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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Interview With Cardinal Theodore McCarrick

Aired March 05, 2003 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening again, everyone.
It's hard to find anything funny about the current state of affairs with Iraq, but we guess this will qualify. And I can't tell you how much it pains me to say this. The "L.A. Times" reported today that CBS News hired an actor using a fake Arabic accent to speak the translated words of Saddam Hussein in his interview last week with Dan Rather.

The guy's name is Steve Winfield (ph), and his particular skill seems to be faking foreign accents. Now CBS is a terrific news organization, and the network pointed out -- and no one disputes this -- that the translation was accurate. CBS hired three translators to make sure. But according to CBS, they wanted a voice that was compatible with the piece, hence Mr. Winfield's (ph) payday.

There is no great journalistic sin here that we can see. The accuracy of the words is what matters, of course. But goodness, there are people out there who spend their entire day, every day, looking for every "I" not dotted, every "T" not crossed, trying their hardest to trivialize serious work. Why give them any more ammunition?

On to the news of the day, in our own voice. We begin at the White House and the swirl of developments involving Iraq. Chris Burns with the duty again tonight. Chris, start us off with a headline.

CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRSEPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron. The White House is saying it is still optimistic it can push through another U.N. resolution despite veto threats from several countries. However, if you look at the meetings here, they are pointing to war.

BROWN: Chris, thank you.

The secretary of state played prosecutor once again today, pressing the case against Iraq. David Ensor looked at some of the evidence. So, David, your headline.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, this time Secretary Powell did not produce the spy satellite pictures and tapes of intercepted conversations. But he again cited additional evidence he says U.S. intelligence has showing Baghdad is still moving around its weapons of mass destruction to keep them away from the U.N. weapons inspectors. He said Iraq is playing a double game -- Aaron.

BROWN: David, thank you. The latest now from the United Nations, as the chief weapons inspector prepares to greet the Security Council on Friday. Richard Roth will be reporting that for us coming up in a little bit. And if Iraq weren't enough, Andrea Koppel has the latest on a dangerous situation involving North Korea. So, Andrea, give me a headline.

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Aaron. Good evening. On Capitol Hill today, Senate Democrats openly criticized the Bush administration for what they claim is a lack of policy on North Korea. Meanwhile, people who aren't usually openly critical, some within the Bush administration, long-time Korea watchers, are now privately voicing grave concern that the U.S. and North Korea may be heading towards a military conflict.

BROWN: Andrea, thank you.

And last stop is Houston. A conversation today with the man leading the investigation into the shuttle disaster. Miles O'Brien on that. Miles, a headline.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN SPACE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Admiral Hal Gayman (ph) says he's growing impatient with the progress of the investigation. We'll give you an exclusive peek inside that and look at the board at work. And we'll also tell you about some newly appointed board members, including one Sally Ride -- Aaron.

BROWN: Miles, thank you. Back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up tonight: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of Washington on the Vatican's opposition to the war with Iraq. A Vatican representative met with the president today.

Important decisions from the Supreme Court today involving two very different kinds of law; both controversial. Megan's law and three strikes and you're out. Bob Franken will report that in a little bit.

And scenes from the mall in "Segment 7" tonight. One guy who has created a small town roar with his push for peace. All of that and more in the hour ahead.

But we begin with the first tantalizing sign that some sort of compromise may be in the works regarding Iraq and the United Nations. There are reports tonight coming out of Britain that the government there is preparing to offer an amendment to the resolution that would give Iraq more time to disarm. These reports are very sketchy.

The British government will neither confirm nor deny them. It's not clear the Bush administration will go along. This comes on a day when both France and Russia suggested but did not flat out say that they would veto a Security Council resolution that would lead the way to a quick start of a war.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOMINIQUE DE VILLEPIN, FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): We will not accept a draft resolution which would authorize the use of force. So Russia and France, as permanent members of the Security Council, will take all of their responsibilities in this respect.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: The French statement was just one part of the equation the White House was dealing with today. For that, here's CNN's Chris Burns.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BURNS (voice-over): The Bush administration focuses on the final full court diplomatic press for a U.N. Security Council resolution authorizing war and seeks to downplay the chances it could be vetoed. After France, Germany and Russia jointly vowed not to allow passage of the resolution, the White House says those countries didn't use the "B" word.

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: There is a history of France and Russia not seeing this eye to eye with the United States. You're seeing that continue to varying degrees. I urge you not to leap to the conclusion that this is a matter that a veto will follow.

BURNS: Ahead of a report by chief U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix on Friday. The president is sending his top diplomat to New York for some high stakes lobbying, arguing Baghdad is only doing piecemeal disarmament with a wider strategy of manipulation.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Iraq's too little, too late gestures are meant not just to deceive and delay action by the international community. He has, as one of his major goals, to divide the international community, to split us into arguing factions. That effort must fail.

BURNS: At the White House, meetings on war and on peace. President Bush huddled with his National Security Council, including General Tommy Franks, head of the central command that will run the war machine against Iraq. Only a still picture was released of President Bush's meeting with papal envoy Pio Laghi. The envoy brought a letter from Pope John Paul II, who calls a war morally unjustified.

The White House says the president has made up his mind, at least on the morality of a war, that it would be immoral to leave Saddam with weapons of mass destruction.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BURNS: The White House, however, also sending out the message through Colin Powell that Saddam could avoid war if he immediately disarms. A couple points that I would like to make that we found out just a few minutes ago from the White House here that President Bush has continued lobbying by phone. He spoke earlier today for several minutes with President Musharraf of Pakistan, also with the President of Cameroon. These are two countries among those countries that the United States is trying to get to vote on the Security Council for that resolution -- Aaron.

BROWN: Chris, thank you. Chris Burns at the White House tonight.

Other messages being sent tonight as well. Some sort of crackdown appears to be underway. The U.S. government has given two members of Iraq's mission to the United Nations 72 hours to get out of the country. They're accused of activities outside their official duties; a description that usually means spying. And The Associated Press is reporting that this is part of an American effort to have 300 Iraqis it believes to be spies tossed out of embassies in 60 different countries around the world.

More now on the particulars of Secretary of State Powell's visit tomorrow. First, it ought to be said there are few people as impressive in person as General Powell. He is crisp, understated, authoritative. Many believe him to be the administration's most effective. Perhaps, in some respects, only effective spokesman in many parts of the world.

Now whether the world is still listening remains to be seen, but the secretary appears to be ready with new evidence and a warning not to be seduced by the appearance of cooperation from Iraq. He spoke today at a think tank in Washington. Here's CNN's David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR (voice-over): It lacked the drama of his multimedia presentation before the U.N. Security Council exactly a month earlier, but Secretary of State Powell again made use of what he said is new intelligence to argue the case against Iraq.

POWELL: For example, we know that in late January the Iraqi intelligence service transported chemical and biological agents to areas far away from Baghdad near the Syrian and Turkish borders in order to conceal them.

ENSOR: Powell said last month, as the U-2 surveillance plane flights for the U.N. arms inspectors were about to start, Iraq started moving banned materials once again.

POWELL: Iraq was transferring banned materials in old vehicles and placing them in poorer, working-class neighborhoods outside the capital.

ENSOR: And even as Iraq reluctantly destroys some of the Al Samoud 2 missiles under the order of Hans Blix of the U.N., Powell said U.S. intelligence has evidence that Iraq is playing a double game on that, too. Hiding some missiles and building more.

POWELL: It has, in fact, ordered the continued production of the missiles that you see being destroyed.

ENSOR: As for the interviews with scientists finally being conducted by arms inspectors...

POWELL: Iraqi officials have required scientists who have been invited to interviews with the inspectors to wear concealed recording devices. Hotels where the interviews are being conducted have been bugged.

ENSOR: In the month since Powell's speech to the U.N., U.S. surveillance satellites, eavesdropping equipment, and spies have continued to closely watch Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs.

(on camera): Even since Powell's U.N. speech, where he showed photos he said proved the Iraqis were conducting a shell game to fool the inspectors, U.S. intelligence officials say they have additional evidence the shell game is still underway. David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: With the final diplomatic push underway, so too are the final military preparations. Chris Burns touched on that a bit ago. We've been inching around the possible timing and tempo of a war for the last couple of weeks. Today we got a hint from Pentagon sources and straight from General Tommy Franks, the man in charge. Here's our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): (UNINTELLIGIBLE) his last White House meeting before going to war, U.S. central commander General Tommy Franks briefed President Bush and his national security team on plans for war without Turkey, which sources say has all been written out of the war plan.

GEN. TOMMY FRANKS, CENTRAL COMMAND COMMANDER: If the president of the United States decides to undertake action, we are in a position to provide a military option.

MCINTYRE: But Pentagon sources say the U.S. still needs a few more days to get the rest of the 101st airborne and its equipment in place in Kuwait. Forces from the 101st and the 82nd airborne will secure northern Iraq from the south, using assault helicopters and paratroops. And the U.S. needs to decide whether to move two aircraft carriers out of the eastern Mediterranean to the Red Sea so they can send planes over Saudi Arabia if Turkey doesn't grant over-flight rights.

But soon, sources say, the U.S. will issue a final public warning.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: If we arrive at that point, we'll have announcements that will make clear what our thoughts are.

MCINTYRE: Sources say the warning will be aimed at putting western journalists, U.N. inspectors, and others on notice that it's time to leave. And sources say reporters will be told it's unlikely they will be able to file their stories because the military's shock and awe strategy will use new tactics to shut down all power and communications.

Meanwhile, the U.S. continues to prepare the battlefield, taking advantage of two extra aircraft carriers in the Gulf to double and triple the number of no-fly zone patrols. Sources say more than 750 sorties are being flown each day. Meanwhile, General Tommy Franks will return to his headquarters in Qatar in a few days, sources say, to make the final preparations for attack.

(on camera): While the U.S. military still has some things it needs to move around, the biggest roadblock on the march to war is not logistical, it's political. Sources say as soon as the issue of a second U.N. resolution is resolved, the U.S. military will be ready to go. And that puts the likely window for war at some time around the middle of the month. Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: The president said this week for the first time that a military option may be used in dealing with North Korea. Until this week, the administration had resisted even calling the situation on the Korean peninsula a crisis. The North Korean government, which the CIA believes already has two nuclear bombs, is threatening to start making more. And day by day it seems to raise the ante in this odd little game of diplomatic chicken. Here's CNN's Andrea Koppel.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL (voice-over): As South Korean soldiers held annual training exercises, the U.S. deployed two long-range bombers to the Pacific island of Guam. The Bush administration insists the U.S. is still committed to diplomacy to diffuse the nuclear crisis with North Korea, but believes with the potential war with Iraq around the corner, deterrence is necessary.

RUMSFELD: It seems to me that it's appropriate for the United States to look around the globe and say, where might someone think of taking advantage of that situation with respect to Iraq.

KOPPEL: But critics on Capitol Hill and some long-time Korea watchers in the Bush administration itself say a standoff between the State Department and the Pentagon has paralyzed U.S. policy.

SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D-DE), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: We quite frankly have no policy now. There is no policy. I would not call it benign neglect, I would call it maligned neglect.

KOPPEL: Others are urging direct talks between the U.S. and Pyongyang soon, warning this crisis can only get worse.

SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MINORITY LEADER: In spite of the high stakes, the White House continues to sit back and watch, playing down the threat and apparently playing for time. But time is not on our side. KOPPEL: Just last weekend in a highly provocative move, four North Korean MiG fighter jets intercepted a U.S. surveillance plane in international air space. And last week, North Korea restarted a five- megawatt nuclear reactor capable of producing nuclear material within a year. But the biggest worry, everyone agrees, is that North Korea will begin to reprocess 8,000 spent plutonium fuel rods, which experts believe could produce as many as six bombs between now and summer.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL: And yet despite ominous signs, the North could begin reprocessing as very soon, in fact. Some fear once the U.S. is distracted with a possible war in Iraq, some administration officials say, Aaron, that the U.S., the Bush administration still does not have a definite plan for how it would respond -- Aaron.

BROWN: All right, Andrea. I want to get to Iraq in a second, but one quick one on North Korea. You talked about a -- or we heard about a split between the State Department and the Pentagon. What are the issues here? I mean, which side takes what?

KOPPEL: Well, Secretary of State Powell, in fact, had said shortly after that -- you remember Bill Richardson meeting with the North Korean diplomats -- that the U.S. would have direct talks with North Korea if only to repeat the fact that North Korea would have to dismantle entirely its nuclear programs. Apparently this is not something -- and forgive me, I think there's a fire alarm going on right now -- but this is not something that the White House, in particular, and the Pentagon wanted. They are taking a much tougher line than what Secretary Powell was proposing, and he had to step back.

BROWN: OK. Now do you have to run because it's a fire drill, or do I get one more question?

KOPPEL: It's just a test. I think we're OK.

BROWN: OK. Tell me what you've been able to learn about this possible British compromise proposal?

KOPPEL: Well, I want to let our viewers know I haven't spoken with any British diplomats, but I have spoken with U.S. officials who are very closely involved in the negotiations. And what I was told, Aaron, is that, look, the U.S. and the U.K. have been spending a lot of time talking with the U-6 (ph), the undecided six members in the Security Council whose votes are going to be critical if they're to get the nine votes to pass the resolution.

And during the course of those conversations, some of these governments have said that they have some ideas, some suggestions for tweaks in the language that can be made to the resolution to make it acceptable to their government. What I was told by one U.S. official is that the U.S. is kind of trying the language on for size. In some instances, I was told Secretary Powell and the British foreign secretary may be noodling around with some of the language, but there has been no decision made as to what proposal, if any, would be accepted.

BROWN: Andrea, nice job through it all there. Thank you. Andrea Koppel at the State Department in the midst of a fire drill.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, the opposition to the war. This time from the Vatican. We'll hear from Cardinal McCarrick of Washington, D.C., and why the pope believes war with Iraq is now, at least, morally unjustified.

And later, students out to protest the possible war. We'll talk with an MTV News correspondent about their concerns and his experiences overseas from New York. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: There are so many questions to ask in terms of Iraq. Should the United States go it alone? Which means without U.N. backing. Would it make the world safer? What would come after a war? It seems sometimes we run the risk of forgetting one of the most basic of questions, is it morally justified?

As we said earlier, the pope's envoy met with the president today to voice his opposition to the war with Iraq on moral grounds. And we should point out the Vatican did not object to the war with Afghanistan. So what exactly is the difference here?

We got the nuance of the Vatican argument today from Cardinal Theodore McCarrick of Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Cardinal, your colleague met with the president today and you met with Dr. Rice. You made the argument that war at this point is not moral. I'm sure they listened, do you think they heard?

CARDINAL THEODORE MCCARRICK, ARCHBISHOP OF WASHINGTON, D.C.: Well, I think they heard. My impression is that nobody really wants to go to war. I think the president doesn't want to go to war. I think he would love to find some way that he could avoid going to war, and that's what we're praying for. That the United States and the United Nations and all of us together can find a way to avoid the difficulty, the terrible tragedy of going to war.

That we can force Iraq and force Saddam Hussein to do what the United Nations has asked him to do. That's our hope and that's our prayer.

BROWN: It would seem to me that the -- well, all that may be true, and everyone may agree with that, that the administration is working on a timetable that is different from others who believe that more time would be beneficial. The president and the administration doesn't seem to believe that.

MCCARRICK: I think that's probably true. They have their own study of the situation that is different certainly from a number of our European allies. I can't get into that because I'm not that familiar with the strategies and the logistics of -- and the weather, which is supposed to be a question, too.

But it just seems to me, and to all the bishops, apparently very clearly to the Holy Father and Cardinal Laghi, his messenger, that they feel that we've got to continue trying. We've got to continue working, we've got to continue doing everything we possibly can that we have not yet exhausted all the opportunities to find peace.

BROWN: And when you say that -- I'm sorry. When you say that to Dr. Rice, for example, what does she say to you?

MCCARRICK: Well, she says -- she can, of course, speak for herself. But basically, she feels that they have been trying and that they have been working on this timetable. And that they're doing their very best to avoid conflict. But that -- I guess, if I'm understanding her reasoning from yesterday -- that they're coming to the stage now where they feel there is no longer any possibility to find another solution.

Although she did say to us yesterday there is still hope. And we always feel there's hope, and that's the most important thing we have is hope that there would be some way to resolve this, what is certainly a difficult situation. No one denies that. But there would be some way to resolve it without going to war.

BROWN: And what point, sir, is war a moral option? In this case, or even more broadly?

MCCARRICK: Well, war is a moral option if it is necessary to defend oneself or one's people. You can always -- if someone's coming at you with a knife, you can always defend yourself. And in the case of the government, if someone's coming after their people with a knife, they have an obligation to defend their people so that if the threat is real and proximate and absolute, then, of course, then it can be moral.

There are other considerations, of course. There are the consequences that are unforeseen or that are unintended, because that's what we worry about, too, in this precise possible conflict.

BROWN: Just quickly, did you have the feeling the decision had been made or pretty much made?

MCCARRICK: Well, no. I didn't. I think maybe pretty much made, but our meeting yesterday always gave me, and I think the other cardinals, the possible hope that, if things could change, that if something could come up in the last day that would make it possible for us to resolve this without war, I think that's what the Holy Father's hope is. And that's why he sent Cardinal Laghi over here. And I'm sure Cardinal Laghi said the same thing to the president.

BROWN: Cardinal, it's good to talk to you. We appreciate your time very much. I know there's a lot going on, and we thank you.

MCCARRICK: Thank you. It's good to be with you.

BROWN: Thank you, sir, very much. MCCARICK: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Washington's Cardinal McCarrick. We talked to him earlier today.

A quick check on a number of stories making news around the world today. Reprisals in full swing in the Middle East. Israeli helicopters fired a number of missiles into a refugee camp in Gaza, killing one, wounding another. Tanks rolled in as well. Sources inside the camp say the target was a member of Hamas. Whether he was killed, we do not yet know.

The raid followed a suicide bus bombing this afternoon in Haifa. Hamas taking responsibility for that. Fifteen people died, dozens more injured. The bus was packed with students from Haifa University when the bomber struck.

It was the first suicide bombing in Israel in two months. A period of intense Israeli military activity in both the West Bank and Gaza. Many casualties over the last couple months, including a pregnant woman and a child earlier this week.

Saddam Hussein called the order to destroy his missiles a ploy today. Not clear whether that means he'll stop destroying them. Iraqis have eliminated about 28 of the 100 or so Al Samoud missiles so far, including nine today.

Meanwhile, Iraqis paraded through the streets of Baghdad today. Thousands of policemen, firefighters, civil defense forces joined the march, and so did a platoon of people who say they would launch suicide attacks in the event of a foreign invasion.

And it isn't often that you see a public display of tensions within the Arab world. Today at a forum of the Islamic countries in Qatar, Kuwait's foreign minister called on Saddam Hussein to step down. That drew an angry response from the Iraqi minister. When another Kuwaiti tried to interrupt, the Iraqi said, "Shut up you monkey. Curse be upon your mustache, you trader."

Goodness. Al Jazeera was carrying it live in Qatar and Egypt. After the exchange, the Egyptian feed was cut. I guess the people of Qatar got to see the whole darn thing.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, important Supreme Court rulings today. And an exclusive interview with the man heading up the probe into the shuttle tragedy, Admiral Hal Gayman (ph). Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A couple of serious crime-and-punishment questions on the U.S. Supreme Court docket today, questions about whether certain states' sex-offender statutes and those so-called three-strike laws go too far. In both cases the answer was, no, they don't. Here's CNN's Bob Franken.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the first court test of the so-called Megan's laws that call for publicizing convicted sex offenders, the justices ruled 6-3 that, when states display the offenders' pictures on the Internet and require them to report to police several times a year, they are not unconstitutionally imposing additional punishment.

"The purpose and principal effect," wrote Justice Anthony Kennedy, "are to inform the public for its own safety, not to humiliate the offender." But Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg disagreed, saying that an offender faces "inescapable humiliation." The registry laws passed after 7-year-old Megan Kanka was kidnapped, rape and killed by her neighbor, a twice-convicted sex offender.

In another significant crime-and-punishment decision, the court rejected challenges to laws that are called three strikes and you're out. In 26 states, three-time losers go to prison for a long, long time. And by a 5-4 margin, the justices decided California's version, 25 years after the third felony conviction, did not violate the 8th Amendment prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment.

One of the men who appealed his sentence tried to steal nearly $1,200 worth of golf clubs on his third offense. The other took $153 worth of videotapes from a Kmart, normally a misdemeanor, but elevated to a felony because of his past crimes. Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, in her usual swing-vote role, joined the court's conservatives, saying that states had the right to make "a judgment that protecting the public safety requires incapacitating criminals who have already been convicted."

But Justice Stephen Breyer led the dissenters, writing, "The punishment is grossly disproportionate to the crime." However, the majority said it won't matter.

TOM GOLDSTEIN, SUPREME COURT APPELLATE ATTORNEY: When the states decide that something deserves a very severe punishment, the federal courts are not going to step in and put an end to it. And when the states decide they really want to put a Scarlet Letter A on somebody's forehead for an offense that they committed, that's all right, too.

FRANKEN (on camera): The statement from the majority, according to many experts, is that someone who wants to challenge his criminal punishment in the federal courts probably shouldn't bother.

Bob Franken, CNN, the Supreme Court.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Going on inside a hangar in Florida is a job that is one part painstaking and two parts heartbreaking: workers trying to put together a jigsaw puzzle out of the pieces of the shuttle Columbia. One investigator put it this way, "The data and the twisted metal are speaking to us and we're just developing the ears to hear." We'll know tomorrow what those ears have heard so far, when the Columbia Accident Investigation Board holds a public hearing in Houston. Today, we got a preview from the man heading that investigation up.

Reporting for us: Miles O'Brien.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN (voice-over): Thirty-one days after he first got the call that put him in charge of the Columbia accident investigation, Hal Gehman is growing impatient.

(on camera): Did you really expect to know it by now?

HAL GEHMAN, COLUMBIA INVESTIGATION CHAIRMAN: I expected to know more after 30 days than we do know.

O'BRIEN: And why don't we know more, do you think?

GEHMAN: Well, because it's a real puzzle. We don't have any good -- we don't have that golden nugget.

O'BRIEN (voice-over): The elusive golden nugget, that piece of debris that might unlock the deadly riddle of what happened to the shuttle, may lay somewhere in a remote canon in Nevada or Utah.

(on camera): Do you feel confident they're on the ground?

GEHMAN: Yes. We tracked them all the way to the ground.

To create issues, we try to frame things and they brainstorm.

O'BRIEN (voice-over): But Gehman and his 13-member board are not simply waiting for a lucky break. They're carefully assembling the pieces of the puzzle that they already have, generating a second-by- second timeline of the minutes before Columbia disintegrated, killing her crew of seven. They're certain the left wing failed, probably because more than one heat-shielding tile was damaged. They just don't know how.

GEHMAN: All six, all six, left main landing gear temperature and pressure sensors all failed at the same time.

O'BRIEN: In their ward of offices just outside the gates of the Johnson Space Center in Houston, the board and its staff of 50, some of the world's finest crash investigators, are still learning shuttle basics, while devising ways to test theories.

GEHMAN: These are the guys that are doing the telemetry, the debris analysis. And these are experts. These are metallurgical experts right now that are -- what we're tempting to do right now is decide what tests we're going to order NASA to do.

O'BRIEN: They will do some testing of their own as well, hiring a private firm to see what happens when foam strikes from the shuttle's external fuel tank strikes tiles at 500 miles an hour, as it did 82 seconds after the launch of Columbia.

Gehman is walking a tightrope between the need to remain independent of NASA while tapping its expertise.

GEHMAN: There is not a strong adversarial relationship either between us and NASA, nor is one brewing. They want to get to the bottom of this just as fast as we do.

O'BRIEN: But he freely admits, that could change as the board delves deeper into the way the shuttle program was managed.

GEHMAN: It is possible that it could get a little more less friendly when we get to that point, but I haven't seen it yet.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And that's Miles O'Brien reporting.

One more note from Miles' reporting today: The retired general tells him that Sally Ride, the first American (sic) to fly in space, would sit on the Columbia Accident Investigation Board. She would become one of three new members working on the task.

Still to come on NEWSNIGHT: explaining the war to a younger generation. We'll talk with Gideon Yago of MTV News about what his viewers are saying and seeing about a conflict with Iraq.

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And next on NEWSNIGHT: MTV goes to war with Gideon Yago.

He joins us after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Odd little mix of stories being e-mailed today.

Around the country and many parts of the world today, there were student protests against a possible war with Iraq. Organizers said they hoped these protests would dwarf the Vietnam era of walkouts. They were wrong. The walkouts ranged from a few dozen here to a few thousand there.

Covering the protest here today in New York for MTV was MTV News correspondent Gideon Yago, who also just returned from reporting in Kuwait for an upcoming MTV special. There he divided his time between American forces and young Kuwaitis who, of course, were at the mall.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GIDEON YAGO, MTV NEWS: On any given Thursday in the United States, you're probably going to work or going to school. But here in Kuwait City, it is the weekend. So we have decided to hit the streets and find out what the younger Kuwaiti citizens are doing with their free time.

Is this typically what you guys do when you hang out, just go shopping?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. That's what we do here in Kuwait.

YAGO: I guess so.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shopping, restaurants.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And Mr. Yago joins us now to talk about how the prospect of war in the Gulf is being seen by the MTV generation.

Nice to have you with us.

YAGO: Thanks, Aaron. Nice to be here.

BROWN: Talk for a minute about the polling that MTV has done, because it really is the foundation for a lot of what MTV News has decided to do.

YAGO: Well, absolutely.

We actually just conducted a poll in January. And this is really the first time where you have war as the No. 1 concern for our audience. Even a year ago, during 9/11, terrorism didn't supersede concerns like sex or drugs or things that immediately would wind up on their doorstep. And now that's changed. So, being MTV, our goal is pretty much to dial back into the audience and answer their needs.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: By and large -- not even by and large -- not to pull age on you here, but it's not like these guys are going to get drafted.

YAGO: No, it's not like these guys are going to get drafted.

But the military is still the No. 1 employer of people under 25. So the bulk on the grunts on the ground, the enlistees, are the age of typical MTV viewers, 19, 20 years old. And when you think about the fact that you are going to have a generation of veterans who are 18, 19, 20 years old, hypothetically, in a couple months, that, in and by itself, is an amazing story.

BROWN: Did you find -- do you find a big difference in the maturity level between the young men you find over in Kuwait -- I know you spent time with the Marines over there.

YAGO: Right. Yes, I did.

BROWN: And the young men and young women who hang out around MTV here in New York? YAGO: As in, are the Marines more mature

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: I didn't ask. I'll let you decide on the answer.

YAGO: I don't think that there really is all that much of a difference.

You were saying, just today, I was downstairs -- downstairs -- downtown in New York in Union Square and talking with very articulate, very informed high school students -- typical age of an MTV viewer -- just as there were very articulate, very informed Marines typically of the MTV audience age out on the Iraqi border.

BROWN: I was talking to a niece of mine over the weekend who is very much MTV generation. She's in college, but...

YAGO: Sure.

BROWN: And I found her strikingly cynical about government and about media.

YAGO: I think that's where we try and come in, is to punch holes in that cynicism and just simply inform.

We're not going to be the be-all and end-all of coverage or information. But what I think we try and do is put a human face on the headlines and approach it in a different way that will dispel that cynicism, that will dispel that apathy, that will get our audience to relate to what's going on in the world around them on a personal level. And, hopefully, if we pull that off right, you're going to get more informed younger American citizens.

BROWN: A terrific challenge.

Let's talk a bit about the young people you saw over in Kuwait.

YAGO: Sure.

BROWN: Marines mostly, right?

YAGO: Marines mostly and a lot of the young Kuwaitis. We sort of had this -- our job was to get a pulse of what it was like, get a picture of what it was like to live

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: And do you think they -- are they full of bravado?

YAGO: Yes, I'd say so. I'd say a lot of the young Marines that we talked to, I don't necessarily know if they have a very real concept of what they're about to face, because so many of them are combat virgins.

So, there is sort of a sense of -- they're calling it the Baghdad 500, like the Indianapolis 500. And I think there's a feeling that this is going to be over really quick, if it happens, and that they're going to be home in a couple months, because they're being told that the road home leads through Baghdad. So...

BROWN: You've actually spent a fair amount of time traveling. For a young guy, you've been out there. Tell me something you learned hanging out with these young men over in Kuwait, who are about, very likely, to go to war.

YAGO: I'd say what I probably learned is that there is an amazing story to be told about this generation, this echo to the Baby Boom that's about to come of age during these times. And that is going to be up to the reporters that are embedded with the Marines and the other armed forces from here on out to watch how these...

BROWN: Do you wish you were there, by the way? Would you like to be there?

YAGO: Yes, in a way. In a way, I do, because I think it's going to be pretty profound. I think it's going to define what people are sort of pegging as generation 9/11...

BROWN: Yes.

YAGO: ... or what is really just the echo to the Baby Boom and how they're going to come of age.

BROWN: Nice to meet you.

YAGO: Nice to meet you as well.

BROWN: Good luck. Thanks for coming here.

YAGO: Thank you very much.

BROWN: I'll hope you'll come again.

And the MTV broadcast is Monday night.

YAGO: Monday night.

BROWN: "Kuwait and Iraq." That's next Monday night. And it appears opposite this fine program.

I'll never do that again as long as I live.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT: the right to express yourself at the mall,

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Next on NEWSNIGHT: tomorrow morning's papers -- tomorrow morning's papers -- from around the country and around the world.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Time for tomorrow morning's papers, a quick look at papers from around the country and around the world.

Man, it is all Iraq all the time in tomorrow's papers, almost wherever you live. The "Chicago Sun-Times": "Nyet, Nein, Non!" That is as much foreign language as you'll get from me today, the lead in "The Chicago Sun-Times." But up at the top here: "Bob Greene's a Broken Man." Remember Bob Greene, the columnist at "The Chicago Tribune" who was fired over a little sexual thing? And "The Sun- Times" beats up on him anyway. Anyway, he gave an interview to "Esquire." And that's what that comes from.

"Miami Herald": "Ready for Peace, Ready for War."

Quickly. I'm going to go quickly here.

"The San Francisco Chronicle": "Mobilizing Against the Threat of War" is a major front-page story, but they also put the Supreme Court ruling on California's three-strikes law up there.

"Boston Herald": Tommy Franks is the picture. There he is. "Set For War" is the headline -- "Franks Tells Bush U.S. Military is Ready."

Now, this is a great and interesting story, at least to me. "The Moscow Times," the English-language paper -- because most of you don't read Russian -- the English-language paper in Moscow: "America Resorts to Economic Blackmail." And the story here is that the Americans have warned the Russians that they better be nice on this Iraq vote or they may not get into the World Trade Organization.

Show me the quickly the picture while I'm waiting for "The New York Times" to get here, OK? We just like this little kid. You see he's wearing his goggles backwards. OK.

We finally got ourselves the -- that's fine -- "The New York Times." And down at the bottom -- and I do mean the bottom here -- you'll never see this -- can you get that? "Clinton-Dole Again." Right there. See? Right where my fingering is covering it up. Bill Clinton and Bob Dole have signed up to do point/counterpoint on "60 Minutes" on CBS. We started the program talking about CBS. I guess we're going to end it, pretty nearly, doing that, too.

That's the morning papers. Appreciate "The Times." That's nice to have.

Up next on NEWSNIGHT: a trip to the mall and the question of whether you can speak or show your mind there.

This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Finally from us tonight: You wouldn't expect a shopping mall in Upstate New York to be the center of a free-speech debate, but that's exactly what's happened this week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do we want?

CROWD: Peace!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When do we want it?

CROWD: Now!

BROWN (voice-over): Not surprisingly, there were dozens of demonstrators at the Crossgates Mall outside Albany today, a sign of the times. And it was another sign of the times that got attorney Stephen Downs arrested at the mall on Monday night.

Security guards asked him to either take off his shirt, a T-shirt bearing the messages "Peace on Earth" and "Give Peace a Chance," or leave the mall. He refused to do either.

STEPHEN DOWNS, PROTESTER: This struck me as sort of a powerful way of expressing myself. And I wanted to do something peaceful.

ROGER DOWNS, PROTESTER: I'm impressed that he's refused to have his civil rights violated.

BROWN: Stephen Downs and his son Roger made the shirts at a store in the mall earlier in the day. They claim they weren't bothering any shoppers, but were merely eating at the food court when security approached.

S. DOWNS: The only person that I spoke to the whole time was somebody that came up to me right after I left the store and said: Wow, we really like your T-shirt. It's a great T-shirt. Where did you get it?

BROWN: The son agreed to take off his shirt, but Downs refused. And the police were called in.

S. DOWNS: Well, I was not inclined to take off my shirt or leave, so he would have to arrest me. And so he took out the handcuffs and put them on.

BROWN: A spokesperson for the mall said that security was responding to a complaint that the father-and-son pair were imposing their views on other shoppers.

The mall issued this statement today: "The existing rules of conduct at Crossgates Mall strictly prohibit loitering, disorderly or disruptive conduct, harassment, offensive language, fighting or any illegal activity." The owners also stress the mall is private property. A court date has been set for March 17, although the mall now says it no longer wants to pursue the legal charges.

In the meantime, the New York Civil Liberties Union has said it would help Downs, who pled innocent to charges of trespassing.

DONNA LIEBERMAN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NEW YORK CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION: The bottom line is, a guy is shopping at the mall. He buys a T-shirt. He puts it on and he gets arrested for it because the owner of the mall doesn't like the message give peace a chance. The owner is entitled to his position, but he operates in a mall that's open to the public. And when he gets into the business of excluding people and having them arrested based on the political viewpoint of the shopper, it raises serious concerns.

BROWN: Which is also a sign of the times.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And that's our report for tonight. We're back here tomorrow at 10:00 Eastern time. Hope you are, too.

I'm Aaron Brown in New York. Good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired March 5, 2003 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening again, everyone.
It's hard to find anything funny about the current state of affairs with Iraq, but we guess this will qualify. And I can't tell you how much it pains me to say this. The "L.A. Times" reported today that CBS News hired an actor using a fake Arabic accent to speak the translated words of Saddam Hussein in his interview last week with Dan Rather.

The guy's name is Steve Winfield (ph), and his particular skill seems to be faking foreign accents. Now CBS is a terrific news organization, and the network pointed out -- and no one disputes this -- that the translation was accurate. CBS hired three translators to make sure. But according to CBS, they wanted a voice that was compatible with the piece, hence Mr. Winfield's (ph) payday.

There is no great journalistic sin here that we can see. The accuracy of the words is what matters, of course. But goodness, there are people out there who spend their entire day, every day, looking for every "I" not dotted, every "T" not crossed, trying their hardest to trivialize serious work. Why give them any more ammunition?

On to the news of the day, in our own voice. We begin at the White House and the swirl of developments involving Iraq. Chris Burns with the duty again tonight. Chris, start us off with a headline.

CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRSEPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron. The White House is saying it is still optimistic it can push through another U.N. resolution despite veto threats from several countries. However, if you look at the meetings here, they are pointing to war.

BROWN: Chris, thank you.

The secretary of state played prosecutor once again today, pressing the case against Iraq. David Ensor looked at some of the evidence. So, David, your headline.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, this time Secretary Powell did not produce the spy satellite pictures and tapes of intercepted conversations. But he again cited additional evidence he says U.S. intelligence has showing Baghdad is still moving around its weapons of mass destruction to keep them away from the U.N. weapons inspectors. He said Iraq is playing a double game -- Aaron.

BROWN: David, thank you. The latest now from the United Nations, as the chief weapons inspector prepares to greet the Security Council on Friday. Richard Roth will be reporting that for us coming up in a little bit. And if Iraq weren't enough, Andrea Koppel has the latest on a dangerous situation involving North Korea. So, Andrea, give me a headline.

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Aaron. Good evening. On Capitol Hill today, Senate Democrats openly criticized the Bush administration for what they claim is a lack of policy on North Korea. Meanwhile, people who aren't usually openly critical, some within the Bush administration, long-time Korea watchers, are now privately voicing grave concern that the U.S. and North Korea may be heading towards a military conflict.

BROWN: Andrea, thank you.

And last stop is Houston. A conversation today with the man leading the investigation into the shuttle disaster. Miles O'Brien on that. Miles, a headline.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN SPACE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Admiral Hal Gayman (ph) says he's growing impatient with the progress of the investigation. We'll give you an exclusive peek inside that and look at the board at work. And we'll also tell you about some newly appointed board members, including one Sally Ride -- Aaron.

BROWN: Miles, thank you. Back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up tonight: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of Washington on the Vatican's opposition to the war with Iraq. A Vatican representative met with the president today.

Important decisions from the Supreme Court today involving two very different kinds of law; both controversial. Megan's law and three strikes and you're out. Bob Franken will report that in a little bit.

And scenes from the mall in "Segment 7" tonight. One guy who has created a small town roar with his push for peace. All of that and more in the hour ahead.

But we begin with the first tantalizing sign that some sort of compromise may be in the works regarding Iraq and the United Nations. There are reports tonight coming out of Britain that the government there is preparing to offer an amendment to the resolution that would give Iraq more time to disarm. These reports are very sketchy.

The British government will neither confirm nor deny them. It's not clear the Bush administration will go along. This comes on a day when both France and Russia suggested but did not flat out say that they would veto a Security Council resolution that would lead the way to a quick start of a war.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOMINIQUE DE VILLEPIN, FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): We will not accept a draft resolution which would authorize the use of force. So Russia and France, as permanent members of the Security Council, will take all of their responsibilities in this respect.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: The French statement was just one part of the equation the White House was dealing with today. For that, here's CNN's Chris Burns.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BURNS (voice-over): The Bush administration focuses on the final full court diplomatic press for a U.N. Security Council resolution authorizing war and seeks to downplay the chances it could be vetoed. After France, Germany and Russia jointly vowed not to allow passage of the resolution, the White House says those countries didn't use the "B" word.

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: There is a history of France and Russia not seeing this eye to eye with the United States. You're seeing that continue to varying degrees. I urge you not to leap to the conclusion that this is a matter that a veto will follow.

BURNS: Ahead of a report by chief U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix on Friday. The president is sending his top diplomat to New York for some high stakes lobbying, arguing Baghdad is only doing piecemeal disarmament with a wider strategy of manipulation.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Iraq's too little, too late gestures are meant not just to deceive and delay action by the international community. He has, as one of his major goals, to divide the international community, to split us into arguing factions. That effort must fail.

BURNS: At the White House, meetings on war and on peace. President Bush huddled with his National Security Council, including General Tommy Franks, head of the central command that will run the war machine against Iraq. Only a still picture was released of President Bush's meeting with papal envoy Pio Laghi. The envoy brought a letter from Pope John Paul II, who calls a war morally unjustified.

The White House says the president has made up his mind, at least on the morality of a war, that it would be immoral to leave Saddam with weapons of mass destruction.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BURNS: The White House, however, also sending out the message through Colin Powell that Saddam could avoid war if he immediately disarms. A couple points that I would like to make that we found out just a few minutes ago from the White House here that President Bush has continued lobbying by phone. He spoke earlier today for several minutes with President Musharraf of Pakistan, also with the President of Cameroon. These are two countries among those countries that the United States is trying to get to vote on the Security Council for that resolution -- Aaron.

BROWN: Chris, thank you. Chris Burns at the White House tonight.

Other messages being sent tonight as well. Some sort of crackdown appears to be underway. The U.S. government has given two members of Iraq's mission to the United Nations 72 hours to get out of the country. They're accused of activities outside their official duties; a description that usually means spying. And The Associated Press is reporting that this is part of an American effort to have 300 Iraqis it believes to be spies tossed out of embassies in 60 different countries around the world.

More now on the particulars of Secretary of State Powell's visit tomorrow. First, it ought to be said there are few people as impressive in person as General Powell. He is crisp, understated, authoritative. Many believe him to be the administration's most effective. Perhaps, in some respects, only effective spokesman in many parts of the world.

Now whether the world is still listening remains to be seen, but the secretary appears to be ready with new evidence and a warning not to be seduced by the appearance of cooperation from Iraq. He spoke today at a think tank in Washington. Here's CNN's David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR (voice-over): It lacked the drama of his multimedia presentation before the U.N. Security Council exactly a month earlier, but Secretary of State Powell again made use of what he said is new intelligence to argue the case against Iraq.

POWELL: For example, we know that in late January the Iraqi intelligence service transported chemical and biological agents to areas far away from Baghdad near the Syrian and Turkish borders in order to conceal them.

ENSOR: Powell said last month, as the U-2 surveillance plane flights for the U.N. arms inspectors were about to start, Iraq started moving banned materials once again.

POWELL: Iraq was transferring banned materials in old vehicles and placing them in poorer, working-class neighborhoods outside the capital.

ENSOR: And even as Iraq reluctantly destroys some of the Al Samoud 2 missiles under the order of Hans Blix of the U.N., Powell said U.S. intelligence has evidence that Iraq is playing a double game on that, too. Hiding some missiles and building more.

POWELL: It has, in fact, ordered the continued production of the missiles that you see being destroyed.

ENSOR: As for the interviews with scientists finally being conducted by arms inspectors...

POWELL: Iraqi officials have required scientists who have been invited to interviews with the inspectors to wear concealed recording devices. Hotels where the interviews are being conducted have been bugged.

ENSOR: In the month since Powell's speech to the U.N., U.S. surveillance satellites, eavesdropping equipment, and spies have continued to closely watch Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs.

(on camera): Even since Powell's U.N. speech, where he showed photos he said proved the Iraqis were conducting a shell game to fool the inspectors, U.S. intelligence officials say they have additional evidence the shell game is still underway. David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: With the final diplomatic push underway, so too are the final military preparations. Chris Burns touched on that a bit ago. We've been inching around the possible timing and tempo of a war for the last couple of weeks. Today we got a hint from Pentagon sources and straight from General Tommy Franks, the man in charge. Here's our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): (UNINTELLIGIBLE) his last White House meeting before going to war, U.S. central commander General Tommy Franks briefed President Bush and his national security team on plans for war without Turkey, which sources say has all been written out of the war plan.

GEN. TOMMY FRANKS, CENTRAL COMMAND COMMANDER: If the president of the United States decides to undertake action, we are in a position to provide a military option.

MCINTYRE: But Pentagon sources say the U.S. still needs a few more days to get the rest of the 101st airborne and its equipment in place in Kuwait. Forces from the 101st and the 82nd airborne will secure northern Iraq from the south, using assault helicopters and paratroops. And the U.S. needs to decide whether to move two aircraft carriers out of the eastern Mediterranean to the Red Sea so they can send planes over Saudi Arabia if Turkey doesn't grant over-flight rights.

But soon, sources say, the U.S. will issue a final public warning.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: If we arrive at that point, we'll have announcements that will make clear what our thoughts are.

MCINTYRE: Sources say the warning will be aimed at putting western journalists, U.N. inspectors, and others on notice that it's time to leave. And sources say reporters will be told it's unlikely they will be able to file their stories because the military's shock and awe strategy will use new tactics to shut down all power and communications.

Meanwhile, the U.S. continues to prepare the battlefield, taking advantage of two extra aircraft carriers in the Gulf to double and triple the number of no-fly zone patrols. Sources say more than 750 sorties are being flown each day. Meanwhile, General Tommy Franks will return to his headquarters in Qatar in a few days, sources say, to make the final preparations for attack.

(on camera): While the U.S. military still has some things it needs to move around, the biggest roadblock on the march to war is not logistical, it's political. Sources say as soon as the issue of a second U.N. resolution is resolved, the U.S. military will be ready to go. And that puts the likely window for war at some time around the middle of the month. Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: The president said this week for the first time that a military option may be used in dealing with North Korea. Until this week, the administration had resisted even calling the situation on the Korean peninsula a crisis. The North Korean government, which the CIA believes already has two nuclear bombs, is threatening to start making more. And day by day it seems to raise the ante in this odd little game of diplomatic chicken. Here's CNN's Andrea Koppel.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL (voice-over): As South Korean soldiers held annual training exercises, the U.S. deployed two long-range bombers to the Pacific island of Guam. The Bush administration insists the U.S. is still committed to diplomacy to diffuse the nuclear crisis with North Korea, but believes with the potential war with Iraq around the corner, deterrence is necessary.

RUMSFELD: It seems to me that it's appropriate for the United States to look around the globe and say, where might someone think of taking advantage of that situation with respect to Iraq.

KOPPEL: But critics on Capitol Hill and some long-time Korea watchers in the Bush administration itself say a standoff between the State Department and the Pentagon has paralyzed U.S. policy.

SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D-DE), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: We quite frankly have no policy now. There is no policy. I would not call it benign neglect, I would call it maligned neglect.

KOPPEL: Others are urging direct talks between the U.S. and Pyongyang soon, warning this crisis can only get worse.

SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MINORITY LEADER: In spite of the high stakes, the White House continues to sit back and watch, playing down the threat and apparently playing for time. But time is not on our side. KOPPEL: Just last weekend in a highly provocative move, four North Korean MiG fighter jets intercepted a U.S. surveillance plane in international air space. And last week, North Korea restarted a five- megawatt nuclear reactor capable of producing nuclear material within a year. But the biggest worry, everyone agrees, is that North Korea will begin to reprocess 8,000 spent plutonium fuel rods, which experts believe could produce as many as six bombs between now and summer.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL: And yet despite ominous signs, the North could begin reprocessing as very soon, in fact. Some fear once the U.S. is distracted with a possible war in Iraq, some administration officials say, Aaron, that the U.S., the Bush administration still does not have a definite plan for how it would respond -- Aaron.

BROWN: All right, Andrea. I want to get to Iraq in a second, but one quick one on North Korea. You talked about a -- or we heard about a split between the State Department and the Pentagon. What are the issues here? I mean, which side takes what?

KOPPEL: Well, Secretary of State Powell, in fact, had said shortly after that -- you remember Bill Richardson meeting with the North Korean diplomats -- that the U.S. would have direct talks with North Korea if only to repeat the fact that North Korea would have to dismantle entirely its nuclear programs. Apparently this is not something -- and forgive me, I think there's a fire alarm going on right now -- but this is not something that the White House, in particular, and the Pentagon wanted. They are taking a much tougher line than what Secretary Powell was proposing, and he had to step back.

BROWN: OK. Now do you have to run because it's a fire drill, or do I get one more question?

KOPPEL: It's just a test. I think we're OK.

BROWN: OK. Tell me what you've been able to learn about this possible British compromise proposal?

KOPPEL: Well, I want to let our viewers know I haven't spoken with any British diplomats, but I have spoken with U.S. officials who are very closely involved in the negotiations. And what I was told, Aaron, is that, look, the U.S. and the U.K. have been spending a lot of time talking with the U-6 (ph), the undecided six members in the Security Council whose votes are going to be critical if they're to get the nine votes to pass the resolution.

And during the course of those conversations, some of these governments have said that they have some ideas, some suggestions for tweaks in the language that can be made to the resolution to make it acceptable to their government. What I was told by one U.S. official is that the U.S. is kind of trying the language on for size. In some instances, I was told Secretary Powell and the British foreign secretary may be noodling around with some of the language, but there has been no decision made as to what proposal, if any, would be accepted.

BROWN: Andrea, nice job through it all there. Thank you. Andrea Koppel at the State Department in the midst of a fire drill.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, the opposition to the war. This time from the Vatican. We'll hear from Cardinal McCarrick of Washington, D.C., and why the pope believes war with Iraq is now, at least, morally unjustified.

And later, students out to protest the possible war. We'll talk with an MTV News correspondent about their concerns and his experiences overseas from New York. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: There are so many questions to ask in terms of Iraq. Should the United States go it alone? Which means without U.N. backing. Would it make the world safer? What would come after a war? It seems sometimes we run the risk of forgetting one of the most basic of questions, is it morally justified?

As we said earlier, the pope's envoy met with the president today to voice his opposition to the war with Iraq on moral grounds. And we should point out the Vatican did not object to the war with Afghanistan. So what exactly is the difference here?

We got the nuance of the Vatican argument today from Cardinal Theodore McCarrick of Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Cardinal, your colleague met with the president today and you met with Dr. Rice. You made the argument that war at this point is not moral. I'm sure they listened, do you think they heard?

CARDINAL THEODORE MCCARRICK, ARCHBISHOP OF WASHINGTON, D.C.: Well, I think they heard. My impression is that nobody really wants to go to war. I think the president doesn't want to go to war. I think he would love to find some way that he could avoid going to war, and that's what we're praying for. That the United States and the United Nations and all of us together can find a way to avoid the difficulty, the terrible tragedy of going to war.

That we can force Iraq and force Saddam Hussein to do what the United Nations has asked him to do. That's our hope and that's our prayer.

BROWN: It would seem to me that the -- well, all that may be true, and everyone may agree with that, that the administration is working on a timetable that is different from others who believe that more time would be beneficial. The president and the administration doesn't seem to believe that.

MCCARRICK: I think that's probably true. They have their own study of the situation that is different certainly from a number of our European allies. I can't get into that because I'm not that familiar with the strategies and the logistics of -- and the weather, which is supposed to be a question, too.

But it just seems to me, and to all the bishops, apparently very clearly to the Holy Father and Cardinal Laghi, his messenger, that they feel that we've got to continue trying. We've got to continue working, we've got to continue doing everything we possibly can that we have not yet exhausted all the opportunities to find peace.

BROWN: And when you say that -- I'm sorry. When you say that to Dr. Rice, for example, what does she say to you?

MCCARRICK: Well, she says -- she can, of course, speak for herself. But basically, she feels that they have been trying and that they have been working on this timetable. And that they're doing their very best to avoid conflict. But that -- I guess, if I'm understanding her reasoning from yesterday -- that they're coming to the stage now where they feel there is no longer any possibility to find another solution.

Although she did say to us yesterday there is still hope. And we always feel there's hope, and that's the most important thing we have is hope that there would be some way to resolve this, what is certainly a difficult situation. No one denies that. But there would be some way to resolve it without going to war.

BROWN: And what point, sir, is war a moral option? In this case, or even more broadly?

MCCARRICK: Well, war is a moral option if it is necessary to defend oneself or one's people. You can always -- if someone's coming at you with a knife, you can always defend yourself. And in the case of the government, if someone's coming after their people with a knife, they have an obligation to defend their people so that if the threat is real and proximate and absolute, then, of course, then it can be moral.

There are other considerations, of course. There are the consequences that are unforeseen or that are unintended, because that's what we worry about, too, in this precise possible conflict.

BROWN: Just quickly, did you have the feeling the decision had been made or pretty much made?

MCCARRICK: Well, no. I didn't. I think maybe pretty much made, but our meeting yesterday always gave me, and I think the other cardinals, the possible hope that, if things could change, that if something could come up in the last day that would make it possible for us to resolve this without war, I think that's what the Holy Father's hope is. And that's why he sent Cardinal Laghi over here. And I'm sure Cardinal Laghi said the same thing to the president.

BROWN: Cardinal, it's good to talk to you. We appreciate your time very much. I know there's a lot going on, and we thank you.

MCCARRICK: Thank you. It's good to be with you.

BROWN: Thank you, sir, very much. MCCARICK: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Washington's Cardinal McCarrick. We talked to him earlier today.

A quick check on a number of stories making news around the world today. Reprisals in full swing in the Middle East. Israeli helicopters fired a number of missiles into a refugee camp in Gaza, killing one, wounding another. Tanks rolled in as well. Sources inside the camp say the target was a member of Hamas. Whether he was killed, we do not yet know.

The raid followed a suicide bus bombing this afternoon in Haifa. Hamas taking responsibility for that. Fifteen people died, dozens more injured. The bus was packed with students from Haifa University when the bomber struck.

It was the first suicide bombing in Israel in two months. A period of intense Israeli military activity in both the West Bank and Gaza. Many casualties over the last couple months, including a pregnant woman and a child earlier this week.

Saddam Hussein called the order to destroy his missiles a ploy today. Not clear whether that means he'll stop destroying them. Iraqis have eliminated about 28 of the 100 or so Al Samoud missiles so far, including nine today.

Meanwhile, Iraqis paraded through the streets of Baghdad today. Thousands of policemen, firefighters, civil defense forces joined the march, and so did a platoon of people who say they would launch suicide attacks in the event of a foreign invasion.

And it isn't often that you see a public display of tensions within the Arab world. Today at a forum of the Islamic countries in Qatar, Kuwait's foreign minister called on Saddam Hussein to step down. That drew an angry response from the Iraqi minister. When another Kuwaiti tried to interrupt, the Iraqi said, "Shut up you monkey. Curse be upon your mustache, you trader."

Goodness. Al Jazeera was carrying it live in Qatar and Egypt. After the exchange, the Egyptian feed was cut. I guess the people of Qatar got to see the whole darn thing.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, important Supreme Court rulings today. And an exclusive interview with the man heading up the probe into the shuttle tragedy, Admiral Hal Gayman (ph). Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A couple of serious crime-and-punishment questions on the U.S. Supreme Court docket today, questions about whether certain states' sex-offender statutes and those so-called three-strike laws go too far. In both cases the answer was, no, they don't. Here's CNN's Bob Franken.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the first court test of the so-called Megan's laws that call for publicizing convicted sex offenders, the justices ruled 6-3 that, when states display the offenders' pictures on the Internet and require them to report to police several times a year, they are not unconstitutionally imposing additional punishment.

"The purpose and principal effect," wrote Justice Anthony Kennedy, "are to inform the public for its own safety, not to humiliate the offender." But Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg disagreed, saying that an offender faces "inescapable humiliation." The registry laws passed after 7-year-old Megan Kanka was kidnapped, rape and killed by her neighbor, a twice-convicted sex offender.

In another significant crime-and-punishment decision, the court rejected challenges to laws that are called three strikes and you're out. In 26 states, three-time losers go to prison for a long, long time. And by a 5-4 margin, the justices decided California's version, 25 years after the third felony conviction, did not violate the 8th Amendment prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment.

One of the men who appealed his sentence tried to steal nearly $1,200 worth of golf clubs on his third offense. The other took $153 worth of videotapes from a Kmart, normally a misdemeanor, but elevated to a felony because of his past crimes. Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, in her usual swing-vote role, joined the court's conservatives, saying that states had the right to make "a judgment that protecting the public safety requires incapacitating criminals who have already been convicted."

But Justice Stephen Breyer led the dissenters, writing, "The punishment is grossly disproportionate to the crime." However, the majority said it won't matter.

TOM GOLDSTEIN, SUPREME COURT APPELLATE ATTORNEY: When the states decide that something deserves a very severe punishment, the federal courts are not going to step in and put an end to it. And when the states decide they really want to put a Scarlet Letter A on somebody's forehead for an offense that they committed, that's all right, too.

FRANKEN (on camera): The statement from the majority, according to many experts, is that someone who wants to challenge his criminal punishment in the federal courts probably shouldn't bother.

Bob Franken, CNN, the Supreme Court.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Going on inside a hangar in Florida is a job that is one part painstaking and two parts heartbreaking: workers trying to put together a jigsaw puzzle out of the pieces of the shuttle Columbia. One investigator put it this way, "The data and the twisted metal are speaking to us and we're just developing the ears to hear." We'll know tomorrow what those ears have heard so far, when the Columbia Accident Investigation Board holds a public hearing in Houston. Today, we got a preview from the man heading that investigation up.

Reporting for us: Miles O'Brien.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN (voice-over): Thirty-one days after he first got the call that put him in charge of the Columbia accident investigation, Hal Gehman is growing impatient.

(on camera): Did you really expect to know it by now?

HAL GEHMAN, COLUMBIA INVESTIGATION CHAIRMAN: I expected to know more after 30 days than we do know.

O'BRIEN: And why don't we know more, do you think?

GEHMAN: Well, because it's a real puzzle. We don't have any good -- we don't have that golden nugget.

O'BRIEN (voice-over): The elusive golden nugget, that piece of debris that might unlock the deadly riddle of what happened to the shuttle, may lay somewhere in a remote canon in Nevada or Utah.

(on camera): Do you feel confident they're on the ground?

GEHMAN: Yes. We tracked them all the way to the ground.

To create issues, we try to frame things and they brainstorm.

O'BRIEN (voice-over): But Gehman and his 13-member board are not simply waiting for a lucky break. They're carefully assembling the pieces of the puzzle that they already have, generating a second-by- second timeline of the minutes before Columbia disintegrated, killing her crew of seven. They're certain the left wing failed, probably because more than one heat-shielding tile was damaged. They just don't know how.

GEHMAN: All six, all six, left main landing gear temperature and pressure sensors all failed at the same time.

O'BRIEN: In their ward of offices just outside the gates of the Johnson Space Center in Houston, the board and its staff of 50, some of the world's finest crash investigators, are still learning shuttle basics, while devising ways to test theories.

GEHMAN: These are the guys that are doing the telemetry, the debris analysis. And these are experts. These are metallurgical experts right now that are -- what we're tempting to do right now is decide what tests we're going to order NASA to do.

O'BRIEN: They will do some testing of their own as well, hiring a private firm to see what happens when foam strikes from the shuttle's external fuel tank strikes tiles at 500 miles an hour, as it did 82 seconds after the launch of Columbia.

Gehman is walking a tightrope between the need to remain independent of NASA while tapping its expertise.

GEHMAN: There is not a strong adversarial relationship either between us and NASA, nor is one brewing. They want to get to the bottom of this just as fast as we do.

O'BRIEN: But he freely admits, that could change as the board delves deeper into the way the shuttle program was managed.

GEHMAN: It is possible that it could get a little more less friendly when we get to that point, but I haven't seen it yet.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And that's Miles O'Brien reporting.

One more note from Miles' reporting today: The retired general tells him that Sally Ride, the first American (sic) to fly in space, would sit on the Columbia Accident Investigation Board. She would become one of three new members working on the task.

Still to come on NEWSNIGHT: explaining the war to a younger generation. We'll talk with Gideon Yago of MTV News about what his viewers are saying and seeing about a conflict with Iraq.

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And next on NEWSNIGHT: MTV goes to war with Gideon Yago.

He joins us after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Odd little mix of stories being e-mailed today.

Around the country and many parts of the world today, there were student protests against a possible war with Iraq. Organizers said they hoped these protests would dwarf the Vietnam era of walkouts. They were wrong. The walkouts ranged from a few dozen here to a few thousand there.

Covering the protest here today in New York for MTV was MTV News correspondent Gideon Yago, who also just returned from reporting in Kuwait for an upcoming MTV special. There he divided his time between American forces and young Kuwaitis who, of course, were at the mall.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GIDEON YAGO, MTV NEWS: On any given Thursday in the United States, you're probably going to work or going to school. But here in Kuwait City, it is the weekend. So we have decided to hit the streets and find out what the younger Kuwaiti citizens are doing with their free time.

Is this typically what you guys do when you hang out, just go shopping?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. That's what we do here in Kuwait.

YAGO: I guess so.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shopping, restaurants.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And Mr. Yago joins us now to talk about how the prospect of war in the Gulf is being seen by the MTV generation.

Nice to have you with us.

YAGO: Thanks, Aaron. Nice to be here.

BROWN: Talk for a minute about the polling that MTV has done, because it really is the foundation for a lot of what MTV News has decided to do.

YAGO: Well, absolutely.

We actually just conducted a poll in January. And this is really the first time where you have war as the No. 1 concern for our audience. Even a year ago, during 9/11, terrorism didn't supersede concerns like sex or drugs or things that immediately would wind up on their doorstep. And now that's changed. So, being MTV, our goal is pretty much to dial back into the audience and answer their needs.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: By and large -- not even by and large -- not to pull age on you here, but it's not like these guys are going to get drafted.

YAGO: No, it's not like these guys are going to get drafted.

But the military is still the No. 1 employer of people under 25. So the bulk on the grunts on the ground, the enlistees, are the age of typical MTV viewers, 19, 20 years old. And when you think about the fact that you are going to have a generation of veterans who are 18, 19, 20 years old, hypothetically, in a couple months, that, in and by itself, is an amazing story.

BROWN: Did you find -- do you find a big difference in the maturity level between the young men you find over in Kuwait -- I know you spent time with the Marines over there.

YAGO: Right. Yes, I did.

BROWN: And the young men and young women who hang out around MTV here in New York? YAGO: As in, are the Marines more mature

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: I didn't ask. I'll let you decide on the answer.

YAGO: I don't think that there really is all that much of a difference.

You were saying, just today, I was downstairs -- downstairs -- downtown in New York in Union Square and talking with very articulate, very informed high school students -- typical age of an MTV viewer -- just as there were very articulate, very informed Marines typically of the MTV audience age out on the Iraqi border.

BROWN: I was talking to a niece of mine over the weekend who is very much MTV generation. She's in college, but...

YAGO: Sure.

BROWN: And I found her strikingly cynical about government and about media.

YAGO: I think that's where we try and come in, is to punch holes in that cynicism and just simply inform.

We're not going to be the be-all and end-all of coverage or information. But what I think we try and do is put a human face on the headlines and approach it in a different way that will dispel that cynicism, that will dispel that apathy, that will get our audience to relate to what's going on in the world around them on a personal level. And, hopefully, if we pull that off right, you're going to get more informed younger American citizens.

BROWN: A terrific challenge.

Let's talk a bit about the young people you saw over in Kuwait.

YAGO: Sure.

BROWN: Marines mostly, right?

YAGO: Marines mostly and a lot of the young Kuwaitis. We sort of had this -- our job was to get a pulse of what it was like, get a picture of what it was like to live

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: And do you think they -- are they full of bravado?

YAGO: Yes, I'd say so. I'd say a lot of the young Marines that we talked to, I don't necessarily know if they have a very real concept of what they're about to face, because so many of them are combat virgins.

So, there is sort of a sense of -- they're calling it the Baghdad 500, like the Indianapolis 500. And I think there's a feeling that this is going to be over really quick, if it happens, and that they're going to be home in a couple months, because they're being told that the road home leads through Baghdad. So...

BROWN: You've actually spent a fair amount of time traveling. For a young guy, you've been out there. Tell me something you learned hanging out with these young men over in Kuwait, who are about, very likely, to go to war.

YAGO: I'd say what I probably learned is that there is an amazing story to be told about this generation, this echo to the Baby Boom that's about to come of age during these times. And that is going to be up to the reporters that are embedded with the Marines and the other armed forces from here on out to watch how these...

BROWN: Do you wish you were there, by the way? Would you like to be there?

YAGO: Yes, in a way. In a way, I do, because I think it's going to be pretty profound. I think it's going to define what people are sort of pegging as generation 9/11...

BROWN: Yes.

YAGO: ... or what is really just the echo to the Baby Boom and how they're going to come of age.

BROWN: Nice to meet you.

YAGO: Nice to meet you as well.

BROWN: Good luck. Thanks for coming here.

YAGO: Thank you very much.

BROWN: I'll hope you'll come again.

And the MTV broadcast is Monday night.

YAGO: Monday night.

BROWN: "Kuwait and Iraq." That's next Monday night. And it appears opposite this fine program.

I'll never do that again as long as I live.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT: the right to express yourself at the mall,

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Next on NEWSNIGHT: tomorrow morning's papers -- tomorrow morning's papers -- from around the country and around the world.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Time for tomorrow morning's papers, a quick look at papers from around the country and around the world.

Man, it is all Iraq all the time in tomorrow's papers, almost wherever you live. The "Chicago Sun-Times": "Nyet, Nein, Non!" That is as much foreign language as you'll get from me today, the lead in "The Chicago Sun-Times." But up at the top here: "Bob Greene's a Broken Man." Remember Bob Greene, the columnist at "The Chicago Tribune" who was fired over a little sexual thing? And "The Sun- Times" beats up on him anyway. Anyway, he gave an interview to "Esquire." And that's what that comes from.

"Miami Herald": "Ready for Peace, Ready for War."

Quickly. I'm going to go quickly here.

"The San Francisco Chronicle": "Mobilizing Against the Threat of War" is a major front-page story, but they also put the Supreme Court ruling on California's three-strikes law up there.

"Boston Herald": Tommy Franks is the picture. There he is. "Set For War" is the headline -- "Franks Tells Bush U.S. Military is Ready."

Now, this is a great and interesting story, at least to me. "The Moscow Times," the English-language paper -- because most of you don't read Russian -- the English-language paper in Moscow: "America Resorts to Economic Blackmail." And the story here is that the Americans have warned the Russians that they better be nice on this Iraq vote or they may not get into the World Trade Organization.

Show me the quickly the picture while I'm waiting for "The New York Times" to get here, OK? We just like this little kid. You see he's wearing his goggles backwards. OK.

We finally got ourselves the -- that's fine -- "The New York Times." And down at the bottom -- and I do mean the bottom here -- you'll never see this -- can you get that? "Clinton-Dole Again." Right there. See? Right where my fingering is covering it up. Bill Clinton and Bob Dole have signed up to do point/counterpoint on "60 Minutes" on CBS. We started the program talking about CBS. I guess we're going to end it, pretty nearly, doing that, too.

That's the morning papers. Appreciate "The Times." That's nice to have.

Up next on NEWSNIGHT: a trip to the mall and the question of whether you can speak or show your mind there.

This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Finally from us tonight: You wouldn't expect a shopping mall in Upstate New York to be the center of a free-speech debate, but that's exactly what's happened this week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do we want?

CROWD: Peace!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When do we want it?

CROWD: Now!

BROWN (voice-over): Not surprisingly, there were dozens of demonstrators at the Crossgates Mall outside Albany today, a sign of the times. And it was another sign of the times that got attorney Stephen Downs arrested at the mall on Monday night.

Security guards asked him to either take off his shirt, a T-shirt bearing the messages "Peace on Earth" and "Give Peace a Chance," or leave the mall. He refused to do either.

STEPHEN DOWNS, PROTESTER: This struck me as sort of a powerful way of expressing myself. And I wanted to do something peaceful.

ROGER DOWNS, PROTESTER: I'm impressed that he's refused to have his civil rights violated.

BROWN: Stephen Downs and his son Roger made the shirts at a store in the mall earlier in the day. They claim they weren't bothering any shoppers, but were merely eating at the food court when security approached.

S. DOWNS: The only person that I spoke to the whole time was somebody that came up to me right after I left the store and said: Wow, we really like your T-shirt. It's a great T-shirt. Where did you get it?

BROWN: The son agreed to take off his shirt, but Downs refused. And the police were called in.

S. DOWNS: Well, I was not inclined to take off my shirt or leave, so he would have to arrest me. And so he took out the handcuffs and put them on.

BROWN: A spokesperson for the mall said that security was responding to a complaint that the father-and-son pair were imposing their views on other shoppers.

The mall issued this statement today: "The existing rules of conduct at Crossgates Mall strictly prohibit loitering, disorderly or disruptive conduct, harassment, offensive language, fighting or any illegal activity." The owners also stress the mall is private property. A court date has been set for March 17, although the mall now says it no longer wants to pursue the legal charges.

In the meantime, the New York Civil Liberties Union has said it would help Downs, who pled innocent to charges of trespassing.

DONNA LIEBERMAN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NEW YORK CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION: The bottom line is, a guy is shopping at the mall. He buys a T-shirt. He puts it on and he gets arrested for it because the owner of the mall doesn't like the message give peace a chance. The owner is entitled to his position, but he operates in a mall that's open to the public. And when he gets into the business of excluding people and having them arrested based on the political viewpoint of the shopper, it raises serious concerns.

BROWN: Which is also a sign of the times.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And that's our report for tonight. We're back here tomorrow at 10:00 Eastern time. Hope you are, too.

I'm Aaron Brown in New York. Good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

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