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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Will Iraq Start to Destroy its Missiles by Tomorrow's Deadline?; Pentagon Says it Will Have Troops in Northern Iraq One Way or Another
Aired February 28, 2003 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening again, everyone. The president's spokesman was asked what his reaction was to a vote by the AFLCIO to oppose the president's policy on Iraq. His reaction suggests we are wading further into the waters of turning this question of war into a matter of pure politics.
Said Ari Fleischer: The vote shows that some of the AFLCIO members are becoming "attachments to the Democratic Committee and it's liberal wing." We're not exactly sure what Mr. Fleisher would say about one of our guests tonight, Republican Senator Chuck Hagel, for he, too, has questions about the president's position on Iraq. But we will assume it will not be to call him an attachment of the Democratic National Committee or a liberal.
The other side in this debate hasn't exactly got clean hands either. To us, it seems many on the anti-war side make arguments that have less to do with Iraq and Saddam and a government that, by any definition, is brutal, and more to do with whether President Bush is owned by the oil industry. Many on that side seem either unwilling or incapable of believing that there are real and serious arguments in support of removing Saddam, should he fail to give up his weapons of mass destruction. In the late '90s, we'd remind them that President Clinton used arguments hardly different from President Bush in explaining why the country and the international community needed to rid Saddam of those weapons.
The point here is simple. This is serious stuff. Lives are at stake; thousands of them, Americans and others. The country is entitled to a serious debate, conducted by serious people in a serious manner. We wish we heard more of that on all sides these days.
We begin tonight with the intense bargaining that's going on at the U.N. over Iraq. Michael Okwu is following that tonight. Michael, start us off with a headline.
MICHAEL OKWU, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Iraq has agreed in principle to destroy a major missile program. Now, whether or not they follow through on that, could very well go a long way in shaping a Security Council debate on war and peace -- Aaron.
BROWN: Michael, thank you. Back to you at the top tonight.
And one thorny question this week, assuming there is a war, how many troops would it take to keep the peace? Jamie McIntyre has been looking into that debate going on at the Pentagon. Jamie, a headline.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, two headlines, really. On the question of how many troops and how much will it cost, something Congress really wants to know, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld keeps insisting it's not knowable. And on the subject of Turkey, which is dragging its feet on approving a U.S. troop deployment, the Pentagon says it's going to have troops in northern Iraq one way or another.
BROWN: Jamie, thank you.
A scandal involving the San Francisco Police Department, one that goes literally all the way to the top. Rusty Dornin on that tonight. So, Rusty, from San Francisco, a headline.
RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, it's rocked this city like an earthquake. Folks here are already referring to it as (UNINTELLIGIBLE) gate. We'll tell you about the fallout over a fight over fast food and how it may topple San Francisco's top cops.
BROWN: Rusty, thank you.
And a glimpse aboard the Shuttle Columbia not long before it broke apart. These are tough pictures. John Zarrella with more on that. John, a headline.
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN MIAMI BUREAU CHIEF: Aaron, about 250 tapes were on board the Shuttle Columbia. Apparently only one survived. It's of the last few mints of the shuttle's crew before it begins to break up -- Aaron.
BROWN: John, thank you. Back to you and the rest shortly.
Also coming up tonight, as we mentioned, we'll bring you a conversation we had this afternoon with Nebraska Senator Chuck Hagel. A Republican deeply concerned about going it alone or nearly alone in terms of Iraq.
Also, the latest on the rape scandal at the U.S. Air Force Academy in Colorado. The Air Force secretary vowing to clean up the academy. We'll talk to a reporter in Denver who has been breaking this story from the beginning and continues to do so.
And the debate over war in Iraq and the town the bomb built. Candy Crowley visits Los Alamos. It's our "Segment 7" report tonight. A busy night. All of that to come.
We begin with Iraq and something Senator Hagel said that strikes us as spot on tonight. We asked for his general take on things and he said uncertainty hangs over the country. Does Iraq really intend to start destroying its missiles by tomorrow's deadline? Will it stymie the American efforts at the Security Council?
Does Russia really intend to use its veto? Will Turkey come through? A lot of things are about to break but haven't quite yet. Until they do, we think the senator has got it about right: Nothing is certain at the end of a long week. Nothing, that is, except uncertainty.
We begin at the United Nations and CNN's Michael Okwu.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
OKWU (voice-over): If the Iraqis begin the process of destroying their Al Samoud missiles on Saturday, as they have promised, it will be an important step according to Hans Blix.
HANS BLIX, CHIEF U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: There are very many of these missiles, a lot of items that pertain to them and which we have enumerated in our letter which is to be destroyed. So it is a very significant piece of disarmament.
OKWU: Although an interim report from Blix prepared before Iraq's decision was handed to Security Council diplomats Friday, which called Iraq's disarmament efforts very limited so far, some members of the Council hailed the Iraqi move.
DOMINIQUE DE VILLEPIN, FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): France welcomes Iraq's decision concerning the destruction of the Al Samoud missiles. This decision is in agreement with the demands from the U.N. inspectors. The destruction must start without delay.
OKWU: And from the Russians today, a threat to block the U.S.- backed resolution authorizing war.
IGOR IVANOV, RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): Russia has the right of veto. If the interest of international stability demands it, Russia, of course, will exercise its right.
OKWU: Talk that may be deepening an already fractured Security Council. Here's how the votes look today. The U.S. and Great Britain would vote yes, along with Bulgaria and Spain, a co-sponsor. France, Russia, China, Germany and Syria are firmly against it. The key swing vote wait in the balance: Chile, Angola, Cameroon, Guinea, Mexico and Pakistan.
MUNIR AKRAM, PAKISTANI AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: If it's going to be vetoed by some not permanent member, then our position, whether we take it with whatever pain and suffering we have, whatever position we take will be meaningless.
STEFAN TAFROV, BULGARIAN AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: More pressure is need. And as long as the Security Council is divided, that pressure is not there. We won't be there. That's why we want a united council.
ISMAEL GASPAR MARTINS, ANGOLIAN AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: It has been possible to do it in the past. Why not in the future? On key questions, we can speak with one voice on key questions.
OKWU: Iraqi Ambassador Mohammed Aldouri.
MOHAMMED ALDOUR, IRAQI AMBASSADOR: They don't like to have war. This is a huge responsibility for everybody. So the split between them is split between war (ph) and level of peace.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
OKWU: The whole missile issue is something of a wild card, Aaron. If in fact the Iraqis follow through and start destroying its missile program, then the U.S. would be in a much more tough position to make its case among the Security Council members. Of course, U.S. officials all along will say that this is only one issue and, in fact, the Iraqis have failed to meet a whole host of obligations dating back to the early 1990s -- Aaron.
BROWN: I want to go back to some of the non-allied, the non- permanent members. Because their comments almost sound anguished. They want a compromise. They want the big players, the permanent member, to come up with a deal. In the hallways, is there any talk that that's going to happen?
OKWU: Absolutely not, Aaron. You heard the Chilean ambassador yesterday very angry with the United States, with France, with some of the big powers on the Security Council. Clearly, they've been trying to woo these so-called minnow nations, and these minnow nations are getting angry about it. They want the United States, they want France, they want Great Britain to come together -- Aaron.
BROWN: Michael, thank you. Michael Okwu over at the U.N. tonight. If the stakes weren't so high, this would all be fascinating to watch unfold, but they are very high. Couldn't be higher.
More now on the arm-twisting and the effects of Iraq's latest move. In part, this is an expectations game. Is the destruction of the Iraq's short-range missiles a significant milestone or not? As Michael eluded to, in his report, some will see it one way. From the beginning, the administration, of course, has seen it differently. Has said so and did again today. From the State Department, here's CNN's Andrea Koppel.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Bush White House dismissed the notion Iraq's announcement it will destroy its Al Samoud 2 missiles undercuts the U.S. case.
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Total disarmament is total disarmament is total disarmament. It's not a piece of disarmament.
KOPPEL: In an interview with "USA Today," President Bush suggested he believes military force is the only option left. "My attitude about Saddam Hussein is that if he had any attention of disarming," President Bush said, "he would have disarmed. We will disarm him now."
As for threats by Russia's foreign minister to veto a second resolution, U.S. officials tell CNN they do not believe President Putin has made up his mind. RICHARD BOUCHER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: I'm just saying it ain't over until it's over. Don't count your chickens before they're hatched.
KOPPEL: Refusing to be deterred by Russia's shot across the bow, the State Department designated three Chechen rebel groups as terrorist organizations. The U.S. says their members were responsible for last October's hostage taking in a Moscow theater; a move the Kremlin has wanted for months.
High-level U.S. envoys are also lobbying worldwide. Assistant Secretary of State Christina Rocha, with the president of Pakistan, a non-permanent yet vital member of the Security Council. In Chile, White House envoy (UNINTELLIGIBLE) did the same.
(on camera): The U.S. goal: to secure the nine out of 15 votes necessary to pass a second resolution. The U.S. strategy, said one U.S. official, to go for the bandwagon effect and create enough momentum to put pressure on China, Russia, and especially France, not to use their veto. Andrea Koppel, CNN, at the State Department.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: That's the diplomacy. On now to the war plans, and there is plenty of murkiness there. Tonight, the number of troops needed to control a post-war Iraq is a very public bone of contention. A battle between the head of the Army and his civilian bosses. So is the price tag, and so, too, the effort to secure a northern route into Iraq through Turkey. So from the Pentagon tonight, CNN's Jamie McIntyre.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE (voice-over): Whether or not the Turkish parliament allows 62,000 U.S. troops into Turkey when it votes Saturday, the Pentagon says it's ready to execute the war plan.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: We will have U.S. forces in northern Iraq one way or the other.
MCINTYRE: With more than 200,000 U.S. troops in the region, the U.S. says it's ready to strike at any time. But if it waits to position troops in Turkey, that will still take several more weeks. As for how many U.S. troops stay in Iraq, the Pentagon continues to downplay the estimate of several hundred thousand offered by the Army chief of staff in congressional testimony this week.
PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY: The notion of hundreds of thousands of American troops is way off the mark.
MCINTYRE: Privately, Pentagon officials were fuming that General Eric Shinseki's comments fueled criticism the Pentagon was understating what it would take to occupy post-war Iraq. But publicly, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld insisted it was an honest difference of opinion.
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Well, first of all, people are entitled to their opinions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is General Shinseki in any trouble? You're his boss.
RUMSFELD: No. Come on. Absolutely not, no. What are you trying to do, stir up trouble?
MCINTYRE: General Shinseki is a short timer, due to retire this summer. His aides insist the general sticks by his estimate, and independent analysts say the number may depend on when and how you count the troops, which will peak right after the war and then gradually be drawn down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In that sense, it's possible that Rumsfeld and Shinseki are both right. That Shinseki will be right for the first year and that Rumsfeld will be right for years two, three and thereafter.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: Now much to the frustration of Congress, the Pentagon is refusing not only to estimate how many troops may have to stay in Iraq, but how much the war may cost. The estimates have been ranging between $60 billion and $90 billion, but Defense Secretary Rumsfeld keeps insisting it's not knowable.
I had an interesting exchange with him the other day, when he said it will produce a range that's not useful. I said, "Tell us the range and we'll decide if it's useful." And he said, "I have already decided, it's not useful." And Secretary Rumsfeld tends to have the last word in those conversations -- Aaron.
BROWN: Well, he does for now. One of the things that's interesting to me here is this is, in some sense, on both questions, an intramural struggle. You have the head of the Army and his civilian bosses. The discussion on how much the war cost really came out of the White House earlier in the week.
So somebody has been thinking about both of these questions. It's unusual for this administration not to be on the same page.
MCINTYRE: Well, a lot of this is, again, frustration from Congress. For instance, General Shinseki's comment came in response to Senator Levin. And as soon as he said it, the Pentagon began to downplay the numbers, saying it was way off the mark. But Senator Levin in an interview with CNN, for instance, said, well, he put a lot of stock in it because it was a top military guy's first instinct.
So he was sticking to it. And I think that's one of the things that's rubbed the Pentagon the wrong way, is that it has fueled some of the opponents of the Pentagon's policy on Capitol Hill, and this place is run by the civilians. And General Shinseki is supposed to stay in his lane.
BROWN: And just on the question of Turkey and how the troops would get in if the Turks do not go along, how do they get them in there? By carrier, by parachute? How do they do it?
MCINTYRE: Well, it's essentially -- they're going to take them around to Kuwait. In fact, they don't need to wait as long if they're not going to get there, because they have plenty of troops in Kuwait, and they'd simply have to go to the north from the south. So it's not as easy, but U.S. insists it can do it.
And one official here today said wouldn't it be a shame if, after all this negotiating, Turkey didn't benefit from this deal. Not just with the money, but also with having a real say in what happens in Iraq afterwards if they let this deal slip by.
BROWN: Jamie, thank you. Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. I almost said Jamie Pentagon. It must be Friday. Have a good weekend.
Ahead on NEWNIGHT: speaking out against the war with Iraq. We'll have our conversation with Republican Senator from Nebraska Chuck Hagel. He has some strong reservations.
And later, a major scandal in San Francisco, as the police chief and other top officers are indicted for covering up a beating by other officers. Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We mentioned Senator Chuck Hagel three times already in the program. We probably should formally introduce him now. The senator, to us, is one of the more interesting voices on the subject of Iraq. He's a Republican; he's from Nebraska.
Nebraska is intensely pragmatic, largely conservative. Home to the Strategic Air Command, comfortable with things military, but also deeply cautious about the use of such power. So it isn't surprising that the senator has been, at times, both a strong advocate of the use of force around the world, but also wary of squandering American troops or treasure or credibility. We spoke with Senator Hagel this afternoon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Senator, you said the other day in a speech, we are wrecking coalitions, relationships and alliances so we can get a two- week start on going to war alone. What are you concerned about here?
SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R), NEBRASKA: I'm concerned, Aaron, today with what I have been concerned about all along. It is not about Saddam Hussein being rehabilitated. It is not about whether we should or need to deal with him. Of course we need to deal with him. But it is about how we deal with him.
Bringing our allies along with us, working through the legitimacy of the United Nations. Because what ends in Baghdad is just the beginning of another chapter of our dealing with terrorism, proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. We, the United States, can't do this alone. There's going to be an extended commitment in the Middle East of resources, of prestige, of men, of treasure. This is going to be a long-term effort. We can't see, view or deal with Iraq in a vacuum.
BROWN: What do your constituents think?
HAGEL: Well, I hear from my constituents just like my colleagues hear from theirs. I think, Aaron, America is off balance. They're concerned. They are frightened.
Uncertainty hangs over our country. Not just the prospect of war, but certainly terrorism. Our economy cannot find an equilibrium and a balance. And because of all of this, we have a very concerned American public that is becoming frustrated with all of this. And I understand that. But they are on edge.
And what I have said, and I hear this back from many of my constituents, let's stay steady. Let's be wise in how we do this. Let's not get ourselves into something that we haven't thought through. Because there will be consequences if we go to war.
Now we know, I know, we all know that you can't predict the end of these kinds of things or totally the outcome. But that's the point of staying with our allies and working within the United Nations. Because there will be consequences if we go to war. And we want to have this done with our allies because there are many, many other dangerous places in the world, North Korea, Afghanistan, we're still at war, the Israeli-Palestinian issue, India, Pakistan, South America, that we can't deal with all of these alone. We need our allies.
BROWN: Let me try to get a couple more things done here. As I'm sure you know, there's fierce negotiations going on at the U.N. to try and get the votes out of the Security Council. Do you have any concern that, ultimately, countries are being promised so much, a trade deal here, a trade deal there, some loans here, some loans there, that the decision itself is not being made on the merits of the argument, but on all the perks of staying with the United States?
HAGEL: Well, I am concerned about that. And I think some of my colleagues are. I asked in an open hearing the Senate Foreign Relations Committee a couple weeks ago, would you present -- I said this to the undersecretary of state, the undersecretary of defense -- present this panel the names of the countries that are part of the so- called coalition of the willing and what they are going to contribute.
Well, I was told that they couldn't produce that in an open hearing, which I was quite astounded to hear that, since we brag about it all the time. And I still have not gotten a full complete list even in top secret surroundings of what our supposed allies, coalition of the willing, would do. Your point is exactly right.
Here we have Turkey, that we have been negotiating with, and as of this point they've still not accepted our deal. The Israelis are in town shopping for $12 billion of more funds. The Egyptians were here two weeks ago. The Jordanians have already been here and want more. Plus our allies in Eastern Europe are asking for deals. I don't think that's the kind of so-called coalition of the willing that you want to go to war with. This needs to include all of our people for all of the same reasons. The coalition should be based on the threats and the challenges of common interest.
Terrorism is not unique to America. Proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, that's not unique to America. It's a threat to all of us. And we need all of us together. Not buying our allies here, but all of us there for the right reasons and the same reasons.
BROWN: Senator, we always enjoy having you on the program. The issues are never easy. However, one of these days that will change. Thank you for your time.
HAGEL: Thank you, Aaron.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Senator Chuck Hagel. We talked to him earlier this afternoon.
A few more items now from around the world before we go to break, sharting in (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Egypt. Members of the Arab League meeting there this weekend to hammer out a unified position on Iraq, or at least to make an effort. No sign of agreement yet, and none is expected anytime soon.
To Karachi, Pakistan. Gunmen there opened fire on a U.S. consulate today. They came out af a park across the street and took aim at a guard house. Two Pakistani policemen died in the attack. Five other people were wounded. No Americans were hurt.
Police have one man in custody. They say he is from Afghanistan.
And Israel's prime minister, Ariel Sharon, began his second term today. He presented his new government to the Knesset and said no peace talks until the Palestinian Authority reforms and the violence stops.
Coming up tonight on NEWSNIGHT: a San Francisco scandal, as the police chief and other top officers are indicted for covering up a crime. That and more as we continue on Friday from New York. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: In San Francisco tonight, there's a police problem and no small problem at that. A grand jury has indicted the police chief and assistant chief. Others indicted as well, in a case that started with an alleged beating but turned, according to the grand jury, into something far different. Reporting for us, CNN's Rusty Dornin.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DORNIN (voice-over): November 20th, outside a San Francisco bar, Adam Snyder just got off work. He and his friend, James Santoro (ph), say they were then attacked by two men. Snyder says the men were trying to steal a bag of takeout food. Then a third drove up in a pickup and joined the brawl. Snyder called 911.
DISPATCHER: Why are you breathing so hard?
ADAM SNYDER: Because they just beat the hell out of me.
DISPATCHER: OK. Well do you need an ambulance?
SNYDER: No. I need some cops fast.
DORNIN: Within hours, police had three suspects, off duty San Francisco police officers. One, Alex Fagan, Jr., (ph), son of the assistant police chief. For months, the police department had been criticized for dragging its feet in the investigation and covering up evidence.
Then in mid January, a 27-year police veteran, Joe Dutto, who investigated the incident, was transferred to the vice squad. He says he was punished for pursuing the case too vigorously.
LT. JOE DUTTO, SAN FRANCISCO POLICE: I'm disappointed in things that others in our department have done. I think the whole picture has been lost here as to what our job is.
DORNIN: After hearing from 42 witnesses, a grand jury indicted the three off-duty police officers for assault and seven others for conspiracy, including the Police Chief Earl Sanders (ph), Assistant Police Chief Alex Fagan (ph), the father of one of the accused attackers, and a deputy police chief.
All but the police chief were booked, photographed and fingerprinted by Friday afternoon. An attorney for one of the police commanders charged with conspiracy says there is no evidence of wrongdoing.
BOB MOORE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It is unimaginable that this district attorney indicted the command staff, the chief of police, and indicted my client. Out of the question. It just doesn't support it.
DORNIN: Mayor Willie Brown appointed the police chief and has been critical of the district attorney's handling of the case. Brown, rarely at a lack for words, had few for reporters.
MAYOR WILLIE BROWN, SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA: I have no information, none whatsoever. The district attorney's office, nor has the grand jury supplied the major of this city with any information.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DORNIN: Well, Mayor Willie Brown had plenty of information tonight for an emergency meeting of the police commissioners. He pleaded with them not to suspend those top command officers that are charged with conspiracy. He says he believes that they will be found innocent. Meantime, there is a closed meeting going on right now, where they may decide on an acting police chief. And, Aaron, it's fair to say that this city has been in an uproar over this case. It's been on the back burner simmering. And nobody really thought that these indictments would be as far reaching as they are.
BROWN: All right, Rusty, conspiracy is the name of the crime. Do we have any details on what the chief and the deputy chief actually are alleged to have done?
DORNIN: Some of the allegations involve the night that the incident occurred, things like, when the suspects did come back to the scene, the victims were not asked to identify them. Their clothes were not checked for blood or anything like that because of this fight that had ensued.
The truck was not searched for the food, the takeout food that had been taken from the men, and also that the off-duty police officers were not tested for alcohol either. Those are some of the allegations.
BROWN: And do they allege that the chief was somehow responsible for that?
DORNIN: The chief came into power just about four months before this incident happened. He was appointed by Willie Brown.
We have mainly heard some other officers involved in the investigation, that they did not follow through with some thins. I have not heard the specific charges against the chief, other than he may have been aware of what was going on.
BROWN: Rusty, thank you -- Rusty Dornin, who's been working the story since it broke late this afternoon.
Still to come on NEWSNIGHT: the last minutes of the shuttle Columbia. We'll show you the videotape that survived the accident.
And, later, we'll talk with the reporter who broke the story of the Air Force Academy rape scandal.
Still a long way to go here on a Friday night. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: And next on NEWSNIGHT: the videotape of the last few minutes of the flight of the shuttle Columbia.
A short break first.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We all know the feeling you get when you're watching a sad movie and you already know how it's going to end. It's that feeling of dread in the pit of your stomach. You watch the characters go about their lives oblivious to their fate.
That's the feeling we had today, except it wasn't a movie. It was real. And the characters were not actors. They were astronauts aboard the shuttle Columbia in some of the final carefree moments of their lives.
Reporting for us, CNN's John Zarrella.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She comes to life.
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN MIAMI BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): The videotape begins with a shot of Commander Rick Husband in the background and pilot Willie McCool, closest to where the camera was mounted on the flight desk.
Husband and McCool can be heard going through standard pre- landing checklists.
RICK HUSBAND, COLUMBIA COMMANDER: Houston, Rick. We'll take another item 27, please. Oh, shoot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Looks good. Did we miss that?
HUSBAND: We're back on it. But I need to do an item 27.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, oh, oh.
ZARRELLA: The videotape is 13 minutes long. The recording begins at about 8:35 a.m. eastern time as the vehicle is over the Pacific Ocean.
The tape ends at 8:48 a.m., just as Colombia is reaching the west coast of the U.S.
From the emotions of the crew, there's no indication they knew anything was about to go wrong.
At one point mission specialist Laurel Clark takes the camera and begins videotaping.
Mission specialist Kalpana Chawla waves.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) I just turned to see what you have there.
ZARRELLA: The video shows only four of the seven astronauts, those seated on the flight deck area. The other three -- specialists Mike Anderson, Dave Brown and payload specialist Ilan Ramon -- were seated on the mid-deck.
As the tape progresses, the astronauts see the flash as a plasma, hot gases that form around the shuttle during the heat of re-entry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That might be some plasma now. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Think so.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. They're not firing right now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's hard to get, actually.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We see it out the front, also.
ZARRELLA: One theory is that minutes later, these gasses entered a breach in the shuttle's left wing and ultimately led to Columbia breaking apart.
(on camera): About four minutes after this tape ends is when flight controllers in Houston first noticed heat sensor readings going up in Columbia's left wing. NASA officials say there is nothing on this tape that will help them figure out what caused the Columbia accident.
John Zarrella, CNN, Miami.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Well, you couldn't have come up with a more fitting place for the Air Force secretary to speak last night. He talked to the National Character and Leadership Symposium at the Air Force Academy.
Lately, there have been grave questions about both character and leadership at the academy, accusations that some cadets, current and former, were sexually assaulted and then punished for coming forward. Secretary James Roche got a standing ovation at last night's event, vowing to make sure cadets can come forward without fear and promising to go after the offenders. As he put it, "We've got to get these bums out of here."
Meanwhile, the complaints keep coming, as reported today by John Ferrugia, of CNN affiliate KMGH in Denver, a former cadet named Sharon (ph) who says she was raped as a freshman at the academy in 1999. She didn't report it and left the academy soon after. She told academy officials five months later and this is what she said they said to her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They assumed things that hadn't happened. And so I went in and told them what actually happened and they told me I was a liar. And they told me that none of this happened, and I had actually made the whole thing up, and I just didn't want to be at the academy, and I was a terrible cadet, and I wasn't doing well, and so this was my excuse to leave.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The academy has refused to comment on Sharon's accusations.
John Ferrugia, the reporter, joins us again tonight from Denver. It's good to see you.
Just on this case, anything unique about this case as compared to the other 20 or so that you've been working with?
JOHN FERRUGIA, KMGH REPORTER: Well, Aaron, in this case, her mother is actually a lieutenant colonel in the Air Force and lives at the Air Force Academy. And her father is also in the Air Force as an enlisted man, a master sergeant.
And they came to us and basically told us that they couldn't get anything done. She's a senior officer in the Air Force. They couldn't get anything done. They got no satisfaction. And, in fact, she told us that the Offices of Special Investigations at the Air Force Academy told her, indeed, she was lying as well.
BROWN: I wanted just a couple background things for people who may not have been following this. First, when cadets talk about -- when these women talk about being punished, what is it that's happening to them?
FERRUGIA: Well, they get what are called hits or demerits. And they are punished generally for breaking cadet rules, things like drinking or underage drinking or fraternization with upperclassmen.
Those are the things that, when you break a cadet rule, you get what is called a tour. That is one hour of physical punishment. That could be running, marching, leaning against the wall, but an hour of punishment. And many of these are very serious infractions. And you can indeed get 10, 12, 15 hours of tours, or punishment, for each one of these infractions.
BROWN: So, you come in and you say, this happened to me and they say, were you drinking? And you say yes and then you're punished for the drinking? Is that essentially how it works?
FERRUGIA: Well, Aaron, there is a rule at the Air Force Academy that calls for amnesty. And it doesn't say it's absolute. It says you may get amnesty, but they want you to come forward and report a sexual assault. So you do report. And let's say it happened on a Saturday night.
And you come in and you say, well, I was sexually assaulted. Yes, there was alcohol and I was with an upperclassmen and maybe a couple of upperclassmen, whatever. And they say, OK, we'll give you amnesty for those things, because we want you to report that sexual assault. But then what they do is, they investigate the victim. They go out and they ask people, well, has this woman ever drunk on campus before? Has she ever had a drink? Has she fraternized before?
So, pretty soon, they build a case of infractions, saying, well, last Thursday, she did this and two weeks ago, she did that. They then bring her in and say, well, we're going to give you amnesty for Saturday, but we understand a week ago Thursday -- and we have witnesses -- that you were drinking then. Were you? Well, there's an honor code at the academy, which says, I will not lie, cheat or steal. Well, if she lies and says no, she's out. If she says yes, I was, she's then punished. So, they wouldn't have known about that had she not come in and report it.
BROWN: Do you have any sense -- now, you've been working this for a bit -- that, as it has come to light, that, in fact -- as opposed to in word -- that, in fact, the top brass either at the Pentagon or at the academy itself are actually serious about solving it?
FERRUGIA: I think the Air Force secretary is very serious about this. As you pointed out in the earlier clip there, he was -- he had some very strong words for the cadets at the Air Force Academy.
On Wednesday, we spoke with him. He not only called these people bums. He called them criminals. And he told them last night -- he told the Air Force cadets last night that this was just a fringe group, clearly not the majority of the men or women who are there. He talked about a fringe group.
But he said you can expect things are going to change and they are going to change across the board. That was interpreted as a big change coming in the administration, also, of the academy.
BROWN: The problem here I see, you're not talking about a group. You're talking about two, in a sense. You're talking about people, men, who allegedly commit these crimes, but you're also talking about the management, if you will, that places the victim -- or victimizes the victim, if you will. Both cultures have to change.
FERRUGIA: That's right.
And you said the key word there: culture. The culture of the Air Force Academy, according to the women we've been talking to, and even women who have been there and are now officers -- we've even talked to many who have called us, e-mailed us. And they talk about the culture where sexual assault is accepted. It's within the culture. It just happens there.
We've been told that, from the second or third week that women are there, they have upper-class trainers, juniors and seniors. Some of those are women. Women tell them and warn them, in the time you're here, this is going to happen to you. It's going to happen to many of you. Don't report it, because, if you do, your career is over.
BROWN: That's unbelievable. That's an unbelievable way to end this thing.
John, it's nice to see you again -- John Ferrugia in Denver, who has done terrific work on this over the weeks.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll check morning papers.
Segment seven tonight a little bit later: A town that owes its birth to war takes the question of war with Iraq very seriously. It's Friday night. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: And ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll check the morning papers.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: OK, here we go, morning papers from around the country and around the world. The Saturday papers could be a little thin, though, I got to tell you. Here we go.
Nothing thin about "The "San Francisco Chronicle" headline: "Indictments Jolt San Francisco Police." We reported this earlier.
I actually have to take my glasses off to do this bit now. I can't do it otherwise.
What we found interesting -- among the things we found interesting, according to "The Chronicle," two sources say the grand jury actually went farther, much farther than the district attorney had hoped, your runaway grand jury. Anyway, "The San Francisco Chronicle."
Look at this picture. This is "The Boston Herald." "Night From Hell" is the headline. They have some exclusive pictures of the nightclub fire up in Rhode Island, just across the way. And if the others follow through on that one, this is a heck of an edition of "The Boston Herald" for Saturday morning.
"The Detroit News and Free Press" -- they combine the papers on the weekend. I don't want to say it was a really slow news day. I don't have my glasses on. You still out there. "More Shoppers Find Self-Checkout Easy." We love these papers. It's a little slow.
All right, how are we doing on time? One minute. OK.
"The Weekend Australian" -- and they combine the two. I can never keep track what day it is in Australia. This helps me. It's March 1 and 2. "P.M." -- prime minister -- "Vetoes Maternity Leave Pay." That's the big news story, but the story people really care about -- come over a little bit to the side -- "Mast and Kiwi Hearts Broken in Two." It's the America's Cup, which, oddly, has no Americans in it. Anyway, the New Zealand team, they spent like $10 million on this boat. It goes nowhere.
Tony Blair, in "The Guardian," says, "History will be my judge." He's among the most interesting stories out there these days.
One picture to show you tonight, I think. This comes from Afghanistan.
Now I actually have to put my glasses on. You think this is easy, this job, don't you?
OK, could it really be that it's been a whole year since we last saw this activity? They call it goat-grabbing. And it's sort of like rodeo, Afghani-style. They get this dead goat and they move it around or soccer with the goat, however you want to do it. Anyway, people who don't think thins are better there, we've made the country safe for goat-grabbing. Got to do something.
Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT: segment seven. We'll take you to Los Alamos and the debate over the war with Iraq. Candy Crowley has that.
So that's the morning papers for the week.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Finally from us tonight: Wars are often waged in the name of peace. And that's part of what makes this debate so hard. Do you risk lives and sometimes take lives, even innocent lives, in hopes of saving many more innocent people down the road?
This is what many of us are grappling with these days as we think about a war with Iraq. Yet, for the people in one spot of the country, it's ambivalence that runs deep, to the very DNA of their city's history.
Here's CNN's Candy Crowley.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The street signs here speak history: Manhattan, Oppenheimer, Trinity. This is the town the bomb built.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three, two, one, now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CROWLEY: What better place to talk of war?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I spent most of my career here working on nuclear weapons, making the ground shake in Nevada, making the ground shake out here in Los Alamos. I don't apologize for that. But I think that gives me and you a special responsibility, because we know what those weapons can do.
CROWLEY: To be honest, when it all began, nobody envisioned this night, this overcapacity crowd listening as they offered a resolution to the Los Alamos County Council.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, therefore, be it resolved that the governing body of Los Alamos County hereby strongly advises against any preemptive strike or act of war against the people of Iraq without the United Nations' support.
CROWLEY: It all started as a conversation among the like-minded, Chuck, an environmental impact consultant. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can keep the inspectors in. We can put overwhelming force in there, not in a warlike manner, but in support of the inspectors.
CROWLEY: Chick, a retired lab scientist.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wish I had a nickel for everybody who said to me: I can't believe you're saying this. I thought I was crazy. I am against this. I don't think this is right. But I just thought I was crazy.
CROWLEY: And so it began.
CROWD (singing): Put your swords and guns away.
CROWLEY: The Los Alamos anti-war movement. Questioning the use of force is a time-honored Los Alamos tradition. J. Robert Oppenheimer, father of the atomic bomb, opposed development of the more powerful hydrogen bomb. Just because you build weapons doesn't mean you want them used. And just because you believe war may be necessary doesn't mean you don't welcome debate.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that's a good discussion. It helps us to put the morality of war in a good framework.
CROWLEY: Inside a building once used to house and feed Manhattan Project workers, three men who provide security to the lab, as it's known in Los Alamos, struggle to fit their positions into bumper-style language.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pro-war is certainly not my stance. No one hates war more than those of us who serve in the military and who ultimately are going to be the ones to fight it.
CROWLEY: They are all vets. All support the president.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What I worried about was a community sending one statement to those troops sitting over there, where I had sat, telling them, we don't support what you're doing. I thought it would be devastating to the morale.
CROWLEY: Still, Mike Wismer (ph), a county council member, thought Los Alamos needed to talk this out. And so they did. They talked with the certainly of youth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I cannot begin to understand why we should or ever have gone to war.
CROWLEY: They talked with the sadness of experience.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As a veteran, I'll tell you that I've faced battle and it's not pleasant. But I feel that war will protect my children and the future. I'm very emotional about this issue.
CROWLEY: They spoke in fear.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going to throw a brick right in a hornet's nest of Islamic fundamentalism and hatred.
CROWLEY: And they spoke in anger.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For all of those of you that are still trying to find reasons why we shouldn't go to this war, why we shouldn't prosecute Saddam Hussein as the war criminal and the murderer that he is, I stand outraged. That's all I have to say.
CROWLEY: Across the country, more than 100 local councils have approved anti-war resolutions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please call the roll.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ms. Elvis (ph)?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
CROWLEY: Los Alamos is not one of them.
Candy Crowley, CNN, Los Alamos, New Mexico.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: A longer version of that piece and much more is a part of special "CNN PRESENTS," "SHOWDOWN: IRAQ: ON THE BRINK." It airs Saturday and Sunday -- or, or Sunday, depending on your scheduling here -- 8:00 Eastern time, "SHOWDOWN: IRAQ," a special "CNN PRESENTS." Some nice things in there. You might want to make some time for that this weekend.
Hope you have a good weekend. We're all back here Monday night, 10:00 Eastern time. We hope you'll be back here and join us as well.
Until then, I'm Aaron Brown in New York. Good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Deadline?; Pentagon Says it Will Have Troops in Northern Iraq One Way or Another>
Aired February 28, 2003 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening again, everyone. The president's spokesman was asked what his reaction was to a vote by the AFLCIO to oppose the president's policy on Iraq. His reaction suggests we are wading further into the waters of turning this question of war into a matter of pure politics.
Said Ari Fleischer: The vote shows that some of the AFLCIO members are becoming "attachments to the Democratic Committee and it's liberal wing." We're not exactly sure what Mr. Fleisher would say about one of our guests tonight, Republican Senator Chuck Hagel, for he, too, has questions about the president's position on Iraq. But we will assume it will not be to call him an attachment of the Democratic National Committee or a liberal.
The other side in this debate hasn't exactly got clean hands either. To us, it seems many on the anti-war side make arguments that have less to do with Iraq and Saddam and a government that, by any definition, is brutal, and more to do with whether President Bush is owned by the oil industry. Many on that side seem either unwilling or incapable of believing that there are real and serious arguments in support of removing Saddam, should he fail to give up his weapons of mass destruction. In the late '90s, we'd remind them that President Clinton used arguments hardly different from President Bush in explaining why the country and the international community needed to rid Saddam of those weapons.
The point here is simple. This is serious stuff. Lives are at stake; thousands of them, Americans and others. The country is entitled to a serious debate, conducted by serious people in a serious manner. We wish we heard more of that on all sides these days.
We begin tonight with the intense bargaining that's going on at the U.N. over Iraq. Michael Okwu is following that tonight. Michael, start us off with a headline.
MICHAEL OKWU, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Iraq has agreed in principle to destroy a major missile program. Now, whether or not they follow through on that, could very well go a long way in shaping a Security Council debate on war and peace -- Aaron.
BROWN: Michael, thank you. Back to you at the top tonight.
And one thorny question this week, assuming there is a war, how many troops would it take to keep the peace? Jamie McIntyre has been looking into that debate going on at the Pentagon. Jamie, a headline.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, two headlines, really. On the question of how many troops and how much will it cost, something Congress really wants to know, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld keeps insisting it's not knowable. And on the subject of Turkey, which is dragging its feet on approving a U.S. troop deployment, the Pentagon says it's going to have troops in northern Iraq one way or another.
BROWN: Jamie, thank you.
A scandal involving the San Francisco Police Department, one that goes literally all the way to the top. Rusty Dornin on that tonight. So, Rusty, from San Francisco, a headline.
RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, it's rocked this city like an earthquake. Folks here are already referring to it as (UNINTELLIGIBLE) gate. We'll tell you about the fallout over a fight over fast food and how it may topple San Francisco's top cops.
BROWN: Rusty, thank you.
And a glimpse aboard the Shuttle Columbia not long before it broke apart. These are tough pictures. John Zarrella with more on that. John, a headline.
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN MIAMI BUREAU CHIEF: Aaron, about 250 tapes were on board the Shuttle Columbia. Apparently only one survived. It's of the last few mints of the shuttle's crew before it begins to break up -- Aaron.
BROWN: John, thank you. Back to you and the rest shortly.
Also coming up tonight, as we mentioned, we'll bring you a conversation we had this afternoon with Nebraska Senator Chuck Hagel. A Republican deeply concerned about going it alone or nearly alone in terms of Iraq.
Also, the latest on the rape scandal at the U.S. Air Force Academy in Colorado. The Air Force secretary vowing to clean up the academy. We'll talk to a reporter in Denver who has been breaking this story from the beginning and continues to do so.
And the debate over war in Iraq and the town the bomb built. Candy Crowley visits Los Alamos. It's our "Segment 7" report tonight. A busy night. All of that to come.
We begin with Iraq and something Senator Hagel said that strikes us as spot on tonight. We asked for his general take on things and he said uncertainty hangs over the country. Does Iraq really intend to start destroying its missiles by tomorrow's deadline? Will it stymie the American efforts at the Security Council?
Does Russia really intend to use its veto? Will Turkey come through? A lot of things are about to break but haven't quite yet. Until they do, we think the senator has got it about right: Nothing is certain at the end of a long week. Nothing, that is, except uncertainty.
We begin at the United Nations and CNN's Michael Okwu.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
OKWU (voice-over): If the Iraqis begin the process of destroying their Al Samoud missiles on Saturday, as they have promised, it will be an important step according to Hans Blix.
HANS BLIX, CHIEF U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: There are very many of these missiles, a lot of items that pertain to them and which we have enumerated in our letter which is to be destroyed. So it is a very significant piece of disarmament.
OKWU: Although an interim report from Blix prepared before Iraq's decision was handed to Security Council diplomats Friday, which called Iraq's disarmament efforts very limited so far, some members of the Council hailed the Iraqi move.
DOMINIQUE DE VILLEPIN, FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): France welcomes Iraq's decision concerning the destruction of the Al Samoud missiles. This decision is in agreement with the demands from the U.N. inspectors. The destruction must start without delay.
OKWU: And from the Russians today, a threat to block the U.S.- backed resolution authorizing war.
IGOR IVANOV, RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): Russia has the right of veto. If the interest of international stability demands it, Russia, of course, will exercise its right.
OKWU: Talk that may be deepening an already fractured Security Council. Here's how the votes look today. The U.S. and Great Britain would vote yes, along with Bulgaria and Spain, a co-sponsor. France, Russia, China, Germany and Syria are firmly against it. The key swing vote wait in the balance: Chile, Angola, Cameroon, Guinea, Mexico and Pakistan.
MUNIR AKRAM, PAKISTANI AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: If it's going to be vetoed by some not permanent member, then our position, whether we take it with whatever pain and suffering we have, whatever position we take will be meaningless.
STEFAN TAFROV, BULGARIAN AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: More pressure is need. And as long as the Security Council is divided, that pressure is not there. We won't be there. That's why we want a united council.
ISMAEL GASPAR MARTINS, ANGOLIAN AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: It has been possible to do it in the past. Why not in the future? On key questions, we can speak with one voice on key questions.
OKWU: Iraqi Ambassador Mohammed Aldouri.
MOHAMMED ALDOUR, IRAQI AMBASSADOR: They don't like to have war. This is a huge responsibility for everybody. So the split between them is split between war (ph) and level of peace.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
OKWU: The whole missile issue is something of a wild card, Aaron. If in fact the Iraqis follow through and start destroying its missile program, then the U.S. would be in a much more tough position to make its case among the Security Council members. Of course, U.S. officials all along will say that this is only one issue and, in fact, the Iraqis have failed to meet a whole host of obligations dating back to the early 1990s -- Aaron.
BROWN: I want to go back to some of the non-allied, the non- permanent members. Because their comments almost sound anguished. They want a compromise. They want the big players, the permanent member, to come up with a deal. In the hallways, is there any talk that that's going to happen?
OKWU: Absolutely not, Aaron. You heard the Chilean ambassador yesterday very angry with the United States, with France, with some of the big powers on the Security Council. Clearly, they've been trying to woo these so-called minnow nations, and these minnow nations are getting angry about it. They want the United States, they want France, they want Great Britain to come together -- Aaron.
BROWN: Michael, thank you. Michael Okwu over at the U.N. tonight. If the stakes weren't so high, this would all be fascinating to watch unfold, but they are very high. Couldn't be higher.
More now on the arm-twisting and the effects of Iraq's latest move. In part, this is an expectations game. Is the destruction of the Iraq's short-range missiles a significant milestone or not? As Michael eluded to, in his report, some will see it one way. From the beginning, the administration, of course, has seen it differently. Has said so and did again today. From the State Department, here's CNN's Andrea Koppel.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Bush White House dismissed the notion Iraq's announcement it will destroy its Al Samoud 2 missiles undercuts the U.S. case.
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Total disarmament is total disarmament is total disarmament. It's not a piece of disarmament.
KOPPEL: In an interview with "USA Today," President Bush suggested he believes military force is the only option left. "My attitude about Saddam Hussein is that if he had any attention of disarming," President Bush said, "he would have disarmed. We will disarm him now."
As for threats by Russia's foreign minister to veto a second resolution, U.S. officials tell CNN they do not believe President Putin has made up his mind. RICHARD BOUCHER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: I'm just saying it ain't over until it's over. Don't count your chickens before they're hatched.
KOPPEL: Refusing to be deterred by Russia's shot across the bow, the State Department designated three Chechen rebel groups as terrorist organizations. The U.S. says their members were responsible for last October's hostage taking in a Moscow theater; a move the Kremlin has wanted for months.
High-level U.S. envoys are also lobbying worldwide. Assistant Secretary of State Christina Rocha, with the president of Pakistan, a non-permanent yet vital member of the Security Council. In Chile, White House envoy (UNINTELLIGIBLE) did the same.
(on camera): The U.S. goal: to secure the nine out of 15 votes necessary to pass a second resolution. The U.S. strategy, said one U.S. official, to go for the bandwagon effect and create enough momentum to put pressure on China, Russia, and especially France, not to use their veto. Andrea Koppel, CNN, at the State Department.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: That's the diplomacy. On now to the war plans, and there is plenty of murkiness there. Tonight, the number of troops needed to control a post-war Iraq is a very public bone of contention. A battle between the head of the Army and his civilian bosses. So is the price tag, and so, too, the effort to secure a northern route into Iraq through Turkey. So from the Pentagon tonight, CNN's Jamie McIntyre.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE (voice-over): Whether or not the Turkish parliament allows 62,000 U.S. troops into Turkey when it votes Saturday, the Pentagon says it's ready to execute the war plan.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: We will have U.S. forces in northern Iraq one way or the other.
MCINTYRE: With more than 200,000 U.S. troops in the region, the U.S. says it's ready to strike at any time. But if it waits to position troops in Turkey, that will still take several more weeks. As for how many U.S. troops stay in Iraq, the Pentagon continues to downplay the estimate of several hundred thousand offered by the Army chief of staff in congressional testimony this week.
PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY: The notion of hundreds of thousands of American troops is way off the mark.
MCINTYRE: Privately, Pentagon officials were fuming that General Eric Shinseki's comments fueled criticism the Pentagon was understating what it would take to occupy post-war Iraq. But publicly, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld insisted it was an honest difference of opinion.
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Well, first of all, people are entitled to their opinions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is General Shinseki in any trouble? You're his boss.
RUMSFELD: No. Come on. Absolutely not, no. What are you trying to do, stir up trouble?
MCINTYRE: General Shinseki is a short timer, due to retire this summer. His aides insist the general sticks by his estimate, and independent analysts say the number may depend on when and how you count the troops, which will peak right after the war and then gradually be drawn down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In that sense, it's possible that Rumsfeld and Shinseki are both right. That Shinseki will be right for the first year and that Rumsfeld will be right for years two, three and thereafter.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: Now much to the frustration of Congress, the Pentagon is refusing not only to estimate how many troops may have to stay in Iraq, but how much the war may cost. The estimates have been ranging between $60 billion and $90 billion, but Defense Secretary Rumsfeld keeps insisting it's not knowable.
I had an interesting exchange with him the other day, when he said it will produce a range that's not useful. I said, "Tell us the range and we'll decide if it's useful." And he said, "I have already decided, it's not useful." And Secretary Rumsfeld tends to have the last word in those conversations -- Aaron.
BROWN: Well, he does for now. One of the things that's interesting to me here is this is, in some sense, on both questions, an intramural struggle. You have the head of the Army and his civilian bosses. The discussion on how much the war cost really came out of the White House earlier in the week.
So somebody has been thinking about both of these questions. It's unusual for this administration not to be on the same page.
MCINTYRE: Well, a lot of this is, again, frustration from Congress. For instance, General Shinseki's comment came in response to Senator Levin. And as soon as he said it, the Pentagon began to downplay the numbers, saying it was way off the mark. But Senator Levin in an interview with CNN, for instance, said, well, he put a lot of stock in it because it was a top military guy's first instinct.
So he was sticking to it. And I think that's one of the things that's rubbed the Pentagon the wrong way, is that it has fueled some of the opponents of the Pentagon's policy on Capitol Hill, and this place is run by the civilians. And General Shinseki is supposed to stay in his lane.
BROWN: And just on the question of Turkey and how the troops would get in if the Turks do not go along, how do they get them in there? By carrier, by parachute? How do they do it?
MCINTYRE: Well, it's essentially -- they're going to take them around to Kuwait. In fact, they don't need to wait as long if they're not going to get there, because they have plenty of troops in Kuwait, and they'd simply have to go to the north from the south. So it's not as easy, but U.S. insists it can do it.
And one official here today said wouldn't it be a shame if, after all this negotiating, Turkey didn't benefit from this deal. Not just with the money, but also with having a real say in what happens in Iraq afterwards if they let this deal slip by.
BROWN: Jamie, thank you. Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. I almost said Jamie Pentagon. It must be Friday. Have a good weekend.
Ahead on NEWNIGHT: speaking out against the war with Iraq. We'll have our conversation with Republican Senator from Nebraska Chuck Hagel. He has some strong reservations.
And later, a major scandal in San Francisco, as the police chief and other top officers are indicted for covering up a beating by other officers. Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We mentioned Senator Chuck Hagel three times already in the program. We probably should formally introduce him now. The senator, to us, is one of the more interesting voices on the subject of Iraq. He's a Republican; he's from Nebraska.
Nebraska is intensely pragmatic, largely conservative. Home to the Strategic Air Command, comfortable with things military, but also deeply cautious about the use of such power. So it isn't surprising that the senator has been, at times, both a strong advocate of the use of force around the world, but also wary of squandering American troops or treasure or credibility. We spoke with Senator Hagel this afternoon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Senator, you said the other day in a speech, we are wrecking coalitions, relationships and alliances so we can get a two- week start on going to war alone. What are you concerned about here?
SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R), NEBRASKA: I'm concerned, Aaron, today with what I have been concerned about all along. It is not about Saddam Hussein being rehabilitated. It is not about whether we should or need to deal with him. Of course we need to deal with him. But it is about how we deal with him.
Bringing our allies along with us, working through the legitimacy of the United Nations. Because what ends in Baghdad is just the beginning of another chapter of our dealing with terrorism, proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. We, the United States, can't do this alone. There's going to be an extended commitment in the Middle East of resources, of prestige, of men, of treasure. This is going to be a long-term effort. We can't see, view or deal with Iraq in a vacuum.
BROWN: What do your constituents think?
HAGEL: Well, I hear from my constituents just like my colleagues hear from theirs. I think, Aaron, America is off balance. They're concerned. They are frightened.
Uncertainty hangs over our country. Not just the prospect of war, but certainly terrorism. Our economy cannot find an equilibrium and a balance. And because of all of this, we have a very concerned American public that is becoming frustrated with all of this. And I understand that. But they are on edge.
And what I have said, and I hear this back from many of my constituents, let's stay steady. Let's be wise in how we do this. Let's not get ourselves into something that we haven't thought through. Because there will be consequences if we go to war.
Now we know, I know, we all know that you can't predict the end of these kinds of things or totally the outcome. But that's the point of staying with our allies and working within the United Nations. Because there will be consequences if we go to war. And we want to have this done with our allies because there are many, many other dangerous places in the world, North Korea, Afghanistan, we're still at war, the Israeli-Palestinian issue, India, Pakistan, South America, that we can't deal with all of these alone. We need our allies.
BROWN: Let me try to get a couple more things done here. As I'm sure you know, there's fierce negotiations going on at the U.N. to try and get the votes out of the Security Council. Do you have any concern that, ultimately, countries are being promised so much, a trade deal here, a trade deal there, some loans here, some loans there, that the decision itself is not being made on the merits of the argument, but on all the perks of staying with the United States?
HAGEL: Well, I am concerned about that. And I think some of my colleagues are. I asked in an open hearing the Senate Foreign Relations Committee a couple weeks ago, would you present -- I said this to the undersecretary of state, the undersecretary of defense -- present this panel the names of the countries that are part of the so- called coalition of the willing and what they are going to contribute.
Well, I was told that they couldn't produce that in an open hearing, which I was quite astounded to hear that, since we brag about it all the time. And I still have not gotten a full complete list even in top secret surroundings of what our supposed allies, coalition of the willing, would do. Your point is exactly right.
Here we have Turkey, that we have been negotiating with, and as of this point they've still not accepted our deal. The Israelis are in town shopping for $12 billion of more funds. The Egyptians were here two weeks ago. The Jordanians have already been here and want more. Plus our allies in Eastern Europe are asking for deals. I don't think that's the kind of so-called coalition of the willing that you want to go to war with. This needs to include all of our people for all of the same reasons. The coalition should be based on the threats and the challenges of common interest.
Terrorism is not unique to America. Proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, that's not unique to America. It's a threat to all of us. And we need all of us together. Not buying our allies here, but all of us there for the right reasons and the same reasons.
BROWN: Senator, we always enjoy having you on the program. The issues are never easy. However, one of these days that will change. Thank you for your time.
HAGEL: Thank you, Aaron.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Senator Chuck Hagel. We talked to him earlier this afternoon.
A few more items now from around the world before we go to break, sharting in (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Egypt. Members of the Arab League meeting there this weekend to hammer out a unified position on Iraq, or at least to make an effort. No sign of agreement yet, and none is expected anytime soon.
To Karachi, Pakistan. Gunmen there opened fire on a U.S. consulate today. They came out af a park across the street and took aim at a guard house. Two Pakistani policemen died in the attack. Five other people were wounded. No Americans were hurt.
Police have one man in custody. They say he is from Afghanistan.
And Israel's prime minister, Ariel Sharon, began his second term today. He presented his new government to the Knesset and said no peace talks until the Palestinian Authority reforms and the violence stops.
Coming up tonight on NEWSNIGHT: a San Francisco scandal, as the police chief and other top officers are indicted for covering up a crime. That and more as we continue on Friday from New York. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: In San Francisco tonight, there's a police problem and no small problem at that. A grand jury has indicted the police chief and assistant chief. Others indicted as well, in a case that started with an alleged beating but turned, according to the grand jury, into something far different. Reporting for us, CNN's Rusty Dornin.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DORNIN (voice-over): November 20th, outside a San Francisco bar, Adam Snyder just got off work. He and his friend, James Santoro (ph), say they were then attacked by two men. Snyder says the men were trying to steal a bag of takeout food. Then a third drove up in a pickup and joined the brawl. Snyder called 911.
DISPATCHER: Why are you breathing so hard?
ADAM SNYDER: Because they just beat the hell out of me.
DISPATCHER: OK. Well do you need an ambulance?
SNYDER: No. I need some cops fast.
DORNIN: Within hours, police had three suspects, off duty San Francisco police officers. One, Alex Fagan, Jr., (ph), son of the assistant police chief. For months, the police department had been criticized for dragging its feet in the investigation and covering up evidence.
Then in mid January, a 27-year police veteran, Joe Dutto, who investigated the incident, was transferred to the vice squad. He says he was punished for pursuing the case too vigorously.
LT. JOE DUTTO, SAN FRANCISCO POLICE: I'm disappointed in things that others in our department have done. I think the whole picture has been lost here as to what our job is.
DORNIN: After hearing from 42 witnesses, a grand jury indicted the three off-duty police officers for assault and seven others for conspiracy, including the Police Chief Earl Sanders (ph), Assistant Police Chief Alex Fagan (ph), the father of one of the accused attackers, and a deputy police chief.
All but the police chief were booked, photographed and fingerprinted by Friday afternoon. An attorney for one of the police commanders charged with conspiracy says there is no evidence of wrongdoing.
BOB MOORE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It is unimaginable that this district attorney indicted the command staff, the chief of police, and indicted my client. Out of the question. It just doesn't support it.
DORNIN: Mayor Willie Brown appointed the police chief and has been critical of the district attorney's handling of the case. Brown, rarely at a lack for words, had few for reporters.
MAYOR WILLIE BROWN, SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA: I have no information, none whatsoever. The district attorney's office, nor has the grand jury supplied the major of this city with any information.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DORNIN: Well, Mayor Willie Brown had plenty of information tonight for an emergency meeting of the police commissioners. He pleaded with them not to suspend those top command officers that are charged with conspiracy. He says he believes that they will be found innocent. Meantime, there is a closed meeting going on right now, where they may decide on an acting police chief. And, Aaron, it's fair to say that this city has been in an uproar over this case. It's been on the back burner simmering. And nobody really thought that these indictments would be as far reaching as they are.
BROWN: All right, Rusty, conspiracy is the name of the crime. Do we have any details on what the chief and the deputy chief actually are alleged to have done?
DORNIN: Some of the allegations involve the night that the incident occurred, things like, when the suspects did come back to the scene, the victims were not asked to identify them. Their clothes were not checked for blood or anything like that because of this fight that had ensued.
The truck was not searched for the food, the takeout food that had been taken from the men, and also that the off-duty police officers were not tested for alcohol either. Those are some of the allegations.
BROWN: And do they allege that the chief was somehow responsible for that?
DORNIN: The chief came into power just about four months before this incident happened. He was appointed by Willie Brown.
We have mainly heard some other officers involved in the investigation, that they did not follow through with some thins. I have not heard the specific charges against the chief, other than he may have been aware of what was going on.
BROWN: Rusty, thank you -- Rusty Dornin, who's been working the story since it broke late this afternoon.
Still to come on NEWSNIGHT: the last minutes of the shuttle Columbia. We'll show you the videotape that survived the accident.
And, later, we'll talk with the reporter who broke the story of the Air Force Academy rape scandal.
Still a long way to go here on a Friday night. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: And next on NEWSNIGHT: the videotape of the last few minutes of the flight of the shuttle Columbia.
A short break first.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We all know the feeling you get when you're watching a sad movie and you already know how it's going to end. It's that feeling of dread in the pit of your stomach. You watch the characters go about their lives oblivious to their fate.
That's the feeling we had today, except it wasn't a movie. It was real. And the characters were not actors. They were astronauts aboard the shuttle Columbia in some of the final carefree moments of their lives.
Reporting for us, CNN's John Zarrella.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She comes to life.
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN MIAMI BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): The videotape begins with a shot of Commander Rick Husband in the background and pilot Willie McCool, closest to where the camera was mounted on the flight desk.
Husband and McCool can be heard going through standard pre- landing checklists.
RICK HUSBAND, COLUMBIA COMMANDER: Houston, Rick. We'll take another item 27, please. Oh, shoot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Looks good. Did we miss that?
HUSBAND: We're back on it. But I need to do an item 27.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, oh, oh.
ZARRELLA: The videotape is 13 minutes long. The recording begins at about 8:35 a.m. eastern time as the vehicle is over the Pacific Ocean.
The tape ends at 8:48 a.m., just as Colombia is reaching the west coast of the U.S.
From the emotions of the crew, there's no indication they knew anything was about to go wrong.
At one point mission specialist Laurel Clark takes the camera and begins videotaping.
Mission specialist Kalpana Chawla waves.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) I just turned to see what you have there.
ZARRELLA: The video shows only four of the seven astronauts, those seated on the flight deck area. The other three -- specialists Mike Anderson, Dave Brown and payload specialist Ilan Ramon -- were seated on the mid-deck.
As the tape progresses, the astronauts see the flash as a plasma, hot gases that form around the shuttle during the heat of re-entry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That might be some plasma now. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Think so.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. They're not firing right now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's hard to get, actually.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We see it out the front, also.
ZARRELLA: One theory is that minutes later, these gasses entered a breach in the shuttle's left wing and ultimately led to Columbia breaking apart.
(on camera): About four minutes after this tape ends is when flight controllers in Houston first noticed heat sensor readings going up in Columbia's left wing. NASA officials say there is nothing on this tape that will help them figure out what caused the Columbia accident.
John Zarrella, CNN, Miami.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Well, you couldn't have come up with a more fitting place for the Air Force secretary to speak last night. He talked to the National Character and Leadership Symposium at the Air Force Academy.
Lately, there have been grave questions about both character and leadership at the academy, accusations that some cadets, current and former, were sexually assaulted and then punished for coming forward. Secretary James Roche got a standing ovation at last night's event, vowing to make sure cadets can come forward without fear and promising to go after the offenders. As he put it, "We've got to get these bums out of here."
Meanwhile, the complaints keep coming, as reported today by John Ferrugia, of CNN affiliate KMGH in Denver, a former cadet named Sharon (ph) who says she was raped as a freshman at the academy in 1999. She didn't report it and left the academy soon after. She told academy officials five months later and this is what she said they said to her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They assumed things that hadn't happened. And so I went in and told them what actually happened and they told me I was a liar. And they told me that none of this happened, and I had actually made the whole thing up, and I just didn't want to be at the academy, and I was a terrible cadet, and I wasn't doing well, and so this was my excuse to leave.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The academy has refused to comment on Sharon's accusations.
John Ferrugia, the reporter, joins us again tonight from Denver. It's good to see you.
Just on this case, anything unique about this case as compared to the other 20 or so that you've been working with?
JOHN FERRUGIA, KMGH REPORTER: Well, Aaron, in this case, her mother is actually a lieutenant colonel in the Air Force and lives at the Air Force Academy. And her father is also in the Air Force as an enlisted man, a master sergeant.
And they came to us and basically told us that they couldn't get anything done. She's a senior officer in the Air Force. They couldn't get anything done. They got no satisfaction. And, in fact, she told us that the Offices of Special Investigations at the Air Force Academy told her, indeed, she was lying as well.
BROWN: I wanted just a couple background things for people who may not have been following this. First, when cadets talk about -- when these women talk about being punished, what is it that's happening to them?
FERRUGIA: Well, they get what are called hits or demerits. And they are punished generally for breaking cadet rules, things like drinking or underage drinking or fraternization with upperclassmen.
Those are the things that, when you break a cadet rule, you get what is called a tour. That is one hour of physical punishment. That could be running, marching, leaning against the wall, but an hour of punishment. And many of these are very serious infractions. And you can indeed get 10, 12, 15 hours of tours, or punishment, for each one of these infractions.
BROWN: So, you come in and you say, this happened to me and they say, were you drinking? And you say yes and then you're punished for the drinking? Is that essentially how it works?
FERRUGIA: Well, Aaron, there is a rule at the Air Force Academy that calls for amnesty. And it doesn't say it's absolute. It says you may get amnesty, but they want you to come forward and report a sexual assault. So you do report. And let's say it happened on a Saturday night.
And you come in and you say, well, I was sexually assaulted. Yes, there was alcohol and I was with an upperclassmen and maybe a couple of upperclassmen, whatever. And they say, OK, we'll give you amnesty for those things, because we want you to report that sexual assault. But then what they do is, they investigate the victim. They go out and they ask people, well, has this woman ever drunk on campus before? Has she ever had a drink? Has she fraternized before?
So, pretty soon, they build a case of infractions, saying, well, last Thursday, she did this and two weeks ago, she did that. They then bring her in and say, well, we're going to give you amnesty for Saturday, but we understand a week ago Thursday -- and we have witnesses -- that you were drinking then. Were you? Well, there's an honor code at the academy, which says, I will not lie, cheat or steal. Well, if she lies and says no, she's out. If she says yes, I was, she's then punished. So, they wouldn't have known about that had she not come in and report it.
BROWN: Do you have any sense -- now, you've been working this for a bit -- that, as it has come to light, that, in fact -- as opposed to in word -- that, in fact, the top brass either at the Pentagon or at the academy itself are actually serious about solving it?
FERRUGIA: I think the Air Force secretary is very serious about this. As you pointed out in the earlier clip there, he was -- he had some very strong words for the cadets at the Air Force Academy.
On Wednesday, we spoke with him. He not only called these people bums. He called them criminals. And he told them last night -- he told the Air Force cadets last night that this was just a fringe group, clearly not the majority of the men or women who are there. He talked about a fringe group.
But he said you can expect things are going to change and they are going to change across the board. That was interpreted as a big change coming in the administration, also, of the academy.
BROWN: The problem here I see, you're not talking about a group. You're talking about two, in a sense. You're talking about people, men, who allegedly commit these crimes, but you're also talking about the management, if you will, that places the victim -- or victimizes the victim, if you will. Both cultures have to change.
FERRUGIA: That's right.
And you said the key word there: culture. The culture of the Air Force Academy, according to the women we've been talking to, and even women who have been there and are now officers -- we've even talked to many who have called us, e-mailed us. And they talk about the culture where sexual assault is accepted. It's within the culture. It just happens there.
We've been told that, from the second or third week that women are there, they have upper-class trainers, juniors and seniors. Some of those are women. Women tell them and warn them, in the time you're here, this is going to happen to you. It's going to happen to many of you. Don't report it, because, if you do, your career is over.
BROWN: That's unbelievable. That's an unbelievable way to end this thing.
John, it's nice to see you again -- John Ferrugia in Denver, who has done terrific work on this over the weeks.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll check morning papers.
Segment seven tonight a little bit later: A town that owes its birth to war takes the question of war with Iraq very seriously. It's Friday night. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: And ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll check the morning papers.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: OK, here we go, morning papers from around the country and around the world. The Saturday papers could be a little thin, though, I got to tell you. Here we go.
Nothing thin about "The "San Francisco Chronicle" headline: "Indictments Jolt San Francisco Police." We reported this earlier.
I actually have to take my glasses off to do this bit now. I can't do it otherwise.
What we found interesting -- among the things we found interesting, according to "The Chronicle," two sources say the grand jury actually went farther, much farther than the district attorney had hoped, your runaway grand jury. Anyway, "The San Francisco Chronicle."
Look at this picture. This is "The Boston Herald." "Night From Hell" is the headline. They have some exclusive pictures of the nightclub fire up in Rhode Island, just across the way. And if the others follow through on that one, this is a heck of an edition of "The Boston Herald" for Saturday morning.
"The Detroit News and Free Press" -- they combine the papers on the weekend. I don't want to say it was a really slow news day. I don't have my glasses on. You still out there. "More Shoppers Find Self-Checkout Easy." We love these papers. It's a little slow.
All right, how are we doing on time? One minute. OK.
"The Weekend Australian" -- and they combine the two. I can never keep track what day it is in Australia. This helps me. It's March 1 and 2. "P.M." -- prime minister -- "Vetoes Maternity Leave Pay." That's the big news story, but the story people really care about -- come over a little bit to the side -- "Mast and Kiwi Hearts Broken in Two." It's the America's Cup, which, oddly, has no Americans in it. Anyway, the New Zealand team, they spent like $10 million on this boat. It goes nowhere.
Tony Blair, in "The Guardian," says, "History will be my judge." He's among the most interesting stories out there these days.
One picture to show you tonight, I think. This comes from Afghanistan.
Now I actually have to put my glasses on. You think this is easy, this job, don't you?
OK, could it really be that it's been a whole year since we last saw this activity? They call it goat-grabbing. And it's sort of like rodeo, Afghani-style. They get this dead goat and they move it around or soccer with the goat, however you want to do it. Anyway, people who don't think thins are better there, we've made the country safe for goat-grabbing. Got to do something.
Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT: segment seven. We'll take you to Los Alamos and the debate over the war with Iraq. Candy Crowley has that.
So that's the morning papers for the week.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Finally from us tonight: Wars are often waged in the name of peace. And that's part of what makes this debate so hard. Do you risk lives and sometimes take lives, even innocent lives, in hopes of saving many more innocent people down the road?
This is what many of us are grappling with these days as we think about a war with Iraq. Yet, for the people in one spot of the country, it's ambivalence that runs deep, to the very DNA of their city's history.
Here's CNN's Candy Crowley.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The street signs here speak history: Manhattan, Oppenheimer, Trinity. This is the town the bomb built.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three, two, one, now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CROWLEY: What better place to talk of war?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I spent most of my career here working on nuclear weapons, making the ground shake in Nevada, making the ground shake out here in Los Alamos. I don't apologize for that. But I think that gives me and you a special responsibility, because we know what those weapons can do.
CROWLEY: To be honest, when it all began, nobody envisioned this night, this overcapacity crowd listening as they offered a resolution to the Los Alamos County Council.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, therefore, be it resolved that the governing body of Los Alamos County hereby strongly advises against any preemptive strike or act of war against the people of Iraq without the United Nations' support.
CROWLEY: It all started as a conversation among the like-minded, Chuck, an environmental impact consultant. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can keep the inspectors in. We can put overwhelming force in there, not in a warlike manner, but in support of the inspectors.
CROWLEY: Chick, a retired lab scientist.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wish I had a nickel for everybody who said to me: I can't believe you're saying this. I thought I was crazy. I am against this. I don't think this is right. But I just thought I was crazy.
CROWLEY: And so it began.
CROWD (singing): Put your swords and guns away.
CROWLEY: The Los Alamos anti-war movement. Questioning the use of force is a time-honored Los Alamos tradition. J. Robert Oppenheimer, father of the atomic bomb, opposed development of the more powerful hydrogen bomb. Just because you build weapons doesn't mean you want them used. And just because you believe war may be necessary doesn't mean you don't welcome debate.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that's a good discussion. It helps us to put the morality of war in a good framework.
CROWLEY: Inside a building once used to house and feed Manhattan Project workers, three men who provide security to the lab, as it's known in Los Alamos, struggle to fit their positions into bumper-style language.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pro-war is certainly not my stance. No one hates war more than those of us who serve in the military and who ultimately are going to be the ones to fight it.
CROWLEY: They are all vets. All support the president.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What I worried about was a community sending one statement to those troops sitting over there, where I had sat, telling them, we don't support what you're doing. I thought it would be devastating to the morale.
CROWLEY: Still, Mike Wismer (ph), a county council member, thought Los Alamos needed to talk this out. And so they did. They talked with the certainly of youth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I cannot begin to understand why we should or ever have gone to war.
CROWLEY: They talked with the sadness of experience.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As a veteran, I'll tell you that I've faced battle and it's not pleasant. But I feel that war will protect my children and the future. I'm very emotional about this issue.
CROWLEY: They spoke in fear.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going to throw a brick right in a hornet's nest of Islamic fundamentalism and hatred.
CROWLEY: And they spoke in anger.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For all of those of you that are still trying to find reasons why we shouldn't go to this war, why we shouldn't prosecute Saddam Hussein as the war criminal and the murderer that he is, I stand outraged. That's all I have to say.
CROWLEY: Across the country, more than 100 local councils have approved anti-war resolutions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please call the roll.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ms. Elvis (ph)?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
CROWLEY: Los Alamos is not one of them.
Candy Crowley, CNN, Los Alamos, New Mexico.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: A longer version of that piece and much more is a part of special "CNN PRESENTS," "SHOWDOWN: IRAQ: ON THE BRINK." It airs Saturday and Sunday -- or, or Sunday, depending on your scheduling here -- 8:00 Eastern time, "SHOWDOWN: IRAQ," a special "CNN PRESENTS." Some nice things in there. You might want to make some time for that this weekend.
Hope you have a good weekend. We're all back here Monday night, 10:00 Eastern time. We hope you'll be back here and join us as well.
Until then, I'm Aaron Brown in New York. Good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.
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Deadline?; Pentagon Says it Will Have Troops in Northern Iraq One Way or Another>
