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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Bush Pushes on With Plans for Iraq Despite International Backlash; Boston Gets 27 Inches of Snow in a Day

Aired February 18, 2003 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening again, everyone. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld three decades ago came up with a list of rules to live and serve by. "Rumsfeld Rules" they're called, and their the ones the Bush administration seems to be sticking to it seems where Iraq is concerned.
Here is one. "Don't necessarily avoid sharp edges. Occasionally they are necessary to leadership." The president today made it clear that when it comes to getting the bad guys and the bad weapons out of Iraq, this is not a popularity contest. The United States will do what it thinks needs to be done on its own no matter how small the coalition of the willing may be.

An argument can be made and was made here last night that the administration has been a bit ham-handed in the way it has dealt with all of this, bullying when a little humility would have served it better. Some of the scars of this diplomatic fight probably could have been avoided had it been handled a little better. But in the end, when all the resolutions are written and all the debates are over, like it or not, the president is likely to get his way for one very simple reason. Saddam will not comply. And we suspect that on both sides those pressing for war and those opposed agree at least on that.

We begin tonight with the push by the president to keep the pressure on Iraq and keep the pressure on reluctant allies too. Chris Burns in a new post tonight. He leads off "The Whip" at the White House. Chris, welcome, and a headline, please.

CHRIS BURNS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Thank you, Aaron. Well, President Bush digging in his heels despite the anti-war ground swell that blocks (ph) populated by the millions over the weekend. But he's also pressing ahead for a new U.N. resolution to shore up his coalition of the willing.

BROWN: Chris, thank you. Back to you at the top tonight.

On to the U.N. next, where dozens of nations began laying out their position on Iraq today. Richard Roth of course is there. Richard, a headline from you.

RICHARD ROTH, CNN U.N. CORRESPONDENT: Millions of people, Aaron, took to the streets last weekend. Today it was their government's turn. Enhance the inspections or stop the clock on Iraq. The world speaks.

BROWN: Richard.

The latest on the storm now from the last big city to get dumped upon, Boston. Daryn Kagan has moved up North. Daryn, a headline from you.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, the snow has finally stopped here if Boston, Aaron. Twenty-seven inches, largest accumulation ever in a 24-hour period in Boston. But coming up, we're going to explain to you why city officials are actually thankful to mother nature for one aspect of the storm. Back to you.

BROWN: Daryn, thank you.

And a story now about a baseball player who died far too young. And the key question is why. Josie Karp is in Fort Lauderdale tonight. Josie, a headline from you.

JOSIE KARP, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, new details did emerge today about what may have contributed to the death of the Orioles pitcher Steve Bechler. The Broward County chief medical examiner pointed a finger at a number of factors, including the stimulant Ephedrine -- Aaron.

BROWN: Josie, thank you. Back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up tonight on NEWSNIGHT for Tuesday, the 18th of February, what the White House says and what the world hears. We'll talk with three journalists from the European and Arab press about what's shaping public opinion and why it is in many cases so different over there than it is over here.

And one family's fear when they look on the horizon a few hundred miles to the east. One family in Syria. Their story and their take on Iraq from Pulitzer Prize winning photographer David Turnley (ph). That's "segment 7" tonight; a little gem at the end of the program.

But we begin it all at the White House, where determination was the order of the day. The president plainly sending a signal that the peace marches and diplomatic setbacks to the contrary, the goals of the administration have not changed. But since last Friday, the tactics have seemed somewhat in flux, with the White House searching for new ways of getting what it wants at the U.N. and getting what it can from Europe. That's been tinkering with the diplomatic mix, toning down the rhetoric somewhat.

The president has many constituents to accommodate and many skeptics left to persuade. From the White House tonight, CNN's Chris Burns.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BURNS (voice-over): After millions took to the streets around the world over the weekend, President Bush tries to keep the threat of war on track and defend his leading ally, British Prime Minister Tony Blair. GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Any time somebody shows courage when it comes to peace, the people will eventually understand that. First of all, size of protest is like saying, well, I'm going to decide policy based upon a focus group. The role of a leader is to decide policy based upon the security. In this case, the security of the people.

BURNS: But Bush and Blair appear to differ on the importance of a new U.N. Security Council resolution before attacking Iraq. One that would declare Baghdad in material breach of Resolution 1441, aimed at scrapping any weapons of mass destruction.

BUSH: A second resolution would be useful. We don't need a second resolution.

TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: I still believe that we should have a second resolution. I believe that for a very clear reason. 1441 either has to be followed through and implemented, or it's going to be ignored.

BURNS: And Turkey's support is looking shakier. Ankara is reportedly holding out for billions more in aid before letting in U.S. forces that could invade northern Iraq. U.S. officials are considering a plan B for such an invasion just in case.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BURNS: So there are setbacks to the Bush war plans. However, there is optimism here among the Bush administration that they still can manage to secure another U.N. resolution. President Bush is leaving it up to the diplomats to handle the wordsmithing -- Aaron.

BROWN: Any idea from there in your reporting when that resolution will be presented?

BURNS: Well, it's looking more like next week. And keep in mind that next Friday, the 28th of February, there will be another report by Hans Blix, the chief weapons inspector, and that could perhaps offer more fodder for President Bush's toward attacking Iraq.

BROWN: Chris, thank you. Chris Burns at the White House tonight.

Now on to the United Nations, where a second U.N. resolution could be presented as early as tomorrow. Or, as Chris indicated, as late as next week, or not at all. In any case, today some new items for the Security Council to consider.

Reports that interviews with Iraqi scientists have hit a snag and a new warning from the secretary general of the U.N. that time is quickly running out for Iraq. But also today, members of the non- aligned (ph) group of nations had their say. And much of what they had to say was skeptical. Once again, CNN's Richard Roth.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ROTH (voice-over): The turnout was small at this anti-war demonstration in the snow. Across the street, inside the United Nations, there were more speakers from governments criticizing any use of force on Iraq.

YAHYA MAHMASSANI, ARAB LEAGUE AMBASSADOR TO U.N. (through translator): We ask why war, and what is the imminent danger that would justify war?

JAVAD ZARIF, ARANIAN AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: We cannot accept that the priorities of one power could provide the criteria for the effectiveness or relevance of the United Nations.

ROTH: The meeting was called to give nonmembers of the Security Council a chance to offer their opinions on Iraq. And like the current Council membership, division here, too.

JOHN DAUTH, AUSTRALIAN AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: Does Iraq really need three more months to make a decision that it should take in no more than three minutes?

DUMISANI KUMALO, SOUTH AFRICAN AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: None of the information provided thus far would seem to justify the Security Council abandoning the inspection process and immediately resorting to the threatened "serious consequences."

ROTH: The debate made for strange table fellows. Iraq, sitting next to the U.S., calls for nations of the world to listen to the people of the world who poured into the streets last weekend.

JOHN NEGROPONTE, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: We, like other countries, want to hear what people in governments have to say. But in the end, I think our behavior is going to be determined by our concern about the disarmament of Iraq and considerations of national security of our own country and of others.

ROTH: The U.S. ambassador had lunch with chief weapons inspector Hans Blix. The U.N. is interested in Blix pressing Iraq to destroy those al samud (ph) missiles test fired by Iraq beyond a permitted 90- mile range. The U.S. and U.K. also continue to work on a second resolution for the entire Security Council.

(on camera): Are you threatened by a second resolution that says Iraq will be in material breach?

MOHAMMED ALDOURI, IRAQI AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: Well, it seems the national community rejected that trend in the America (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROTH: Unlike Friday, when the French foreign minister received a round of applause inside the Security Council, no nation got a cheer today. However, France is continuing to receive plaudits. Five thousand e-mails, mostly from Americans, have been received at the French mission to the U.N., full of praise for France's courage -- Aaron.

BROWN: Richard, let's go to this question that we asked Chris Burns at the White House. The prospects for a second resolution, when and what are the parameters of it now? What are the British and the Americans looking at?

ROTH: I was afraid you were going to ask me that question. This resolution rumble now is well underway. The U.S. and U.K., according to diplomats, may present one sometime this week to the Council. It could be very simple and say that Iraq is in material breach, unlikely to press the point home that there would be further consequences because they want to try to get as many countries on board.

Right now, the U.S. doesn't have the votes. If France, Russia or China really state a veto, there's no way they're going to put it on the table. This process could take definitely up to two weeks.

Hans Blix not so sure, as Chris Burns said, that he's going to present a report on Friday. But the U.S. is going to push him to present Iraq with benchmarks: the missiles, the Iraqi scientist interviews, enough to try to get Iraq to show that it's defiant and thus try to woo support from the Council.

BROWN: And just quickly, Richard, is a veto by the French or the Russians or the Chinese a real possibility?

ROTH: I don't think it is. I think it's been at least 35 to 40 years since France vetoed. France doesn't want to appear alone, though they are trying to be a big player now on the world stage. It would be interesting if they went forward with it.

BROWN: Richard, thank you. Richard Roth at the United Nations tonight.

On now to the snowstorm that hit here in the East and how one meteorologist said they figured out how many inches of snow fell. It's a complicated system, where radar telemetry, where they bounce things on satellites. Then he stopped and admitted, well, no, they put a ruler in the snow.

Maybe more than one ruler was needed for the blizzard dubbed by some as the Beast of the East. A storm that was a dream for headline writers and a colossal pain for pretty much everyone else. From Boston tonight, CNN's Daryn Kagan.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN (voice-over): From the White House to the United Nations, it all looked pretty much the same. After the snow piled up, people were cleaning up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dug out yesterday, but woke up this morning and it was back to square one.

KAGAN: Boston was the last big city to be hit before the storm pushed out to sea. Logan Airport got 27.5 inches of snow. That's the biggest accumulation since the city started keeping records back in 1892.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was a whopper, whatever you want to call it, as far as inches are concerned.

KAGAN: So the mayor said this storm wasn't as bad as the blizzard of '78.

MAYOR THOMAS MENINO, BOSTON: Yes, we did have a record snowfall, but I believe the city of Boston came through the storm in good shape. We didn't have the winds, we didn't have the water that we had in '78.

KAGAN: A roof on an industrial building collapsed in Hopedale, Massachusetts causing one injury.

CHIEF SCOTT GARLAND, HOPEDALE FIRE DEPARTMENT: The buildings collapsed from 15 feet to the ground, and then there's a 10-feet snow load on top of the collapsed roof.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You were describing the inside of the building.

GARLAND: Everything just crashed right down to the ground.

KAGAN: Government offices in Washington remained closed, and there were school closings from West Virginia to Connecticut. More than 30 deaths are blamed on the storm. Two children were found dead in a snow-covered car northeast Baltimore. A third child who was hospitalized says he and his friends were listening to CDs inside the car when they lost consciousness.

East Coast airports began to be reopen today, but many passengers continued to wait.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My wife and daughter got out on a 7:15 flight yesterday morning, they were the last two seats. I was supposed to follow at 2:40. They're in Tampa, I'm here watching snow, hoping to get out today.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: So we've been getting e-mail from some folks in Montana and Colorado and some of these really big snow states saying, what's the big deal, come on, 27 inches of snow? But keep in mind, everything you see behind me, that has happened over the last 24 hours. Not even a flake on the ground before this storm hit.

Also, you heard Mayor Menino talking about back in '78 how that was really, really the tough storm. Aaron, let me show you real quick. This was the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of mother nature. Look at the texture of the snow. Real light and fluffy here.

That made it a lot easier for them to plow it to the side and get it to the side of the road. And things far from perfect here in Boston, but a lot further along they said than they would have been if they got the wet, really heavy snow like they did back in '78.

BROWN: Daryn, thank you. I love when the glass is half full and not half empty. Thank you very much.

KAGAN: You got that.

BROWN: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll talk with three foreign journalists. Their perception of Americans overseas. How they're reporting the story and what their countrymen and women have to think about it all.

We'll have the latest from Chicago, where the investigation continues into the nightclub stampede that killed more than 20. And a baseball player dies on the practice field. There are calls for Major League Baseball to ban a diet supplement he was using. That and more as NEWSNIGHT continues from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A day after a stampede at a Chicago nightclub, and the finger pointing is in full swing now. The city, the police, the lawyers for the club all went at it today. Voices raised, but one thing we think spoke even louder, the quiet signs of struggle to cope with the loss of 21 lives. Reporting for us tonight, CNN's Jeff Flock.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF FLOCK, CNN CHICAGO BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): In the alley next to the E2 nightclub, there is a cross for each of the 21 victims. While some come to mourn, others' grief turns to anger and resolve.

MAYOR RICHARD DALEY, CHICAGO: The city will go to court today to file criminal contempt charges against the owners of the club.

FLOCK: Chicago Mayor Richard Daley, whose own mother died of a stroke Sunday, emerged from his grief to charge club owners with operating for months in violation of this court order that said the second floor club should be shut for 11 separate code violations. City attorneys asked the owner, Dwayne Kiles (ph), to be jailed.

TOM ROYCE, CLUB OWNER'S ATTORNEY: He's struck down by this tragedy. He's saddened. My client can't get over this.

FLOCK: The judge for now refused to approve the criminal contempt, saying there may have been confusion over interpretation of the court order. Attorneys for Kiles (ph) and the club say when the order called for the second floor to be closed, it meant the second level sky boxes, visible in this video, which are above the dance floor. Not the whole club, which is on the second floor of the Epitome restaurant building.

Some ask, if there was a court order to close the club, why wasn't it closed long before the tragedy Monday morning?

REV. JESSE JACKSON: The events were advertised on the Internet, on radio.

FLOCK: Reverend Jesse Jackson, a friend of the club owner, tells me E2 never operated in secret. He says the blame is more likely to fall on the security guard, who has now admitted to pepper spraying the crowd. And another factor: some panicking over what they thought may have been a terrorist attack.

(on camera): How much did that contribute to it in your mind?

JACKSON: When you combine a small fight and a big reaction, immediately mace or pepper spray takes the rest of the oxygen out of the room. So somebody says, poison gas, somebody says terror, someone says bin Laden. And of course there's a dash to the door.

FLOCK (voice-over): We talked to this woman, Lakisha Blackwell (ph), who was inside the club.

LAKISHA BLACKWELL: Some people were saying it was bin Laden. And they were saying silly stuff.

FLOCK: The fire commissioner was most upset about the crowd being pepper sprayed. That, he says, would be tantamount to yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. I'm Jeff Flock, CNN, in Chicago.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A few things in life are certain, but one is nearly so. Twenty-three-year-old athletes are not supposed to just die. Yesterday, 23-year-old Steve Bechler became the first baseball player ever to die in spring training. He collapsed at the Baltimore Orioles' training camp in Florida and later died in the hospital.

An autopsy took place today. Heat may have been the principal culprit, but there may as well have been an accomplice, a dietary supplement banned by other sports but not by major league baseball. Again, h ere is CNN's Josie Karp.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARP (voice-over): The Baltimore Orioles returned to the rituals of spring on Tuesday.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In talking to the players and seeing their reactions and -- you know, in just -- in their talk in the clubhouse -- you could tell that everybody really wanted that time to be filled.

KARP: While they worked out, surrounded by reminders of loss, details emerged about Steve Bechler's condition at the time of his death. The 23-year-old pitcher had slight high blood pressure. And at 6'3" inches tall, 249 pounds, the Orioles say he was overweight.

His heart and his liver were enlarged. He was also, according to the Broward County chief medical examiner, taking a diet supplement that contained Ephedrine.

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER, BROWARD COUNTY: There were a number of factors which worked together in unison to cause a very tragic result. And I am not able to tease away the respective contribution of each factor. KARP: Because of its dangers, the National Football League prohibits the use of Ephedrine. Major League Baseball does not.

PERPER: Perhaps if he wouldn't have used Ephedra (ph), this tragic event wouldn't have happened.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We go through education, we discourage. We can't test for it, so we can't say, if we can't test for it and the player doesn't tell us he's taking it, how are we supposed to know?

KARP: Orioles players did know Bechler's physical condition kept him from completing practice the day before he became fatally ill during a conditioning drill Sunday.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was really kind of distraught. And I kind of went over there and I spoke with him and told him to keep his head up and just keep working. And he was like, I'm messed up, I just want to change.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KARP: Final toxicology results won't be available for another two to three weeks. But already Bechler's death has reopened the issue of exactly what Major League Baseball should be testing for. Last year, when the players association agreed to very limited testing for steroids as part of a new collective bargaining agreement, that was considered a huge step -- Aaron.

BROWN: Josie, thank you. Josie Karp in Fort Lauderdale tonight. We said leading in there that it was the first baseball player ever to die in spring training on the field, we should have added. And now we have.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT: seeing the same facts in a completely different light. How the United States and France are butting heads over the Iraq situation. Around the world from New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A few stories from around the country tonight, beginning with something that may cause you to you clutch your credit cards a little tighter. A hacker may have gotten access to as many as eight million credit card accounts, Visa, MasterCard, Discover and American Express, a clean sweep all affected by the security breach. Companies are investigating, and so is the FBI.

From Modesto, California, a development. How significant we can't say yet in the case of Laci Peterson, the pregnant woman who has been missing since Christmas Eve. Modesto police once again searched the home she shared with her husband Scott. Police say he is not a suspect yet but he hasn't been eliminated either.

And images from Kilauea, the volcano in Hawaii. The lava is flowing again. The temperature about 2,100 degrees. How do they measure that? Kilauea is the world's most active volcano. As we said at the top of the program, we'll be talking to journalists tonight from Europe and the Middle East about this disconnect between the United States and the rest of the world. Today, Britain's prime minister had a warning. "People who want to pull Europe and America apart," said Tony Blair, "are playing the most dangerous game of international politics I know."

He mentioned no names, but it was clear the prime minister had Germany in mind, and especially France. Here's CNN's Jim Bittermann.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SR. EUROPEAN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): There they were, hundreds of thousands in the streets. Yet unlike most demonstrations here, this time it was not against the French government. In fact, on the question of conflict in Iraq, the street protesters and the government are on the same page.

But as unified as the French may be, demonstrations in other countries show just how polarized the world has become. The author of "U.S.-French Relations in a New Era" fears the dispute between Baghdad and Washington has badly damaged international institutions like the U.N., NATO and the European Union. And that the U.S. would be taking a huge step if it goes to war alone.

GUILLAUME PARMENTIER, FRENCH INSTITUTE FOR INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS: By so doing, the U.S. will weaken the three major institutions upon which it has built its foreign policy in the world since the Second World War. It seems to me that putting an end to a dictator in the Middle East, at the cost of doing that is to pay a rather heavy price.

BITTERMANN: Despite the friendly looking photo-ops, there was another round of corrosive diplomacy in Brussels Monday, when France and Britain crossed swords on a European Union resolution and President Jacques Chirac lashed out at Eastern European countries which support Washington.

It's the kind of suspicion and allegation that is everywhere. Just as arms inspector Hans Blix on Friday cast doubt on the quality and quantity of U.S. spy work in Iraq, many elsewhere believe the U.S. has been cooking intelligence information to support an attack, including the head of French counterintelligence, who said on French TV, "There is no organizational link between the regime of Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda."

On the other hand, because Paris has trade relations with Iraq, the pro-war camp is suspicious that's the reason France is opposing war. Although Iraq trade represents only three-tenths of one percent of the country's overall trade. As institutions work into the night and war of words continues, there is a sense those institutions may be in for fundamental and historical changes, including even those of United States itself, where from abroad, observers say, it already looks like the Bush administration has overrun the system of checks and balances. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It seems as if the only thing that mattered was what the administration (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the members of the administration were saying, which is very unusual. And I would venture to say rather un-American.

BITTERMANN (on camera): And so, even before the first shot is fired in a new confrontation with Iraq, some believe there has already been some collateral damage. Jim Bittermann, CNN, Paris.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And still to come on NEWSNIGHT, more on this split over Iraq. We'll hear what journalists overseas think about the situation.

And later, in "Segment 7" tonight, a tiny Syrian town where families are worried about a possible war next door. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And next on NEWSNIGHT, we convene a roundtable of overseas journalists to talk about perception of the Bush administration and the possibility of a war with Iraq before and after.

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Pretty amazing when it seems like the smallest thing dividing Europe and America is the Atlantic Ocean.

Someone we talked to recently, author Robert Kagan measures the distance this way: Americans are from Mars; Europeans are from Venus, and, on the issue of Iraq, may have added a few million more miles to that.

We wanted to get a better sense of the mood in Europe and the Arab world as well on all things Iraq from some journalists who have been covering the debate; here in New York, Abderrahim Foukara of Al- Jazeera, the Arab TV network; also James Bone of "Times of London"; and, in Washington, Tom Buhrow of ARD, the German television network.

And, Tom, let me start with you.

The Germans, it seems to me, at least, have always had -- or in the post-World War II era -- a fondness for Americans and things American. Is there a lot of angst over this now in Germany?

TOM BUHROW, ARD: Definitely.

This is the one point where the government has the overwhelming majority of the population behind it. And what you can see is now anxiety over if America will destabilize world order. See, all the demonstrations that occurred in the past, 60's, '70s, '80s or whatever, usually were youth demonstrations, demonstrations of a peace movement, a pacifist part of the country.

Well, the conservative part of country -- I speak of the generation of my parents -- grateful for protection in the anti- communism time, were grateful for the protection. But America was seen as a stabilizer. And now, for the first time, across all generations, people are afraid that America might destabilize the world order and bring about, basically, the war that we want to avoid.

BROWN: James, in Britain, is it your sense that there is that concern or is it a different concern where the British are concerned?

JAMES BONE, "THE TIMES OF LONDON": Well, I think there are various strands in what one could call the peace movement. It's a very broad church. It ranges from the kind of a Marxist argument, no blood for oil, to the straightforward pacifists, blessed are the peacemakers, to quite a lot of people who just don't like George Bush and didn't like George Bush before Iraq was on the radar screen.

BROWN: How much of this is the personality of the administration?

BONE: I think that quite a lot is the personality.

You have to remember that, even before 9/11, there was a whole lot of disputes about international treaties, about the Kyoto protocol on the environment, about the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty with the Russians, about the International Criminal Court, things that people in Europe believe in that the Americans were walking away from. So, there was a lot of resentment already. At the moment, the anti- Americanism is ferocious in Britain.

BROWN: We're just back from Kuwait. We have a sense of what people in Kuwait think. And they certainly are supportive of the notion of war.

I'm curious what you think the take is in your part of the world about the period after the war and how much anxiety there is about an American occupation in Iraq.

ABDERRAHIM FOUKARA, AL-JAZEERA: I think there's a lot of anxiety. And people are very -- there's this serious sense of worry of the destabilization of the region that an occupation of Iraq by the United States could unleash right across the Arab world.

The Arabs have always had this ambivalent attitude towards the United States. On the one hand, they've always admired the United States. They've admired the power. They've admired their technology. They've admired the influence. But, at the same time, there's been a lot of resentment over the years. And that, I guess, has only got worse since 9/11.

And the resentment is basically centered on U.S. foreign policy in the region, beginning with U.S. foreign policy towards the Arab- Israeli conflict.

BROWN: And that's gotten worse since 9/11? FOUKARA: Well, it's gotten worse since 9/11 in the sense that a lot of people are saying that the U.S. is focusing on Iraq. And they fail to understand why the Bush administration is focusing on Iraq.

And, obviously, if you talk to the Bush administration, they say that their focus on Iraq has nothing to do with oil, for example. But to a lot of people in the Arab world, that is how they perceive the Bush administration's interest in Iraq.

BROWN: Let me go back the other way.

Tony Blair finds himself in a fascinating position. For much of his political life, he's been described as someone who sort of checks the wind before he takes a position. And here, clearly, the wind is blowing against him. What's your take? Does he survive all this?

BONE: Well, I think he survives quite easily. I think he's a conviction politician now, which is probably to his credit. I think that the public opinion will shift in Britain. The public opinion isn't as vehement in Britain as it is in some other countries.

BROWN: I saw a poll today that showed about 52 percent or so of the British public opposed to it. So, it's on the margins.

BONE: It's on the margin.

Blair, actually, what's interesting about him is that he's a large historical figure now, having won two landslide elections in Britain. And he's beginning to transcend party. And he has a following independent of party, actually. And he's trying to speak to that constituency. And he's speaking very emotionally, I think quite effectively, to it at the moment.

BROWN: Now, Tom, do you think there's a possibility that the Germans will come around in, let's say, this way, that - they obviously won't send troops into Iraq. Might they relieve some American troops who are stationed, let's say, in Afghanistan?

BUHROW: Oh, yes, definitely.

And that's something that gets lost. They are already doing it. They took over with the Dutch the command in Afghanistan. So G.I.s are already relieved to go to Iraq. They're protecting bases in Germany, so that people that got deployed, G.I.s that got deployed out of there, the bases are not without protection. There are armored vehicles, anti-chemical warfare vehicles, defensive vehicles, in Kuwait right now under the mandate of Enduring Freedom. But so what? They're there.

They will supply soldiers and the AWACs planes surveilling the skies. So, there are a lot of things that are already either committed or happening, including Patriot missiles to Israel, Patriot missiles promised to Turkey, etcetera.

BONE: I think you shouldn't overstate. One thing you've got to understand is the division within Europe. This is also about a battle for Europe. It's a battle, with the French and the Germans seeking a particular view of Europe, and the other countries around the edge seeking a different view of Europe. And that's been as important a dynamic in this as the U.S.-European dynamic.

BROWN: These two Europes look like what?

BONE: Well, one is narrow and deep and the other is broad and shallow, roughly speaking.

BROWN: But, in terms of issues, where do they break? Is there something here more than Iraq?

BONE: Oh, yes, there's much more than Iraq.

You have the ambition of the French, particularly, to build Europe as an alternative pole in the world to the United States. And Germany seems to have joined in that project. I think the French and German motives are slightly different. Germany, by its own history, has a reason to be pacifists, and a good reason to be pacifists. The French seem to be embarking on trying to, with the Germans, set up an alternative power center to the United States.

This is not something that Britain or Spain or Italy is trying to do. Britain or Spain or Italy have a much more American-style view of Europe, a much more multiethnic view of Europe than the French and the Germans do.

BROWN: Now, the administration will say that, while the governments in your part of the world may not publicly say so or may not publicly say it as loud as they would like, that, at least quietly, they support the idea of getting rid of Saddam Hussein. They would welcome it. True?

FOUKARA: Well, I think it depends which government you're talking about.

There's no denying the fact that there are some governments in the region, whether in the immediate vicinity of Iraq and the Gulf or elsewhere, who feel very nervous, basically, with all the stuff that has been going on in Iraq, basically since the pre-invasion of Kuwait in 1991. And they feel that, in some way, the government in Baghdad is basically a source of trouble for them, in the sense that there are a lot of people in their countries who basically feel very sympathetic with Iraq and the Iraqis.

And that basically creates some tension between these governments and their own people. And that puts these governments under some sort of pressure. There is this division between governments and people. As I said, not all governments are -- or would like to see Saddam go. But there are some. Certainly, there are some governments who would like to see that happen, but they are under pressure from their own people.

BROWN: There seems to be a lot of pressure from people all over the world.

Gentlemen, thanks for coming in. We should convene this yet again before too very long. Thank you.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll take a look from the morning papers from around the world and we'll end it all tonight with a trip to Syria and meet a family whose concerns about the war might match your own.

From New York and around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And coming up on NEWSNIGHT, we'll take a look at the morning papers from around the world and in your backyard.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: When we first got word of this story last night, we feared it would get bad. The bulletin said fire in a South Korean subway, several people hurt, then five dead. Then the numbers just kept rising. Tonight, it stands at 120 at least. Police have a suspect in custody who may have a history of mental illness.

Reporting for us, CNN's Rebecca MacKinnon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REBECCA MACKINNON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hell underground in the Taegu subway. Rescue crews managed to save more than 100 victims of the subway fire. This fireman says he tried to save more, but it was too hot to reach them.

Noxious fumes and smoke filled the underground station, making rescue even harder. The unlucky were burned, suffocated or crushed to death, trapped in subway cars whose doors could not open thanks to a power failure caused by the fire. A few are reported to have called their loved ones by cell phone in their last moments of life, victims of what appears to have been arson.

This eyewitness says he saw a man playing with a cigarette lighter. Then there was a struggle and a stampede out of the subway once the fire began to spread. The suspect, who witnesses said used the lighter to ignite a container full of a flammable substance, is now in a hospital and under police custody. South Korean media reports cited authorities who believe the man is mentally unstable.

The injured filled nearby hospitals, struggling to cope with the influx. For families of the victims: shock and disbelief, combing through lists of the names of the injured, clinging to the hope that their loved ones had been lucky enough to survive the mad inferno.

Rebecca MacKinnon, CNN, Seoul.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A couple more stories from around the world, starting in the Middle East: Israeli tanks have pulled out of Gaza City. They rolled in earlier today, they say in search of Hamas and Islamic Jihad guerrillas. Soldiers traded fire with Palestinian gunmen.

In all, the Palestinian say six of their own died. Hamas is claiming it blew up a tank in a suicide bombing -- Israel not confirming that yet. The Israeli government is calling the operation, two days so far, a limited one. There's been a great deal of speculation, in the Israeli press, at least, that a large-scale occupation of Gaza, to be a complicated piece of business, is in the cards.

And, no, it's not the Northeast. Some of the worst snowstorms in recent memory have hit the northern part of Afghanistan. Avalanches have shut down the main road between Kabul and points north, trouble for oil tankers and a headache for travelers -- How familiar is this? -- but potentially a godsend for farmers, who will need the water come spring.

All right, time to -- no, time to check the morning papers, right? Yes, time to check the morning papers, so that's what we'll do, going mostly east to west. When we first started doing this, it was a dozen years ago and we were working in the middle of the night and we had newspapers from everywhere. And we're working on that.

OK, "The Moscow Times" -- which always, by the way, has a fabulous picture in the middle, really cool photography. But the story that caught our eye: "Bill Makes Human Trafficking a Crime." They just got around to doing this, huh, making slavery a crime. Anyway, there it is up in the corner there of "The Moscow Times" in tomorrow's paper.

Choreography is difficult. "The Guardian" from London, a left- leaning newspaper, it is fair to say. There, is that better? I guess it is. "U.S. Plan For New Nuclear Arsenal." It is pretty -- "The Guardian" will frequently runs stories it perceives -- we wouldn't necessarily -- but it perceives as anti-administration, and did again.

This is "The Chicago Sun Times" tomorrow: "Daley Wants Jail For Club Owner," "Chicago Sun Times."

And we'll end it with "The Times of London." And here is why. "Marines" -- in this case, British Marines "Caught Short by a Lack of Loo Rolls." For those of you wondering, that is toilet paper. It seems that, in Kuwait, a shipment has yet to arrive, a front-page story in London tomorrow morning.

That's a look at the morning papers from around the world.

And a quick note about this program tomorrow night: just a compelling piece of work coming out of Houston, Texas, we're going to show you, a school where close to half the students have a parent in prison. You'll hear from these kids and you'll find out what one woman is doing to make sure that these children do not end up the way their parents have.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is you all's message to people that make those statements that, you're going to prison anyway, so why should we do anything? What do you all to say to America about that?

Tam? (ph)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To all those people who believe that, I want to let you know, we are precious. We will not follow our parents' ways. And we are going to do something with our life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: That's tomorrow night on NEWSNIGHT. You're going to love this piece and you're going to love these kids. That's tomorrow. Please join us.

But we're not done yet for tonight. When we come back, we go to Syria. Pulitzer Prize-winning photographer David Turnley is our guide: one village's view of a war which, in their case, would be right next door.

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Finally from us tonight, we suspect some of you have gotten together with your families, maybe around the dinner table, and talked about Iraq. So has the family you're about to meet.

Their home and neighborhood may not look like yours. Their food may not look familiar and their language, you may not recognize. But what they have to say probably will not sound so foreign. They fear the possibility of war, something that's especially potent when you realize this family lives in Syria, just a few hundred miles from a front line.

Their story from photographer David Turnley, who is now covering the region for CNN.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): My name is Noison Hassan (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): My name is Ganon Ati (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): My name is Hamud Ati (ph). And I am 9 years old.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I was born in Aleppo and I live in an old house that is not too big. It has three rooms and a courtyard. Aleppo is an old town. And its castle is very beautiful. All of Syria is beautiful. And it's our country and everybody loves their own country.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Today is our biggest religious holiday. It is a day of happiness for us. We go out with the children to play. We visit our family and relatives. Today, we are visiting my mother and father-in-law.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): In a Syrian household, men and women are both responsible. Of course, the man has his own things to do outside the house and the woman has her things inside.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): In the morning, when I get up, I wash my hands and face and I go fix the breakfast. Then I go to school. In school, I learn math, geography, art, sports and religion. I would like to work with computers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The dream I have for my children is that they continue their studies, choose whatever profession they want for themselves.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I would like to tell the Americans that Syria is a very old country, these people who live happily together, with great hospitality.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): America is a highly developed country. All people are brothers. Whether American or Arab, we are all brothers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I don't like war. I like peace. War means destruction and killing children.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): We don't like war at all because of the destruction and the killing of innocent children.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I would tell Saddam Hussein to be humble and to cooperate with the Americans. But we reject this war. We are against this war. We are afraid for ourselves and our children and the Iraqis and their children.

I would tell President Bush to take it easy and to be patient and, hopefully, peace will come, and this situation might be solved peacefully, for the sake of the children and the elderly and everyone. We don't like any kind of war. War is destruction for us and for them.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A view from a village in Syria.

A reminder that if you want to know what we're doing before we even do it on a program, you can go to our Web site, CNN.com/NEWSNIGHT. Sign up for our daily e-mail. We'll run down the program as it seems to be going about dinnertime and a lot of other interesting stuff as well.

We'll see you tomorrow. Good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Backlash; Boston Gets 27 Inches of Snow in a Day>


Aired February 18, 2003 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening again, everyone. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld three decades ago came up with a list of rules to live and serve by. "Rumsfeld Rules" they're called, and their the ones the Bush administration seems to be sticking to it seems where Iraq is concerned.
Here is one. "Don't necessarily avoid sharp edges. Occasionally they are necessary to leadership." The president today made it clear that when it comes to getting the bad guys and the bad weapons out of Iraq, this is not a popularity contest. The United States will do what it thinks needs to be done on its own no matter how small the coalition of the willing may be.

An argument can be made and was made here last night that the administration has been a bit ham-handed in the way it has dealt with all of this, bullying when a little humility would have served it better. Some of the scars of this diplomatic fight probably could have been avoided had it been handled a little better. But in the end, when all the resolutions are written and all the debates are over, like it or not, the president is likely to get his way for one very simple reason. Saddam will not comply. And we suspect that on both sides those pressing for war and those opposed agree at least on that.

We begin tonight with the push by the president to keep the pressure on Iraq and keep the pressure on reluctant allies too. Chris Burns in a new post tonight. He leads off "The Whip" at the White House. Chris, welcome, and a headline, please.

CHRIS BURNS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Thank you, Aaron. Well, President Bush digging in his heels despite the anti-war ground swell that blocks (ph) populated by the millions over the weekend. But he's also pressing ahead for a new U.N. resolution to shore up his coalition of the willing.

BROWN: Chris, thank you. Back to you at the top tonight.

On to the U.N. next, where dozens of nations began laying out their position on Iraq today. Richard Roth of course is there. Richard, a headline from you.

RICHARD ROTH, CNN U.N. CORRESPONDENT: Millions of people, Aaron, took to the streets last weekend. Today it was their government's turn. Enhance the inspections or stop the clock on Iraq. The world speaks.

BROWN: Richard.

The latest on the storm now from the last big city to get dumped upon, Boston. Daryn Kagan has moved up North. Daryn, a headline from you.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, the snow has finally stopped here if Boston, Aaron. Twenty-seven inches, largest accumulation ever in a 24-hour period in Boston. But coming up, we're going to explain to you why city officials are actually thankful to mother nature for one aspect of the storm. Back to you.

BROWN: Daryn, thank you.

And a story now about a baseball player who died far too young. And the key question is why. Josie Karp is in Fort Lauderdale tonight. Josie, a headline from you.

JOSIE KARP, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, new details did emerge today about what may have contributed to the death of the Orioles pitcher Steve Bechler. The Broward County chief medical examiner pointed a finger at a number of factors, including the stimulant Ephedrine -- Aaron.

BROWN: Josie, thank you. Back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up tonight on NEWSNIGHT for Tuesday, the 18th of February, what the White House says and what the world hears. We'll talk with three journalists from the European and Arab press about what's shaping public opinion and why it is in many cases so different over there than it is over here.

And one family's fear when they look on the horizon a few hundred miles to the east. One family in Syria. Their story and their take on Iraq from Pulitzer Prize winning photographer David Turnley (ph). That's "segment 7" tonight; a little gem at the end of the program.

But we begin it all at the White House, where determination was the order of the day. The president plainly sending a signal that the peace marches and diplomatic setbacks to the contrary, the goals of the administration have not changed. But since last Friday, the tactics have seemed somewhat in flux, with the White House searching for new ways of getting what it wants at the U.N. and getting what it can from Europe. That's been tinkering with the diplomatic mix, toning down the rhetoric somewhat.

The president has many constituents to accommodate and many skeptics left to persuade. From the White House tonight, CNN's Chris Burns.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BURNS (voice-over): After millions took to the streets around the world over the weekend, President Bush tries to keep the threat of war on track and defend his leading ally, British Prime Minister Tony Blair. GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Any time somebody shows courage when it comes to peace, the people will eventually understand that. First of all, size of protest is like saying, well, I'm going to decide policy based upon a focus group. The role of a leader is to decide policy based upon the security. In this case, the security of the people.

BURNS: But Bush and Blair appear to differ on the importance of a new U.N. Security Council resolution before attacking Iraq. One that would declare Baghdad in material breach of Resolution 1441, aimed at scrapping any weapons of mass destruction.

BUSH: A second resolution would be useful. We don't need a second resolution.

TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: I still believe that we should have a second resolution. I believe that for a very clear reason. 1441 either has to be followed through and implemented, or it's going to be ignored.

BURNS: And Turkey's support is looking shakier. Ankara is reportedly holding out for billions more in aid before letting in U.S. forces that could invade northern Iraq. U.S. officials are considering a plan B for such an invasion just in case.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BURNS: So there are setbacks to the Bush war plans. However, there is optimism here among the Bush administration that they still can manage to secure another U.N. resolution. President Bush is leaving it up to the diplomats to handle the wordsmithing -- Aaron.

BROWN: Any idea from there in your reporting when that resolution will be presented?

BURNS: Well, it's looking more like next week. And keep in mind that next Friday, the 28th of February, there will be another report by Hans Blix, the chief weapons inspector, and that could perhaps offer more fodder for President Bush's toward attacking Iraq.

BROWN: Chris, thank you. Chris Burns at the White House tonight.

Now on to the United Nations, where a second U.N. resolution could be presented as early as tomorrow. Or, as Chris indicated, as late as next week, or not at all. In any case, today some new items for the Security Council to consider.

Reports that interviews with Iraqi scientists have hit a snag and a new warning from the secretary general of the U.N. that time is quickly running out for Iraq. But also today, members of the non- aligned (ph) group of nations had their say. And much of what they had to say was skeptical. Once again, CNN's Richard Roth.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ROTH (voice-over): The turnout was small at this anti-war demonstration in the snow. Across the street, inside the United Nations, there were more speakers from governments criticizing any use of force on Iraq.

YAHYA MAHMASSANI, ARAB LEAGUE AMBASSADOR TO U.N. (through translator): We ask why war, and what is the imminent danger that would justify war?

JAVAD ZARIF, ARANIAN AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: We cannot accept that the priorities of one power could provide the criteria for the effectiveness or relevance of the United Nations.

ROTH: The meeting was called to give nonmembers of the Security Council a chance to offer their opinions on Iraq. And like the current Council membership, division here, too.

JOHN DAUTH, AUSTRALIAN AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: Does Iraq really need three more months to make a decision that it should take in no more than three minutes?

DUMISANI KUMALO, SOUTH AFRICAN AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: None of the information provided thus far would seem to justify the Security Council abandoning the inspection process and immediately resorting to the threatened "serious consequences."

ROTH: The debate made for strange table fellows. Iraq, sitting next to the U.S., calls for nations of the world to listen to the people of the world who poured into the streets last weekend.

JOHN NEGROPONTE, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: We, like other countries, want to hear what people in governments have to say. But in the end, I think our behavior is going to be determined by our concern about the disarmament of Iraq and considerations of national security of our own country and of others.

ROTH: The U.S. ambassador had lunch with chief weapons inspector Hans Blix. The U.N. is interested in Blix pressing Iraq to destroy those al samud (ph) missiles test fired by Iraq beyond a permitted 90- mile range. The U.S. and U.K. also continue to work on a second resolution for the entire Security Council.

(on camera): Are you threatened by a second resolution that says Iraq will be in material breach?

MOHAMMED ALDOURI, IRAQI AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: Well, it seems the national community rejected that trend in the America (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROTH: Unlike Friday, when the French foreign minister received a round of applause inside the Security Council, no nation got a cheer today. However, France is continuing to receive plaudits. Five thousand e-mails, mostly from Americans, have been received at the French mission to the U.N., full of praise for France's courage -- Aaron.

BROWN: Richard, let's go to this question that we asked Chris Burns at the White House. The prospects for a second resolution, when and what are the parameters of it now? What are the British and the Americans looking at?

ROTH: I was afraid you were going to ask me that question. This resolution rumble now is well underway. The U.S. and U.K., according to diplomats, may present one sometime this week to the Council. It could be very simple and say that Iraq is in material breach, unlikely to press the point home that there would be further consequences because they want to try to get as many countries on board.

Right now, the U.S. doesn't have the votes. If France, Russia or China really state a veto, there's no way they're going to put it on the table. This process could take definitely up to two weeks.

Hans Blix not so sure, as Chris Burns said, that he's going to present a report on Friday. But the U.S. is going to push him to present Iraq with benchmarks: the missiles, the Iraqi scientist interviews, enough to try to get Iraq to show that it's defiant and thus try to woo support from the Council.

BROWN: And just quickly, Richard, is a veto by the French or the Russians or the Chinese a real possibility?

ROTH: I don't think it is. I think it's been at least 35 to 40 years since France vetoed. France doesn't want to appear alone, though they are trying to be a big player now on the world stage. It would be interesting if they went forward with it.

BROWN: Richard, thank you. Richard Roth at the United Nations tonight.

On now to the snowstorm that hit here in the East and how one meteorologist said they figured out how many inches of snow fell. It's a complicated system, where radar telemetry, where they bounce things on satellites. Then he stopped and admitted, well, no, they put a ruler in the snow.

Maybe more than one ruler was needed for the blizzard dubbed by some as the Beast of the East. A storm that was a dream for headline writers and a colossal pain for pretty much everyone else. From Boston tonight, CNN's Daryn Kagan.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN (voice-over): From the White House to the United Nations, it all looked pretty much the same. After the snow piled up, people were cleaning up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dug out yesterday, but woke up this morning and it was back to square one.

KAGAN: Boston was the last big city to be hit before the storm pushed out to sea. Logan Airport got 27.5 inches of snow. That's the biggest accumulation since the city started keeping records back in 1892.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was a whopper, whatever you want to call it, as far as inches are concerned.

KAGAN: So the mayor said this storm wasn't as bad as the blizzard of '78.

MAYOR THOMAS MENINO, BOSTON: Yes, we did have a record snowfall, but I believe the city of Boston came through the storm in good shape. We didn't have the winds, we didn't have the water that we had in '78.

KAGAN: A roof on an industrial building collapsed in Hopedale, Massachusetts causing one injury.

CHIEF SCOTT GARLAND, HOPEDALE FIRE DEPARTMENT: The buildings collapsed from 15 feet to the ground, and then there's a 10-feet snow load on top of the collapsed roof.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You were describing the inside of the building.

GARLAND: Everything just crashed right down to the ground.

KAGAN: Government offices in Washington remained closed, and there were school closings from West Virginia to Connecticut. More than 30 deaths are blamed on the storm. Two children were found dead in a snow-covered car northeast Baltimore. A third child who was hospitalized says he and his friends were listening to CDs inside the car when they lost consciousness.

East Coast airports began to be reopen today, but many passengers continued to wait.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My wife and daughter got out on a 7:15 flight yesterday morning, they were the last two seats. I was supposed to follow at 2:40. They're in Tampa, I'm here watching snow, hoping to get out today.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: So we've been getting e-mail from some folks in Montana and Colorado and some of these really big snow states saying, what's the big deal, come on, 27 inches of snow? But keep in mind, everything you see behind me, that has happened over the last 24 hours. Not even a flake on the ground before this storm hit.

Also, you heard Mayor Menino talking about back in '78 how that was really, really the tough storm. Aaron, let me show you real quick. This was the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of mother nature. Look at the texture of the snow. Real light and fluffy here.

That made it a lot easier for them to plow it to the side and get it to the side of the road. And things far from perfect here in Boston, but a lot further along they said than they would have been if they got the wet, really heavy snow like they did back in '78.

BROWN: Daryn, thank you. I love when the glass is half full and not half empty. Thank you very much.

KAGAN: You got that.

BROWN: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll talk with three foreign journalists. Their perception of Americans overseas. How they're reporting the story and what their countrymen and women have to think about it all.

We'll have the latest from Chicago, where the investigation continues into the nightclub stampede that killed more than 20. And a baseball player dies on the practice field. There are calls for Major League Baseball to ban a diet supplement he was using. That and more as NEWSNIGHT continues from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A day after a stampede at a Chicago nightclub, and the finger pointing is in full swing now. The city, the police, the lawyers for the club all went at it today. Voices raised, but one thing we think spoke even louder, the quiet signs of struggle to cope with the loss of 21 lives. Reporting for us tonight, CNN's Jeff Flock.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF FLOCK, CNN CHICAGO BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): In the alley next to the E2 nightclub, there is a cross for each of the 21 victims. While some come to mourn, others' grief turns to anger and resolve.

MAYOR RICHARD DALEY, CHICAGO: The city will go to court today to file criminal contempt charges against the owners of the club.

FLOCK: Chicago Mayor Richard Daley, whose own mother died of a stroke Sunday, emerged from his grief to charge club owners with operating for months in violation of this court order that said the second floor club should be shut for 11 separate code violations. City attorneys asked the owner, Dwayne Kiles (ph), to be jailed.

TOM ROYCE, CLUB OWNER'S ATTORNEY: He's struck down by this tragedy. He's saddened. My client can't get over this.

FLOCK: The judge for now refused to approve the criminal contempt, saying there may have been confusion over interpretation of the court order. Attorneys for Kiles (ph) and the club say when the order called for the second floor to be closed, it meant the second level sky boxes, visible in this video, which are above the dance floor. Not the whole club, which is on the second floor of the Epitome restaurant building.

Some ask, if there was a court order to close the club, why wasn't it closed long before the tragedy Monday morning?

REV. JESSE JACKSON: The events were advertised on the Internet, on radio.

FLOCK: Reverend Jesse Jackson, a friend of the club owner, tells me E2 never operated in secret. He says the blame is more likely to fall on the security guard, who has now admitted to pepper spraying the crowd. And another factor: some panicking over what they thought may have been a terrorist attack.

(on camera): How much did that contribute to it in your mind?

JACKSON: When you combine a small fight and a big reaction, immediately mace or pepper spray takes the rest of the oxygen out of the room. So somebody says, poison gas, somebody says terror, someone says bin Laden. And of course there's a dash to the door.

FLOCK (voice-over): We talked to this woman, Lakisha Blackwell (ph), who was inside the club.

LAKISHA BLACKWELL: Some people were saying it was bin Laden. And they were saying silly stuff.

FLOCK: The fire commissioner was most upset about the crowd being pepper sprayed. That, he says, would be tantamount to yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. I'm Jeff Flock, CNN, in Chicago.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A few things in life are certain, but one is nearly so. Twenty-three-year-old athletes are not supposed to just die. Yesterday, 23-year-old Steve Bechler became the first baseball player ever to die in spring training. He collapsed at the Baltimore Orioles' training camp in Florida and later died in the hospital.

An autopsy took place today. Heat may have been the principal culprit, but there may as well have been an accomplice, a dietary supplement banned by other sports but not by major league baseball. Again, h ere is CNN's Josie Karp.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARP (voice-over): The Baltimore Orioles returned to the rituals of spring on Tuesday.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In talking to the players and seeing their reactions and -- you know, in just -- in their talk in the clubhouse -- you could tell that everybody really wanted that time to be filled.

KARP: While they worked out, surrounded by reminders of loss, details emerged about Steve Bechler's condition at the time of his death. The 23-year-old pitcher had slight high blood pressure. And at 6'3" inches tall, 249 pounds, the Orioles say he was overweight.

His heart and his liver were enlarged. He was also, according to the Broward County chief medical examiner, taking a diet supplement that contained Ephedrine.

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER, BROWARD COUNTY: There were a number of factors which worked together in unison to cause a very tragic result. And I am not able to tease away the respective contribution of each factor. KARP: Because of its dangers, the National Football League prohibits the use of Ephedrine. Major League Baseball does not.

PERPER: Perhaps if he wouldn't have used Ephedra (ph), this tragic event wouldn't have happened.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We go through education, we discourage. We can't test for it, so we can't say, if we can't test for it and the player doesn't tell us he's taking it, how are we supposed to know?

KARP: Orioles players did know Bechler's physical condition kept him from completing practice the day before he became fatally ill during a conditioning drill Sunday.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was really kind of distraught. And I kind of went over there and I spoke with him and told him to keep his head up and just keep working. And he was like, I'm messed up, I just want to change.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KARP: Final toxicology results won't be available for another two to three weeks. But already Bechler's death has reopened the issue of exactly what Major League Baseball should be testing for. Last year, when the players association agreed to very limited testing for steroids as part of a new collective bargaining agreement, that was considered a huge step -- Aaron.

BROWN: Josie, thank you. Josie Karp in Fort Lauderdale tonight. We said leading in there that it was the first baseball player ever to die in spring training on the field, we should have added. And now we have.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT: seeing the same facts in a completely different light. How the United States and France are butting heads over the Iraq situation. Around the world from New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A few stories from around the country tonight, beginning with something that may cause you to you clutch your credit cards a little tighter. A hacker may have gotten access to as many as eight million credit card accounts, Visa, MasterCard, Discover and American Express, a clean sweep all affected by the security breach. Companies are investigating, and so is the FBI.

From Modesto, California, a development. How significant we can't say yet in the case of Laci Peterson, the pregnant woman who has been missing since Christmas Eve. Modesto police once again searched the home she shared with her husband Scott. Police say he is not a suspect yet but he hasn't been eliminated either.

And images from Kilauea, the volcano in Hawaii. The lava is flowing again. The temperature about 2,100 degrees. How do they measure that? Kilauea is the world's most active volcano. As we said at the top of the program, we'll be talking to journalists tonight from Europe and the Middle East about this disconnect between the United States and the rest of the world. Today, Britain's prime minister had a warning. "People who want to pull Europe and America apart," said Tony Blair, "are playing the most dangerous game of international politics I know."

He mentioned no names, but it was clear the prime minister had Germany in mind, and especially France. Here's CNN's Jim Bittermann.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SR. EUROPEAN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): There they were, hundreds of thousands in the streets. Yet unlike most demonstrations here, this time it was not against the French government. In fact, on the question of conflict in Iraq, the street protesters and the government are on the same page.

But as unified as the French may be, demonstrations in other countries show just how polarized the world has become. The author of "U.S.-French Relations in a New Era" fears the dispute between Baghdad and Washington has badly damaged international institutions like the U.N., NATO and the European Union. And that the U.S. would be taking a huge step if it goes to war alone.

GUILLAUME PARMENTIER, FRENCH INSTITUTE FOR INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS: By so doing, the U.S. will weaken the three major institutions upon which it has built its foreign policy in the world since the Second World War. It seems to me that putting an end to a dictator in the Middle East, at the cost of doing that is to pay a rather heavy price.

BITTERMANN: Despite the friendly looking photo-ops, there was another round of corrosive diplomacy in Brussels Monday, when France and Britain crossed swords on a European Union resolution and President Jacques Chirac lashed out at Eastern European countries which support Washington.

It's the kind of suspicion and allegation that is everywhere. Just as arms inspector Hans Blix on Friday cast doubt on the quality and quantity of U.S. spy work in Iraq, many elsewhere believe the U.S. has been cooking intelligence information to support an attack, including the head of French counterintelligence, who said on French TV, "There is no organizational link between the regime of Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda."

On the other hand, because Paris has trade relations with Iraq, the pro-war camp is suspicious that's the reason France is opposing war. Although Iraq trade represents only three-tenths of one percent of the country's overall trade. As institutions work into the night and war of words continues, there is a sense those institutions may be in for fundamental and historical changes, including even those of United States itself, where from abroad, observers say, it already looks like the Bush administration has overrun the system of checks and balances. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It seems as if the only thing that mattered was what the administration (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the members of the administration were saying, which is very unusual. And I would venture to say rather un-American.

BITTERMANN (on camera): And so, even before the first shot is fired in a new confrontation with Iraq, some believe there has already been some collateral damage. Jim Bittermann, CNN, Paris.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And still to come on NEWSNIGHT, more on this split over Iraq. We'll hear what journalists overseas think about the situation.

And later, in "Segment 7" tonight, a tiny Syrian town where families are worried about a possible war next door. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And next on NEWSNIGHT, we convene a roundtable of overseas journalists to talk about perception of the Bush administration and the possibility of a war with Iraq before and after.

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Pretty amazing when it seems like the smallest thing dividing Europe and America is the Atlantic Ocean.

Someone we talked to recently, author Robert Kagan measures the distance this way: Americans are from Mars; Europeans are from Venus, and, on the issue of Iraq, may have added a few million more miles to that.

We wanted to get a better sense of the mood in Europe and the Arab world as well on all things Iraq from some journalists who have been covering the debate; here in New York, Abderrahim Foukara of Al- Jazeera, the Arab TV network; also James Bone of "Times of London"; and, in Washington, Tom Buhrow of ARD, the German television network.

And, Tom, let me start with you.

The Germans, it seems to me, at least, have always had -- or in the post-World War II era -- a fondness for Americans and things American. Is there a lot of angst over this now in Germany?

TOM BUHROW, ARD: Definitely.

This is the one point where the government has the overwhelming majority of the population behind it. And what you can see is now anxiety over if America will destabilize world order. See, all the demonstrations that occurred in the past, 60's, '70s, '80s or whatever, usually were youth demonstrations, demonstrations of a peace movement, a pacifist part of the country.

Well, the conservative part of country -- I speak of the generation of my parents -- grateful for protection in the anti- communism time, were grateful for the protection. But America was seen as a stabilizer. And now, for the first time, across all generations, people are afraid that America might destabilize the world order and bring about, basically, the war that we want to avoid.

BROWN: James, in Britain, is it your sense that there is that concern or is it a different concern where the British are concerned?

JAMES BONE, "THE TIMES OF LONDON": Well, I think there are various strands in what one could call the peace movement. It's a very broad church. It ranges from the kind of a Marxist argument, no blood for oil, to the straightforward pacifists, blessed are the peacemakers, to quite a lot of people who just don't like George Bush and didn't like George Bush before Iraq was on the radar screen.

BROWN: How much of this is the personality of the administration?

BONE: I think that quite a lot is the personality.

You have to remember that, even before 9/11, there was a whole lot of disputes about international treaties, about the Kyoto protocol on the environment, about the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty with the Russians, about the International Criminal Court, things that people in Europe believe in that the Americans were walking away from. So, there was a lot of resentment already. At the moment, the anti- Americanism is ferocious in Britain.

BROWN: We're just back from Kuwait. We have a sense of what people in Kuwait think. And they certainly are supportive of the notion of war.

I'm curious what you think the take is in your part of the world about the period after the war and how much anxiety there is about an American occupation in Iraq.

ABDERRAHIM FOUKARA, AL-JAZEERA: I think there's a lot of anxiety. And people are very -- there's this serious sense of worry of the destabilization of the region that an occupation of Iraq by the United States could unleash right across the Arab world.

The Arabs have always had this ambivalent attitude towards the United States. On the one hand, they've always admired the United States. They've admired the power. They've admired their technology. They've admired the influence. But, at the same time, there's been a lot of resentment over the years. And that, I guess, has only got worse since 9/11.

And the resentment is basically centered on U.S. foreign policy in the region, beginning with U.S. foreign policy towards the Arab- Israeli conflict.

BROWN: And that's gotten worse since 9/11? FOUKARA: Well, it's gotten worse since 9/11 in the sense that a lot of people are saying that the U.S. is focusing on Iraq. And they fail to understand why the Bush administration is focusing on Iraq.

And, obviously, if you talk to the Bush administration, they say that their focus on Iraq has nothing to do with oil, for example. But to a lot of people in the Arab world, that is how they perceive the Bush administration's interest in Iraq.

BROWN: Let me go back the other way.

Tony Blair finds himself in a fascinating position. For much of his political life, he's been described as someone who sort of checks the wind before he takes a position. And here, clearly, the wind is blowing against him. What's your take? Does he survive all this?

BONE: Well, I think he survives quite easily. I think he's a conviction politician now, which is probably to his credit. I think that the public opinion will shift in Britain. The public opinion isn't as vehement in Britain as it is in some other countries.

BROWN: I saw a poll today that showed about 52 percent or so of the British public opposed to it. So, it's on the margins.

BONE: It's on the margin.

Blair, actually, what's interesting about him is that he's a large historical figure now, having won two landslide elections in Britain. And he's beginning to transcend party. And he has a following independent of party, actually. And he's trying to speak to that constituency. And he's speaking very emotionally, I think quite effectively, to it at the moment.

BROWN: Now, Tom, do you think there's a possibility that the Germans will come around in, let's say, this way, that - they obviously won't send troops into Iraq. Might they relieve some American troops who are stationed, let's say, in Afghanistan?

BUHROW: Oh, yes, definitely.

And that's something that gets lost. They are already doing it. They took over with the Dutch the command in Afghanistan. So G.I.s are already relieved to go to Iraq. They're protecting bases in Germany, so that people that got deployed, G.I.s that got deployed out of there, the bases are not without protection. There are armored vehicles, anti-chemical warfare vehicles, defensive vehicles, in Kuwait right now under the mandate of Enduring Freedom. But so what? They're there.

They will supply soldiers and the AWACs planes surveilling the skies. So, there are a lot of things that are already either committed or happening, including Patriot missiles to Israel, Patriot missiles promised to Turkey, etcetera.

BONE: I think you shouldn't overstate. One thing you've got to understand is the division within Europe. This is also about a battle for Europe. It's a battle, with the French and the Germans seeking a particular view of Europe, and the other countries around the edge seeking a different view of Europe. And that's been as important a dynamic in this as the U.S.-European dynamic.

BROWN: These two Europes look like what?

BONE: Well, one is narrow and deep and the other is broad and shallow, roughly speaking.

BROWN: But, in terms of issues, where do they break? Is there something here more than Iraq?

BONE: Oh, yes, there's much more than Iraq.

You have the ambition of the French, particularly, to build Europe as an alternative pole in the world to the United States. And Germany seems to have joined in that project. I think the French and German motives are slightly different. Germany, by its own history, has a reason to be pacifists, and a good reason to be pacifists. The French seem to be embarking on trying to, with the Germans, set up an alternative power center to the United States.

This is not something that Britain or Spain or Italy is trying to do. Britain or Spain or Italy have a much more American-style view of Europe, a much more multiethnic view of Europe than the French and the Germans do.

BROWN: Now, the administration will say that, while the governments in your part of the world may not publicly say so or may not publicly say it as loud as they would like, that, at least quietly, they support the idea of getting rid of Saddam Hussein. They would welcome it. True?

FOUKARA: Well, I think it depends which government you're talking about.

There's no denying the fact that there are some governments in the region, whether in the immediate vicinity of Iraq and the Gulf or elsewhere, who feel very nervous, basically, with all the stuff that has been going on in Iraq, basically since the pre-invasion of Kuwait in 1991. And they feel that, in some way, the government in Baghdad is basically a source of trouble for them, in the sense that there are a lot of people in their countries who basically feel very sympathetic with Iraq and the Iraqis.

And that basically creates some tension between these governments and their own people. And that puts these governments under some sort of pressure. There is this division between governments and people. As I said, not all governments are -- or would like to see Saddam go. But there are some. Certainly, there are some governments who would like to see that happen, but they are under pressure from their own people.

BROWN: There seems to be a lot of pressure from people all over the world.

Gentlemen, thanks for coming in. We should convene this yet again before too very long. Thank you.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll take a look from the morning papers from around the world and we'll end it all tonight with a trip to Syria and meet a family whose concerns about the war might match your own.

From New York and around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And coming up on NEWSNIGHT, we'll take a look at the morning papers from around the world and in your backyard.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: When we first got word of this story last night, we feared it would get bad. The bulletin said fire in a South Korean subway, several people hurt, then five dead. Then the numbers just kept rising. Tonight, it stands at 120 at least. Police have a suspect in custody who may have a history of mental illness.

Reporting for us, CNN's Rebecca MacKinnon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REBECCA MACKINNON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hell underground in the Taegu subway. Rescue crews managed to save more than 100 victims of the subway fire. This fireman says he tried to save more, but it was too hot to reach them.

Noxious fumes and smoke filled the underground station, making rescue even harder. The unlucky were burned, suffocated or crushed to death, trapped in subway cars whose doors could not open thanks to a power failure caused by the fire. A few are reported to have called their loved ones by cell phone in their last moments of life, victims of what appears to have been arson.

This eyewitness says he saw a man playing with a cigarette lighter. Then there was a struggle and a stampede out of the subway once the fire began to spread. The suspect, who witnesses said used the lighter to ignite a container full of a flammable substance, is now in a hospital and under police custody. South Korean media reports cited authorities who believe the man is mentally unstable.

The injured filled nearby hospitals, struggling to cope with the influx. For families of the victims: shock and disbelief, combing through lists of the names of the injured, clinging to the hope that their loved ones had been lucky enough to survive the mad inferno.

Rebecca MacKinnon, CNN, Seoul.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A couple more stories from around the world, starting in the Middle East: Israeli tanks have pulled out of Gaza City. They rolled in earlier today, they say in search of Hamas and Islamic Jihad guerrillas. Soldiers traded fire with Palestinian gunmen.

In all, the Palestinian say six of their own died. Hamas is claiming it blew up a tank in a suicide bombing -- Israel not confirming that yet. The Israeli government is calling the operation, two days so far, a limited one. There's been a great deal of speculation, in the Israeli press, at least, that a large-scale occupation of Gaza, to be a complicated piece of business, is in the cards.

And, no, it's not the Northeast. Some of the worst snowstorms in recent memory have hit the northern part of Afghanistan. Avalanches have shut down the main road between Kabul and points north, trouble for oil tankers and a headache for travelers -- How familiar is this? -- but potentially a godsend for farmers, who will need the water come spring.

All right, time to -- no, time to check the morning papers, right? Yes, time to check the morning papers, so that's what we'll do, going mostly east to west. When we first started doing this, it was a dozen years ago and we were working in the middle of the night and we had newspapers from everywhere. And we're working on that.

OK, "The Moscow Times" -- which always, by the way, has a fabulous picture in the middle, really cool photography. But the story that caught our eye: "Bill Makes Human Trafficking a Crime." They just got around to doing this, huh, making slavery a crime. Anyway, there it is up in the corner there of "The Moscow Times" in tomorrow's paper.

Choreography is difficult. "The Guardian" from London, a left- leaning newspaper, it is fair to say. There, is that better? I guess it is. "U.S. Plan For New Nuclear Arsenal." It is pretty -- "The Guardian" will frequently runs stories it perceives -- we wouldn't necessarily -- but it perceives as anti-administration, and did again.

This is "The Chicago Sun Times" tomorrow: "Daley Wants Jail For Club Owner," "Chicago Sun Times."

And we'll end it with "The Times of London." And here is why. "Marines" -- in this case, British Marines "Caught Short by a Lack of Loo Rolls." For those of you wondering, that is toilet paper. It seems that, in Kuwait, a shipment has yet to arrive, a front-page story in London tomorrow morning.

That's a look at the morning papers from around the world.

And a quick note about this program tomorrow night: just a compelling piece of work coming out of Houston, Texas, we're going to show you, a school where close to half the students have a parent in prison. You'll hear from these kids and you'll find out what one woman is doing to make sure that these children do not end up the way their parents have.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is you all's message to people that make those statements that, you're going to prison anyway, so why should we do anything? What do you all to say to America about that?

Tam? (ph)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To all those people who believe that, I want to let you know, we are precious. We will not follow our parents' ways. And we are going to do something with our life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: That's tomorrow night on NEWSNIGHT. You're going to love this piece and you're going to love these kids. That's tomorrow. Please join us.

But we're not done yet for tonight. When we come back, we go to Syria. Pulitzer Prize-winning photographer David Turnley is our guide: one village's view of a war which, in their case, would be right next door.

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Finally from us tonight, we suspect some of you have gotten together with your families, maybe around the dinner table, and talked about Iraq. So has the family you're about to meet.

Their home and neighborhood may not look like yours. Their food may not look familiar and their language, you may not recognize. But what they have to say probably will not sound so foreign. They fear the possibility of war, something that's especially potent when you realize this family lives in Syria, just a few hundred miles from a front line.

Their story from photographer David Turnley, who is now covering the region for CNN.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): My name is Noison Hassan (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): My name is Ganon Ati (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): My name is Hamud Ati (ph). And I am 9 years old.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I was born in Aleppo and I live in an old house that is not too big. It has three rooms and a courtyard. Aleppo is an old town. And its castle is very beautiful. All of Syria is beautiful. And it's our country and everybody loves their own country.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Today is our biggest religious holiday. It is a day of happiness for us. We go out with the children to play. We visit our family and relatives. Today, we are visiting my mother and father-in-law.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): In a Syrian household, men and women are both responsible. Of course, the man has his own things to do outside the house and the woman has her things inside.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): In the morning, when I get up, I wash my hands and face and I go fix the breakfast. Then I go to school. In school, I learn math, geography, art, sports and religion. I would like to work with computers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The dream I have for my children is that they continue their studies, choose whatever profession they want for themselves.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I would like to tell the Americans that Syria is a very old country, these people who live happily together, with great hospitality.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): America is a highly developed country. All people are brothers. Whether American or Arab, we are all brothers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I don't like war. I like peace. War means destruction and killing children.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): We don't like war at all because of the destruction and the killing of innocent children.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I would tell Saddam Hussein to be humble and to cooperate with the Americans. But we reject this war. We are against this war. We are afraid for ourselves and our children and the Iraqis and their children.

I would tell President Bush to take it easy and to be patient and, hopefully, peace will come, and this situation might be solved peacefully, for the sake of the children and the elderly and everyone. We don't like any kind of war. War is destruction for us and for them.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A view from a village in Syria.

A reminder that if you want to know what we're doing before we even do it on a program, you can go to our Web site, CNN.com/NEWSNIGHT. Sign up for our daily e-mail. We'll run down the program as it seems to be going about dinnertime and a lot of other interesting stuff as well.

We'll see you tomorrow. Good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

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