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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Iraq Accepts U.N. Demand to Destroy Banned Missiles; Remains of Some 9/11 Hijackers Identified

Aired February 27, 2003 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening again, everyone.
NEWSNIGHT writer Linda Keenan (ph), who is consistently smarter and always younger, wrote tonight's Page Two. She had Mr. Rogers on her mind, as Larry did a bit ago. We'll try to do her writing justice.

Wrote Linda: "We visited a wonderful place today, if only for a few minutes. It's a place where the scary world outside is allowed in, but only in careful doses. Where trusted friends talk about the painful issues quietly, calmly. A place where everyone's treated with the utmost respect and understanding. Where you can get advice on what you do with the mad that you feel. Your wildest imagination is just a trolley ride away. And, of course, every day is a beautiful day."

It was "Mister Rogers' Neighborhood," a place that's a lot lonelier today now that Fred Rogers has died. He once called the program a snug harbor -- it is certainly that -- where kids hear their parents talk about terror alerts and kidnapped kids and shootings at a school. There had to be a place where they could go and people to see, people like Mr. McFeely and Henrietta Pussycat.

And Linda added, "We were drawn to something Fred Rogers said about his mission. He said, 'It's very easy, for some reason, to make evil attractive, and it's very difficult to make goodness attractive. But goodness is what we must be about. Those of us who care about the future, it's the goodness that kids take comfort in, and it's something that adults raised out of decades ago still appreciate today. A grown-up's wish that peace and tolerance and good will reign supreme in a place beyond the land of make believe."

We begin with the real world and all its complications, of course. The debate over Iraq within the Security Council, Richard Roth, again, tonight leads us off. Richard, a headline from you, please.

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SR. U.N. CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Iraq says it will get rid of those missiles, but only with guidance on how to eliminate them. Meanwhile, the Security Council, home for peace and security, is anything but peaceful in the search for a resolution solution.

BROWN: Richard, thank you. Back to you at the top tonight. The diplomacy continues, so does the military buildup. Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon with the story. Jamie, the headline.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, the U.S. is putting together the final pieces of its war plan. The last carrier has arrived in the Persian Gulf. B-2 bombers are moving. But for now, the big question remains Turkey -- Aaron.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you.

The vision for Iraq after the war, if there is a war. Chris Burns on that from a very white White House tonight. Chris, the headline.

CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron. As President Bush pushes for regime change and even looks beyond Saddam Hussein, he holds up a test case: Afghanistan. And invites here to the White House the man who replaced the Taliban, Hamid Karzai.

BROWN: Chris, thank you.

And more remains have been identified involved in the attack on 9/11, but these remains are not from the victims. Jamie Colby worked on the story for us today. Jamie, a headline from you.

JAMIE COLBY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Aaron. Two positive I.D.s through DNA testing, both of hijackers. But officials aren't saying which -- Aaron.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you. Back to you and all of the rest shortly.

Also coming up tonight: tough questions today on Capitol Hill for the man who runs NASA. We'll talk with Sean O'Keefe and look at whether concerns about the Columbia got enough attention, the right attention before the shuttle broke apart.

Something that's getting a lot of play after the terrible case of Jesica Santillan, the debate over how much is enough in certain damages for medical malpractice. You'll hear both sides.

And "Segment 7" tonight remembers an old family friend. We'll pay our respects to Mr. Rogers tonight, but we start off in a different neighborhood entirely.

An awkward spot on the road between war and peace. This is the place where the final decisions are made, where arms are twisted and minds made up. But it's also the place where the unexpected can happen, and it did again today.

Going into today, the latest CNN-"USA Today" Gallup poll showed that a majority of Americans support a war to remove Saddam Hussein; 37 percent oppose it. On the other hand, 40 percent say the United States should get U.N. approval for any war, while 38 percent would approve a war even without U.N. backing. Nineteen percent say no war at all. And just 33 percent of the people surveyed said they would support this war if Iraq destroys those short-range missiles the U.N. inspectors want destroyed. So at the precise moment when the Bush administration is lobbying hard for a Security Council resolution, and Hans Blix is preparing what was expected to be a pessimistic report on Iraqi cooperation, Iraq begins showing signs of cooperating. Here, again, CNN's Richard Roth.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROTH (voice-over): Iraq says it accepts the U.N.'s demand to destroy the banned missiles that fly too far in violation of Security Council law. Baghdad faced a Saturday deadline to begin dismantling the Al Samoud II missiles. However, in dealing with the U.N., yes can mean maybe. While accepting in principle the U.N. edict, in the same letter, Baghdad calls the request unfair and says it does not know how to destroy the missiles.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: This is exactly what's been going on for years. They refuse to cooperate, don't cooperate, drag it out, wait till someone finally nails them with one little piece of the whole puzzle.

ROTH: Chief U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix ordered the missile destruction. The outcome will be added to his latest report on Iraq's cooperation. But even if Iraq gets rid of missiles, in a draft version of the report obtained by CNN, Blix says over the last three months, the results in terms of disarmament, have been very limited so far. Blix also says it is hard to understand why a number of the measures which are now being taken could not have been initiated earlier.

The Security Council receives the report Friday. And it will add even more fuel to a now hotly divided international panel. After what was described as an intense closed-door meeting, the Council was openly split over a new resolution proposed by the U.S., U.K. and Spain, a virtual authorization for war. Breaking with diplomatic protocol, one of the uncommitted countries on the Council, Chile, pointed fingers at both the U.S. camp and the European Russian side.

JUAN GABRIEL VALDES, CHILEAN AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: This divided Council is, in fact, throwing the decision on the shoulders of the elected members, while the permanent members stick to their positions without making efforts to approximate their views.

ROTH: It was the first meeting for the Council as a whole on the resolution. Several diplomats said no nations buzzed in an effort to close gaps.

JEREMY GREENSTOCK, BRITISH AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: There is no future in the inspectors unless they have the cooperation of Iraq.

JEAN-MARC DE LA SABLIERE, FRENCH AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: That in the Council, the majority of the members think that the time has now come to decide to go to war.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROTH: The British ambassador dismissed the rebellion among the swing votes. He said there are conversations going on between governments and capitals around the world that delegates here are not aware of. There was one bid to move ahead. The German ambassador, outgoing president of the Council, gave the five permanent members who are quarreling a pair of binoculars as a going away gift to look forward. The Russian ambassador, Aaron, said, "We are now all inspectors" -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, in many ways, I think the Chilean ambassador hit on an interesting point today. Because, the way I heard it, he was saying, you big countries, you powerful countries, get together and find a deal you can all agree on. Is that possible?

ROTH: That's possible still. There is still time. Canada has a compromise bid, which both sides also dismissed. But, again, the U.S. is ready to go it alone. But what was interesting, the atmosphere was really bitter today. You just don't see it that often.

Maybe there are going to be three sides to this quarrel if the uncommitted six hold in the middle. It will be very interesting to watch over the next week.

BROWN: Richard, thank you. Richard Roth at the U.N., which may be one of the most interesting places on the planet these days.

On to the military side of things. Today, the writers and producers on our staff got a memo with a list of cliches to avoid: tightening the screws, ratcheting up the pressure, cocking the trigger, that sort of thing. Here is the problem: they all fit the picture today.

Here is CNN's Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over): Deployment orders have been signed for B- 2 Stealth bombers to begin moving next week from Whiteman Air Force base in Missouri to a forward base in Diego Garcia. The British base in the Indian Ocean is roughly 3,200 miles from Baghdad, about a six- hour flight for the subsonic B-2s.

Pentagon sources say the arrival of the aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk in the Persian Gulf this week completes the planned deployment of five carriers called for in the U.S. war plan. Sources say, unlike in the 1991 Gulf War, two carriers will be based in the eastern Mediterranean Sea and will send their war planes over a northern route, avoiding Syrian and Jordanian air space by flying and refueling over Turkey. While three other carriers in the Persian Gulf will attack from the south, flying over Kuwait and Saudi air space.

Meanwhile, Iraqis are girding for war, digging wells, stacking sandbags and buying guns. Pentagon sources say the Iraqi military is digging trenches and filling them with oil. A tactic Saddam Hussein could use to wring Baghdad with smoke and fire. HUSSAIN AL-SHAHRISTANI, FMR. IRAQI NUCLEAR SCIENTIST: Whenever he decides the time is right, he will try to detonate it, so as to entrap the people inside the city and also to hinder the advancement of the troops to the city.

MCINTYRE: While the smoke could thwart laser-guided bombs, it would provide no defense against satellite-guided bombs, which are the weapons of choice for the Pentagon. The U.S. is also watching the movement of Iraq's first (UNINTELLIGIBLE) mechanized Republican Guard division south from their usual base in Mosul, to an area just of north of Tikrit, a power base for Saddam Hussein.

The troops could move farther south to defend Baghdad, but some Pentagon officials think Iraq may be hesitating to see if the U.S. seals a deal to base its troops in Turkey.

(on camera): The Pentagon is very frustrated that the Turkish parliament has put off a vote on the deployment until the weekend. That has left 40 U.S. military transport ships languishing in the Mediterranean Sea, just waiting to unload equipment. Pentagon officials say they can't wait much longer before they may have to give up on Turkey and send the troops and equipment to Kuwait instead. Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We've been dealing throughout the week with the question of what comes after a war should a war come. Among all the other uncertainties, this one seems to be the deepest. Because you have to reach back to post-war Japan or Germany for something on a similar scale. And even there, the differences probably outweigh the similarities.

But if the administration isn't have much to go by, it does have Kuwait and it does have Afghanistan. From the White House tonight, CNN's Chris Burns.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BURNS (voice-over): From a land where the U.S. toppled a terrorist-linked regime, Afghanistan's new leader comes to express his gratitude.

PRESIDENT HAMID KARZAI, AFGHANISTAN: I'm also here to ask you to do more for us in making the life of that Afghan people better, more stable, more peaceful.

BURNS: In other words, it's a costly job that's far from over, where true democracy is also a far away dream. Nevertheless, President Bush is pushing regime change and nation building in another land.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Rebuilding Iraq will require a sustained commitment from many nations, including our own. We will remain in Iraq as long as necessary, and not a day more. BURNS: Quite a change from his days on the campaign trail, blasting the Clinton-Gore administration for attempted nation building in Somalia and elsewhere.

BUSH: I worry about the fact I'm running against a man who uses the military and nation building in the same breath.

BURNS: The White House argues it won't be using the military for nation building.

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The military is there for the purpose of providing security.

BURNS: If President Bush sees the toppling of Saddam Hussein as having positive ripple effects in the Middle East, the last Gulf War has yet to produce a truly democratic Kuwait.

SHIBLEY TELHAMI, UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND: The public opinion, as U.N. reflected by some of the victories of Islamist groups even in Kuwait, which is friendly, has been less friendly to America than has been the government. And often, the U.S. has been very nervous.

BURNS: Kid gloves probably also required in Iraq, with autonomy-minded Kurds and a large Shiite population long frozen out of power.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BURNS: President Bush's picture of post-Saddam Middle East appears aimed at persuading the public opinion that it could be a long commitment to be involved in Iraq. And also aimed at persuading that perhaps the potential benefits from getting involved in Iraq could outweigh the potential risks and the costs -- Aaron.

BROWN: I'll try and keep the question very brief. Any reaction from the White House today on the missile destroying decision out of Iraq?

BURNS: President Bush saying that it is only the tip of the iceberg. That even if Saddam did comply with that, it is not nearly enough. That there must be total and complete disarmament of weapons of mass destruction. And he says the time is running out to do that.

BROWN: Out of the cold, Chris. Thank you, Chris Burns, at the White House tonight.

A few more items caught our eye from the polling we mentioned at the top of the program. These dealing with terrorism. The question: "Is your family ready to deal with a terrorist attack?" Forty-three percent said yes; 55 percent said no.

"Does your family have a safe room," we asked. Thirty-eight percent of the people surveyed said yes they did; 61 percent said no. "Are you paying more or less or the same amount of attention to government terrorist alerts than you did a year ago?" A bare majority say they pay more attention, 51 percent; 34 percent say the same amount. And 14 percent say they pay less attention.

And, on that note today, the government announced that the alert level, which had been orange for the last several weeks, is back down again to yellow. Ahead on NEWSNIGHT: the World Trade Center attack. Using DNA to identify the remains of the hijackers.

And later tonight, we'll talk with NASA chief Sean O'Keefe about the investigation into the shuttle accident. Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Occasionally, you see a number reported on the number of people killed on 9/11. And almost always, we'll get an angry response from a viewer, "It's 19 too many," that viewer will say. "The hijackers ought not be included." And they're right, of course.

It would be a terrible injustice to blur the line between killer and victim. Some of the families are trying to prevent just that kind of injustice. A final indignity for their loved ones. Only here, the blurring involves something more tangible and a lot more emotional than just the list of names. Reporting for us, CNN's Jamie Colby.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COLBY (voice-over): When families of 9/11 World Trade Center victims learned the unidentified remains of their loved ones would be included in a planned memorial, they feared those remains could end up alongside remains of the hijackers who killed them. A sentiment echoed by New York Governor George Pataki.

GOV. GEORGE PATAKI (R), NEW YORK: Well, I think it's important that the remains that are relocated to ground zero are the remains of the heroes who died and not of those evil murderers. And I'm pleased that the medical examiner has been able to identify some of their remains so they can go rot in hell.

COLBY: Several weeks ago, the FBI turned over DNA profiles of the 10 World Trade Center hijackers at the request of New York City's medical examiner, who has made two positive I.D.s. Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, a forensic scientist, says that match provides physical proof the suspected terrorists were at the scene of the crime.

DR. LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: This is actually the first confirmation that these individuals were on these planes.

COLBY: Law enforcement sources confirm those profiles were created from samples obtained at locations the terrorists frequented.

KOBILINSKY: Now we have their genetics and we can actually use this information to follow them. Where have they been in the past? Perhaps, we can hook them up to other individuals.

COLBY: Without compromising the integrity of those who died and are never identified. MONICA IKEN, HUSBAND DIED IN WTC ATTACK: My concerns are the memorial. I -- you know, I have to worry about my husband's final resting place. And, to me, making sure that we have a beautiful place to go in the future.

COLBY (on camera): The medical examiner is still trying to identify the remaining eight hijackers. Meanwhile, close to half of the nearly 2,800 victims of the World Trade Center attacks have not yet been positively identified. Jamie Colby, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A few stories from around the country tonight, beginning with the Rhode Island fire. A week ago now, perhaps the first thing we've had to report on that that we could possibly describe as good news. Rhode Island's governor announced today that the number of dead has been lowered. Barely, but lowered from 97 to 96. Apparently, there was one missing person report included, someone they don't believe was a victim in that fire a week ago tonight.

On to accusations of sexual assault within the Air Force Academy. Air Force Secretary James Roach said today, "We've got to make sure if a female cadet comes forward, it's not open season on their life." Twenty current and former female cadets at the Air Force Academy have said they were disciplined after coming forward with a complaint.

And they are mesmerizing to watch, and authorities from Los Angeles say that's part of the problem. Police are urging news stations to cut down on live coverage of car chases. Will life in L.A. ever be the same? They say that some of the bad guys are just looking for attention.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, the investigation into the shuttle accident. We'll talk with the NASA administrator, Sean O'Keefe, who testified today before Congress. From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Latest now on the Shuttle Columbia disaster. The head of NASA, Sean O'Keefe, was on Capitol Hill today, where legislators put a lot of focus on e-mails that came to light yesterday. They showed there was a fierce debate among engineers, though not at the highest levels, on whether damage to the shuttle during liftoff could prove disastrous during reentry.

A lot of questions surrounding the debate. How was it handled? Who should have known about it? Could anything have been done to save the shuttle? We put some of those questions to Mr. O'Keefe ourselves earlier tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: I want to talk broadly about where the investigation is in a minute. But I think people who watched us last night or read the morning papers today are interested in these e-mails that were, at least, troubling and, clearly, some of the engineers were troubled by them. Are you confident that the information flow that NASA had in place worked?

SEAN O'KEEFE, NASA ADMINISTRATOR: I mean, it is clear evidence that there was a very spirited discussion, as there is in every one of these scenarios, of trying to deal with what could happen, what might happen, working through all the what ifs in order to determine what could be done if it was determined to be a safety of flight issue. And at the end of that whole dialogue, after several days of working that through, all of the engineers and technical folks at the appropriate levels here made the determination that, based on the preponderance of evidence, this was not a safety of flight consideration.

BROWN: Do you know now, in fact, how high up the chain of command those e-mails that we looked at went?

O'KEEFE: Yes. It appears to have certainly been dealt with as part of the mission operation directorate effort, which is exactly the level that typically issues are always vetted and sorted out. There are certainly indications from all of the traffic that was raised at a variety of different levels throughout the shuttle program, as well, and at certain senior levels within various centers of the NASA family as well.

So working through this, it appears as though there was lots of dialogue, lots of exchange. There were folks in varying levels of the organization who were communicating directly with each other. And, again, that's the kind of dialogue and exchange that we see and want to encourage each and every time.

BROWN: So just trying to sort through a lot of stuff now, and I want to move on here, if I can.

O'KEEFE: Yes, sir.

BROWN: You are confident that people who needed -- who were capable of making decisions, or at least encouraging that decisions be made -- it's a complicated bureaucracy that is involved here, but that the information flow system worked? You're confident of that?

O'KEEFE: It appears so. But, again, you know, the examination that the Columbia accident investigation board is looking at here is not only what caused the accident -- we're hopeful that they come back with a definitive commentary on what they believe was the cause or probable cause of this terrible tragedy -- but also looking at the systemic and the management kinds of issues. Were the judgments made at the right levels and so forth?

And I'm going to be guided by their findings. Because they're far enough removed from this to be able to give us a solid independent judgment at that point. Based on the evidence we've seen, it looks like there was a spirited exchange between lots of levels and lots of technical issues being -- going on that was not based on some hierarchy issue.

It was all within varying levels throughout the organization and that's heartening. Again, I need to be guided by that independent look.

BROWN: Let me try and go two for one here, if I can. Are you confident that the board will come to a conclusion? That they'll understand what went wrong? And do you have any sense, is it possible to have any sense of when the shuttle will fly again?

O'KEEFE: Well, the confidence is generated by the commentary from Admiral Gayman (ph), the chairman of that board, as well as his board members who have offered us how they think they're working through this in a very disciplined manner. They've narrowed it down to a select number of issues after examining the faulty analysis they have been engaged in. And the pace of the investigation is picking up.

So it appears as though there is a likelihood, and they've offered their public statements in their press conferences, is that they feel like they're starting to narrow in on a number of areas. Having said that, you know, it's impossible to predict when and how, or what the findings will be. And certainly we'll learn that when they're concluded, and I don't want to rush that, or encourage them to rush any judgment.

In terms of how long will it take before we get back to flight, again, that's a real tough one, because if their recommendations -- and among these board members, they have over 50 accidents that they have investigated in the course of their respective professional careers -- and they also know that during the course of findings, what we really need to look at are the kinds of things that would inform decision-making about returning to operations.

And if committed to that publicly, they've said that in their press conferences that I've heard. And so, as a consequence, we're looking forward to whatever guidance they can give us, whenever they can give it to us. And we'll be positioned to make the recommendation changes and corrections, whatever they may be, in an effort to try to expeditiously get back to safe flight. But only if we can guarantee and satisfy ourselves, and in fact if there's a way to get back to operational safe flight.

BROWN: The tragedy touched all of us. It obviously acutely touched you and the people you work with. We appreciate your time tonight. I know it's been a long day for you. Thank you.

O'KEEFE: No, thank you, Aaron. It's a pleasure to be with you.

BROWN: Sean O'Keefe, the NASA administrator.

Still to come on NEWSNIGHT: The debate over malpractice, it's on Capitol Hill now. Just what does a family serve when medical mistakes take a life?

And "Segment Seven" tonight: a loving farewell to Mr. Rogers. Jeff Greenfield joins us for that.

This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And next on NEWSNIGHT: the cost of medical mistakes and who should pay and how much.

A short break and we're right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: I laugh at those sometimes.

Lawyers have a saying: Hard cases make bad laws. And on the question of medical malpractice, there are plenty of hard cases wherever you look. There is a tendency with this issue, as there is with so many of issues these days, to reduce it to something so simple as black and white. We submit, it is not that simple.

There are, in fact, trivial claims. There are also horrible mistakes and gross negligence. And the question is, what system should be in place to discourage the first, while making sure the victims of the latter are fairly served? Today in the House, hearings were held on a bill to cap the amount of money malpractice victims could receive for pain and suffering.

Here's CNN's Jonathan Karl.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As most of the country watched the heart-wrenching story of Jesica Santillan unfold as she lost her life following a botched transplant operation, Democrats saw an opportunity.

SEN. RICHARD DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: I think this is going to end up being the centerpiece for the debate on medical malpractice, because you can't think of a more compelling case.

KARL: Democrats hope Jesica's story will help them defeat a Republican plan to limit medical malpractice lawsuits, a major priority outlined in the president's State of the Union address.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No one has ever been healed by a frivolous lawsuit. I urge the Congress to pass medical liability reform.

KARL (on camera): The Republican plan would still allow people to sue for unlimited economic damages, such as loss of income, but it would limit pain-and-suffering awards to $250,000 and put a similar cap on punitive damages.

(voice-over): The Santillan family's lawyer is already lobbying Congress to oppose the president's plan.

KURT DIXON, ATTORNEY FOR SANTILLAN FAMILY: I look forward to telling Congress how wrong it would be to pass this litigation, which places the interests of the insurance industry above the interests of families like Jesica's. KARL: At a hearing today, Democrats introduced Heather Lewinsky, whose face was disfigured after a botched operation. They say she is another example of the kind of victim who would be hurt by malpractice reform.

HEATHER LEWINSKY, MALPRACTICE VICTIM: I took the bandage off my face and looked in the mirror and I just cried. I could not believe what he had done to my face.

KARL: Lewinsky, however, has already sued and says she received an award considerably higher than the Republican plan would allow. Republicans say they would not put a limit on damages in cases of gross negligence.

Doctors around the country have staged a series of protests against what they call out-of-control malpractice lawsuits that have driven up insurance premiums and forced some doctors out of work.

SEN. JUDD GREGG (R), NEW HAMPSHIRE: People in trauma situations who are hurt in car accidents aren't going to have a doctor in the emergency room. Women who have serious complications in their pregnancy aren't going to be able to see a doctor. Their OB/GYN doctor will have left the practice.

KARL: Most doctors agree with that assessment. But malpractice reform will be a tough political sell on Capitol Hill, one made even tougher after the traffic and high-profile medical blunder that killed Jesica Santillan.

Jonathan Karl, Capitol Hill.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: I'm joined tonight from Washington by Dr. Donald Palmisano, the president-elect of the American Medical Association; and, in San Francisco, Mary Alexander, who is the president of the Association of Trial Lawyers.

Good to have you both with us.

DR. DONALD PALMISANO, PRESIDENT-ELECT, AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION: Thank you.

MARY ALEXANDER, PRESIDENT, ASSOCIATION OF TRIAL LAWYERS: Nice to be with you.

Doc, let's start with you.

Jesica's case have anything to do with medical malpractice reform?

PALMISANO: Well, it's a tragic case. And the American Medical Association expresses its heartfelt sympathy to the family of Jesica.

And we also express our sympathy to the wonderful doctors and the hospital, with the wonderful reputation that they have. This is a system problem. And what we need to do is to have a system that allows errors to be identified before they harm patients. And we need a system that makes sure that doctors are there when patients need them in their hour of need, women who are about to have a baby, someone in an auto accident.

BROWN: Doctor, let me just try the question again, if I can, because this case comes at a very important time for the AMA and for proponents of reform. Does this case have a bearing on the debate or does it not?

PALMISANO: Well, I think it's a very important case. And the current system did not prevent this error from occurring.

What we need is a system where we can have experts look at everything that happens in a facility, give feedback to the facility, and disseminate that information, lessons learned, to everyone in America, every institution. The current system doesn't allow that. And we're for patient safety. We're for the reporting bills that would allow voluntary confidential reporting, review by experts, akin to the aviation safety reporting system.

BROWN: Let me go to Ms. Alexander for a second.

Obviously, you see the Jesica case differently. And let me turn the question around. Do you actually believe that these pain-and- suffering awards, which, do, in fact, run into the many, many millions of dollars sometimes, punitive damages, actually make medical care any better?

ALEXANDER: Jesica is a powerful symbol of why the proposed $250,000 arbitrary cap, a one-size-fits-all cap, simply is wrong and does not compensate the people in our society that are most seriously injured by medical malpractice, the children, women, the elderly, those who are least able to absorb this loss.

And what the AMA and the insurance companies want to do is to put this arbitrary cap on people like Jesica, people like Linda McDougal, who had a double-mastectomy because the doctors got her pathology slides messed up and she didn't have cancer. Caps don't work. And we've proven that in California. And this law that they're trying to take from here in California and give to the rest of the country has been shown not to work.

BROWN: Ms. Alexander...

ALEXANDER: In 1975...

BROWN: I'm sorry. Let me -- this apparently is my day to ask the same question twice. Let me try it with you again.

Do you actually believe that these multimillion-dollar punitive- damages pain-and-suffering awards make medical care any better?

ALEXANDER: Well, there's pain and suffering, which is what people like Jesica's family are compensated for the loss of their child. And that's what they're talking about putting a $250,000 arbitrary cap.

And then there's punitive damages, which is a separate issue, which is to punish. And, yes, I think that there are -- these awards hold doctors and insurance companies accountable when there are terrible wrongs and that they need to make sure -- we need to make sure that people who are seriously injured are taken care of.

BROWN: Doctor, it seems to me, already, there is a slight weakening in the mood on the Hill that may or may not be related to Jesica's case. And that is this notion of a cap, except when the negligence is gross. Where is the AMA on that?

PALMISANO: Well, the American Medical Association wants a proven treatment.

The California cap does work. And there are other states that are considered stable and they have caps that have been very effective. And so the American Medical Association says, we ought to use a proven treatment, rather than an experimental treatment, because we're worried about the rest of the population. We're worried about those women in Philadelphia. We're worried about the women in South Florida who won't be able to find a doctor when the baby is coming. We're worried about the people who are in accidents.

So we think this is a very important case. It's a tragic case, but it underscores the need to change the system. Even the Institute of Medicine said we need to look at a systems approach. We're in a shame-and-blame environment right now. These doctors did not want to hurt Jesica. They have perfected their skills and a tragic error occurred. We need to fix the error.

BROWN: Doctor -- would I be -- I'm sorry.

PALMISANO: Yes, sir.

BROWN: Would I be wrong in saying that you do not support the notion of a separate area of unlimited damages in cases where gross negligence is proven?

PALMISANO: Well, Aaron, it depends on the definition. Of course, words mean something, so we have to look at the wording, what is meant.

If there is an intentional act, reckless disregard, that's one thing. But in a true negligence action, it's an unintentional act -- someone falls below the standard care and that directly causes harm to the individual -- we believe that the California cap -- and the evidence shows the rates there for an obstetrician would be $57,000 to $58,000 -- compared to south Florida -- this is Los Angeles compared to Miami -- it will be $210,000 this year.

BROWN: Both of you, thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: I'm sorry. Thank you both. This is a complicated piece of business. The debate is just starting. And we'll come back again.

PALMISANO: Thank you, Aaron.

BROWN: We'll bring you both back and do it again.

PALMISANO: Thank you very much.

BROWN: Thank you very much.

ALEXANDER: Thank you very much.

PALMISANO: A privilege to be here.

BROWN: Thank you.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT -- that was work tonight -- ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll check the morning papers.

Short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And when we come back, morning papers -- lots of cool papers today.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A few stories from around the world here quickly to get in: Three astronauts aboard the International Space Station will be replaced by a new crew in late April or early May. They'll get there by Russian spacecraft, not the shuttle. Atlantis the shuttle was originally supposed to pick up the crew, but, of course, all shuttles scrapped for a while because of the Columbia disaster.

A scare this morning for an Air France Concorde flight, though no one knew it until it landed. The Concorde, 47 people on board, lost parts of the rudder during a flight from Paris to New York. The crew did not realize the plan had been damaged until after it landed safely.

Some controversy in Australia after leaders of the Victoria state legislature barred a member from breast-feeding her baby in the parliamentary chamber. There is no rule against breast-feeding, but there is a rule against bringing in people who haven't been elected. My goodness. Legislative leaders insist the baby was not elected.

Morning papers, OK? Lots of sort of interesting things.

I have just fallen in love with "The Detroit Free Press." They're doing a terrific job, a lot of good local stories in "The Free Press," a GM story and the like. But they've done a terrific job at humanizing and personalizing the war. This is the story -- or the possibility of a war -- the story of a young man who decided to join the Army and was sworn in, I gather, yesterday and was shipped off to Fort Benning today or last night.

"Chicago Sun-Times": Mostly gloomy is the weather. Here's the other end. This is a World War II vet who, for 50 years, has been trying to get his medals, the medals that he earned and hasn't got them. And they're running with that story on the front page. And Mr. Rogers is on the front page, too. He's on the front page of lots of papers.

For "The Miami Herald," I hadn't seen this story, but this is a really good example of newspapers serving their community again: "Greenspan Urges Curb on Social Security." The head of the Federal Reserve was up on the Hill talking about the need to pay seniors less. And in a community like Miami, with lots of seniors, that would sell some newspapers. And it should. It's a good story.

Show me the terror dome thing. You got that picture ready? We came across this picture today. You may see this in your newspaper tomorrow. Some people may buy these things, right. They have their own air-filtration system. I get it. You put them in your backyard. And in case your neighborhood gets hit by a terrorist attack or a chemical attack, you would go hang out in there. It's kind of an above-ground version of the fallout shelters. If you're old enough, you remember those things.

How we doing on time? Quickly, then.

Here's how a couple of papers played the Security Council story today. "San Francisco Chronicle": "Bitter Split in Security Council Over Iraq." "The Times of London": "Inspectors Give U.S. and Britain New War Boost."

And I want to get two more in: "Key States Bow to War Pressure." That is how "The Guardian" played it.

This is my favorite. What did I do with it? Oh, Aaron. Here we go. This is the Pittsburgh paper, OK? And this is where Mr. Rogers, Fred Rogers, was from. And that's their front page today. Is that a great front page or what? "Farewell, Neighbor" -- "The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette." Nicely done. And thanks for getting us the paper.

And we'll take our own look at Mr. Rogers -- Jeff Greenfield will -- after a short break.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Fred Rogers was 74 when he died today.

Perhaps the best tribute to Mr. Rogers we found was found on the Web site at his production company. It comes not in a list of accomplishments, though the accomplishments were many, but in some words of advice for parents on helping children deal with Mr. Rogers' death: "Listen to your children. It's OK to say, 'I don't know.' Happy times and sad times are a part of everyone's life. It's OK to cry," some gentle advice on the passing today of a gentle man. Here's CNN's Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): Fred Rogers, Mr. Rogers to you and me, has been walking through the same door for more than 30 years.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "MISTER ROGERS' NEIGHBORHOOD")

FRED ROGERS, HOST (singing): It's a beautiful day in this neighborhood, a beautiful day for a neighbor. Would you be mine? Could you be mine?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GREENFIELD: Walking into his living room and ours, inviting our children to his neighborhood and to his land of make-believe.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "MISTER ROGERS' NEIGHBORHOOD")

ROGERS (singing): Could you be mine?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROGERS: The whole idea is to look at the television camera and present as much love as you possibly could.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stand by for rehearsal, please.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Action.

GREENFIELD: If it all seemed a bit old-fashioned in this era of fast-paced cartoons and quick edits and product tie-ins, that's because Mr. Rogers kept some old-fashioned notions about television throughout his life and work, notions you don't hear much these days.

ROGERS: I believe that those of us who are the producers and purveyors of television, I believe that we are the servants of this nation.

GREENFIELD: Fred Rogers didn't plan on a career in television. He was a music major at Rollins College. He wanted to be a composer. But there was something about television, then in its earliest years, something that interested and annoyed him at the same time.

ROGERS: I got into television because I hated it so.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE CHILDREN'S CORNER")

ANNOUNCER: "The Children's Corner."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GREENFIELD: He began by writing and producing a program called "The Children's Corner." Then, after a short stint on Canadian television, "Mister Rogers' Neighborhood" was born. That was back in 1968, making it PBS' longest-running show.

ROGERS: What a fine boy you are.

GREENFIELD: Making him a star to the under-6 set and their parents. It was a golden opportunity to cash in, an opportunity he never took.

ROGERS: I never had much of a desire for a fancy lifestyle. And I never needed a lot of fancy things.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "MISTER ROGERS' NEIGHBORHOOD")

DAVID NEWELL, ACTOR/P.R. DIRECTOR: I've just completed working on something.

ROGERS: What is it?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GREENFIELD: Some of the characters on his last shows, like Mr. McFeely, were original. So were some of the sweaters, which were all Christmas gifts knitted by his late mother.

ROGERS: My mother made a sweater a month for as many years as I knew her. And every Christmas, she would give this extended family of ours a sweater.

GREENFIELD: But if life inside the neighborhood remained something of a time capsule, life outside the neighborhood changed dramatically from the '60s to the millennium. But for Fred Rogers, it always came back to the children, to what they needed.

ROGERS: We all long to be lovable and capable of loving. And whatever we can do, through the "Neighborhood" or anything else, to reflect that and to encourage people to be in touch with that, then I think that's our ministry.

GREENFIELD: Mr. Rogers' demeanor often made him a target for parody. Surely, no one could really be that innocent, that gentle. But, for years, Fred Rogers was one of the most requested speakers at college commencements, suggesting that, long after his audience had left childhood behind, they found themselves hungry for another visit to his neighborhood.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Many thanks to PBS for helping us with some pictures in that.

Many thanks to you for joining us tonight. We're back here tomorrow, 10:00 Eastern time. We hope you'll join us as well for Friday's NEWSNIGHT.

Until then, good night for all of us. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Remains of Some 9/11 Hijackers Identified>


Aired February 27, 2003 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening again, everyone.
NEWSNIGHT writer Linda Keenan (ph), who is consistently smarter and always younger, wrote tonight's Page Two. She had Mr. Rogers on her mind, as Larry did a bit ago. We'll try to do her writing justice.

Wrote Linda: "We visited a wonderful place today, if only for a few minutes. It's a place where the scary world outside is allowed in, but only in careful doses. Where trusted friends talk about the painful issues quietly, calmly. A place where everyone's treated with the utmost respect and understanding. Where you can get advice on what you do with the mad that you feel. Your wildest imagination is just a trolley ride away. And, of course, every day is a beautiful day."

It was "Mister Rogers' Neighborhood," a place that's a lot lonelier today now that Fred Rogers has died. He once called the program a snug harbor -- it is certainly that -- where kids hear their parents talk about terror alerts and kidnapped kids and shootings at a school. There had to be a place where they could go and people to see, people like Mr. McFeely and Henrietta Pussycat.

And Linda added, "We were drawn to something Fred Rogers said about his mission. He said, 'It's very easy, for some reason, to make evil attractive, and it's very difficult to make goodness attractive. But goodness is what we must be about. Those of us who care about the future, it's the goodness that kids take comfort in, and it's something that adults raised out of decades ago still appreciate today. A grown-up's wish that peace and tolerance and good will reign supreme in a place beyond the land of make believe."

We begin with the real world and all its complications, of course. The debate over Iraq within the Security Council, Richard Roth, again, tonight leads us off. Richard, a headline from you, please.

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SR. U.N. CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Iraq says it will get rid of those missiles, but only with guidance on how to eliminate them. Meanwhile, the Security Council, home for peace and security, is anything but peaceful in the search for a resolution solution.

BROWN: Richard, thank you. Back to you at the top tonight. The diplomacy continues, so does the military buildup. Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon with the story. Jamie, the headline.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, the U.S. is putting together the final pieces of its war plan. The last carrier has arrived in the Persian Gulf. B-2 bombers are moving. But for now, the big question remains Turkey -- Aaron.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you.

The vision for Iraq after the war, if there is a war. Chris Burns on that from a very white White House tonight. Chris, the headline.

CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron. As President Bush pushes for regime change and even looks beyond Saddam Hussein, he holds up a test case: Afghanistan. And invites here to the White House the man who replaced the Taliban, Hamid Karzai.

BROWN: Chris, thank you.

And more remains have been identified involved in the attack on 9/11, but these remains are not from the victims. Jamie Colby worked on the story for us today. Jamie, a headline from you.

JAMIE COLBY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Aaron. Two positive I.D.s through DNA testing, both of hijackers. But officials aren't saying which -- Aaron.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you. Back to you and all of the rest shortly.

Also coming up tonight: tough questions today on Capitol Hill for the man who runs NASA. We'll talk with Sean O'Keefe and look at whether concerns about the Columbia got enough attention, the right attention before the shuttle broke apart.

Something that's getting a lot of play after the terrible case of Jesica Santillan, the debate over how much is enough in certain damages for medical malpractice. You'll hear both sides.

And "Segment 7" tonight remembers an old family friend. We'll pay our respects to Mr. Rogers tonight, but we start off in a different neighborhood entirely.

An awkward spot on the road between war and peace. This is the place where the final decisions are made, where arms are twisted and minds made up. But it's also the place where the unexpected can happen, and it did again today.

Going into today, the latest CNN-"USA Today" Gallup poll showed that a majority of Americans support a war to remove Saddam Hussein; 37 percent oppose it. On the other hand, 40 percent say the United States should get U.N. approval for any war, while 38 percent would approve a war even without U.N. backing. Nineteen percent say no war at all. And just 33 percent of the people surveyed said they would support this war if Iraq destroys those short-range missiles the U.N. inspectors want destroyed. So at the precise moment when the Bush administration is lobbying hard for a Security Council resolution, and Hans Blix is preparing what was expected to be a pessimistic report on Iraqi cooperation, Iraq begins showing signs of cooperating. Here, again, CNN's Richard Roth.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROTH (voice-over): Iraq says it accepts the U.N.'s demand to destroy the banned missiles that fly too far in violation of Security Council law. Baghdad faced a Saturday deadline to begin dismantling the Al Samoud II missiles. However, in dealing with the U.N., yes can mean maybe. While accepting in principle the U.N. edict, in the same letter, Baghdad calls the request unfair and says it does not know how to destroy the missiles.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: This is exactly what's been going on for years. They refuse to cooperate, don't cooperate, drag it out, wait till someone finally nails them with one little piece of the whole puzzle.

ROTH: Chief U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix ordered the missile destruction. The outcome will be added to his latest report on Iraq's cooperation. But even if Iraq gets rid of missiles, in a draft version of the report obtained by CNN, Blix says over the last three months, the results in terms of disarmament, have been very limited so far. Blix also says it is hard to understand why a number of the measures which are now being taken could not have been initiated earlier.

The Security Council receives the report Friday. And it will add even more fuel to a now hotly divided international panel. After what was described as an intense closed-door meeting, the Council was openly split over a new resolution proposed by the U.S., U.K. and Spain, a virtual authorization for war. Breaking with diplomatic protocol, one of the uncommitted countries on the Council, Chile, pointed fingers at both the U.S. camp and the European Russian side.

JUAN GABRIEL VALDES, CHILEAN AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: This divided Council is, in fact, throwing the decision on the shoulders of the elected members, while the permanent members stick to their positions without making efforts to approximate their views.

ROTH: It was the first meeting for the Council as a whole on the resolution. Several diplomats said no nations buzzed in an effort to close gaps.

JEREMY GREENSTOCK, BRITISH AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: There is no future in the inspectors unless they have the cooperation of Iraq.

JEAN-MARC DE LA SABLIERE, FRENCH AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: That in the Council, the majority of the members think that the time has now come to decide to go to war.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROTH: The British ambassador dismissed the rebellion among the swing votes. He said there are conversations going on between governments and capitals around the world that delegates here are not aware of. There was one bid to move ahead. The German ambassador, outgoing president of the Council, gave the five permanent members who are quarreling a pair of binoculars as a going away gift to look forward. The Russian ambassador, Aaron, said, "We are now all inspectors" -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, in many ways, I think the Chilean ambassador hit on an interesting point today. Because, the way I heard it, he was saying, you big countries, you powerful countries, get together and find a deal you can all agree on. Is that possible?

ROTH: That's possible still. There is still time. Canada has a compromise bid, which both sides also dismissed. But, again, the U.S. is ready to go it alone. But what was interesting, the atmosphere was really bitter today. You just don't see it that often.

Maybe there are going to be three sides to this quarrel if the uncommitted six hold in the middle. It will be very interesting to watch over the next week.

BROWN: Richard, thank you. Richard Roth at the U.N., which may be one of the most interesting places on the planet these days.

On to the military side of things. Today, the writers and producers on our staff got a memo with a list of cliches to avoid: tightening the screws, ratcheting up the pressure, cocking the trigger, that sort of thing. Here is the problem: they all fit the picture today.

Here is CNN's Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over): Deployment orders have been signed for B- 2 Stealth bombers to begin moving next week from Whiteman Air Force base in Missouri to a forward base in Diego Garcia. The British base in the Indian Ocean is roughly 3,200 miles from Baghdad, about a six- hour flight for the subsonic B-2s.

Pentagon sources say the arrival of the aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk in the Persian Gulf this week completes the planned deployment of five carriers called for in the U.S. war plan. Sources say, unlike in the 1991 Gulf War, two carriers will be based in the eastern Mediterranean Sea and will send their war planes over a northern route, avoiding Syrian and Jordanian air space by flying and refueling over Turkey. While three other carriers in the Persian Gulf will attack from the south, flying over Kuwait and Saudi air space.

Meanwhile, Iraqis are girding for war, digging wells, stacking sandbags and buying guns. Pentagon sources say the Iraqi military is digging trenches and filling them with oil. A tactic Saddam Hussein could use to wring Baghdad with smoke and fire. HUSSAIN AL-SHAHRISTANI, FMR. IRAQI NUCLEAR SCIENTIST: Whenever he decides the time is right, he will try to detonate it, so as to entrap the people inside the city and also to hinder the advancement of the troops to the city.

MCINTYRE: While the smoke could thwart laser-guided bombs, it would provide no defense against satellite-guided bombs, which are the weapons of choice for the Pentagon. The U.S. is also watching the movement of Iraq's first (UNINTELLIGIBLE) mechanized Republican Guard division south from their usual base in Mosul, to an area just of north of Tikrit, a power base for Saddam Hussein.

The troops could move farther south to defend Baghdad, but some Pentagon officials think Iraq may be hesitating to see if the U.S. seals a deal to base its troops in Turkey.

(on camera): The Pentagon is very frustrated that the Turkish parliament has put off a vote on the deployment until the weekend. That has left 40 U.S. military transport ships languishing in the Mediterranean Sea, just waiting to unload equipment. Pentagon officials say they can't wait much longer before they may have to give up on Turkey and send the troops and equipment to Kuwait instead. Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We've been dealing throughout the week with the question of what comes after a war should a war come. Among all the other uncertainties, this one seems to be the deepest. Because you have to reach back to post-war Japan or Germany for something on a similar scale. And even there, the differences probably outweigh the similarities.

But if the administration isn't have much to go by, it does have Kuwait and it does have Afghanistan. From the White House tonight, CNN's Chris Burns.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BURNS (voice-over): From a land where the U.S. toppled a terrorist-linked regime, Afghanistan's new leader comes to express his gratitude.

PRESIDENT HAMID KARZAI, AFGHANISTAN: I'm also here to ask you to do more for us in making the life of that Afghan people better, more stable, more peaceful.

BURNS: In other words, it's a costly job that's far from over, where true democracy is also a far away dream. Nevertheless, President Bush is pushing regime change and nation building in another land.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Rebuilding Iraq will require a sustained commitment from many nations, including our own. We will remain in Iraq as long as necessary, and not a day more. BURNS: Quite a change from his days on the campaign trail, blasting the Clinton-Gore administration for attempted nation building in Somalia and elsewhere.

BUSH: I worry about the fact I'm running against a man who uses the military and nation building in the same breath.

BURNS: The White House argues it won't be using the military for nation building.

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The military is there for the purpose of providing security.

BURNS: If President Bush sees the toppling of Saddam Hussein as having positive ripple effects in the Middle East, the last Gulf War has yet to produce a truly democratic Kuwait.

SHIBLEY TELHAMI, UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND: The public opinion, as U.N. reflected by some of the victories of Islamist groups even in Kuwait, which is friendly, has been less friendly to America than has been the government. And often, the U.S. has been very nervous.

BURNS: Kid gloves probably also required in Iraq, with autonomy-minded Kurds and a large Shiite population long frozen out of power.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BURNS: President Bush's picture of post-Saddam Middle East appears aimed at persuading the public opinion that it could be a long commitment to be involved in Iraq. And also aimed at persuading that perhaps the potential benefits from getting involved in Iraq could outweigh the potential risks and the costs -- Aaron.

BROWN: I'll try and keep the question very brief. Any reaction from the White House today on the missile destroying decision out of Iraq?

BURNS: President Bush saying that it is only the tip of the iceberg. That even if Saddam did comply with that, it is not nearly enough. That there must be total and complete disarmament of weapons of mass destruction. And he says the time is running out to do that.

BROWN: Out of the cold, Chris. Thank you, Chris Burns, at the White House tonight.

A few more items caught our eye from the polling we mentioned at the top of the program. These dealing with terrorism. The question: "Is your family ready to deal with a terrorist attack?" Forty-three percent said yes; 55 percent said no.

"Does your family have a safe room," we asked. Thirty-eight percent of the people surveyed said yes they did; 61 percent said no. "Are you paying more or less or the same amount of attention to government terrorist alerts than you did a year ago?" A bare majority say they pay more attention, 51 percent; 34 percent say the same amount. And 14 percent say they pay less attention.

And, on that note today, the government announced that the alert level, which had been orange for the last several weeks, is back down again to yellow. Ahead on NEWSNIGHT: the World Trade Center attack. Using DNA to identify the remains of the hijackers.

And later tonight, we'll talk with NASA chief Sean O'Keefe about the investigation into the shuttle accident. Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Occasionally, you see a number reported on the number of people killed on 9/11. And almost always, we'll get an angry response from a viewer, "It's 19 too many," that viewer will say. "The hijackers ought not be included." And they're right, of course.

It would be a terrible injustice to blur the line between killer and victim. Some of the families are trying to prevent just that kind of injustice. A final indignity for their loved ones. Only here, the blurring involves something more tangible and a lot more emotional than just the list of names. Reporting for us, CNN's Jamie Colby.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COLBY (voice-over): When families of 9/11 World Trade Center victims learned the unidentified remains of their loved ones would be included in a planned memorial, they feared those remains could end up alongside remains of the hijackers who killed them. A sentiment echoed by New York Governor George Pataki.

GOV. GEORGE PATAKI (R), NEW YORK: Well, I think it's important that the remains that are relocated to ground zero are the remains of the heroes who died and not of those evil murderers. And I'm pleased that the medical examiner has been able to identify some of their remains so they can go rot in hell.

COLBY: Several weeks ago, the FBI turned over DNA profiles of the 10 World Trade Center hijackers at the request of New York City's medical examiner, who has made two positive I.D.s. Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, a forensic scientist, says that match provides physical proof the suspected terrorists were at the scene of the crime.

DR. LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: This is actually the first confirmation that these individuals were on these planes.

COLBY: Law enforcement sources confirm those profiles were created from samples obtained at locations the terrorists frequented.

KOBILINSKY: Now we have their genetics and we can actually use this information to follow them. Where have they been in the past? Perhaps, we can hook them up to other individuals.

COLBY: Without compromising the integrity of those who died and are never identified. MONICA IKEN, HUSBAND DIED IN WTC ATTACK: My concerns are the memorial. I -- you know, I have to worry about my husband's final resting place. And, to me, making sure that we have a beautiful place to go in the future.

COLBY (on camera): The medical examiner is still trying to identify the remaining eight hijackers. Meanwhile, close to half of the nearly 2,800 victims of the World Trade Center attacks have not yet been positively identified. Jamie Colby, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A few stories from around the country tonight, beginning with the Rhode Island fire. A week ago now, perhaps the first thing we've had to report on that that we could possibly describe as good news. Rhode Island's governor announced today that the number of dead has been lowered. Barely, but lowered from 97 to 96. Apparently, there was one missing person report included, someone they don't believe was a victim in that fire a week ago tonight.

On to accusations of sexual assault within the Air Force Academy. Air Force Secretary James Roach said today, "We've got to make sure if a female cadet comes forward, it's not open season on their life." Twenty current and former female cadets at the Air Force Academy have said they were disciplined after coming forward with a complaint.

And they are mesmerizing to watch, and authorities from Los Angeles say that's part of the problem. Police are urging news stations to cut down on live coverage of car chases. Will life in L.A. ever be the same? They say that some of the bad guys are just looking for attention.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, the investigation into the shuttle accident. We'll talk with the NASA administrator, Sean O'Keefe, who testified today before Congress. From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Latest now on the Shuttle Columbia disaster. The head of NASA, Sean O'Keefe, was on Capitol Hill today, where legislators put a lot of focus on e-mails that came to light yesterday. They showed there was a fierce debate among engineers, though not at the highest levels, on whether damage to the shuttle during liftoff could prove disastrous during reentry.

A lot of questions surrounding the debate. How was it handled? Who should have known about it? Could anything have been done to save the shuttle? We put some of those questions to Mr. O'Keefe ourselves earlier tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: I want to talk broadly about where the investigation is in a minute. But I think people who watched us last night or read the morning papers today are interested in these e-mails that were, at least, troubling and, clearly, some of the engineers were troubled by them. Are you confident that the information flow that NASA had in place worked?

SEAN O'KEEFE, NASA ADMINISTRATOR: I mean, it is clear evidence that there was a very spirited discussion, as there is in every one of these scenarios, of trying to deal with what could happen, what might happen, working through all the what ifs in order to determine what could be done if it was determined to be a safety of flight issue. And at the end of that whole dialogue, after several days of working that through, all of the engineers and technical folks at the appropriate levels here made the determination that, based on the preponderance of evidence, this was not a safety of flight consideration.

BROWN: Do you know now, in fact, how high up the chain of command those e-mails that we looked at went?

O'KEEFE: Yes. It appears to have certainly been dealt with as part of the mission operation directorate effort, which is exactly the level that typically issues are always vetted and sorted out. There are certainly indications from all of the traffic that was raised at a variety of different levels throughout the shuttle program, as well, and at certain senior levels within various centers of the NASA family as well.

So working through this, it appears as though there was lots of dialogue, lots of exchange. There were folks in varying levels of the organization who were communicating directly with each other. And, again, that's the kind of dialogue and exchange that we see and want to encourage each and every time.

BROWN: So just trying to sort through a lot of stuff now, and I want to move on here, if I can.

O'KEEFE: Yes, sir.

BROWN: You are confident that people who needed -- who were capable of making decisions, or at least encouraging that decisions be made -- it's a complicated bureaucracy that is involved here, but that the information flow system worked? You're confident of that?

O'KEEFE: It appears so. But, again, you know, the examination that the Columbia accident investigation board is looking at here is not only what caused the accident -- we're hopeful that they come back with a definitive commentary on what they believe was the cause or probable cause of this terrible tragedy -- but also looking at the systemic and the management kinds of issues. Were the judgments made at the right levels and so forth?

And I'm going to be guided by their findings. Because they're far enough removed from this to be able to give us a solid independent judgment at that point. Based on the evidence we've seen, it looks like there was a spirited exchange between lots of levels and lots of technical issues being -- going on that was not based on some hierarchy issue.

It was all within varying levels throughout the organization and that's heartening. Again, I need to be guided by that independent look.

BROWN: Let me try and go two for one here, if I can. Are you confident that the board will come to a conclusion? That they'll understand what went wrong? And do you have any sense, is it possible to have any sense of when the shuttle will fly again?

O'KEEFE: Well, the confidence is generated by the commentary from Admiral Gayman (ph), the chairman of that board, as well as his board members who have offered us how they think they're working through this in a very disciplined manner. They've narrowed it down to a select number of issues after examining the faulty analysis they have been engaged in. And the pace of the investigation is picking up.

So it appears as though there is a likelihood, and they've offered their public statements in their press conferences, is that they feel like they're starting to narrow in on a number of areas. Having said that, you know, it's impossible to predict when and how, or what the findings will be. And certainly we'll learn that when they're concluded, and I don't want to rush that, or encourage them to rush any judgment.

In terms of how long will it take before we get back to flight, again, that's a real tough one, because if their recommendations -- and among these board members, they have over 50 accidents that they have investigated in the course of their respective professional careers -- and they also know that during the course of findings, what we really need to look at are the kinds of things that would inform decision-making about returning to operations.

And if committed to that publicly, they've said that in their press conferences that I've heard. And so, as a consequence, we're looking forward to whatever guidance they can give us, whenever they can give it to us. And we'll be positioned to make the recommendation changes and corrections, whatever they may be, in an effort to try to expeditiously get back to safe flight. But only if we can guarantee and satisfy ourselves, and in fact if there's a way to get back to operational safe flight.

BROWN: The tragedy touched all of us. It obviously acutely touched you and the people you work with. We appreciate your time tonight. I know it's been a long day for you. Thank you.

O'KEEFE: No, thank you, Aaron. It's a pleasure to be with you.

BROWN: Sean O'Keefe, the NASA administrator.

Still to come on NEWSNIGHT: The debate over malpractice, it's on Capitol Hill now. Just what does a family serve when medical mistakes take a life?

And "Segment Seven" tonight: a loving farewell to Mr. Rogers. Jeff Greenfield joins us for that.

This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And next on NEWSNIGHT: the cost of medical mistakes and who should pay and how much.

A short break and we're right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: I laugh at those sometimes.

Lawyers have a saying: Hard cases make bad laws. And on the question of medical malpractice, there are plenty of hard cases wherever you look. There is a tendency with this issue, as there is with so many of issues these days, to reduce it to something so simple as black and white. We submit, it is not that simple.

There are, in fact, trivial claims. There are also horrible mistakes and gross negligence. And the question is, what system should be in place to discourage the first, while making sure the victims of the latter are fairly served? Today in the House, hearings were held on a bill to cap the amount of money malpractice victims could receive for pain and suffering.

Here's CNN's Jonathan Karl.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As most of the country watched the heart-wrenching story of Jesica Santillan unfold as she lost her life following a botched transplant operation, Democrats saw an opportunity.

SEN. RICHARD DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: I think this is going to end up being the centerpiece for the debate on medical malpractice, because you can't think of a more compelling case.

KARL: Democrats hope Jesica's story will help them defeat a Republican plan to limit medical malpractice lawsuits, a major priority outlined in the president's State of the Union address.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No one has ever been healed by a frivolous lawsuit. I urge the Congress to pass medical liability reform.

KARL (on camera): The Republican plan would still allow people to sue for unlimited economic damages, such as loss of income, but it would limit pain-and-suffering awards to $250,000 and put a similar cap on punitive damages.

(voice-over): The Santillan family's lawyer is already lobbying Congress to oppose the president's plan.

KURT DIXON, ATTORNEY FOR SANTILLAN FAMILY: I look forward to telling Congress how wrong it would be to pass this litigation, which places the interests of the insurance industry above the interests of families like Jesica's. KARL: At a hearing today, Democrats introduced Heather Lewinsky, whose face was disfigured after a botched operation. They say she is another example of the kind of victim who would be hurt by malpractice reform.

HEATHER LEWINSKY, MALPRACTICE VICTIM: I took the bandage off my face and looked in the mirror and I just cried. I could not believe what he had done to my face.

KARL: Lewinsky, however, has already sued and says she received an award considerably higher than the Republican plan would allow. Republicans say they would not put a limit on damages in cases of gross negligence.

Doctors around the country have staged a series of protests against what they call out-of-control malpractice lawsuits that have driven up insurance premiums and forced some doctors out of work.

SEN. JUDD GREGG (R), NEW HAMPSHIRE: People in trauma situations who are hurt in car accidents aren't going to have a doctor in the emergency room. Women who have serious complications in their pregnancy aren't going to be able to see a doctor. Their OB/GYN doctor will have left the practice.

KARL: Most doctors agree with that assessment. But malpractice reform will be a tough political sell on Capitol Hill, one made even tougher after the traffic and high-profile medical blunder that killed Jesica Santillan.

Jonathan Karl, Capitol Hill.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: I'm joined tonight from Washington by Dr. Donald Palmisano, the president-elect of the American Medical Association; and, in San Francisco, Mary Alexander, who is the president of the Association of Trial Lawyers.

Good to have you both with us.

DR. DONALD PALMISANO, PRESIDENT-ELECT, AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION: Thank you.

MARY ALEXANDER, PRESIDENT, ASSOCIATION OF TRIAL LAWYERS: Nice to be with you.

Doc, let's start with you.

Jesica's case have anything to do with medical malpractice reform?

PALMISANO: Well, it's a tragic case. And the American Medical Association expresses its heartfelt sympathy to the family of Jesica.

And we also express our sympathy to the wonderful doctors and the hospital, with the wonderful reputation that they have. This is a system problem. And what we need to do is to have a system that allows errors to be identified before they harm patients. And we need a system that makes sure that doctors are there when patients need them in their hour of need, women who are about to have a baby, someone in an auto accident.

BROWN: Doctor, let me just try the question again, if I can, because this case comes at a very important time for the AMA and for proponents of reform. Does this case have a bearing on the debate or does it not?

PALMISANO: Well, I think it's a very important case. And the current system did not prevent this error from occurring.

What we need is a system where we can have experts look at everything that happens in a facility, give feedback to the facility, and disseminate that information, lessons learned, to everyone in America, every institution. The current system doesn't allow that. And we're for patient safety. We're for the reporting bills that would allow voluntary confidential reporting, review by experts, akin to the aviation safety reporting system.

BROWN: Let me go to Ms. Alexander for a second.

Obviously, you see the Jesica case differently. And let me turn the question around. Do you actually believe that these pain-and- suffering awards, which, do, in fact, run into the many, many millions of dollars sometimes, punitive damages, actually make medical care any better?

ALEXANDER: Jesica is a powerful symbol of why the proposed $250,000 arbitrary cap, a one-size-fits-all cap, simply is wrong and does not compensate the people in our society that are most seriously injured by medical malpractice, the children, women, the elderly, those who are least able to absorb this loss.

And what the AMA and the insurance companies want to do is to put this arbitrary cap on people like Jesica, people like Linda McDougal, who had a double-mastectomy because the doctors got her pathology slides messed up and she didn't have cancer. Caps don't work. And we've proven that in California. And this law that they're trying to take from here in California and give to the rest of the country has been shown not to work.

BROWN: Ms. Alexander...

ALEXANDER: In 1975...

BROWN: I'm sorry. Let me -- this apparently is my day to ask the same question twice. Let me try it with you again.

Do you actually believe that these multimillion-dollar punitive- damages pain-and-suffering awards make medical care any better?

ALEXANDER: Well, there's pain and suffering, which is what people like Jesica's family are compensated for the loss of their child. And that's what they're talking about putting a $250,000 arbitrary cap.

And then there's punitive damages, which is a separate issue, which is to punish. And, yes, I think that there are -- these awards hold doctors and insurance companies accountable when there are terrible wrongs and that they need to make sure -- we need to make sure that people who are seriously injured are taken care of.

BROWN: Doctor, it seems to me, already, there is a slight weakening in the mood on the Hill that may or may not be related to Jesica's case. And that is this notion of a cap, except when the negligence is gross. Where is the AMA on that?

PALMISANO: Well, the American Medical Association wants a proven treatment.

The California cap does work. And there are other states that are considered stable and they have caps that have been very effective. And so the American Medical Association says, we ought to use a proven treatment, rather than an experimental treatment, because we're worried about the rest of the population. We're worried about those women in Philadelphia. We're worried about the women in South Florida who won't be able to find a doctor when the baby is coming. We're worried about the people who are in accidents.

So we think this is a very important case. It's a tragic case, but it underscores the need to change the system. Even the Institute of Medicine said we need to look at a systems approach. We're in a shame-and-blame environment right now. These doctors did not want to hurt Jesica. They have perfected their skills and a tragic error occurred. We need to fix the error.

BROWN: Doctor -- would I be -- I'm sorry.

PALMISANO: Yes, sir.

BROWN: Would I be wrong in saying that you do not support the notion of a separate area of unlimited damages in cases where gross negligence is proven?

PALMISANO: Well, Aaron, it depends on the definition. Of course, words mean something, so we have to look at the wording, what is meant.

If there is an intentional act, reckless disregard, that's one thing. But in a true negligence action, it's an unintentional act -- someone falls below the standard care and that directly causes harm to the individual -- we believe that the California cap -- and the evidence shows the rates there for an obstetrician would be $57,000 to $58,000 -- compared to south Florida -- this is Los Angeles compared to Miami -- it will be $210,000 this year.

BROWN: Both of you, thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: I'm sorry. Thank you both. This is a complicated piece of business. The debate is just starting. And we'll come back again.

PALMISANO: Thank you, Aaron.

BROWN: We'll bring you both back and do it again.

PALMISANO: Thank you very much.

BROWN: Thank you very much.

ALEXANDER: Thank you very much.

PALMISANO: A privilege to be here.

BROWN: Thank you.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT -- that was work tonight -- ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll check the morning papers.

Short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And when we come back, morning papers -- lots of cool papers today.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A few stories from around the world here quickly to get in: Three astronauts aboard the International Space Station will be replaced by a new crew in late April or early May. They'll get there by Russian spacecraft, not the shuttle. Atlantis the shuttle was originally supposed to pick up the crew, but, of course, all shuttles scrapped for a while because of the Columbia disaster.

A scare this morning for an Air France Concorde flight, though no one knew it until it landed. The Concorde, 47 people on board, lost parts of the rudder during a flight from Paris to New York. The crew did not realize the plan had been damaged until after it landed safely.

Some controversy in Australia after leaders of the Victoria state legislature barred a member from breast-feeding her baby in the parliamentary chamber. There is no rule against breast-feeding, but there is a rule against bringing in people who haven't been elected. My goodness. Legislative leaders insist the baby was not elected.

Morning papers, OK? Lots of sort of interesting things.

I have just fallen in love with "The Detroit Free Press." They're doing a terrific job, a lot of good local stories in "The Free Press," a GM story and the like. But they've done a terrific job at humanizing and personalizing the war. This is the story -- or the possibility of a war -- the story of a young man who decided to join the Army and was sworn in, I gather, yesterday and was shipped off to Fort Benning today or last night.

"Chicago Sun-Times": Mostly gloomy is the weather. Here's the other end. This is a World War II vet who, for 50 years, has been trying to get his medals, the medals that he earned and hasn't got them. And they're running with that story on the front page. And Mr. Rogers is on the front page, too. He's on the front page of lots of papers.

For "The Miami Herald," I hadn't seen this story, but this is a really good example of newspapers serving their community again: "Greenspan Urges Curb on Social Security." The head of the Federal Reserve was up on the Hill talking about the need to pay seniors less. And in a community like Miami, with lots of seniors, that would sell some newspapers. And it should. It's a good story.

Show me the terror dome thing. You got that picture ready? We came across this picture today. You may see this in your newspaper tomorrow. Some people may buy these things, right. They have their own air-filtration system. I get it. You put them in your backyard. And in case your neighborhood gets hit by a terrorist attack or a chemical attack, you would go hang out in there. It's kind of an above-ground version of the fallout shelters. If you're old enough, you remember those things.

How we doing on time? Quickly, then.

Here's how a couple of papers played the Security Council story today. "San Francisco Chronicle": "Bitter Split in Security Council Over Iraq." "The Times of London": "Inspectors Give U.S. and Britain New War Boost."

And I want to get two more in: "Key States Bow to War Pressure." That is how "The Guardian" played it.

This is my favorite. What did I do with it? Oh, Aaron. Here we go. This is the Pittsburgh paper, OK? And this is where Mr. Rogers, Fred Rogers, was from. And that's their front page today. Is that a great front page or what? "Farewell, Neighbor" -- "The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette." Nicely done. And thanks for getting us the paper.

And we'll take our own look at Mr. Rogers -- Jeff Greenfield will -- after a short break.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Fred Rogers was 74 when he died today.

Perhaps the best tribute to Mr. Rogers we found was found on the Web site at his production company. It comes not in a list of accomplishments, though the accomplishments were many, but in some words of advice for parents on helping children deal with Mr. Rogers' death: "Listen to your children. It's OK to say, 'I don't know.' Happy times and sad times are a part of everyone's life. It's OK to cry," some gentle advice on the passing today of a gentle man. Here's CNN's Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): Fred Rogers, Mr. Rogers to you and me, has been walking through the same door for more than 30 years.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "MISTER ROGERS' NEIGHBORHOOD")

FRED ROGERS, HOST (singing): It's a beautiful day in this neighborhood, a beautiful day for a neighbor. Would you be mine? Could you be mine?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GREENFIELD: Walking into his living room and ours, inviting our children to his neighborhood and to his land of make-believe.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "MISTER ROGERS' NEIGHBORHOOD")

ROGERS (singing): Could you be mine?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROGERS: The whole idea is to look at the television camera and present as much love as you possibly could.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stand by for rehearsal, please.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Action.

GREENFIELD: If it all seemed a bit old-fashioned in this era of fast-paced cartoons and quick edits and product tie-ins, that's because Mr. Rogers kept some old-fashioned notions about television throughout his life and work, notions you don't hear much these days.

ROGERS: I believe that those of us who are the producers and purveyors of television, I believe that we are the servants of this nation.

GREENFIELD: Fred Rogers didn't plan on a career in television. He was a music major at Rollins College. He wanted to be a composer. But there was something about television, then in its earliest years, something that interested and annoyed him at the same time.

ROGERS: I got into television because I hated it so.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE CHILDREN'S CORNER")

ANNOUNCER: "The Children's Corner."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GREENFIELD: He began by writing and producing a program called "The Children's Corner." Then, after a short stint on Canadian television, "Mister Rogers' Neighborhood" was born. That was back in 1968, making it PBS' longest-running show.

ROGERS: What a fine boy you are.

GREENFIELD: Making him a star to the under-6 set and their parents. It was a golden opportunity to cash in, an opportunity he never took.

ROGERS: I never had much of a desire for a fancy lifestyle. And I never needed a lot of fancy things.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "MISTER ROGERS' NEIGHBORHOOD")

DAVID NEWELL, ACTOR/P.R. DIRECTOR: I've just completed working on something.

ROGERS: What is it?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GREENFIELD: Some of the characters on his last shows, like Mr. McFeely, were original. So were some of the sweaters, which were all Christmas gifts knitted by his late mother.

ROGERS: My mother made a sweater a month for as many years as I knew her. And every Christmas, she would give this extended family of ours a sweater.

GREENFIELD: But if life inside the neighborhood remained something of a time capsule, life outside the neighborhood changed dramatically from the '60s to the millennium. But for Fred Rogers, it always came back to the children, to what they needed.

ROGERS: We all long to be lovable and capable of loving. And whatever we can do, through the "Neighborhood" or anything else, to reflect that and to encourage people to be in touch with that, then I think that's our ministry.

GREENFIELD: Mr. Rogers' demeanor often made him a target for parody. Surely, no one could really be that innocent, that gentle. But, for years, Fred Rogers was one of the most requested speakers at college commencements, suggesting that, long after his audience had left childhood behind, they found themselves hungry for another visit to his neighborhood.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Many thanks to PBS for helping us with some pictures in that.

Many thanks to you for joining us tonight. We're back here tomorrow, 10:00 Eastern time. We hope you'll join us as well for Friday's NEWSNIGHT.

Until then, good night for all of us. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





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