Powell told Congress preparations for war include going on alert for retaliatory terrorist strikes in the United States and across the Middle East.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We are talking to all of our friends in the region who might be subject to that kind of disturbance within their countries to making sure that they understand the threat and the consequences.

KING: A day after Powell's presentation to the United Nations, the administration said there is growing evidence the U.S. view on Iraq is gaining support. Mr. Bush began his day at Washington's annual prayer breakfast. In his thoughts, the troops he might soon order into combat.

BUSH: One thing is for certain. We didn't ask for these challenge, but we will meet them.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: And as part of its tough line, the White House is flatly dismissing Iraq's decision today to allow one of its scientists to be interviewed in private by the U.N. weapons inspectors. Senior officials here say occasional cooperation simply will not cut it. And the president warned of what he called a, "last-minute game of deception." Then Mr. Bush quickly added, "The game is over" -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well you have Mr. Blix in Baghdad over the weekend. It has all the feeling of the beginning of the end game. And then on the 14th back to the U.N. Is the administration now -- will they ramp up, I guess, their campaign, their -- excuse the expression -- PR effort?

KING: It certainly will. Secretary Powell and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice will be out on the talk shows here in the United States this Sunday. They also increasingly are making international television appearances. Condoleezza Rice, for example, giving an interview with the French TV station TV3 (ph) in the recent days.

All of this designed to ramp up pressure on the allies overseas. And we are told tonight that the United States is already working with Great Britain on that second resolution. Great Britain will take the lead, we are told, within a day or so, or perhaps even within hours or so of that presentation by Dr. Blix on the 14th. Look for a second resolution.

The only way it will be pulled back is if the United States is convinced it will be vetoed. Here they're voicing cautious optimism that if Dr. Blix once again said Iraq is not fully cooperating, that France and Russia and other will come around -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you. We won't keep you out in the weather any longer. Senior White House correspondent John King at the White House tonight in snowy Washington.

The Army's 101st airborne division got the call today, not surprisingly. It was alerted to expect orders in a matter of days to send it to the Gulf. That's 270 choppers and 20,000 troops. The Screaming Eagles as they are called. Many saw action in Afghanistan. The unit enjoys an elite tradition dating back to D-day, when 14,0000 members of the 101st dropped behind enemy lines at Normandy.

There were tough words today from the U.N. weapons inspectors, Hans Blix and Mohamed ElBaradei, who will be in Baghdad by Saturday. They were in London today. And after a meeting with Britain's Prime Minister Blair, Mr. ElBaradei said Iraq needs to show drastic change in terms of cooperation. Mr. Blix said the clock was ticking. But he also made a point of noting the U.N. clock and White House clock aren't necessarily operating at the same speed.

In Iraq today, there was a step that seemed on the surface at least to address a major concern of the inspectors. You heard John King refer to it. A scientist agreed to be interviewed without a government minder in the room. In a moment, you'll hear a top Iraqi official say the man is taking a big risk, to which many who know the way things work in Iraq would say, yes, in more ways than one. Here's CNN's Nic Robertson.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Emerging from a Baghdad hotel, Iraq's first scientist to hold a private interview with U.N. inspectors was quickly hustled away by Iraqi officials. Biologist Dr. Salame (ph), agreed to the late-night talks, Iraqi officials say, because he was concerned about pressure on Iraq.

GENERAL AMER AL-SA'ADI, HUSSEIN SCIENTIFIC ADVISER: He's taking a risk, of course. We don't know what's going to happen.

ROBERTSON: The announcement came during al-Sa-adi's news conference, rebutting U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell's address to the U.N.

AL-SA'ADI: The purpose of the show that was -- that went on inside the Security Council was mainly for home consumption, for the uninformed.

ROBERTSON: Using copies of Powell's satellite images, he attempted to show mistakes.

AL-SA'ADI: These are true pictures, but they are of another missile, which is not (UNINTELLIGIBLE). It is in the range of about 70 kilometers.

ROBERTSON: A spokesman for the foreign ministry denying links to al Qaeda, saying Iraq had tried to help round up the terrorists.

AMB. SAYED AL MOUSAWI, SPOKESMAN, IRAQI FOREIGN MINISTRY (through translator): The Iraqi authorities concerned were instructed to look for them and make exceptional efforts.

ROBERTSON: Accusations also from the officials that Powell's speech compromised the credibility of the inspectors.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to prove their independence, their professionalism. They have to say in a brave manner that all those allegations are lies and prove nothing that Iraq is keeping any proscribed weapons of mass destruction.

ROBERTSON (on camera): Such tough talk seems to contradict the new apparent cooperation to meet U.N. demands too interview scientists. U.N. officials say, however, when Mohamed ElBaradei and Hans Blix, the two U.N. weapons chiefs, arrive here this weekend, they'll be expecting Iraqi officials to resolve two other outstanding issues: the use of U-2 surveillance aircraft and the passage of legislation outlawing weapons of mass destruction. Nic Robertson, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Well, with the possibility of war quickly becoming a likelihood, the State Department is warning Americans living and traveling overseas to be on guard. Again, as John King mentioned, the State Department believes there is a heightened threat of terrorism, including suicide bombings and assassinations. The warning also speaks to the growing threat of chemical or biological attacks. The concern is shared back home tonight. Reporting for us, CNN's Kelli Arena.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. officials are increasingly concerned about the possibility of a chemical or biological attack, like the sarin gas attacks in the Tokyo subway in 1995. Officials tell CNN there has been a spate of intelligence from a variety of sources in recent weeks suggesting there could be such an attack in the United States in the near future. The information does not single out any specific chemical agent or target, but officials are mostly concerned about so-called soft targets, such as sports arenas and amusement parks.

KENNETH KATZMAN, CONGRESSIONAL RESEARCH SERVICE: They could also try attacks on shopping malls, like the mall of America or something, some corporate headquarters. Anything that they feel will have a tremendous shock value really.

ARENA: Recent arrests in London have focused attention on the deadly toxin ricin. It is readily available and easy to manipulate. In his speech before the United Nations, Secretary of State Colin Powell spoke bluntly about the threat.

POWELL: Death comes within 72 hours and there is no antidote, there is no cure.

ARENA: The new intelligence led to a new State Department warning to U.S. citizens living abroad, but it has not yet led to an increase in the national threat level.

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The alert remains at the elevated level of yellow. And depending on the quantity or quality of information, if there are any changes to be announced, they would get announced each day. There is nothing that would change it today.

ARENA: That's no to say it won't be raised someday soon. Fleischer did point out that the Muslim pilgrimage season known as (UNINTELLIGIBLE) starts next week. A period during which he says an individual could subvert the Muslim message of peace and attack. Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: On to the crisis with North Korea, if crisis is a word you're comfortable with. More threatening noises from Pyongyang today. And criticism from lawmakers at home. The administration continues to battle allegations it is treating the standoff more like a distraction than the potential catastrophe it represents. Here again, CNN's Andrea Koppel.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL (voice-over): One day after turning the tables on Iraq, Secretary of State Powell found the tables turned on him, criticized by congressional Democrats for not doing enough to diffuse a growing crisis with North Korea.

SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: I also think that North Korea is equally, equally as urgent a problem as Saddam Hussein at the moment.

SEN. BARBARA BOXER (D), CALIFORNIA: I see a doctrine that appears to me to be one of designed neglect.

POWELL: I simply cannot sit here and not respond to a suggestion that we have no foreign policy or it's a foreign policy of benign neglect.

BOXER: Designed neglect. I didn't say benign neglect.

POWELL: Designed neglect?

BOXER: Designed neglect. Well I don't like that characterization either.

BOXER: Yes, I understand.

KOPPEL: U.S. lawmakers were reacting to North Korea's announcement it intends to restart a five-megawatt reactor and the heart of its nuclear program. And Pyongyang also warned that if the U.S. launches a surprise attack on our peaceful nuclear facilities, that will be the cause of all-out war.

Just last week, U.S. officials said satellite images like these appeared to show trucks moving some of North Korea's 8,000 spent nuclear fuel rods, indicating another step towards building a nuclear arsenal. Now this week, the U.S. and South Korean militaries are involved in a live fire exercise. And the Pentagon confirms U.S. plans to deploy B-52s and B-1s to Guam.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What Secretary Rumsfeld has done in putting those (UNINTELLIGIBLE) on alert is simply to reinforce our deterrent posture, to make sure that North Korea doesn't do anything adventurous or dangerous of a military kind.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL: What is unfortunate, said one senior administration official, is at the moment both sides are involved in exchanging rhetorical remarks. And when North Korea feels threatened or scared, he explained, it puffs up like a blow fish and the danger, this official went on to say, Aaron, is that unless one or both sides backs down, this crisis is sure to escalate even further -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, what the North Koreans want, ultimately, is they want to talk directly to the United States. They don't want intermediaries, they want to talk, and they want something for it. So where is that? Any plan to speak directly to the North Koreans?

KOPPEL: Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage said that that was certainly in the cards. But I spoke to a senior administration official this evening who said, yes, that door is open, but the U.S. is also saying that when it sits down to talk, it's not going to negotiate until North Korea gives up its nuclear weapons program. And so far, Aaron, the north has given no indication it is willing or ready to do so.

BROWN: Andrea, thank you. Andrea Koppel at the State Department tonight.

And ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, more on how the United States should deal with these twin problems: Iraq and North Korea. We'll talk with former U.N. Ambassador Bill Richardson, who is now the governor of New Mexico, about both issues, we hope.

And in about 10 minutes, we'll have the latest on the search for clues in the crash of the Shuttle Columbia. Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: No shortage of questions for our next guest. There is Iraq, the U.N., North Korea, and a whole lot more. So we'll get right to it. Bill Richardson is the guest. He is now the governor of New Mexico.

He's a former U.N. Ambassador, energy secretary, member of Congress, recently the go-between in the Korea standoff talks. And we're always glad to have him with us. Nice to see you, sir.

GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D), NEW MEXICO: Thank you, Aaron.

BROWN: Let's start with Korea, since we were talking about that before we went to break. I said that it seemed to me that one of the things North Koreans want is direct face-to-face talks. It's important to them in a symbolic way, as well as a practical way. Why is that so hard to make happen?

RICHARDSON: Well, because I think right now both sides, especially the North Koreans, are throwing very alarming rhetoric, alarming threats. And I think the administration doesn't want to be in the position of saying they're rewarding these kind of threats and behavior.

I think the solution, Aaron, is for there to be face-to-face talks, not negotiations to set up subsequent negotiations. I think what will cool this rhetoric, what will decompress this very, very delicate North Korea situation is face-to-face talks. That's what the North Koreans want.

They don't want intermediaries, they don't want to go to the United Nations. They don't want China and South Korea to talk to them. They want to talk to the United States. And I think it's reached the point where these direct talks make sense.

BROWN: You were obviously in contact with the State Department during the time that you were having the talks with the North Koreans, and I assume you've had some contact with states since. Why the resistance to sitting down and talking with them if they're not negotiations?

RICHARDSON: Well, I've had my hands full with the New Mexico legislature, so I haven't been too involved since I had the talks with the North Koreans. But do I think the talks -- my prediction is that they will happen soon. I believe that they can't happen before the South Korean president officially takes office till late February. So I think a little bit after that you will see those direct talks.

I think Secretary Powell has been inching in that direction. I believe he should be allowed to pursue that track of negotiations. I don't think going to the United Nations, Aaron, on the North Korea issue is the right way to go, because what you don't want is to inflame the North Koreans. They're very petulant.

I think right now they feel they're not getting enough attention, so they make noise at the same time that we've got the Iraq situation. They make these threats, they're belligerent. But when you sit down and negotiate with them, there's always a give and take. But you have to get to that stage obviously.

BROWN: I want to move to Iraq and specifically the U.N. You were there, you had the job. I'm just sort of curious what's going on now. Are U.N. ambassadors going from office to office, sitting down talking to each other, trying to find the common ground? Or is it all that kind of -- forgive this -- false formality of diplomacy that's going on?

RICHARDSON: No, there's a lot of serious diplomacy going on. Right now the British are taking the lead, as I understand it, in drafting a new resolution that basically declares Iraq in material breach and then moves ahead to the serious consequences. So a lot of diplomacy is going on.

I think one of the major positive aspects of Secretary Powell's speech yesterday was that he moved the French. He moved them a little bit. The French are very skillful at the U.N. Now France is saying that they are ready, for instance, to have more inspectors and that the war option should be the last resort, but that is movement.

Now France had threatened to veto. So what you want to do is get the British up front, we don't want to be up front, move the French our way. Russia I believe in the end will be with us. China likes the consensus. So I do think, however, that it's very important for the Bush administration to continue seeking this resolution at the United Nations.

February 14 is the date that the U.N. inspectors make their final report to the Security Council. So that's a very important date.

BROWN: Just one quick one here. You said we, the United States, does not want to be out front on this. Is that because the United States is an easy sort of lightning rod target in all of this?

RICHARDSON: Yes. Seeing as we've been so aggressive, the United States, you've got to convince China, Russia, France. This is why great Britain is taking the lead. And I think Great Britain also wants a second U.N. resolution because Tony Blair's had some domestic problems in his country. Then you've got to bring in too, Aaron, 10 other countries in the Security Council.

Even though they don't have veto power, you want to get another 14 to nothing vote. So let diplomacy proceed. That's what I would advise the administration. Get that second resolution.

It's not going to be easy. It will take a couple of weeks. But the inspectors February 14 are doing their final report, the inspectors in Iraq. So I don't think they have anything to lose by going to this February 14 deadline and getting the second U.N. resolution.

BROWN: Well we'll let you get back to the legislature and fixing the schools in New Mexico and all the rest. It's good to talk to you. Governor Richardson, thanks again.

RICHARDSON: Thank you, Aaron.

BROWN: And coming up on NEWSNIGHT on a Thursday from New York City, the search for debris and clues it might hold about why the Shuttle Columbia crashed.

This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Human beings tend to like clear, simple explanations to big, complicated mysteries. But the real world is a lot messier than that. And while it may be someday we'll discover the single culprit behind the Columbia disaster, that someday clearly was not today. The latest on the swirl of theories and the hunt for evidence. Here's CNN's Miles O'Brien.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN (voice-over): NASA investigators are relying on an army of amateurs to help them find the cause of Columbia's disintegration. And they admit they need a lucky break. This video was shot in Reno. But as interesting as that may seem, NASA says the jury is out until experts can verify the authenticity of it and dozens of other amateur images. On the ground, the search for debris moved slowly today, as foul weather descended over Texas.

RON DITTEMORE, SHUTTLE PROGRAM MANAGER: So far, more than 1,000 items have been gathered at various locations. And we are in the process of moving these different items into the central location at Barksdale Air Force Base.

O'BRIEN: But shuttle program manager Ron Dittemore says reports of possible shuttle debris in California have not been verified. The farthest west anything has been found, Fort Worth, Texas. So when did Columbia begin breaking apart? NASA computer wizards are analyzing an additional 32 seconds of garbled data captured after mission control lost contact with the crew, hoping it may yield a clue.

DITTEMORE: Don't assume that there's 32 seconds of valid data. It may not be the case. When we get through our analysis of trying to extract information, it may be that you have one or two seconds of good data.

O'BRIEN: Columbia's launch still remains a focus of this investigation. Engineers are still skeptical falling foam was the root cause of Columbia's demise, but they are not discarding the theory either.

DITTEMORE: We are planning testing of foam impact on tiles. We are performing analysis.

O'BRIEN: So, was there something else that struck the shuttle during its rise to orbit? Unfortunately, the team may never know. The focus failed on the camera with potentially the best view.

But what about in orbit? Shuttles are constantly dinged by smaller pieces of space junk. NORAD tracks more than 8,000 larger objects and often advises NASA to change a shuttle's orbit to avoid a collision. Experts say it would take a piece of junk the size of a fist to put the crew in peril.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: Now, this crew was up 24 hours while they were on their mission. It seems likely, if something that big hit the orbiter, they might have heard something and radioed down their concerns to mission control.

And, Aaron, one more thing. NASA administrator Sean O'Keefe today underscored his desire that this investigation be led by that independent team which has been working primarily out of Barksdale Air Force Base and is now here at the Johnson Space Center -- Aaron.

BROWN: That independent team was appointed by NASA, though, wasn't it?

O'BRIEN: It was. It was. And the NASA experts clearly are going to have to help them out. They're having to learn kind of shuttle 101 right now. And, clearly, the data is going to have to come from the experts here. But the independent team will make the final report.

BROWN: Miles, thank you -- Miles O'Brien in Houston tonight.

A few stories from around the country we should get in, beginning with an incident aboard a Northwest Airlines flight out of Detroit today: The plane landed near Baltimore after the crew reported suspicious activity among passengers shortly before landing. The plane arrived under escort of military jets. And federal agents were waiting to board it -- no word, though, on what made the crew suspicious.

And former President Ronald Reagan marked his 92nd birthday at home today. An aide said he is comfortable and doing as well as anyone can expect for a man of 92. A small party was planned for President Reagan, who, of course, is suffering from Alzheimer's.

Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT: an outspoken voice on the possibility of war with Iraq. We'll talk with the author Gore Vidal about his new book, "Dreaming War."

And later: Ed Rosenthal thought he was within the law by growing medical marijuana. That's until the federal government showed up -- his story, too, as NEWSNIGHT continues from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And next on NEWSNIGHT, we're joined by the author Gore Vidal to talk about his new book, "Dreaming War."

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: If all you do or want to do is hear from people who make you feel good or people who agree with you, life, we think, would become a bore.

It is likely that, at some point or another, our next guest has said something you didn't agree with, something that made you angry. He is, after all, a writer and a thinker and we think somewhat of an intellectual street fighter. His latest book is called "Dreaming War: Blood For Oil and the Cheney-Bush Junta."

And we are pleased, again, to welcome Gore Vidal to the program.

It's nice to see you, sir.

GORE VIDAL, AUTHOR, "DREAMING WAR": Good to see you and to note that this is the first TV studio I've been in, in the last couple of months in which there were not six lieutenant colonels in civilian clothes ready to say no.

BROWN: Actually, they're coming in now.

(LAUGHTER)

VIDAL: Oh, hello, Colonel.

BROWN: All right.

We actually -- you could almost do an entire interview on the title of the book, but I don't want to do that. Do you really think that it is as simple as a war about oil?

VIDAL: Nothing is simple in this life. Ostensibly, yes, it is about oil.

And Mr. Brzezinski, in '97, I think it was, wrote a little book called "The Great Chess Game" in which he outlined the necessity for the United States to take over Eurasia, which is those nice countries that all end in the word stan, because they are the greatest oil reserves in the world. And that is precisely what we did.

Afghanistan is the gateway, as well as where the pipelines are going to go. And now switching over to Iraq has been puzzling. But the lies being told are sometimes so gratuitous. I mean, Saddam Hussein, I'm willing to say, is the most evil man that ever drew breath. But he had nothing to do with 9/11. But 70 percent of the American people now think he did because of the word out of Washington. They just keep repeating it.

BROWN: Well, but they don't say he had anything to do with 9/11.

VIDAL: Oh, yes. He makes weapons. He gives them to nasty people to use against us and so on.

There's no proof of this. And this is why the Europeans, some of them, are being so disagreeable about us. I don't see that there's any proof. I'm a veteran of the Second World War. And there are not many of us left, but we are practically unanimous -- and, God knows, we're not alike -- in our dislike of this war.

BROWN: Let me try this.

Why is it not in fact a great liberal position to take that the people of Iraq live in an incredibly oppressive state, under an incredibly vicious dictator, and that, in fact, the great liberal position would be, in the interest of their human rights, to liberate them?

VIDAL: I will answer with words more beautiful than mine.

I have a short sentence from President John Quincy Adams. In the 1820s, he was asked, would the United States join with some European powers in getting the Turks to free the Greeks. He said no. And the reason he gave is -- one of the colonels asked me, "Where is this guy coming from?" when I said I was against the war.

This is President Adams: "The United States goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is a well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. If the United States took up all foreign affairs, it would become entangled in all the wars of interest and intrigue, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. She might become the dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own soul."

And that is where I'm coming from.

BROWN: I'm not sure, honestly -- I don't want to fight with you much.

VIDAL: Or Adams.

BROWN: A little bit, I wouldn't mind. Well, he can't.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: But I'm not sure you really answered the question. So, don't answer it historically. Just tell me why the liberal position -- a sort of honest liberal position here is not: You have this country, people who are oppressed, who are tortured, killed. We don't even argue about those things. We all agree on, this is a bad regime. Why not free those people?

VIDAL: Well, what business is it of ours?

We have such a mess here. We're in the midst of a depression. We have one million people looking for work -- who have stopped looking for work, rather, and are not registered. We're in a terrible state and we haven't got the money for the war, just to start with that.

This is no business of ours, except if we're being sly and, for once, fighting a war for something, which is, of course, oil, as reserves are being depleted everywhere in the world. Well, that is -- greed, I agree with. If we need the stuff, go out and get it. We've been saying that all countries have done this.

But I don't think it's that imminent, nor do I think it a good idea for us to be as hated as we are. There are one billion Muslims. That seems to me like a lot of people to take on, not to mention the Europeans, who think we're out of our heads. We don't need a war.

BROWN: Thirty seconds, no more, OK? You feel like the war is going to happen, don't you?

VIDAL: Twenty-four February, I think I was told by somebody who's always wrong.

BROWN: Twenty-four February?

VIDAL: Yes.

BROWN: I'll be back from Kuwait by then.

I think we all hope it doesn't happen, but I think the feeling is, it's going down.

VIDAL: It's coming along. I've never seen this happen in American history. There's never been anything like it.

A president picks an enemy. He knows they're terrorists, connected with terrorism, no proof, bad people. The world is full of bad people. The world is full of bad governments. If we want to start in Africa, South America, Southeast Asia, you can find plenty of Saddams to go after. I'd rather go after the junta in Washington and replace them.

BROWN: We'll leave it at that.

Mr. Vidal, it's good to see you.

VIDAL: Good to see you.

BROWN: Get that knee fixed, OK?

(LAUGHTER)

VIDAL: Another operation.

BROWN: Thank you -- Gore Vidal with us tonight.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT: the strange case of Ed Rosenthal. The state of California said he was growing medical marijuana legally. The federal government thought differently.

A short break and NEWSNIGHT continues from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Coming up on NEWSNIGHT: the clash of marijuana laws and the man caught in the middle.

This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: I always want to comment on that, but I don't get them all.

The next story is two great debates wrapped up in one story. The debate on the surface dates back a few decades: whether sick people should have legal access to marijuana. But the debate underneath dates back a few centuries: just how much the federal government in Washington can tell the people out in the states what to do.

In California, one man is caught up in both debates.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): Ed Rosenthal is a drug dealer. That is true. But the real question is different: Is he a criminal?

The federal government tried and convicted him last week of growing and selling marijuana, and he did both. Still, in California, many, many people, including local prosecutors, see him not as a criminal, but as a victim.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We must not let this verdict stand.

BROWN: Rosenthal was growing pot with the full knowledge of the city of Oakland. They were partners in getting medical marijuana to sick people, legal in the state, but against federal law. And the feds made an example of Ed Rosenthal.

ED ROSENTHAL, MEDICAL MARIJUANA ADVOCATE: It's a terrible situation when a citizen, conducting business, being told that what he's doing is legal, is then arrested for it. It can happen to anybody.

BROWN: To win their case, federal prosecutors had only to prove that Rosenthal grew and sold the drug. The jury was never told, and the judge barred the defense from telling them, that the pot was sanctioned by the city and the state and intended only for those who are sick. Under federal law, the reasons didn't matter.

TIMOTHY LYNCH THE CATO INSTITUTE: The DEA and federal prosecutors have very grandiose ideas about how far federal jurisdiction extends. They will say that it extends to all drug cases, no matter how small they are, no matter how local in scope.

BROWN: What the jury didn't know in the trial, it learned immediately after the verdict. And many of those jurors felt cheated, denied the entire picture of the case.

CHARLES SACKETT, JUROR: I ask myself how I could have allowed myself to juror in such a case where the outcome was so deliberately stacked against state rights and patient rights from the beginning.

MARNEY CRAIG, JUROR: We were sent into the jury room with half the evidence and expected to come up with a fair and just verdict. This did not happen.

CROWD: Ed, we love you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And Ed Rosenthal joins us tonight from San Francisco. It's good to have you with us.

Was the jury -- did prosecutors tell the jury why they thought you were selling this marijuana, by the way?

ROSENTHAL: No, they didn't. They didn't feel that they needed to. They just had to prove that I was growing the marijuana.

BROWN: OK, so they didn't present a theory that you were just some street drug dealer. They let jurors think whatever they thought.

ROSENTHAL: That's right. It really didn't matter to them. Just the fact that I was growing it was enough.

BROWN: And you're sitting there in this trial and this is going on. Didn't you want to get up and scream, hey, wait a second; there's a small fact you don't know, or several?

ROSENTHAL: Well, we thought that the judge would allow some of our evidence in. We were really disappointed when the court decided that we couldn't present any of our evidence. It was very frustrating.

BROWN: And they didn't know that you worked with the city of Oakland. And, in fact, is there not within even federal law an area where, if you are an agent of the government, you are exempt, essentially, from some of these drug laws?

ROSENTHAL: Yes. That's a provision of the federal law. It's 18-USC -- Title 18 USC-885(d). And that exempt officers of the city from criminal activities when they're carrying out health and safety regulations.

BROWN: And you would argue, and I gather Oakland would support the argument, that you were an agent of the city?

ROSENTHAL: Yes. As a matter of fact, the assistant attorney for Oakland testified at the hearings that I was an officer of the city and that I should be exempt.

BROWN: And the judge did not allow that testimony before the jury either?

ROSENTHAL: That's right.

BROWN: Because?

ROSENTHAL: Well, he said that she wasn't a federal officer, so she wasn't authorized to make that determination. And when we tried to bring a federal officer into the court, the judge quashed the subpoena.

BROWN: Where do you go from here? You appeal this, certainly, right, to the 9th Circuit?

ROSENTHAL: Well, yes. We think that there were a lot of improprieties, both in the grand jury actions, as well as in the trial. And my attorneys assure me that it will be overturned.

BROWN: Well, it's unusual for attorneys to be that certain. The Supreme Court has spoken on this question. And it does seem to me it has sided with the federal government over the states. Why are the attorneys so certain you're going to walk?

ROSENTHAL: Well, they think that there were so many improprieties at the trial and before the trial, that it reeks.

BROWN: Can you give me a sense of what the improprieties were?

ROSENTHAL: For instance, the prosecutor, AUSA Bevan, testified at the grand jury. And a prosecutor isn't supposed to testify. Once he testified, he should have recused himself from the grand jury.

BROWN: Anyway, this goes to the 9th Circuit. And you're looking at five years if you don't win. We appreciate your time. And, as we always do with guests, we wish you good luck.

Thanks a lot, Ed Rosenthal, in San Francisco tonight, in one of those cases.

Still ahead, segment seven is around the corner. Tonight: a memorial for the lost astronauts and a new anthem for the space program. You'll want to stay with us.

This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Finally from us tonight: a memorial today for the seven lost astronauts, this one at the National Cathedral in Washington.

The song you'll hear, sung by Patti LaBelle was actually commissioned by NASA to mark the 100th anniversary of the Wright Brothers' first flight. That song now commemorates both the triumph and the tragedy of Columbia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We are here today to honor the memory of seven lost explorers; to mourn seven good men and women; and to offer the respects of a grateful nation.

PATTI LABELLE, SINGER (singing): Way, way up there, where peace remains.

Saturday morning brought terrible news to all Americans, and the flag of our country was lowered to half-staff in honor of our fallen Columbia astronauts.

LABELLE (singing): And amazing grace bring us closer to our home in space. COL. ROBERT D. CABANA, MARINE CORPS: This was a special and diverse crew of mixed ethnicity, gender, and religious belief, bound as one in pursuit of a common and noble goal: to improve life for all of us here on planet Earth through the science they were conducted in space.

LABELLE (singing): We look behind us at the wonder of the Earth only to remind us where God gave birth

SEAN O'KEEFE, NASA ADMINISTRATOR: Every time we send humans into space, our astronauts look up to the starry firmament, seeking to extend our horizons throughout the vast expanse of God's creation.

Our explorers go forward into the unknown with hope and faith. As commander Rick Husband said, there is no way that you can look at the stars, at the Earth, at the moon, and not come to realize there is a God out there.

LABELLE (singing): Bring us closer to our home in space.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Good to have you with us. We'll see you tomorrow.

Good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired February 6, 2003 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening again, everyone. Just a few seconds at the top tonight, because this really is off (ph) the news but shouldn't go unnoticed. Ten years ago today, the great Arthur Ashe died. Ten years. We don't use the word "great" a lot, and we did not in Mr. Ashes' case say "great athlete." Arthur Ashe was more than that.
You probably remember many of the facts of his life. A child of segregated Richmond. He went on to become a great tennis champion. A black man in a very white sport. He was an activist, he had an extraordinary passion for ending apartheid in South Africa.

He contracted AIDS from a blood transfusion, but he had a lot of health problems even before that. And in those days, AIDS killed very quickly and Arthur Ashe was taken.

There was a fuss of some size over a statue erected in his honor in Richmond, though people will deny it was, of course, about race. We can't escape that subject. And Arthur Ashe knew that better than most. We've talked an awful lot lately about heroes, about bravery and courage. Arthur Ashe was great American hero, and we lost him 10 years ago today.

On to the news of the day. And Iraq begins the program and "The Whip" once again. Today brought the toughest talk yet from the president. Our senior White House correspondent John King with us tonight. John, a headline.

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the president put it about as bluntly as you can. He said flatly today Saddam Hussein will be stopped. The president also said the game is over. The only question, it seems, from Mr. Bush's perspective is whether the United Nations Security Council will join the fight or, as he put it, continue to be "defied and mocked by a dictator" -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you. Back to you at the top tonight.

The latest from another nation included by the president in the so-called axis of evil, North Korea. Andrea Koppel following the developments today from the State Department. Andrea, a headline.

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, just yesterday it was Secretary Powell who put Iraq on notice and taking the offense. One day later on Capitol Hill, it was Secretary Powell who was grilled by Senate Democrats. Not so much on Iraq as on North Korea. BROWN: Andrea, thank you.

On to the investigation into what brought down the Shuttle Columbia. Miles O'Brien of course on that. Miles, a headline from you tonight.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Aaron, if you had the sense finding the solution to what caused Columbia to disintegrate would come fast or easy, you are sorely mistaken. Today NASA investigators say nothing has been ruled out. And one person close to the investigation told me, "We could use a lucky break."

BROWN: Miles, thank you very much. Back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up tonight on NEWSNIGHT for the 6th February, a sparing view of the United States, the push to confront Iraq, and how the world looks at America. We'll talk with Gore Vidal, who is likely to incense more than a few of you. We'll look forward to the e-mails.

And the man who has been described as the pot head's answer to Anne Landers, Ed Rosenthal, who is caught up in a battle between the federal government and the laws of the state of California over growing marijuana for sick people. That and more coming up in the hour ahead.

But we being with an item, a small one perhaps in the larger picture, but it raised a chill like nothing else today. For the first time in its history, the Pentagon is considering the possibility that if war comes, fallen soldiers may have to be cremated because of contamination from chemical or biological attacks. And because, if it comes to that, the number of dead may be overwhelming.

Chilling as it was, telling as it is, this was just one of many larger developments today. All of them sending much the same message: this is serious, time is running out. We begin at the White House. And here's CNN's John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): The president's tough statement included this impatient challenge to the United Nations.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Having made its demands, the Security Council must not back down when those demands are defied and mocked by a dictator.

KING: The late afternoon appearance was designed to echo the key points of Secretary of State Powell's U.N. presentation.

BUSH: We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons.

KING: Mr. Bush says there now should be no doubt that Iraq has active chemical and biological weapons programs, is hiding evidence from U.N. inspectors, and allowing an al Qaeda terrorist cell to operate out of Baghdad. The president said he would welcome a second Security Council resolution, but only if it backs up the threat of force in the first resolution. And he voiced no patience for those who say inspectors deserve more time.

BUSH: The dictator of Iraq is making his choice. Now the nations of the Security Council must make their own.

KING: Earlier, Secretary Powell told Congress preparations for war include going on alert for retaliatory terrorist strikes in the United States and across the Middle East.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We are talking to all of our friends in the region who might be subject to that kind of disturbance within their countries to making sure that they understand the threat and the consequences.

KING: A day after Powell's presentation to the United Nations, the administration said there is growing evidence the U.S. view on Iraq is gaining support. Mr. Bush began his day at Washington's annual prayer breakfast. In his thoughts, the troops he might soon order into combat.

BUSH: One thing is for certain. We didn't ask for these challenge, but we will meet them.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: And as part of its tough line, the White House is flatly dismissing Iraq's decision today to allow one of its scientists to be interviewed in private by the U.N. weapons inspectors. Senior officials here say occasional cooperation simply will not cut it. And the president warned of what he called a, "last-minute game of deception." Then Mr. Bush quickly added, "The game is over" -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well you have Mr. Blix in Baghdad over the weekend. It has all the feeling of the beginning of the end game. And then on the 14th back to the U.N. Is the administration now -- will they ramp up, I guess, their campaign, their -- excuse the expression -- PR effort?

KING: It certainly will. Secretary Powell and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice will be out on the talk shows here in the United States this Sunday. They also increasingly are making international television appearances. Condoleezza Rice, for example, giving an interview with the French TV station TV3 (ph) in the recent days.

All of this designed to ramp up pressure on the allies overseas. And we are told tonight that the United States is already working with Great Britain on that second resolution. Great Britain will take the lead, we are told, within a day or so, or perhaps even within hours or so of that presentation by Dr. Blix on the 14th. Look for a second resolution.

The only way it will be pulled back is if the United States is convinced it will be vetoed. Here they're voicing cautious optimism that if Dr. Blix once again said Iraq is not fully cooperating, that France and Russia and other will come around -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you. We won't keep you out in the weather any longer. Senior White House correspondent John King at the White House tonight in snowy Washington.

The Army's 101st airborne division got the call today, not surprisingly. It was alerted to expect orders in a matter of days to send it to the Gulf. That's 270 choppers and 20,000 troops. The Screaming Eagles as they are called. Many saw action in Afghanistan. The unit enjoys an elite tradition dating back to D-day, when 14,0000 members of the 101st dropped behind enemy lines at Normandy.

There were tough words today from the U.N. weapons inspectors, Hans Blix and Mohamed ElBaradei, who will be in Baghdad by Saturday. They were in London today. And after a meeting with Britain's Prime Minister Blair, Mr. ElBaradei said Iraq needs to show drastic change in terms of cooperation. Mr. Blix said the clock was ticking. But he also made a point of noting the U.N. clock and White House clock aren't necessarily operating at the same speed.

In Iraq today, there was a step that seemed on the surface at least to address a major concern of the inspectors. You heard John King refer to it. A scientist agreed to be interviewed without a government minder in the room. In a moment, you'll hear a top Iraqi official say the man is taking a big risk, to which many who know the way things work in Iraq would say, yes, in more ways than one. Here's CNN's Nic Robertson.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Emerging from a Baghdad hotel, Iraq's first scientist to hold a private interview with U.N. inspectors was quickly hustled away by Iraqi officials. Biologist Dr. Salame (ph), agreed to the late-night talks, Iraqi officials say, because he was concerned about pressure on Iraq.

GENERAL AMER AL-SA'ADI, HUSSEIN SCIENTIFIC ADVISER: He's taking a risk, of course. We don't know what's going to happen.

ROBERTSON: The announcement came during al-Sa-adi's news conference, rebutting U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell's address to the U.N.

AL-SA'ADI: The purpose of the show that was -- that went on inside the Security Council was mainly for home consumption, for the uninformed.

ROBERTSON: Using copies of Powell's satellite images, he attempted to show mistakes.

AL-SA'ADI: These are true pictures, but they are of another missile, which is not (UNINTELLIGIBLE). It is in the range of about 70 kilometers.

ROBERTSON: A spokesman for the foreign ministry denying links to al Qaeda, saying Iraq had tried to help round up the terrorists.

AMB. SAYED AL MOUSAWI, SPOKESMAN, IRAQI FOREIGN MINISTRY (through translator): The Iraqi authorities concerned were instructed to look for them and make exceptional efforts.

ROBERTSON: Accusations also from the officials that Powell's speech compromised the credibility of the inspectors.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to prove their independence, their professionalism. They have to say in a brave manner that all those allegations are lies and prove nothing that Iraq is keeping any proscribed weapons of mass destruction.

ROBERTSON (on camera): Such tough talk seems to contradict the new apparent cooperation to meet U.N. demands too interview scientists. U.N. officials say, however, when Mohamed ElBaradei and Hans Blix, the two U.N. weapons chiefs, arrive here this weekend, they'll be expecting Iraqi officials to resolve two other outstanding issues: the use of U-2 surveillance aircraft and the passage of legislation outlawing weapons of mass destruction. Nic Robertson, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Well, with the possibility of war quickly becoming a likelihood, the State Department is warning Americans living and traveling overseas to be on guard. Again, as John King mentioned, the State Department believes there is a heightened threat of terrorism, including suicide bombings and assassinations. The warning also speaks to the growing threat of chemical or biological attacks. The concern is shared back home tonight. Reporting for us, CNN's Kelli Arena.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. officials are increasingly concerned about the possibility of a chemical or biological attack, like the sarin gas attacks in the Tokyo subway in 1995. Officials tell CNN there has been a spate of intelligence from a variety of sources in recent weeks suggesting there could be such an attack in the United States in the near future. The information does not single out any specific chemical agent or target, but officials are mostly concerned about so-called soft targets, such as sports arenas and amusement parks.

KENNETH KATZMAN, CONGRESSIONAL RESEARCH SERVICE: They could also try attacks on shopping malls, like the mall of America or something, some corporate headquarters. Anything that they feel will have a tremendous shock value really.

ARENA: Recent arrests in London have focused attention on the deadly toxin ricin. It is readily available and easy to manipulate. In his speech before the United Nations, Secretary of State Colin Powell spoke bluntly about the threat.

POWELL: Death comes within 72 hours and there is no antidote, there is no cure.

ARENA: The new intelligence led to a new State Department warning to U.S. citizens living abroad, but it has not yet led to an increase in the national threat level.

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The alert remains at the elevated level of yellow. And depending on the quantity or quality of information, if there are any changes to be announced, they would get announced each day. There is nothing that would change it today.

ARENA: That's no to say it won't be raised someday soon. Fleischer did point out that the Muslim pilgrimage season known as (UNINTELLIGIBLE) starts next week. A period during which he says an individual could subvert the Muslim message of peace and attack. Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: On to the crisis with North Korea, if crisis is a word you're comfortable with. More threatening noises from Pyongyang today. And criticism from lawmakers at home. The administration continues to battle allegations it is treating the standoff more like a distraction than the potential catastrophe it represents. Here again, CNN's Andrea Koppel.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL (voice-over): One day after turning the tables on Iraq, Secretary of State Powell found the tables turned on him, criticized by congressional Democrats for not doing enough to diffuse a growing crisis with North Korea.

SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: I also think that North Korea is equally, equally as urgent a problem as Saddam Hussein at the moment.

SEN. BARBARA BOXER (D), CALIFORNIA: I see a doctrine that appears to me to be one of designed neglect.

POWELL: I simply cannot sit here and not respond to a suggestion that we have no foreign policy or it's a foreign policy of benign neglect.

BOXER: Designed neglect. I didn't say benign neglect.

POWELL: Designed neglect?

BOXER: Designed neglect. Well I don't like that characterization either.

BOXER: Yes, I understand.

KOPPEL: U.S. lawmakers were reacting to North Korea's announcement it intends to restart a five-megawatt reactor and the heart of its nuclear program. And Pyongyang also warned that if the U.S. launches a surprise attack on our peaceful nuclear facilities, that will be the cause of all-out war.

Just last week, U.S. officials said satellite images like these appeared to show trucks moving some of North Korea's 8,000 spent nuclear fuel rods, indicating another step towards building a nuclear arsenal. Now this week, the U.S. and South Korean militaries are involved in a live fire exercise. And the Pentagon confirms U.S. plans to deploy B-52s and B-1s to Guam.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What Secretary Rumsfeld has done in putting those (UNINTELLIGIBLE) on alert is simply to reinforce our deterrent posture, to make sure that North Korea doesn't do anything adventurous or dangerous of a military kind.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL: What is unfortunate, said one senior administration official, is at the moment both sides are involved in exchanging rhetorical remarks. And when North Korea feels threatened or scared, he explained, it puffs up like a blow fish and the danger, this official went on to say, Aaron, is that unless one or both sides backs down, this crisis is sure to escalate even further -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, what the North Koreans want, ultimately, is they want to talk directly to the United States. They don't want intermediaries, they want to talk, and they want something for it. So where is that? Any plan to speak directly to the North Koreans?

KOPPEL: Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage said that that was certainly in the cards. But I spoke to a senior administration official this evening who said, yes, that door is open, but the U.S. is also saying that when it sits down to talk, it's not going to negotiate until North Korea gives up its nuclear weapons program. And so far, Aaron, the north has given no indication it is willing or ready to do so.

BROWN: Andrea, thank you. Andrea Koppel at the State Department tonight.

And ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, more on how the United States should deal with these twin problems: Iraq and North Korea. We'll talk with former U.N. Ambassador Bill Richardson, who is now the governor of New Mexico, about both issues, we hope.

And in about 10 minutes, we'll have the latest on the search for clues in the crash of the Shuttle Columbia. Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: No shortage of questions for our next guest. There is Iraq, the U.N., North Korea, and a whole lot more. So we'll get right to it. Bill Richardson is the guest. He is now the governor of New Mexico.

He's a former U.N. Ambassador, energy secretary, member of Congress, recently the go-between in the Korea standoff talks. And we're always glad to have him with us. Nice to see you, sir.

GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D), NEW MEXICO: Thank you, Aaron.

BROWN: Let's start with Korea, since we were talking about that before we went to break. I said that it seemed to me that one of the things North Koreans want is direct face-to-face talks. It's important to them in a symbolic way, as well as a practical way. Why is that so hard to make happen?

RICHARDSON: Well, because I think right now both sides, especially the North Koreans, are throwing very alarming rhetoric, alarming threats. And I think the administration doesn't want to be in the position of saying they're rewarding these kind of threats and behavior.

I think the solution, Aaron, is for there to be face-to-face talks, not negotiations to set up subsequent negotiations. I think what will cool this rhetoric, what will decompress this very, very delicate North Korea situation is face-to-face talks. That's what the North Koreans want.

They don't want intermediaries, they don't want to go to the United Nations. They don't want China and South Korea to talk to them. They want to talk to the United States. And I think it's reached the point where these direct talks make sense.

BROWN: You were obviously in contact with the State Department during the time that you were having the talks with the North Koreans, and I assume you've had some contact with states since. Why the resistance to sitting down and talking with them if they're not negotiations?

RICHARDSON: Well, I've had my hands full with the New Mexico legislature, so I haven't been too involved since I had the talks with the North Koreans. But do I think the talks -- my prediction is that they will happen soon. I believe that they can't happen before the South Korean president officially takes office till late February. So I think a little bit after that you will see those direct talks.

I think Secretary Powell has been inching in that direction. I believe he should be allowed to pursue that track of negotiations. I don't think going to the United Nations, Aaron, on the North Korea issue is the right way to go, because what you don't want is to inflame the North Koreans. They're very petulant.

I think right now they feel they're not getting enough attention, so they make noise at the same time that we've got the Iraq situation. They make these threats, they're belligerent. But when you sit down and negotiate with them, there's always a give and take. But you have to get to that stage obviously.

BROWN: I want to move to Iraq and specifically the U.N. You were there, you had the job. I'm just sort of curious what's going on now. Are U.N. ambassadors going from office to office, sitting down talking to each other, trying to find the common ground? Or is it all that kind of -- forgive this -- false formality of diplomacy that's going on?

RICHARDSON: No, there's a lot of serious diplomacy going on. Right now the British are taking the lead, as I understand it, in drafting a new resolution that basically declares Iraq in material breach and then moves ahead to the serious consequences. So a lot of diplomacy is going on.

I think one of the major positive aspects of Secretary Powell's speech yesterday was that he moved the French. He moved them a little bit. The French are very skillful at the U.N. Now France is saying that they are ready, for instance, to have more inspectors and that the war option should be the last resort, but that is movement.

Now France had threatened to veto. So what you want to do is get the British up front, we don't want to be up front, move the French our way. Russia I believe in the end will be with us. China likes the consensus. So I do think, however, that it's very important for the Bush administration to continue seeking this resolution at the United Nations.

February 14 is the date that the U.N. inspectors make their final report to the Security Council. So that's a very important date.

BROWN: Just one quick one here. You said we, the United States, does not want to be out front on this. Is that because the United States is an easy sort of lightning rod target in all of this?

RICHARDSON: Yes. Seeing as we've been so aggressive, the United States, you've got to convince China, Russia, France. This is why great Britain is taking the lead. And I think Great Britain also wants a second U.N. resolution because Tony Blair's had some domestic problems in his country. Then you've got to bring in too, Aaron, 10 other countries in the Security Council.

Even though they don't have veto power, you want to get another 14 to nothing vote. So let diplomacy proceed. That's what I would advise the administration. Get that second resolution.

It's not going to be easy. It will take a couple of weeks. But the inspectors February 14 are doing their final report, the inspectors in Iraq. So I don't think they have anything to lose by going to this February 14 deadline and getting the second U.N. resolution.

BROWN: Well we'll let you get back to the legislature and fixing the schools in New Mexico and all the rest. It's good to talk to you. Governor Richardson, thanks again.

RICHARDSON: Thank you, Aaron.

BROWN: And coming up on NEWSNIGHT on a Thursday from New York City, the search for debris and clues it might hold about why the Shuttle Columbia crashed.

This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Human beings tend to like clear, simple explanations to big, complicated mysteries. But the real world is a lot messier than that. And while it may be someday we'll discover the single culprit behind the Columbia disaster, that someday clearly was not today. The latest on the swirl of theories and the hunt for evidence. Here's CNN's Miles O'Brien.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN (voice-over): NASA investigators are relying on an army of amateurs to help them find the cause of Columbia's disintegration. And they admit they need a lucky break. This video was shot in Reno. But as interesting as that may seem, NASA says the jury is out until experts can verify the authenticity of it and dozens of other amateur images. On the ground, the search for debris moved slowly today, as foul weather descended over Texas.

RON DITTEMORE, SHUTTLE PROGRAM MANAGER: So far, more than 1,000 items have been gathered at various locations. And we are in the process of moving these different items into the central location at Barksdale Air Force Base.

O'BRIEN: But shuttle program manager Ron Dittemore says reports of possible shuttle debris in California have not been verified. The farthest west anything has been found, Fort Worth, Texas. So when did Columbia begin breaking apart? NASA computer wizards are analyzing an additional 32 seconds of garbled data captured after mission control lost contact with the crew, hoping it may yield a clue.

DITTEMORE: Don't assume that there's 32 seconds of valid data. It may not be the case. When we get through our analysis of trying to extract information, it may be that you have one or two seconds of good data.

O'BRIEN: Columbia's launch still remains a focus of this investigation. Engineers are still skeptical falling foam was the root cause of Columbia's demise, but they are not discarding the theory either.

DITTEMORE: We are planning testing of foam impact on tiles. We are performing analysis.

O'BRIEN: So, was there something else that struck the shuttle during its rise to orbit? Unfortunately, the team may never know. The focus failed on the camera with potentially the best view.

But what about in orbit? Shuttles are constantly dinged by smaller pieces of space junk. NORAD tracks more than 8,000 larger objects and often advises NASA to change a shuttle's orbit to avoid a collision. Experts say it would take a piece of junk the size of a fist to put the crew in peril.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: Now, this crew was up 24 hours while they were on their mission. It seems likely, if something that big hit the orbiter, they might have heard something and radioed down their concerns to mission control.

And, Aaron, one more thing. NASA administrator Sean O'Keefe today underscored his desire that this investigation be led by that independent team which has been working primarily out of Barksdale Air Force Base and is now here at the Johnson Space Center -- Aaron.

BROWN: That independent team was appointed by NASA, though, wasn't it?

O'BRIEN: It was. It was. And the NASA experts clearly are going to have to help them out. They're having to learn kind of shuttle 101 right now. And, clearly, the data is going to have to come from the experts here. But the independent team will make the final report.

BROWN: Miles, thank you -- Miles O'Brien in Houston tonight.

A few stories from around the country we should get in, beginning with an incident aboard a Northwest Airlines flight out of Detroit today: The plane landed near Baltimore after the crew reported suspicious activity among passengers shortly before landing. The plane arrived under escort of military jets. And federal agents were waiting to board it -- no word, though, on what made the crew suspicious.

And former President Ronald Reagan marked his 92nd birthday at home today. An aide said he is comfortable and doing as well as anyone can expect for a man of 92. A small party was planned for President Reagan, who, of course, is suffering from Alzheimer's.

Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT: an outspoken voice on the possibility of war with Iraq. We'll talk with the author Gore Vidal about his new book, "Dreaming War."

And later: Ed Rosenthal thought he was within the law by growing medical marijuana. That's until the federal government showed up -- his story, too, as NEWSNIGHT continues from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And next on NEWSNIGHT, we're joined by the author Gore Vidal to talk about his new book, "Dreaming War."

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: If all you do or want to do is hear from people who make you feel good or people who agree with you, life, we think, would become a bore.

It is likely that, at some point or another, our next guest has said something you didn't agree with, something that made you angry. He is, after all, a writer and a thinker and we think somewhat of an intellectual street fighter. His latest book is called "Dreaming War: Blood For Oil and the Cheney-Bush Junta."

And we are pleased, again, to welcome Gore Vidal to the program.

It's nice to see you, sir.

GORE VIDAL, AUTHOR, "DREAMING WAR": Good to see you and to note that this is the first TV studio I've been in, in the last couple of months in which there were not six lieutenant colonels in civilian clothes ready to say no.

BROWN: Actually, they're coming in now.

(LAUGHTER)

VIDAL: Oh, hello, Colonel.

BROWN: All right.

We actually -- you could almost do an entire interview on the title of the book, but I don't want to do that. Do you really think that it is as simple as a war about oil?

VIDAL: Nothing is simple in this life. Ostensibly, yes, it is about oil.

And Mr. Brzezinski, in '97, I think it was, wrote a little book called "The Great Chess Game" in which he outlined the necessity for the United States to take over Eurasia, which is those nice countries that all end in the word stan, because they are the greatest oil reserves in the world. And that is precisely what we did.

Afghanistan is the gateway, as well as where the pipelines are going to go. And now switching over to Iraq has been puzzling. But the lies being told are sometimes so gratuitous. I mean, Saddam Hussein, I'm willing to say, is the most evil man that ever drew breath. But he had nothing to do with 9/11. But 70 percent of the American people now think he did because of the word out of Washington. They just keep repeating it.

BROWN: Well, but they don't say he had anything to do with 9/11.

VIDAL: Oh, yes. He makes weapons. He gives them to nasty people to use against us and so on.

There's no proof of this. And this is why the Europeans, some of them, are being so disagreeable about us. I don't see that there's any proof. I'm a veteran of the Second World War. And there are not many of us left, but we are practically unanimous -- and, God knows, we're not alike -- in our dislike of this war.

BROWN: Let me try this.

Why is it not in fact a great liberal position to take that the people of Iraq live in an incredibly oppressive state, under an incredibly vicious dictator, and that, in fact, the great liberal position would be, in the interest of their human rights, to liberate them?

VIDAL: I will answer with words more beautiful than mine.

I have a short sentence from President John Quincy Adams. In the 1820s, he was asked, would the United States join with some European powers in getting the Turks to free the Greeks. He said no. And the reason he gave is -- one of the colonels asked me, "Where is this guy coming from?" when I said I was against the war.

This is President Adams: "The United States goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is a well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. If the United States took up all foreign affairs, it would become entangled in all the wars of interest and intrigue, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. She might become the dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own soul."

And that is where I'm coming from.

BROWN: I'm not sure, honestly -- I don't want to fight with you much.

VIDAL: Or Adams.

BROWN: A little bit, I wouldn't mind. Well, he can't.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: But I'm not sure you really answered the question. So, don't answer it historically. Just tell me why the liberal position -- a sort of honest liberal position here is not: You have this country, people who are oppressed, who are tortured, killed. We don't even argue about those things. We all agree on, this is a bad regime. Why not free those people?

VIDAL: Well, what business is it of ours?

We have such a mess here. We're in the midst of a depression. We have one million people looking for work -- who have stopped looking for work, rather, and are not registered. We're in a terrible state and we haven't got the money for the war, just to start with that.

This is no business of ours, except if we're being sly and, for once, fighting a war for something, which is, of course, oil, as reserves are being depleted everywhere in the world. Well, that is -- greed, I agree with. If we need the stuff, go out and get it. We've been saying that all countries have done this.

But I don't think it's that imminent, nor do I think it a good idea for us to be as hated as we are. There are one billion Muslims. That seems to me like a lot of people to take on, not to mention the Europeans, who think we're out of our heads. We don't need a war.

BROWN: Thirty seconds, no more, OK? You feel like the war is going to happen, don't you?

VIDAL: Twenty-four February, I think I was told by somebody who's always wrong.

BROWN: Twenty-four February?

VIDAL: Yes.

BROWN: I'll be back from Kuwait by then.

I think we all hope it doesn't happen, but I think the feeling is, it's going down.

VIDAL: It's coming along. I've never seen this happen in American history. There's never been anything like it.

A president picks an enemy. He knows they're terrorists, connected with terrorism, no proof, bad people. The world is full of bad people. The world is full of bad governments. If we want to start in Africa, South America, Southeast Asia, you can find plenty of Saddams to go after. I'd rather go after the junta in Washington and replace them.

BROWN: We'll leave it at that.

Mr. Vidal, it's good to see you.

VIDAL: Good to see you.

BROWN: Get that knee fixed, OK?

(LAUGHTER)

VIDAL: Another operation.

BROWN: Thank you -- Gore Vidal with us tonight.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT: the strange case of Ed Rosenthal. The state of California said he was growing medical marijuana legally. The federal government thought differently.

A short break and NEWSNIGHT continues from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Coming up on NEWSNIGHT: the clash of marijuana laws and the man caught in the middle.

This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: I always want to comment on that, but I don't get them all.

The next story is two great debates wrapped up in one story. The debate on the surface dates back a few decades: whether sick people should have legal access to marijuana. But the debate underneath dates back a few centuries: just how much the federal government in Washington can tell the people out in the states what to do.

In California, one man is caught up in both debates.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): Ed Rosenthal is a drug dealer. That is true. But the real question is different: Is he a criminal?

The federal government tried and convicted him last week of growing and selling marijuana, and he did both. Still, in California, many, many people, including local prosecutors, see him not as a criminal, but as a victim.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We must not let this verdict stand.

BROWN: Rosenthal was growing pot with the full knowledge of the city of Oakland. They were partners in getting medical marijuana to sick people, legal in the state, but against federal law. And the feds made an example of Ed Rosenthal.

ED ROSENTHAL, MEDICAL MARIJUANA ADVOCATE: It's a terrible situation when a citizen, conducting business, being told that what he's doing is legal, is then arrested for it. It can happen to anybody.

BROWN: To win their case, federal prosecutors had only to prove that Rosenthal grew and sold the drug. The jury was never told, and the judge barred the defense from telling them, that the pot was sanctioned by the city and the state and intended only for those who are sick. Under federal law, the reasons didn't matter.

TIMOTHY LYNCH THE CATO INSTITUTE: The DEA and federal prosecutors have very grandiose ideas about how far federal jurisdiction extends. They will say that it extends to all drug cases, no matter how small they are, no matter how local in scope.

BROWN: What the jury didn't know in the trial, it learned immediately after the verdict. And many of those jurors felt cheated, denied the entire picture of the case.

CHARLES SACKETT, JUROR: I ask myself how I could have allowed myself to juror in such a case where the outcome was so deliberately stacked against state rights and patient rights from the beginning.

MARNEY CRAIG, JUROR: We were sent into the jury room with half the evidence and expected to come up with a fair and just verdict. This did not happen.

CROWD: Ed, we love you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And Ed Rosenthal joins us tonight from San Francisco. It's good to have you with us.

Was the jury -- did prosecutors tell the jury why they thought you were selling this marijuana, by the way?

ROSENTHAL: No, they didn't. They didn't feel that they needed to. They just had to prove that I was growing the marijuana.

BROWN: OK, so they didn't present a theory that you were just some street drug dealer. They let jurors think whatever they thought.

ROSENTHAL: That's right. It really didn't matter to them. Just the fact that I was growing it was enough.

BROWN: And you're sitting there in this trial and this is going on. Didn't you want to get up and scream, hey, wait a second; there's a small fact you don't know, or several?

ROSENTHAL: Well, we thought that the judge would allow some of our evidence in. We were really disappointed when the court decided that we couldn't present any of our evidence. It was very frustrating.

BROWN: And they didn't know that you worked with the city of Oakland. And, in fact, is there not within even federal law an area where, if you are an agent of the government, you are exempt, essentially, from some of these drug laws?

ROSENTHAL: Yes. That's a provision of the federal law. It's 18-USC -- Title 18 USC-885(d). And that exempt officers of the city from criminal activities when they're carrying out health and safety regulations.

BROWN: And you would argue, and I gather Oakland would support the argument, that you were an agent of the city?

ROSENTHAL: Yes. As a matter of fact, the assistant attorney for Oakland testified at the hearings that I was an officer of the city and that I should be exempt.

BROWN: And the judge did not allow that testimony before the jury either?

ROSENTHAL: That's right.

BROWN: Because?

ROSENTHAL: Well, he said that she wasn't a federal officer, so she wasn't authorized to make that determination. And when we tried to bring a federal officer into the court, the judge quashed the subpoena.

BROWN: Where do you go from here? You appeal this, certainly, right, to the 9th Circuit?

ROSENTHAL: Well, yes. We think that there were a lot of improprieties, both in the grand jury actions, as well as in the trial. And my attorneys assure me that it will be overturned.

BROWN: Well, it's unusual for attorneys to be that certain. The Supreme Court has spoken on this question. And it does seem to me it has sided with the federal government over the states. Why are the attorneys so certain you're going to walk?

ROSENTHAL: Well, they think that there were so many improprieties at the trial and before the trial, that it reeks.

BROWN: Can you give me a sense of what the improprieties were?

ROSENTHAL: For instance, the prosecutor, AUSA Bevan, testified at the grand jury. And a prosecutor isn't supposed to testify. Once he testified, he should have recused himself from the grand jury.

BROWN: Anyway, this goes to the 9th Circuit. And you're looking at five years if you don't win. We appreciate your time. And, as we always do with guests, we wish you good luck.

Thanks a lot, Ed Rosenthal, in San Francisco tonight, in one of those cases.

Still ahead, segment seven is around the corner. Tonight: a memorial for the lost astronauts and a new anthem for the space program. You'll want to stay with us.

This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Finally from us tonight: a memorial today for the seven lost astronauts, this one at the National Cathedral in Washington.

The song you'll hear, sung by Patti LaBelle was actually commissioned by NASA to mark the 100th anniversary of the Wright Brothers' first flight. That song now commemorates both the triumph and the tragedy of Columbia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We are here today to honor the memory of seven lost explorers; to mourn seven good men and women; and to offer the respects of a grateful nation.

PATTI LABELLE, SINGER (singing): Way, way up there, where peace remains.

Saturday morning brought terrible news to all Americans, and the flag of our country was lowered to half-staff in honor of our fallen Columbia astronauts.

LABELLE (singing): And amazing grace bring us closer to our home in space. COL. ROBERT D. CABANA, MARINE CORPS: This was a special and diverse crew of mixed ethnicity, gender, and religious belief, bound as one in pursuit of a common and noble goal: to improve life for all of us here on planet Earth through the science they were conducted in space.

LABELLE (singing): We look behind us at the wonder of the Earth only to remind us where God gave birth

SEAN O'KEEFE, NASA ADMINISTRATOR: Every time we send humans into space, our astronauts look up to the starry firmament, seeking to extend our horizons throughout the vast expanse of God's creation.

Our explorers go forward into the unknown with hope and faith. As commander Rick Husband said, there is no way that you can look at the stars, at the Earth, at the moon, and not come to realize there is a God out there.

LABELLE (singing): Bring us closer to our home in space.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Good to have you with us. We'll see you tomorrow.

Good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com