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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Al Qaeda Master Mind Captured in Pakistan; Turkish Parliament Votes Against U.S. Troops Staging on Turkish Soil; North Korean MiGs Intercept RC-135 Surveillance Plane
Aired March 03, 2003 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: And good evening again, everyone. Democracy can be a messy thing. A dictatorship, if you think of it, is so much neater. In a dictatorship if you want something, you just do it. You want a new palace, you order it built. You wan that country over there, you just go seize it.
Democracy, however, is messier. The Turkish Parliament seems to be proving the point. And it's an interesting problem. On the one hand, the United States is promising lots of money and some of the spoils of war. For a country, Turkey, with its economy in the tank, that's a pretty inviting deal to leadership. On the other hand, something like 90 percent of the Turks think basing Americans on their soil to launch a war against Iraq is not such a great thing.
Ninety percent is a lot. There are very few issues in American life, including probably the Bill of Rights, that would get 90 percent support. That being the case, it would have been a shocker if the Turks had gone along with the U.S. plan, feeling as they do.
But before this is over, don't you have a feeling that the Turkish Parliament will do what the administration is counting on it to do? Those Parliamentarians will say that leadership sometimes requires that popular will be ignored, that the greater good sometimes escapes the man and woman on the street.
And that's true. Sometimes it does. We just wish the Turks were making their decision on the power of our argument rather than on the power of the people who are writing the check.
We move on to the news of the day, and we begin with a big development in the war on terror the capture of a top al Qaeda operative. David Ensor has the latest on that. So, David, start us off with a headline, please.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, the headline today is the news about just how big a victory that was on Saturday when Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was seized. They not only got the guy, the operational commander of al Qaeda, they got his laptop, they got his cell phones, they got his notes.
And included in those, according to sources, is a lot of information, lists of al Qaeda operatives, including some that are suspected to be inside the United States.
BROWN: David, thank you. Back to you at the top tonight.
A look now at the trail that led to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed. Ash-har Quraishi is on the video phone from Islamabad. A headline from you tonight.
ASH-HAR QURAISHI, CNN ISLAMABAD BUREAU CHIEF: Well, Aaron, it's been a long road in the hunt for Khalid Shaikh Mohammed here in Pakistan. Some violent encounters on the way. The details just becoming aware to us as to how this raid went down and the hiccups that were involved -- Aaron.
BROWN: Thank you.
To the White House next, the latest challenges involving Iraq, and there are a number. Senior White House Correspondent John King has the duty. John, a headline.
JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, reaching back to the lexicon of the first Gulf War, the White House said today it is the mother of all distractions, the fact that Iraq is destroying some of its Al Samoud 2 missiles. The White House says no one should be fooled, but about a week before the key vote in the U.N. Security Council the administration is still short the votes -- Aaron.
BROWN: John, thank you.
And so what now for the war plans after the decision this weekend by the Turkish Parliament? Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. Jamie, the headline.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, the U.S. military needed a positive answer from Turkey two weeks ago. They may yet get it, but already the military has made other plans. We'll tell you about that.
BROWN: Thank you, Jamie. Back to you and the rest shortly.
Also coming up tonight on NEWSNIGHT, this weekend's capture brings some relief, but also countless questions. Questions about terror plots that could be in the making here in the United States. We'll talk with John Miller, who's in charge of keeping Los Angeles safe from terror.
Also tonight, he spent years as a fugitive. Today jury selection began in the murder trial of James Kopp, the man accused of killing a doctor for the sole reason the doctor performed abortions.
And a story of love at first sight and a wedding in the shadow of war. A Kurdish love story is "Segment 7" tonight. All of that in the hour ahead.
We begin with Khalid Shaikh Mohammed. By any standard, his capture over the weekend was a victory for the good guys, but a challenge as well. What was he planning? What does he know? Can he be made to talk? There is a tremendous amount to be learned from the man and a burning necessity to learn it quickly. So a challenge it is. But for a change, the welcome kind. We start with CNN's David Ensor.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR (voice-over): Among the information seized at the house where the al Qaeda operations chief was captured, U.S. sources tell CNN, is a treasure trove on al Qaeda, including the names of suspected al Qaeda operatives, some of them believed to be in cities in the United States.
Sources say Washington, D.C. is among the cities, the information suggests, may contain al Qaeda personnel. U.S. officials have said they have evidence Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was trying recently to organize another attack against the United States.
U.S. intelligence officials are declining comment on the information gleaned during the raid, but other U.S. sources say FBI agents are speeding to try to track down the suspected operatives named in it, hoping to stop any imminent attack.
MICHAEL CHERTOFF, ASST. ATTORNEY GENERAL: We are obviously always mindful of the need to be vigilant and move as quickly as possible to frustrate anything that's ongoing in terms of potential terrorist threats.
ENSOR: Mohammed, meantime, is under intense interrogation at an undisclosed location by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency. Officials say all appropriate pressure will be used in an effort to stop any attacks the new prisoner may know of.
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The standard for any type of interrogation of some body in American custody is to be humane and to follow all international laws and accords dealing with this type subject. That is precisely what has been happening and exactly what will happen.
ENSOR: Although the White House expressed warm gratitude to Pakistan's President Musharraf, some U.S. officials privately expressed dismay that Pakistani officials made news of the seizure public so quickly. U.S. officials would have liked more time to try to roll up al Qaeda cells before the word got to them that their operations chief was an in enemy hands.
PETER BERGER, TERRORISM ANALYST: It's quite possible that people may panic and try and push something forward because they're worried he may talk. Most of the al Qaeda leadership have eventually talked. The question is really time. You know, time is of the essence.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR: Time is of the essence, and though U.S. officials express confidence that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed can in time be convinced to cooperate with his interrogators let's face it, Aaron, they're in a hurry.
BROWN: Well, they must assume he knows everything up to and perhaps including the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden. Fair enough? ENSOR: They believe he may, yes.
BROWN: And do we know where he is being held?
ENSOR: No. Neither he nor Abu Zubaydah nor Ramzi Binalshibh, nor any of the senior al Qaeda people that have been nabbed and are being kept by the CIA in undisclosed locations overseas.
The goal is to put them where they're out of the reach of the protections of American jurisprudence and at the same time have nobody know where they are so that doesn't put pressure on the country, the host country that's involved. That's the way they're handling these people.
BROWN: And do we know on the other two how truthful they've been? It may help us gauge how valuable ultimately Mohammed is.
ENSOR: From what I've heard Abu Zubaydah lied a good deal at the beginning. But they are patiently going back to him, pointing out where they know he's lied, cross-referencing it with other things. And they say now that he and all the other prisoners are providing useful intelligence, at least to some degree or another.
BROWN: And everything we know so far about Mohammed, this is a question, we know because the government has looked at his computer as opposed to gotten answers directly from him?
ENSOR: I believe that's right. There are some reports he may be talking. There's even a report that he's talking but all he's doing is reciting the Quaran. There's nothing official, nothing confirmed from officials telling me that he's being cooperative at this point.
BROWN: OK. David, thank you. David Ensor on a very important story, of which we have more.
This is by no means Khalid Shaikh Mohammed's first brush with capture. He's dodged a few. He's been at the top of wanted lists and eluding authorities for years, long before 9/11, and a number of times in the months that followed. Here again, CNN's Ash-har Quraishi.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
QURAISHI (voice-over): September 11, 2002 -- Pakistani police thought they were going to capture Khalid Shaikh Mohammed in the Southern port city of Karachi. The early morning raid turns into a firefight when police enter the apartment complex and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed gets away.
When the shooting stops, security forces had captured another key al Qaeda operative, Ramzi Binalshibh. Investigators follow intelligence leads to Quetta, in the Southwestern province of Balochistan. In a raid on February 14, authorities capture an al Qaeda operative reported to be an Egyptian. Khalid Shaikh Mohammed slips through the dragnet yet again.
Using information gathered from the operative nabbed in Quetta, authorities track Khalid Shaikh Mohammed to Rawalpindi, just 9 miles form Pakistan's capital. He is, authorities soon learn, staying in the home of Ahmed Abdul Qadoos, a member of Pakistan's largest religious political party, the Jemaat Islami.
At 3 a.m. Saturday, in a jointly planned operation, more than two dozen American and Pakistani security agents surround Qadoos' house. Agents enter the home, herding the women and children into a small room.
QUDISA, AHMED ABDUL QADOOS' SISTER: They just banged open the doors, broke the locks and they pushed my habi (ph), my sister-in-law, and the kids into a room, and they had the rifle or a Kalashnikov held to their head and they were told to sit quietly. And my brother, he went out, and they took him away.
QURAISHI: Finally overpowering their man, the security forces take Mohammed into custody, along with Qadoos and another suspected al Qaeda operative described as a Somali.
SHEIKH BASHID AHMED, PAKISTANI INFO MINISTER: The agencies were looking for him for a long time, but he always escaped. And today he was caught early morning and he was arrested.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QURAISHI: Here U.S. intelligence officials and highly placed Pakistani sources tell us that Mohammed was handed over to U.S. officials within hours of that raid and was transported out of the country. Now, despite conflicting public claims by the Pakistani administration, CNN sources in Washington and Islamabad say that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed is no longer here in Pakistan -- Aaron.
BROWN: Ash-har, thank you very much. The view from Pakistan.
More now on the interrogation of this man. It is an axiom in our business that day-old news is only slightly better than day-old fish. That goes double, triple, 10, 000 fold for day-old intelligence. The stakes, obviously, could hardly be higher. So it's obvious interrogators want to know all they can, as quickly as they can, from Khalid Shaikh Mohammed.
Your gut says nothing should be spared, no tool untried in the effort, in other words, torture if it works. Your head wonders if that's, in fact, the best way of going about it for a whole lot of reasons, including would it even work. We're joined from Washington tonight by retired Colonel Gerald York, former chief of operations for the Defense Intelligence Agency.
Sir, nice to have you with us tonight.
Tell me what you think is happening to Mr. Mohammed right now.
COL. GERALD YORK, U.S. ARMY (RET.): I think that at this particular point they're still trying to keep him disoriented, obviously going in that early in the morning, getting him out of a sound sleep. He's going to be somewhat disoriented as long as they can keep him disoriented and talking, and from what everyone has said he seems to be talking, saying something.
BROWN: How does disorientation facilitate getting him to answer questions?
YORK: Well, if he's disoriented and as long as they can keep him off guard and disoriented, then that helps in the questioning that he may give up something or he may say something that he normally would not if he was in control of himself.
BROWN: Tell me the line between appropriate interrogation technique and inappropriate, torture.
YORK: Well, I think there is a line there, and I think when you get into the torture that's something that the U.S. does not condone nor participate in.
You get individuals who may talk or tell you things that you may want to hear just to stop the torture. What you want to do is it's a mind game. What you want to do is get inside that individual's mind and kind of control that individual. And you can do it through various things that's not torture. Sleep deprivation, things like this, that is not physical or mental torture but does kind of, like I said before, keep the individual disoriented so that you get them to talk and you get them to a point where their guard is down and hopefully they say something that is useful to you.
BROWN: Drugs appropriate and helpful here?
YORK: I've seen that discussed in the press recently, about whether the use of drugs. A lot depends on the individual.
I think in a case like, this they're going to be looking at all kinds of options. But first they're going to want to see if just talking with the individual will work.
BROWN: So you think a guy at this level might be convinced to talk with a cup of coffee and a warm voice?
YORK: Probably not, although I think from what we've seen from Afghanistan some of the top individuals there that were captured have talked, have given up information, not necessarily immediately.
And that's what you want. You want, especially in a case like this, where the information that the individual has is of such importance that you need to get it as quickly as possible -- but here other things were captured as well that may give leads and may give us more clues than what the individual is saying of what's going to happen.
BROWN: Is a person generally -- we can't know specifically about this person -- is a person generally more vulnerable in the first 48 hours or the second 48 hours?
YORK: Usually in the first 24 to 48 hours, because his whole world has been changed, there's a fear factor, he doesn't know what to expect, he may or may not know exactly who has possession of him at the time. He may be very fearful.
After the 48 hours, as you get on longer into the session, he will know more what to expect, who has him, and exactly what limits they'll go to get the information.
BROWN: Many of these al Qaeda people were, we believe at least, prepared to be martyred. Some clearly were on 9/11. Is that a factor in how they are dealt with now?
YORK: Well, I think when they're planning to be a martyr they're doing it on their terms. A situation like this, they're not in control, someone else is in control. They can still be a martyr, but it's at someone else's choosing, not their own. And psychologically, that has -- that has some play.
BROWN: Let me ask you one more thing. I mean, given that they want to know things quickly her,e for obvious reasons, would it be better if the interrogation were done by somebody who was not an American, who doesn't have to play by the same rules, and let's just get what the guy has and be done with it?
YORK: Well, all of that has to be taken into consideration.
Obviously, there's other countries that are interested in this individual as well as the United States. And as we know, not every one plays by the same rules that we play by. That's something that has to be weighed and the options looked at very closely, because you don't want to, one, cause damage to other folks that may be captured as well.
If they know that they're going to be taken care of and treated well, that may play as well. These individuals are probably taught counterinterrogation techniques. So you have to look at that. It's really a mind game.
BROWN: It is that. Colonel York, good to talk to you tonight. Thank you.
YORK: Good to talk with you. Thank you.
BROWN: A lot of good information here.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, is complete disarmament enough, or does Saddam have to go no matter what? We'll get the latest from Iraq and from the White House also.
And also tonight, what's Plan B if the Turks refuse to let U.S. troops land there? We'll hear from the pentagon as well as NEWSNIGHT continues on a Monday on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We left things on Friday with much in flux, where Iraq was concerned.
Will the Iraqi start destroying the missiles the U.N. inspectors wanted destroyed?
Could the Turkish government win a vote to bring 10s of thousands of American troops into their country?
The answers, yes and no. So what on Friday was merely flux seems in tatters tonight. Tonight plans are being redrawn, deals remade.
And what of Saddam?
That's where we begin with CNN's Nic Robertson.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Sporting a Fedora and looking relaxed, President Saddam Hussein arrived for a meeting with top officials. Amidst the sumptuous splendor of the meeting, an unwritten message for the Iraqi audience, support for the leader from ministers just returned from the Arab Summit, where there were calls for him to step down. To the North of Baghdad, outside the al-Taji barracks, where six more of Iraq's Al Samoud 2 missiles were being destroyed, plenty of activity, but no pictures of destruction.
GEN. AMER AL-SA'ADI, PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: They are legitimate weapons that are not proscribed. That's why it hurts.
ROBERTSON: A warning also should the U.S. move towards war.
AL-SA'ADI: If it turns out at an early stage during this month that America is not going the legal way, then why should we continue?
ROBERTSON: In a Baghdad church efforts for peace, however, continue. A delegation of African-American religious leaders, the first such group to come to Baghdad, hopeful their heritage can bring understanding and peace.
REV. HERBERT DAUGHTRY, LORD'S PENTECOSTAL CHURCH: Once you start a war, it's going to leap the oceans, it's going to leap the mountains, and god knows where it will end. So this is why we appeal with all the emphasis we can command to the leaders of the world avert war.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): An appeal that may already be too late. Iraqi commanders talk of training for urban warfare, and Coalition aircraft are increasing their sorties and targeting in the Northern and Southern no-fly zones.
Nic Robertson, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: It's been a vexation for the White House that with a war approaching almost by the hour, it seems, the goal of making a diplomatic case for war seems already to be receding. Critics say that's because the administration has been unable to articulate what a war is really about, and opponents have latched on to that weakness. Is it disarmament?
Is it regime change?
Is it building democracy?
In fairness, it's probably all of the above. But the focus has been seen as shifting, and today it seemed, to our ear at least, that it took another turn.
So we turn once again to the White House. Our senior White House correspondent John King helps sort it all out.
Mr. King, good evening to you.
KING: Good evening to you Aaron.
Not so much a policy shift but of course yet another of one of the recurring cycle, if you will of shift in emphasis. It has been since day one of the Bush administration policy that Saddam Hussein must go. That is a point the administration does not like to emphasize around key votes at the United Nations because so many of the other members, especially on the Security Council, don't want any part of regime change.
The French, for example, saying yet again over the weekend and today they signed on to disarmament, not regime change. Even Tony Blair over the weekend says he can envision a military action that disarms Iraq but leaves Saddam Hussein in power. The White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer, today making clear President Bush has a very different view that if the troops go in Saddam Hussein will go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FLEISCHER: In the event that the president makes a decision that forces is used to disarm Saddam Hussein to accomplish disarmament, nobody should think, not even for a second, that military action could be possibly taken to disarm Saddam Hussein that would leave Saddam Hussein at the helm for him to rearm up later. No. That's not an option.
KING: Now, is there any way in the Bush White House's view that Saddam could stay? The answer is yes. But they think it's a one in a billion chance. That would be if Saddam in the next several days gave it all up. All the evidence of where the VX is, where the munition that's can carry chemical weapons are, where the sarin gas is, where every known Iraqi weapon is. White House officials say that simply is not going to happen in their view. They are preparing for war. As for the time table, they want a vote on that new resolution in the security Council one week from today, give or take a day or so, and by the end of next week the president could be making fateful decisions -- Aaron?
BROWN: I want to go back to this thing and one more for you. In listening to the White House briefing on Friday, I -- the way I heard it is that disarmament in and of itself is not enough. So I guess what I'm asking for, did I hear it wrong, did Mr. Fleischer misspeak or is there a nuance game that's being played above my head, at least?
KING: Well, what he says in other settings -- that's what he said. What he says in other settings and what the president and especially the vice president and the secretary of defense have said is disarmament by Saddam Hussein, they don't think is ever a realistic possibility. They do not think you can disarm Iraq with Saddam Hussein in power. So when they say they're going to disarm Iraq, what they mean is they are going to destroy all the weapons and remove its leader. They think that's the only way to bring about lasting disarmament. There are, of course, many in the world who disagree with that.
BROWN: Thank you, John. Our senior White House correspondent, John King, sorting through all of this.
On now to the military side as we mentioned, a lot of plans being reworked tonight. But so far, at least, the ships off the Turkish shore haven't turned around towards the Suez Canal. The hope remains that a new deal with Turkey can be struck. Until it is the contingencies are being looked at and elsewhere deployments and the call-ups, of course, go on.
From the Pentagon tonight CNN's Jamie McIntyre.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE (voice-over): U.S. B-52 bombers, which will fire air- launched cruise missiles on the opening night of the war have begun arriving in England, while 60,000 additional U.S. troops to serve as follow-on forces have received deployment orders, including the First Cavalry Division in Texas and the First Armored Division in Germany. It's evidence that while more than 20 U.S. transport ships cool their rudders in the Mediterranean, waiting to see if Turkey will have a change of heart, the Pentagon is moving ahead with plan b, to invade Iraq with or without Turkish support.
FLEISCHER: If the president of the United States makes the determination that force must be used to disarm Saddam Hussein, whatever route is taken, the ultimate military mission will remain successful.
MCINTYRE: Sources say the Pentagon decided weeks ago to send not just part but the entire 101st Airborne Division to Kuwait as a backup so the U.S. would not have to wait for the heavier Forth Infantry Division to either get into turkey or move to Kuwait.
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: The U.S. will go in with other means, lighter forces, to take down the targets in Northern Iraq, probably more paratrooper, air assault with helicopter techniques.
MCINTYRE: Under that option the U.S. will rely more on seizing forward bases in Iraq such as this old Iraqi air base near the Turkish border. And would not be able to move as many forces as quickly into the North.
GRANGE: It would be more risk involved. It may cause more casualties. And probably take longer.
MCINTYRE: Right now the Turkish parliament is saying no to an all-in-one package deal. But sources say the U.S. may press for Turkey to allow more modest, less provocative steps, such as basing of search and rescue crews and granting of overnight rights. Currently, plan, a, is for two U.S. aircraft carriers in the Eastern Mediterranean to send their planes into Northern Iraq by way of Turkey. But plan, b, is to move the carriers south into the Red Sea so the planes can overfly Saudi Arabia as was done in the 1991 Persian Gulf War.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: So Aaron, the paradox of Turkey's intransigence is that it may not delay the start of the war but in fact it may expedite it. Because if the Pentagon essentially writes off Turkey then it's got pretty much everything in place now to go whenever it wants. One caveat, if it wants to bring in more carrier-based planes to replace the ones that would have been based on the land in Turkey they could do that from the aircraft carrier Nimitz, but that's not due to arrive in the Gulf region until early April. Otherwise, they could go much sooner -- Aaron.
BROWN: This may be a better question to ask at the State Department or the White House, but I'll ask you, Jamie, anyway, have people there given up on the idea that the Turkish Parliament will reconsider the whole package in another vote?
MCINTYRE: They haven't given up on it, but they're not -- you know, they already have planned around it, essentially. But you know, even if they get a few things from Turkey like, for instance, over- flight rights or basing those search and rescue teams, that would be a help, and that possibly would be little enough not to be something that would require parliamently approval.
BROWN: And before you get away, there was an incident involving the North Koreans today and an American plane.
What can you tell us?
MCINTYRE: Quite surprising. The first time in 30 years that the North Koreans have done this. And they clearly planned it out ahead of time, according to the Pentagon. They stationed some planes right along the coast so that when a U.S. RC-135 surveillance plane which is like this one seen here. It basic -- it was flying in international airspace 150 miles of the coast was intercepted by 4 North Korean MiGs. They were armed. They were making gestures at the plane, according to an official who saw a videotape made by the U.S. crew, signaling the plane to either land or go away.
The U.S. ignored that. There was also a radar signature, an acquisition radar, not a targeting radar, we're told, that was used to try to threaten and intimidate the plane. The Pentagon was surprised that North Korea was able to get their MiGs this far out, have them trail the plane for 20 minutes, and then still get back, because, usually, they don't have that kind of range. It indicated this was a provocation that they'd clearly thought out and planned ahead of time.
BROWN: Jamie, thank you -- Jamie McIntyre on things military tonight.
Coming up on NEWSNIGHT: maintaining the watch at home. We'll talk with the new head of homeland security, if your homeland is Los Angeles. John Miller joins us in a moment.
This is NEWSNIGHT around the world.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We've spent a lot of time already this hour considering what might be learned from Khalid Shaikh Mohammed about where al Qaeda may have had plans or may still have plans to strike again and how.
Reportedly, too, he was captured with a list that authorities are calling a treasure trove of operatives scattered around the country, as in the United States, which is to say, what we have to do now is find out where they are. In Los Angeles, that is currently the job of John Miller, who once interviewed Osama bin Laden as a correspondent for ABC News and is now the LAPD's man in charge of homeland security.
Mr. Miller, it's nice to see you again.
JOHN MILLER, COMMANDING OFFICER, L.A. HOMELAND SECURITY BUREAU: Hey, Aaron. It's good to talk to you again.
BROWN: Tell me how LAPD has reorganized to become better at counterterrorism.
MILLER: Well, prior to the arrival of Chief Bratton here, the department's stance was that they had an anti-terrorist division and that they focused on counterterrorism investigations. Of course, they were partners with the FBI in a joint terrorist task force and have been since 1984.
But the chief's mandate is to strengthen that effort, to significantly expand it, also, so that, beyond the investigation and the intelligence-gathering, there is also an infrastructure within the LAPD that is going out to assess the over 500 potential terrorist targets in Los Angeles, develop playbooks for responses to different scenarios, whether or not that's a conventional explosive, a dirty bomb, an active shooter scenario, a chemical or bio incident.
So, we're really trying to go after all the possibilities in terms of prevention and preparedness. Other cities, particularly New York, which has taken the lead in this kind of effort, are doing so. And this is not a city that can be behind that curve.
BROWN: And do you have all the federal money you need to get that done? Or do you have any of the federal money you need to get that done? MILLER: No and no, meaning since the Homeland Security Bureau on the national level was set up under Tom Ridge, there have been a number of promises of massive federal dollars. Some of those numbers have been cut down in terms of what the police and fire and emergency response people would actually get.
But in the year and a half since September 11, we have seen very little, if any, of that money. We met with the No. 2 man from Ridge's department, Mr. England, today here in Los Angeles. We have congresspeople like Jane Harman fighting for that money, but we haven't seen it. And, of course, the needs are critical.
BROWN: What are the things that you think L.A. is best prepared for and the things that keep you up at night? It's a big area.
MILLER: Well, I think the things that keep me up at night are probably different from the things that keep most people up at night, because now I'm actually paid to worry about that. So, I am thinking of all the possibilities.
But the basic thing, Aaron, is, al Qaeda in particular has targeted the United States successfully on U.S. soil. They have targeted Los Angeles, the city of Los Angeles, prior. Ahmed Ressam, who was captured at the Canadian border around the time of the millennium, his target was Los Angeles International Airport.
I think if you look at the events of September 11, the World Trade Center had been a target before. They have a tendency or propensity to come back to targets. So I'm thinking about all of that. But I'm also thinking, every time we harden a target with more security, whether it was the federal government doing it with the embassies overseas or the Navy doing it after the bombing of the USS Cole with battleships and Navy bases here and abroad, they go by that target and they go on to a new target.
So, in Bali, you see them target a nightclub with little or no security, a nightclub street. In Mombasa, you see them target a tourist hotel and attempt to shoot down an airliner full of people. So...
BROWN: John, one of the problems with L.A., it would seem to me, is that there is -- there are a number of different police jurisdictions. Hollywood has the sheriff -- well, there's the sheriff's department. There's the police department. The fact that LAPD has reorganized doesn't mean the sheriff's department has and they control big chunks of the area.
MILLER: Well, that is nothing that was lost on myself or Chief Bratton. Prior to this, the LAPD was pretty much, in many ways, an isolationist organization, an island that kept to itself and didn't branch out to other people very much. I think we've changed all that quickly. I have had many meetings with the sheriff here, Lee Baca, who controls a very large force and a very large landscape.
But the bottom line, as you point out, is, if there were, God forbid, a September 11-level attack in the city of Los Angeles, with 9,000 cops, you couldn't handle that alone. You would need the entire sheriff's department with you. If it was on the sheriff's side of the fence, with his several thousand officers, he couldn't handle it alone. He would need the entire LAPD with them.
In New York City, with 40,000 cops, they were able to address September 11. But here, it would have to be a mutual aid effort. And we've spent every day, including today, helping to refine those plans for a joint response.
BROWN: John, it's good to talk to you. And it's nice to see you have honest work. Thank you.
MILLER: Well, it's good to have some. Thanks, Aaron.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: Thank you -- John Miller from Los Angeles tonight.
Still to come on NEWSNIGHT: the end of a worldwide manhunt and the beginning of a trial of a man accused of murdering a doctor who performs abortions -- that story and more as we continue on a Monday from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: And next on NEWSNIGHT: The accused killer of a doctor who performed abortions finally goes on trial.
Short break. Then we're right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: A few stories in the "World Roundup" tonight to get in.
We begin with the opening of a new U.S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya. It replaces the building that was bombed in 1998, the terrorist attack that killed 219 people there. Another new embassy will be dedicated tomorrow in the other country that was attacked in '98, Tanzania. Those attacks are also linked to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, now in custody.
Israeli troops today stormed a Palestinian refugee camp in Gaza. Troops arrested the co-founder of the militant group Hamas and destroyed his home. Eight Palestinians, including a pregnant woman, were killed.
And the ad executive who was helping the United States improve its image in the Muslim world is leaving. Charlotte Beers says she's leaving her post for health reasons. U.S. officials privately say that Ms. Beers never understood her target audience. Her series of TV ads portraying Muslim-Americans was eventually suspended when several Arab countries refused to air them.
On now to the case of James Kopp and something that troubled us today -- it was that someone described Kopp as an anti-abortion activist. That would suggest someone with principles, not, as prosecutors say, a man who murdered a doctor at his home in cold blood. Jury selection began today in a case that has taken years to get to trial.
Covering it for us: CNN's Jamie Colby.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE COLBY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): James Kopp was a man on the run, to Mexico, the United Kingdom, and eventually France after the sniper slaying of Dr. Barnett Slepian in 1998.
Slepian was a popular obstetrician and gynecologist who sometimes performed abortions at a Buffalo clinic. His wife and four sons were home when a .30-caliber bullet fired from a rifle in the woods behind the house pierced a window and then Slepian's back. A Nashville, Tennessee, pawn shop had sold the rifle to a man matching Kopp's description. The FBI says his DNA matched hair fibers on a hat buried with the weapon.
FRANK CLARK, ERIE COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: A warrant for Kopp's arrest has issued from the local criminal court.
COLBY: Placed on the FBI's 10-most-wanted list in 1999, Kopp remained on the lam for two years. The FBI caught Kopp in France after tracking e-mails of two friends sending him money from the U.S.
DENISE O'DONNELL, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: I'm gratified today that the French police have made an arrest of James Charles Kopp.
COLBY: Kopp was extradited to New York last year, after the U.S. promised France he would not face the death penalty. Kopp says he is innocent of any crime, though "The Buffalo News" says he told them in a jailhouse interview he targeted Slepian to stop him from performing abortions, saying in the article -- quote -- "The truth is not that I regret shooting Dr. Slepian. I regret that he died."
Buffalo has been the site of anti-abortion protests for years. And Kopp has his supporters.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Someone had to stop Barnett Slepian from killing any more babies.
COLBY: Jurors are filling out questionnaires gauging their views on abortion and their knowledge of the highly publicized case.
(on camera): Jury selection is expected to take two weeks; the trial, a month. If Kopp is convicted, he'll face 25 years to life in prison.
Jamie Colby, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: We'll take a short break. Then we'll check morning papers from around the country and around the world.
This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We'll check the morning papers in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: OK. Here we go, a chance -- well, I hope it goes better than that, don't I? A chance to check tomorrow's papers from around the country and around the world. These are actually the front pages of newspapers in various cities around the country, in case you haven't figured that out yet.
"San Francisco Chronicle" already has a front page out: "Chief on Medical Leave." The chief was indicted, the chief of police was indicted for covering up allegations that other police officers beat somebody up. And then down in the corner here: "Pakistanis Mad at U.S. Getting Suspect." Apparently, there is some disagreement among Pakistanis about whether they should be helping the United States.
"Boston Herald": "On the Mark" -- nine of 10 seniors passed the statewide test in the Boston area. So that's good news there. And up in the corner -- why this is a front-page story -- well, you know why it's a front-page story -- "Hockey Star Confirms That He and Tennis Beauty Anna Kournikova Were Married, Then Quickly Divorced." Any story involving Anna Kournikova automatically gets front-page treatment. It is a rule of American journalism.
"USA Today," if you're traveling tomorrow -- and I can -- there we go. "Yankees, Stay Home" is the cover story. And they actually call it the cover story. "Ugly sentiments sting American tourists as Europeans cite frustrations with U.S. policy," big story in "USA Today."
Show me the picture. This we got from Dusseldorf, Germany. This will be in newspapers everywhere. This is a carnival celebration and President Bush and President Saddam Hussein together again, as you've never seen them before.
Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT: A world away, but it's the same hopes and fears. We'll visit a young couple just starting married life on the edge of a possible war zone -- segment seven after this break.
This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Finally tonight, we've been subjected to a lot of love stories lately, the reality TV kind of love story. Will Zora stick it out when she finally realizes that "Joe Millionaire" is really Joe construction worker? Who will "The Bachelorette" pick from her harem of hunks, Ryan or Charlie? They all seem short on the romance and the reality, don't they?
But our final story tonight has plenty of both: the romance of Adil (ph) and Salan (ph) and the reality of war breaking out right next-door.
Photographer David Turnley was a guest at their wedding, a Kurdish wedding.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Adil Turan (ph). I live in a village called Zuran (ph) in Turkey, near Iraq. I am 18 years old. Today is my wedding ceremony.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am 16. I met my husband for the first time one month ago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love my bride at first sight. We want to have two children and to live in peace. We are Kurdish people, born with our traditions and our own language. But we live under the Turkish flag.
My family's ancestors have been nomads. In our tradition, the groom's father asks the bride's father for permission for the son to take her hand in marriage. The bride's father asks for money, which will be used for things they'll need in the new home.
Money isn't important for us, but I want my children to be well educated, so that they can have good jobs.
We begin a three-day wedding ceremony. When she arrives, the groom's father offers a gift. As a nomad, I promised her a sheep. This is a tradition of our nomadic people.
You hear through the news that America has been bringing troops and weapons to the region for the last three months. We don't think they will return home until there has been a war. We take the bride and groom to the bedroom, where they will become a married couple. Her face is covered by a veil. When the groom removes her veil, we celebrate their being a husband and wife.
We don't want war. War will harm all of us. We have had a hard time surviving. We cannot also endure a war. We are especially afraid of chemical weapons. It will be a disaster. I dream for us to live happily together.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to live in happiness, for my family to live a nice life.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: That's the work and the photographs of David Turnley, who not for nothing won a Pulitzer.
It's good to have you with us. We'll see you tomorrow at 10:00.
Good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.
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Parliament Votes Against U.S. Troops Staging on Turkish Soil; North Korean MiGs Intercept RC-135 Surveillance Plane>
Aired March 3, 2003 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: And good evening again, everyone. Democracy can be a messy thing. A dictatorship, if you think of it, is so much neater. In a dictatorship if you want something, you just do it. You want a new palace, you order it built. You wan that country over there, you just go seize it.
Democracy, however, is messier. The Turkish Parliament seems to be proving the point. And it's an interesting problem. On the one hand, the United States is promising lots of money and some of the spoils of war. For a country, Turkey, with its economy in the tank, that's a pretty inviting deal to leadership. On the other hand, something like 90 percent of the Turks think basing Americans on their soil to launch a war against Iraq is not such a great thing.
Ninety percent is a lot. There are very few issues in American life, including probably the Bill of Rights, that would get 90 percent support. That being the case, it would have been a shocker if the Turks had gone along with the U.S. plan, feeling as they do.
But before this is over, don't you have a feeling that the Turkish Parliament will do what the administration is counting on it to do? Those Parliamentarians will say that leadership sometimes requires that popular will be ignored, that the greater good sometimes escapes the man and woman on the street.
And that's true. Sometimes it does. We just wish the Turks were making their decision on the power of our argument rather than on the power of the people who are writing the check.
We move on to the news of the day, and we begin with a big development in the war on terror the capture of a top al Qaeda operative. David Ensor has the latest on that. So, David, start us off with a headline, please.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, the headline today is the news about just how big a victory that was on Saturday when Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was seized. They not only got the guy, the operational commander of al Qaeda, they got his laptop, they got his cell phones, they got his notes.
And included in those, according to sources, is a lot of information, lists of al Qaeda operatives, including some that are suspected to be inside the United States.
BROWN: David, thank you. Back to you at the top tonight.
A look now at the trail that led to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed. Ash-har Quraishi is on the video phone from Islamabad. A headline from you tonight.
ASH-HAR QURAISHI, CNN ISLAMABAD BUREAU CHIEF: Well, Aaron, it's been a long road in the hunt for Khalid Shaikh Mohammed here in Pakistan. Some violent encounters on the way. The details just becoming aware to us as to how this raid went down and the hiccups that were involved -- Aaron.
BROWN: Thank you.
To the White House next, the latest challenges involving Iraq, and there are a number. Senior White House Correspondent John King has the duty. John, a headline.
JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, reaching back to the lexicon of the first Gulf War, the White House said today it is the mother of all distractions, the fact that Iraq is destroying some of its Al Samoud 2 missiles. The White House says no one should be fooled, but about a week before the key vote in the U.N. Security Council the administration is still short the votes -- Aaron.
BROWN: John, thank you.
And so what now for the war plans after the decision this weekend by the Turkish Parliament? Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. Jamie, the headline.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, the U.S. military needed a positive answer from Turkey two weeks ago. They may yet get it, but already the military has made other plans. We'll tell you about that.
BROWN: Thank you, Jamie. Back to you and the rest shortly.
Also coming up tonight on NEWSNIGHT, this weekend's capture brings some relief, but also countless questions. Questions about terror plots that could be in the making here in the United States. We'll talk with John Miller, who's in charge of keeping Los Angeles safe from terror.
Also tonight, he spent years as a fugitive. Today jury selection began in the murder trial of James Kopp, the man accused of killing a doctor for the sole reason the doctor performed abortions.
And a story of love at first sight and a wedding in the shadow of war. A Kurdish love story is "Segment 7" tonight. All of that in the hour ahead.
We begin with Khalid Shaikh Mohammed. By any standard, his capture over the weekend was a victory for the good guys, but a challenge as well. What was he planning? What does he know? Can he be made to talk? There is a tremendous amount to be learned from the man and a burning necessity to learn it quickly. So a challenge it is. But for a change, the welcome kind. We start with CNN's David Ensor.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR (voice-over): Among the information seized at the house where the al Qaeda operations chief was captured, U.S. sources tell CNN, is a treasure trove on al Qaeda, including the names of suspected al Qaeda operatives, some of them believed to be in cities in the United States.
Sources say Washington, D.C. is among the cities, the information suggests, may contain al Qaeda personnel. U.S. officials have said they have evidence Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was trying recently to organize another attack against the United States.
U.S. intelligence officials are declining comment on the information gleaned during the raid, but other U.S. sources say FBI agents are speeding to try to track down the suspected operatives named in it, hoping to stop any imminent attack.
MICHAEL CHERTOFF, ASST. ATTORNEY GENERAL: We are obviously always mindful of the need to be vigilant and move as quickly as possible to frustrate anything that's ongoing in terms of potential terrorist threats.
ENSOR: Mohammed, meantime, is under intense interrogation at an undisclosed location by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency. Officials say all appropriate pressure will be used in an effort to stop any attacks the new prisoner may know of.
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The standard for any type of interrogation of some body in American custody is to be humane and to follow all international laws and accords dealing with this type subject. That is precisely what has been happening and exactly what will happen.
ENSOR: Although the White House expressed warm gratitude to Pakistan's President Musharraf, some U.S. officials privately expressed dismay that Pakistani officials made news of the seizure public so quickly. U.S. officials would have liked more time to try to roll up al Qaeda cells before the word got to them that their operations chief was an in enemy hands.
PETER BERGER, TERRORISM ANALYST: It's quite possible that people may panic and try and push something forward because they're worried he may talk. Most of the al Qaeda leadership have eventually talked. The question is really time. You know, time is of the essence.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR: Time is of the essence, and though U.S. officials express confidence that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed can in time be convinced to cooperate with his interrogators let's face it, Aaron, they're in a hurry.
BROWN: Well, they must assume he knows everything up to and perhaps including the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden. Fair enough? ENSOR: They believe he may, yes.
BROWN: And do we know where he is being held?
ENSOR: No. Neither he nor Abu Zubaydah nor Ramzi Binalshibh, nor any of the senior al Qaeda people that have been nabbed and are being kept by the CIA in undisclosed locations overseas.
The goal is to put them where they're out of the reach of the protections of American jurisprudence and at the same time have nobody know where they are so that doesn't put pressure on the country, the host country that's involved. That's the way they're handling these people.
BROWN: And do we know on the other two how truthful they've been? It may help us gauge how valuable ultimately Mohammed is.
ENSOR: From what I've heard Abu Zubaydah lied a good deal at the beginning. But they are patiently going back to him, pointing out where they know he's lied, cross-referencing it with other things. And they say now that he and all the other prisoners are providing useful intelligence, at least to some degree or another.
BROWN: And everything we know so far about Mohammed, this is a question, we know because the government has looked at his computer as opposed to gotten answers directly from him?
ENSOR: I believe that's right. There are some reports he may be talking. There's even a report that he's talking but all he's doing is reciting the Quaran. There's nothing official, nothing confirmed from officials telling me that he's being cooperative at this point.
BROWN: OK. David, thank you. David Ensor on a very important story, of which we have more.
This is by no means Khalid Shaikh Mohammed's first brush with capture. He's dodged a few. He's been at the top of wanted lists and eluding authorities for years, long before 9/11, and a number of times in the months that followed. Here again, CNN's Ash-har Quraishi.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
QURAISHI (voice-over): September 11, 2002 -- Pakistani police thought they were going to capture Khalid Shaikh Mohammed in the Southern port city of Karachi. The early morning raid turns into a firefight when police enter the apartment complex and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed gets away.
When the shooting stops, security forces had captured another key al Qaeda operative, Ramzi Binalshibh. Investigators follow intelligence leads to Quetta, in the Southwestern province of Balochistan. In a raid on February 14, authorities capture an al Qaeda operative reported to be an Egyptian. Khalid Shaikh Mohammed slips through the dragnet yet again.
Using information gathered from the operative nabbed in Quetta, authorities track Khalid Shaikh Mohammed to Rawalpindi, just 9 miles form Pakistan's capital. He is, authorities soon learn, staying in the home of Ahmed Abdul Qadoos, a member of Pakistan's largest religious political party, the Jemaat Islami.
At 3 a.m. Saturday, in a jointly planned operation, more than two dozen American and Pakistani security agents surround Qadoos' house. Agents enter the home, herding the women and children into a small room.
QUDISA, AHMED ABDUL QADOOS' SISTER: They just banged open the doors, broke the locks and they pushed my habi (ph), my sister-in-law, and the kids into a room, and they had the rifle or a Kalashnikov held to their head and they were told to sit quietly. And my brother, he went out, and they took him away.
QURAISHI: Finally overpowering their man, the security forces take Mohammed into custody, along with Qadoos and another suspected al Qaeda operative described as a Somali.
SHEIKH BASHID AHMED, PAKISTANI INFO MINISTER: The agencies were looking for him for a long time, but he always escaped. And today he was caught early morning and he was arrested.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QURAISHI: Here U.S. intelligence officials and highly placed Pakistani sources tell us that Mohammed was handed over to U.S. officials within hours of that raid and was transported out of the country. Now, despite conflicting public claims by the Pakistani administration, CNN sources in Washington and Islamabad say that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed is no longer here in Pakistan -- Aaron.
BROWN: Ash-har, thank you very much. The view from Pakistan.
More now on the interrogation of this man. It is an axiom in our business that day-old news is only slightly better than day-old fish. That goes double, triple, 10, 000 fold for day-old intelligence. The stakes, obviously, could hardly be higher. So it's obvious interrogators want to know all they can, as quickly as they can, from Khalid Shaikh Mohammed.
Your gut says nothing should be spared, no tool untried in the effort, in other words, torture if it works. Your head wonders if that's, in fact, the best way of going about it for a whole lot of reasons, including would it even work. We're joined from Washington tonight by retired Colonel Gerald York, former chief of operations for the Defense Intelligence Agency.
Sir, nice to have you with us tonight.
Tell me what you think is happening to Mr. Mohammed right now.
COL. GERALD YORK, U.S. ARMY (RET.): I think that at this particular point they're still trying to keep him disoriented, obviously going in that early in the morning, getting him out of a sound sleep. He's going to be somewhat disoriented as long as they can keep him disoriented and talking, and from what everyone has said he seems to be talking, saying something.
BROWN: How does disorientation facilitate getting him to answer questions?
YORK: Well, if he's disoriented and as long as they can keep him off guard and disoriented, then that helps in the questioning that he may give up something or he may say something that he normally would not if he was in control of himself.
BROWN: Tell me the line between appropriate interrogation technique and inappropriate, torture.
YORK: Well, I think there is a line there, and I think when you get into the torture that's something that the U.S. does not condone nor participate in.
You get individuals who may talk or tell you things that you may want to hear just to stop the torture. What you want to do is it's a mind game. What you want to do is get inside that individual's mind and kind of control that individual. And you can do it through various things that's not torture. Sleep deprivation, things like this, that is not physical or mental torture but does kind of, like I said before, keep the individual disoriented so that you get them to talk and you get them to a point where their guard is down and hopefully they say something that is useful to you.
BROWN: Drugs appropriate and helpful here?
YORK: I've seen that discussed in the press recently, about whether the use of drugs. A lot depends on the individual.
I think in a case like, this they're going to be looking at all kinds of options. But first they're going to want to see if just talking with the individual will work.
BROWN: So you think a guy at this level might be convinced to talk with a cup of coffee and a warm voice?
YORK: Probably not, although I think from what we've seen from Afghanistan some of the top individuals there that were captured have talked, have given up information, not necessarily immediately.
And that's what you want. You want, especially in a case like this, where the information that the individual has is of such importance that you need to get it as quickly as possible -- but here other things were captured as well that may give leads and may give us more clues than what the individual is saying of what's going to happen.
BROWN: Is a person generally -- we can't know specifically about this person -- is a person generally more vulnerable in the first 48 hours or the second 48 hours?
YORK: Usually in the first 24 to 48 hours, because his whole world has been changed, there's a fear factor, he doesn't know what to expect, he may or may not know exactly who has possession of him at the time. He may be very fearful.
After the 48 hours, as you get on longer into the session, he will know more what to expect, who has him, and exactly what limits they'll go to get the information.
BROWN: Many of these al Qaeda people were, we believe at least, prepared to be martyred. Some clearly were on 9/11. Is that a factor in how they are dealt with now?
YORK: Well, I think when they're planning to be a martyr they're doing it on their terms. A situation like this, they're not in control, someone else is in control. They can still be a martyr, but it's at someone else's choosing, not their own. And psychologically, that has -- that has some play.
BROWN: Let me ask you one more thing. I mean, given that they want to know things quickly her,e for obvious reasons, would it be better if the interrogation were done by somebody who was not an American, who doesn't have to play by the same rules, and let's just get what the guy has and be done with it?
YORK: Well, all of that has to be taken into consideration.
Obviously, there's other countries that are interested in this individual as well as the United States. And as we know, not every one plays by the same rules that we play by. That's something that has to be weighed and the options looked at very closely, because you don't want to, one, cause damage to other folks that may be captured as well.
If they know that they're going to be taken care of and treated well, that may play as well. These individuals are probably taught counterinterrogation techniques. So you have to look at that. It's really a mind game.
BROWN: It is that. Colonel York, good to talk to you tonight. Thank you.
YORK: Good to talk with you. Thank you.
BROWN: A lot of good information here.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, is complete disarmament enough, or does Saddam have to go no matter what? We'll get the latest from Iraq and from the White House also.
And also tonight, what's Plan B if the Turks refuse to let U.S. troops land there? We'll hear from the pentagon as well as NEWSNIGHT continues on a Monday on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We left things on Friday with much in flux, where Iraq was concerned.
Will the Iraqi start destroying the missiles the U.N. inspectors wanted destroyed?
Could the Turkish government win a vote to bring 10s of thousands of American troops into their country?
The answers, yes and no. So what on Friday was merely flux seems in tatters tonight. Tonight plans are being redrawn, deals remade.
And what of Saddam?
That's where we begin with CNN's Nic Robertson.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Sporting a Fedora and looking relaxed, President Saddam Hussein arrived for a meeting with top officials. Amidst the sumptuous splendor of the meeting, an unwritten message for the Iraqi audience, support for the leader from ministers just returned from the Arab Summit, where there were calls for him to step down. To the North of Baghdad, outside the al-Taji barracks, where six more of Iraq's Al Samoud 2 missiles were being destroyed, plenty of activity, but no pictures of destruction.
GEN. AMER AL-SA'ADI, PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: They are legitimate weapons that are not proscribed. That's why it hurts.
ROBERTSON: A warning also should the U.S. move towards war.
AL-SA'ADI: If it turns out at an early stage during this month that America is not going the legal way, then why should we continue?
ROBERTSON: In a Baghdad church efforts for peace, however, continue. A delegation of African-American religious leaders, the first such group to come to Baghdad, hopeful their heritage can bring understanding and peace.
REV. HERBERT DAUGHTRY, LORD'S PENTECOSTAL CHURCH: Once you start a war, it's going to leap the oceans, it's going to leap the mountains, and god knows where it will end. So this is why we appeal with all the emphasis we can command to the leaders of the world avert war.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): An appeal that may already be too late. Iraqi commanders talk of training for urban warfare, and Coalition aircraft are increasing their sorties and targeting in the Northern and Southern no-fly zones.
Nic Robertson, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: It's been a vexation for the White House that with a war approaching almost by the hour, it seems, the goal of making a diplomatic case for war seems already to be receding. Critics say that's because the administration has been unable to articulate what a war is really about, and opponents have latched on to that weakness. Is it disarmament?
Is it regime change?
Is it building democracy?
In fairness, it's probably all of the above. But the focus has been seen as shifting, and today it seemed, to our ear at least, that it took another turn.
So we turn once again to the White House. Our senior White House correspondent John King helps sort it all out.
Mr. King, good evening to you.
KING: Good evening to you Aaron.
Not so much a policy shift but of course yet another of one of the recurring cycle, if you will of shift in emphasis. It has been since day one of the Bush administration policy that Saddam Hussein must go. That is a point the administration does not like to emphasize around key votes at the United Nations because so many of the other members, especially on the Security Council, don't want any part of regime change.
The French, for example, saying yet again over the weekend and today they signed on to disarmament, not regime change. Even Tony Blair over the weekend says he can envision a military action that disarms Iraq but leaves Saddam Hussein in power. The White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer, today making clear President Bush has a very different view that if the troops go in Saddam Hussein will go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FLEISCHER: In the event that the president makes a decision that forces is used to disarm Saddam Hussein to accomplish disarmament, nobody should think, not even for a second, that military action could be possibly taken to disarm Saddam Hussein that would leave Saddam Hussein at the helm for him to rearm up later. No. That's not an option.
KING: Now, is there any way in the Bush White House's view that Saddam could stay? The answer is yes. But they think it's a one in a billion chance. That would be if Saddam in the next several days gave it all up. All the evidence of where the VX is, where the munition that's can carry chemical weapons are, where the sarin gas is, where every known Iraqi weapon is. White House officials say that simply is not going to happen in their view. They are preparing for war. As for the time table, they want a vote on that new resolution in the security Council one week from today, give or take a day or so, and by the end of next week the president could be making fateful decisions -- Aaron?
BROWN: I want to go back to this thing and one more for you. In listening to the White House briefing on Friday, I -- the way I heard it is that disarmament in and of itself is not enough. So I guess what I'm asking for, did I hear it wrong, did Mr. Fleischer misspeak or is there a nuance game that's being played above my head, at least?
KING: Well, what he says in other settings -- that's what he said. What he says in other settings and what the president and especially the vice president and the secretary of defense have said is disarmament by Saddam Hussein, they don't think is ever a realistic possibility. They do not think you can disarm Iraq with Saddam Hussein in power. So when they say they're going to disarm Iraq, what they mean is they are going to destroy all the weapons and remove its leader. They think that's the only way to bring about lasting disarmament. There are, of course, many in the world who disagree with that.
BROWN: Thank you, John. Our senior White House correspondent, John King, sorting through all of this.
On now to the military side as we mentioned, a lot of plans being reworked tonight. But so far, at least, the ships off the Turkish shore haven't turned around towards the Suez Canal. The hope remains that a new deal with Turkey can be struck. Until it is the contingencies are being looked at and elsewhere deployments and the call-ups, of course, go on.
From the Pentagon tonight CNN's Jamie McIntyre.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE (voice-over): U.S. B-52 bombers, which will fire air- launched cruise missiles on the opening night of the war have begun arriving in England, while 60,000 additional U.S. troops to serve as follow-on forces have received deployment orders, including the First Cavalry Division in Texas and the First Armored Division in Germany. It's evidence that while more than 20 U.S. transport ships cool their rudders in the Mediterranean, waiting to see if Turkey will have a change of heart, the Pentagon is moving ahead with plan b, to invade Iraq with or without Turkish support.
FLEISCHER: If the president of the United States makes the determination that force must be used to disarm Saddam Hussein, whatever route is taken, the ultimate military mission will remain successful.
MCINTYRE: Sources say the Pentagon decided weeks ago to send not just part but the entire 101st Airborne Division to Kuwait as a backup so the U.S. would not have to wait for the heavier Forth Infantry Division to either get into turkey or move to Kuwait.
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: The U.S. will go in with other means, lighter forces, to take down the targets in Northern Iraq, probably more paratrooper, air assault with helicopter techniques.
MCINTYRE: Under that option the U.S. will rely more on seizing forward bases in Iraq such as this old Iraqi air base near the Turkish border. And would not be able to move as many forces as quickly into the North.
GRANGE: It would be more risk involved. It may cause more casualties. And probably take longer.
MCINTYRE: Right now the Turkish parliament is saying no to an all-in-one package deal. But sources say the U.S. may press for Turkey to allow more modest, less provocative steps, such as basing of search and rescue crews and granting of overnight rights. Currently, plan, a, is for two U.S. aircraft carriers in the Eastern Mediterranean to send their planes into Northern Iraq by way of Turkey. But plan, b, is to move the carriers south into the Red Sea so the planes can overfly Saudi Arabia as was done in the 1991 Persian Gulf War.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: So Aaron, the paradox of Turkey's intransigence is that it may not delay the start of the war but in fact it may expedite it. Because if the Pentagon essentially writes off Turkey then it's got pretty much everything in place now to go whenever it wants. One caveat, if it wants to bring in more carrier-based planes to replace the ones that would have been based on the land in Turkey they could do that from the aircraft carrier Nimitz, but that's not due to arrive in the Gulf region until early April. Otherwise, they could go much sooner -- Aaron.
BROWN: This may be a better question to ask at the State Department or the White House, but I'll ask you, Jamie, anyway, have people there given up on the idea that the Turkish Parliament will reconsider the whole package in another vote?
MCINTYRE: They haven't given up on it, but they're not -- you know, they already have planned around it, essentially. But you know, even if they get a few things from Turkey like, for instance, over- flight rights or basing those search and rescue teams, that would be a help, and that possibly would be little enough not to be something that would require parliamently approval.
BROWN: And before you get away, there was an incident involving the North Koreans today and an American plane.
What can you tell us?
MCINTYRE: Quite surprising. The first time in 30 years that the North Koreans have done this. And they clearly planned it out ahead of time, according to the Pentagon. They stationed some planes right along the coast so that when a U.S. RC-135 surveillance plane which is like this one seen here. It basic -- it was flying in international airspace 150 miles of the coast was intercepted by 4 North Korean MiGs. They were armed. They were making gestures at the plane, according to an official who saw a videotape made by the U.S. crew, signaling the plane to either land or go away.
The U.S. ignored that. There was also a radar signature, an acquisition radar, not a targeting radar, we're told, that was used to try to threaten and intimidate the plane. The Pentagon was surprised that North Korea was able to get their MiGs this far out, have them trail the plane for 20 minutes, and then still get back, because, usually, they don't have that kind of range. It indicated this was a provocation that they'd clearly thought out and planned ahead of time.
BROWN: Jamie, thank you -- Jamie McIntyre on things military tonight.
Coming up on NEWSNIGHT: maintaining the watch at home. We'll talk with the new head of homeland security, if your homeland is Los Angeles. John Miller joins us in a moment.
This is NEWSNIGHT around the world.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We've spent a lot of time already this hour considering what might be learned from Khalid Shaikh Mohammed about where al Qaeda may have had plans or may still have plans to strike again and how.
Reportedly, too, he was captured with a list that authorities are calling a treasure trove of operatives scattered around the country, as in the United States, which is to say, what we have to do now is find out where they are. In Los Angeles, that is currently the job of John Miller, who once interviewed Osama bin Laden as a correspondent for ABC News and is now the LAPD's man in charge of homeland security.
Mr. Miller, it's nice to see you again.
JOHN MILLER, COMMANDING OFFICER, L.A. HOMELAND SECURITY BUREAU: Hey, Aaron. It's good to talk to you again.
BROWN: Tell me how LAPD has reorganized to become better at counterterrorism.
MILLER: Well, prior to the arrival of Chief Bratton here, the department's stance was that they had an anti-terrorist division and that they focused on counterterrorism investigations. Of course, they were partners with the FBI in a joint terrorist task force and have been since 1984.
But the chief's mandate is to strengthen that effort, to significantly expand it, also, so that, beyond the investigation and the intelligence-gathering, there is also an infrastructure within the LAPD that is going out to assess the over 500 potential terrorist targets in Los Angeles, develop playbooks for responses to different scenarios, whether or not that's a conventional explosive, a dirty bomb, an active shooter scenario, a chemical or bio incident.
So, we're really trying to go after all the possibilities in terms of prevention and preparedness. Other cities, particularly New York, which has taken the lead in this kind of effort, are doing so. And this is not a city that can be behind that curve.
BROWN: And do you have all the federal money you need to get that done? Or do you have any of the federal money you need to get that done? MILLER: No and no, meaning since the Homeland Security Bureau on the national level was set up under Tom Ridge, there have been a number of promises of massive federal dollars. Some of those numbers have been cut down in terms of what the police and fire and emergency response people would actually get.
But in the year and a half since September 11, we have seen very little, if any, of that money. We met with the No. 2 man from Ridge's department, Mr. England, today here in Los Angeles. We have congresspeople like Jane Harman fighting for that money, but we haven't seen it. And, of course, the needs are critical.
BROWN: What are the things that you think L.A. is best prepared for and the things that keep you up at night? It's a big area.
MILLER: Well, I think the things that keep me up at night are probably different from the things that keep most people up at night, because now I'm actually paid to worry about that. So, I am thinking of all the possibilities.
But the basic thing, Aaron, is, al Qaeda in particular has targeted the United States successfully on U.S. soil. They have targeted Los Angeles, the city of Los Angeles, prior. Ahmed Ressam, who was captured at the Canadian border around the time of the millennium, his target was Los Angeles International Airport.
I think if you look at the events of September 11, the World Trade Center had been a target before. They have a tendency or propensity to come back to targets. So I'm thinking about all of that. But I'm also thinking, every time we harden a target with more security, whether it was the federal government doing it with the embassies overseas or the Navy doing it after the bombing of the USS Cole with battleships and Navy bases here and abroad, they go by that target and they go on to a new target.
So, in Bali, you see them target a nightclub with little or no security, a nightclub street. In Mombasa, you see them target a tourist hotel and attempt to shoot down an airliner full of people. So...
BROWN: John, one of the problems with L.A., it would seem to me, is that there is -- there are a number of different police jurisdictions. Hollywood has the sheriff -- well, there's the sheriff's department. There's the police department. The fact that LAPD has reorganized doesn't mean the sheriff's department has and they control big chunks of the area.
MILLER: Well, that is nothing that was lost on myself or Chief Bratton. Prior to this, the LAPD was pretty much, in many ways, an isolationist organization, an island that kept to itself and didn't branch out to other people very much. I think we've changed all that quickly. I have had many meetings with the sheriff here, Lee Baca, who controls a very large force and a very large landscape.
But the bottom line, as you point out, is, if there were, God forbid, a September 11-level attack in the city of Los Angeles, with 9,000 cops, you couldn't handle that alone. You would need the entire sheriff's department with you. If it was on the sheriff's side of the fence, with his several thousand officers, he couldn't handle it alone. He would need the entire LAPD with them.
In New York City, with 40,000 cops, they were able to address September 11. But here, it would have to be a mutual aid effort. And we've spent every day, including today, helping to refine those plans for a joint response.
BROWN: John, it's good to talk to you. And it's nice to see you have honest work. Thank you.
MILLER: Well, it's good to have some. Thanks, Aaron.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: Thank you -- John Miller from Los Angeles tonight.
Still to come on NEWSNIGHT: the end of a worldwide manhunt and the beginning of a trial of a man accused of murdering a doctor who performs abortions -- that story and more as we continue on a Monday from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: And next on NEWSNIGHT: The accused killer of a doctor who performed abortions finally goes on trial.
Short break. Then we're right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: A few stories in the "World Roundup" tonight to get in.
We begin with the opening of a new U.S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya. It replaces the building that was bombed in 1998, the terrorist attack that killed 219 people there. Another new embassy will be dedicated tomorrow in the other country that was attacked in '98, Tanzania. Those attacks are also linked to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, now in custody.
Israeli troops today stormed a Palestinian refugee camp in Gaza. Troops arrested the co-founder of the militant group Hamas and destroyed his home. Eight Palestinians, including a pregnant woman, were killed.
And the ad executive who was helping the United States improve its image in the Muslim world is leaving. Charlotte Beers says she's leaving her post for health reasons. U.S. officials privately say that Ms. Beers never understood her target audience. Her series of TV ads portraying Muslim-Americans was eventually suspended when several Arab countries refused to air them.
On now to the case of James Kopp and something that troubled us today -- it was that someone described Kopp as an anti-abortion activist. That would suggest someone with principles, not, as prosecutors say, a man who murdered a doctor at his home in cold blood. Jury selection began today in a case that has taken years to get to trial.
Covering it for us: CNN's Jamie Colby.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE COLBY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): James Kopp was a man on the run, to Mexico, the United Kingdom, and eventually France after the sniper slaying of Dr. Barnett Slepian in 1998.
Slepian was a popular obstetrician and gynecologist who sometimes performed abortions at a Buffalo clinic. His wife and four sons were home when a .30-caliber bullet fired from a rifle in the woods behind the house pierced a window and then Slepian's back. A Nashville, Tennessee, pawn shop had sold the rifle to a man matching Kopp's description. The FBI says his DNA matched hair fibers on a hat buried with the weapon.
FRANK CLARK, ERIE COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: A warrant for Kopp's arrest has issued from the local criminal court.
COLBY: Placed on the FBI's 10-most-wanted list in 1999, Kopp remained on the lam for two years. The FBI caught Kopp in France after tracking e-mails of two friends sending him money from the U.S.
DENISE O'DONNELL, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: I'm gratified today that the French police have made an arrest of James Charles Kopp.
COLBY: Kopp was extradited to New York last year, after the U.S. promised France he would not face the death penalty. Kopp says he is innocent of any crime, though "The Buffalo News" says he told them in a jailhouse interview he targeted Slepian to stop him from performing abortions, saying in the article -- quote -- "The truth is not that I regret shooting Dr. Slepian. I regret that he died."
Buffalo has been the site of anti-abortion protests for years. And Kopp has his supporters.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Someone had to stop Barnett Slepian from killing any more babies.
COLBY: Jurors are filling out questionnaires gauging their views on abortion and their knowledge of the highly publicized case.
(on camera): Jury selection is expected to take two weeks; the trial, a month. If Kopp is convicted, he'll face 25 years to life in prison.
Jamie Colby, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: We'll take a short break. Then we'll check morning papers from around the country and around the world.
This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We'll check the morning papers in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: OK. Here we go, a chance -- well, I hope it goes better than that, don't I? A chance to check tomorrow's papers from around the country and around the world. These are actually the front pages of newspapers in various cities around the country, in case you haven't figured that out yet.
"San Francisco Chronicle" already has a front page out: "Chief on Medical Leave." The chief was indicted, the chief of police was indicted for covering up allegations that other police officers beat somebody up. And then down in the corner here: "Pakistanis Mad at U.S. Getting Suspect." Apparently, there is some disagreement among Pakistanis about whether they should be helping the United States.
"Boston Herald": "On the Mark" -- nine of 10 seniors passed the statewide test in the Boston area. So that's good news there. And up in the corner -- why this is a front-page story -- well, you know why it's a front-page story -- "Hockey Star Confirms That He and Tennis Beauty Anna Kournikova Were Married, Then Quickly Divorced." Any story involving Anna Kournikova automatically gets front-page treatment. It is a rule of American journalism.
"USA Today," if you're traveling tomorrow -- and I can -- there we go. "Yankees, Stay Home" is the cover story. And they actually call it the cover story. "Ugly sentiments sting American tourists as Europeans cite frustrations with U.S. policy," big story in "USA Today."
Show me the picture. This we got from Dusseldorf, Germany. This will be in newspapers everywhere. This is a carnival celebration and President Bush and President Saddam Hussein together again, as you've never seen them before.
Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT: A world away, but it's the same hopes and fears. We'll visit a young couple just starting married life on the edge of a possible war zone -- segment seven after this break.
This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Finally tonight, we've been subjected to a lot of love stories lately, the reality TV kind of love story. Will Zora stick it out when she finally realizes that "Joe Millionaire" is really Joe construction worker? Who will "The Bachelorette" pick from her harem of hunks, Ryan or Charlie? They all seem short on the romance and the reality, don't they?
But our final story tonight has plenty of both: the romance of Adil (ph) and Salan (ph) and the reality of war breaking out right next-door.
Photographer David Turnley was a guest at their wedding, a Kurdish wedding.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Adil Turan (ph). I live in a village called Zuran (ph) in Turkey, near Iraq. I am 18 years old. Today is my wedding ceremony.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am 16. I met my husband for the first time one month ago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love my bride at first sight. We want to have two children and to live in peace. We are Kurdish people, born with our traditions and our own language. But we live under the Turkish flag.
My family's ancestors have been nomads. In our tradition, the groom's father asks the bride's father for permission for the son to take her hand in marriage. The bride's father asks for money, which will be used for things they'll need in the new home.
Money isn't important for us, but I want my children to be well educated, so that they can have good jobs.
We begin a three-day wedding ceremony. When she arrives, the groom's father offers a gift. As a nomad, I promised her a sheep. This is a tradition of our nomadic people.
You hear through the news that America has been bringing troops and weapons to the region for the last three months. We don't think they will return home until there has been a war. We take the bride and groom to the bedroom, where they will become a married couple. Her face is covered by a veil. When the groom removes her veil, we celebrate their being a husband and wife.
We don't want war. War will harm all of us. We have had a hard time surviving. We cannot also endure a war. We are especially afraid of chemical weapons. It will be a disaster. I dream for us to live happily together.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to live in happiness, for my family to live a nice life.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: That's the work and the photographs of David Turnley, who not for nothing won a Pulitzer.
It's good to have you with us. We'll see you tomorrow at 10:00.
Good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.
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Parliament Votes Against U.S. Troops Staging on Turkish Soil; North Korean MiGs Intercept RC-135 Surveillance Plane>
